I think i dont know since i wasn't there and this story has been told so many different ways . Someone could have done it and fled the house it could be a hired job who knows ..
I'm convinced that Lizzie, Emma, Uncle John and Bridget were all in on the murders. 1. Uncle John's unannounced visit (with no change of clothes; not even a toothbrush) is suspect. Emma and Uncle John frequently kept in touch via letters. If he had planned a visit, surely he would have communicated that to Emma. In those days, I'm quite sure it was extremely customary and proper to announce visits beforehand. 2. Emma was CONVIENTLY away visiting friends. 3. Bridget "Maggie" claimed she didn't hear anything. I find it hard to believe that, as large as Mrs. Borden was, Bridget didn't hear AT THE VERY LEAST, the thud of her fall after being struck down. 4. When Uncle John returned to the Bordens' home, he was seen (by the man appointed to stand guard at the door of the home) making his way through the crowd that had gathered outside the home. The door guard witnessed Uncle John go to the backyard, picked a pear or two from the pear tree and eat them. Yet, when questioned, Uncle John claimed he didn't realize that anything out of the ordinary had happened and that he did not notice a crowd outside the home.
Terrific presentations. They create the impression that we, the listeners, are present at the hearings. Thanks for putting-in the energy & time. Well done.
Thank you! The whole case is hinky! I believe she's guilty and that will never change. Sociopath? Personality disorder? Bipolar? Dysmenorrhea? All of the above!
@@LionsDenAudioTheatre she was known to shoplift but shopkeepers just turned a blind eye & put it on Andrews tab. In psych terms , if it's not poverty related, it's a sign of anxiety & distress & a feeling you have no control. Then the high of getting away with it gets addictive. It's a red flag psychologically. There was also an incident after she'd inherited $4million when she was accused iof stealing two miniature portraits from a store, but it was never pursued beyond that, so a payoff prob happened.
It really is such an interesting case. We're really enjoying learning more about it as we work on the project. Thank you for listening and commenting. Have a great day.
It is essentially not the guilt or innocence of the defendant but the talent of the defense team. And Miss Borden had A dream team defending her. Their defense strategy was brilliant. The evidence was purely circumstantial, no witnesses of the actual crimes, no murder weapon, plenty of reasonable doubt. Not guilty.
I think a lot of people are dismissing the idea that Lizzie could have known who did it without doing it herself. And she simply never revealed the murderer. This uncle shows up unannounced the day before. Within 15 hours 2 people are nearly decapitated. There had to be blood all over the killer. Pretty disgusting for someone who isn’t accustomed to it. The killer would have certainly had blood on their hands. No blood transfer on any doorknobs, countertops, walls, nothing on her clothing, witnesses say she wasn’t disheveled in any way. If he wasn’t there, I’d say it’s a slam dunk, but he was. The police called his alibi “overly detailed and perfect.” Just as an aside, general observation. Patricide is a very rare event, and even more so among females. When a child kills their parents, it is overwhelmingly the male who does it. It is something like over 95%. I realize that isn’t evidence, but it could be a point in her favor which points the finger at the male who was known to be in the home around the time this happened. By the way, after the trial, the uncle left for Iowa and never returned. Lizzie stayed. Would you have stayed after getting away with this? I think it’s at least possible he did it. She knew it because she was there. He took the weapon and bloody clothes with him out the back door. They knew a jury wouldn’t hang a rich white woman. She remained silent.
The Uncle had an airtight alibi. The doors were locked. The week before, rows over Andrew gifting a home to Abby's relative got so bad, both sisters moved out for 3 days. On their return, Lizzie told friends they were not taking meals with Andrew & Abby & were also staying in their rooms all day. So, it was all still simmering. Lizzie used the flat iron she'd been ironing her handkerchiefs with. They came in all sizes & would be easy to swing. She wore the coat found folded under Andrews destroyed head. It would be soaked in blood, explained away by the severity of Andrews wounds ( head & eyeball effectively cut in half ). The sofa had cushions, ( crime scene pic) why would Andrew use his coat & also have been wearing it on what was described as a v hot day, when he has a waistcoat & jacket on. The maid was seen cleaning the outside windows when Abby died & was unwell in her attic bedroom when Andrew died. Undigested stomach contents & v congealed blood showed Abby died around 9.30. Lizzie shouted to the maid re Andrews murder at 11.05. The maid had just heard the town clock strike 11. Andrews blood was still dripping onto the floor. What murderer waits 1.5 hrs for the next victim? Abby was crept up on from behind & if the first blow stunned her , she prob didn't have time to cry out in what was a blitz attack of 19 blows . She had a bruised nose & forehead but all the blows were to her head & 1 on her neck. She was face down, half under the bed having tried to crawl away. Andrew had been napping , so never woke up.
There's was time between the murders, about an hour, to clean herself up.. she most likely left her step mom as is, then went and cleaned herself up. I don't believe her uncle had anything to do with it.
Thank you for the comment. We are having a great time with it. Really like the looks of what you've got on your channel. Likely to binge soon. Thanks again, - Keith
Great point. It has such a "guilty" sound to it. He definitely lightens up on it as the case goes on, but definitely sounds far worse than "the defendant" or "Miss Borden" would have.
GUILTY!GUILTY!GUILTYGUILTY!...........of living a decadent unladylike lifestyle after her acquittal....cavorting with such lowlifes such as actors & actresses, theater types and such. Even ...perhaps , having intimate relationships with other persons BELOW her social station!😱.....and rumored( as good as proven) with....gasp!...physical congress with the SAME SEX!😤😵......OOOOOOHHHH!....THE ..SHAAAAAMMME...OF IT ALL!
@@LionsDenAudioTheatre I can only imagine the desperation & cloistered loneliness Lizzie just have felt in that house....I've always wondered if her imagination & yearnings just made her circumstances unbearable....what , exactly was her relationship with her father like...or...were the Borden's just unlucky...it's hard to believe that any one outside the household was involved....but...we weren't there...and I've always surmised that in this case we MIGHT just be missing pieces of the puzzle we aren't aware are missing.
@@brettrobinson2901 Sadly, so much - even at the time - was conjecture, rumor and speculation. The press was so politically polarized that the spin became more important than the facts - some things never change, I suppose. There are oodles of thoughts and theories, but it seems like Lizzie's relationship with Andrew was good... very strained at times. The real wild card, for me, seems to be the relationship between Emma and Abby. Lizzie once saw Abby as a mother. Emma never did which is sad as, contrary to almost all depictions, Abby seemed to be universally liked and a very kind person. I absolutely get a strong sense of severe communication issues in the house, but that's seeing it through a 21st century lens. Thanks for chiming in. - Keith
How in the world did she get acquitted?! And you can’t say because she was a “weak woman”, because, they wouldn’t have indicated her in the first place.
Thanks for the comment. The defense did a stellar job throwing in doubt and playing the heartstrings of a pretty naive jury. Someone once said in a comment that 99 juries out of 100 would have locked her up, she lucked out drew the other one.
Something that strikes me about the Lizzie Borden case is that if it were her there would have been blood soaked through her hair with all the splatter that would have happened from the mother and the father. Back then to wash and dry your hair was literally an all day event because they grew their hair out and did not cut it. It would have been so obvious if it were her due to that consideration.
Thats a really good point about th hair that I hadn't heard mentioned before. While there is definitely some debate around the splatter amounts and distance, the hair certainly complicates it. She may have thought to cover/change the dress, but covering the hair isn't as obvious.
There was a coat folded under Andrews destroyed head. When the sofa had cushions...She could have worn that with a towel around her head. Or, there were two rubberised 'rain gossamers' in the home. An 1800's version of a folding , lightweight, rain Macintosh...with a drawstring hood....I googled, they would cover you head to toe and were wipe clean....
If the first blow to the head kills the victim then there would be little, if any, blood spatter [the proper technical term]. This is because the heart stops beating and impedes blood-flow following further invasive trauma to the body. However, blood would certainly have leaked from the wounds inflicted on both Abby and Andrew's heads, hence the blood-soaked carpet (Abby) and the bloody overcoat (Andrew). It is interesting to note the order of the killings: If Andrew had died before Abby she (and her family) would have benefitted from his will. So, the finger points to Lizzie as the culprit based on the fact that she, along with Emma, inherited Andrew's estate. Is this reason enough for murder, it certainly is a mitigating factor.
POV; You're in the trail room of Lizzie Borden, what are you doing? I would be taking notes and watching Lizzie's body language, watching for her guilt and seeing if she's faking it.
Absolutely! Some of the reporting of the day touch on it, but a lot of what they chose to report and how they interpreted it was to back up their predetermination of her guilty/innocence. Of course, the big stuff - i.e. fainting when the skulls came out on day 2 - were top stories in and of themselves.
Lizzie was receiving regular injections of morphine from her doctor. Even in her jail cell. My belief is that this helped blunt her nervousness while calming any guilty fidgeting. It could make the situation seem surreal or dreamlike to her, thereby allowing and enabling her to behave like a bewildered innocent.
I believe she did it, because of the time between the murders, this was not a quick event, the murderer was able to wait between the murders, without suspicion. In a strange way, I'm glad she got away with it, quite an accomplishment, she never could have covered it up in our time.
Great points. If what everyone says at the trial (certainly up to the point we've covered thus far) is true, it would have been nearly impossible for anyone else to have done it without being seen or having some help. It's a strange thing that some defendants get away with things when they are caught red handed and others seem to get the convicted on such scant evidence. Members of the cast have chatted about if she would have been caught this day and age, whether or not she'd be convicted.... who knows.
Poor Lizzie Borden 😢 she was shunned and ostracized by her contemporaries and her fellow church members, and most of the residents of close proximity of North Fall River, because she was found not guilty, that's because she's not guilty and the reason why I say this is because there's a person who has never been considered,in fact he was overlooked due to the fact that there was complete bedlam and chaos at the 92 second street address ,too many people walking into the house destroying evidence, so therefore who's to say who was there and who wasn't, however many people overlooked the fact that there was a man who was standing "guard" by the door of side entrance of the house and his name was Charles Sawyer, Charles Sawyer knew the Bordens fairly well in fact he bought items from Andrew Borden such as eggs and or vinegar from Andrew Borden,he also resided at the Ferry street apartment that both Lizzie and Emma had owned for a short time before Andrew bought the property back from his daughters ,So I find it interesting that nobody has even looked into this.😢 google Charles Sawyer of Fall River you'll be surprised.
After a few others arrived, some women who were with Lizzie certainly did and did not see blood. This was quite a while later, though. None of the police note that they did, though a few spoke to her. Thanks for your comment, sorry for the late reply.
Not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Could not have committed the attack on Andrew, cleaned up completely all in 15 minutes. No sane person could have hoped to get away with those acts without fleeing immediately. Lizzie was not insane.
You bring up two great points. The lack of time to adequately clean up and why she stayed in the house. Calling Bridget down was a strange move for someone who wanted to escape. Thanks for the comment.
She wore the coat found folded under his destroyed head. Why use that when the sofa clearly has cushions on it? Or, there were two full length, rubberised, foldable, wipe clean Macintoshes in the home, with drawstring hoods....Back then they were called rain gossamers. Psych issues: She was known to shoplift but shopkeepers just put it on Andrews tab. The year before, Abby's jewellery & tram tickets were stolen, Lizzie being the only suspect . That's when Andrew installed locks on all the inside doors. There had been furious rows over Andrew gifting a house to Abby's relative, so bad, that the week before, both sisters moved out for 3 days & Lizzie told friends they were still not taking meals with Andrew & Abby & were staying in their rooms all day. The day before , she tried to buy poison. The day after, she burned a "paint stained" dress. The doors were locked. The uncle had an airtight alibi. The maid was seen cleaning the outside windows when Abby died at approx 9.30 ( they went off her undigested stomach contents & the blood being very congealed) & was unwell in her attic bedroom when Lizzie called & alerted her Andrew was dead at 11.05. His blood was still fresh & still dripping onto the carpet. What murderer waits 1.5 hrs between murders? No one else had motive or opportunity.
@@sarahholland2600, even if she wore the coat (which is a HIGE possibility), the lack of blood on her body, her hair, etc. leaves room for reasonable doubt. She simply did not have enough time to clean up afterwards. HOW can you explain that, especially given the times (when women wore a lot of clothes) and the fact that the only running water in the home (if I remember correctly) was in the kitchen?
When John Morse returned to the Borden house there was a lot of bustling activity around the house, typical of any crime scene. Instead of immediately going into the house like you would expect, he sauntered over to the back yard and spent some time eating some pears. VERY odd behavior.
@@TPOrchestra Absolutley. It was really weird that he didn't notice/wonder about the crowd. This really didn't sit well with me for a while... very strange. That being said, it seems like Morse may have been just a strange guy who actually might not have paid much mind to a huge gaggle of people mulling about. Really tough call.
Morse had an airtight alibi, though. I've gone over and over this, because I'm leaning towards his involvement. I think he was an odd man. Remembered the trolly number and the six passenger's names. But he was visiting relatives and that was corroborated. I still feel the pull of his involvement. He was an odd duck. Never married, but good business man. Early riser, hard worker... Yet he didn't notice mass hysteria descended on the Borden house? Instead, he hangs around in the orchard eating the same pears that were Lizzie's alibi. Makes no sense.
The problem is, the maid was present and there is exactly the same evidence against the maid as there is against Lizzie. None. If Bridget saw and heard nothing of two people violently murdered in a house that was not that large, no blood on Lizzie , then it is completely reasonable that Lizzie didn't either.
The maid was seen outside washing windows and talking to the maid next-door when Abby was murdered. She was in her room on the third floor when Andrew was murdered, on the first floor.
@@Catbooks Agreed. But still , she could have been in the barn that morning , eating pears. The biggest problem I see with Lizzie being the actual killer is no blood on her minutes after her father was killed. Man was still bleeding. I've always thought this was a conspiracy . I think someone else did the actual killing She would have had blood on her face and hair.
@@candiceparr4174 According to Bridget Lizzie had 10-15 minutes to clean up. No matter who did it, they would have to clean themselves up and if it were someone who left the house, it'd mean they had to walk down busy 2nd Street, and risk being seen by the many people on it. Without any way to clean up. Lizzie could have covered her hair with a scarf, then cleaned her face and hands down in the cellar. No one else, except perhaps Emma, had a motive. Emma didn't have the opportunity, only Lizzie had both.
![Jack Harlow - Hello Miss Johnson [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Q86_nlRoIGw/mqdefault.jpg)
No one else could’ve done this . Lizzie did it pure and simple . She chose the time when Emma would be gone .
100 percent
She is as guilty as OJ
I totally agree.Although I believe Emma knew from the get go.She simply could not be present.
I think i dont know since i wasn't there and this story has been told so many different ways . Someone could have done it and fled the house it could be a hired job who knows ..
I'm convinced that Lizzie, Emma, Uncle John and Bridget were all in on the murders.
1. Uncle John's unannounced visit (with no change of clothes; not even a toothbrush) is suspect. Emma and Uncle John frequently kept in touch via letters. If he had planned a visit, surely he would have communicated that to Emma. In those days, I'm quite sure it was extremely customary and proper to announce visits beforehand.
2. Emma was CONVIENTLY away visiting friends.
3. Bridget "Maggie" claimed she didn't hear anything. I find it hard to believe that, as large as Mrs. Borden was, Bridget didn't hear AT THE VERY LEAST, the thud of her fall after being struck down.
4. When Uncle John returned to the Bordens' home, he was seen (by the man appointed to stand guard at the door of the home) making his way through the crowd that had gathered outside the home. The door guard witnessed Uncle John go to the backyard, picked a pear or two from the pear tree and eat them. Yet, when questioned, Uncle John claimed he didn't realize that anything out of the ordinary had happened and that he did not notice a crowd outside the home.
Listening to the transcripts of Lizzie's trial I am in awe at hearing the English language spoken with such eloquence and precision.
Absolutely. One of the performers mentioned that it is as beautiful, but easier to understand than Shakespeare.
@@LionsDenAudioTheatre Yes, I agree.
Terrific presentations. They create the impression that we, the listeners, are present at the hearings. Thanks for putting-in the energy & time. Well done.
Thanks very much for the very kind and encouraging words. So glad you are enjoying it.
I listened to the entire thing while making dinner, enjoyed it thourally!
Thank you very much for commenting. Really glad you liked it. The next episode (Day 3 Part 4) is going up tonight. Take care:)
@@LionsDenAudioTheatre I look forward to it, good bedtime listening!
Lizzie is as suspicious as all get out.
Thank you! The whole case is hinky! I believe she's guilty and that will never change. Sociopath? Personality disorder? Bipolar? Dysmenorrhea? All of the above!
Yeah, I've wondered what modern psychology could tell us about Lizzie. Thanks for the comment.
@@LionsDenAudioTheatre she was known to shoplift but shopkeepers just turned a blind eye & put it on Andrews tab. In psych terms , if it's not poverty related, it's a sign of anxiety & distress & a feeling you have no control. Then the high of getting away with it gets addictive. It's a red flag psychologically. There was also an incident after she'd inherited $4million when she was accused iof stealing two miniature portraits from a store, but it was never pursued beyond that, so a payoff prob happened.
Love this series. Looking forward to more.
Thanks very much, Elaine. We've got all of Day 3 up and the first of Day 4 is only a week or so out. Take care :)
This is so interesting ! Thank you !
It really is such an interesting case. We're really enjoying learning more about it as we work on the project. Thank you for listening and commenting. Have a great day.
Just about every piece of circumstantial evidence points to Lizzie having the advantage of circumstances
She certainly did. Great point.
Excellent…the pictures, the sounds, this narrative really takes us in the Courtroom. Thank You.
Thanks a million. I'm glad you're enjoying it.
It is essentially not the guilt or innocence of the defendant but the talent of the defense team. And Miss Borden had A dream team defending her. Their defense strategy was brilliant. The evidence was purely circumstantial, no witnesses of the actual crimes, no murder weapon, plenty of reasonable doubt. Not guilty.
Guilty!
The external influencing factors of the jury's final verdict was overwhelming.
That jury was going to walk Lizzie Borden, no matter what.
@@kennethganser4119 true dat!
I think a lot of people are dismissing the idea that Lizzie could have known who did it without doing it herself. And she simply never revealed the murderer. This uncle shows up unannounced the day before. Within 15 hours 2 people are nearly decapitated. There had to be blood all over the killer. Pretty disgusting for someone who isn’t accustomed to it. The killer would have certainly had blood on their hands. No blood transfer on any doorknobs, countertops, walls, nothing on her clothing, witnesses say she wasn’t disheveled in any way. If he wasn’t there, I’d say it’s a slam dunk, but he was. The police called his alibi “overly detailed and perfect.”
Just as an aside, general observation. Patricide is a very rare event, and even more so among females. When a child kills their parents, it is overwhelmingly the male who does it. It is something like over 95%. I realize that isn’t evidence, but it could be a point in her favor which points the finger at the male who was known to be in the home around the time this happened. By the way, after the trial, the uncle left for Iowa and never returned. Lizzie stayed. Would you have stayed after getting away with this?
I think it’s at least possible he did it. She knew it because she was there. He took the weapon and bloody clothes with him out the back door. They knew a jury wouldn’t hang a rich white woman. She remained silent.
What would his motive have been? Only Lizzie had motive, means, and opportunity, and no alibi.
Money, she probably offered him money …
The Uncle had an airtight alibi. The doors were locked. The week before, rows over Andrew gifting a home to Abby's relative got so bad, both sisters moved out for 3 days. On their return, Lizzie told friends they were not taking meals with Andrew & Abby & were also staying in their rooms all day. So, it was all still simmering. Lizzie used the flat iron she'd been ironing her handkerchiefs with. They came in all sizes & would be easy to swing. She wore the coat found folded under Andrews destroyed head. It would be soaked in blood, explained away by the severity of Andrews wounds ( head & eyeball effectively cut in half ). The sofa had cushions, ( crime scene pic) why would Andrew use his coat & also have been wearing it on what was described as a v hot day, when he has a waistcoat & jacket on. The maid was seen cleaning the outside windows when Abby died & was unwell in her attic bedroom when Andrew died. Undigested stomach contents & v congealed blood showed Abby died around 9.30. Lizzie shouted to the maid re Andrews murder at 11.05. The maid had just heard the town clock strike 11. Andrews blood was still dripping onto the floor. What murderer waits 1.5 hrs for the next victim? Abby was crept up on from behind & if the first blow stunned her , she prob didn't have time to cry out in what was a blitz attack of 19 blows . She had a bruised nose & forehead but all the blows were to her head & 1 on her neck. She was face down, half under the bed having tried to crawl away. Andrew had been napping , so never woke up.
There's was time between the murders, about an hour, to clean herself up.. she most likely left her step mom as is, then went and cleaned herself up. I don't believe her uncle had anything to do with it.
Thank you so much for doing this
Thank you for the comment. We are having a great time with it. Really like the looks of what you've got on your channel. Likely to binge soon. Thanks again, - Keith
She said he said we said they said
would have loved to catch this when you were live streaming
There are more coming. We usually hold live premieres where people can listen as a group.
It's crazy to hear they call the defendant a " prisoner." Sounds like she's guilty until proven innocent.
Great point. It has such a "guilty" sound to it. He definitely lightens up on it as the case goes on, but definitely sounds far worse than "the defendant" or "Miss Borden" would have.
GUILTY!GUILTY!GUILTYGUILTY!...........of living a decadent unladylike lifestyle after her acquittal....cavorting with such lowlifes such as actors & actresses, theater types and such. Even ...perhaps , having intimate relationships with other persons BELOW her social station!😱.....and rumored( as good as proven) with....gasp!...physical congress with the SAME SEX!😤😵......OOOOOOHHHH!....THE ..SHAAAAAMMME...OF IT ALL!
@@brettrobinson2901 One person said somewhere she was of guilty of being the person the defense claimed she was not. :)
@@LionsDenAudioTheatre I can only imagine the desperation & cloistered loneliness Lizzie just have felt in that house....I've always wondered if her imagination & yearnings just made her circumstances unbearable....what , exactly was her relationship with her father like...or...were the Borden's just unlucky...it's hard to believe that any one outside the household was involved....but...we weren't there...and I've always surmised that in this case we MIGHT just be missing pieces of the puzzle we aren't aware are missing.
@@brettrobinson2901 Sadly, so much - even at the time - was conjecture, rumor and speculation. The press was so politically polarized that the spin became more important than the facts - some things never change, I suppose. There are oodles of thoughts and theories, but it seems like Lizzie's relationship with Andrew was good... very strained at times.
The real wild card, for me, seems to be the relationship between Emma and Abby. Lizzie once saw Abby as a mother. Emma never did which is sad as, contrary to almost all depictions, Abby seemed to be universally liked and a very kind person.
I absolutely get a strong sense of severe communication issues in the house, but that's seeing it through a 21st century lens.
Thanks for chiming in. - Keith
How in the world did she get acquitted?! And you can’t say because she was a “weak woman”, because, they wouldn’t have indicated her in the first place.
Thanks for the comment. The defense did a stellar job throwing in doubt and playing the heartstrings of a pretty naive jury. Someone once said in a comment that 99 juries out of 100 would have locked her up, she lucked out drew the other one.
either lizzie did it or knew who did.
Thanks for the comment. I agree. I believe she did, but if she didn't, I think it would have been impossible for her not to have known.
This is interesting
Thanks very much. A lot of fun to go through.
Something that strikes me about the Lizzie Borden case is that if it were her there would have been blood soaked through her hair with all the splatter that would have happened from the mother and the father. Back then to wash and dry your hair was literally an all day event because they grew their hair out and did not cut it. It would have been so obvious if it were her due to that consideration.
Thats a really good point about th hair that I hadn't heard mentioned before. While there is definitely some debate around the splatter amounts and distance, the hair certainly complicates it. She may have thought to cover/change the dress, but covering the hair isn't as obvious.
Couldn’t she have just taken a scarf and made a turban to cover her hair?
There was a coat folded under Andrews destroyed head. When the sofa had cushions...She could have worn that with a towel around her head. Or, there were two rubberised 'rain gossamers' in the home. An 1800's version of a folding , lightweight, rain Macintosh...with a drawstring hood....I googled, they would cover you head to toe and were wipe clean....
If the first blow to the head kills the victim then there would be little, if any, blood spatter [the proper technical term]. This is because the heart stops beating and impedes blood-flow following further invasive trauma to the body. However, blood would certainly have leaked from the wounds inflicted on both Abby and Andrew's heads, hence the blood-soaked carpet (Abby) and the bloody overcoat (Andrew). It is interesting to note the order of the killings: If Andrew had died before Abby she (and her family) would have benefitted from his will. So, the finger points to Lizzie as the culprit based on the fact that she, along with Emma, inherited Andrew's estate. Is this reason enough for murder, it certainly is a mitigating factor.
POV; You're in the trail room of Lizzie Borden, what are you doing?
I would be taking notes and watching Lizzie's body language, watching for her guilt and seeing if she's faking it.
Absolutely! Some of the reporting of the day touch on it, but a lot of what they chose to report and how they interpreted it was to back up their predetermination of her guilty/innocence. Of course, the big stuff - i.e. fainting when the skulls came out on day 2 - were top stories in and of themselves.
@@LionsDenAudioTheatre Dang, what a year to be alive during that time, almost like how it's done today
You're absolutely right. Society hasnt evolved as much as we sometimes think.
@@LionsDenAudioTheatre Especially when it comes to rights of people and prosecutions. We need to step up and let the law be the law.
Lizzie was receiving regular injections of morphine from her doctor. Even in her jail cell. My belief is that this helped blunt her nervousness while calming any guilty fidgeting. It could make the situation seem surreal or dreamlike to her, thereby allowing and enabling her to behave like a bewildered innocent.
I believe she did it, because of the time between the murders, this was not a quick event, the murderer was able to wait between the murders, without suspicion. In a strange way, I'm glad she got away with it, quite an accomplishment, she never could have covered it up in our time.
Great points. If what everyone says at the trial (certainly up to the point we've covered thus far) is true, it would have been nearly impossible for anyone else to have done it without being seen or having some help.
It's a strange thing that some defendants get away with things when they are caught red handed and others seem to get the convicted on such scant evidence. Members of the cast have chatted about if she would have been caught this day and age, whether or not she'd be convicted.... who knows.
Believing and having actual evidence are two different universes!
Poor Lizzie Borden 😢 she was shunned and ostracized by her contemporaries and her fellow church members, and most of the residents of close proximity of North Fall River, because she was found not guilty, that's because she's not guilty and the reason why I say this is because there's a person who has never been considered,in fact he was overlooked due to the fact that there was complete bedlam and chaos at the 92 second street address ,too many people walking into the house destroying evidence, so therefore who's to say who was there and who wasn't, however many people overlooked the fact that there was a man who was standing "guard" by the door of side entrance of the house and his name was Charles Sawyer, Charles Sawyer knew the Bordens fairly well in fact he bought items from Andrew Borden such as eggs and or vinegar from Andrew Borden,he also resided at the Ferry street apartment that both Lizzie and Emma had owned for a short time before Andrew bought the property back from his daughters ,So I find it interesting that nobody has even looked into this.😢 google Charles Sawyer of Fall River you'll be surprised.
Thanks for the comment. I've certainly come across Sawyer as it pertains to the day of, but not as a suspect. Very interesting thought.
Did they look at there hands????
After a few others arrived, some women who were with Lizzie certainly did and did not see blood. This was quite a while later, though. None of the police note that they did, though a few spoke to her. Thanks for your comment, sorry for the late reply.
Not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Could not have committed the attack on Andrew, cleaned up completely all in 15 minutes. No sane person could have hoped to get away with those acts without fleeing immediately. Lizzie was not insane.
You bring up two great points. The lack of time to adequately clean up and why she stayed in the house. Calling Bridget down was a strange move for someone who wanted to escape. Thanks for the comment.
She wore the coat found folded under his destroyed head. Why use that when the sofa clearly has cushions on it? Or, there were two full length, rubberised, foldable, wipe clean Macintoshes in the home, with drawstring hoods....Back then they were called rain gossamers. Psych issues: She was known to shoplift but shopkeepers just put it on Andrews tab. The year before, Abby's jewellery & tram tickets were stolen, Lizzie being the only suspect . That's when Andrew installed locks on all the inside doors. There had been furious rows over Andrew gifting a house to Abby's relative, so bad, that the week before, both sisters moved out for 3 days & Lizzie told friends they were still not taking meals with Andrew & Abby & were staying in their rooms all day. The day before , she tried to buy poison. The day after, she burned a "paint stained" dress. The doors were locked. The uncle had an airtight alibi. The maid was seen cleaning the outside windows when Abby died at approx 9.30 ( they went off her undigested stomach contents & the blood being very congealed) & was unwell in her attic bedroom when Lizzie called & alerted her Andrew was dead at 11.05. His blood was still fresh & still dripping onto the carpet. What murderer waits 1.5 hrs between murders? No one else had motive or opportunity.
@@sarahholland2600, even if she wore the coat (which is a HIGE possibility), the lack of blood on her body, her hair, etc. leaves room for reasonable doubt. She simply did not have enough time to clean up afterwards. HOW can you explain that, especially given the times (when women wore a lot of clothes) and the fact that the only running water in the home (if I remember correctly) was in the kitchen?
John Morse???? Perhaps????
Thx for the comment. There are a lot of ppl who suspect the same.
When John Morse returned to the Borden house there was a lot of bustling activity around the house, typical of any crime scene. Instead of immediately going into the house like you would expect, he sauntered over to the back yard and spent some time eating some pears. VERY odd behavior.
@@TPOrchestra Absolutley. It was really weird that he didn't notice/wonder about the crowd. This really didn't sit well with me for a while... very strange. That being said, it seems like Morse may have been just a strange guy who actually might not have paid much mind to a huge gaggle of people mulling about. Really tough call.
Motive?
Morse had an airtight alibi, though. I've gone over and over this, because I'm leaning towards his involvement.
I think he was an odd man. Remembered the trolly number and the six passenger's names. But he was visiting relatives and that was corroborated. I still feel the pull of his involvement.
He was an odd duck. Never married, but good business man. Early riser, hard worker... Yet he didn't notice mass hysteria descended on the Borden house? Instead, he hangs around in the orchard eating the same pears that were Lizzie's alibi. Makes no sense.
The problem is, the maid was present and there is exactly the same evidence against the maid as there is against Lizzie. None. If Bridget saw and heard nothing of two people violently murdered in a house that was not that large, no blood on Lizzie , then it is completely reasonable that Lizzie didn't either.
The maid was seen outside washing windows and talking to the maid next-door when Abby was murdered. She was in her room on the third floor when Andrew was murdered, on the first floor.
@@Catbooks But Lizzy was outside eating pears.
@@candiceparr4174 No one saw her outside eating pears. She claimed too many contradictory stories at the time of Andrew's death. No one else did that.
@@Catbooks Agreed. But still , she could have been in the barn that morning , eating pears. The biggest problem I see with Lizzie being the actual killer is no blood on her minutes after her father was killed. Man was still bleeding. I've always thought this was a conspiracy . I think someone else did the actual killing She would have had blood on her face and hair.
@@candiceparr4174 According to Bridget Lizzie had 10-15 minutes to clean up. No matter who did it, they would have to clean themselves up and if it were someone who left the house, it'd mean they had to walk down busy 2nd Street, and risk being seen by the many people on it. Without any way to clean up. Lizzie could have covered her hair with a scarf, then cleaned her face and hands down in the cellar. No one else, except perhaps Emma, had a motive. Emma didn't have the opportunity, only Lizzie had both.