PiStormSTE: a new PiStorm board that fits inside the STE
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
- Kindly sponsored by PCBWay.com
PiStorm has come on leaps and bounds since I was last actively developing for the project. A new ST-specific repository has been set up by Cryptodad (on the Discord) and a lot of new work has gone in.
We've got accelerated high-resolution, high-colour HDMI graphics, virtual hard discs, real-time clock pass-throughs and the biggest breakthrough of all, 100% ST-RAM access speeds at long last on the Pi 3+ (these have been available for a while on the Pi 4).
There are maybe some tweaks needed to firmware still, but this is getting very close to a viable daily driver.
BUT, open case machines, specialist motherboards, or relocator gymnastics have been required to use the two or three board stack.
So I thought I'd do something about it. In this video I build a special STE-targetted version of the PiStorm hardware which allows a Pi3A+ or a modified (ethernet socket removed) Pi 4 to be fitted internally to the Atari STE.
Do have a look and join the PiStorm Discord if you'd like in on project.
Made in KiCAD. Open source, as normal.
This project can be ordered from my PCBWay community page: www.pcbway.com...
[[ Please note, I have specified latches rather than flipflops in this BOM as the lead time is much shorter. Through-hole components (1.27mm pin headers and 2.54mm receptacle) will need to be sourced separately and fitted yourself. ]]
PiStorm original (Amiga): github.com/cap...
PiStorm-Atari (firmware & software for the Pi): github.com/got...
PiStormSTE (now under the PiStorm Atari repository): github.com/got...
PiStorm Discord: / discord
BBAN Solutions ST disc images: bbansolutions....
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PCBWay offer PCB manufacture, CNC machining, sheet metal fabrication, 3D printing and injection moulding.
Check out their community of makers here: www.pcbway.com...
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ST version should be called "Pi-STorm
In 1991, I put a 68010 into my 1040STE, and was ~10% faster.
I'm sure I was the only person in the world who did this (the way I did it)...
I had to break a RECTANGULAR 68010 & socket off a donated circuit board... create my own adaptor poking MANY solid core wires through a SQUARE of plastic and bending them around... the connected all wires appropriately to rectangular socket. Hook it all up by jamming fake into SQUARE socket and ensuring each wire didn't stray into neighbor's connector, add RECTANGULAR 68010 to other end... and even though my CPU was now ~6 INCHES AWAY from the motherboard... it worked!!!
Just like you, I couldn't close my case with all shielding and keyboard.
Since I know the STE can survive with the CPU being so far away from the socket, so I was SURE you'd find a workable and elegant solution.
Nice project, gorgeous workmanship!
(BTW, for anyone curious, the 68010 is pin-for-pin compatible with 68000, which is why this worked. Wouldn't work with anything else)
What patience! And these things in 1991 wouldn't have been throw-away components like these days. Great effort. :)
Love that your giving some love to the STE . Underrated machine
Many thanks!
I made 100 kickstart PCBs for Amiga, with 29F800 chips on an evening using only hot air on pre tined boards, but I have a handmade tool to keep the chip on place. A tool I use even for repairs 😊
Cool! Yes, I think I should have perservered with it and tried to get a technique going.
Are you that RetroFletch dude?
@@wishusknight3009 Not I, sorry!
Just need people to sell these ready made at a sensible price
I've made this project available on my PCBWay projects page: www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/PiStorm_STE_v1_0_df288de0.html
interesting progress! the STe has been more of a timecapsule which makes it perfect for demos. so looking forward how this progress.
This looks really cool!
Delicious, this needs completing, I would definitely have a couple, thanks Mike 🇬🇧
Absolutely amazing, how far this project has come along. Who would ever have thought this was possible back, at the launch of the AtariST.
I'm building this soon! I've submitted an order to PCBWay and ordered the parts from Mouser. One issue was that (if memory serves) the 22uF caps listed in the BOM weren't available so I switched to an equivalent. Not really a big deal as alternatives are plentiful. I've managed to find the 1.27mm pin headers on eBay. I guess I just need the female header for the Pi GPIO. I may have some in my parts bin but if I don't they are easy to find. I will be using a Raspberry Pi 4 for my build. Can't wait to have a super charged STe! 😊
Let us know how it goes!
I've assembled my PiStormSTE I just need to take care of the Raspberry Pi side of things! Hopefully I will start testing it out within a few days! Can't wait to see what it can do! 🎉🎉🎉
Best of luck. Sadly I just don't have the time to really sit down and work on these the moment, so they're still very much alpha stage.
@@thetechnoshed Thanks! :-) I'm looking forward to just seeing what it can do. I need to dig out my Atari STe and Christmas preparations have gotten in the way a little but hopefully the next few days will present an opportunity to start testing it out! :-)
That’s so cool! Thanks for the update. I guess it’s possible to get a matching ultra short HDMI Adapter …
Who ever is working on the RPi side, I suggest compiling a Real Time Kernel (as smbaker did for his direct access floppy controller). As for the the "display out",on the RPi 4 any of HDMI0, HDMI1 or USBC can be used, but my suggestion is to rework the CPU adaptor board so that _any_ RPi would allow HDMI cable to pass down the side of the RAM between the floppy drive. Combined with a downward GPIO connector, you would also have more clearance for any RPi fan & heatsink solutions (like the minitower) and even a RPi 5. That chip on the back of the RPi 3A is the RAM, and its "hot" because its directly opposite the CPU. If you better manage the heat on the RPi, you can get it to run faster and avoid any throttling. Together with RT Kernel you should be able to get a 100% bus arbitration without the need to bump the speed up on _any_ RPi. Also , if the RPi is oriented the other way, its is easier to support it with plastic / nolathane standoffs, and the 4x USB & Ethernet connectors can be better routed to the back / left of the case without having to deal with the floppy drive, while the sdcard (via an extender) could be routed "closer to the floppy" edge of the case.
I'm not sure there's the clearance to go for an underside mount. Unless the Pi's pins were directly soldered onto the board, perhaps?
@@thetechnoshed look at some of the RPi RTC boards, they _sandwich_ to the GPIO. Also (I am pretty sure) I have seen some RPi HAT's use a "pass-through" (half height) GPIO connector.
@@thetechnoshed Also, it just occurred to me now, instead of slotting the CPU adapter for the keyboard support post, you could get better physical adapter support if you use a hole instead, possibly one that could "wedge" on the support (its fatter at the bottom is it not?)
@@thetechnoshed Since the connection between PiSTorm and RPi is done via GPIO, I wonder what would be the signal loss if you would use some not very long flat cable instead of pin2pin connection?
LOVE It! This is the coolest. Upgraded Your STE to TT/Falcon level. Now you can multitask! Greetings! I wonder if It could run Doom playable!?
I think the performace is roughly on a par with my 50MHz Falcon and sadly Doom is a bit of a slideshow on that (3-4fps?). That said the memory access is much quicker and perhaps if using the HDMI screen we may be able to get it up to 10? :)
very cool stuff hope can get one of this soon :)
Very cool work, both of you! =D Brilliant!
Thanks Gadget! :)
Great Project 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼.
What about using a Computer Module 4 (CM4) with a little adapter containing your connectors needed (hdmi, usb)
This gives you a lot of Space. I use it on my A1200 @2.2Ghz.
I think that's closer to the PiStorm32 work Claude's doing. It would certainly solve a number of problems but at the expense of basically starting with no prior art in the firmware and software side. A much bigger project in other words.
I'm an Atari STE owner, once you replace the original 1980's CPU with a PiStorm and are using a 1.2 GHz 64-bit quad core ARM Cortex-A53 processor, is the result an Atari STE running TOS 2.06 or something else?
Is the something else akin to the Star Trek episode where the 1977 launched voyager probe meets a damaged alien probe and they combine with a mission to explore space and destroy all imperfect life forms?
Are we discussing the future manufacture of Atari STE motherboards and cases with built in SSDs, SD card readers and PiStormSTE and the relaunch of the Home Computer running from the coffee table on the living room HDTV rather than a PC set up in a spare bedroom office?
31:35 - a bit faster than ATARI TT with ST RAM.
I noted: 1,92 for STe, 3,90 for Mega STe, 11,21 for Falcon (any resolution) & 19,60 for TT.
You'd have all the room you want by putting the pi connector on the bottom of your board.
The connector would have to be slim or you could extend the socket adaptor to raise your board.
By putting on bottom, you'd have to flip the pi, which moves the ports the right direction.
If you then move the connector closer to the socket on your board, you'd be exactly in the empty space beside the SIMMs.
You'd get everything you wanted 🙂, but redoing your board is probably be too much effort. 😕
I just discovered your project, so maybe you've already tried this option and many more.
Great work!
I did look at that (I 3D-printed a number of different board shapes and 'fitted' the Pi to it to test. IIRC a bottom-mount would bottom out against the chips beneath. The Board itself is only just a smidge higher than the PLCC socket it's plugging into, and if you remove the plastic spacers on the pin headers (which is something I have in the pipeline), then it's lower still. I did get some low-profile SIMMs, which will help, I think, but they need a repair video first :)
Really kool Idea really want an hdmi output...why not use a gpio ribbon cable to place the rpi over to the right more and use some pcb rubber feet on the pi?
Absolutly brilliant.
I want want want want want! 😊
Brilliant David, very impressive, I will order or somehow obtain one, just seen on the Discord that Derek is potentially going to order some boards so will try that route, I am keen to join in and test and help where I can.
Many thanks. I will try to set up a PCBWay project page with BOM, but it will definitely be more expensive than someone doing a shared order. :)
Take my money David!! :)
Emu68 core may be a good rout for performance. On the Amiga it is JIT emulating literally 20x the speed of the interpretive Musashi on linux. That may give a lot of room for hitting the timing you need.
Great stuff, very exciting indeed.
Many thanks! I really need to drop one of your kindly supplied hard disc images into it, don't I?
Fantastic!
Amazing!
Just one question though - since the Pi also emulates memory, why don't you remove A SIMM or two near the Pi so you'll have the space that you need for HDMI?
I think they need to be paired, but when I tried briefly with the closest slot and the next but one removed I didn't get a it to boot. I'm not sure which combination is supported, but I didn't really have time to perserve with it, unfortunately.
While I've socketed my STFM, I'm not sure if I will risk socketing my STE. I'm pretty sure my skills aren't up to it and that I probably can't do it without damage to the CPU.
Awesome!!!
i have one spare STe right for pistorm, thanks
A (rhetorical?) question about Bus Arbitration: how did they get CT2 / CT60 / CT63 to run 50-100Mhz on a Falcon, or 32-50Mhz 020-040 to work on STFM / STE ?
I'm not sure I understand the question -- the speed of the external board isn't related to bus arb. Bus arb is a requirement to use an ST (in any meaningful way -- I started PiStormST development by simply removing all DMA devices from EmuTOS), but not a brake on speed.
@@thetechnoshed ok, so I am guessing that the Bus Arbitration issues you are talking about in the video are related to re-introducing the DMA devices back into EmuTOS .. I still believe your (initial) best bet is to step up to a Real Time Linux Kernel on the RPi, which should allow even RPi2 / Zero to work properly, as it significantly improves GPIO response and timings
@@paulwratt no, the bus arbitration issues are just about getting the timings right so chips are serviced when they expect to be and no lines are stepped on. It’s a bit of a moveable feast as STE owners have known since the days of ‘bad DMA’! We’ve come on a long way since my no-DMA trials a year ago, but DMA hasn’t been the focus of the development effort either, memory transfer speed has. I had a Pi 0 2 running at 3.7Mb/s yesterday. 👍
Nice update, could you have tried the HDMI with SIMMs in slots 2&4 removed, though ultimately would you need the 4MB ST-RAM installed even though the ALT-RAM is available?
I did briefly try it with two SIMMs removed, but I wasn't sure which one was slot one and the configuration I tried didn't work, unfortunately. :(
The slot closest to the front is one of the slots that _needs_ to be populated unfortunately.
Maybe snake that buffer down a bit to miss the lan connector ?
Just out of sheer curiosity, why not use a compute module 4?
pcdway, as promoter, could not be possible, to get all the parts needed in there catalogue pick and place parts, so readymade board maybe just external plugs and connectors soldering on your self
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I know Claude (the PiStorm originator) has done work with compute models on the 32-bit Amigas. All the dev work for ST has been with the PiStorm classic board, so this first custom-ST design is based on that work.
I wonder if a bit more secure mounting solution could be achieved using the (missing) blitter socket?
I think it's pretty secure as things stand. There's a mounting hole to allow a peg to be fitted to the left of the board if needed and the Pi itself has mounting holes for taller pegs at the back. I'm not sure anythign else would be required unless you're in a high-vibration environment. :)
I also wonder if the PiStorm 600 may be usable here? Though at first glance I would be willing to bet it might not fit mechanically. A built for purpose unit is always the way to go though.
Works differently. It's a clip-over-the-chip system, IIRC, which won't work as most STEs are sockets. Also, I suspect, it means it'll only work on a system with no bus arbitration as it'll need to keep the on-board chip quiescent by means of asserting BGACK. This is speculation on my part, but I had to go through the same though process with DFB1.
Great Work - could you do a Frontbench ?
Sorry, I ran out of time in that video -- my software setup isn't quite complete. I'll try to do a follow-up with benchmarks and a bit of a background to the design.
Very interesting the new pi5 has the Ethernet port on the other side of the board that might be a better fit if you removed the USB port
Pi 5 uses PCI-e based GPIO so would not be suitable for PiStorm in is current guise. The throughput of PCI-e is very high, but the latency is much worse than on the Pi3. The Pi4 is just about the limit for a GPIO-based interface, I think.
Will this work with a Mega ST (not STe)?
I think the Mega ST has a DIP CPU, so the original PiStorm for the Amiga 500 would be the solution there.
Why not use spacers between the top and bottom of case to get the height you need then a piece of trim to fill the gap?
Like platform shoes for your STE?
Nice mug :p
Any updates?
pcdway, as promoter, could not be possible, gett all the parts needed in there catalogue pick and place parts, so readymade board maybe just extatal plugs and connectors soldering on
They could supply and fit all the SMT components, but the lead time on the flip-flops was very long. If I had used the latches instead (373s) then I would only have needed to fit the through-hole components.
Hmm.. somehow I can't make it to work (it's not my first project and I'm familiar with electronics). I've built the board and connected PI (2W for now). Uploaded firmware. Downloaded disk images, copied configs etc. When I start emulator in terminal console - it reports working. When inserted into my STE - it doesn't boot up. Do I miss some steps? Does emulator start automatically or I need to run it from the console? ah.. memory test continuously gives me data mismatch errors in all the test lines
ataritest should return 100% success, else you've no hope. Even if it does return 100%, there may still be problems! It's sadly not plug-and-play yet. Each config needs fine tuning. The emulator does not, normally, autostart.
Is there a way to stick the chip down and then solder the pins.
You could maybe use a very thing double sided tape, but I think you'd have to be super exact with your initial positioning. Pick and place machines use glue, but they're very accurate!
Hmm, maybe I could squeeze this into my OG 520ST. Do you need TOS 2.06 / EMUTos (is a TOS decoder needed for older ST's?) or is the TOS installed on the Pi sd card?
The standard Amiga 500 PiStorm might fit the 'short' ST, I believe. Its CPU socket is in a much more friendly position than the majority of STF(M)s. TOS can be booted from the original chips, but also booted from the Pi itself. If you have TOS1.x on board, you'd want to do the latter as otherwise you'll get little support for the new features.
@@thetechnoshed got it! Pistorm firmware is different from the ST version? I have a Pistorm I was playing around with in my Amiga 1000. Might want to try that one out. Have you tried a Pizero2?
@@powerofvintage9442 Yes, a fully custom firmware and software suite. Cloneable from Steve's GitHub (github.com/gotaproblem/pistorm-atari)
Does it work with atari ST(f)(m) ? thanks for the job !
No, you'll be wanting the normal PiStorm hardware for that. The PiStorm ST project itself should also work on the FM.
are you able to use pistorm gfx chip?
The graphics subsystem does most of the GPIO work, AIUI.
any chance it can work with a 1040STFM?
You don't need the STE version for that, a straight forward Amiga PiStorm will do. See my other PiStorm videos for that. :)
Would this be able to be used with an Atari Mega STE?
I think the Mega STe uses a PGA style CPU, so something special would need to be designed.
There are a few reasons why I think it could be problematic. It would probably fit with the PSU removed, but the 16MHz mode may not be usable and the L2 cache may confuse things. It would be very interesting to try it out, though. :)
@@thetechnoshed I dont think there is a point to do it on MSTE, the goal of having faster CPU, HDD, graphics card is not as valid as on ST/STE. You can do it with era specific tools like SCSI HDD, VME NOVA graphics card, and the CPU of MSTE is plenty enough and you can add FPU as well...
And who does really need a fast ST in 2020s? But then again, the tinkering is fun, isnt it?
Can I order a completed model from you? W/o rpi?
I'm sorry, I don't have time to work on anything much at the moment, let alone to get into the manufacturing game! The board (without through-hole parts) should be orderable here, however: www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/PiStorm_STE_v1_0_df288de0.html
It's impressive to get it working. But for me it's emulation with extra steps. I think the limits of the old systems makes it interesting.
Yep, everyone places their boundries depending on what they value most. To me MiSTers & the like don't hit the spot, even if they're cycle exact.
How dare you to run Amiga Hardware in you Atari ST! Blasphemy!
Uh , in reality the Amiga technically is a 16 bit ATARI . Built by the same builder . With parts patented by ATARI . And the ST is a 16 bit version of the Commodore 64 . I grew up a long time ago and quit trashing the 64 . They're both better than a Wintel or Mac .
You missed an opportunity to call it PiSTErm.
Not sure if that needs an Inspector Clouseau accent or a Hull one!
Just de-solder the ethernet port on the pi4 :) You won't need it with WiFi anyway.
That's my take, but given how long I waited to get one (and I only have one!) I'm reluctant to damage it. I am truly terrible at desoldering and I don't want to toast my board, quite simply! :-D
@@thetechnoshed I just checked the shop, and it looks like the shortage is over to some degree, so you can get another one no big deal.
Amiga has had decent accelerators for years, why is the Atari ST so far behind?
I think because Atari ST owners are cheap.
There's fewer of us and the ST is a lot harder to expand. Both in terms of fitting expansions but also in the support and tolerances they require to work. The Amiga doesn't use a lot of the 68k's features. The ST does.