It's been said, but it bears repeating... Spock was completely irradiated. Meaning, his voice box (explaining his rough voice), his eyes (explaining his vision and hitting the glass), his legs (explaining why he ultimately collapses). We, as the audience, have to watch him fall apart and die. It's incredibly tragic and perfectly executed.
It's completely obvious and I totally agree with you. Spock mentioning the Kobayashi Maru test that he never took until then was in simple terms "a test of his character" and then asking Kirk, basically do you agree? Similar to how Spock reacted in a life/death situation in "The Galileo Seven" by jettisoning the shuttle's fuel to save the crew. He's now comfortable dying that his character doesn't need to cheat death but accept it, if there is no logical way around it. IMO.
@@dr.juerdotitsgo5119 Sometimes shit just comes out of nowhere in real life. That point was made in The World According to Garp. It’s not just an unreal Hollywood device. Furthermore, death and facing it was all over the movie up till then. And any fan familiar with Spock would recognize his actions as being completely in character. Magnifying the tearjerker aspect magnifies the emotional impact on the viewer. I have always been okay with this decision.
@@trekkiejunk That's how I took it as well. A bit of levity to share with his friend, illustrating how far Spock had come in his journey to balance his Vulcan and Human halves.
@@alucard624 Yeah, the _Into Darkness_ one was almost a joke. If nothing else, the fact that the movie had already set up how they were going to bring [SPOILER] back to life later took all the emotional investment out of the scene.
Regarding Spock bumping into the glass and not making direct eye contact during the death scene, I always took that to mean that he had been blinded from the radiation.
Indeed quite! An additional thing I learned from Nimoy's 2nd autobio, "I am Spock" (an okay book, imo, not great) is that the radiation chamber set was accidentally air-tight. He was slightly suffocating shooting that scene, and just "used" it.
@@agresticumbraSpock was taking a face full of blindingly white sparkles, that alone would have blinded him, much less the intense radiation. When I first say this movie as a kid in the 80s I figured out he was blinded immediately. The bag pipes also didn’t throw me because I had seen military and police funerals with pipes being played.
Spock bumping into the glass was very effective for me. Here is the most competent, intelligent person in all of Star Trek being frighteningly vulnerable. It's the moment Scotty's "he's dead already" hits home.
"he bumps into the glass it almost took me out of it." "his voice was too raspy" "he doesn't make eye contact" bruh... my man is dying of radiation. Cut him some slack lmao.
Have either of you attended a funeral, or graveside ceremony, where there was a bagpipe? I have. One of my husband's uncles had this very song played just down the hill from where his body was being laid. It wrecked nearly everyone. It's much more moving in person, IMO, and I totally get the tradition, "The most famous song played at fire and police funerals is Amazing Grace. It wasn't too long before families and friends of non-celtic firefighters began asking for the bagpipes to be played for fallen heroes. The bagpipes add a special air and dignity to this solemn occasion."
I don’t want to beat a dead horse at this point but how did you not get that Spock was blinded by the radiation burns? The bumping into the glass and them not making eye contact was so POWERFUL and tragic. And you took it as a failed gag and bad directing? 😮 There was so much emotional stuff going on. Blind, burned, simply moving was probably incredibly painful…but he slowly stands, straightening his uniform, trying to move with dignity. Misjudging the distance and bumping into the glass, shattering that feigned dignity, was heartbreaking. Of course they didn’t make eye contact. Spock could only trust that his friend was right there and understood. It’s the first time watching you guys that I felt you really missed something important. You are usually pretty insightful.
Spock was blind which was evident by him walking into the partition bumping his nose, so this is why the eyelines are off. Side note Harve Bennett who before Trek worked on The Six Million Dollar Man in the 70s was brought in to find the best fan type of movie, so he requested copies of the entire series of TOS to see who or what plot line they could possibly use. Once he watched Space Seed and they were in full swing they suddenly realized a bit late into production that no one had even contacted Ricardo Montalban or his agent especially since he was fully committed to the popular Fantasy Island at the time, luckily enough it worked out. Also Ricardo said as it truly had been 15 years IRL since he played Khan he had to watch it again to match his past self then to turn that into pure rage directed solely towards Kirk after losing his wife whom he loved pationately.
Spock was blind. That's why he bumped into the glass and why he couldn't make eye contact with Kirk. The agent/manager for the actor that played Joachim, Judson Scott, screwed up the negotiation with the studio and lost the credits listing. Scott has told this story in interviews.
Yeah, I thought that was obvious. Maybe they could have made it a bit clearer by having Kirk move his head a little trying to catch Spock's eyes. Just a tiny, non-verbal change would have covered it.
I always thought that Spock hitting the glass and the eye contact not matching up was b/c he'd been blinded by the radiation so he's using Kirk's voice as a guide as to which direction Kirk's in, but Spock has no clue how close the glass is or Kirk's precise location.
Just one thing - Spock bumps into the glass and doesn't look Kirk in the eyes because he's blind at that point. He just stuck his face in the energizer shooting out radiation. That's why the skin on his face is peeling off too.
You not understanding Spock's blindness (and why he didn't make eye contact) or why his voice was so raspy, took you out of the scene. It's a shame, because it sounds like you didn't feel the depth of emotion happening there because of it. I hope you can watch it again with a new understanding and that you'll appreciate it more.
@@richdurbin6146 Scotty in a kilt with bagpipes being something to laugh about wasn't what I expected. He was honoring Spock, that was the point. Them getting so off track with two emotionally important scenes takes a lot away from the movie and its impact.
Kirk, when faced with a hypothetical no-win scenario, cheats for his own glory. Spock, staring down the real thing, faces his own death, and sacrifices himself in order to save the Enterprise and her crew. Spock offers self-sacrifice instead of Kirk's self-serving aggrandizement, and in addition to costing Kirk his best friend, shows Kirk what it means to have true courage when facing death to save others. Only then can Kirk learn the lesson he should have learned as a brash young cadet. That is why even though he knows he is dying, Spock thinks it is important to tell Kirk: "I never took the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?" When Spock dies, it shatters Kirk, forcing him to confront what he should have learned in the scenario when he was a cadet. While Kirk puts up a brave front, it leaves a mark that he's never experienced before. His confrontation with Khan was the Kobayashi Maru scenario in reality, but this time, he was not able to hustle his way out of it, and for the first time has to face its devastating consequences.
Guys, the ending (when Spock dies) is KIRK's Kobayashi Maru. KIRK is the one who is facing the no-win scenario there because there is nothing he can do to prevent his best friend's death. He cheated before, but couldn't this time. THAT'S why Spock brings up the Kobayashi Maru again as he is dying. I always thought that was the most brilliant things thematically about the film. It will resonate brilliantly in the next film. Hey guys, I love watching you guys experience "Star Trek." I'm 65, I've known the show since I was a kid and LOVED this movie when it first came out. I saw it way more times in the theater than I did "Star Wars." (I had a very complicated first reaction to "The Motion Picture" but that would be a phD dissertation to tell LOL.) I love the respect that you guys show to TOS, you guys really get it. And that's great to see. Cheers guys...
@@klemmre9 OK. Kirk cheated death once more. WIN. The _Enterprise_ and all the souls aboard also survived another day. WIN. Spock made a copy of his _katra_ prior to his suicidal mission. Sarek seemed to think this was more important than his radiation-fried corpse, because everything he knew and everything he was would not be lost. WIN. This scenario can hardly be called NO-WIN.
Spock beat HIS kobayashi maru by sacrificing himself to save the ship. And Spock was blinded by the radiation, that's why he couldn't see the glass. And my favorite of the TOS movies, it Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
From the moment the movie was released, fans have pointed out that Chekov wasn't on the show when Space Seed aired, so how could Khan recognize him, and that's a fair observation; however, I prefer to believe that the character of Chekov was still working on the lower decks of the Enterprise when he encountered Khan, and it was off camera. He was then promoted to the bridge crew in the second season. After all, there are hundreds of people working onboard the ship and it's entirely possible for Chekov to have been onboard when Khan was first rescued and then tried to take control. He was working on the Enterprise's lower decks.
That's pretty much how the novel puts it I think he was working the night shift and he was one of the ones who actually takes khan and his people down to the planet shame the film doesn't reference this maybe khan could said I remember you dropping us off on this soon to be hell hole etc
@@philfitnesspt6139 Love the novelization. Pretty intense too in parts, especially with describing what actually happened to the Regula 1 scientists when Reliant showed up.
About the son story line discussion from 7:02 to 7:52, Kirk's line to Carol Marcus about David "I did what you wanted. ...I stayed away. ...Why didn't you tell him?" indicates that Kirk did care about his son and wanted him to know that he was his father, but Kirk was honoring what Carol wanted for David by staying away. It would indicate that Kirk did not care about his son if Kirk had stayed away from David by Kirk's choice alone rather than to honor Carol's wishes, but that is not what is indicated in the script.
I think you guys are completely wrong and missed the boat on Spock's condition. As many said already, Spock had extreme radiation burns. It should have been obvious by the fact that his face was a mess of sloughing, peeling skin and green blisters and blood. Even his hands, which he had protective gloves over, were terribly burned and matted with green blood. His eyes were damaged beyond repair and he was completely blind. Dude was literally cooked. How is that not apparent?
@16:25 As some have said, the reason Spock both bumped the glass and why he didn't look at Kirk was because Nimoy played as Spock had been blinded by the radiation stream he was looking into. If one watches that scene under that assumption, it's even sadder, because he died not being able to see his friend Kirk. Also, as for Amazing Grace, as others have also said, it is very common to be played at the funerals of police officers, fire fighters and military men. Gene Roddenberry was an LAPD officer for about 7 years, so doubtless he saw and felt first hand the impact of that song on the attendees. Having been a law enforcement officer myself for 32 years, I can attest that when done skillfully, it is a powerful tribute.
If it hasn’t been mentioned yet, rumors were spread that Spock would die in this movie which was why he was included in the opening scene where he “dies” and Kirk later comments “Aren’t you dead?” It was to throw the audience off.
What I like about Khan's character is that his actions have a chain reaction that can be seen in the remaining TOS movies. I cant think of another villian whos actions did the in any movie franchise
Guys, there's a reason why movies 2, 3 & 4 are referred to as the "original trilogy" for this franchise. #3 and 4 are terrific! Especially #4. You will love the 4th movie. I think The Voyage Home is as good or better than The Wrath of Khan.
4 was a lighthearted change of pace after 2 and 3 being so heavy. It really was in the spirit of the original show. I liked it a lot but to me, it’s third after 2 and 6. My fave scene is the punk on the bus.
Jesus Christ, boys.... I've really enjoyed watching your journey thus far, but your takes here ain't it. Especially with your complaints regarding Spock's death scene, it's almost like you weren't even paying very close attention at all to the nuance and detail going on, there. It's all intentional.
A Perfect reason for Khan "Knowing" Checkov is that Khan went through the entire Enterpiise Logs and all information and his superior brain could remember Checkov's Image and File!
@@Rocket1377Weeeeeeeeeeell, if that was true, he wouldn't have been yelling "Where's the override?! The OVERRIDE!" He had lots of time to scan all the data on the ship he stole, else he and his followers wouldn't have been able to operate it. He would have known where the override was.
@@zoppie How much time did he have? Not knowing exactly where everything is - other than critical systems like propulsion, shields and weapons - on a different ship that he's never been on before isn't hard to believe. I also don't think Khan memorized everything about the Enterprise or the Reliant. He just encountered Chekhov off-camera in the original series before he was promoted to bridge crew.
Kirstie Alley as Saavik is so much better than her replacement Robin Curtis in the following movies. Curtis was just wooden and stiff, and they gave her an awful mullet. Alley had beautiful hair in TWOK. When Nicholas Meyer wanted to bring the character back in 6, he tried to get Kirstie Alley, because he saw how bad Curtis had been.
I disagree. Curtis played Saavik the way Nimoy played Spock. Both only half Vulcan but choosing to present as Vulcan. Alley was emoting all over the place. Plus Alley's makeup was all wrong. What green blooded character is going to have a pink complexion complete with rosy-red cheeks and lips?
Alley played the character as a half-Romulan. Which she was, in the novelization by Vonda B McIntyre. Nicholas Meyer also seemed pretty pleased with her performance, as the guy who created her.
Wow sorry guys, I cannot relate to any of your comments except one. As a life long Star Trek fan from the early 1970’s, I wish they had left out Kirk’s son when watching this movie back, when it was new in the movie theater. Also, Kirk knew he had a son it was, just that he had not seen him in many years and never when his son had grown-up to be an adult (smile…smile).
@@targetaudience Thank you, for replying to my post. You are correct of all the six (6) movies with the 1960's Star Trek crew this will always be at the very bottom of the list. My favorite movies are the ones with even numbers 2, 4, and 6 (smile...smile).
ST VI is my favorite, slightly edging out WoK, with IV just behind. They are all different and all have elements that I think you will appreciate. We are not done with character arcs. I think you will get a lot out of Search for Spock too. While I hear you about it, bagpipes playing Amazing Grace is traditional at funerals and appropriate for Scotty. It gave him something more to do. Better than singing Always Look On The Bright Side of Life! Many, myself included, feel it amplifies the emotional impact.
ST 2-4 is actually a legitimate trilogy. 3 was my entry point to the franchise (probably the worst place to come in from a story perspective) and it stands as one of my favorites. There’s a lot it has to say.
My god, you really managed to misread that last scene with Spock, did you not. Watch it again hon.....Oh and If you didn't think much of this movie, you're gonna bloody hate whats to come.....
There are two pieces of classic literature that figure prominently in this film. A Tale of Two Cities: A character sacrifices himself for the greater good. Moby Dick: A character is obsessed with revenge and destroys himself. As someone who was put into advanced literature classes in High School, I loved these bits.
It is interesting to see people who never watched Trek react now. I saw Wrath of Khan in theaters at 11 and it floored me. Seeing your reaction brought me back to then.
Why wouldn’t Spock’s voice be raspy?!?! And why wouldn’t he walk into the glass?!?! Clearly his voice and his vision and eventually his some of his motor skills were affected by the radiation from the warp core! They’re not looking completely eye to eye because Spock’s depth perception is a little off. And I don’t have the slightest problem with Khan and Kirk not being face to face. They didn’t need to be sharing the screen. I have this movie ranked number one as most do and I have Star Trek 6 Undiscovered Country ranked number two with Search for Spock ranked number three. Anyway keep up the good content guys.
His depth perception isn't just off, he is totally blind. He can't see Kirk at all and is just facing towards the voice. Even when he is doing the repairs on the energizer he seems to be struggling to see and his fumbling and feeling his way around.
Kirk seemed like he wanted to be a part of David's life, but his mother seemed to be the one who wanted Kirk to stay away for fear if David had known him would have left her and followed him all over the galaxy. I give Kirk credit for respecting Carol's wishes. Not many men would sacrifice their relationship with their child even if it meant they would have had a more stable home life. People are way too selfish to think of the child's wellbeing over their own wants or needs. I should know. I was a child of divorce and it seemed more like my parents were fighting against each other, rather than fighting for their children. I love them both, but they didn't think about what we wanted at all.
Regarding the bagpipes, you guys were just looking for any excuse to break the emotional tension in the room. I assure you very few viewers saw the bagpipes as ridiculously out of place for that scene. The entire death and funeral were just perfectly done and probably ranks among the top cinematic deaths of all time.
Much like Yeoman Rand appeared in TMP as a transporter tech; Kyle (the transporter chief from TOS) was now a commander and the Reliant's communications officer.
Um, Joachim is definitely not established as Khan’s son in the Director’s Cut. Sounds very bizarre. He was a character in the TOS episode as well, but also never shown as Khan’s son.
I feel the same was as James Bottas, II never fails to make me cry and I won't begrudge anyone for whom it's their favorite (and, on given days, it may be mine as well), but I think my favorite is usually, fairly consistently, VI.
When this movie was filmed, Ricardo Montalban was experiencing severe back pain. It may have contributed to the decision to omit person-to-person action.
You had mentioned that one thing you did not like about TMP that Kirk had no arc. How come you guys didn’t discuss a Kirk totally had an arc in this movie? That’s really the main theme of the whole movie. I think overtime you’ll learn to appreciate this movie even more. I know what you guys like watching nearly all of your reactions to Star Trek. Really think you’re going to love the search for Spock. My guess is that It might be your favorite movie.
This is a movie that sticks. Seeing in the theater I thought it was a pretty good adventure movie. Now 40 years and many viewings later I have much more appreciation for it.
The Wrath of Khan was my first star trek experience as a child. After the 6th film, my dad bought them all on VHS and I remember seeing them for the first time at home on the tube in the basement lounge in the home I grew up in. I would rewatch them quite regularly as I grew up and the professional confidence of the entire crew was a thing that shaped a lot of my own attitude through school and into adulthood.
I feel like facing the no win scenario is more Kirk's arc than Savik's. As he said he cheated so he didn't face it and he doesn't believe in it. But this time he had to. This time he lost, he lost Spock.
6 won't disappoint when y'all eventually get to it. Fan service without being self indulgent, genuinely interesting canon bridging NG to the original series/movies, and a heck of a *good* plot with _more_ than one fun villain! Takei (Sulu) didn't want to be in it until Nick Meyer showed him his part + Takei had a simple demand...which I can't mention cause its a bit spoily.
I think they both did great considering how the character changed between movies. Kristie played a Saavik that was half Romulan, where as Robin played a Saavik that was full Vulcan.
In response to your comments about wanting to know more about characters or characters having background roles. When this movie came out the 20 screen metroplex theaters didn't exist. The majority of theaters were one or two screens. A few 6 to 8 screen theaters started to appear. Each screen had a different movie playing so in order to get the max views for a movie each day movie length rarely went over two hours with two hours max actually being the unspoken line you do not go over too far. A theater is open on average 14 hours per day so you get 7 viewings per day for a two hour movie on one screen. So the script had to be well written and not drag out and the editing had to be on point to be able to tell a coherent story and decide what stayed in and what had to be cut and some tough choices had to be made. The part about Cadet Preston being Scotty's nephew was one of those tough calls. The director and editor figured the audience would just think that Scotty was very impressed with a cadet staying at his post in all the chaos and probably performed a function that kept the damage from being worse and saving some lives. As for Scotty taking Preston to the bridge had been explained in the book that the attack had damaged the turbolift system and Scotty was actually taking him to sickbay but the malfunctioning system took them to the bridge. Now a scene with a tight script and great editing is Khan's introduction. From Khan taking off his gear to lifting Chekov up lasts 4 minutes 50 seconds. In that time span you got to know that Khan was a genetically engineered super human. He ruled over a large territory on earth. Was defeated and fled earth with others. How he encountered Kirk and the Enterprise. That he tried to kill Kirk and take over the Enterprise. How he and his crew wound up where they are now. What had happened to them since "Space Seed". That Kirk never checked on them and went on to higher rank that pissed off an already pissed off Khan. Now they had to give out all that information because the director knew not everyone had seen the "Space Seed" episode. I know the cast and crew had some regret with Kirk and Khan not having a face to face meeting but they had a much smaller budget to work with and they had the troubled production of The Motion Picture hovering over them where the script was rewritten several times before and during filming and went over budget and behind schedule. So they kept things simple. Besides while Shatner at 51 was in good shape Montalban was 62 and probably wasn't up to a physical fight. This also goes back to the much smaller budget and keeping things simple. The Motion Picture cost 44 million while ST2 cost 12 million. Now with these 20 screen metroplexs movies are getting longer pushing three hours and one thing I keep hearing from people watching these movies is "They could have cut 20 minutes out of this movie and it wouldn't have effected the story at all.
Actually, Nicholas Meyer, having not seen Star Trek before, after getting hired as director, watched all the episodes over a short period to understand the world of Trek and found Khan to be so compelling that he thought Khan would be a great subject for the movie.
Take radiation to your face and see if you can actually see from your eyes after that also a Scottish person to play the instrument a funeral is one of the greatest things he can bestow on a true friend. Seems like you’re really childish if they thought that was funny, so many things you’re nitpicking at It’s astounding in a movie that’s less than two hours long PS when my father passed away, meaning many of his Scottish friends played bagpipes … At my fathers funeral not once did I just start laughing or thought it was ridiculous it’s a great honor to have that done at a person’s funeral. It actually means you’re a true warrior.
People forget when they make angry comments that many of us have seen Spock’s death many times since we were kids. It’s easy for people to think they picked up everything in one go. You guys are doing great. Thank you for giving this franchise a chance. Also, watching it in release order is a stroke of genius.
16:30 Regarding Spock bumping into the glass, I have my own theory. He's blinded but Vulcans have a second eyelid that only closes in the presence of extremely bright light. When Spock looks down to the radiation chamber it was extremely bright causing his second eyelid to close. This blocked enough of the light so that he could could see well enough to fix the problem. That is one of the reasons only Spock could fix the warp drive. But this leaves him functionally blind for a few hours. Not to be had that. That explains why he's not looking directly at Kirk.
The second eyelid would be meaningless in this case. The light would be nothing compared to the torrent of hard radiation that would literally fry his optic nerves.
The sad thing is the Trek films become essentially trying to remake TWOK but with different characters. From here onward almost every film has to have a big villain.
The novel version has Sulu as newly promoted Captain. The shuttle scene to the ship has Kirk congratulating him on the promotion. Rumor has it, Shatner had the script changed, but Meyers said it was rewritten to prevent future stories wondering why a Captain would follow Kirk around.
I prefer Star Trek. The motion picture to Star Trek 2 the wrath of kahn. That said, both are good movies, I like you guys, I was in a minority when I first saw them back in 1979 & 1982. Yes I'm that old 😅
The shipmate that "Khan was close to" is NOT his son. Whoever told you that is mistaken. The character's name is Joaquin. He also appears in Space Seed but played by a very different looking actor. In TOS "Joaquin" it's the first of Kahn's s compatriots who Khan speaks to when they are being revived on the Botany Bay. Joaquin also strikes Uhura when Kahn is trying to get members of the crew to join him (and Kirk is being held in the decompression chamber off screen)
For some reason they spelt his name "Joachim" in the _Wrath of Khan_ script; I like to think it was so they could have a technical loophole to allow them to cast the role fresh instead of offering it to the original actor first.
Many years ago there was a rumor that he was Ricardo’s real life son. I don’t think it was ever substantiated, but maybe that’s where the misinformation came from.
High expectations can be tough to meet. Also, many of my all time favorite movies only elicited a "pretty good" from me on the first watch. Sometimes it takes a while for things to sink in and give me perspective. What I will say about The Wrath of Khan is that I don't think it's perfect. It does have some weaknesses, but what it does well, it does really well. Overall, I'm not a big fan of the vibe of the Enterprise crew in the movies vs. how they are in the show. The show is so much more energetic and fun. With this said, I feel like The Wrath of Khan makes good use of its more somber and arguably more mature approach, doing its own thing and doing it well. It is my favorite of the Star Trek movies (though The Undiscovered Country is pretty good too), but that's merely comparative. I wouldn't quite put it in my top tier of science fiction movies, with Star Wars, Aliens, and so forth. So maybe we're on roughly the same page as far as how good we think The Wrath of Khan is (even if we don't necessarily agree on all the points of why). What I do think you're absolutely crazy for is not being sure whether you prefer this or The (Slow) Motion Picture. I can understand how you could be excited just to see the TOS characters again, but The Wrath of Khan has those characters too, plus an actually entertaining plot.
You guys are usually right on but you missed some important things in this one. Bag pipes at funerals is fairly common (I myself have seen it played at a relatives). Spock was clearly blind. His death scene is iconic and a classic moment in cinema (not just Star Trek). It made even casual fans of the show cry and convinced Nimoy to continue to play the character. All of your suggestions, direct eye contact, not stressing he was blind by bumping into the glass, in my opinion, would make it less effective. You guys do a great job overall and I'm a big fan of the channel but I think you missed it a bit with Spock's death. As far as having Khan and Kirk have a scene together, keep in mind the confrontation between the two was one sided. Kirk has nothing invested in Khan (he was just one of many bad guys he delt with). This is stressed by implying that Kirk never checked on Khan (never gave him a second thought). Khan's revenge according to the director was based on Moby Dick. If you are familiar with the story you realize the whole conflict was created only by Captain Ahab, the whale was just being a whale. Khan could have left with the starship and Genesis but his obsession destroyed him - Khan's obsession with Kirk / Ahab's obsession with the whale. I am a fan of the channel and still enjoyed the reaction. I look forward to Star Trek 3, I seem to like it a lot more than most other people (underrated in my opinion).
The bagpipes is also inkeeping with Scotty wearing a kilt in an episode of TOS. It's very believable that he'd want to play bagpipes at Spock's funeral.
1. BEST of the entire series. Including the new ones. 2. You can hear Chekov's feet hit the wooden deck when he steps off the box when Khan "lowers" him during his capture scene. 3. Kirstie Alley😇 before she gained 150 lbs. 4. I'm not the biggest fan of Kirk screaming "KHAAAAAN" 5. That's Recardo's real chest😱 6. There's speculation that Khan wouldn't recognize Chekov, but he hadn't been introduced when "Space Seed" was made. 7. Kirk and Khan never meet face to face. 8. Leonard Nimoy was tired of playing Spock and even though under contract to carry on he agreed only if he could direct the next movie in the series
None of your criticisms landed. I don't know how you can watch Spock's death scene and your takeaway is that it could have been done better. Him bumping into the glass took you out of the moment? How? Its the tragedy of his injury and sacrifice. Oh well... I guess it's not for everyone.
One of the best death scenes in film. The beautiful shot of Kirk, leaning against the glass and Spock on the other side. It wasn’t the cliché of death scenes in films where one person is holding the other as they die blah blah blah lol.
Yes, you ARE harsher on it than we were when we saw these originally. It’s perhaps a bit of the cynicism of our current age that did not exist back in 1982.
Once again, you guys are missing the point of Kirk's arc. Yes, he beat the "no-win scenario", but for his entire career he has failed to learn the lesson the Kobayashi Maru is intented to teach. It has benefitted him but there was a cost. As with many decisions he has made in his life, there were unforseen consequences. A resentful son, a lonely existence that is focused only on duty, a need to take unwarranted risks, and dead friends.
McCoy told Spock he couldn't go into the room because 'no human could tolerate the radiation that's in there'. To which Spock replied 'As you are so fond of observing Doctor, I am not human.' Spcok was in in fact half-human. Even if full Vulcans could tolerate such radiation, Spock couldn't hence his sacrifice other than the 'needs of the many outweigh those of the few'. Spock was blind and as Scotty said 'Dead already' by the time Kirk got there. He only arose when he heard the voice of his dear friend Kirk and then even only to confirm his sacrifice was successful and to tell Kirk not to grieve - being half-human likely what killed him but also what saved the ship and the concern for his friend (Krik) as he lay dieing, the most human thing he could ever do. As point out before, there are longer version of the film that explain things like Scotty's nephew but other scenes filmed but cut out of all version except for bonus scenes. One such scene was when Sulu was shuttling Kirk and crew to the Enterprise. You pointed out like his lines were cut - they were! The actual filmed scene expkains that Sulu had already been promoted to be the Captain of the new prototype U.S.S. Excelsior which appears in the next film although Sulu doesnt actually get to command her until the 6th film. In the Star Trek II scene, Sulu and Kirk talk about his promotion, the Excelsior and McCoy congratulates him. Your reactions during the watch video showed you enjoyed it more than this video claims you did.
Aside from the obvious Spock death elements, I really loved the moment where they lowered the ship's shields and Khan's people were unable to stop this because they didn't know enough was the big moment for me. Space chess is a great way to describe it.
I saw STII:TWoK in theaters when I was 8 years old and today it still remains my favorite of the original ST films.; I'm an even numbered fan. Spock's death still gets me in the feels to this day. Leonard Nimoy's and William Shatner's performances were perfect.
There was a kid originally on this movie.He was a child from Khans crew.Google it there are pictures of the child and one near the genesis device as it was building up to explode
Clueless reaction. The bagpipes have been used for decades at funerals. I bet you wouldn't guffaw if Uhura performed a Swahili instrumental at the funeral.
You didn't experience the Star Trek starvation we did. The fact that they corrected some of the things we didn't like in TMP (dull uniforms, practically excluding the old guard...) and followed up on a story from TOS are probably why "everybody" loves it. Saavik was used for exposition - she's there as a cadet so there's soneone who can logically ask why - where an experienced office (Sulu, Uhura...) couldn't - and, as Spock is dying in the movie, she's being set up as the Spock replacement (like Xon in Phase II) for future movies.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan is absolutely, hands down, the BEST Star Trek movie every made. It literally set the bar so high for what a Star Trek movie should be, I think it was hard to top or match it with any of the subsequential movies after. Not that the rest were not good - but Wrath of Khan was the best. Can't wait to see your reactions to the next few movies! :)
Oh yeah...... Not understanding Spock has been irradiated to just moments from death and that the body's soft tissue would be the first to go is ridiculous. And, you think that what may be the greatest dearh scene ever could have been done better? There are no words.
I'm of the opinion that Star Trek VI is the strongest of the original film series. Nicholas Meyer, the director of both Star Trek II and VI, created a much better look and feel in the former, which he added to in number VI. The sixth film came out in 1991, so they were able to cleverly use some early CG, where Wrath of Khan didn't have that option. While I love the minimal and deeply personal story of Wrath of Khan, the sixth movie expands on that, but restores the grander scope that made The Motion Picture attractive. The stakes are higher. The soundtrack in VI is also very dark and lends itself to the epic storyline nicely. I'd be curious to see what you guys think about Star Trek VI.
Hey, I'm actually right there with you guys. I like both The Voyage Home and The Undiscovered Country a little more but, honestly, the movies just aren't great. They're good, but the essence of Trek lies in the several series, I think.
I feel that way more with the TNG movies and I love most of the TOS ones. I guess, push comes to shove, II & VI are probably top 10, maybe top 5 (in my case with VI) in a list that includes the series.
When Harve Bennett, the executive producer and 1 of the original writers, was brought on board to helm Star Trek II, the Paramount executives asked him, "Can you make a Star Trek movie for less than $40 million?", referring to the cost of the first film. Bennett, who came from television, said, "Where I come from, I can make 4 movies for that amount." The choices Leonard Nimoy made for the death scene were based on what he had read about severe radiation poisoning, which would include being very dehydrated (so raspy) and loss of sight, so he purposefully does not look at Shatner because he reasoned his character would not clearly see him.
![Twenty One Pilots - “The Line” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/E2Rj2gQAyPA/mqdefault.jpg)
Watch our reaction to Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan - ruclips.net/video/QYkTAxxQfDE/видео.htmlsi=5qgDky6BaGMaeVhD
In my opinion, you will love Star Trek 4, but who knows, I thought you would loathe Spock’s Brain, but you ‘forced’ me to enjoy it lol
It's been said, but it bears repeating...
Spock was completely irradiated. Meaning,
his voice box (explaining his rough voice),
his eyes (explaining his vision and hitting the glass),
his legs (explaining why he ultimately collapses).
We, as the audience, have to watch him fall apart and die.
It's incredibly tragic and perfectly executed.
💯
It's completely obvious and I totally agree with you. Spock mentioning the Kobayashi Maru test that he never took until then was in simple terms "a test of his character" and then asking Kirk, basically do you agree? Similar to how Spock reacted in a life/death situation in "The Galileo Seven" by jettisoning the shuttle's fuel to save the crew. He's now comfortable dying that his character doesn't need to cheat death but accept it, if there is no logical way around it. IMO.
@@dr.juerdotitsgo5119 Sometimes shit just comes out of nowhere in real life. That point was made in The World According to Garp. It’s not just an unreal Hollywood device. Furthermore, death and facing it was all over the movie up till then. And any fan familiar with Spock would recognize his actions as being completely in character. Magnifying the tearjerker aspect magnifies the emotional impact on the viewer. I have always been okay with this decision.
@@trekkiejunk That's how I took it as well. A bit of levity to share with his friend, illustrating how far Spock had come in his journey to balance his Vulcan and Human halves.
Glad you pointed this out. So many people don't realize what Spock had just gone through.
Guys, I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone else say that the death scene could’ve been done better.
For real. My non-Trek friends even say it’s one of the best death scenes ever.
It's all about the peers pressures, Init?
Ironic that Abrams and Co. thought they could in Into Darkness. It sucked and was frankly disrespectful big time.
@@alucard624 Yeah, the _Into Darkness_ one was almost a joke. If nothing else, the fact that the movie had already set up how they were going to bring [SPOILER] back to life later took all the emotional investment out of the scene.
He's gonna catch hell for that comment!
Regarding Spock bumping into the glass and not making direct eye contact during the death scene, I always took that to mean that he had been blinded from the radiation.
And it's somewhat reminiscent of the reveal that he's been blinded in "Operation -- Annihilate!", when he bumps into a piece of furniture in Sickbay.
Indeed quite! An additional thing I learned from Nimoy's 2nd autobio, "I am Spock" (an okay book, imo, not great) is that the radiation chamber set was accidentally air-tight. He was slightly suffocating shooting that scene, and just "used" it.
Did they not discern from what they were being shown that he was blinded by what he did?
@@agresticumbraSpock was taking a face full of blindingly white sparkles, that alone would have blinded him, much less the intense radiation. When I first say this movie as a kid in the 80s I figured out he was blinded immediately. The bag pipes also didn’t throw me because I had seen military and police funerals with pipes being played.
@@agresticumbra Unfortunately, they didn't seem to get it even though it was obvious to most of the rest of us.
Spock bumping into the glass was very effective for me. Here is the most competent, intelligent person in all of Star Trek being frighteningly vulnerable. It's the moment Scotty's "he's dead already" hits home.
@@trekkiejunk I say Great Value Ben Affleck. Although, for Star Trek, maybe we should say Kirkland Ben Affleck.
"he bumps into the glass it almost took me out of it."
"his voice was too raspy"
"he doesn't make eye contact"
bruh... my man is dying of radiation. Cut him some slack lmao.
Have either of you attended a funeral, or graveside ceremony, where there was a bagpipe? I have. One of my husband's uncles had this very song played just down the hill from where his body was being laid. It wrecked nearly everyone. It's much more moving in person, IMO, and I totally get the tradition, "The most famous song played at fire and police funerals is Amazing Grace. It wasn't too long before families and friends of non-celtic firefighters began asking for the bagpipes to be played for fallen heroes. The bagpipes add a special air and dignity to this solemn occasion."
I don’t want to beat a dead horse at this point but how did you not get that Spock was blinded by the radiation burns? The bumping into the glass and them not making eye contact was so POWERFUL and tragic. And you took it as a failed gag and bad directing? 😮 There was so much emotional stuff going on. Blind, burned, simply moving was probably incredibly painful…but he slowly stands, straightening his uniform, trying to move with dignity. Misjudging the distance and bumping into the glass, shattering that feigned dignity, was heartbreaking. Of course they didn’t make eye contact. Spock could only trust that his friend was right there and understood.
It’s the first time watching you guys that I felt you really missed something important. You are usually pretty insightful.
Yeah, I thought it was pretty clear that he was blind. It needed no further explanation.
Spock was blind which was evident by him walking into the partition bumping his nose, so this is why the eyelines are off. Side note Harve Bennett who before Trek worked on The Six Million Dollar Man in the 70s was brought in to find the best fan type of movie, so he requested copies of the entire series of TOS to see who or what plot line they could possibly use. Once he watched Space Seed and they were in full swing they suddenly realized a bit late into production that no one had even contacted Ricardo Montalban or his agent especially since he was fully committed to the popular Fantasy Island at the time, luckily enough it worked out. Also Ricardo said as it truly had been 15 years IRL since he played Khan he had to watch it again to match his past self then to turn that into pure rage directed solely towards Kirk after losing his wife whom he loved pationately.
Spock was blind. That's why he bumped into the glass and why he couldn't make eye contact with Kirk.
The agent/manager for the actor that played Joachim, Judson Scott, screwed up the negotiation with the studio and lost the credits listing. Scott has told this story in interviews.
Yeah, I thought that was obvious. Maybe they could have made it a bit clearer by having Kirk move his head a little trying to catch Spock's eyes. Just a tiny, non-verbal change would have covered it.
@@Nangleator22 No need. I've never seen anyone who didn't get that Spock was blinded by the radiation.
@@miller-joel Me either, until now that is!
I always thought that Spock hitting the glass and the eye contact not matching up was b/c he'd been blinded by the radiation so he's using Kirk's voice as a guide as to which direction Kirk's in, but Spock has no clue how close the glass is or Kirk's precise location.
The radiation blinded Spock
Agree.
Tears blinded the fans
Science blinded Thomas Dolby.
Agree. I picked up on it straight away when I first watched it. So obvious
@@AndysseaHe was looking right at the energy stream while fixing the equipment.
Just one thing - Spock bumps into the glass and doesn't look Kirk in the eyes because he's blind at that point. He just stuck his face in the energizer shooting out radiation. That's why the skin on his face is peeling off too.
Yes indeed! He's bleeding green.
I don't get the problem with Scotty playing bagpipes.
You not understanding Spock's blindness (and why he didn't make eye contact) or why his voice was so raspy, took you out of the scene. It's a shame, because it sounds like you didn't feel the depth of emotion happening there because of it. I hope you can watch it again with a new understanding and that you'll appreciate it more.
This is also the only time I've heard commentary about Scotty being in a kilt. Occasionally some of the reactions are just ... odd.
@@richdurbin6146 Scotty in a kilt with bagpipes being something to laugh about wasn't what I expected. He was honoring Spock, that was the point. Them getting so off track with two emotionally important scenes takes a lot away from the movie and its impact.
Kirk, when faced with a hypothetical no-win scenario, cheats for his own glory. Spock, staring down the real thing, faces his own death, and sacrifices himself in order to save the Enterprise and her crew.
Spock offers self-sacrifice instead of Kirk's self-serving aggrandizement, and in addition to costing Kirk his best friend, shows Kirk what it means to have true courage when facing death to save others. Only then can Kirk learn the lesson he should have learned as a brash young cadet. That is why even though he knows he is dying, Spock thinks it is important to tell Kirk: "I never took the Kobayashi Maru test until now. What do you think of my solution?"
When Spock dies, it shatters Kirk, forcing him to confront what he should have learned in the scenario when he was a cadet. While Kirk puts up a brave front, it leaves a mark that he's never experienced before. His confrontation with Khan was the Kobayashi Maru scenario in reality, but this time, he was not able to hustle his way out of it, and for the first time has to face its devastating consequences.
Guys, the ending (when Spock dies) is KIRK's Kobayashi Maru. KIRK is the one who is facing the no-win scenario there because there is nothing he can do to prevent his best friend's death. He cheated before, but couldn't this time. THAT'S why Spock brings up the Kobayashi Maru again as he is dying. I always thought that was the most brilliant things thematically about the film. It will resonate brilliantly in the next film.
Hey guys, I love watching you guys experience "Star Trek." I'm 65, I've known the show since I was a kid and LOVED this movie when it first came out. I saw it way more times in the theater than I did "Star Wars." (I had a very complicated first reaction to "The Motion Picture" but that would be a phD dissertation to tell LOL.) I love the respect that you guys show to TOS, you guys really get it. And that's great to see. Cheers guys...
Except it Spock's death Kirk has to accept, not his own. The KM test is about facing your own mortality
well... they call it the "NO-WIN" scenario... but that;s my interpretation...
@@zoppie
@@klemmre9 OK.
Kirk cheated death once more. WIN.
The _Enterprise_ and all the souls aboard also survived another day. WIN.
Spock made a copy of his _katra_ prior to his suicidal mission. Sarek seemed to think this was more important than his radiation-fried corpse, because everything he knew and everything he was would not be lost. WIN. This scenario can hardly be called NO-WIN.
Spock beat HIS kobayashi maru by sacrificing himself to save the ship. And Spock was blinded by the radiation, that's why he couldn't see the glass. And my favorite of the TOS movies, it Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country.
From the moment the movie was released, fans have pointed out that Chekov wasn't on the show when Space Seed aired, so how could Khan recognize him, and that's a fair observation; however, I prefer to believe that the character of Chekov was still working on the lower decks of the Enterprise when he encountered Khan, and it was off camera. He was then promoted to the bridge crew in the second season. After all, there are hundreds of people working onboard the ship and it's entirely possible for Chekov to have been onboard when Khan was first rescued and then tried to take control. He was working on the Enterprise's lower decks.
That's pretty much how the novel puts it I think he was working the night shift and he was one of the ones who actually takes khan and his people down to the planet shame the film doesn't reference this maybe khan could said I remember you dropping us off on this soon to be hell hole etc
@@philfitnesspt6139 Love the novelization. Pretty intense too in parts, especially with describing what actually happened to the Regula 1 scientists when Reliant showed up.
About the son story line discussion from 7:02 to 7:52, Kirk's line to Carol Marcus about David "I did what you wanted. ...I stayed away. ...Why didn't you tell him?" indicates that Kirk did care about his son and wanted him to know that he was his father, but Kirk was honoring what Carol wanted for David by staying away.
It would indicate that Kirk did not care about his son if Kirk had stayed away from David by Kirk's choice alone rather than to honor Carol's wishes, but that is not what is indicated in the script.
Those are important details that was overlooked.
It does make Carol look like a selfish bitch, though.
I think you guys are completely wrong and missed the boat on Spock's condition. As many said already, Spock had extreme radiation burns. It should have been obvious by the fact that his face was a mess of sloughing, peeling skin and green blisters and blood. Even his hands, which he had protective gloves over, were terribly burned and matted with green blood. His eyes were damaged beyond repair and he was completely blind. Dude was literally cooked. How is that not apparent?
@16:25 As some have said, the reason Spock both bumped the glass and why he didn't look at Kirk was because Nimoy played as Spock had been blinded by the radiation stream he was looking into. If one watches that scene under that assumption, it's even sadder, because he died not being able to see his friend Kirk. Also, as for Amazing Grace, as others have also said, it is very common to be played at the funerals of police officers, fire fighters and military men. Gene Roddenberry was an LAPD officer for about 7 years, so doubtless he saw and felt first hand the impact of that song on the attendees. Having been a law enforcement officer myself for 32 years, I can attest that when done skillfully, it is a powerful tribute.
I’ve noticed this long before now; but the more you’ve heard about how good or bad something was, you’re more likely to go the other way.
If it hasn’t been mentioned yet, rumors were spread that Spock would die in this movie which was why he was included in the opening scene where he “dies” and Kirk later comments “Aren’t you dead?” It was to throw the audience off.
I might prefer The Undiscovered Country, but it’s close.
Not only is this a great movie, but it’s one of the best movies of the 80’s.
What I like about Khan's character is that his actions have a chain reaction that can be seen in the remaining TOS movies. I cant think of another villian whos actions did the in any movie franchise
Guys, there's a reason why movies 2, 3 & 4 are referred to as the "original trilogy" for this franchise. #3 and 4 are terrific! Especially #4. You will love the 4th movie. I think The Voyage Home is as good or better than The Wrath of Khan.
I agree with this. 4 just beats 2 for me.
4 was a lighthearted change of pace after 2 and 3 being so heavy. It really was in the spirit of the original show. I liked it a lot but to me, it’s third after 2 and 6.
My fave scene is the punk on the bus.
Jesus Christ, boys.... I've really enjoyed watching your journey thus far, but your takes here ain't it. Especially with your complaints regarding Spock's death scene, it's almost like you weren't even paying very close attention at all to the nuance and detail going on, there. It's all intentional.
A Perfect reason for Khan "Knowing" Checkov is that Khan went through the entire Enterpiise Logs and all information and his superior brain could remember Checkov's Image and File!
Exactly, he has a photographic memory.
@@Rocket1377Weeeeeeeeeeell, if that was true, he wouldn't have been yelling "Where's the override?! The OVERRIDE!"
He had lots of time to scan all the data on the ship he stole, else he and his followers wouldn't have been able to operate it. He would have known where the override was.
@@zoppie How much time did he have? Not knowing exactly where everything is - other than critical systems like propulsion, shields and weapons - on a different ship that he's never been on before isn't hard to believe. I also don't think Khan memorized everything about the Enterprise or the Reliant. He just encountered Chekhov off-camera in the original series before he was promoted to bridge crew.
Spock was blind at this point after fixing the warp drive.
Kirstie Alley as Saavik is so much better than her replacement Robin Curtis in the following movies. Curtis was just wooden and stiff, and they gave her an awful mullet. Alley had beautiful hair in TWOK.
When Nicholas Meyer wanted to bring the character back in 6, he tried to get Kirstie Alley, because he saw how bad Curtis had been.
I disagree. Curtis played Saavik the way Nimoy played Spock. Both only half Vulcan but choosing to present as Vulcan. Alley was emoting all over the place. Plus Alley's makeup was all wrong. What green blooded character is going to have a pink complexion complete with rosy-red cheeks and lips?
Alley played the character as a half-Romulan. Which she was, in the novelization by Vonda B McIntyre. Nicholas Meyer also seemed pretty pleased with her performance, as the guy who created her.
Wow sorry guys, I cannot relate to any of your comments except one. As a life long Star Trek fan from the early 1970’s, I wish they had left out Kirk’s son when watching this movie back, when it was new in the movie theater. Also, Kirk knew he had a son it was, just that he had not seen him in many years and never when his son had grown-up to be an adult (smile…smile).
All the praise we gave the movie throughout the video you can’t relate to? You must not like the movie much then.
@@targetaudience Thank you, for replying to my post. You are correct of all the six (6) movies with the 1960's Star Trek crew this will always be at the very bottom of the list. My favorite movies are the ones with even numbers 2, 4, and 6 (smile...smile).
ST VI is my favorite, slightly edging out WoK, with IV just behind. They are all different and all have elements that I think you will appreciate. We are not done with character arcs. I think you will get a lot out of Search for Spock too.
While I hear you about it, bagpipes playing Amazing Grace is traditional at funerals and appropriate for Scotty. It gave him something more to do. Better than singing Always Look On The Bright Side of Life! Many, myself included, feel it amplifies the emotional impact.
ST 2-4 is actually a legitimate trilogy. 3 was my entry point to the franchise (probably the worst place to come in from a story perspective) and it stands as one of my favorites. There’s a lot it has to say.
ST 5 would be worse!
@@mikejankowski6321 To be fair, the budget for Star Trek V was cut by 97%.
I love ST3. Don’t understand so many being down on it
My god, you really managed to misread that last scene with Spock, did you not. Watch it again hon.....Oh and If you didn't think much of this movie, you're gonna bloody hate whats to come.....
There are two pieces of classic literature that figure prominently in this film.
A Tale of Two Cities: A character sacrifices himself for the greater good.
Moby Dick: A character is obsessed with revenge and destroys himself.
As someone who was put into advanced literature classes in High School, I loved these bits.
It is interesting to see people who never watched Trek react now. I saw Wrath of Khan in theaters at 11 and it floored me. Seeing your reaction brought me back to then.
The Voyage Home is one of my all time favorite movies… it’s such a comfort movie for me
Of course 2 people who have NEVER seen Star Trek wouldn't be observant enough to realize Spock was playing blind and vulnerable.
Why wouldn’t Spock’s voice be raspy?!?! And why wouldn’t he walk into the glass?!?! Clearly his voice and his vision and eventually his some of his motor skills were affected by the radiation from the warp core! They’re not looking completely eye to eye because Spock’s depth perception is a little off. And I don’t have the slightest problem with Khan and Kirk not being face to face. They didn’t need to be sharing the screen. I have this movie ranked number one as most do and I have Star Trek 6 Undiscovered Country ranked number two with Search for Spock ranked number three. Anyway keep up the good content guys.
Exactly. If you were dying I am sure that a lot of your motor coordination, eyesight, and speech would be impaired.
His depth perception isn't just off, he is totally blind. He can't see Kirk at all and is just facing towards the voice. Even when he is doing the repairs on the energizer he seems to be struggling to see and his fumbling and feeling his way around.
@@lesigh1749 Your completely right about that
Kirk seemed like he wanted to be a part of David's life, but his mother seemed to be the one who wanted Kirk to stay away for fear if David had known him would have left her and followed him all over the galaxy. I give Kirk credit for respecting Carol's wishes. Not many men would sacrifice their relationship with their child even if it meant they would have had a more stable home life. People are way too selfish to think of the child's wellbeing over their own wants or needs. I should know. I was a child of divorce and it seemed more like my parents were fighting against each other, rather than fighting for their children. I love them both, but they didn't think about what we wanted at all.
Regarding the bagpipes, you guys were just looking for any excuse to break the emotional tension in the room. I assure you very few viewers saw the bagpipes as ridiculously out of place for that scene. The entire death and funeral were just perfectly done and probably ranks among the top cinematic deaths of all time.
yeah it was scotty showing the ultimate respect
Chekov was on 3rd shift for "Space seed"
Much like Yeoman Rand appeared in TMP as a transporter tech; Kyle (the transporter chief from TOS) was now a commander and the Reliant's communications officer.
Um, Joachim is definitely not established as Khan’s son in the Director’s Cut. Sounds very bizarre.
He was a character in the TOS episode as well, but also never shown as Khan’s son.
The actor who played the role said khan was his dad.
@@feenix219 yes
I'm a lifelong Star Trek fan. Wrath of Kahn is a very good movie, but I have mixed feelings about it. Star Trek IV is more my personal favorite.
They are not looking at each other because Spock can't see, I assume. It's also why he bumped into the glass.
I feel the same was as James Bottas, II never fails to make me cry and I won't begrudge anyone for whom it's their favorite (and, on given days, it may be mine as well), but I think my favorite is usually, fairly consistently, VI.
well, that's something else we share in common then, 6 is probably my favorite too, at least of the TOS crew ones
When this movie was filmed, Ricardo Montalban was experiencing severe back pain. It may have contributed to the decision to omit person-to-person action.
You had mentioned that one thing you did not like about TMP that Kirk had no arc. How come you guys didn’t discuss a Kirk totally had an arc in this movie? That’s really the main theme of the whole movie. I think overtime you’ll learn to appreciate this movie even more. I know what you guys like watching nearly all of your reactions to Star Trek. Really think you’re going to love the search for Spock. My guess is that It might be your favorite movie.
This is a movie that sticks. Seeing in the theater I thought it was a pretty good adventure movie. Now 40 years and many viewings later I have much more appreciation for it.
They liked but didn't love this film? I cannot believe it. I wonder if RUclips should take this video down.
@@trhansen3244 😂 They also liked Spock’s brain, so that might put their opinion into perspective
Spock runs into the partition and doesn’t make eye contact with Kirk because the radiation has blinded him by that point.
The Wrath of Khan was my first star trek experience as a child. After the 6th film, my dad bought them all on VHS and I remember seeing them for the first time at home on the tube in the basement lounge in the home I grew up in. I would rewatch them quite regularly as I grew up and the professional confidence of the entire crew was a thing that shaped a lot of my own attitude through school and into adulthood.
The Tube?
Like RUclips???! Lol I'm old enough to get that term lol.
I loved that the sides of the Trek vhs tape boxes had the Enterprise when lined up in order
I feel like facing the no win scenario is more Kirk's arc than Savik's. As he said he cheated so he didn't face it and he doesn't believe in it. But this time he had to. This time he lost, he lost Spock.
6 won't disappoint when y'all eventually get to it. Fan service without being self indulgent, genuinely interesting canon bridging NG to the original series/movies, and a heck of a *good* plot with _more_ than one fun villain!
Takei (Sulu) didn't want to be in it until Nick Meyer showed him his part + Takei had a simple demand...which I can't mention cause its a bit spoily.
Robin Curtis does a decent job as Savek in the next movie but Kirstie nailed the role.
I think they both did great considering how the character changed between movies. Kristie played a Saavik that was half Romulan, where as Robin played a Saavik that was full Vulcan.
@@ryancox4498Weeeeeeeeeell, they are both portraying the same character. I believe that Kirstie was cute as the dickens but terribly miscast.
In response to your comments about wanting to know more about characters or characters having background roles. When this movie came out the 20 screen metroplex theaters didn't exist. The majority of theaters were one or two screens. A few 6 to 8 screen theaters started to appear. Each screen had a different movie playing so in order to get the max views for a movie each day movie length rarely went over two hours with two hours max actually being the unspoken line you do not go over too far. A theater is open on average 14 hours per day so you get 7 viewings per day for a two hour movie on one screen. So the script had to be well written and not drag out and the editing had to be on point to be able to tell a coherent story and decide what stayed in and what had to be cut and some tough choices had to be made.
The part about Cadet Preston being Scotty's nephew was one of those tough calls. The director and editor figured the audience would just think that Scotty was very impressed with a cadet staying at his post in all the chaos and probably performed a function that kept the damage from being worse and saving some lives. As for Scotty taking Preston to the bridge had been explained in the book that the attack had damaged the turbolift system and Scotty was actually taking him to sickbay but the malfunctioning system took them to the bridge.
Now a scene with a tight script and great editing is Khan's introduction. From Khan taking off his gear to lifting Chekov up lasts 4 minutes 50 seconds. In that time span you got to know that Khan was a genetically engineered super human. He ruled over a large territory on earth. Was defeated and fled earth with others. How he encountered Kirk and the Enterprise. That he tried to kill Kirk and take over the Enterprise. How he and his crew wound up where they are now. What had happened to them since "Space Seed". That Kirk never checked on them and went on to higher rank that pissed off an already pissed off Khan. Now they had to give out all that information because the director knew not everyone had seen the "Space Seed" episode.
I know the cast and crew had some regret with Kirk and Khan not having a face to face meeting but they had a much smaller budget to work with and they had the troubled production of The Motion Picture hovering over them where the script was rewritten several times before and during filming and went over budget and behind schedule. So they kept things simple.
Besides while Shatner at 51 was in good shape Montalban was 62 and probably wasn't up to a physical fight. This also goes back to the much smaller budget and keeping things simple. The Motion Picture cost 44 million while ST2 cost 12 million.
Now with these 20 screen metroplexs movies are getting longer pushing three hours and one thing I keep hearing from people watching these movies is "They could have cut 20 minutes out of this movie and it wouldn't have effected the story at all.
Actually, Nicholas Meyer, having not seen Star Trek before, after getting hired as director, watched all the episodes over a short period to understand the world of Trek and found Khan to be so compelling that he thought Khan would be a great subject for the movie.
Meyer is a superb director imo, and him being new to the franchise worked in his favor imo as in he didn't bring in 'baggage' with him.
@@Silver-rx1mh Yep. I agree. I think he saved the franchise. He gave us back Star Trek.
@@donaldcordner1936 Exactly. :)
It's not Christy Alley.
It's *Kirstie* Alley.
Take radiation to your face and see if you can actually see from your eyes after that also a Scottish person to play the instrument a funeral is one of the greatest things he can bestow on a true friend. Seems like you’re really childish if they thought that was funny, so many things you’re nitpicking at It’s astounding in a movie that’s less than two hours long PS when my father passed away, meaning many of his Scottish friends played bagpipes … At my fathers funeral not once did I just start laughing or thought it was ridiculous it’s a great honor to have that done at a person’s funeral. It actually means you’re a true warrior.
People forget when they make angry comments that many of us have seen Spock’s death many times since we were kids. It’s easy for people to think they picked up everything in one go. You guys are doing great. Thank you for giving this franchise a chance. Also, watching it in release order is a stroke of genius.
One of the things I like about Wrath of Khan was the way they never had Kirk and Khan meet face to face. It was a pretty bold writing decision.
Thank you so much, TA, for the candor and perspective. I think you should be fine with the next two movies.
16:30 Regarding Spock bumping into the glass, I have my own theory. He's blinded but Vulcans have a second eyelid that only closes in the presence of extremely bright light. When Spock looks down to the radiation chamber it was extremely bright causing his second eyelid to close. This blocked enough of the light so that he could could see well enough to fix the problem. That is one of the reasons only Spock could fix the warp drive.
But this leaves him functionally blind for a few hours. Not to be had that. That explains why he's not looking directly at Kirk.
The second eyelid would be meaningless in this case. The light would be nothing compared to the torrent of hard radiation that would literally fry his optic nerves.
Don't forget "Last Jedi" everyone loved that film.
Spock walk through the glass and doesn’t make eye contact pretty much because he’s virtually blind by that point.
Spock walks into the glass.*
This is the first time I’ve ever heard someone discuss Sock’s death and not understand it holey moley 🤦🏻♂️. As a child I understood he was blind.
I heard the actress who plays McGiver was invited, but she was ill and couldn't commit.
im over here salivating over you guys getting to TNG, DSN, Voyager. i cant wait!
Deep Space 9 is my favorite. I'm going to be real curious how they react to it. I'm really enjoying their run through this.
The sad thing is the Trek films become essentially trying to remake TWOK but with different characters. From here onward almost every film has to have a big villain.
You're so wrong on the death scene..his body is so ravaged by radiation of course his voice would be different and he was blind at the end.
The novel version has Sulu as newly promoted Captain. The shuttle scene to the ship has Kirk congratulating him on the promotion. Rumor has it, Shatner had the script changed, but Meyers said it was rewritten to prevent future stories wondering why a Captain would follow Kirk around.
That dialogue was filmed. It’s during the shuttle craft scene. Kirk mentions Sulu getting command of the Excelsior.
Funny how in later films, that very thing happens…
my bet is you will both enjoy Voyage Home
I prefer Star Trek. The motion picture to Star Trek 2 the wrath of kahn. That said, both are good movies, I like you guys, I was in a minority when I first saw them back in 1979 & 1982. Yes I'm that old 😅
The shipmate that "Khan was close to" is NOT his son. Whoever told you that is mistaken.
The character's name is Joaquin. He also appears in Space Seed but played by a very different looking actor.
In TOS "Joaquin" it's the first of Kahn's s compatriots who Khan speaks to when they are being revived on the Botany Bay.
Joaquin also strikes Uhura when Kahn is trying to get members of the crew to join him (and Kirk is being held in the decompression chamber off screen)
For some reason they spelt his name "Joachim" in the _Wrath of Khan_ script; I like to think it was so they could have a technical loophole to allow them to cast the role fresh instead of offering it to the original actor first.
Many years ago there was a rumor that he was Ricardo’s real life son. I don’t think it was ever substantiated, but maybe that’s where the misinformation came from.
High expectations can be tough to meet. Also, many of my all time favorite movies only elicited a "pretty good" from me on the first watch. Sometimes it takes a while for things to sink in and give me perspective. What I will say about The Wrath of Khan is that I don't think it's perfect. It does have some weaknesses, but what it does well, it does really well. Overall, I'm not a big fan of the vibe of the Enterprise crew in the movies vs. how they are in the show. The show is so much more energetic and fun. With this said, I feel like The Wrath of Khan makes good use of its more somber and arguably more mature approach, doing its own thing and doing it well. It is my favorite of the Star Trek movies (though The Undiscovered Country is pretty good too), but that's merely comparative. I wouldn't quite put it in my top tier of science fiction movies, with Star Wars, Aliens, and so forth. So maybe we're on roughly the same page as far as how good we think The Wrath of Khan is (even if we don't necessarily agree on all the points of why). What I do think you're absolutely crazy for is not being sure whether you prefer this or The (Slow) Motion Picture. I can understand how you could be excited just to see the TOS characters again, but The Wrath of Khan has those characters too, plus an actually entertaining plot.
You guys are usually right on but you missed some important things in this one. Bag pipes at funerals is fairly common (I myself have seen it played at a relatives). Spock was clearly blind. His death scene is iconic and a classic moment in cinema (not just Star Trek). It made even casual fans of the show cry and convinced Nimoy to continue to play the character. All of your suggestions, direct eye contact, not stressing he was blind by bumping into the glass, in my opinion, would make it less effective. You guys do a great job overall and I'm a big fan of the channel but I think you missed it a bit with Spock's death.
As far as having Khan and Kirk have a scene together, keep in mind the confrontation between the two was one sided. Kirk has nothing invested in Khan (he was just one of many bad guys he delt with). This is stressed by implying that Kirk never checked on Khan (never gave him a second thought). Khan's revenge according to the director was based on Moby Dick. If you are familiar with the story you realize the whole conflict was created only by Captain Ahab, the whale was just being a whale. Khan could have left with the starship and Genesis but his obsession destroyed him - Khan's obsession with Kirk / Ahab's obsession with the whale. I am a fan of the channel and still enjoyed the reaction. I look forward to Star Trek 3, I seem to like it a lot more than most other people (underrated in my opinion).
The bagpipes is also inkeeping with Scotty wearing a kilt in an episode of TOS. It's very believable that he'd want to play bagpipes at Spock's funeral.
Yeah the playing of bagpipes is fairly common at funerals. Especially at military funerals.
"He's really not dead, as long as we remember him."
1. BEST of the entire series. Including the new ones.
2. You can hear Chekov's feet hit the wooden deck when he steps off the box
when Khan "lowers" him during his capture scene.
3. Kirstie Alley😇 before she gained 150 lbs.
4. I'm not the biggest fan of Kirk screaming "KHAAAAAN"
5. That's Recardo's real chest😱
6. There's speculation that Khan wouldn't recognize Chekov, but he hadn't been introduced when "Space Seed" was made.
7. Kirk and Khan never meet face to face.
8. Leonard Nimoy was tired of playing Spock and even though under contract to carry on he agreed only if he could direct the next movie in the series
None of your criticisms landed. I don't know how you can watch Spock's death scene and your takeaway is that it could have been done better. Him bumping into the glass took you out of the moment? How? Its the tragedy of his injury and sacrifice.
Oh well... I guess it's not for everyone.
One of the best death scenes in film. The beautiful shot of Kirk, leaning against the glass and Spock on the other side. It wasn’t the cliché of death scenes in films where one person is holding the other as they die blah blah blah lol.
You've not had this issue so far but just try your best to avoid spoilers lol. Going into III and IV knowing so little will be such a great help!
This is my second favorite original series Star Trek cast movie.
I actually prefer "The Undiscovered Country" a little more.
Yes, you ARE harsher on it than we were when we saw these originally. It’s perhaps a bit of the cynicism of our current age that did not exist back in 1982.
Once again, you guys are missing the point of Kirk's arc. Yes, he beat the "no-win scenario", but for his entire career he has failed to learn the lesson the Kobayashi Maru is intented to teach. It has benefitted him but there was a cost. As with many decisions he has made in his life, there were unforseen consequences. A resentful son, a lonely existence that is focused only on duty, a need to take unwarranted risks, and dead friends.
McCoy told Spock he couldn't go into the room because 'no human could tolerate the radiation that's in there'. To which Spock replied 'As you are so fond of observing Doctor, I am not human.' Spcok was in in fact half-human. Even if full Vulcans could tolerate such radiation, Spock couldn't hence his sacrifice other than the 'needs of the many outweigh those of the few'. Spock was blind and as Scotty said 'Dead already' by the time Kirk got there. He only arose when he heard the voice of his dear friend Kirk and then even only to confirm his sacrifice was successful and to tell Kirk not to grieve - being half-human likely what killed him but also what saved the ship and the concern for his friend (Krik) as he lay dieing, the most human thing he could ever do. As point out before, there are longer version of the film that explain things like Scotty's nephew but other scenes filmed but cut out of all version except for bonus scenes. One such scene was when Sulu was shuttling Kirk and crew to the Enterprise. You pointed out like his lines were cut - they were! The actual filmed scene expkains that Sulu had already been promoted to be the Captain of the new prototype U.S.S. Excelsior which appears in the next film although Sulu doesnt actually get to command her until the 6th film. In the Star Trek II scene, Sulu and Kirk talk about his promotion, the Excelsior and McCoy congratulates him. Your reactions during the watch video showed you enjoyed it more than this video claims you did.
Aside from the obvious Spock death elements, I really loved the moment where they lowered the ship's shields and Khan's people were unable to stop this because they didn't know enough was the big moment for me. Space chess is a great way to describe it.
My favorite line:
No, sir! You have Genesis you can have any/
***FULL POWER!!!!*** DAMN YOU!!!!
(furiously pushes buttons himself in a blind rage)
I saw STII:TWoK in theaters when I was 8 years old and today it still remains my favorite of the original ST films.; I'm an even numbered fan. Spock's death still gets me in the feels to this day. Leonard Nimoy's and William Shatner's performances were perfect.
There was a kid originally on this movie.He was a child from Khans crew.Google it there are pictures of the child and one near the genesis device as it was building up to explode
In the shooting script, there was also a jump scare with Chekov seeing the child outside a window before seeing the other members of Khan's group.
Clueless reaction. The bagpipes have been used for decades at funerals. I bet you wouldn't guffaw if Uhura performed a Swahili instrumental at the funeral.
You didn't experience the Star Trek starvation we did. The fact that they corrected some of the things we didn't like in TMP (dull uniforms, practically excluding the old guard...) and followed up on a story from TOS are probably why "everybody" loves it.
Saavik was used for exposition - she's there as a cadet so there's soneone who can logically ask why - where an experienced office (Sulu, Uhura...) couldn't - and, as Spock is dying in the movie, she's being set up as the Spock replacement (like Xon in Phase II) for future movies.
Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan is absolutely, hands down, the BEST Star Trek movie every made. It literally set the bar so high for what a Star Trek movie should be, I think it was hard to top or match it with any of the subsequential movies after. Not that the rest were not good - but Wrath of Khan was the best.
Can't wait to see your reactions to the next few movies! :)
Great to see some of the patrons' comments at the end.
Oh yeah...... Not understanding Spock has been irradiated to just moments from death and that the body's soft tissue would be the first to go is ridiculous. And, you think that what may be the greatest dearh scene ever could have been done better? There are no words.
I'm of the opinion that Star Trek VI is the strongest of the original film series. Nicholas Meyer, the director of both Star Trek II and VI, created a much better look and feel in the former, which he added to in number VI. The sixth film came out in 1991, so they were able to cleverly use some early CG, where Wrath of Khan didn't have that option. While I love the minimal and deeply personal story of Wrath of Khan, the sixth movie expands on that, but restores the grander scope that made The Motion Picture attractive. The stakes are higher. The soundtrack in VI is also very dark and lends itself to the epic storyline nicely.
I'd be curious to see what you guys think about Star Trek VI.
Awwwww.... I saw tears in both of your eyes. You can't fool me.
Actually when Meyer got the job I think he went and watched all 79 episodes of TOS. He wanted to grasp the source material.
That's Harve Bennet who did that.
Hey, I'm actually right there with you guys. I like both The Voyage Home and The Undiscovered Country a little more but, honestly, the movies just aren't great. They're good, but the essence of Trek lies in the several series, I think.
I feel that way more with the TNG movies and I love most of the TOS ones. I guess, push comes to shove, II & VI are probably top 10, maybe top 5 (in my case with VI) in a list that includes the series.
When Harve Bennett, the executive producer and 1 of the original writers, was brought on board to helm Star Trek II, the Paramount executives asked him, "Can you make a Star Trek movie for less than $40 million?", referring to the cost of the first film. Bennett, who came from television, said, "Where I come from, I can make 4 movies for that amount."
The choices Leonard Nimoy made for the death scene were based on what he had read about severe radiation poisoning, which would include being very dehydrated (so raspy) and loss of sight, so he purposefully does not look at Shatner because he reasoned his character would not clearly see him.
I’ve just got a sneaking suspicion you might really like the next film. Lower expectations going in and all.