I Interviewed the most HATED man in the Sonic Fandom
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- Опубликовано: 9 фев 2025
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How did an advertisement for a Japanese video game turn into one of the biggest, most controversial American comics of all time?
Read some Sonic:
IDW Hardcover Vol 1 - amzn.to/3x6YcPi
IDW Hardcover Vol 2 - amzn.to/3Xfsw5a
IDW Hardcover Vol 3 - amzn.to/3yQs6YR
IDW Hardcover Vol 4 - amzn.to/3VcbxxJ
OR
IDW Paperback Vol 1 - amzn.to/3V6bSlu
IDW Paperback Vol 2 - amzn.to/3Vbn7cB
IDW Paperback Vol 3 - amzn.to/4aR54hF
(continues to volume 16)
Preorder Ken Penders’ The Lara-Su Chronicles: Beginnings
kenpenders.com...
Read Karl Bollers work:
Watson and Holmes: amzn.to/4aMCHkE
Akogun: Brutalizer of Gods: amzn.to/3yRuP4a
Subscribe to these guys:
/ @comicdrake
/ @ayakuweb
Dive Deeper into Penders Lore:
/ thankskenpenders
Follow:
Ian Flynn
Website: www.BumbleKing.com
Twitter: @IanFlynnBKC
BlueSky: @IanFlynnBKC.bsky.social
RUclips: / bumblekingvideos
Ken Penders
/ kenpenders
Full Corrections, Sources & Notes:
pastebin.com/w...
Credits:
Edit and Animation: Rádi
Photo of Paul Castiglia by Luigi Novi
Special Thanks: Comic Drake, Ayaku Web, my brother Jake
Everything else: matttt
Shortly after I posted the video, Ken Penders contacted me his thoughts on it. With his permission, I'm posting them below verbatim:
Matt,
I appreciate the video.
If I do take issue with anything, is that you make it sound like I’ve been bitter the whole time since I left the book or that Karl and I have been mad with each other all this time. Did Karl & I have differences during the run of M25YL? Absolutely. I also don’t recall banning him from my message board. If he made that claim, I take responsibility as I had a Web Administrator who monitored my message board. From my perspective, Karl and I cleared the air between us during a meeting in NYC when my legal battle was going on and I asked if he would be willing to submit an affidavit, which he did. We’ve encountered each other over the years since at conventions and I recall each encounter as a pleasant experience. Karl & shared similar experiences while at Archie and I’d liken that to the experiences I shared with guys I served with while in the military.
What I disliked most of all is how you ended things, with Ian continuing on SONIC, and Karl on continuing to work on comics for major publishers while I just released THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES as an afterthought. What you failed to mention - and that I’ve been very public with - is that the book contains every MOBIUS: 25 YEARS LATER chapter that was originally published in SONIC issues 131 thru 144, establishing my right to reprint the works I had a hand in creating. (As for the other creators, my business dealings with them are private and will remain so.) Your comment that I didn’t have the right to reprint my stories ignores several facets of the copyright battle despite the legal assistance you had.
Beyond Ian, I also helped launch the career of artist Dawn Best and encouraged other fans beyond Ian, including Jonathan Gray, who also posted on my website and I invited to share my table space in Artist Alley during one Comic-Con back in the early aughts.
One omission that bothered me was not mentioning how I was the only creator who had a hand in every aspect of the book beyond just the writing. Neither Karl or Ian ever illustrated a story for any SONIC comic. The biggest difference between my scripts and Ian & Karl’s was that every script I created prior to ENDGAME also included unpaid, uncredited layouts which the artists used as the basis of their work. The final pencils resembled my layouts to such a degree that the US Copyright Office considered me a legal co-creator of the art as well as the story when they compared samples of my layouts to the finished pencils. Also, not only did Archie not respond to the US Copyright Office over my claims, but neither did SEGA, who received the same letter the US Copyright Office sent out to Archie. Had their lawyers challenged my claim, that would’ve made my battle easier as they would also have to prove a transfer of ownership of which they had no documents to cover.
Copyrights are still the Wild West, and when it comes to comics, especially so. The main problem is that companies settle. Work-for-hire is not the hill they wish to die on. Not even Disney. When Ruth Bader Ginsburg decided to hear the Marvel v Kirby case, that’s when Disney folded. They did not want to open Pandora’s box despite their army of lawyers. Same with Warner Bros when it came to the Seigel / Superman case. They ended up spending $30 million dollars only to end up with the resolution DC Comics originally negotiated with the Seigel estate. To date, no one has ever asked why SEGA didn’t go after Archie for the loss of an asset that took 25 years to create. While you did a great job of research throughout, I was amazed you missed the court transcript posted on the BleedingCool.com website which revealed the real reason why SEGA eventually took SONIC away from Archie. During the legal battle, Archie was on the hook to pay for all of SEGA’s legal costs. When it came time to renew the license in 2017, Archie looked at the revenue they were getting from Warner Bros and Netflix for RIVERDALE and SABRINA and decided SONIC wasn’t worth indemnifying SEGA from any and all future legal costs.
Since the legal battle, I’ve been more concerned over my personal life and relationships. My better half, Bernadette, who went through the legal battle with me, hated the thought of me doing work-for-hire, which I was in complete agreement with. We’ve seen 3 children grow up and graduate from college. 2 own their own homes with Steve married and the father of 3 beautiful children of his own. My work in advertising is mentioned in the book COMICS MAD MEN, in which I was a designer for the Motorola Razor ad campaign.
I’m also sought out for commissions from SONIC fans the world over. THE LARA-SU CHRONICLES: BEGINNINGS was able to go forward to print and eventual release because of Sonic fans pre-ordering the book. As I write this, the cargo ship carrying the copies of my book is scheduled to dock at the Port of Los Angeles with eventual arrival at the warehouse they will be stored at on June 15. Copies are tentatively scheduled to begin shipping to those who pre-ordered starting June 17, going to readers in almost all 50 states as well as 7 countries on 3 continents. (I’ve just been asked to add Ireland to the list of countries I ship to.)
Since the legal battle, I’ve also been overseeing a film I directed through post-production. It would've already been released but technology has improved to the point where I’m now upresing the film for 4K monitors.
Do I take pride in what I do? Guilty as charged. But if one doesn’t ring one’s bell, will anyone notice?
I actually liked your Penders & Flynn comment. However, after my experience making a film, it’s only reinforced my attitude to work on projects where I make the decisions.
You have to understand I’ve come to accept my association with Sonic is lifelong and beyond my control. When I stopped submitting stories to Archie, I was still working with SEGA on a potential Sonic film. Not just with SOA, but also with SOJ. I have the documentation to show for those efforts. I broke bread with SOJ executives when we met in Hollywood long before Ian dealt with them. (I even sold original art to Sonic Team members at a Comic-Con, including the original art to the cover of SONIC issue 98 - the SONIC ADVENTURE 2 adaptation - which I also inked.)
When the film project died on the vine, it was due to SEGA corporate upheaval. Even though Robert Leffler had passed, SOA President Rob Lightner was still willing to go forward until other executives decided getting into bed with Marvel was more important at the time. There could've been a KNUCKLES film based on my comics from Dreamworks back in the early 2000s but SEGA killed that baby before it could even leave the womb.
It comes down to a lifetime of experiences as a result of my connection to Sonic which I never anticipated when I wrote those early stories. That's something that has yet to be properly conveyed. Maybe someday.
I think you should pin this.
Yup, that sounds like Penders.
Hey matttt could you maybe do a video on Alan Moore? Love his works on watchmen and killing joke, and he seems like an interesting guy to learn about with your awesome videos
What did I just read… My brain is completely fried
Two words for this guy: de-caf.
I don't know why, but god has just decided that the Sonic franchise needs to be this cosmically misaligned divine comedy. It never ends.
Chris Chan as the fallen angel
So who is Dante? Ken Penders? hahaa
I blame Sega
The lore slowed down after 2020 thankfully
@@LongcrierInProgress tamers12345
It's funny that the lore behind making the Sonic comics is almost as complex as the Sonic lore they created.
No joke. The Archie comics are unhinged with backstory.
The real sonic lore is the lives of the people who get paid to work on it. Your either getting fired and rehired three times, arrested for insider trading, or having the entire world send you hate mail
I honestly don’t find them anywhere near comparable.
Nobody is gonna mention the sub-culture of Sonic on DeviantArt?
Yep.
This whole saga becomes a lot funnier if you imagine “Archie” is not a company but Archie Andrews himself personally fighting against these writers.
I used to draw comics in school like that, like Game Sonic versus Archie Sonic, Archie Sonic would serve Archie like if he was Palpatine, I even gave Archie a cloak like Palpatine, Amy versus Sally, all that good stuff, I was a silly kid :P
"Its awful Jughead! First Betty catches me calling Veronica while on our date, and now that Penders guy I hired is claiming I committed Fraud!"
"Sega".
& his Lawyer is Jughead.
I can picture the Kids from Riverdale as Comic Executives.
Just think, if this series had been canceled after issue 50, Ken Penders would’ve gone down as a legendary comic book creator, and wonderfully devoted father, nothing more.
You either die a hero, or live long enough to become a villain
but he's not a villain
@@SuperM789I think you're forgetting the part where he made it his goal to tear down the comic and all its lore. At the end of the day it's a comic, but what it had turned into was a pretty good one once ian took over
@@_G.Cin other words, the fuckin' villain
@@_G.C And also all the weird sexual shit we wrote.
@@SuperM789 But he actually is the villain.
Hi there - Dawn Best, here. And I worked on Sonic back when a lot of this stuff was going down. Just wanted to thank you for giving all sides a fair opportunity to talk on this video. Having known all of these folks, and humbled to call myself friends with each of them, it's been hard to see interpretations on these legal proceedings that amount to "this person must hate that person" and what have you. I myself have never had a conversation where anyone who'd worked on Sonic has said anything bad about another creative. Things just weren't that personal, despite the internet's assumptions. Your video really highlights that. Really, really refreshing stuff.
Idk it does seem like Penders has a bone to pick with Ian
Ken must have put up one hell of a mask then. I've heard him badmouth a TON of people, both online and in person.
@@scarletempress2652 Yeah, he has kinda passive-aggressively put down Ian Flynn before, (which is ironic Ian has defended Penders' stories like "Endgame") and though he admits he never read Ian's stories, he assumes they're "bad," just because his die-hard fans on his forums don't like them.
He even tried to accuse Ian of stealing his idea of having Bunnie and Antoine marry. To which Ian stated was a coincidence, and he came up with it on his own. (With how long they've both been together who hasn't thought of that possibility? It's not something only one person could think up.)
He also said he has no access to Ken's note, or ideas, so unless he can somehow read Ken's mind, it's an unfair accusation.
So there is some issues between Ken and Ian fans. I've enjoyed both their stories, so I'm not trying to be biased here, but sometimes Ken makes it hard to defend him...
Sonic aside, you took the time to Interview the relevant parties. You didn't make a lolcow out of a strange guy with strong passions. You deserve so much respect for that alone.
Well to be fair it isn't hard to make a lolcow out of ken.
@@leviticusprime4904that's why it is impressive that matttt didn't do that
People not make ken a lolcow for having strqnge assions, they make a lolcow out of him for his overall attitude and incidents, this doc while revealing new info also ommits many.
People make a lolcow out of him for thinking that he can slap a copyright on Echidnas, the species that he didn't even fucking create.
Nobody would make a lolcow out of Ken Penders, if was just him having strange passions. The reason Ken is seen as lolcow is due his attitude and unwarranted big ego he has like claiming he invented the echidnas or some concepts alongside wanting to sue people.
Reminder that the Knuckles TV show had a whole acid crack flashback segment about Knuckles' backstory and they made his dad look like Ken Penders.
That wasn’t his dad. That was Pachacamac, the leader of an ancient tribe from Sonic Adventure. In the show, they never called him Knuckles’ dad.
@@thefvguy5648 Was referring to this: ruclips.net/video/N6RJhdfRb8Y/видео.htmlsi=4BLGTYldPLH9kh3p
He's talking about the puppet.
@@C.S24 oh
😮😮😮
Penders would be way more sympathetic if he hadn't screwed over SatAM writer Ben Hurst out of a Hollywood Sonic movie pitch before the lawsuit.
Ironically, that probably came back to bite him, considering this may have indirectly contributed to the finalized Sonic movie having Ian Flynn contributions.
That alone is enough to make hate his ass. Such a snakey way he went about it and the fact he of all comic creators that has fought for their characters got one over Archie; it’s the cruelest joke if you’re a creator who got screwed out of your character rights that’s making millions.
Absolutely. I’d argue that while it’s somewhat laudable that Matt kept the video topic JUST about the comics side of things, the fact is Ken had basically tried to claim HIS version of a comic adaptation of BEN’s show (albeit, using Sonic characters) is more important than Ben’s own vision. Ken may have created the entire Echidna cinimatic universe, but based on the concept work at the time, Sonic:Armageddon was mainly focused on the main series and was billing itself as a conclusion of SATAM.
All of that is to say, the Sonic Chronicles fiasco and Archie’s incompetence mixed with Ken’s obstinacy was the nail in Archie Sonic’s coffin, but the Penders hatetrain had long ago left the station by that point
Look... guys... by the time Sonic movie was being pitched, Sonic Adventure was ALREADY dropped. It would never work. It doesnt matter who would be making that movie. In no way SEGA wouldve taken anyone up on the movie based on SatAM of all things while SEGA of Japan was bringing Sonic to a completely different dimension and world while casting their own, wholly japanese (with the SOLE exception of the name "Ivo Robotnik") lore into the stone of their new direction.
@@KOTEBANAROT I don't even particularly care for SatAM itself. Whether or not there'd actually be a Hollywood movie based on SatAM is not the point at all. The point is that Ken Penders threw Ben Hurst - more qualified to write a story properly in the SatAM tone, and who by all accounts of anyone who knows him was a decent guy - under the bus and got him blacklisted from Hollywood based entirely on lies, all so he could get the shot at a movie pitch he was less qualified to make, thus decreasing the chances of a Sonic movie happening at all, because he'd rather there be no Sonic movie at all than one without his direct writing credit.
The fact that his own SatAM-based movie pitch was awful, and his effort indirectly contributed to his present-day arch-nemesis getting exactly what Penders wanted, was just icing on the cake.
@@KOTEBANAROTEven if it wouldn’t of worked, that doesn’t really excuse what he did
I wonder how Penders feels now that Ian is pretty much a writer for the games, its gotta sting more since SEGA is actually using some of the characters from the IDW comics in the mobile games and they're even considering putting some of those characters in the mainline games. On a side im pretty sure SEGA ended their license with Archie due to their incompetence regarding their legal cases, I mean they pretty much hired most of the Archie Sonic crew when they started the IDW series.
Considering how he reacts every time something mildly resembling one of his characters makes it into a story he didn’t write, I doubt he’s envious. He’s probably wondering why Flynn isn’t demanding a 7 figure sum for Surge in speed battle
I honestly hope he gets to create something similar to a adventure game that would be great since frontiers didn’t really get that deep despite me not having played it yet, good i waited for the updates though.
@@arturoperezify feel bad for Ken Penders at the same time cause a man like him can get engrossed at such things, a lot of artists are like this to exactly get their job done right like a one man army even to extreme lengths of extents. It’s an interesting case study once you take a look at it how creative companies handle their own staff they can go haywire once it steers into a different direction or even a lack of motivation on so many factors
"Considering"
Bruh, they literally canonized Tangle in Sonic Frontiers. She doesn't appear, but Sonic mentions her by name. They're not just considering, they've started dipping their toes in.
SEGA of Japan always HATED the Freedom Fighters. Naoto Oshima mentioned this on his Twitter way back when. The only reason they kept the Archie comic around is because it was selling well and made them money. Once this fiasco went down, SEGA told Archie to reboot the comic universe. Then it didn't sell as well so they used that as an excuse to drop it.
“Where’s my contract?”
“We can’t find it.”
*Files copyright*
“Well would you look at that. Here it is.”
Seems extremely sus to me.
Whether he signed a contract or not, his comics were still derivative of Sega games.
@@SeanWheeler100 yeah, but Archie should’ve be paying him reprint fees.
@@SeanWheeler100that’s a different topic
Well, why wouldn't Archie give him a contract? Why would they forge one after he left?
From how I understand it, Ken must have signed a contract, but forgot that he did or maybe he was lying about it because he was greedy. And there was a fire that destroyed the original contract, which was why Archie had to present a photocopy in court.
And even if there was no contract, there was still the fact that Archie hired him to write licensed Sega comics. That's very work-for-hire. It's not fanfiction or parody that Ken wrote. It was the official Sonic comics. Contracts are there as a formality. Legally, the copyrights of his comics should go to Sega.
@@SeanWheeler100 the thing was Archie had a bit of a history of losing contracts, and not just with their Sonic writers. That kind of incompetence just opened them up to this sort of stuff.
When an 11 view, 1 minute old, 46 minute documentary about the Sonic the Hedgehog comic book hits your front page, you know you got a banger
I swear this channel just spawned outta no where and started producing high quality videos
yeah, why am I here? 😭
edit: OMG ITS THE COMICS VIDEO ESSAY GUY
@@johntheanimator4317 that's how every channel feels to anyone that hasn't heard of it and watches it for the first time, growth-wise/alorithm-wise, yes he blew up relatively fast, but this has happened 13325241 times before, it's literally how successful channels are born.
@@Myhaay I've been watching his videos for some time now! but I'm impressed that even their older videos are high quality product!
@@johntheanimator4317 yeah, i wouldn't be surprised to find out he had an earlier channel or worked in something similar, his production quality has been high since day 1.
Not sure why it can't be both; Penders is greedy and Archie is a corporate bully.
I agree with this, situation was a clusterfuck but nothing good came out of it
Honestly it just makes me sad that out of all things in comic books, THIS is the case where the "creator" wins
Oh also let's not forget, in a children's comic, he wanted the main character's girlfriend to lose her virginity, and it wasn't even to her boyfriend
I mean, it's the Sonic comic book universe, it's like a neodymium magnet for deeply weird individuals. I wouldn't say Ken was being greedy, exactly - creators deserve to get paid for their work, and I'm not terribly surprised to learn Archie comics was a little slipshod with their management back in the day - they were about the cheapest operation going in an already notoriously cheap industry. But he does come across as a dude with some issues that would be better worked out somewhere other than the pages of a kids' comic book.
this entire thing is a lesser of two evils debate
"Archie is a corporate bully," so...? Isn't that literally saying Sega is lazy and takes advantage of its fans? Why put effort and less effort can still sell because it's Sonic
Also to add, one stipulation that Penders demanded for the use of his characters was that his 25 Years Later plotline be the canonical future for the comic. There was no way that was going to fly.
Hearing the words “Other M” as a Metroid fan made me perk up out of fear/concern
You too? Hearing that triggered my my fight or fight response and made me double check the video i was watching
I didn’t really play much of the Metroid games, but happened to play a lot of Other M. Why is it hates so much?
@e3102bete Oh boy...
So imagine Sonic. Now imagine that Sonic is not only obsessed with pleasing Shadow but that he's so obsessed that he's willing to endanger his own life on the hopes that maybe Shadow will accept him. Because Sonic thinks is Shadow as his father. Now imagine that, despite all the times he's beaten him, Sonic becomes frightened to the point of paralysis at the sight of Dr. Eggman. And Knuckles has to risk his own life to snap Sonic out of it. And when you say
"Wait, none of this makes any sense"
One of those weird fans says "well it's PTSD." Even though that has never been a thing in any other Sonic media. And then when you point that out, they say "you're just mad Sonic has a character now." Even though that character is antithetical to everything you have ever seen him do in every other piece of Sonic media
That's what they did to Samus in Metroid Other M.
@@elevate07 I will state the ptsd thing is rather from the fact that Ridley completely died in super. But a more appropriate reaction then “Oh boo hoo! The big space dragon that killed my entire childhood that I have fought numerous times is scary!” But more of blind rage like “DIE DAMMIT!!!”
@@elevate07Was Other M a prequel?
I think Penders would've been fondly remembered if he was a better Team Player. the biggest issue he had is that he wanted things to be his way or the highway. he was so focused on telling the stories he wanted to tell that he forgot that these were not his characters, and when you're working with a license, you need to respect the license. He wanted to make it all about himself. and couldn't just exit the spotlight with grace. even if I he was right that Archie didn't have him sign the work for hire contract, and deserved royalties for his work, it was VERY wrong of him to try to impose conditions to the use of the characters in the book he was no longer working on.
Being a "team player" in comics just means getting fucked over. What Archie did to Dan DeCarlo was criminal. What Marvel did to Kirby and countless others was criminal. What DC did to Siegel and Shuster and so many others was also criminal. There's nothing wrong with wanting to get paid and sticking it to these greedy ass companies. If you create a character while writing Batman, a pre-established IP, you deserve to be compensated and earn royalties. I don't see how it's any different just because Sonic started as a video game IP.
He didn't follow with other people's stories and stook only to his own. Do you think that's them screwing over him?
@@jerr0. Ken obviously deserves compensation for his work, but you can't expect the fanbase to like the guy who treated the sonic ip as only a vehicle to get his own stories out and then got butthurt when someone else took his place.
Nobody is saying ken should've let archie take advantage of him. He should've been a "team player" in the sense that he shouldn't have forcibly made the comic all about him.
@@dummyyogurt5375 I don't expect it from the fan base because they don't know the details, nuance, the comic industry, or how to think for themselves. Hating on Penders is like hating on Zelda 2. People do it cause the internet told them to
Archie were the screwups in this situation. They fucked up the contract and didn't want to pay for their mistake. Not to mention this Penders stuff was happening at the same time Dan DeCarlo was getting royally fucked over by Archie
If you don't know, DeCarlo created the Archie house style, created Josie and the Pussycats (Josie is the name of his wife). Archie fired him after 43 years because he wanted compensation for the live action Josie movie
I'm not even crazy about most of his writing, but I also don't understand the "making it about him" bullshit. He only had a handful of characters to work with, obviously new ones are going to be created to keep an ongoing title interesting. Those shitty (original) Echidna books had enough interest and sales for Archie to decide to print those comics
It's just crazy to me how Archie comics isn't the screwup/villain of the story. Everything went through them
@@jerr0.How though? It all began when penders sued sega over the characters from dark chronichles INSPIRED by the dark legion
Gotta pity poor Karl Bollers. Has to share the book with Ken, gets forced at gunpoint by Sega to ram modern Sonic lore somehow into Archie's Pseudo-SatAM universe, and then gets fired over a fricken slap!
Actually he didn't write the slap that was put in last minute by an artist that was on the way out, Karl openly stayed that he had no idea about the slap until it was too late.
@@doujinloverXD Yeah a sonamy artist did it I heard. The shipping wars were crazy back then. Don't they know the only canon sonic ship is that sonic bangs every girl he meets?
I read the comic from issue #0 and it was around #75 when they started shoving the Adventure game lore into the mix and it REALLY messed everything up. The world of Mobius just didn’t have a cohesive feel to it that the cartoon helped establish
@@AuthorJohnADouglas I liked the arc as a fun little escape but it was out of place and hamfisted in.
@@hitbycars and every time a new game came out they had to hamfistedly ram the new characters into the existing canon
I’m new to this whole saga, and had never heard about Pender before, but to me it seems like this is a case of a guy going from wanting to make a comic for his kids out of a desire to be a better father to straight up using the comic as a form of therapy to resolve his own issues. Which in one way is like-that’s part of what art is for! But in another is very frustrating because of the incongruity of engaging with that kind of content in the context of a sonic comic for kids. Not that kids can’t handle the subject matter necessarily, but it feels like over time it was being made for him, rather than for them if that makes sense. Thanks for this content Matttt!
It also didn't help that Sonic was Penders only success. He had numerous failed comic and show pitches before and after the comic. So he latched onto this like you wouldn't believe. It's why even years later and being the demon of the fandom, he still attempts to integrate back in.
@@nobodybw1962 kind of nice that the pinned comment, the email from Penders, completely backs you up
@@yrobtsvtKen Penders needs to go sit on a cactus. 🥱
Hate your down in this situation with us now you shouldn’t have been dragged in.
I just find Ken Pender’s work weird solely because of his skunk insert and his writing’s treatment of the insert’s love interest, Sally (a MAIN CHARACTER), I do not know nor do I want to know more about this dude’s stuff.
Pender’s issue is that he invested to much of his actual life into Sonic/Knuckles to the point that he forgot that he doesn’t own the franchise. He was hired to do a job, and yes at times he did an amazing job, but he was replaceable and obviously so. Look at where his characters are now. Nowhere. Meanwhile Sonic moved on and created a brand new comic that is successful outside of Archie Comics and tied in directly with Sega.
Ian Flynn's story is so goddam inspiring dude. I love that guy and his passion for his work.
I know right. Went from a college age fan making amateur fan comics about Sonic to a highly prolific comic writer who manage to become the definitive writer for many Sonic related stuff (also Mega Man).
Like he is basically a Bizarro Chris-Chan in that regards.
To each their own
American Toyotaro
@@BigK13372 Back when Flynn worked with Archie, he was also planning on writing a Mario comic too that he hoped to have a crossover event with his Sonic and Mega Man comics, and it got pretty far to being greenlit with both Archie and Nintendo of America approving it, but Nintendo of Japan ended up shutting it down. The Sonic and Mega Man crossover did happen though with the Worlds Collide story arc. And the Mega Man comic also was really good too and it's a shame that it was cancelled so suddenly. It almost seemed like he wouldn't just be the guy who wrote comic adaptations for Sonic but for any major video game franchise if everything went to plan.
this is one of those "you just had to be there" moments in the comics, i remember being so confused because they explained it as separate memories, then they did some classic storyline that had sally & rotor then the genesis wave happened again & the new explanation was that it was like fake memories or something then we just never saw those characters again, buying books hoping one of them showed up, they didnt even show up in the fanart portion on the last page they all just got straight up thanos snapped
the genesis storyline was way earlier and largely unrelated to the reboot lol.
@@haha_hollie yeah my memory is just foggy about it then
Honestly mattt is one of my favourite comic book RUclipsrs
He tells compelling human interest stories with comics as a pretext. I am a big fan too.
Same he’s going to get really big I bet
Same. He's great at what he does.
Same, just started watching his channel and I binged watch every video he has
Same, I think the same.
Feels like that's an eternal quote with Archie Sonic.
"And then, something funny happens'
you have no idea how happy i felt when you said "it wasnt penders vs flynn, it was penders AND flynn"
i respect all the writers that worked on the archie sonic comics because it is my favorite comic series and i know that it was a result of the hard works of more than one person, it just makes me sad when i see most people in the sonic fan base take one side and attacks the other side not knowing that if any of these writers never worked on it this comic would never become great ( yes i called it great i dont care that it is one of the most infamous things ever ) .
all i can do now is to say THANK YOU for making this video, this was a video that needed to exist ( a non biased take on a controversial topic )
There was another force at play here-- someone who sent Archie a mysterious clay medallion that looked like an ungodly fusion of Sonic and Pikachu.
A NEW HOST HAS BEEN CHOSEN
Slight correction. There were THREE shows centered around Sonic, though the last one was made in 1999, and that was Sonic Underground. Still produced by DIC, and still had Jaleel White as Sonic, with elements borrowed from the Sat AM show. Manic and Sonia even appeared in the Archie Comics at some point, albeit with multi dimensional shenanigans.
"Archie comics who were known for comics such as Archie"
hmm yes the floor here is made of floor
“Floor is made of floor?” You’re definitely not a contractor. If you are, please refund all your clients and maybe, become a lawyer. 😂😂😂
The ground vs floor argument continues…
I mean yes, but also no. One is the company name and the other is one product of many.
My floor is made of concrete slab. Which is then covered with plastic and finally Pergo.
Your comment is like "My drink is made of drink".
i hope you guys are just playing along and not oblivious to the meme
whatever the case, keep it up. it's hilarious :D
Ian shows what companies and fans relations should be
Ian Flynn is like the best example of the whole Running the Asylum trope.
@@BigK13372 yep
I really like your documentary on Ken Penders, from his goal of making comics to his strength and weakness in storytelling that build up and saved Archie Sonic for a time.
Fun fact: I kind of met Ken penders last year at comic con. I saw him out of the corner of my eye when I was walking around the convention but when I went to his booth the first time, his second wife (bernie) was manning it since he was getting a signature for his will shatner commission. I bought some things from the booth mainly a patch didn’t get one of the comics since they were selling them for 100 dollars plus I got his business card.
PUNCTUATION
@@hansolobutimdeadsorry I just wanted to share my story
@theshenpartei Well put punctuation and I'll be able to understand it
@@hansolobutimdeadfixed it
@@hansolobutimdead here you forgot these !¡!¡!¡!
I really appreciate you taking the time to really everyone out and getting the full story. I feel all too often stories like this get one narrative and then that’s the one spread around forever and ever, often dehumanizing a lot of key people. Great work man
Also, Ian Flynn's work on the Archie Mega Man comic was excellent, tragically cut short from cancellation.
People are still talking shit about it, but on my side I loved it. I mean, they could've brought a chance to make an IDW ver. of it. It's so sad and disappointing it cancelled out when there was a lot of possibilities to the series.
Huh honestly it's a shame the book got cut short considering they were already setting up the events of MegaMan 4, what a waste
Yeah that’s such a dope crossover for me at least Ian still gets to work on the normal comics it’s one thing that i am glad happened it’s the good ending honestly.
the fact that Ken penders was seeking a 7 figure sum for the lawsuit tells me those licencing talks broke down because he asked too much.
Reminder, he wasn't seeking payment for the use of knuckles or sonic or amy, etc, he was seeking payment for them to use things like "an ancient echidnia society" and "knuckle's dad" etc.
I'm not gonna say his stuff wasn't entertaining, but Ken has a history of VASTLY overvaluing his original creations and getting very petty about people talking critically about his work.
In my opinion, Archie was probably the typical greedy corporation, but Ken was also a petulant child who threw tantrums when he didn't get free reign to write his stories using an IP that he ultimately didn't own.
If there was ever an Echidna that showed up that wasn't Knuckles, Penders would start threatening to sue. The opening of the Sonic movie in fact was only the latest example of this. When SEGA took a more firm hand in the license with IDW, they saw removing anything even tangentially related to Penders as a godsend.
@BenCarverGraphics yeah he's begun to believe he invented the idea of the entire echidna race, despite the ones in the sonic movie being more akin to those in Sonic Adventure.
Also thinking he owns the idea of scourge is pretty silly when good/evil mirror universes were a thing in pop culture ever since star trek had its mirror universe episodes
@@Roboshi2007 But Penders did truly come up with the idea of Scourge being a serial rapist.
@@BenCarverGraphics maybe that's what the "zoot Chute" was all about
I disagree, he gave them a large number because he believed they wanted to keep using the characters, and was confident in his case. Remember, he's sueing for royalties. He and his legal team must have believed they could make more than 5 figures, over time, from the royalties.
Also, rule 1 of negotiating; ask for more than you expect to get and meet in the middle. Either Archie or Penders just didn't wanna meet in the middle, and Archie decided they'd rather pull everything than give him royalties.
as for the original contracts, there was a disaster at the Archie head offices(a flood) where it was presumed that the original contracts were lost. Also, the number of comic creators supporting Penders in this lawsuit one could argue was seen at the time of a way to reverse or payback the DiCarlo situation; essentially resetting the scales of justice after DiCarlo was screwed. Overall great video, and you were exceptionally fair to Penders, especially in omitting 'The Lost Ones'
Is there a source for this?
Penders deserves no 'fairness'. He is and was a moron.
@@sebastienholmes548 it's stuff I've heard discussed informally, but I've heard it quite a few times.
@@BenCarverGraphics because of cases like this I wished there’s something must be done in order not for these companies to make these mistakes yet again. The smaller publishers here in America especially in the comic industry can’t last long unlike some publishers/ manga companies in Japan who by practice could at least last longer.
@@BenCarverGraphics So made up bs. Cool.
phenomenal video. ian's original canon getting cut off the way it did, in such a dramatic story at that, is something idk if i'll ever fully get over. but the recent archie sonic coverage, all of which being more than just "wow this comic was weeeeeeird" is giving me more closure than i ever thought i'd get. thank you for the hard work, it hasn't gone unnoticed :)
I agree. I'm really happy with the coverage archie sonic has gotten online recently
Is it kind of weird that nobody talks about Michael Gallagher‘s contributions? I’ve noticed a common theme throughout all his fourth wall breaking work is kind of metaphysical about the nature of the comic, without ever directly addressing it.
I’m… in the middle. I side with Ken Penders on the creators rights issue, but I don’t see his work as this incredibly original saga either. He’s not a hack or a hero, he’s just a decent enough writer who did get egotistical towards the end.
Im with you on that.
I think the biggest issue with Ken Penders is his ego and vitriol towards Ian Flynn, but he was justified because he definitely inspired the dark brotherhood and didn’t get credit. It’s honestly surprising to me that so many people refuse to give him credit for the ideas because of his later ideas. Both ideas can be true - he was screwed over and an egomaniac.
@rosalinabloom2567 Penders acts like he invented the idea of the Echidnas having a society with impressive technology and that is not the case since Sonic 3 & Knuckles already established the Echidnas as advanced for their time.
That's the thing, I feel like I'd be completely on his side if it weren't for his personality and "original work". Him claiming ownership over things he had no hand in (He made Anti-Sonic sure but he didn't make him into Scourge) and this is even the case with the Dark Legion and the Nocturnus Clan. There's no doubt that they were inspired but after playing and reading the stories it could not be any more different. The Dark Legion is very clearly based off of old Superman comics (Echidnas were apparently going to be revealed as aliens, The Phantom Zone and the Twilight Cage as well as the naming scheme of the female echidnas) meanwhile Chronicles Nocturnus were handled by experienced writers that made a completely different scenario with Argus.
The Archie Offices suffered a flood where the original work for hire contract could have been potentially damaged or destroyed, depending on who you ask. The rest of what i'm about to say is all rumor and speculation: take it as such. The Dan DiCarlo thing made the vast majority of the comic professionals in the industry mad. Ken Penders had a potentially good case, and having multiple other creators stand behind him made his position look much stronger legally. It is a rumor that these other creators stood behind Penders simply because they wanted to make Archie comics bleed in retribution; not because Penders actually never signed a work for hire contract.
@@rosalinabloom2567 Flynn is a Something Awful Alumni.
This story is pretty clear to me.
Penders had a vendetta
Fellow creators have an interest in supporting creator rights
Archie had a terrible legal team
NO BIG COMPANY WANTS ENTER A LAWSUIT THAT THEY MAY REASONABLE LOSE TO A TECHNICALITY because it sets a precedent. Look at all the RUclips copyright controversies. These companies never let it go to court because they may lose control. It was clearly a business decision for Archie to admit they messed up and wipe their hands clean.
Sega likely saw their incompetence and pulled the license.
Ken Penders may be a great father (and I respect that about him) as well as someone who put their soul into their work, but he is still an egotistical weirdo who had a bone to pick and claimed characters like "anti-sonic" of the concept of Knuckles having a father as his own.
You cannot own ideas/concepts under copyright. Only specific characters and works. The anti-sonic one is really funny because it's him claiming ownership of a god damn variant of a copyrighted character.
Penders only had a case because of Archie's incompetence. He's not a sympathetic hero in their story. He's a guy who gets a little too emotionally involved and possessive.
It’s something when I side with the publisher over a creator like Ken because after everything he pulled, he should have gotten his ass kick in court just to knock him down a peg and for screwing over Ben Hurst the way he did.
The fact Izuka took part in Flynn's interview to be the IDW writer tells me that Sega/Sonic Team likely pulled the license to have more control over the comic and prevent another Penders situation.😅
@@animegamingnerdunderstandable on their part tbh, even if the IDW continuity has suffered somewhat because of it
"claiming ownership of a god damn variant of a copyrighted character."
That's perfectly legal. Like MCU Iron Man is a separate copyright to 616 Iron Man.
@@MakeVarahHappennot comparable, because MCU iron man is owned and copyrighted by the same company as the 616.
Ok to be the BIGGEST nitpicker of all time, the old canon didn't end with 243, yes that was when penders characters were removed, but the last issue in the original universe was 247 and the reboot occurred in 251 in the finale of the mega man crossover. What's fun is that event was already scripted to include a temporally reboot and only include game characters, so it falling when it did might be one of the only reasons the comic managed to keep releasing monthly when all this kicked off. I also find Endangered Species the arc when Penders Knuckles characters had to be removed, REALLY good. Flynn could have phoned that in, but no, it's emotional, and dramatic and treats this major change straight, and even gives hope it could be reversed, I think it might be one of my fav works from him, especially with how last-minute it must have been.
The whole reaction to Penders is interesting, I was around at the start of the reboot and was only a teenager. I simply saw the lawsuit was caused by Penders and assumed it was his fault I couldn't see some of my favourite characters and the plot to continue anymore. But as I've gotten older, yeah. I'm still sad those stories never got an end, or I see those characters again, and I still don't like Penders writing, but he was in the right for what he did, and in a way, he stopped any nostalgia reuse of Archie sonics. The Flynn run I love so much is only going to exist in that beautiful six years of stories, along with characters like Scourge, Enjerjak, Shard the Metal Sonic, etc. And maybe that's a good thing in a world of endless nostalgia baiting.
Few other slight errors but I won't point them out since they are extreme nitpicks but great video of one of my favourite series from one of my fav RUclipsrs in a mashup I never expected, lol.
You got a mistake is not 243 is 244 because 243 what's the last time we see of the Pender characters Dan 244 came and started removing them and then we get later we got to 247 at the last time from the old continuity about to be reset right before we're going to jump into the crossover with megaman 252 the reboot happened
How did they manage to remove all of Penders' characters and have it make sense? Didn't he have dozens of them?
@@rouviews1864 Before the Mega Man crossover, his characters were sent to another dimension off panel, the rest of the story becoming themed around trying to save them from the villain that imprisoned them there. While this should be a mess and is a little clumsy it is honestly one of my fav arcs from the comic due to the emotional weight put into it. Following the Mega Man crossover, the universe was rebooted to be closer in line with the games and removed the characters not from games, cartoons or the handful made by Flynn himself beforehand
@@flutterflyer849 Plus Archie comic is not paying this fools and the rest of the former writers because Archie comic is a business it is way better to create new characters into the reboot
@@flutterflyer849 Interesting. So I'm guessing they were never able to rescue those characters? How did the Mega Man crossover reboot the universe?
"I'm not saying it's Watchmen"
That's it, now I want to see the sequel to Bartkira but based around Sonic characters re-enacting Watchmen. Imagine how it'd piss off Alan Moore!
Imagine if Alan Moore did the sonic equivalent of watchmen lol.
Sounds nuts, but I’d read it.
You're one of the best comics-video-essay channels on RUclips. This is the most in depth look at the Archie Sonic fiasco I've ever seen, and the first one where I walked away not thinking that Ken Penders was the moustache twirling villain.
Matttt, as a longtime Sonic fan and someone who read the Archie run as it was coming out when I was a child, you knocked it out of the park with this one. I already know I'm gonna be coming back to this one more than a few times. I also really appreciate the more objective view of the lawsuit and Ken Penders' run on the comics. A lot of people tend to turn documentaries about this era of Sonic into an impromptu roast session on Penders, so it's refreshing to see someone only presenting the facts.
It is extremely hard to do because Penders himself is a walking around sidequest. Mattt didn't even touch on 'The Lost Ones' which, again, I feel was a mercy.
Matttt, I can definitely speak for everyone when I say THANK YOU for all these incredibly entertaining videos! We all learn so much about these interesting people and the stories they create! We love your work!
I don't disagree with Penders seeking the rights to his creations and wanting compensation for them. I support creators rights. It's a shame this whole saga could have worked out better. But the creators at Archie deserved their rights given Archie fumbled the ball by not having them sign the correct contracts.
Hooooweeverrrr.....in his recent work, Penders has repeatedly swiped and redrawn art by other creators that drew his scripts without crediting them. Then, when called out, has claimed that he owns the art because it's based on his scripts, even speaking as if it's somehow his own work based on that fact.
This makes me feel that Penders doesn't respect creators rights. He's in this fight for his own profits.
yeah it's insane this creator is defending the guy despite penders being a massive fucking hypocrite. did archie screw him over? yes. did he screw others over in the exact same way as archie? yes.
EDIT: There's even some hearsay about Penders stealing plots and characters from common fanfiction forums during the comic's run, if that ends up being confirmed then I'd even revoke my "he at least wrote good stories in the comics originally" because he wouldn't have written anything original, which honestly I don't doubt.
Agreed. He doesn’t respect other people’s intellectual property, only his own. He genuinely believes he owns the character Shade the Echidna despite the fact that SEGA created her, even trying to incorporate Shade’s name and design in his own comic. He also created a character named K’Nox the Echidna which is basically Knuckles with a hat, goatee and metal eye, but assets that K’Nox is totally original. Pretty much all makes him a thieving hypocrite.
Penders deserved to get residuals and it would have been fine to just pay him for their use. But I totally get Archie and Flynn just saying, "sure we'll pay you when we use them" proceeds never to use them again lol. But his ego as "I created Archie Sonic, I'm entitled to any story follow ups or characterization" HOLY SHIT dude. It's a licensed comic. I feel most bad for Ian Flynn cause he had some amazing stories under his belt and would have come up with many more amazing stories in the Freedom Fighters continuity. It's really a shame how it all turned out. And there's 0 chance that Penders' butt ugly Lara Sue Chronicles thing is ever going to garner any success.
Penders acts like he did the majority of the work for SatAM lore as well, when the honest truth is the Archie Sonic comics are as far removed from SatAM as SatAM is from Sega Sonic. The IDW reboot and SEGA simplifying things by removing as much of the Archive/SatAM influence as possible was a godsend
@@BenCarverGraphics People act like SatAM is owned by Archie Comics. The Lore is NOT owned by Archie Comics. Its owned by Wildbrain aka DiC.
Lol, you talk about Pender's awful movie pitch without addresing him sabotage Ben Hurst plans for Sonic Satam season 3 before he dies.
Sonic comics were some of the first media that I got super into as a kid. I would buy digital copies for my (tiny!) iPod touch and read them on there, and then later buy physical copies to read. I must have bought at least a few dozen of comics between the digital and print versions, Ken Penders and Ian Flynn issues. Heck, some of the first YT videos I ever did was reviewing issues of the comic! I had always heard rumbles of Penders drama but never knew the whole story of it. Thanks for taking the time to go over the whole thing and to interview the people involved as well. Even though I don't read Sonic comics anymore, I think that will always be a building block of both fandom and media analysis for me.
"The Sonic fandom HATES this man. Does he deserve it?"
Yes.
Little kid me in the early 90s sure liked Ken Penders.
how many vaccines have you recieved, neurodivergent?
@@planetfixer I'm just kidding, I didn't even know who Ken Penders was until right now.
@@planetfixer Man there's trying hard to get a reaction and then there's this lol
@@planetfixer penders deserves all the hate.
He got paid $200 PER PAGE??? GIVE ME THAT JOB PLEASEEEE
That's like $4,400 a month.$52k a year. That's a pretty average salary.
If he wasn't so toxic and rude on Twitter more people would be sympathetic, but it's pretty obvious he is just bitter now, regardless if he was right or not.
You Forgot That Penders Claimed Shade The Echidna As His Own Creation
Even Though Sega Still Has The Copyright/Trademark To Disprove Him Otherwise
He tried putting it into his comic and selling an NFT of it, a real hypocrite considering how much he supposedly cares about creator's rights. Penders wastes precious hours in the court over frivolous lawsuits.
@@StudioRevoct Just Like Todd
McFarlane
Is he stupid?
He tried claiming he owned the copyright to the very concept of Knuckles having a father
@@donnae1899At least Todd has talent.
Rest in Peace, Comichistorian
This video was on point, Matttt! With the money I was able to get from mowing lawns in the neighborhood as a kid in the 90s, I was able to buy a handful of those early Archie Sonic issues. I loved reading those things back in the day, and your video took me down memory lane. The work you put into getting interviews and gathering info really shows. Solid coverage and commentary! Keep up the awesome work!
While I think it was right for Penders to sue Archie, I don't think he had any ground to stand on when it came to his lawsuit against Sonic Chronicles. It honestly makes me so upset about what happened to the game as a result.
Evil faction of Echidnas vs. Evil faction of Echidnas
Dark Legion vs. Dark Brotherhood
Something about a Twilight Zone vs. Something about a Twilight Cage
I can see the similarities and why he'd think his ideas were stolen.
@@espurrseyes42if that was the case, Marvel and DC should be making lawsuits against one another for the many similar characters they have.
Ironically, the IDW comics having more limitations than Archie actually worked out in the end because now Sega confirmed they’re canon to the games, which works perfectly since the comics were writing within the game rules/canon!
That also means Tangle is canon and I can’t wait to see her in the games someday :]
I actually liked satam and saw the comics as the continuation of that universe of sonic so I was upset when the reboot happened and than the cancellation of Archie sonic
@@ultimatespidybawlz2198 yea I get that, especially since we knew the satam characters for such a long time! But in my eyes I always felt like they had a good, very long run. And personally I always felt like the series technically already had a proper finale/ending with the operation endgame arc, sure it wasn’t perfect but that arc will always be the finale of Archie sonic in my heart!
Who cares if its canon if its boring and not worth reading.
@@slimynaut IDW Sonic is amazing! Great character moments and ideas! The story really takes the time to explore the character of it's main protagonist. Yeah it'll never have the expanded and crazy worldbuilding of Archie and SatAM or romance but it really isn't just some monster of the week schlock.
"Oh, look. Matt has a new video out. Which comic will I be reading now?"
One thing i feel like is missing from the beginning: "known for archie comics." Yeah, for sure. But prior to sonic, archie was publishing the TMNT comic that had already started going in weird and dark directions. Sonic wasn't archie comics first successful licensed comic.
That TMNT comic was ghost-written by one of the Mirage staffers for its back half, and absolutely (and gloriously) just became the same sad, weird book Mirage TMNT was with a toyline coat of paint.
Oh hell yeah. I read this religiously growing up and own roughly 200+ issues of this iteration of Sonic. Even had a few letters printed in the back. The meta lore around the series is crazy.
It speaks volumes about the quality of this channel that it had me completely glued to the screen while watching a video about... Sonic comics. Kudos, Matttt!
hello matttt, thank you for this doc. i really appreciate how it could've just been another penders dunk session (and man is there a lot to work with!) but you focused first and foremost on their contributions to the comic and the stories it led to, and also the legal battle as a piece of comic history. not sensationalism.
i have almost never seen any other channels interview one of these figures, let alone all three at the same time. it's incredible. i think i speak for the entire archie sonic fan community, and sonic fans in general, when i say, please release these full interviews (i realize some might have to be edited, especially Ian, considering he is under contract). they are the most recent word on a very contested saga, and a piece of sonic history. bollers i have *never* seen interviewed. ian even can be extremely tight lipped about the situation, understandably so. thank you so much for doing this work. the fandom appreciates you.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH BEATRICEE!
BEEAAATORIIICEEEE!!!!
OHHHHHH BEATIREEEECHEEEEEE!!!
imagine being a game designer in Japan, come up with a cool idea for a running blue hedgehog, and suddenly decades later this fucking shit happens
I've read, but I don't know if it's true, that someone at SEGA in Japan saw the cover of comic number 155 in which Sonic cries and holds an invitation to Sally's wedding and that caused more attention to be drawn to the content of Sonic made in the United States. Like I said I don't know if it's true, but a few comics later, Ian Flynn started his career as a writer of Archie comics.
When you find yourself completely compelled by a documentary about a comic that up until now you had not given even the slightest shit about.
A part of me feels bad for Ken Penders. He inserted his own personal trauma, interests and hopes. Then he lost control of the plot, so to speak.
While i get that, he is literally the template for the crappy entertainment we have in Hollywood today... You cant let your issues and trauma into the works of a IP youre working on... Make your own comic or property to do that
@@frederickdawson2253 I like it when works are personal.
@@olserknam Yeah, But I don't think Sonic is a good template for all those topics like... the actual Holocaust.
The problem wasn't "He put his personal stories in the comic" is more of a "Why the fuck is Knuckles the echidna, the *Lone Survivor of his own kind* the character with he biggest family tree?" It is obnoxious how he believes he invented all of this characters that are "Knuckles with diferent hairstyle" Like he suing Archie for Royalties is 100% UNDERSTANDABLE... IF IT WAS ABOUT HIS ORIGINAL COMIC ISSUES HE WORK ON, but the way he justify himself erks me, because he wants the ownership of Knuckles but purple.
@@olserknam sure when the works are YOURS. this is sonic, an established IP. the fact that literally any IP couldve fit into his works, makes it a problem.
he wanted to make a comic about a 16 year old getting screwed by a 20 something year old
so uh
After Penders finally released his own comic he has been promising for years now and seeing the overall response, he most DEFINITELY deserved it.
yup
He ruined ben hursts sonic satam movie which robbed us of the last chance to see a cast of character SEGA wants you to forget. I will never forgive that.
It’s really horrible like it’s fucking horrible.
This is probably the best video I've seen on this. Thanks for taking the time to interview and research!
Matttt is the only guy who could have gotten me to care about Ken Penders ngl
I still dont
@@mrtimo3822 fair lol
i also dont LOL fk that guy. you probably have a bigger heart than i do so kudos to you for that.
@@lavender188He needs to go straight to hell lol.
I am not even into comics, but drama between artists and writers is always delicious. Thanks for the odd, niche content.
Like Wilbert Awdry vs the first 3 illustrators of his books of the Railway Series. (Thomas The Tank Engine)
@@splat-trainproductionsI mean Wilbert's dilemma actually made more sense tbf, man just wants his engines to be accurate based on the reference material that he provided
@@xavierjuno4572 Maybe Awdry vs. Britt Allcroft? (Calling the IoS a magical land where dreams come true while Awdry tries to make the IoS as real as possible, lack of real engines & locations being acknowledged, Rule 55, Magic Railroad, etc.) Okay, that makes sense too, I guess Wilbert Awdry vs David Mitton & Andrew Brenner.
Lets not forget Penders mining fanfiction, roleplay, and fan characters to steal for the comic. That's the infamous origin of "Do not steal"
Wait, what do you mean exactly?
@@mitchellhancock7920 In the late 90's and early 2000's I used to RP on a text based RP environment called ChaosMUCK. It started to be an odd coincidence that comic storylines started looking suspiciously like past RP campaigns. Turns out we had a plant in our midst who was questioned and finally admitted to feeding characters and plotlines straight to Penders. Turns out she also parsed fanfiction to feed along to Archie.
@@MoteofLobross which stories and characters were those?
@@summersetbanjo7440 It's been literal decades. I'm sure the former admin of the MUCK remembers. I'd have to bug him about it one day.
@@MoteofLobross Translation: I made it all up. This never happened. I just want to Shade Penders.
We can safely assume Ken Penders is a narcissist at this point, especially with that email he sent you.
Also, just because something is legal does not mean it is moral, justified, ethical and/or humane.
Its really interesting how this is the only video i have ever seen that didnt paint penders in a negative light. All i have ever heard is they are a notorious asshole. so im feeling this made with penders feelings in mind
@birdcrossing And then Penders just verbally rants at him via email.
Ian Flynn's Mega Man run was incredible. It was cut short way too soon (also those volumes cost a fortune on secondhand sites...)
I like how matttt doesn't waste time in his videos just to boost watch time like so many other youtubers. He just gets right to the point and gets all the information across clearly. And his delivery is so passionate it really sounds like he's excited to tell you about stuff, unlike other channels that read lines in a detached and bland way. I'm so sick of videos where a guy who talks like a bad actor in a high school play slowly trickles out his point
Excellent analysis. And I agree! But the others will just have to keep practicing (and getting feedback if they're the real deal) until they reach this level.
27:45 this is the correct way to make a piece of fiction by the way, especially when you are using characters that aren't your own. If I am reading something and the author is going to project themselves very heavily into it I feel like it would be important that that would be something they established at the beginning immediately. When it comes to fiction people care about characters first and foremost, nobody likes being preached to or being swept up into other people's baggage.
What a fantastic video. You did a stellar job getting the facts and info from the people themselves. Very well done.
I really like this video, its obvious you put a lot of research, time, and effort into making it and it really shows in the quality product. I'd also like to thank you for giving this comic the fair shake it deserves and not dismissing it like so many Sonic fans and people online usually do. As a massive fan of the comics, these are what got me both into Sonic and into comics in general, so they're very near and dear to my heart. Looking forward to your next video, no matter what it may be!
love the video, but I'm a little surprised you didn't mention Jon Gray got his start with a fan webcomic, too! It was posted on a website called SonicVerseTeam back in the day, I browsed it all the time back then obsessively. (I was apparently even a moderator in its fanart section, according to some archives of it on the wayback machine, although I don't remember this at all, lmao) I don't remember exactly what his comic was called, but I distinctly remember being very excited the first time I saw him in an Archie comic because I recognized him from his comic on SVT. It's so cool how fans from back then are still working on Sonic today!
Honestly, I didn't expect you to do something like this, probably because sonic stuff feels way more of a games thing rather than comics.. but this vid looks awesome and I'm glad more people are gonna find out about ken penders
Ken is not a victim. He is an aggressor. He would have been stopped if Arche wasn't so incompetent.
Ken is an ass and Archie is corrupt. Ken has valid points, but that ego and being an ass have royally fucked him over.
These are definitely some of the most engaging video essays I have come across. Keep up the PHENOMENAL work Matttt!
I came to these comics towards the end of their run, but I would sit for a long time looking at the comic cover art gallery in Sonic Mega Collection+ on Xbox. Those visuals and the way they took something like Sonic so seriously still inspires stuff I work on today.
Well, R.I.P. Sally EVER being a part of anything 😢. Also, Bunny.
This is the only essay that humanizes Ken Penders. Behind all his shenanigans there's still a human being. Information over entertainment.
I would recommend checking out Lowart video essays about Penders Archie Sonic work from writer's perspective. But yeah, despite Ken doing some pretty petty stuff with trying to lawsuit Paramount or try to sell his "Lara-Su Chronicles" he's a human too, who had a career and some credibility in other IPs beside Sonic unlike Ian Flynn who's only known as "Sonic guy".
Just to clarify to whoever would read this, I'm not a fan of Penders as person and wouldn't support him, but at least I understand his story and all the jokes about him are kinda pointless and unfitting nowadays. It feels like people make fun of him not for a reason, but because everyone else does that.
Penders deserves nothing honestly. Nothing but a bully
@ashesGeek completely agree, feel like most people just use the "lol ken penders" thing for brownie points, even though it stopped being funny years ago
@wreday720 Not just that, but I find every new video trying to dissect how horrible Ken is to be like an expired apple juice.
I remember fans doing the exact same thing when discussing Takashi Iizuka to the point of making fun of his teeth and claiming him as less than human just because they didn't like 2010's games.
There are a lot of bad fandoms, but Sonic is definitely one of the most petty ones even if fans try to pretend everything is peaceful.
@@ashesGeekthe only reason I hate him is because he got rid of scourage the hedgehog and we’ll never see him in a Sonic game or ip
And although Ian Flynn is just known as a Sonic guy he did his job WELL and definitely deserves more in the comic industry.
9:04 ken has balls of steel because this sounds like a perfect way to make everyone question your ability to take the holocaust seriously.
Edit: the only other writer with a similar style of pure madness is tui, but they’re not bad at writing, just very strange.
Damn man you roasted him saying he can’t take it seriously that’s exactly my thoughts.
22:48 #150 made me so uncomfortable reading it as a kid, that comic cover is tarnished by what's inside
Your old thumbnail rocked. Didn't need to change it, but respect the grind either way
Really good. I always wanted to hear the whole story about this. To a lot of people, Sonic was the comic, but DC and Marvel fans may not have known that.
I don’t hate him but Ken Penders needs basic therapy honestly because he doesn’t know what he’s doing. He is a shadow of his former self. also, IDW sonic was boring because the Japanese lore sucks to begin with. It was never good and it flopped So let it crash and burn
2:55 It's incredibly deceitful to show Micronauts and ROM Space Knight when discussing "licensed comics that typically only lasted a few issues", as that's a straight-up lie. They both lasted 7 (SEVEN!) entire years at Marvel, each with over 60 issues in their original runs, and were incredibly popular during the first half of the 80s - not to mention incredibly influential on the Marvel Universe. Micronauts in particular had created the Microverse as a concept entirely (which is now referred to as the "Quantum Realm" by modern stories such as Ant-Man), and ROM was a very notable piece of the whole Cosmic Marvel mythos. They both frequently interacted with popular Marvel characters too, to the point that the Micronauts even had an entire miniseries dedicated to crossing over with the X-Men at the peak of their popularity!
The only reason they've been "lost to time" is because, well, they were licensed properties. With some exceptions like Marvel-original characters introduced in the stories, once the license ended, Marvel couldn't make more stories about them even if they wanted to - especially when the toy companies that owned ROM and Micronauts both went under, and the rights constantly shifted hands until finally landing in Hasbro's mitts in the mid-2000s (the Disney-esque IP conglomerate of the toy industry). And well, Hasbro doesn't give a damn about any of their IPs that aren't the heaviest hitters (Transformers, G.I. Joe, and MLP), so while they've made a couple, they haven't done many serious attempts at resuscitating them, or other franchises they own like the GoBots. It's a miracle Hasbro's Marvel Legends even announced they're making a toy of ROM at all, recently.
1:23 you know sonic the hedgehog… -Scott pilgrim 2023
This video would be seen as many creators best work, but the fact you're a consistently strong storyteller with many videos as well done as this is incredible. As a fan of yours who's also just a Sonic fan, this video means a lot. Amazing work!
Another great video, Matt! I had no idea the Archie Sonic had such a complicated history. And once again, thank you so much for the shout out!
From how I remember the fandom taking it, the main reason fans didn't like Penders for this lawsuit was because he had basically disrupted the entire comic for his characters, and his characters were really derivative of the Knuckles character, and not only that, a lot of them served the same purpose and were very similar to eachother; at that. And now after he's "won" this legal battle, he just argues with people on twitter over it, and he has only just released the "prologue" of the book using these characters, after 13 years. Which makes it seem like he just wanted to fight a fight and win so he could gloat about it, instead of licensing his characters to Archie so they could keep the book running and he could continue to get paid.
I see. So, he's a good father, but not great at his job is what I'm seeing from this. Well he did good enough at the start I guess.
Penders Isn’t the most truthful narrator so I take everything he says with a grain of salt for example:
Penders says he doesn’t remember signing a copyright contract Archie indeed did make him sign one
However the technicality was they didn’t have the original copy
Penders even said he took advantage of how disorganized Archie so it’s a lie
I 100% agree that it was a combination of Penders worldbuilding and Flyn’s ability to mesh ideas and characters together that made that short run with Archie so good.
I also think that both stories you described are somewhat accurate. Penders was going after a big corporation profiting off of his passions and emotional writing, but at the same time I think the reason he gets so much hate online is that he genuinely did destroy a story that a lot of people were very emotionally attached to. At the time it seemed as though, through his actions, no one else would be able to bond with their kids in the way he had with his own kids so long ago… and he, to this day, shows zero remorse for it. Flyn on the other hand admitted in your interview that his actions were bad, he owned up to that and moved on, writing two other sonic comics (post lawsuit Archie and IDW) AND he was able to consolidate the game cannon into a cohesive story with compelling characters outside of Sonic himself, something the games have really struggled with recently. Flyn has proven his understanding of WHY people loved Sonic, and has been able to provide that to fans even after some of the biggest roadblocks a comic writer has ever had to face. Meanwhile, Penders actively placed at least one of those major roadblocks there, and showed zero remorse for the what his victory cost.
I think Penders could have been seen as an abused hero had he only shown a little more care towards the fans. Has he approached it with an attitude of “The story you love is abusing those who have crafted it, and I want to correct that” things might have turned out different. And perhaps Archie themselves are to blame by not being willing to pay for his characters, if they were supreme cheapscapes that would also explain some of this. But his attitude then and now only pushes fans away from him, showing that he doesn’t respect what other writers can do with his characters, nor does he understand any of the valid criticism directed at him (perhaps he ignores all of it because of the waves of invalid criticism thrown his way, but ignoring ALL criticism is how you end up making no progress at all).
TLDR: Penders can worldbuild, Flyn understands why we love Sonic the character, Flyn has proven his drive and love for the character and fans, while Penders actively destroys his reputation with, at best, a lack of self awareness for WHY people are mad at him.
I remember reading through old Acrhie on 4 days train trip a few years ago. Looking at this panels in video give me ptsd but I think this line describes behind the scene perfactly ‘You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain…’
Pender's reaction to Flynn's work is infantile. I understand wanting to get paid and going after a corporation that exploits your work. But his negative relationship with everyone else who has written the book is suspect.
Ken's anger towards Ian would've been a bit more justified if he himself didn't screw Bollers over. I know that Karl's contribution to the comic was smaller than that of these two, but I hate it when he's not given credit for his work. Partially because of Ken, who overwrote most of Karl's plot arcs.
Ken Penders was the Season 1 protagonist, and became the antagonist of Season 2.
In hindsight, Ian Flynns style is like a refined version of Penders early works
Ken Penders should have been fired months ago when this comic was being published I don't know why they bothered keeping him around. Nobody wants to read somebody's autobiographical spill in thier sonic comic, I'm sure he went through a lot but people care about these characters not his personal experiences. If that was the case he could have made his own comic with his own characters instead of trying to hijack another franchises audience to preach about his experiences with his dad. The fact that he was so difficult about it makes me hate him too and I don't even read these comics
I really appreciate the care in which you talk about these people related to the Sonic Comics.
It's easy to add fuel to the fire and paint Penders and others as EVIL but I liked how you displayed him (and everyone else) as a person, not some evil mustache twirling, Sonic ruining villain.
Love your stuff Matttt❤