Rhett Shull people sometimes just want to argue lol btw having the $$ I would totally buy the old girl over the new one! and so would everyone else whether they admit it or not!! you should do two JRs and call them.specials just for fun lol
On the 59 the neck pickup sits directly on the Neck and the modern one has more space in between. I think this makes the most difference in sound. (Just for Neck and both for sure) :)
Yeah, people are starting to come full circle and realize what some of us have known all along: lower output pickups sound much better than modern hot ones. For years I've been shaking my head at the overwound pickup madness that took people over in the 80s and for decades made so many people swap out all the wonderful vintage pickups in their guitars for sterile sounding characterless high output ones.
@@MrEddie-gf3yg I actually just go by the sound of the pickup rather than seeking out specific output range, but it turns out that the ones my ears tend to favour are always less than around 9 or 10k, some very low. I mostly just buy cheap vintage guitars that have original pickups that sound good to my ears and leave those pickups in. The guitars I've owned from around the 80s that had hot pickups like Dimarzio Super Distortions just sounded like mud to my ears and I'd end up hardly ever playing them.
I dont really have an issue with ho pickups, but those active emg pickups on anything shy of a professionally produced metallica album sound like shit, and shame on james kirk kerry king and Jeff hanneman for pushing those shitty sounding pickups back when emg didnt have a stranglehold on the metal guitar market
The 59 sounds better for sure, but I would be curious to hear some lower output pickups in the 2017 to see if that makes up the difference. The 59’s pickups just sounded incredibly sweet and clear
Rhett, I bought a 2018 Les Paul Special yesterday based on your tones from this video. Amazing guitar and the P90s offer a completely different tonal palette than my humbucker equipped Gibsons or single coil Fenders. I forgot how much I enjoy the articulation, and growl, from a phenomenal set of Gibson P90s. This was a great video and I’m really enjoying your channel. Thanks!
The neck pup is in a different location on the 2017. I liked the tone of the '59 - if I had the money, the playability issue wouldn't bother me. I'd adapt my playing to it, if that makes any sense.
The pickup location and the neck joint has been modified to be stronger. My guess is that the tiny neck joint is still a little iffy but that's the breaks. My guess is Gibson felt it could not responsibly construct these guitars and SGs as they did back in the 50s - early 60s. They were right.
Later '59 and '60 Specials have a neck joint and pickup placement like the '17. Bridge/neck angles in the 50's are all over the map. They were handmade, after all.
How much of that “mojo” is just a mental thing. Knowing it’s a 59 can just create preconceived feelings about it. If you hadn’t known it was a 59, would you have felt the same about it?
Well, the '59 there could be $140,000 if the store wants.....no one is going to buy it for either amount. I was interested in buying a '59 a few years ago when I thought I had more money than I actually did. Going price seemed to be around $5,000....maybe $6,000 - $7,000 for a really clean one.
Righteous Guitars is a wonderful shop. Its about 20 min from my in-laws so I try to sneak over when we are up visiting family. Thanks for the demo. That '59 is a pretty sweet guitar...
The microtonal differences aside, just the sound of P90s in either guitar through a nice amp is, quite simply to my ears, the sound of heaven. Mahalos for the demo!
As about every 4th commenter has noted, the neck pickups are placed differently. My research shows Gibson's early placement of the neck pickup being almost at the neck's heel was because it sounded better the closer it got to the neck. But as units were sold, Gibson discovered some dissatisfactions with buyers because the neck tenon was pretty seriously cut into to accommodate the neck p/u placement making for noticeable instability (try playing a cowboy chord on any "close neck p/u") Special and you'll sound like you hit a chorus pedal; AND contributed to easy breakage where the neck meets the body. The other thing to mention about the p/u placement and the routed tenon is that it subtly reduced sustain, but that's really splitting the hairs. As far as the comparative tones go, yes, the aged/degaussed pickups on the 59 are (and I think this may be the word everyone's been searching for) more articulate. There's noticeable string separation in chords, a burnished top end, and detail that's just missing in the 2017. The 2017's are toppy, harsh, and hairy. As many have noted, there are quite a number of p/u winders who make an underwound P-90, and it's my guess that a pickup swap would put the 2017 a lot closer to the '59 in tone, gain, detail, yadda. Can't really speak to the wraparound angle difference, since just about every Gibson I've ever owned or played had it's own specific placement. I'd LIKE to think that determining the proper placement/angle is a QC issue that Gibson makes an effort to address on every guitar that uses one, but who am I kidding? They're probably drilled by a CNC machine regardless of any hopeful exactitude, but I WILL say I've had a couple wraparound Juniors that were pretty much spot on, intonation-wise.
The thing that stands out for me is that the 59 would have been a regular line production guitar. The 17 was a custom. Even relative dollars, the 59 wasn't a $4000 guitar
This is easy, just grab a friend and swing them both like axes at each other as hard as you can and whichever one cuts the other in half is clearly the better guitar.
Both sounded pretty close to my ears up until the 3rd riff you played and I could definitely hear the difference between them, the '59 had a certain airiness and clarity that made me smile. Good video my friend.
More beef in the 59' and crispy top end on those modern P-90's. Once set up though, the 59' will walk all over the modern Les, or at least skip to my lou. Actually they are both great and the modern one could be made to sound more like the 59' if you were inclined. I can wait to get this or a Jr.(Modern or Vintage) as I think they are a badass tool for Rockn'Roll. I accidentally ended(long story) up with J.Geil's 1950 Gibson ES-125 and the P-90 pickup on it is absolutely the sweetest pickup Ive ever played. Unbelievable! Thanks for doing such a bare bones, no-nonsense demo. Short and sweet and to the point in a world where all we do is burn time. Every-once in a while something valuable comes along and you nailed it. Thanks to Rick Beato for turning me onto you. Speaking of which, Ive reached out to him and haven't heard back on that new instructional platform he is starting. Is he just too busy? Love his content and he makes you feel like he's your friend(who just happens to have a book to sell) Ha!-Take care and love the videos-Scott
Mojo , what an explanatory understandable term . THe definition of sound is more distinct on the 59 ,each string stands out more individually when all strings are strummed.
Just watched your comparison of the Specials. Thanks for the good info. I have a 2011 Special and it's my 'go to' when I want that sweet bluesy sound from P90's. While the tested guitars have binding on the neck, mine doesn't BUT it does have an Ebony fretboard and it does feel better than Rosewood, at least to me. You are spot on with the sweeter neck pickup on the 59 but I do feel the placement has a lot to do with that sweetness since it is farther up from the bridge. Just for the record... A Double Cut guitar is a joy to play!
Thank you for doing a really good comparison here. You’ve got the Custom Shop sounding great, but not as good as the 59. I have multiple vintage P-90 Gibson’s, and yes, that mojo is real. I was a disbeliever until I bought my fist one. Watch out, because it gets addictive. There is certainly nothing wrong with refretting a vintage guitar if it’s necessary. Generally, it doesn’t hurt the value much if the old frets are gone. I’ve had 2 of my Juniors pleck’d, and then set up perfectly afterward. Once they’re made right, they absolutely play as good as you could want. I realize that it’s hard for a lot of people to have access to a vintage Gibson, but a good one is a truly special experience.
Just played the latest Special DC and it’s really really good. I thought the pups cut much better than on my 2006 Special. The DC brings the neck pup away from the neck which will have some interesting effect as well
I listened to the video while perusing the comments. To be fair, the subtle difference was just that, subtle. Possibly the 2017 needs a little break in.
I cant really fathom why the p90 pickup isnt way more popular than it is. Its wonderful for all styles in any configuration and works great in solid and semi hollows. I routed out my oldish Gibson for humbuckets in the 80s abd it didnt take me long to realise that 'the tone' I was aiming for was actually just a different amp. Ho hum.
First I need to thank you for the guitar lesson, I forgot how to play your opening Stones song. You do play very well. I understand what you mean with Mojo. I have a few Les Paul's and Strats, of all 20 plugs of my guitars I always got to my White Strat. I can't put it into words but it has a great connection to me. I'm am not a goofy kid. I play professionally and repair my guitars and add creative wiring. The favorite Strat just has " IT " and words leave me at a loss. Thank you for a great video.
Yeah I agree the Fretboard on the 59 is definitely a treat to behold. The 59 has the Mojo for sure and the difference not noted is the Neck Pickup on the 59 is closer to the fretboard. I personally believe there is a sweet spot in that area the older P90's are also a bit fuller. Saying that if the 17 is played and maintained for 60 years I believe it will also kick some serioius arse.
Back in the 50s Gibson didn't have separate neck and bridge pickups, they were just pickups. They grabbed a couple of out of a bin and wired them up as they built the guitar. That's why the neck output seems higher. It might actually be higher output because pickup winders with counters on them either didn't exist or the plant in Kalamazoo didn't use them.
Nicely recorded. To me the vintage has more clarity. The modern one is fuzzy and less “musical” but I have owned a 59 Junior and sold it because I too feel more comfortable with my Custom Shop Special.
I noticed that the neck pickup is butted up against the fretboard on the ‘59 and on the ‘17 the neck pickup is moved further toward the bridge. I’m guessing that also affects the overall sound/tone. Both of them are beauty’s.
What I really want to know is, does the benefit of the '59 truly justify paying $10,000 more, if you're just an average Joe? It's better, ok. Is it $10,000 better. Is that "mojo" worth 10K?? Would YOU pay 10K more for the ineffable mojo you feel? (I don't know how much money you have, but just imagine you're a middle-class guitar player/performer). Or even, if you're not actually planning on buying the guitar, would you, after playing both guitars, come away saying, "The '59 is completely worth $10,000 more"? Sorry if I sound a little skeptical, but it seems to me that the premium placed on "vintage" gear these days is WAY out of proportion with any real or subjective benefits. People sell gear guitars from the 50s, 60s, and 70s for unbelievably high prices, even when the things are junkers.
Definitely the 59! I didn’t like how hot the pick ups were on the 2017. Guitar with good tone is always worth some TLC in order to bring it to a place where it’s playable. I also completely agree about being a player not a collector.
Or, to be more specific... a 1960 reissue. In 1961, Gibson changed the name to "SG" Special DC as a lead up to the 1963 SG model (which in 1961 was being called a Les Paul, which it clearly wasn't).
Wow!!! Look at the difference in the pickup positioning!! I just noticed this at the 4:30 mark. No wonder the '59 neck pickup sounds so creamy. It is closer to the fretboard...by far.
The spacing between the pickups are different and the rosewood is different. You will notice a difference on clean, and a tiny little bit when distorted.
Hey Rhett, I personally prefer my own 1959 LP Special I bought at a pawn shop on Harry Hines in Dallas in 1981 for $350... Oh Yeah!!! Put through my 1972 DR-103 Hiwatt it is mind blowing. I don’t play venues where I can really open that up too much anymore and the last time at home I thought I was going to lose the windows on my house! Try one as a slide guitar platform and hold on for your life.
The neck pickup on the 59 looks like it is mounted closer to the neck. Also, it looks like the 59 has either an ebony fretboard or the rosewood is much darker.
The neck pickup on the 59 is closer to the neck joint. Makes it weaker which is probably why the re-issue has it moved slightly closer to the bridge. And as these are painted guitars, is the 2017 one piece mahogany or joined and glued down the center? From someone who mounted a second pickup on a 1959 Junior (and who wondered whether the neck would fail at the new pickup pocket; it didn't)
There's a massive difference between the 59 and the 17. I had a 59 Junior... sold it in a moment of madness and mistakenly assumed that I would be able to get something close from either the Custom-Shop or Collings. I made a big mistake.
The mojo i usually hear from vintage guitars is usually in the clarity of the notes and the punchiness of the tone (a more present mid tone). This probably only comes from the wood aging naturally over time which you obviously cant replicate with new instruments. That being said i still like the 2017 but and i agree the pickups were hotter than the vintage guitar and thats not necessarily a good thing but you can always change pickups.
Nick Spann I've owned a '55 LP and a' 58 LP Special. And played lots of newer ones. You can change out the pups. But it's more than just the aging of the wood. Those trees are Gone. The... Density... of the Mahogany and the Density of the Rosewood is nowhere near the same. The fretboard on the '59 is darker because it is Better Rosewood, not because someone played and sweated on it for years. Those Craftsmen are gone. I live here in Nashville for 28 years, have known many people who have worked for Gibson and the guitars, even Custom Shop are nowhere near the workmanship of the Vintage guitars. That's including the fact that now as then some are just better than others, just like Martins, Neumann, API, Neve. I'm sure you're aware of all this, but most who read this do not. The truth is that the Only real question is... Does anyone Have $15,000 to spend? Lol Also I've been a P-90 guy since the first time I heard them in the early '70's. They do not respond like Humbuckers and most people Don't know how to work them. Actually a good pair of P-90's have a Way wider range of tones than Humbuckers. Of course, if you are just going to run them into distortion pedals and heavy Amp distortion, they are wasted. Take care.
Great video. I got a 56 Jr. When I was 12 in 1956. I never had a Special but have a Collings 290 that I've been using for 3 years. Try one before you get a Gibson. Check out the RUclips demos. Thanks for the video.
The neck pickups are sitting in different positions.The 59' is almost flush on the neck and the 17' is about an inch away from the neck! That will make a difference to the sound for sure!
Yep they moved the neck pickup back after the first year of production because they kept snapping. The pickup placement on the original '59 is right where the neck tenon is, which weakens the joint. The pickup needs to be further back on a double cut as compared to single cut
with it being further north and natural degauzing, that would explain it being warmer. They may even have alnico 3 magnets too. Back then there wasn't much in the way of QC in pickup production leading some PAF sounding amazing and others being flat sounding.
This is a cool shoot out. To me, The '59 sounded warmer over all. Thing i was looking for was 'flex' in the neck, affecting tuning stability. No crazy stage moves of course but the '59 seemed stable. Wife bought me a CopyCat copy i put a Gibson clear coil (ala Mike Campbell) in the br slot under a dog ear cover but the neck would drift. To be honest, I'd just look for an old style '57 type SB Jr and ride the tone control.
Max; Great comment. I wonder if those two guitars are even remotely set up similarly. Pickup height really alters tone. I wonder if both these guitar's strings are identical with identical play time on them. The old Gibby has had a lot of chances to be set up properly over its lifetime. The new Gibby may still just have its A W F U L factory set up. Most off the rack Gibbys are damn near un-playable with nut heights so high a guy might as well just go to Wal-mart and get a First Act if they actually intend to gig on the axe. Makes me wonder: Do owners of these $4 grand Gibbys actually GIG nightly on these guitars? or are they just toys for guy's man-caves. The nuts look like they are cut for a slide player. lol...(over .050 on the big E)..lol..fret an F and see how sharp it is on a tuner.
They do sound different from my end. They're both fantastic. The 2017 has a little more I don't know what in the new pickups. Thanks for the demo bro!!!.
God that 59 ISSS Rock n Roll Incarnate!!! As usual the old wood and pickups mellow the guitar out without really losing frequency or anything. Similar to old vs new strats and teles. It is hard to describe the difference, like you say, but when you say the tone is "rounder" I hear exactly what you are talking about and I think maybe the wave is rounder. I'm sure you could get closer with after market pickups, or maybe if you stuck the new one under your bed for 60 years. Lol.
I love les paul specials and I bought one by accident in 1991 and still have it, ANYWAY does anyone know why on the single cut away models where the cut away part meets with the end of the neck, On some there is a little sliver of the cut-away remaining and on others it's flush right to the edge of neck and no sliver of the cut-away remaining , who knows what I'm talking about ? thanks !
I've never played an old guitar that feels better than a new one... Its hilarious how people say "if it was good enough for Hendrix is good enough for me" ... then his touring van or his TV are also good enough for you? Mojo... yes! . But performance is always better on a new guitar. Good video! Hopefully performers snap out of that romantic view... leave that to the collectors.
Is it me or does the 59 have a slightly more rounded body than the reissues? At least the non-CS LP specials seem to have a sharper edge/smaller edge radius than the old ones.
Rhett 1st Great playing. The 59 to my ears Barring the RUclips compression is more airy and open which I would contribute to the wood being older and not just 60 years probably a lot longer. It helps that you are so consistent with what you play and how. Stellar. The 2017 did sound great just a little more compressed and tight
I have a 65 Gibson melody maker. It has been modded so it wasn’t expensive. And it has a humbucker and a wrap around tail piece. It needs a refret but has serious mojo
I am fortunate enough to have a '58 Jr TV (The double cut) so I'm predisposed to liking the '59 but I was shocked by how much more I like it. Even if I could afford the 2017 I don't think I'd buy it. Thanks for posting.
The 59 sounded more seasoned, a bit more bloom on the neck pickup, and had a tad more presence with great break up . Still the 2017 was excellent too, and subjective to whether it was almost identical to the 59.
They don't even sound like the same model of guitar. The vintage one sounds amazing and new one sounds stale, stiff and forgettable. I'd say the '59 is a $10k guitar, no problem.
Excellent review, 59 has a warmer sound , where as 2017 is brighter and punchier, one thing I noticed is the bridge angle on the 59 is different, that would give the guitar are different feel and tone 😎🎶🎶🎶
I scored a used Edwards copy of the LP Special with Lollar Sean Costello P-90s for $300. It needed a fret dress and setup, but totally worth it. I put in a compensated wraparound bridge and locking tuners. I don't think you could wish for a better LP Special.. Not many in the US. If you see one, grab it and don't let go.
59 to play at home and studio, 2017 to tour with. I once bought a new LP tradition and I was constantly worried about getting it scratched, so always played a bit intimidated. Could be having the issue playing the 59? I ended up selling the traditional and bought a used LP from a pawn shop. Who cares if I put a few dings in it.... It felt so right.
One more reason I prefer the single cut. The neck pickup is up against the fretboard. As for tone, there has to be a reason why a vintage guitar commands the bucks. The question everyone who can afford one asks, is it worth it to me? P90 change on a new model might be interesting. Last non Gibson P90 set I had was SD on a Guild Blues 90, and they were pretty hot, but great sounding.
I just picked up a 2006 LP jr Custom Shop Historic with a ‘58 neck profile. Having owned both new and old LPs , as well as a few different vintage Epiphone Coronets, the guitar I just bought is as good as any of them. Sounds as good as or better than all of them, and plays like a dream. I love old guitars, don’t get me wrong. But it’s all about what happens when it’s in your hands and plugged in. They’re all great. Mostly not $14k great, though.
It would have been helpful to the discussion if you had noted and measured the different placement of the neck pickup. It is a significant difference, it seems about three-quarters of an inch, and would that not change the node or harmonics it is sensing? Did Gibson change this to "make it easier to play", or to improve the instrument? Thank you.
The neck pickup looks closer to the fretboard on the 1959….is the pickup location different? Or is the fretboard longer on the 1959? Both sound amazing. Great playing…as always!
It sounds to my ear like to 59 has more harmonic weight within every note the 17 still sounds great but there's a definite difference the 17 sounds lesser somehow.. awesome video rhett you make some great points for both guitars
Tbh it sounds like there is slight mic clipping on the 2017. Like the output is just a tad higher and sent the previously set up mic over the red line. At least that is what it sounds like to me.
How 'bout the neck P-up placement? the '59 looks like it's where it's "supposed" to be the '17 is where it doesn't cut into the neck tenon so much . ?????
Excellent demo! You can, or you should, see that the 2017 model drops the neck pickup down about an inch from the end of the neck; that's a real though minor difference but it will probably make the newer one be a tiny little bit more jangly than the old one. Otherwise they seem practically identical. Maybe the newer one has a stronger neck joint (because the pickup rout does not interrupt it) I didn't hear any kind of $10K difference, but I'm on computer speakers. I have never owned one of those (I starting buying & selling guitars in 1970) for some unknown reason. I owned many red juniors (don't remember the years) with the baseball bat neck. Those were $100 guitars back then.
Rhett, please do more of these shootouts. You are fantastic and very consistent player and it is just awesome for comparing sounds of guitars :) Do more of these please, if you have access to cool guitars :)
My first video course, The Tone Course, is available now! Check it out here.
flatfiv.co/collections/rhett-shull/products/the-tone-course
Yes, I realize these are Les Paul Specials, not Jr’s. I misspoke while filming, everybody relax!
Need to update the description which also refers to them as "Jrs". :-)
Rhett Shull was the old one 10.000 $ or the new one
The 1959 was $14,000 and the 2017 was $4,000
Rhett Shull people sometimes just want to argue lol
btw having the $$ I would totally buy the old girl over the new one!
and so would everyone else whether they admit it or not!!
you should do two JRs and call them.specials just for fun lol
They are JR's with double cutaway. A les Paul special is basically a single cutaway Jr w two P90's.
As a collector I’d buy the 59. As a guitar player I don’t hear a 10K difference.
THIS
Yep. Save the bucks and make your own memories.
On the 59 the neck pickup sits directly on the Neck and the modern one has more space in between.
I think this makes the most difference in sound. (Just for Neck and both for sure) :)
100% this
Great video Rhett! That '59 sounded spectacular...
Buck and Evans thanks man!
Yes and the 2017 sounded awful.
as did the 2017
Buck And Evans nice work YOU do mate!
Yeah, people are starting to come full circle and realize what some of us have known all along: lower output pickups sound much better than modern hot ones. For years I've been shaking my head at the overwound pickup madness that took people over in the 80s and for decades made so many people swap out all the wonderful vintage pickups in their guitars for sterile sounding characterless high output ones.
^ This
@mk win What's the highest output reading that you'll take, 8.0k?
@@MrEddie-gf3yg I actually just go by the sound of the pickup rather than seeking out specific output range, but it turns out that the ones my ears tend to favour are always less than around 9 or 10k, some very low. I mostly just buy cheap vintage guitars that have original pickups that sound good to my ears and leave those pickups in. The guitars I've owned from around the 80s that had hot pickups like Dimarzio Super Distortions just sounded like mud to my ears and I'd end up hardly ever playing them.
I dont really have an issue with ho pickups, but those active emg pickups on anything shy of a professionally produced metallica album sound like shit, and shame on james kirk kerry king and Jeff hanneman for pushing those shitty sounding pickups back when emg didnt have a stranglehold on the metal guitar market
Yes! As Curtis Novak always says: a pickup is an input device, not an output device
The 59 sounds better for sure, but I would be curious to hear some lower output pickups in the 2017 to see if that makes up the difference. The 59’s pickups just sounded incredibly sweet and clear
The 59 definitely has an identity for sure. Tone is amazing! where the 2017 has more of a modern SG standard kinda tone.
Modern SG Standard also has an identity. If not, how can you say how does it sound?
Rhett, I bought a 2018 Les Paul Special yesterday based on your tones from this video. Amazing guitar and the P90s offer a completely different tonal palette than my humbucker equipped Gibsons or single coil Fenders. I forgot how much I enjoy the articulation, and growl, from a phenomenal set of Gibson P90s. This was a great video and I’m really enjoying your channel. Thanks!
The neck pup is in a different location on the 2017. I liked the tone of the '59 - if I had the money, the playability issue wouldn't bother me. I'd adapt my playing to it, if that makes any sense.
No mention of neck pickup placement?
Nobody seemed to pick up on that. 1st thing I noticed. Also, they sounded so close to each other that the difference didn't matter!
The pickup location and the neck joint has been modified to be stronger. My guess is that the tiny neck joint is still a little iffy but that's the breaks. My guess is Gibson felt it could not responsibly construct these guitars and SGs as they did back in the 50s - early 60s. They were right.
Yeah... I noticed that too, and the angle of the bridge.
Later '59 and '60 Specials have a neck joint and pickup placement like the '17.
Bridge/neck angles in the 50's are all over the map. They were handmade, after all.
How much of that “mojo” is just a mental thing. Knowing it’s a 59 can just create preconceived feelings about it. If you hadn’t known it was a 59, would you have felt the same about it?
The 59 pickup magnet are degaussed. That what makes old pickups more "rounded".
I'd get the 2017 and find some old pickups to put in it.
Love how much darker the 59s fretboard is.
The 59 definitely sounds better (it had a lot more bite and clarity to my ears), but $10000 better? Nope.
Thankfully '59s don't sell for anywhere near $10,000.....
Krausewitz. - the '59 here is $14k
Well, the '59 there could be $140,000 if the store wants.....no one is going to buy it for either amount. I was interested in buying a '59 a few years ago when I thought I had more money than I actually did. Going price seemed to be around $5,000....maybe $6,000 - $7,000 for a really clean one.
Krausewitz - Keep in mind that the market varies depending on your location.
Guitar tone doesn't have any cost at all.
Righteous Guitars is a wonderful shop. Its about 20 min from my in-laws so I try to sneak over when we are up visiting family. Thanks for the demo. That '59 is a pretty sweet guitar...
The microtonal differences aside, just the sound of P90s in either guitar through a nice amp is, quite simply to my ears, the sound of heaven. Mahalos for the demo!
Jon Komatsu P90s are where it's at!
there's a huge difference between the two guitars
SoKE DESTROYER maybe but one is not necessarily better than the other, just different.
neither i'm saying one is better, the pickups though is what i think makes all the difference
no man. It's the wood, not the pickups.
As about every 4th commenter has noted, the neck pickups are placed differently. My research shows Gibson's early placement of the neck pickup being almost at the neck's heel was because it sounded better the closer it got to the neck. But as units were sold, Gibson discovered some dissatisfactions with buyers because the neck tenon was pretty seriously cut into to accommodate the neck p/u placement making for noticeable instability (try playing a cowboy chord on any "close neck p/u") Special and you'll sound like you hit a chorus pedal; AND contributed to easy breakage where the neck meets the body.
The other thing to mention about the p/u placement and the routed tenon is that it subtly reduced sustain, but that's really splitting the hairs.
As far as the comparative tones go, yes, the aged/degaussed pickups on the 59 are (and I think this may be the word everyone's been searching for) more articulate. There's noticeable string separation in chords, a burnished top end, and detail that's just missing in the 2017. The 2017's are toppy, harsh, and hairy. As many have noted, there are quite a number of p/u winders who make an underwound P-90, and it's my guess that a pickup swap would put the 2017 a lot closer to the '59 in tone, gain, detail, yadda.
Can't really speak to the wraparound angle difference, since just about every Gibson I've ever owned or played had it's own specific placement. I'd LIKE to think that determining the proper placement/angle is a QC issue that Gibson makes an effort to address on every guitar that uses one, but who am I kidding? They're probably drilled by a CNC machine regardless of any hopeful exactitude, but I WILL say I've had a couple wraparound Juniors that were pretty much spot on, intonation-wise.
Yes
The thing that stands out for me is that the 59 would have been a regular line production guitar. The 17 was a custom. Even relative dollars, the 59 wasn't a $4000 guitar
Same with a 1959 reissue. It's just what was made by Gibson USA that year. In fact, it's the same thing for any custom shop reissue
In 1970, I bought my Gibson Les Paul Standard brand new in a music store for $275!
Really good point
This is easy, just grab a friend and swing them both like axes at each other as hard as you can and whichever one cuts the other in half is clearly the better guitar.
Both sounded pretty close to my ears up until the 3rd riff you played and I could definitely hear the difference between them, the '59 had a certain airiness and clarity that made me smile. Good video my friend.
Yes, 2:14 -2:30 is a big difference in sweetness
This is killer! I’d love to see the same with an ES-335. That’s my dream guitar.
Tyler Southern see my post.
I have a 1961 re-issue that may be my next one if I can get my hands on a real 61!
More beef in the 59' and crispy top end on those modern P-90's. Once set up though, the 59' will walk all over the modern Les, or at least skip to my lou. Actually they are both great and the modern one could be made to sound more like the 59' if you were inclined. I can wait to get this or a Jr.(Modern or Vintage) as I think they are a badass tool for Rockn'Roll. I accidentally ended(long story) up with J.Geil's 1950 Gibson ES-125 and the P-90 pickup on it is absolutely the sweetest pickup Ive ever played. Unbelievable! Thanks for doing such a bare bones, no-nonsense demo. Short and sweet and to the point in a world where all we do is burn time. Every-once in a while something valuable comes along and you nailed it. Thanks to Rick Beato for turning me onto you. Speaking of which, Ive reached out to him and haven't heard back on that new instructional platform he is starting. Is he just too busy? Love his content and he makes you feel like he's your friend(who just happens to have a book to sell) Ha!-Take care and love the videos-Scott
Mojo , what an explanatory understandable term . THe definition of sound is more distinct on the 59 ,each string stands out more individually when all strings are strummed.
Just watched your comparison of the Specials. Thanks for the good info. I have a 2011 Special and it's my 'go to' when I want that sweet bluesy sound from P90's. While the tested guitars have binding on the neck, mine doesn't BUT it does have an Ebony fretboard and it does feel better than Rosewood, at least to me. You are spot on with the sweeter neck pickup on the 59 but I do feel the placement has a lot to do with that sweetness since it is farther up from the bridge. Just for the record... A Double Cut guitar is a joy to play!
Thank you for doing a really good comparison here. You’ve got the Custom Shop sounding great, but not as good as the 59.
I have multiple vintage P-90 Gibson’s, and yes, that mojo is real. I was a disbeliever until I bought my fist one. Watch out, because it gets addictive.
There is certainly nothing wrong with refretting a vintage guitar if it’s necessary. Generally, it doesn’t hurt the value much if the old frets are gone. I’ve had 2 of my Juniors pleck’d, and then set up perfectly afterward. Once they’re made right, they absolutely play as good as you could want.
I realize that it’s hard for a lot of people to have access to a vintage Gibson, but a good one is a truly special experience.
Just played the latest Special DC and it’s really really good. I thought the pups cut much better than on my 2006 Special. The DC brings the neck pup away from the neck which will have some interesting effect as well
I listened to the video while perusing the comments. To be fair, the subtle difference was just that, subtle. Possibly the 2017 needs a little break in.
I cant really fathom why the p90 pickup isnt way more popular than it is. Its wonderful for all styles in any configuration and works great in solid and semi hollows. I routed out my oldish Gibson for humbuckets in the 80s abd it didnt take me long to realise that 'the tone' I was aiming for was actually just a different amp. Ho hum.
yeah they're definitely both really good, 59' just has that extra thing though. The pickups sound so much more bodied, warm, and rounded
More clairity in the 59, the new guitars sound more harsh and tinny sounding.
That is exactly my thought as well. I use to own a 59' Junior. Trading it was the biggest mistake of my life.
Same thoughts as well. 17 was tinier sounding
Can probably eq that out and you only notice it because they are being played next to each other.
Music Islife get that eq shit outta here haha
Darren Doxey that's what the tone controls on your amp are for, lol.
The mojo came across on the 59 in the video. Both sound great because of your playing. The overall sound, tone, magic of the 59 is sick!
First I need to thank you for the guitar lesson, I forgot how to play your opening Stones song. You do play very well. I understand what you mean with Mojo. I have a few Les Paul's and Strats, of all 20 plugs of my guitars I always got to my White Strat. I can't put it into words but it has a great connection to me. I'm am not a goofy kid.
I play professionally and repair my guitars and add creative wiring. The favorite Strat just has " IT " and words leave me at a loss. Thank you for a great video.
Incredible video. Congratulations. I just think You should use the same riffs to compare the tone
The vintage one has a Brazilian rosewood fretboard - the modern one has Indian rosewood. Many say this makes a difference in feel and tone. YMMV.
Yeah I agree the Fretboard on the 59 is definitely a treat to behold. The 59 has the Mojo for sure and the difference not noted is the Neck Pickup on the 59 is closer to the fretboard. I personally believe there is a sweet spot in that area the older P90's are also a bit fuller. Saying that if the 17 is played and maintained for 60 years I believe it will also kick some serioius arse.
Back in the 50s Gibson didn't have separate neck and bridge pickups, they were just pickups. They grabbed a couple of out of a bin and wired them up as they built the guitar. That's why the neck output seems higher. It might actually be higher output because pickup winders with counters on them either didn't exist or the plant in Kalamazoo didn't use them.
The 59's pick ups are magical!!!!! No comparison!
Thanks for teaching me "Slave"! Such a cool riff!!
Definitely preferred the sound of the '59, but it's probably just a slight difference in pickup construction more than age. Both cool guitars!
Wow! Love those models. I bought a 2019 honey Burst guitar center Gibson Paul Smith Special. P-90. My fave
Anyone out there, can you tell me what is the name of the song being played at 1:15 - 1:52 in this video ?
Nicely recorded. To me the vintage has more clarity. The modern one is fuzzy and less “musical” but I have owned a 59 Junior and sold it because I too feel more comfortable with my Custom Shop Special.
Since I've been loving you sounded incredible on the '59
Indeed it did
I noticed that the neck pickup is butted up against the fretboard on the ‘59 and on the ‘17 the neck pickup is moved further toward the bridge. I’m guessing that also affects the overall sound/tone.
Both of them are beauty’s.
What I really want to know is, does the benefit of the '59 truly justify paying $10,000 more, if you're just an average Joe? It's better, ok. Is it $10,000 better. Is that "mojo" worth 10K?? Would YOU pay 10K more for the ineffable mojo you feel? (I don't know how much money you have, but just imagine you're a middle-class guitar player/performer). Or even, if you're not actually planning on buying the guitar, would you, after playing both guitars, come away saying, "The '59 is completely worth $10,000 more"?
Sorry if I sound a little skeptical, but it seems to me that the premium placed on "vintage" gear these days is WAY out of proportion with any real or subjective benefits. People sell gear guitars from the 50s, 60s, and 70s for unbelievably high prices, even when the things are junkers.
Definitely the 59! I didn’t like how hot the pick ups were on the 2017. Guitar with good tone is always worth some TLC in order to bring it to a place where it’s playable. I also completely agree about being a player not a collector.
The '59 has the original style more extended neck/higher neck pickup placement. So the Historic is a 60's reissue?
Or, to be more specific... a 1960 reissue. In 1961, Gibson changed the name to "SG" Special DC as a lead up to the 1963 SG model (which in 1961 was being called a Les Paul, which it clearly wasn't).
Wow!!! Look at the difference in the pickup positioning!! I just noticed this at the 4:30 mark. No wonder the '59 neck pickup sounds so creamy. It is closer to the fretboard...by far.
The spacing between the pickups are different and the rosewood is different. You will notice a difference on clean, and a tiny little bit when distorted.
I have a '67 ES-345. It stands up against any modern ES I ever played or owned. Gauntlet thrown.
the diference is so big bro!! the 1959 is a monster!!!
Hey Rhett, I personally prefer my own 1959 LP Special I bought at a pawn shop on Harry Hines in Dallas in 1981 for $350... Oh Yeah!!! Put through my 1972 DR-103 Hiwatt it is mind blowing. I don’t play venues where I can really open that up too much anymore and the last time at home I thought I was going to lose the windows on my house! Try one as a slide guitar platform and hold on for your life.
60 years... and about an inch difference in the neck pickup placement and the angle of the tailpiece/bridge...? Very cool guitars and fun demo though.
The neck pickup on the 59 looks like it is mounted closer to the neck. Also, it looks like the 59 has either an ebony fretboard or the rosewood is much darker.
The neck pickup on the 59 is closer to the neck joint. Makes it weaker which is probably why the re-issue has it moved slightly closer to the bridge. And as these are painted guitars, is the 2017 one piece mahogany or joined and glued down the center?
From someone who mounted a second pickup on a 1959 Junior (and who wondered whether the neck would fail at the new pickup pocket; it didn't)
There's a massive difference between the 59 and the 17. I had a 59 Junior... sold it in a moment of madness and mistakenly assumed that I would be able to get something close from either the Custom-Shop or Collings. I made a big mistake.
Massive!! I'd question your vintage bias.
The mojo i usually hear from vintage guitars is usually in the clarity of the notes and the punchiness of the tone (a more present mid tone). This probably only comes from the wood aging naturally over time which you obviously cant replicate with new instruments. That being said i still like the 2017 but and i agree the pickups were hotter than the vintage guitar and thats not necessarily a good thing but you can always change pickups.
Nick Spann I've owned a '55 LP and a' 58 LP Special. And played lots of newer ones. You can change out the pups. But it's more than just the aging of the wood. Those trees are Gone. The... Density... of the Mahogany and the Density of the Rosewood is nowhere near the same. The fretboard on the '59 is darker because it is Better Rosewood, not because someone played and sweated on it for years. Those Craftsmen are gone. I live here in Nashville for 28 years, have known many people who have worked for Gibson and the guitars, even Custom Shop are nowhere near the workmanship of the Vintage guitars. That's including the fact that now as then some are just better than others, just like Martins, Neumann, API, Neve. I'm sure you're aware of all this, but most who read this do not. The truth is that the Only real question is... Does anyone Have $15,000 to spend? Lol Also I've been a P-90 guy since the first time I heard them in the early '70's. They do not respond like Humbuckers and most people Don't know how to work them. Actually a good pair of P-90's have a Way wider range of tones than Humbuckers. Of course, if you are just going to run them into distortion pedals and heavy Amp distortion, they are wasted. Take care.
Great video. I got a 56 Jr. When I was 12 in 1956. I never had a Special but have a Collings 290 that I've been using for 3 years. Try one before you get a Gibson. Check out the RUclips demos. Thanks for the video.
The neck pickups are sitting in different positions.The 59' is almost flush on the neck and the 17' is about an inch away from the neck! That will make a difference to the sound for sure!
The neck pickup position on the 2017 seem to be half an inch back, that would affect the tone a bit as well. The 50s sounds super good though.
Agreed - that's quite a bit of distance.
Yep they moved the neck pickup back after the first year of production because they kept snapping. The pickup placement on the original '59 is right where the neck tenon is, which weakens the joint. The pickup needs to be further back on a double cut as compared to single cut
with it being further north and natural degauzing, that would explain it being warmer. They may even have alnico 3 magnets too. Back then there wasn't much in the way of QC in pickup production leading some PAF sounding amazing and others being flat sounding.
This is a cool shoot out. To me, The '59 sounded warmer over all. Thing i was looking for was 'flex' in the neck, affecting tuning stability. No crazy stage moves of course but the '59 seemed stable. Wife bought me a CopyCat copy i put a Gibson clear coil (ala Mike Campbell) in the br slot under a dog ear cover but the neck would drift. To be honest, I'd just look for an old style '57 type SB Jr and ride the tone control.
And the pickups may be more tame on the 59 due to old magnets with decaying power
Maybe drop the pickup height on the 17? I’ve never had that style p90 tho so idk if the height is adjustable
Max; Great comment. I wonder if those two guitars are even remotely set up similarly. Pickup height really alters tone. I wonder if both these guitar's strings are identical with identical play time on them. The old Gibby has had a lot of chances to be set up properly over its lifetime. The new Gibby may still just have its
A W F U L factory set up. Most off the rack Gibbys are damn near un-playable with nut heights so high a guy might as well just go to Wal-mart and get a First Act if they actually intend to gig on the axe. Makes me wonder: Do owners of these $4 grand Gibbys actually GIG nightly on these guitars? or are they just toys for guy's man-caves. The nuts look like they are cut for a slide player. lol...(over .050 on the big E)..lol..fret an F and see how sharp it is on a tuner.
Since I've Been Loving You, my favorite Zeppelin song... nice
They do sound different from my end. They're both fantastic. The 2017 has a little more I don't know what in the new pickups. Thanks for the demo bro!!!.
What's up with the different neck pickup placement? Does Gibson have a specific reason for moving it back?
God that 59 ISSS Rock n Roll Incarnate!!! As usual the old wood and pickups mellow the guitar out without really losing frequency or anything. Similar to old vs new strats and teles. It is hard to describe the difference, like you say, but when you say the tone is "rounder" I hear exactly what you are talking about and I think maybe the wave is rounder. I'm sure you could get closer with after market pickups, or maybe if you stuck the new one under your bed for 60 years. Lol.
I love les paul specials and I bought one by accident in 1991 and still have it, ANYWAY does anyone know why on the single cut away models where the cut away part meets with the end of the neck, On some there is a little sliver of the cut-away remaining and on others it's flush right to the edge of neck and no sliver of the cut-away remaining , who knows what I'm talking about ? thanks !
I've never played an old guitar that feels better than a new one...
Its hilarious how people say "if it was good enough for Hendrix is good enough for me" ... then his touring van or his TV are also good enough for you?
Mojo... yes! . But performance is always better on a new guitar.
Good video! Hopefully performers snap out of that romantic view... leave that to the collectors.
Is it me or does the 59 have a slightly more rounded body than the reissues? At least the non-CS LP specials seem to have a sharper edge/smaller edge radius than the old ones.
Rhett 1st Great playing. The 59 to my ears Barring the RUclips compression is more airy and open which I would contribute to the wood being older and not just 60 years probably a lot longer. It helps that you are so consistent with what you play and how. Stellar. The 2017 did sound great just a little more compressed and tight
I have a 65 Gibson melody maker. It has been modded so it wasn’t expensive. And it has a humbucker and a wrap around tail piece. It needs a refret but has serious mojo
I love these videos because I learn all the riffs you’re doing! Thanks
I am fortunate enough to have a '58 Jr TV (The double cut) so I'm predisposed to liking the '59 but I was shocked by how much more I like it. Even if I could afford the 2017 I don't think I'd buy it. Thanks for posting.
The 59 sounded more seasoned, a bit more bloom on the neck pickup, and had a tad more presence with great break up . Still the 2017 was excellent too, and subjective to whether it was almost identical to the 59.
They don't even sound like the same model of guitar. The vintage one sounds amazing and new one sounds stale, stiff and forgettable. I'd say the '59 is a $10k guitar, no problem.
Liar
Excellent review, 59 has a warmer sound , where as 2017 is brighter and punchier, one thing I noticed is the bridge angle on the 59 is different, that would give the guitar are different feel and tone 😎🎶🎶🎶
I scored a used Edwards copy of the LP Special with Lollar Sean Costello P-90s for $300. It needed a fret dress and setup, but totally worth it. I put in a compensated wraparound bridge and locking tuners. I don't think you could wish for a better LP Special.. Not many in the US. If you see one, grab it and don't let go.
Which brand is the copy?
59 to play at home and studio, 2017 to tour with. I once bought a new LP tradition and I was constantly worried about getting it scratched, so always played a bit intimidated. Could be having the issue playing the 59? I ended up selling the traditional and bought a used LP from a pawn shop. Who cares if I put a few dings in it.... It felt so right.
One more reason I prefer the single cut. The neck pickup is up against the fretboard. As for tone, there has to be a reason why a vintage guitar commands the bucks. The question everyone who can afford one asks, is it worth it to me? P90 change on a new model might be interesting. Last non Gibson P90 set I had was SD on a Guild Blues 90, and they were pretty hot, but great sounding.
I just picked up a 2006 LP jr Custom Shop Historic with a ‘58 neck profile. Having owned both new and old LPs , as well as a few different vintage Epiphone Coronets, the guitar I just bought is as good as any of them. Sounds as good as or better than all of them, and plays like a dream. I love old guitars, don’t get me wrong. But it’s all about what happens when it’s in your hands and plugged in. They’re all great. Mostly not $14k great, though.
It would have been helpful to the discussion if you had noted and measured the different placement of the neck pickup. It is a significant difference, it seems about three-quarters of an inch, and would that not change the node or harmonics it is sensing? Did Gibson change this to "make it easier to play", or to improve the instrument? Thank you.
The neck pickup looks closer to the fretboard on the 1959….is the pickup location different? Or is the fretboard longer on the 1959?
Both sound amazing. Great playing…as always!
It sounds to my ear like to 59 has more harmonic weight within every note the 17 still sounds great but there's a definite difference the 17 sounds lesser somehow.. awesome video rhett you make some great points for both guitars
Tbh it sounds like there is slight mic clipping on the 2017. Like the output is just a tad higher and sent the previously set up mic over the red line. At least that is what it sounds like to me.
59 had more character in the upper mids; 17 was too bassy
Personally I’d get the mid 2000’s “1960 Reissue” Historic Custom Shop... best version of all.
What about the different position of neck pick up?, is there some comment?.
How 'bout the neck P-up placement? the '59 looks like it's where it's "supposed" to be the '17 is where it doesn't cut into the neck tenon so much . ?????
Hey, the first riff is from the song Slave of the Stones! Cool dude!
Do you think the different neck pickup lay out with the 59 being closer to the neck affects the tone?
Great demo. Thanks for posting.
there’s something sweet about the neck pickup being positioned slightly closer to the bridge.
Excellent demo! You can, or you should, see that the 2017 model drops the neck pickup down about an inch from the end of the neck; that's a real though minor difference but it will probably make the newer one be a tiny little bit more jangly than the old one. Otherwise they seem practically identical. Maybe the newer one has a stronger neck joint (because the pickup rout does not interrupt it) I didn't hear any kind of $10K difference, but I'm on computer speakers.
I have never owned one of those (I starting buying & selling guitars in 1970) for some unknown reason. I owned many red juniors (don't remember the years) with the baseball bat neck. Those were $100 guitars back then.
Hi there
They’re little bit different
That is front PU layout
Right?
1:53 What lick was that from? Also, was the first riff a Stones song?
Hey. That was opening lick from Led Zeppelin - Since I've Been Loving You. Wondering about the first one as well.
Don’t wanna be ur slave
Rolling Stones
I’ve been playing it all wrong lol
The 59 and a 10k side order of Mojo bro!!!
Rhett, please do more of these shootouts. You are fantastic and very consistent player and it is just awesome for comparing sounds of guitars :) Do more of these please, if you have access to cool guitars :)
Thanks Miro! I’m planning on it, I just need to find the guitars!
The 59 definitely sounds a bit warmer to my hear and i can hear that Rhett definitely enjoys playing the 59 more but they both sound fantastic