Very good video. When I started my family history research 40 years ago, as I was headed out the door to check out cemeteries and courthouses, my father pulled me aside and said, "What you're going to find is that your great grandfather was a "woods colt." ("Woods colt" meant a child born "in the woods" so to speak with the father being unknown -- in other words a bastard child.) When my great grandfather became an adult he had taken the surname Collins, which we concluded to mean that he knew his father's identity -- and that his mother had given him this info. Fast forward 100 years and anyone who knew that story had taken it to their graves. I got a copy of my great grandfather's death certificate. It listed his mother's name (and maiden name), but in the box for "father" it simply said "Don't Know." Also, sometimes courthouses will have bastardy files, and the putative father would be required to post a bond to provide for the support of the child. I searched, but had no luck on that. So, yes, the first step is to build your family tree as best you can. Then look around for suspects. We had three likely candidates for the paternity. But this was many years before DNA projects. I think it would have been impossible, at least in my case, to confirm paternity before DNA databases. I had researched every Collins family which lived in the area in the 1800s. When the first DNA projects started up, I was ready and managed to get a descendant of each Collins family group to participate. Turned out that based on the DNA results, the several Collins families in the area were not even related to each other, and none related to my Collins line. Then suddenly I had a match from a Collins in a distant state who positively had a common Collins male ancestor but was not a descendant of my great grandfather -- meaning our common ancestor was further back. So building your family tree is essential. We researched my newfound cousin's ancestry and it led straight back to one of the three "suspects" -- and the other two suspects had been ruled out by DNA. The suspect (my great grandfather's father) had moved to Alabama shortly after my great grandfather was born, but records showed him living just down the road from my great grandfather's mother at the time. Just thought I would share my own story. So I guess another tip would be Patience. Do your research, put your DNA profile out there.
I LOVED reading your story and your due diligence in researching your case. I haven't heard of the woods colt terminology either. Thanks for teaching me something new.
My journey into genealogy was started by a simple question that has stood for 94 years. My paternal grandfather was an illegitimate child and all the people that would have known the truth had taken that knowledge to the grave, and yes I did solve it!
@@fireflyfarmletontheeno777 I knew the small town he was born in and I knew the surname of the family he came from. That helped a lot but it really comes down to being lucky and finding cousins that got dna tested. In my case a 1/2 1st cousin once removed that descendant from the mystery father. A 192 cm match was conclusive.
Firefly... this is a channel member only video but it has many tips on how we discovered my grandmother's biological father with even less information than you have. For $2.99, it's a great value. ruclips.net/video/ezfU641aOuo/видео.html
Great video! I have an ancestor who was abandoned in Italy. They had "foundling wheels" on churches at that time, which allowed mothers to set their babies on the wheel from the outside of the church, then turn the wheel to spin the baby to the inside of the church. They were designed to protect the anonymity of the mothers, while protecting the babies lives. It was an economically rough time when my ancestor was born, so the mother must have thought her child would have a better life being raised in the church orphanage. I'll be putting your ideas to work. Can't wait to see what I can find.
I had exactly this very same situation happen on my maternal side. TWICE. Not only did I use DNA cousin matching (supplemented by targeted historical research) to determine that my Mom had a different biological father, but I also found that the same thing had happened some 40 years earlier with HER Mom as well! And we had never previously suspected any illegitimacies, nor that we had the fathers all wrong. It was those 1st and 2nd cousin matches who were totally unknown to me that got me to wondering and digging around. The result being that 75% of my Mom's tree is now totally new to us! We're still dealing with the emotional fallout. ... But what I want to stress here is that I have been exceedingly CAREFUL and RIGOROUS. And that the evidence, IMO, is both compelling and incontrovertible. I'll be happy to explain the details if asked. (And BTW, I'm no novice when it comes to analyzing genetic science.)
I appreciate you mentioning the fallout of discovering your family tree being different than what you expected. That's a reality many need to consider and be open to discussing. I appreciate your hard work in building your family tree. It sounds like you're doing some great work.
In Norway the term was uægte, which now would be uekte. Basically unauthorized. The mother was compelled to name the father. In very early christenings, there was no info on whether or not the parents were married, but eventually it became standard. Paternity cases can be requested, if you find out where they're housed today.
On Swedish 19th century indexed birth records, there are two columns. One for marital status, Civilstånd, under which there are two sub columns: Äkta for “genuine,” amongst other similar meanings, and Oäkta for “bastard,” or “unauthentic.” The other column is Dödfödda for stillborn with the same sub columns as Civilstånd. There are quite a few oäktas barn. Fairly common in old Swedish birth records. Often helpful to compare to village church records, if it didn’t burn down, because a father often appears there when he doesn’t appear on the birth record itself.
I have two very much suspected illegitimate ancestors. One is a great great grandfather, the other is a great great great grandfather. DNA is helping to give clues. Haven't solved either problem yet. Working on it.
Keep up the research. When your project gets stuck for a bit, work on something else to keep your genealogy skills sharp. Then come back and see if any new resources help move your search forward.
Great tips - but, sadly it hasn't helped for me find my Great Grandfather. My Grandmother, Dorothy Violet Langdon was born 5th Sept 1896, to Mary Jane Langdon, the father of Dorothy on the birth certificate is blank! Just before my Gran died in 1994 she told one of my cousins that her father had died in an accident before she was born. She described the accident as a pony and trap accident. I've done a lot of research over the years and found an inquest of the death of one man, who fits perfectly. They lived in the same geographical area, they were both single, both of the same age AND he died in Jan 1896 - now I'm still left wondering whether he was my Great Grandfather. I need DNA to confirm this, as without it, it's just guess work, which I don't add to my tree.
It actually sounds like you're following much of what I've already described. Develop a list of potential fathers, search records about the individuals. Now, you need to do descendancy research to find possible test takers and then use that to compare your DNA. Also explore additional men who were in in Mary Jane's world. It might not be the one people spoke of. Repeat the descendancy research process and see of those descendants have tested. Sometimes we have to rule out theories to confirm the ones we suspect.
@@StokesCheri I have, and as yet haven't come across anyone that doesn't have family connections I know of... Hopefully I'll find someone from my missing great-grandfather's ancestors one day.
@@Kari_B61ex Statistically, there pretty-much have to be some people already in your DNA match-list who are related to your great grandfather. It's usually a lot of work to identify them though, but it can be done.
How? Because I think my great grandma had a different father than who is listed but I can't figure it out. I haveatched to 3rd cousins that won't answer me and such
Sometimes the ancestor can be surprisingly helpful without maybe even knowing it. I have a distant illegitimate great grandfather that took his mothers maiden name as his own, but also kept his biological fathers surname for his middle name. His mothers maiden name carried on down to all the descendants including my 2x Grandmother and his fathers middle name pops up on the records through some of the male descendants as well.
Yes, I do have (at least!) one in my tree - ME! I didn't know that I was illegitimate until I was 53 years old. My mother was married. I was born into that marriage, but not from it. Her husband - my daddy - was not my biological father. As my mother just died this past Sunday, and she had stopped talking to me over this discovery already, there will be no more answers from her about how I came to be. It took me 8 months from discovery to finding my bio paternal grandparents and another 8 months to the confirmation of my paternity. It certainly was not what I was expecting when I initially took the AncestryDNA test. I was just trying to find my brick wall 2nd great-grandma's family and grow our family tree in the process. Instead, it couldn't have been split in half any better if a lightening bolt had struck it. PS The show notes link isn't working for me. It says, "We couldn't find this page."
Taking a DNA test really is like opening a can of worms. I'm glad you were able to make such gains so quickly. Others haven't been so lucky. I'm also sorry for your loss. Losing a mother was the hardest thing. Nearly 10 years later, Christmas is now the hardest time of the year because she died on December 10th. Thanks for letting me know the link was incomplete. Here it is and I've also updated it in the description. www.familyhistoryfanatics.com/post/finding-your-illegitimate-ancestors-father
Jan 2020, at 54, I realized my dad was not my bio father. My mother was pregnant when she married my dad. I met a bio cousin who was very helpful in figuring out who bio father is, however, he is in complete denial. This DNA information can get crazy!
@@memellie I am so sorry that you've had to endure this, too. I hope that your bio father will come around. Just like for us, it is something that our bio fathers have to work through and process, especially those that never knew we existed. I am glad that you've had a helpful cousin along the way. I did, too. Cousins can be great folks. :)
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics I don't know what happened to my original reply to you. You're welcome in regards to the show notes. Thanks for the new link. I am so sorry for the loss of your mother. Regardless of how much time may have passed, the loss of such a close loved one will always tug at our hearts.
@@STICKITINYOUREAR No its never easy. It took me 10 years to find my daughter in law's mother. In the end I had to fly to Japan meet a cousin to track her down. Check with your DNA matches and find someone who will help you out. I feel it takes a second person to double check things as you go.
My Grandmother was pregnant when she married my Das stepdad, he and his brother where already here. I didn’t know this until I was an adult and he had a stroke so I didn’t get to ask him anything else. I did DNA and it brought a 1st or 2nd cousin in PA but he said his Dad is adopted and has no idea where from, this guy matches me most on ancestry. I know who my Dad thought his Dad was but I have no proof and no one by that name has come up. I don’t know if I will ever know it wasn’t that long ago really 1932. He doesn’t have a birth certificate. Definitely a brick wall for me. Thanks your sharing your knowledge with us it’s very kind.
Thank you for sharing your struggles. Try to research the life of the potential father. Then see if there are any living descendants that have tested or would test. It could either confirm or refute the possiblitiy.
So what if you’re trying to find the father of an ancestor who happened to be their “owner” I’m African American and I match with alot of European Americans and would like to find out how I connect with one 2 cousins
I had a few ancestors who presented themselves as married when in fact they were definitely not married (which amazed me; I want to do a RUclips video on it as its too complicated to type - lots of alias surnames)
I'm in the same predicament. My mothers Paternal side 2nd great grandfather was illegitimate. He took his mothers maiden name. Luckily I had my mothers paternal uncle DNA tested in hope that would give better results, with him being his great grandmother and the unknown father being his 2nd great grandfather. But sadly no matches through the unknown father, we're on all the DNA sites too.
That's when you need to search for the men in 3rd great grandmother's life and do descendancy research to find potential matches. Hopefully you can find some folks still living to help you rule out and rule in your theories.
Have spent many hours in Austrian church records of the 17th through 19th century. Many of the issues you note in the Mexican church records are there as well, though the frequency of finding a father is spotty: you either find a completely blank spot in the record, in which case you've truly hit a brick wall, or you find the magical "wall of text" which usually lists the man taking responsibility and several witnesses. Some parishes, at certain points in time, kept separate record books for children born in and out of wedlock.
That's the case. That's when we have to layer genealogical research to try to figure out who was in the right place at the right time to create life. Andy figured this out in this video .How Andy Discovered Devon's Bio Grandpa With DNA ruclips.net/video/ezfU641aOuo/видео.html
My boat too: a 2C1R (@ 116cM) has led me to this match's grandmother 's 8 brothers....all pretty much in the right place, right time. (This is one of my "strong "lines- matches in all directions.) Just so I don't get too confident- I've also reason to believe that Gram's mother was actually one of her older "sisters ". Since I share DNA with descendants of the (now) grandmother, I am encouraged to conclude she did fit in this family somewhere. (Her (now) grandfather seems to share no DNA with anyone bearing either of the names he went by- but I sure have matches with several well-known families in his area! They married each other a lot. One of these lines shows a fair bit of pedigree collapse- to the point where I wonder what incest would look like at that generation distance....)
"Chronicling America" to the rescue! The Culprit was one of three brothers. One of the gossip columns in the area had that So-and-So took Such-and-Such to Salem for a holiday. Said Holiday was nine months and ten days before birth of Target Child. Descendants of Target Child have a 1/2 first cousin, once removed, whose DNA results purty well confirm the story.
Yes. After nearly three years of research, I still cannot find any documents outside of those I've found in Arkansas pre and post Civil War. It's very frustrating. And only three of my grandfather's descendants (myself included) have taken DNA tests.
leeds method. See if you can find common ancestors between different shared matches. Sometimes if you get a high match, you can get lucky. I had a lady who thankfully named his mother (but not father) on his adoption record. (was born with his mothers maiden name) Now if she knew genealogy better, she would of been able to find the connection with 2 100cm matches, but she doesn't understand genealogy sadly. Then my father took a DNA test and he matched in the 500's which was the highest of her unknown matches. My father pawned her off to me which was just fine. With a very uncommon surname and matching my father, it took me literally 2 seconds to tell her exactly whom her fathers mother was when she told me the name. Fastest DNA matching i've ever done. The thing with illegitimate children is, depending on ethnic group, you may never find out. This is my case, though my grandmother was not born illegitimate, her father whom went by "Coleman" was by no means his real surname! Her brother wasn't born illegitimate either, but in reality DNA told us that after 60+ years later, an affair happened and he is only a half brother to my grandmother. After all these years, i was left to find whom my grandmothers father was, as her fathers father was not the same. (she figured out whom he was, myself, i still don't know as DNA matches take me to 2 people who only share 1 thing in common. Same ethnic group, they weren't a married couple by any means, so their child was def born illegimate but he's not on any records... and though a girl with his surname is a witness, they are -not- related, nor lived together)
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics I do not think you will find this word on church records, but there are some orphanages called "casa de expósitos" and maybe they have their own records available. And there are also some records about "dote" (dowry for marriage) to orphans and "expósitas" (girls).
Looking forward to this video. 2nd great grandfathers father can't be identified. My 2nd g-grandfather was born between 1822 to 1824 in Kentucky and his mother married in White county Illinois in 1825. He never took the surname of his stepfather. I have uploaded my Familty Tree dna to GEDmatch, Wikitree and MyHeritage. I have found other cousins that are descendants of this 2nd great grandfather. So far I have not matched any dna with anyone with his surname before him. I am not even sure if he has his mothers surname or she was married at age 15 or 16 or what.
Wow - I have a very similar situation during that time, only it's in Maryland. My 3rd great grandfather Henry P Snyder (Schneider/Snider) was born about 1825, married in Maryland and had kids, they moved to Indiana and had more kids... The 1880 census says his parents were from Maryland, too, but I cannot find any other clues. Good luck on your search!
Good luck to you both. I hope the section about researching all the men in your 2nd great-grandfather's mother's life will be helpful. Let me know after you view the video.
Yup: Nfld marriage records are quite good- not indexed- but a team of volunteers has transcribed them - unfortunately some more conscientious, accurate, than others. (My zone is a dream!) My search for which Patience married my 2nd ggrf produced none that fitted the profile of mother of their known descendants- gt gram's siblings, & source of nearly half my total matches. I also searched baptisms- eventually finding one c. 1837 "of a girl age "about 13"....father who I thought, but - her mother would have been about 14...? Also found her a brother- no question asked about marriage status of parents. From frustration, I put the lot of them in my tree- & waited to see what Ancestry ThruLines would do. I got at least 40 new matches through each of Patience ' maternal grandparents. I rested my case. (Now I see why I have descendants of both Jonathan & his cousin Martin in my matches...)
My mother was illegitimate and later adopted out - she and I had to do a DNA test in order to find her fathers family. And we were successful. However being an Irish Catholic family, they are quite reluctant to do any DNA tests because of the "Scandal". But there are also two other females further back (mid 1800s) in my tree, both born in England. One on my mothers side and the other on my fathers side - for whom we have either no records or no father listed. One girl was totally abandoned. Her baptismal record literally says - Mary Found on the street - and FOUND became her surname. It is possible that I have DNA connections, but so far it is impossible to know. The other girl has a mother but no father and a middle name that MIGHT point to the father. She grew up and got married but the father whom she listed on her marriage record does not have the same name as her middle name. Again, DNA may help, but i have no idea where to start.
You have already started... by taking DNA tests and researching the paper trail. With the foundling, that might be stuck until you have processed all possible DNA matches using the advanced techniques Andy teaches. As for the second one where you know the mother's name, you follow the steps I shared here. Find the men in the mother's world and test out hypothesis on paper and through DNA combined.
I have a 2nd great grandfather who's surname is his mother's, obviously there is something funny there, and my dna matches have all types of ideas for why this happened, including that he was a product of a brother/sister relationship! I will use some of your tips, and see what I find...I appreciate the ideas in this video... I have a lot of Catholic relatives(everyone, lol), too, as I'm mostly Scots Irish and Italian...my German, Bavarian relatives, from way, back, list if the baby is legitimate or not, as well, and it's a rude question, lol, but I wish they did it everywhere! I do appreciate the deeper genealogy tips, because I feel like I have heard and done, everything else! So thank you!
You're welcome. Often I share some of the same tips in a new way or a new tip or two. My major goal is to get people thinking. The brain loves to solve mysteries and answer questions, we just have to learn to ask the right ones. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
Thank you, but I need some advice: I found a line where I matched other DNA matches, and digging in, I found three brothers. I am convinced one of those three brothers is the father of my 2nd great grandmother. The only problem is I'm not sure how I can prove which brother is the father. When I entered their parents names and details in my tree, they matched with my DNA relatives. How can I prove which brother is the father? Any advice would be great. Thank you
My grandfather was left by his mother when I believe he was 3. His father raised him till he was 8 and then placed him and his siblings in a catholic orphanage somewhere in the Pittsburg area. I found my great grandfather but I’m struggling to find my biological great grandmother. I don’t believe my great grandparents were ever officially married but I’m still not entirely sure. My grandfather is alive but struggles talking about his past due to the trauma. I’m really interested in finding my bio great grandmother. If you have any tips let me know! And thank you! Such an interesting video!
Can we try and drop the term 'bastard' (we basically have), and illegitimate while referring to people not born to married couples? The children are not illegitmate, and I do not understand using that term. Can we not move beyond those terms? Do we not think about the trauma and psychological damage to children by the use of that term? And, the lies told by adoptive parents to adoptees because we label children as illegitimate? What about that stigma? Screw old backwards laws that stigmatize children for nothing they did.
When referring to living persons, sure. Why not? When referring to how people were referred to in the past to direct folks in how to do genealogy research, we have to be historically accurate and avoid presentism. For more on: What's Wrong About Presentism in Family History Books ruclips.net/video/nymcr6ng0F0/видео.html We can not go back in time to documentations that recorded a child was ilegítimo or government entities that created bastardy bonds. Those are what they are called. Thus, to direct individuals in how to research these records, we have to use the relevant terminology. I did my best to cover the use of the sensitive nature of this term in the video. Did you miss that portion?
In my research I've found some German records have the word "unehelich" written below the child's name. The mother's name is written first and the mother's father's is mentioned below her. I've found the fathers of the child is mentioned only if they later get married, and that marriage date is referenced. In some records in Lithuania these childrens' records are written upside-down in the church books compared to the rest and both parents are mentioned if they are known. This is sometimes done in German records as well.
Ginny Churning What if Grandfather's mother was Chinese? My father was born out of wedlock. My Grandmother ran off with the man who was the father of her child and she was retrieved and not allow to be with the man who was the father of her child. If she had picked a man who was not biracial, half American, and half Chinese, she probably would've been allowed to marry and have her child with him. The stigma of having an illegitimate interracial child in 1930 wasn't the same as it is today. How common was were these interracial relationships in the first half 1900s and which is the best DNA test for someone who is possible of Chinese descent?
Interracial relationships were more common than people realize but there is no firm percentage that I can offer. As genealogists, we always have to be open to this possibility. The participation of individuals with Chinese heritage is rather small. Several Asian countries heavily restrict access to DNA testing. Additionally, some citizens of Asian countries are losing their class status when research reveals that they descend from a lower class. This puts more hesitancy on participation. All that to say, the best test is the database that your relatives might be in. Since you won't know which one that is, we recommend that you test with Ancestry and 23andMe. Then transfer your DNA to MyHeritage, Family Tree DNA, and GedMatch. That way you're only paying for two tests, and two reduced priced transfer fees. Don't bother with LivingDNA since you're searching for Chinese heritage and they focus on Living DNA.
You bring up something I have wondered, how much of the population are we actually seeing in the older censuses, say previous to 1850? Are the illegitimate children, orphans, the mentally ill, the "bums" all counted or are they invisible? Does it depend on which state, or if they were home that day when the enumerator was there? A major beef I have with genealogy is that there are so many blind alleys like this. I have a 4th great grandmother that I have turned the world upside down to find... now you have me thinking this angle. Where do I find a genetic genealogist? Enid Adams, a professional genealogist and in-law a couple generations ago searched for this woman for 50 years(on and off) and never found out who she was. She did trips to the Delaware Archives, etc etc. The research she did was incredible, actually. But this woman remained a secret to her. When DNA came out I thought ALRIGHT! Then I learned that 4th generation requires a lot of testers(which I have) then the latest I learned I need some older people descendants with 3rd generation connection and I have only found 1 and she is not healthy and may not be alive.
To your question " Are the illegitimate children, orphans, the mentally ill, the "bums" all counted or are they invisible? " It depends. Sometimes the children are in locations and home and hiding under names we don't recognize. Many of the "deaf, dumb, and blind" were recorded and many sanitoriums listed their patients (along with jails and their inmates in post 1850 census records. Prior to 1840, you're only going to find the heads of households or institutions, so it's very difficult to find people in those records. As to how to find professional genealogists, check out the directory here www.apgen.org/cpages/home. You'll want to search for a genetic genealogist and someone familiar with Delaware research. (You might have to find two different people to tackle your question more in-depth). If you don't want to vet those professionals, then Legacy Tree Genealogists has a team that could develop a project for you to tackle the record and the DNA efforts in one item. www.legacytree.com/fhfanatics Good luck
I have wheedled down an illegitimate father to one of 3 brothers: none of whom had legitimate descendants! An address (unfortunately a death certificate) suggests the 'couple' were living in the same house though the possible father was married to the sister. The Police Gazette suggests the other 2 who were commercial travellers, were working in the cotton industry in the same town in the year in question. Genetic distance rules out the 4th brother whose descendants tested on Ancestry. Y chromosome/surname and area confirm the Paternal Line. Unfortunately DNA doesn't help to differentiate the brothers.
Any advice if your ancestors were the first to settle parts of the county where the dating pool was small and playing musical chairs with other married partners was common? How about an unknown father being hidden under a different name?
Would this help in trying to identify a DNA match, that doesn't seem to match at all? I have someone who is a DNA match and is mixed in between a 1st cousin 1x removed and a half 1st cousin 1x removed but I can't find a common ancestor, and I've gone back 5 generations on her tree using a "floating tree" for hints, but nothing seems to match anyone on my tree. She won't answer me.
The methodology works on many projects. Take a test, do descendancy research, research the expanded community (men in the woman's life). For that close of a cousin, chances are the lack of response could be that the DNA tester doesn't know an answer to your question, or has discovered some information they weren't expecting. To attempt to isolate your relationship to this person, plug in your shared cMs in this chart dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4. Then look at where the common ancestor could appear on their chart and yours and look for people who might be in the same town at the same time. This is sort of what we did to figure out who my biological great-grandfather was.
My great grandfather. My grandfather dad he knew and his mom but they would not tell us his name we know his ethnicity and what city and his businesses but that's it I need help any ideas how ty
Do you know of any video's that tell how to figure out incest? I suspect my paternal maternal great grandparents were half siblings. It's a long story but in short I am unable to track down four set's of great grandparents on my paternal line. I am able to track down three but not the set of great grandparents for my paternal Grandmother's birth father.
Awesome. Thanks for pointing that out. I have mentioned Catholic records before on this channel. They aren't French Canadian but I still love Catholic records. ruclips.net/video/nQfk1SHaq7U/видео.html
Watching this I am thinking of something I find a bit funny (LOL funny). I am youngest of 5 siblings... My father had 2 older sisters and 6 brothers (1 of them older) that lived to become grown ups. His father, my grandfather had 2 older sisters - he was youngest of 3 siblings. 1 of his sisters had 1 son who is alive - he has no children, my grandfather´s other sister was childless. And now to what I find so funny... my grandfather has 220 descendants who are alive today... Writing about my great grandfather, the father of my father was an only son, not yet 5 years old when his father died. The father of my father´s father had in total 16 half-siblings and no full siblings. His parents were not married - never did marry, partly because his father was already married - He drowned 49 years old. He has 221 descendants alive today. My Great-great-grandfather had 1 child before he married, and 10 children with his wife... my grandfather was a "by-blow" who he and his wife raised with the children they had together - at least for the first 15 years or so... in the census that year his oldest child lived at his house too. Well, out of his 259 descendants, 221 are alive today. His father had only 1 child... but out of total 260 descendants, 221 are alive today. See the trend? Now his father had 4 children and 3.564 descendants total... 3.052 alive today... I am not able to see how many of the 2.831 are descendant from each of his other 3 children. But all the descendants of my great-great-great grandfather only existing because his son, at 37 year of age and father of 8, was unfaithful to his wife and got a (then) 19 year old girl pregnant... My great grandfather was only 3 days older than one of his (legitimate) half-brothers.
Does this help when you have researched generations based on say what your grandparents told you only to find their birth records BOTH missing fathers and one listing a mother who was a younger sister to the person you were raised knowing as your great-grandfather? To make things difficult, the "known" great-grandparents only had one child. The "discovered" mother married 5 years later, then that union only had one child. Please help!
Wow this sounds like you're uncovering some hidden family truths - I believe this video will be very helpful if I'm understanding you correctly. If I may ask: do I have the following correct? 1. Your grandparents told vague stories about their own parents but when you started searching records a. neither birth listing nor any records have a father's name at all and b. the mother's name on one birth record is filled out, but that's not who you were told about, it's the little sister? (I.e. Who you thought was your great grand aunt?) ..do I have that right?
@@borreliaetc you're pretty dead on. Both paternal grandparents have missing fathers, well grandfather only has a first name listed but looks like he was registered after who I was told was the father killed in WWI. My grandparents marriage certificate has who I raised knowing as my great-grandparents. Strange that when I started this as a teen in the 80s, my grandmother gave me names and dates of all 4 of her grandparents as well as my grandfathers. It was a chore finding my grandmothers 1912 birth certificate because of this discrepancy. Piecing dates and places together has me chasing my tail added to the fact they were both intertwined, not by blood though. Each mother was a family of 10-12. My grandfathers mothers brother married my grandmothers mothers sister. Confused? Lol not sure how to present that lol
I hope this video provides you some strategies to consider while tackling your specific research question. In my own complex research, I've found that learning methodology from a variety of different persons has helped numerous strategies to try. A combination from the collective knowledge of the educators helped me chip away at my research question. I hope I will give you some ideas, even if not the complete process you seek.
This is what I want to know! My 5th great grandparent’s name is ambiguous, so we don’t know if they’re male or female (Francis/Frances), but we’re leaning towards my 4th great grandfather being illegitimate.
5th great-grandparent can be challenging from genetic genealogy perspectives using autosomal DNA. You have a good portion of genealogical cousins who you do not share DNA with. Additionally, as you're finding in records, you can have much confusion. Whenever I struggle, I ensure I have fully researched the generations leading up to the 4th and 5th great-grandparents for every last clue that direct ancestors and their close family (aunts, uncles, siblings, cousins, etc) have to offer. Then, I begin to make possibility charts. Who could be available to be a father? With any luck, you inherited enough DNA from the 5th great-grandparent to match others with that same amount of DNA. Sadly, you're researching on the boundary of records and genetics. It's not guaranteed to be possible to figure out
My Dad's father was unknown. It was whispered that one man was his father and his mother told him the identity of his father was none of his business! He was home born and the birth certificate he had said father unknown. My mother, not knowing this (& being a little naive) sent off for his birth certificate and low and behold it had the name of a man who died shortly before his birth. My grandmother fingered a dead man probably to get the heat off of her from her elderly parents. DNA (Y & autosomal) proved that he was the son of the whispered man (and shared the middle name of the grandfather!). DNA is the ONLY proof that any of us are who we believe we are... 😉
Thanks so much for sharing this story Cheri. It's awesome that you lucked out with the birth certificate providing the name! IF only all would have such luck.
Excellent broadcast! I do have an illegitimate family member I am researching, I know there was a Paternity suit which resulted in the bio dad paying a large sum of money (HE DID IT!). Is there any way to find information about paternity suits in the early 1900s?
My first recommendation is to check for newspapers in the area where the suit likely occurred. If the sum was rather large, it might also have made the news in other parts of the country because that falls into the 'noteworthy' category, and many papers will grab news from other locations to print. Fingers crossed. Because if you do find any mention of the case during filing, hearings, and judgment, you will now have a date to help guide you in courthouse research. You will also learn the specific courthouse and, if you're really lucky, the court case number. With that information, then I would reach out to the courthouse in the county (or similar, depending on where in the world this took place) the suit was filed and adjudicated. Depending on the laws of that court, you might be able to access the case file. Give that a try, and let me know how it goes.
I would appreciate any ones help. For 5 years I have been in search of my Paternal Grandfathers identity. My Dad (now deceased at 93) always believed his father was not his biological father. From a London tailoring family, the second of four and his elder sister having another father, he believed that when his mother was reluctant to give him his birth cert, it wasnt just because, his parents werent married, it was because his father wasnt on the certificate. Now Dad took a DNA test. It proves his father was Jewish. Not unusual in the tailoring community. The nearest matches we have received are 2nd/ 3rd cousins Mainly now in the USA, (due to traveling away from Europe). I have traced back the trees of may be 20 or so close hits,. listed surnames, places etc. They are Ukraine/Polish in origin However, I fail to isolate Great Grand parents to trace Grand Dad. Any ideas.
And yet, that's the reality of the situation. Genealogy reveals many truths others tried to keep hidden. The question is, can we do this with compassion?
Thats great for one or two generations, but past generations are hard to find for illegitimate childs. My grandfather never married my grandmother, but had 9 recognized children, plus 13 other children with two women. All have been recorded. Also records might be tricky.
The limiting factor in this process wouldn't necessarily be one or two generations back. The limiting factor is actually the practices within various countries to document individuals. Oral history societies or societies that have destroyed or never kept records of individuals that genealogists use will make it harder for researchers to document their legitimate and illegitimate ancestors.
I will condense this story down a little. I started about seven years ago searching for my adopted daughter in laws family. The adopting family refused to help or share documents. She DNA tested but did not find anyone above 4th cousin. I finally figured out she needed to request her immigration records from USCIS. She sent all the Japanese documents to a 4th cousin in Japan. The cousin applied through the city where the birth record was filed. The 4th cousin said parts of the family registry was removed. The daughter in law was listed as third daughter. So she requested more information. Finally daughter in law received and email from the cousin on who and where her family was. The father was still a mystery. I eventually flew to Japan and with help of another 4th cousin we tracked down the mother. At first we tried to track down the sisters but no one knew them or where they were. We stopped at a local restaurant for lunch and the cousin was telling me a story about old people know everyone. He asked the old lady working in the restaurant if she knew the family, she said she knew them and where they lived. Before the daughter in law was able to prepare to make the trip Corona put an end to her trip.
Two references to the Bastardy Act of 1733: The Diary of a Country Parson: 1924 These so-called compulsory marriages, though not compulsory by law, were an inevitable effect of the law as it stood, specially of the Bastardy Act of 1733 (6 George II, c. 31). For under that Act a woman had only, upon oath before a justice, to charge any person with having gotten her with child to enable the said justice, on application of the overseers of the poor, to apprehend and imprison the man charged, unless he gave security to indemnify the parish. By another clause of the Act the marriage of the woman caused the release of the man from penalty. Hence, in numerous cases, if the man could not indemnify the parish, he preferred wedlock to imprisonment. The Rural World 1780-1850: Social Change in the English Countryside 1981 The Bastardy Act of 1733 provided one way out of the dilemma. Under this Act a pregnant woman had only to charge a man on oath before a magistrate with having got her with child to enable the magistrate ‘to apprehend and imprison the man’, unless he gave security to indemnify the parish from all expense. However, another clause of the Act authorized his release from penalty if he would agree to marry her. This meant that a pregnant unmarried woman would often be encouraged by parish officers to name as the putative father a man from a neighbouring village. Arrangements would then be put in hand to secure a marriage and, with it, the woman’s settlement in her husband’s community. Parson Woodforde officiated at one such forced marriage in Norfolk in January 1787:
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Your welcome. Found both books on the internet archive. Great source for older books with state and county history and biography, often written at a time when ancestors were still living. Unfortunately, I have been unable to get past a great-great grandfather with only a last name and great-great grandmother with a first name spelled five different ways on various records, none of them recording a marriage between these two. They had a child, my great grandmother, with a birth certificate listing only the father's last name in 1867. By 1880, the child was listed as the step daughter of the mother who had married another man in 1872. The child's death certificate lists the father's first name, but provides little else. Sorry about the lack of specifics, I'm not at present looking for other people's assistance in my research, just an explanation of how I got here.
😢 i feel like it hopeless 😔 ill never find harvey dad all i know his mom mary and his step dad Henry his last name is cope but idk i believe its his mom last name but so unsure
How can I get German records but I am born in UK. They have sent me so many forms - - Im the Grand daughter rightly. And have hardly any knowledge of their heritage
I'm not entirely sure I understand your question. I'm not sure who sent you so many forms. In my experience, many German church records are accessible through hired professionals since the church leaders do not have the time or energy to dig in the archives. However, more and more German records are available online. Check out the various resources by looking at this website. www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Germany_Genealogy
I'm not sure what you mean by Swiss Records being locked own. Whenever I'm uncertain about records, I visit the FamilySearch Wiki for insights. Check out this page. www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Switzerland_Genealogy
Great question. I would do a Leeds Chart to isolate the DNA matches for t your grandparent lines. Then, target the one, if you find it, for the ancestor that has the illegitimate child. From there, you can then work on the DNA matches. You could also test out Ancestry ThruLines and Theories of Family Relativity by inserting a possible father into your family tree to see what results might turn up. Theories of Family Relativity only update a few times a year. ThruLines update within 24 -48 hours of you making a change.
Since genealogy is a branch of history and the historical records frequently use the term "illegitimate" or "bastard", we'll continue to use these terms.
my Fathers Birth certificate states " illegitimate". I did a DNA and so did my nephew. I found a 4th cousin who is related to the man who I thought was my Grandfather and who was married to my Grandmother 4 years after my Father was born. But I cant find any closer DNA links can I assume that I have found my Grandfather. many of the closer relatives either say we are not a match or haven't done a DNA. '
You can't assume, but you can suspect. You would need to do descendancy research on the common ancestor with the 4th cousin. You don't share DNA with all descendants of the common ancestor, but you might be related to that 4th cousin in a different way. So you're trying to rule out all theories by doing various testing.
I have an ancestor who had a mother who was white and he was colored. We don't know who his father is. How do I go about this during a time when slavery was taking place when he was born in 1829 in Williamson County, TN
You have a very difficult challenge. First, learn about how to research African American Genealogy. Here's a great video. Research African American Ancestors on Ancestry | Guest - Crista Cowan ruclips.net/video/gVLTPQ-gL9g/видео.html Then, you'll have to take DNA tests and build a genetic family tree. Test with Ancestry and 23andMe and transfer your results into GEDmatch, MyHeritage, and FamilyTreeDNA. You never know where your genetic relatives will be. With patience and a little bit of lucky, you might push your ancestry back one or more generations. Good luck.
Great video! But, I hope that your channel/company will recognize that for many genealogical researchers DNA testing is never going to happen. It would be very helpful if your video topics took that into consideration when producing and publishing your videos. Most researchers that I know are older people who really are not equipped to learn how to use DNA results and tracking. Personally, I have listened to several lecture videos about using DNA results, and I do realize that it is no simple thing to just plug in and go. There are other reasons that people are not interested in testing their DNA, for a myriad of reasons. I recognize that there could be a lot of avenues of information that might be discovered by DNA testing. Then, again maybe not. I just ask that instructional videos recognize that using DNA testing is not an option in at least half of the active genealogists that might be watching your videos. If a video is about a research technique that entails DNA testing, please indicate that in the title. Otherwise, I really enjoy your videos. I appreciate the manner in which you spoke of illegitimacy in various eras. I am researching a Canadian woman that had been brought over as part of the British Home Children projects. Only a few of her grandchildren are still alive, and no one had known about this. I made the discovery when told a couple of things Matilda had said about her childhood. Matilda was born in Hampshire England in 1886 and shipped to Canada May 31, 1891 as an indentured servant. Over 100,000 children were sent to Canada as indentured servants between 1870 and 1930. They came from workhouses and sent to be farm labor mostly. Few were adopted. Some died. Anyway, thank you.
I appreciate your feedback. I invite you to watch more videos where I am the educator, not my husband. Folks who have watched my videos have come to know that I'm the Debbie Downer of DNA. It doesn't work that well for me for various reasons (Some of which I mentioned in this video ruclips.net/video/uF9pnHHJDBA/видео.html ). Thus, nearly all of my videos discuss genealogical records and methodology, which people of any age can access. I will mention that DNA is a tool, but not the only tool... like I did in this video. Meanwhile, my husband is the DNA Guy on this channel. If you see green background thumbnails or a man in the thumbnail, you'll probably want to not watch those. They are DNA related. Since genealogy research has many tools, we strive to offer enough content for where people are in their process and what they're ready to learn. Over 1/2 of the 600 videos on our channel do not have anything to do with DNA. I hope you'll watch more of those.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Thank you. I will look for your videos. Your son has been making some pretty good videos as well! He's quite a charming young fellow. You must be very proud of him.
Very true. I thought I covered that in a different video. Was it this one? ruclips.net/video/M8lm9HOHwZY/видео.html In any case, thanks for the reminder. Repetition is the first law of learning.
This was VERY common in Scotland - especially in the highlands where priests could not always get to the parish to marry the couples. I have one ancestress who was baptised at age 14, but her parents were never married. This is in the Scottish highlands. As far as I can tell there is no record of anyone in Scotland shaming her for being born out of wedlock, but as soon as she emigrated out of the UK, the English colonists in the new country were very scathing towards her mother calling her a "loose woman". I was horrified!!! The English had a lot more hangups about children being born outside of marriage than the Scots did!! And yet those same english people also had bastards as well. Which makes the English people very HYPOCRITICAL indeed.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics No problem. Yes, I think it was this one, plus I've been researching a Scottish ancestor, who was born in St. Vigeans, Arbroath, Angus (Forfarshire), Scotland. I didn't see any marriage records for her, but she did give birth to several children and gave them Laird as a surname. One of those children was my second great-grandfather, Wallace Ritchie Laird.
I have not found my Chandler NPE (at Big Y Group 7A Chandler Y-chromosome DNA Project) BUT through Ancestry DNA matches I am at a pretty high percent sure of when and where the NPE was NOT. That the NPE was either my great-great-great grandfather or some time before but that it was not after that. FTDNA matches did not help. Also a research trip to the old family stomping grounds (Guntersville, AL) were helpful in narrowing things down as well. It also helps that on both sides (maternal and paternal) I have matches at Ancestry DNA of close family, first and second cousins and also others whose family trees match a number of my known researched ancestors. Some I'm not so sure and am doing research myself -- like JONES in Jones Chapel, Cullman Co, AL. Presumptions were made by others based on circumstantial evidence (especially census) so I need to be more certain. Just because I match their DNA does not mean their research is accurate. My great-great grandmother was Elizabeth P. (Jones) Young! Talk about a needle in a haystack! ;-) Lucky she filed for the pension of the service of my great-great grandfather, John Wesley Young (Alabama 1st Cavalry, Union died of disease during the war) and gave her marriage details (Winston County, AL -- officially all lost before 1891) which I otherwise would not have. Fold3 helped there.
I have an incredible special story. One of the greatest desires of my life is to present and verify my research findings with you as professional researchers. I will briefly describe my story. I am Hungarian and one of my grandfathers was officially born an illegal child. After a year of investigation, it turned out that a colonial American Wheelwright was my great-grandfather. Once in a lifetime, I would really like to share and comment on this research result with you. It would also provide you with a lot of new lessons as experienced researchers.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Actually, I haven’t written this story there yet because no one has cared yet. He is my great -great-grandfather who was born in Hungary as an illegal child, and the clues lead to Brooklyn 4th ward. LHCR-D9B The story of this whole investigation of mine is very complex, I have collected a lot of data over the years and there are incredible shocking events in this story as well. When I say amazing, it’s seriously amazing Just an example. My great-grandfather Dezső Bajnóczy had a secret son that no one in Hungary knew about except his mother and father. He was also called Dezső Bajnóczy and he was the 4th Ward of Brooklyn. Right where the Wheelwright family lived. And the mother of this hidden child was called Ilona Bajnóczy, just like my great-grandmother. But genetically, we have nothing to do with that Ilona Bajnóczy. But it is a very rough coincidence.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Don’t give it a second thought. I was being a grumpy old lady right then. I actually found my dad’s real father via my brother doing the big Y 700. About the same time we got those shocking results we began to get lots of autosomal matches, 2 at 1st cousin level! But they all shared a common male ancestor with a different surname than our Y matches, and we had about 60 Y matches!!!! I solved it last month using both kinds of records and the tree of both kinds of matches. It turned out my dad’s real father was surnamed Phillips. But his Phillips great grandfather born in about 1818 was also either illegitimate or changed his name on purpose. One of their males Y tested and matched my brother and has all the same Y matches. The whole direct male line ls actually Sutherland! We know this because a total stranger Y tested that was my brothers super duper close big Y 700 match. Super rare and super lucky! Also, we have distant autosomal matches that are ancestors of that same exactly family. Our matches earliest know male (at the time he tested) is the brother of the two Sutherland women we had distant autosomal ancestor matches with. In fact, since that time, I found 2 more that lead back to the same family. But I have been working on this for 2 and a half years. It was a rough an emotional road. But the good news is that it turned out our men are direct male line descendants of the progenitor of the Sutherland clan. My brother was even contacted by a historical project being done in Scotland at the time about the Declaration of Arbroath and Y DNA of the descendants of the signers. It was stunning to learn all of this. There are allot of shocked families involved in this!……8-). It just takes the right person to take the right DNA test and then work hard but continue to be patient. We share a 3x great grand father with our Big Y DNA match. I also need to learn that Kentucky was once part of the Virginia Territory. You get allot of history lessons when you work on these kinds of situations……8-).
I'm so glad we could clear the air. Thanks for sharing your story with me as well. BTW.. YT hides follow-up comments. That's why I wasn't able to respond right away. Next time, start a new thread so I will be notified.
I don't get offended easily but I have to say this video definitely did. Those of us that are "illegitimate" already know we are so to be referred to as just that on RUclips or a genealogical database now or long after being dead legit will not be something I want anything to do with.
From the show notes: "** Be advised, the terms bastard born and illegitimate are used in this genealogical sense of the word." In more modern terms, we would likely use born out of wedlock.
I LOVE my audience... Retta you get the gold star for reading the description. I knew this battle was going to wage, but as I studied methodology and history, I opted for the genealogical definition of the term.. which will be explained in the video as well.
Am I to understand that you would prefer that I use terminology that appeals to modern sensitivities rather than answers the specific questions my students ask or that is historically accurate? As a teacher, I looked to one of the greatest teachers for guidance. A quote attributed to Confusious began, ""He who takes offense when none is intended.."
A good teacher uses the terms that the students will have to search for to find the answers, so Devon used the correct genealogical terms. Some states, I have learned, have Bastardy Rolls that can be researched. If the teacher did not use terms that the students must look for in records from courts and churches, the students would not be able to do the research.
My father was illegitimate and the word bastard was extremely hurtful growing up, but as an English teacher he would be the first to tell you that illegitimate is literally the definition of a bastard. I think you're getting caught up in the connotation of the word...
We have to use the genealogically correct terms we discover on historical documents. We can change the terminology in our family history projects, but we have to be aware of what was used in the past so we understand the records we review.
Very good video. When I started my family history research 40 years ago, as I was headed out the door to check out cemeteries and courthouses, my father pulled me aside and said, "What you're going to find is that your great grandfather was a "woods colt." ("Woods colt" meant a child born "in the woods" so to speak with the father being unknown -- in other words a bastard child.) When my great grandfather became an adult he had taken the surname Collins, which we concluded to mean that he knew his father's identity -- and that his mother had given him this info. Fast forward 100 years and anyone who knew that story had taken it to their graves.
I got a copy of my great grandfather's death certificate. It listed his mother's name (and maiden name), but in the box for "father" it simply said "Don't Know." Also, sometimes courthouses will have bastardy files, and the putative father would be required to post a bond to provide for the support of the child. I searched, but had no luck on that.
So, yes, the first step is to build your family tree as best you can. Then look around for suspects. We had three likely candidates for the paternity. But this was many years before DNA projects. I think it would have been impossible, at least in my case, to confirm paternity before DNA databases. I had researched every Collins family which lived in the area in the 1800s. When the first DNA projects started up, I was ready and managed to get a descendant of each Collins family group to participate. Turned out that based on the DNA results, the several Collins families in the area were not even related to each other, and none related to my Collins line.
Then suddenly I had a match from a Collins in a distant state who positively had a common Collins male ancestor but was not a descendant of my great grandfather -- meaning our common ancestor was further back. So building your family tree is essential. We researched my newfound cousin's ancestry and it led straight back to one of the three "suspects" -- and the other two suspects had been ruled out by DNA. The suspect (my great grandfather's father) had moved to Alabama shortly after my great grandfather was born, but records showed him living just down the road from my great grandfather's mother at the time.
Just thought I would share my own story. So I guess another tip would be Patience. Do your research, put your DNA profile out there.
I LOVED reading your story and your due diligence in researching your case. I haven't heard of the woods colt terminology either. Thanks for teaching me something new.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Thank you for sharing, this is a very informative article.
My journey into genealogy was started by a simple question that has stood for 94 years. My paternal grandfather was an illegitimate child and all the people that would have known the truth had taken that knowledge to the grave, and yes I did solve it!
My maternal grandmother's father is unknown to us except a very generic name. Do you have any hints to offer as to how you solved it?
@@fireflyfarmletontheeno777 I knew the small town he was born in and I knew the surname of the family he came from. That helped a lot but it really comes down to being lucky and finding cousins that got dna tested. In my case a 1/2 1st cousin once removed that descendant from the mystery father. A 192 cm match was conclusive.
Congrats on solving your mystery.
Firefly... this is a channel member only video but it has many tips on how we discovered my grandmother's biological father with even less information than you have. For $2.99, it's a great value. ruclips.net/video/ezfU641aOuo/видео.html
@@fireflyfarmletontheeno777 DNA's always the answer of course. I assume you've got the closest living relative to do the test?
Great video! I have an ancestor who was abandoned in Italy. They had "foundling wheels" on churches at that time, which allowed mothers to set their babies on the wheel from the outside of the church, then turn the wheel to spin the baby to the inside of the church. They were designed to protect the anonymity of the mothers, while protecting the babies lives. It was an economically rough time when my ancestor was born, so the mother must have thought her child would have a better life being raised in the church orphanage. I'll be putting your ideas to work. Can't wait to see what I can find.
I had exactly this very same situation happen on my maternal side. TWICE. Not only did I use DNA cousin matching (supplemented by targeted historical research) to determine that my Mom had a different biological father, but I also found that the same thing had happened some 40 years earlier with HER Mom as well! And we had never previously suspected any illegitimacies, nor that we had the fathers all wrong. It was those 1st and 2nd cousin matches who were totally unknown to me that got me to wondering and digging around. The result being that 75% of my Mom's tree is now totally new to us! We're still dealing with the emotional fallout. ... But what I want to stress here is that I have been exceedingly CAREFUL and RIGOROUS. And that the evidence, IMO, is both compelling and incontrovertible. I'll be happy to explain the details if asked. (And BTW, I'm no novice when it comes to analyzing genetic science.)
I appreciate you mentioning the fallout of discovering your family tree being different than what you expected. That's a reality many need to consider and be open to discussing.
I appreciate your hard work in building your family tree. It sounds like you're doing some great work.
In Norway the term was uægte, which now would be uekte. Basically unauthorized. The mother was compelled to name the father. In very early christenings, there was no info on whether or not the parents were married, but eventually it became standard. Paternity cases can be requested, if you find out where they're housed today.
Wow!!! I love learning tidbits from around the world. Thank you for taking time to share.
On Swedish 19th century indexed birth records, there are two columns. One for marital status, Civilstånd, under which there are two sub columns: Äkta for “genuine,” amongst other similar meanings, and Oäkta for “bastard,” or “unauthentic.” The other column is Dödfödda for stillborn with the same sub columns as Civilstånd. There are quite a few oäktas barn. Fairly common in old Swedish birth records. Often helpful to compare to village church records, if it didn’t burn down, because a father often appears there when he doesn’t appear on the birth record itself.
I have two very much suspected illegitimate ancestors. One is a great great grandfather, the other is a great great great grandfather. DNA is helping to give clues. Haven't solved either problem yet. Working on it.
Keep up the research. When your project gets stuck for a bit, work on something else to keep your genealogy skills sharp. Then come back and see if any new resources help move your search forward.
Great tips - but, sadly it hasn't helped for me find my Great Grandfather. My Grandmother, Dorothy Violet Langdon was born 5th Sept 1896, to Mary Jane Langdon, the father of Dorothy on the birth certificate is blank! Just before my Gran died in 1994 she told one of my cousins that her father had died in an accident before she was born. She described the accident as a pony and trap accident. I've done a lot of research over the years and found an inquest of the death of one man, who fits perfectly. They lived in the same geographical area, they were both single, both of the same age AND he died in Jan 1896 - now I'm still left wondering whether he was my Great Grandfather. I need DNA to confirm this, as without it, it's just guess work, which I don't add to my tree.
It actually sounds like you're following much of what I've already described. Develop a list of potential fathers, search records about the individuals. Now, you need to do descendancy research to find possible test takers and then use that to compare your DNA. Also explore additional men who were in in Mary Jane's world. It might not be the one people spoke of. Repeat the descendancy research process and see of those descendants have tested. Sometimes we have to rule out theories to confirm the ones we suspect.
Karina, have YOU taken a DNA test? It may be relatively easy to find...
@@StokesCheri I have, and as yet haven't come across anyone that doesn't have family connections I know of... Hopefully I'll find someone from my missing great-grandfather's ancestors one day.
@@Kari_B61ex Statistically, there pretty-much have to be some people already in your DNA match-list who are related to your great grandfather. It's usually a lot of work to identify them though, but it can be done.
How? Because I think my great grandma had a different father than who is listed but I can't figure it out. I haveatched to 3rd cousins that won't answer me and such
Sometimes the ancestor can be surprisingly helpful without maybe even knowing it.
I have a distant illegitimate great grandfather that took his mothers maiden name as his own, but also kept his biological fathers surname for his middle name.
His mothers maiden name carried on down to all the descendants including my 2x Grandmother and his fathers middle name pops up on the records through some of the male descendants as well.
That's a perfect example! Thanks so much for sharing.
Almost a pirate, my mariner ancestor was sued for bastardy: that is how I found out the mother's name. Another description is "base born".
Thanks for the additional description. I love court cases. They can reveal a lot of details!
Yes, I do have (at least!) one in my tree - ME! I didn't know that I was illegitimate until I was 53 years old. My mother was married. I was born into that marriage, but not from it. Her husband - my daddy - was not my biological father.
As my mother just died this past Sunday, and she had stopped talking to me over this discovery already, there will be no more answers from her about how I came to be.
It took me 8 months from discovery to finding my bio paternal grandparents and another 8 months to the confirmation of my paternity.
It certainly was not what I was expecting when I initially took the AncestryDNA test. I was just trying to find my brick wall 2nd great-grandma's family and grow our family tree in the process. Instead, it couldn't have been split in half any better if a lightening bolt had struck it.
PS The show notes link isn't working for me. It says, "We couldn't find this page."
Taking a DNA test really is like opening a can of worms. I'm glad you were able to make such gains so quickly. Others haven't been so lucky. I'm also sorry for your loss. Losing a mother was the hardest thing. Nearly 10 years later, Christmas is now the hardest time of the year because she died on December 10th.
Thanks for letting me know the link was incomplete. Here it is and I've also updated it in the description. www.familyhistoryfanatics.com/post/finding-your-illegitimate-ancestors-father
Jan 2020, at 54, I realized my dad was not my bio father. My mother was pregnant when she married my dad. I met a bio cousin who was very helpful in figuring out who bio father is, however, he is in complete denial. This DNA information can get crazy!
@@memellie I am so sorry that you've had to endure this, too. I hope that your bio father will come around. Just like for us, it is something that our bio fathers have to work through and process, especially those that never knew we existed.
I am glad that you've had a helpful cousin along the way. I did, too. Cousins can be great folks. :)
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics I don't know what happened to my original reply to you. You're welcome in regards to the show notes. Thanks for the new link.
I am so sorry for the loss of your mother. Regardless of how much time may have passed, the loss of such a close loved one will always tug at our hearts.
Yes! This can help in the realm of adoptees too.
Yep. Yep. Yep.
alan headrick- It does NOT help adoptees who have no info.
@@STICKITINYOUREAR We were able to get a hold of immigration records. No info would be hard, just test and send messages.
@@alanheadrick7997 - No birth record, no census record, no immigration record . So, please don't tell me how easy it can be done !
@@STICKITINYOUREAR No its never easy. It took me 10 years to find my daughter in law's mother. In the end I had to fly to Japan meet a cousin to track her down.
Check with your DNA matches and find someone who will help you out. I feel it takes a second person to double check things as you go.
My Grandmother was pregnant when she married my Das stepdad, he and his brother where already here. I didn’t know this until I was an adult and he had a stroke so I didn’t get to ask him anything else. I did DNA and it brought a 1st or 2nd cousin in PA but he said his Dad is adopted and has no idea where from, this guy matches me most on ancestry. I know who my Dad thought his Dad was but I have no proof and no one by that name has come up. I don’t know if I will ever know it wasn’t that long ago really 1932. He doesn’t have a birth certificate. Definitely a brick wall for me. Thanks your sharing your knowledge with us it’s very kind.
Thank you for sharing your struggles. Try to research the life of the potential father. Then see if there are any living descendants that have tested or would test. It could either confirm or refute the possiblitiy.
So what if you’re trying to find the father of an ancestor who happened to be their “owner” I’m African American and I match with alot of European Americans and would like to find out how I connect with one 2 cousins
Well you know this is close to my heart! Thanks, Devon! I appreciate you and Andy so much!!
Any time!
I had a few ancestors who presented themselves as married when in fact they were definitely not married (which amazed me; I want to do a RUclips video on it as its too complicated to type - lots of alias surnames)
Make the video or write a research report. Whatever you do, share your explanation on how you solved your mystery.
I'm in the same predicament. My mothers Paternal side 2nd great grandfather was illegitimate. He took his mothers maiden name. Luckily I had my mothers paternal uncle DNA tested in hope that would give better results, with him being his great grandmother and the unknown father being his 2nd great grandfather. But sadly no matches through the unknown father, we're on all the DNA sites too.
That's when you need to search for the men in 3rd great grandmother's life and do descendancy research to find potential matches. Hopefully you can find some folks still living to help you rule out and rule in your theories.
Great video! Always a difficult research issue - thanks for covering it well!
Aw. Thanks so much.
I am trying to find my bio daughters father. Yes I know I should know but i dont. its been difficult because everyone is alive still.
Have spent many hours in Austrian church records of the 17th through 19th century. Many of the issues you note in the Mexican church records are there as well, though the frequency of finding a father is spotty: you either find a completely blank spot in the record, in which case you've truly hit a brick wall, or you find the magical "wall of text" which usually lists the man taking responsibility and several witnesses. Some parishes, at certain points in time, kept separate record books for children born in and out of wedlock.
Wow. Thanks Kevin. I love that folks can share their knowledge in this community. I also love the phrase "Magical Wall of Text".
It's often the case where you know it's one of a group of brothers from a family due to dna matches, but can't isolate which one.
That's the case. That's when we have to layer genealogical research to try to figure out who was in the right place at the right time to create life. Andy figured this out in this video .How Andy Discovered Devon's Bio Grandpa With DNA ruclips.net/video/ezfU641aOuo/видео.html
My boat too: a 2C1R (@ 116cM) has led me to this match's grandmother 's 8 brothers....all pretty much in the right place, right time. (This is one of my "strong "lines- matches in all directions.)
Just so I don't get too confident- I've also reason to believe that Gram's mother was actually one of her older "sisters ".
Since I share DNA with descendants of the (now) grandmother, I am encouraged to conclude she did fit in this family somewhere.
(Her (now) grandfather seems to share no DNA with anyone bearing either of the names he went by- but I sure have matches with several well-known families in his area! They married each other a lot. One of these lines shows a fair bit of pedigree collapse- to the point where I wonder what incest would look like at that generation distance....)
"Chronicling America" to the rescue! The Culprit was one of three brothers. One of the gossip columns in the area had that So-and-So took Such-and-Such to Salem for a holiday. Said Holiday was nine months and ten days before birth of Target Child. Descendants of Target Child have a 1/2 first cousin, once removed, whose DNA results purty well confirm the story.
Yes. After nearly three years of research, I still cannot find any documents outside of those I've found in Arkansas pre and post Civil War. It's very frustrating. And only three of my grandfather's descendants (myself included) have taken DNA tests.
leeds method. See if you can find common ancestors between different shared matches. Sometimes if you get a high match, you can get lucky. I had a lady who thankfully named his mother (but not father) on his adoption record. (was born with his mothers maiden name) Now if she knew genealogy better, she would of been able to find the connection with 2 100cm matches, but she doesn't understand genealogy sadly. Then my father took a DNA test and he matched in the 500's which was the highest of her unknown matches. My father pawned her off to me which was just fine. With a very uncommon surname and matching my father, it took me literally 2 seconds to tell her exactly whom her fathers mother was when she told me the name. Fastest DNA matching i've ever done.
The thing with illegitimate children is, depending on ethnic group, you may never find out. This is my case, though my grandmother was not born illegitimate, her father whom went by "Coleman" was by no means his real surname! Her brother wasn't born illegitimate either, but in reality DNA told us that after 60+ years later, an affair happened and he is only a half brother to my grandmother. After all these years, i was left to find whom my grandmothers father was, as her fathers father was not the same. (she figured out whom he was, myself, i still don't know as DNA matches take me to 2 people who only share 1 thing in common. Same ethnic group, they weren't a married couple by any means, so their child was def born illegimate but he's not on any records... and though a girl with his surname is a witness, they are -not- related, nor lived together)
In Spanish you also have "expósito" (abandoned in a shelter or orphanage).
Thanks so much. I'm just barely learning about New Mexican church records and I haven't come across that word just yet.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics I do not think you will find this word on church records, but there are some orphanages called "casa de expósitos" and maybe they have their own records available. And there are also some records about "dote" (dowry for marriage) to orphans and "expósitas" (girls).
Looking forward to this video. 2nd great grandfathers father can't be identified. My 2nd g-grandfather was born between 1822 to 1824 in Kentucky and his mother married in White county Illinois in 1825. He never took the surname of his stepfather. I have uploaded my Familty Tree dna to GEDmatch, Wikitree and MyHeritage. I have found other cousins that are descendants of this 2nd great grandfather. So far I have not matched any dna with anyone with his surname before him. I am not even sure if he has his mothers surname or she was married at age 15 or 16 or what.
Wow - I have a very similar situation during that time, only it's in Maryland.
My 3rd great grandfather Henry P Snyder (Schneider/Snider) was born about 1825, married in Maryland and had kids, they moved to Indiana and had more kids... The 1880 census says his parents were from Maryland, too, but I cannot find any other clues.
Good luck on your search!
@@borreliaetc good luck to you as well
Good luck to you both. I hope the section about researching all the men in your 2nd great-grandfather's mother's life will be helpful. Let me know after you view the video.
Yup: Nfld marriage records are quite good- not indexed- but a team of volunteers has transcribed them - unfortunately some more conscientious, accurate, than others. (My zone is a dream!) My search for which Patience married my 2nd ggrf produced none that fitted the profile of mother of their known descendants- gt gram's siblings, & source of nearly half my total matches.
I also searched baptisms- eventually finding one c. 1837 "of a girl age "about 13"....father who I thought, but - her mother would have been about 14...?
Also found her a brother- no question asked about marriage status of parents.
From frustration, I put the lot of them in my tree- & waited to see what Ancestry ThruLines would do.
I got at least 40 new matches through each of Patience ' maternal grandparents.
I rested my case. (Now I see why I have descendants of both Jonathan & his cousin Martin in my matches...)
My mother was illegitimate and later adopted out - she and I had to do a DNA test in order to find her fathers family. And we were successful. However being an Irish Catholic family, they are quite reluctant to do any DNA tests because of the "Scandal".
But there are also two other females further back (mid 1800s) in my tree, both born in England. One on my mothers side and the other on my fathers side - for whom we have either no records or no father listed. One girl was totally abandoned. Her baptismal record literally says - Mary Found on the street - and FOUND became her surname. It is possible that I have DNA connections, but so far it is impossible to know. The other girl has a mother but no father and a middle name that MIGHT point to the father. She grew up and got married but the father whom she listed on her marriage record does not have the same name as her middle name. Again, DNA may help, but i have no idea where to start.
You have already started... by taking DNA tests and researching the paper trail. With the foundling, that might be stuck until you have processed all possible DNA matches using the advanced techniques Andy teaches.
As for the second one where you know the mother's name, you follow the steps I shared here. Find the men in the mother's world and test out hypothesis on paper and through DNA combined.
I have a 2nd great grandfather who's surname is his mother's, obviously there is something funny there, and my dna matches have all types of ideas for why this happened, including that he was a product of a brother/sister relationship! I will use some of your tips, and see what I find...I appreciate the ideas in this video...
I have a lot of Catholic relatives(everyone, lol), too, as I'm mostly Scots Irish and Italian...my German, Bavarian relatives, from way, back, list if the baby is legitimate or not, as well, and it's a rude question, lol, but I wish they did it everywhere!
I do appreciate the deeper genealogy tips, because I feel like I have heard and done, everything else! So thank you!
You're welcome. Often I share some of the same tips in a new way or a new tip or two. My major goal is to get people thinking. The brain loves to solve mysteries and answer questions, we just have to learn to ask the right ones.
Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
Thank you, but I need some advice: I found a line where I matched other DNA matches, and digging in, I found three brothers. I am convinced one of those three brothers is the father of my 2nd great grandmother. The only problem is I'm not sure how I can prove which brother is the father. When I entered their parents names and details in my tree, they matched with my DNA relatives. How can I prove which brother is the father? Any advice would be great. Thank you
My grandfather was left by his mother when I believe he was 3. His father raised him till he was 8 and then placed him and his siblings in a catholic orphanage somewhere in the Pittsburg area. I found my great grandfather but I’m struggling to find my biological great grandmother. I don’t believe my great grandparents were ever officially married but I’m still not entirely sure. My grandfather is alive but struggles talking about his past due to the trauma. I’m really interested in finding my bio great grandmother. If you have any tips let me know! And thank you! Such an interesting video!
Can we try and drop the term 'bastard' (we basically have), and illegitimate while referring to people not born to married couples? The children are not illegitmate, and I do not understand using that term. Can we not move beyond those terms? Do we not think about the trauma and psychological damage to children by the use of that term? And, the lies told by adoptive parents to adoptees because we label children as illegitimate? What about that stigma? Screw old backwards laws that stigmatize children for nothing they did.
When referring to living persons, sure. Why not? When referring to how people were referred to in the past to direct folks in how to do genealogy research, we have to be historically accurate and avoid presentism.
For more on: What's Wrong About Presentism in Family History Books ruclips.net/video/nymcr6ng0F0/видео.html
We can not go back in time to documentations that recorded a child was ilegítimo
or government entities that created bastardy bonds. Those are what they are called. Thus, to direct individuals in how to research these records, we have to use the relevant terminology.
I did my best to cover the use of the sensitive nature of this term in the video. Did you miss that portion?
In my research I've found some German records have the word "unehelich" written below the child's name. The mother's name is written first and the mother's father's is mentioned below her. I've found the fathers of the child is mentioned only if they later get married, and that marriage date is referenced. In some records in Lithuania these childrens' records are written upside-down in the church books compared to the rest and both parents are mentioned if they are known. This is sometimes done in German records as well.
Wow. I'm so glad I kept digging through the comments to find this one. You taught me something new.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Happy to have helped 😀
Ginny Churning
What if Grandfather's mother was Chinese? My father was born out of wedlock. My Grandmother ran off with the man who was the father of her child and she was retrieved and not allow to be with the man who was the father of her child. If she had picked a man who was not biracial, half American, and half Chinese, she probably would've been allowed to marry and have her child with him. The stigma of having an illegitimate interracial child in 1930 wasn't the same as it is today. How common was were these interracial relationships in the first half 1900s and which is the best DNA test for someone who is possible of Chinese descent?
Interracial relationships were more common than people realize but there is no firm percentage that I can offer. As genealogists, we always have to be open to this possibility.
The participation of individuals with Chinese heritage is rather small. Several Asian countries heavily restrict access to DNA testing. Additionally, some citizens of Asian countries are losing their class status when research reveals that they descend from a lower class. This puts more hesitancy on participation.
All that to say, the best test is the database that your relatives might be in. Since you won't know which one that is, we recommend that you test with Ancestry and 23andMe. Then transfer your DNA to MyHeritage, Family Tree DNA, and GedMatch. That way you're only paying for two tests, and two reduced priced transfer fees. Don't bother with LivingDNA since you're searching for Chinese heritage and they focus on Living DNA.
You bring up something I have wondered, how much of the population are we actually seeing in the older censuses, say previous to 1850? Are the illegitimate children, orphans, the mentally ill, the "bums" all counted or are they invisible? Does it depend on which state, or if they were home that day when the enumerator was there? A major beef I have with genealogy is that there are so many blind alleys like this. I have a 4th great grandmother that I have turned the world upside down to find... now you have me thinking this angle. Where do I find a genetic genealogist? Enid Adams, a professional genealogist and in-law a couple generations ago searched for this woman for 50 years(on and off) and never found out who she was. She did trips to the Delaware Archives, etc etc. The research she did was incredible, actually. But this woman remained a secret to her. When DNA came out I thought ALRIGHT! Then I learned that 4th generation requires a lot of testers(which I have) then the latest I learned I need some older people descendants with 3rd generation connection and I have only found 1 and she is not healthy and may not be alive.
To your question " Are the illegitimate children, orphans, the mentally ill, the "bums" all counted or are they invisible? "
It depends. Sometimes the children are in locations and home and hiding under names we don't recognize. Many of the "deaf, dumb, and blind" were recorded and many sanitoriums listed their patients (along with jails and their inmates in post 1850 census records. Prior to 1840, you're only going to find the heads of households or institutions, so it's very difficult to find people in those records.
As to how to find professional genealogists, check out the directory here www.apgen.org/cpages/home. You'll want to search for a genetic genealogist and someone familiar with Delaware research. (You might have to find two different people to tackle your question more in-depth).
If you don't want to vet those professionals, then Legacy Tree Genealogists has a team that could develop a project for you to tackle the record and the DNA efforts in one item. www.legacytree.com/fhfanatics
Good luck
I have wheedled down an illegitimate father to one of 3 brothers: none of whom had legitimate descendants! An address (unfortunately a death certificate) suggests the 'couple' were living in the same house though the possible father was married to the sister. The Police Gazette suggests the other 2 who were commercial travellers, were working in the cotton industry in the same town in the year in question. Genetic distance rules out the 4th brother whose descendants tested on Ancestry. Y chromosome/surname and area confirm the Paternal Line. Unfortunately DNA doesn't help to differentiate the brothers.
I am adopted and I know who my mother is but my birth certificate says father unknown. How do I go about finding that information?
We have a video series that you'll want to check out. ruclips.net/p/PLcVx-GSCjcdk1GsAs9NfLWKvACcjE3Afg
Any advice if your ancestors were the first to settle parts of the county where the dating pool was small and playing musical chairs with other married partners was common? How about an unknown father being hidden under a different name?
Would this help in trying to identify a DNA match, that doesn't seem to match at all?
I have someone who is a DNA match and is mixed in between a 1st cousin 1x removed and a half 1st cousin 1x removed but I can't find a common ancestor, and I've gone back 5 generations on her tree using a "floating tree" for hints, but nothing seems to match anyone on my tree. She won't answer me.
The methodology works on many projects. Take a test, do descendancy research, research the expanded community (men in the woman's life). For that close of a cousin, chances are the lack of response could be that the DNA tester doesn't know an answer to your question, or has discovered some information they weren't expecting.
To attempt to isolate your relationship to this person, plug in your shared cMs in this chart dnapainter.com/tools/sharedcmv4.
Then look at where the common ancestor could appear on their chart and yours and look for people who might be in the same town at the same time. This is sort of what we did to figure out who my biological great-grandfather was.
My great grandfather. My grandfather dad he knew and his mom but they would not tell us his name we know his ethnicity and what city and his businesses but that's it I need help any ideas how ty
Do you know of any video's that tell how to figure out incest? I suspect my paternal maternal great grandparents were half siblings. It's a long story but in short I am unable to track down four set's of great grandparents on my paternal line. I am able to track down three but not the set of great grandparents for my paternal Grandmother's birth father.
French Canadian records from Catholic church are outstanding for research. They also state legitimacy.
Awesome. Thanks for pointing that out. I have mentioned Catholic records before on this channel. They aren't French Canadian but I still love Catholic records. ruclips.net/video/nQfk1SHaq7U/видео.html
Watching this I am thinking of something I find a bit funny (LOL funny).
I am youngest of 5 siblings...
My father had 2 older sisters and 6 brothers (1 of them older) that lived to become grown ups.
His father, my grandfather had 2 older sisters - he was youngest of 3 siblings. 1 of his sisters had 1 son who is alive - he has no children, my grandfather´s other sister was childless.
And now to what I find so funny... my grandfather has 220 descendants who are alive today...
Writing about my great grandfather, the father of my father was an only son, not yet 5 years old when his father died.
The father of my father´s father had in total 16 half-siblings and no full siblings. His parents were not married - never did marry, partly because his father was already married - He drowned 49 years old. He has 221 descendants alive today.
My Great-great-grandfather had 1 child before he married, and 10 children with his wife... my grandfather was a "by-blow" who he and his wife raised with the children they had together - at least for the first 15 years or so... in the census that year his oldest child lived at his house too. Well, out of his 259 descendants, 221 are alive today.
His father had only 1 child... but out of total 260 descendants, 221 are alive today. See the trend?
Now his father had 4 children and 3.564 descendants total... 3.052 alive today... I am not able to see how many of the 2.831 are descendant from each of his other 3 children.
But all the descendants of my great-great-great grandfather only existing because his son, at 37 year of age and father of 8, was unfaithful to his wife and got a (then) 19 year old girl pregnant... My great grandfather was only 3 days older than one of his (legitimate) half-brothers.
Wow. I'm not sure how to respond other than thank you for sharing your family history with me. Much appreciated.
Does this help when you have researched generations based on say what your grandparents told you only to find their birth records BOTH missing fathers and one listing a mother who was a younger sister to the person you were raised knowing as your great-grandfather? To make things difficult, the "known" great-grandparents only had one child. The "discovered" mother married 5 years later, then that union only had one child. Please help!
Wow this sounds like you're uncovering some hidden family truths - I believe this video will be very helpful if I'm understanding you correctly.
If I may ask: do I have the following correct?
1. Your grandparents told vague stories about their own parents but when you started searching records
a. neither birth listing nor any records have a father's name at all and
b. the mother's name on one birth record is filled out, but that's not who you were told about, it's the little sister?
(I.e. Who you thought was your great grand aunt?)
..do I have that right?
@@borreliaetc you're pretty dead on. Both paternal grandparents have missing fathers, well grandfather only has a first name listed but looks like he was registered after who I was told was the father killed in WWI. My grandparents marriage certificate has who I raised knowing as my great-grandparents. Strange that when I started this as a teen in the 80s, my grandmother gave me names and dates of all 4 of her grandparents as well as my grandfathers. It was a chore finding my grandmothers 1912 birth certificate because of this discrepancy. Piecing dates and places together has me chasing my tail added to the fact they were both intertwined, not by blood though. Each mother was a family of 10-12. My grandfathers mothers brother married my grandmothers mothers sister. Confused? Lol not sure how to present that lol
I hope this video provides you some strategies to consider while tackling your specific research question. In my own complex research, I've found that learning methodology from a variety of different persons has helped numerous strategies to try. A combination from the collective knowledge of the educators helped me chip away at my research question. I hope I will give you some ideas, even if not the complete process you seek.
Way to go Anna Hart for puzzling out the situation in a list form!!!
This is what I want to know! My 5th great grandparent’s name is ambiguous, so we don’t know if they’re male or female (Francis/Frances), but we’re leaning towards my 4th great grandfather being illegitimate.
5th great-grandparent can be challenging from genetic genealogy perspectives using autosomal DNA. You have a good portion of genealogical cousins who you do not share DNA with. Additionally, as you're finding in records, you can have much confusion.
Whenever I struggle, I ensure I have fully researched the generations leading up to the 4th and 5th great-grandparents for every last clue that direct ancestors and their close family (aunts, uncles, siblings, cousins, etc) have to offer.
Then, I begin to make possibility charts. Who could be available to be a father? With any luck, you inherited enough DNA from the 5th great-grandparent to match others with that same amount of DNA.
Sadly, you're researching on the boundary of records and genetics. It's not guaranteed to be possible to figure out
Mine is from England
My dad, fortunately, is still alive. He has agreed to take the 23andme test. We’re hoping that the Y haplogroup will point us in the right direction.
My Dad's father was unknown. It was whispered that one man was his father and his mother told him the identity of his father was none of his business! He was home born and the birth certificate he had said father unknown. My mother, not knowing this (& being a little naive) sent off for his birth certificate and low and behold it had the name of a man who died shortly before his birth.
My grandmother fingered a dead man probably to get the heat off of her from her elderly parents.
DNA (Y & autosomal) proved that he was the son of the whispered man (and shared the middle name of the grandfather!).
DNA is the ONLY proof that any of us are who we believe we are... 😉
Thanks so much for sharing this story Cheri. It's awesome that you lucked out with the birth certificate providing the name! IF only all would have such luck.
Excellent broadcast! I do have an illegitimate family member I am researching, I know there was a Paternity suit which resulted in the bio dad paying a large sum of money (HE DID IT!). Is there any way to find information about paternity suits in the early 1900s?
My first recommendation is to check for newspapers in the area where the suit likely occurred. If the sum was rather large, it might also have made the news in other parts of the country because that falls into the 'noteworthy' category, and many papers will grab news from other locations to print.
Fingers crossed. Because if you do find any mention of the case during filing, hearings, and judgment, you will now have a date to help guide you in courthouse research. You will also learn the specific courthouse and, if you're really lucky, the court case number.
With that information, then I would reach out to the courthouse in the county (or similar, depending on where in the world this took place) the suit was filed and adjudicated. Depending on the laws of that court, you might be able to access the case file.
Give that a try, and let me know how it goes.
I would appreciate any ones help. For 5 years I have been in search of my Paternal Grandfathers identity. My Dad (now deceased at 93) always believed his father was not his biological father. From a London tailoring family, the second of four and his elder sister having another father, he believed that when his mother was reluctant to give him his birth cert, it wasnt just because, his parents werent married, it was because his father wasnt on the certificate.
Now Dad took a DNA test. It proves his father was Jewish. Not unusual in the tailoring community. The nearest matches we have received are 2nd/ 3rd cousins Mainly now in the USA, (due to traveling away from Europe). I have traced back the trees of may be 20 or so close hits,. listed surnames, places etc. They are Ukraine/Polish in origin However, I fail to isolate Great Grand parents to trace Grand Dad. Any ideas.
It’s kind of strange finding a cousin who that his mother was an only child. You feel like you are diving up a big family scandal.
And yet, that's the reality of the situation. Genealogy reveals many truths others tried to keep hidden. The question is, can we do this with compassion?
Thats great for one or two generations, but past generations are hard to find for illegitimate childs. My grandfather never married my grandmother, but had 9 recognized children, plus 13 other children with two women. All have been recorded.
Also records might be tricky.
The limiting factor in this process wouldn't necessarily be one or two generations back. The limiting factor is actually the practices within various countries to document individuals. Oral history societies or societies that have destroyed or never kept records of individuals that genealogists use will make it harder for researchers to document their legitimate and illegitimate ancestors.
I will condense this story down a little. I started about seven years ago searching for my adopted daughter in laws family. The adopting family refused to help or share documents. She DNA tested but did not find anyone above 4th cousin. I finally figured out she needed to request her immigration records from USCIS. She sent all the Japanese documents to a 4th cousin in Japan. The cousin applied through the city where the birth record was filed. The 4th cousin said parts of the family registry was removed. The daughter in law was listed as third daughter. So she requested more information. Finally daughter in law received and email from the cousin on who and where her family was. The father was still a mystery. I eventually flew to Japan and with help of another 4th cousin we tracked down the mother. At first we tried to track down the sisters but no one knew them or where they were. We stopped at a local restaurant for lunch and the cousin was telling me a story about old people know everyone. He asked the old lady working in the restaurant if she knew the family, she said she knew them and where they lived. Before the daughter in law was able to prepare to make the trip Corona put an end to her trip.
Dang! I hate how this story is now stuck. But man! What a journey. SO close. I hope things will change soon enough to take the story further.
Two references to the Bastardy Act of 1733:
The Diary of a Country Parson:
1924
These so-called compulsory marriages, though not compulsory by law, were an inevitable effect of the law as it stood, specially of the Bastardy Act of 1733 (6 George II, c. 31). For under that Act a woman had only, upon oath before a justice, to charge any person with having gotten her with child to enable the said justice, on application of the overseers of the poor, to apprehend and imprison the man charged, unless he gave security to indemnify the parish. By another clause of the Act the marriage of the woman caused the release of the man from penalty. Hence, in numerous cases, if the man could not indemnify the parish, he preferred wedlock to imprisonment.
The Rural World 1780-1850: Social Change in the English Countryside
1981
The Bastardy Act of 1733 provided one way out of the dilemma. Under this Act a pregnant woman had only to charge a man on oath before a magistrate with having got her with child to enable the magistrate ‘to apprehend and imprison the man’, unless he gave security to indemnify the parish from all expense. However, another clause of the Act authorized his release from penalty if he would agree to marry her. This meant that a pregnant unmarried woman would often be encouraged by parish officers to name as the putative father a man from a neighbouring village. Arrangements would then be put in hand to secure a marriage and, with it, the woman’s settlement in her husband’s community. Parson Woodforde officiated at one such forced marriage in Norfolk in January 1787:
Wow! Thanks for these awesome insights. I love learning from others.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Your welcome. Found both books on the internet archive. Great source for older books with state and county history and biography, often written at a time when ancestors were still living. Unfortunately, I have been unable to get past a great-great grandfather with only a last name and great-great grandmother with a first name spelled five different ways on various records, none of them recording a marriage between these two. They had a child, my great grandmother, with a birth certificate listing only the father's last name in 1867. By 1880, the child was listed as the step daughter of the mother who had married another man in 1872. The child's death certificate lists the father's first name, but provides little else. Sorry about the lack of specifics, I'm not at present looking for other people's assistance in my research, just an explanation of how I got here.
😢 i feel like it hopeless 😔 ill never find harvey dad all i know his mom mary and his step dad Henry his last name is cope but idk i believe its his mom last name but so unsure
How can I get German records but I am born in UK. They have sent me so many forms - - Im the Grand daughter rightly. And have hardly any knowledge of their heritage
I'm not entirely sure I understand your question. I'm not sure who sent you so many forms. In my experience, many German church records are accessible through hired professionals since the church leaders do not have the time or energy to dig in the archives. However, more and more German records are available online. Check out the various resources by looking at this website. www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Germany_Genealogy
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics thank you. I think I went to the Bunderliege archive ( sorry about the spelling)
could you look into Swiss records? Are they locked down? Tried to do a quick tree for neighbor and can't find anything on ancestry. Thanks
I'm not sure what you mean by Swiss Records being locked own. Whenever I'm uncertain about records, I visit the FamilySearch Wiki for insights. Check out this page. www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Switzerland_Genealogy
Wouldn’t it be helpful to do a Leeds chart or sort matches before testing descendants of the hear say ancestor?
Great question. I would do a Leeds Chart to isolate the DNA matches for t your grandparent lines. Then, target the one, if you find it, for the ancestor that has the illegitimate child. From there, you can then work on the DNA matches.
You could also test out Ancestry ThruLines and Theories of Family Relativity by inserting a possible father into your family tree to see what results might turn up. Theories of Family Relativity only update a few times a year. ThruLines update within 24 -48 hours of you making a change.
Hi, Just as an FYI, there are no longer legally 'illigetimate children" . They're children born out of wedlock.
Since genealogy is a branch of history and the historical records frequently use the term "illegitimate" or "bastard", we'll continue to use these terms.
my Fathers Birth certificate states " illegitimate". I did a DNA and so did my nephew. I found a 4th cousin who is related to the man who I thought was my Grandfather and who was married to my Grandmother 4 years after my Father was born. But I cant find any closer DNA links can I assume that I have found my Grandfather. many of the closer relatives either say we are not a match or haven't done a DNA.
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You can't assume, but you can suspect. You would need to do descendancy research on the common ancestor with the 4th cousin. You don't share DNA with all descendants of the common ancestor, but you might be related to that 4th cousin in a different way. So you're trying to rule out all theories by doing various testing.
I have an ancestor who had a mother who was white and he was colored. We don't know who his father is. How do I go about this during a time when slavery was taking place when he was born in 1829 in Williamson County, TN
You have a very difficult challenge. First, learn about how to research African American Genealogy. Here's a great video. Research African American Ancestors on Ancestry | Guest - Crista Cowan ruclips.net/video/gVLTPQ-gL9g/видео.html
Then, you'll have to take DNA tests and build a genetic family tree. Test with Ancestry and 23andMe and transfer your results into GEDmatch, MyHeritage, and FamilyTreeDNA. You never know where your genetic relatives will be. With patience and a little bit of lucky, you might push your ancestry back one or more generations. Good luck.
What timezone will this be? 11:00 Central? Eastern?
RUclips usually tells you what time the video will be live in your own timezone. It says 9a for me and I'm Pacific time.
@@borreliaetc That's good to know. Thanks.
My pleasure, hope to see you there!
Anna.. thank you so much for helping folks in the comments. You're a super star.
Really!/!? Way Cool. My Great-Grandfather George Geiszler worked there and so did my Grandmother's biological grandmother Agnes Anderson.
Great video! But, I hope that your channel/company will recognize that for many genealogical researchers DNA testing is never going to happen. It would be very helpful if your video topics took that into consideration when producing and publishing your videos. Most researchers that I know are older people who really are not equipped to learn how to use DNA results and tracking. Personally, I have listened to several lecture videos about using DNA results, and I do realize that it is no simple thing to just plug in and go. There are other reasons that people are not interested in testing their DNA, for a myriad of reasons. I recognize that there could be a lot of avenues of information that might be discovered by DNA testing. Then, again maybe not.
I just ask that instructional videos recognize that using DNA testing is not an option in at least half of the active genealogists that might be watching your videos. If a video is about a research technique that entails DNA testing, please indicate that in the title. Otherwise, I really enjoy your videos. I appreciate the manner in which you spoke of illegitimacy in various eras. I am researching a Canadian woman that had been brought over as part of the British Home Children projects. Only a few of her grandchildren are still alive, and no one had known about this. I made the discovery when told a couple of things Matilda had said about her childhood. Matilda was born in Hampshire England in 1886 and shipped to Canada May 31, 1891 as an indentured servant. Over 100,000 children were sent to Canada as indentured servants between 1870 and 1930. They came from workhouses and sent to be farm labor mostly. Few were adopted. Some died. Anyway, thank you.
I appreciate your feedback.
I invite you to watch more videos where I am the educator, not my husband. Folks who have watched my videos have come to know that I'm the Debbie Downer of DNA. It doesn't work that well for me for various reasons (Some of which I mentioned in this video ruclips.net/video/uF9pnHHJDBA/видео.html ).
Thus, nearly all of my videos discuss genealogical records and methodology, which people of any age can access. I will mention that DNA is a tool, but not the only tool... like I did in this video.
Meanwhile, my husband is the DNA Guy on this channel. If you see green background thumbnails or a man in the thumbnail, you'll probably want to not watch those. They are DNA related.
Since genealogy research has many tools, we strive to offer enough content for where people are in their process and what they're ready to learn. Over 1/2 of the 600 videos on our channel do not have anything to do with DNA. I hope you'll watch more of those.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Thank you. I will look for your videos. Your son has been making some pretty good videos as well! He's quite a charming young fellow. You must be very proud of him.
Don't forget that it was not uncommon for some couples to not marry, yet still have children.
Very true. I thought I covered that in a different video. Was it this one? ruclips.net/video/M8lm9HOHwZY/видео.html
In any case, thanks for the reminder. Repetition is the first law of learning.
This was VERY common in Scotland - especially in the highlands where priests could not always get to the parish to marry the couples. I have one ancestress who was baptised at age 14, but her parents were never married. This is in the Scottish highlands. As far as I can tell there is no record of anyone in Scotland shaming her for being born out of wedlock, but as soon as she emigrated out of the UK, the English colonists in the new country were very scathing towards her mother calling her a "loose woman". I was horrified!!!
The English had a lot more hangups about children being born outside of marriage than the Scots did!! And yet those same english people also had bastards as well. Which makes the English people very HYPOCRITICAL indeed.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics No problem. Yes, I think it was this one, plus I've been researching a Scottish ancestor, who was born in St. Vigeans, Arbroath, Angus (Forfarshire), Scotland. I didn't see any marriage records for her, but she did give birth to several children and gave them Laird as a surname. One of those children was my second great-grandfather, Wallace Ritchie Laird.
The key word in the Swedish records is okänd, literally "unknown."
Thanks! I love learning new things.
I have many ancestors that BC says illegitimate.
That's not uncommon. I hope you're able to find the fathers.
Might want to check that video image for spelling.... :)
Oops. I'll do that.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics love your guys' vids!! Thanks!
Awww. I'm blushing
I have not found my Chandler NPE (at Big Y Group 7A Chandler Y-chromosome DNA Project) BUT through Ancestry DNA matches I am at a pretty high percent sure of when and where the NPE was NOT. That the NPE was either my great-great-great grandfather or some time before but that it was not after that. FTDNA matches did not help. Also a research trip to the old family stomping grounds (Guntersville, AL) were helpful in narrowing things down as well. It also helps that on both sides (maternal and paternal) I have matches at Ancestry DNA of close family, first and second cousins and also others whose family trees match a number of my known researched ancestors. Some I'm not so sure and am doing research myself -- like JONES in Jones Chapel, Cullman Co, AL. Presumptions were made by others based on circumstantial evidence (especially census) so I need to be more certain. Just because I match their DNA does not mean their research is accurate. My great-great grandmother was Elizabeth P. (Jones) Young! Talk about a needle in a haystack! ;-) Lucky she filed for the pension of the service of my great-great grandfather, John Wesley Young (Alabama 1st Cavalry, Union died of disease during the war) and gave her marriage details (Winston County, AL -- officially all lost before 1891) which I otherwise would not have. Fold3 helped there.
Wow... I like how you're being methodological and trying to pair DNA matches with records. Keep up the good work and searching for you needles.
I have an incredible special story. One of the greatest desires of my life is to present and verify my research findings with you as professional researchers. I will briefly describe my story. I am Hungarian and one of my grandfathers was officially born an illegal child. After a year of investigation, it turned out that a colonial American Wheelwright was my great-grandfather.
Once in a lifetime, I would really like to share and comment on this research result with you. It would also provide you with a lot of new lessons as experienced researchers.
Have you added your information to the FamilySearch family tree?
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Actually, I haven’t written this story there yet because no one has cared yet. He is my great -great-grandfather who was born in Hungary as an illegal child, and the clues lead to Brooklyn 4th ward.
LHCR-D9B
The story of this whole investigation of mine is very complex, I have collected a lot of data over the years and there are incredible shocking events in this story as well.
When I say amazing, it’s seriously amazing
Just an example.
My great-grandfather Dezső Bajnóczy had a secret son that no one in Hungary knew about except his mother and father. He was also called Dezső Bajnóczy and he was the 4th Ward of Brooklyn. Right where the Wheelwright family lived.
And the mother of this hidden child was called Ilona Bajnóczy, just like my great-grandmother. But genetically, we have nothing to do with that Ilona Bajnóczy. But it is a very rough coincidence.
Need strategies for possibly finding father of a child resulting from prostitution.
make sure you test the furthest back generations first
Yep. That's a great point. Thank you.
Sorry, but this is a serious subject and I feel like you did allot of laughing.
Thank you for watching. I respect your opinion. I will take your feedback into consideration.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Don’t give it a second thought. I was being a grumpy old lady right then. I actually found my dad’s real father via my brother doing the big Y 700. About the same time we got those shocking results we began to get lots of autosomal matches, 2 at 1st cousin level! But they all shared a common male ancestor with a different surname than our Y matches, and we had about 60 Y matches!!!! I solved it last month using both kinds of records and the tree of both kinds of matches. It turned out my dad’s real father was surnamed Phillips. But his Phillips great grandfather born in about 1818 was also either illegitimate or changed his name on purpose. One of their males Y tested and matched my brother and has all the same Y matches. The whole direct male line ls actually Sutherland! We know this because a total stranger Y tested that was my brothers super duper close big Y 700 match. Super rare and super lucky! Also, we have distant autosomal matches that are ancestors of that same exactly family. Our matches earliest know male (at the time he tested) is the brother of the two Sutherland women we had distant autosomal ancestor matches with. In fact, since that time, I found 2 more that lead back to the same family. But I have been working on this for 2 and a half years. It was a rough an emotional road. But the good news is that it turned out our men are direct male line descendants of the progenitor of the Sutherland clan. My brother was even contacted by a historical project being done in Scotland at the time about the Declaration of Arbroath and Y DNA of the descendants of the signers. It was stunning to learn all of this. There are allot of shocked families involved in this!……8-). It just takes the right person to take the right DNA test and then work hard but continue to be patient. We share a 3x great grand father with our Big Y DNA match. I also need to learn that Kentucky was once part of the Virginia Territory. You get allot of history lessons when you work on these kinds of situations……8-).
I'm so glad we could clear the air. Thanks for sharing your story with me as well.
BTW.. YT hides follow-up comments. That's why I wasn't able to respond right away. Next time, start a new thread so I will be notified.
I don't get offended easily but I have to say this video definitely did. Those of us that are "illegitimate" already know we are so to be referred to as just that on RUclips or a genealogical database now or long after being dead legit will not be something I want anything to do with.
I feel disquieted that you took offense when I intended none and explained why the terms were used. I hope you can build your family tree regardless.
23andme is a joke for DNA. More of a Google questionnaire site.
I think you're misinterpreting the goal of 23andMe. It was initially a health website and it has later added a few genealogy tools.
@@FamilyHistoryFanatics Oh o.k.
‘“Illegitimate Children”? Really? SMH. 😔
What’s the problem? That’s what they are.
From the show notes: "** Be advised, the terms bastard born and illegitimate are used in this genealogical sense of the word."
In more modern terms, we would likely use born out of wedlock.
@@rettawhinnery There used to be bastardy lists.
Illigitamate parents of innocent children.
I LOVE my audience... Retta you get the gold star for reading the description. I knew this battle was going to wage, but as I studied methodology and history, I opted for the genealogical definition of the term.. which will be explained in the video as well.
If you were a better Teacher you would recognize that the phrase " Illegitimate Children" is offensive.
Am I to understand that you would prefer that I use terminology that appeals to modern sensitivities rather than answers the specific questions my students ask or that is historically accurate?
As a teacher, I looked to one of the greatest teachers for guidance. A quote attributed to Confusious began, ""He who takes offense when none is intended.."
A good teacher uses the terms that the students will have to search for to find the answers, so Devon used the correct genealogical terms. Some states, I have learned, have Bastardy Rolls that can be researched. If the teacher did not use terms that the students must look for in records from courts and churches, the students would not be able to do the research.
I do not think referring to Illegitimate Children as bastard-born is helpful.
My father was illegitimate and the word bastard was extremely hurtful growing up, but as an English teacher he would be the first to tell you that illegitimate is literally the definition of a bastard. I think you're getting caught up in the connotation of the word...
We have to use the genealogically correct terms we discover on historical documents. We can change the terminology in our family history projects, but we have to be aware of what was used in the past so we understand the records we review.
The genealogical terms are very helpful in research.