Fear the Old Lore─The Crucible, the Golden Order, and Destined Death
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- Опубликовано: 8 авг 2023
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In this episode of Fear the Old Lore, we'll examine the Crucible, the Golden Order, and Destined Death as they pertain to the timeline of Elden Ring with special consideration given to the ages of Godfrey and Radagon respectively. This is going to be a very controversial topic, and much is still going to be open to interpretation. Nonetheless, this is my current best-fit description of how events have unfolded in the Lands Between.
TL;DW: Godfrey's Erdtree and his "Age of Plenty" or "Age of Abundance" coincides with the Crucible, and Godfrey's Erdtree is the Crucible. The Golden Order and sealing of Destined Death by Marika and Maliketh may coincide with Radagon's ascension to Elden Lord.
This is a re-upload with higher quality and less internet drops of a stream I did on the subject.
Link to the MIRO Board used throughout the stream:
miro.com/app/board/uXjVPEyg6uU=/
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Pepe Ofnir art by Daniel Creary:
www.danielcrearyart.com/
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Link to my Bloodborne Japanese to English Translation Comparison Spreadsheet:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/... 
Игры
1:20:39 I think the fleeting nature of LIFE (it is born, it blossoms then it dies) could have fueled Marika’s desire to create an order without death. Her power was based on the life-giving force of the Erdtree and as she saw that decline she wanted to put a stop to that by removing Death from her Order, thereby cementing her grip on power. Just my theory
So essentially Gwyn but more fucked up
Yes, in my theory the order of life is not different than the order of death, or the dark moon. Each empyrian fights to win and wants their order to dominate at the end. That’s why Marika shattered the ring in my opinion, to reset and let the new winner emerge through fighting and struggling
@@lolosh99but why would she create this elobarate plan to banish the tarnished, help steal destined death(?) (Heavy speculation), shatter the elden ring, task hewg with creating a god-slaying weapon, revive the tarnished, task Melina with burning the Erdtree (or at least create her with that skillset). It seems more like the greater-will wants an eternal order and radagon is the tool that the GW are using and Marika is fighting this stagnant and rotting order. Radagon seems to be doing everything thing he can to keep his "perfect" golden order alive. Maybe what you are saying is true and she WAS clinging to the age of plenty but she seems to have almost certainly come back on that idea
I think the sealing of Destined Death was likely a response to the GEQ revolt in the earlier era of the Erdtree.
Re: the GEQ revolt and Destined Death's sealing, which the narrative bits we're given seem to be strongly conflated, the emphasis very much on Maliketh (rather than Radagon or Godfrey), which is an interesting note.
I think Miyazaki in an interview stated that, the Erdtree was born at the Land of Shadow, and that Marika was already a God in lands between, because land of shadow is the place where Godess Marika first set foot
erdtree being a specific example of a type of tree called greatree, this type of tree has their roots intermingled in a network under the lands between and goes through cycles of existing with one dominant tree (erdtree era, great tree era) and many competing trees (crucible, the age after this current one)
Radagon seeking to be "complete" strikes me as fundamentally personal - he's seeking to max up the same attributes from Marika's scarseal/soreseal; it seems to be his attempt to match her. 2:14:16
Also we have a gap between the age before the Age of the Erdtree and the age of the Erdtree. In that gap, we have certain civilizations rise and fall, dragons in Farum azula, Nox exiled underground etc, we have the culture of the death rite birds and so on. I think when the age of the Erdtree was starting it was seeing as a threat among those ancient civilizations that why the conflicts started. The fact that Marika sealed away destinies death to create the golden order was the Major mistake
Repost from the other video in case one of them gets set to private or deleted: If we take "hearsay" as fact _until proven otherwise_ I'd say it makes sense for the "great tree" to have originally been the One Great, which was then fractured by the Elden Star but re-sprouted as the Erdtree. However my main reasoning here is to minimise the number of separate events and eras as the game's themes allow, rather than straight up facts (because we don't have any). The main thing I'm missing here is the incident which forced the dragon god to flee, because the Elden Star seems too early, Marika/Hoarah Loux seems too late, and I can't think of any other documented cataclysms in between.
Considering the sheer size of the thing it also makes sense for the Erdtree to have existed as a small and vulnerable sapling during the war against the Fire Giants which only grew large enough to project real (meta)physical power at/after the end of the war.
Crucible compromise: considering the knights are so few and all immensely powerful I think it makes the most sense they were indeed the mightiest warriors Hoarah Loux defeated who survived and pledged loyalty to him. But only upon taking up the mantle as Lord Godfrey in Erdtree society were they sworn in as knights, turning from essentially a barbarian warband into the knights of the Roundtable.
Personally I'd place the Omen much later in the timeline, they're too different from Misbegotten with the latter appearing more "natural". I think the Omen are a consequence of the Erdtree's decline or even Destined Death being removed, basically the process which was "meant" to create Misbegotten and the like turning malignant from lacking its natural outlet. In your own metaphor the Misbegotten are the runoff from filtering fresh river water, while the Omen are bacteria, algae, mould or the like who evolved immunity to the filter chemicals after the same volume of water was pumped in a circle for ages without replacement. I also don't recall any reference for a time when Omen were _NOT_ reviled, in contrast to Misbegotten and other Crucible stuff.
Explosive Ghostflame makes it very explicit, no hearsay either: "In the time when there was no Erdtree, death was burned in ghostflame. Deathbirds were the keepers of that fire." So non-TWLID ghosts and spirits definitely seem to pre-date the removal of Destined Death whether you believe that marked the birth of the Erdtree or the end of the Erdtree-Crucible era.
Personally I believe the transition happened as follows: Erdtree ages, no longer gives sap, slowly starts dying because that's just how nature works -> Marika removes Destined Death, officially ending the Crucible, red gold turns yellow, the new "eternal" age is named "(Marika's) Golden Order", perhaps this also creates Radagon -> Marika's kingdom adopts "Golden Order (faith)" as its societal foundation but still keeping the golden Erdtree as its symbol, last possible time the Omen twins could have been born -> Radagon adds his rune, alters world order -> official "church"/"religion" (those who would later persecute TWLID), Fundamentalism as a line of study and the like arise as a result. Note Radagon himself would have studied both before and after adding his rune whereas Miquella's research (and Godwyn's death...) proves that they did not 100% understand the minutiae of the order they had created.
Carian Astrology: I hadn't considered Rennala's wedding before in this context but there are some other options to slip in Radahn. Since "withering" and "fettered" are two separate sentences they might refer to two separate events conflated under the general theme, with Radagon shutting down Astrology upon marrying and Radahn (as direct offspring of Golden Order, Radagon mind you) halting the stars and thus fate entirely "in his youth" i.e. probably before Radagon left Rennala. Also worth noting moons supposedly guide stars (and thus fate) meaning it might suffice to impede Rennala to also disrupt Astrology. Sorcerers seemingly have access to two different levels of immortality: Primal Glintstone allows them to body surf in order to escape ageing, and halting fate turns them immortal even beyond that based on Iji likely wanting but not being able to kill Sellen until Radahn was defeated.
How exactly would the Japanese version of Order Healing be interpreted? Because I am reading the English version as denying the existence of "an absolute evil" rather than that of a flaw exposed by Those Who Live In Death. Mind you Godwyn's burial probably was Marika's idea too so her "fickleness"(/motherly grief?) caused that whole mess to begin with. The Golden Order is explicitly defined through the removal of Destined Death thus its partial, distorted reintroduction represents a fundamental violation of its founding principles. More pragmatically without Death nor a proper source of new life as represented by the Age of Plenty the ruling society had no means of actually "fixing" the Death Prince whereas Miquella seemingly believed he had found just that through the Eclipse.
Snake Gladiators could also represent dragons following their attack on the capital, or Godskins due to their particular application of Crucible traits. Both would have been seen as greedy usurpers against god-queen Marika, and at least the Godskins never had any reconciliation to save them from caricature.
Oh man like your take on potential timeline events, here is something to think about but it's a bit of a rabbit hole. There are depictions on the sealed windows in lower Lyndel that depict flowers growing in pairs of three, from a middle flower that branches out continuously. But the church there has been repurposed and now has a statue of someone holding the middle flower, propping it up straight. And the two others are crawling up the side of the statue like they need help. To me this almost shows a giant chaoticly growing flower predated the tree that might not exist if someone metaphorically or perhaps literally prop up only the middle flower. But the rabbit hole gets deep when you realize the crucible, eclipse and eye of death all share similar symbolism
Goldmask's despair of the "hunters" is a reference to those like D, those who "hunt" TWLID. Zealous fanatics who just want to contend with "absolute evil" in the form of the undead. The Japanese is a little less flowery about it, but the English does a good job getting the semantics across. "Absolute evil" is referenced in both texts. Imo, Goldmask's ideology is saying that TWLID are not the kind of "absolute evil" the "good and great wanted to contend with," and that that form of "absolute evil" doesn't exist in the fundamentals of Order.
Thus, if TWLID aren't absolute evil and they currently exist within the confines of the Golden Order, the Hunters have unwittingly turned their backs on the "fundamentals of Order."
20:53 Is it possible that Kanji for Root resin text box tried to say something along the lines of: "The Great TREEROOTS were once believed to be connected to Erdtree and that's why they build a cathacomb here" in the sense that what isn't sure is if those massive tree roots are THE ERDTREE roots, not anything about two different sets of roots combining? I am not able to find the original symbol for Greattree in the first sentence, idk from where they took it...
1:11:24 we know that in Farum Azula men lived along with beastmen and dragons
Now that we have the DLC and the revelation of the Numen and grafting, I believe Godwyn the Golden is a grafter as well.
His original corpse has a fish tail and clamshell for a head. (Perhaps Godwyn's very bones was altered)
It may have became an inspiration to Godefroy and Godrick - both worship the art of grafting. (In honor of what's "Golden")
This maybe a reason why Godwyn was the one targeted for assassination, as his death cursed corpse would graft itself to ErdTree's roots, killing it slowly.
All this seems like an mere imitations to the Crucible, where nature perfectly blends. (I.e Crucible Knights, they seem to manifest different natures while maintaining their humanoid form, unlike our Numen grafters...)
I hope this theory makes some sense... 😅😂
Hey, thanks so much for the 10!
I don't know how canon they are, but for what it's worth, we don't see FishClam-wyn in the story trailer when he gets got by the Black Knife Assassins
@LastProtagonist we couldn't see his lower torso. As for his clam brow, I don't know.. maybe it's in his bones.
For what it's worth, it's a theory. Godwyn is the most enigmatic of them all. We know each children, their descendents, their individual afflictions, just not this Godwyn.
Hey @LastProtagonist !! Love your lore videos!!! I always wondered what the crucible actually was. In my head cannon, I thought of the golden star the Elden beast came in on was like a giant golden seed. I always thought of the crucible as the seed of the Erdtree. Then at the end of the war of the giants it actually sprouts out of the ground and the age of the Erdtree begins. I was wondering what yalls take on this was.
The crucible became the erdtree when destined death was sealed? That would explain them being the same yet also distinctly separate.
When it comes to Radagon, things are getting interesting, because Radagon is not the good guy in the story, first the age of plenty violently stops when Radagon became Elden Lord, also he starts the era of the worship of the Erdtree.tarnished were hunted and became exile, he seals the entrance of the Erdtree an action that clearly show that Radagon doesn't want his era to end, and obviously doesn't want anyone else to take his place as elden lord.
I agree with that reading of the heros rune 100% the death in battle was their honor.
So glad you have the live chat history in up on screen, now that this stupid update took away the ability to view it
Root resin pretty much gives it completely away that the greattree and erdtree are 2 separate trees. The erdtree is a great tree, but why would this item refer to it by 2 diffrent names? Its more likely that the erdtree replaced the previous tree. You also did not highlight the signs for "erdtree" in this description, a bias to defend your personal point of view? THe tree-and-beast surcoat does not talk about the greattree, it also does not link the 2 in any way. Now that i notice it, all these items you presented make it clear that there were 2 trees and that their roots are separate. Ainsel River map would not call the greattree rootnetwork "greattree", the text would be written completely differently if all big tree roots belonged to the same tree. Just like plants can hijack other plants, the erdtree could have connected to the roots of other trees or a previous big one.
24:54 my interpretation of the tree spear is that it looks like a stump with multiple branches growing from it. It was a tree but in its early stage when all branches of life existed together and any branch could become the dominant one. Out of this rose Marika’s branch as the winning one and started the Age of Life. There are depictions from the Godfrey Elden Lord era of a stump with one branch blossoming and I believe that is the start of Marika’s order. When the life-giving force of the tree faded along with the faith in its power, Marika married Radagon who reinvented the system as Golden Order, in which a tree is now only an object of faith
Have you happened to watch Tarnished Archeologists channel? If not he has some really interesting takes on the idea of the erdtree, great tree, crucible, grafting and a lot of other stuff. But the specific ideas about the tree symbolism and real life examples of how the life cycle of trees seem to be used extensively in game.
The butterfly descriptions/symbolism and the character naming convention suggest Melina was the mysterious third child of Radagon-Marika, so I think she shows up later in the timeline rather than earlier.
i like this
The game definitly implies not everyone sees the erdtree as a glowing tree and those who cannot see grace say it out right. Im really interested on how the dlc will break some form of an "illusion" like the grace is rather than time travel
8:20 bro fell for the Golden Order propaganda
1:35:24 with the destined eeath sealed inside the elden ring stability is provided all things are born and withered through time. With the fragment of destined death stolen and unsealed there is a glitch in the order. That glitch started when Marika decide to cast away the rune of death from Elden ring and give it to maliketh. Also with that action everyone in lands between is condemned to live even if his body dies. It's that simple okam razor theory will help us understand more things about the lore I think
@17:10 The Greattree and the Crucible are the same, but the Erdtree is the result of the Grafting of the Crucible when Marika was growing her own sacred tree; this is why the Erdtree doesn't match the appearance of the tree depicted on the Sacred Icon Shield, which is itself highly important to understanding the sacred trinities of thr lore.
Furthermore, there's a statue in Leyndell of Marika standing on a crown-sprouting stump, as she prunes the Grafted Scions of her Erdtree -- Grafted Scions here being the proper botany use of the term, not the parallel abomination of flesh on display in the Game.
The Question of whether the Erdtree is the Crucible or whether it came from it, is a moot one -- they are both true.
In fact, the absolute truth of what the Crucible is in truth is displayed to us as we battle Radagon: the Stone Platform that we battle upon is the fossilized stump of the tree that was cut down and the Erdtree grew from; ergo the origin of the "Crucible Axe," where the "Spear" would have been employed, as Elphrael is, in the form of a brace with which the young tree could could grow.
"When Marika was growing her own sacred tree."
Must have missed that cutscene. When do we see this bit of horticulture take place?
About crucible and Erdtree, we know that the Crucible is a depiction of more chaotic sense of life.
The way I look at crucible/Edrtree is sort of literal. I think of the crucible as a giant pot Marika planted the Elden Ring in and the Erdtree grew out of it. So the only way the crucible energies exist is through the medium of the Erdtree. Thats why no independent sigil. Imo the Erdtree was born and Marika saw the giants having a way to kill it so for it to grow preeminent, giants had to go.
Also my personal belief is the Elden Ring itself is a foreign body introduced to the planet by the Greater Will to manage the Crucible (Placidusax era) so I definitely think it predates Godfrey.
Are you charred thermos? Where did bloodborne lore go?
No I'm not. Charred Thermos has deleted his youtube channel
@@LastProtagonist then where is it 💔
There is a line that states the Greatree and the Erdtrees roots met at one point, there really are not translation issues if it means something in the native language it means what it is saying. Translations can get insight but this constant idea that you can say something is a mistake in the game as a theory block makes little sense to me. Nevermind the reality that the greattree and the erd tree are very obviously the matter and spirit forms of the same thing, that eventually get merged. These landmasses are not unique they are tied to other parts of the world, this is not a continent nor a normal plane of time. Since DS1 it has been pretty clear to me we are adventuring through a world created through a fragment of memory or memory itself, such as the very idea in bloodborne that reality does not matter if we are conscious. all of the things we see and hear are memories of likely multiple people.