The point every one seems to miss is the gun was supposed to be loaded because the bullet tips wouldbe clearly visible. It would not be possible on a visual inspection of the loaded gun to tell if the dummy rounds were real and for the shot he had to shoot at the camera my guess is he was in shock and incapable of knowing if he pulled the trigger. That means for example he could easily pass a lie detector test.
All you guys nailed it, and it's exactly everyone's point about Baldwins action during this whole issue. He didn't use a single one of his 11 brain cells. I'm sure he's since lost 6 or 8 of those after seeing his melt downs. All "joking" aside cause its not really funny....Alec Baldwin needs to be put away this guy is an actual menace to society, He's attacked people before. He's been abusive before I mean this goes back to Kim Basinger telling us he was abusive and then listening to his phone call to his kid abusing her over the phone. The man needs to be put away.
@@womble321 If you need dummies with bullet tips because you're filming from the front, then they shouldn't have unused primers, so you can see they're dummies from the rear by looking through the loading gate.
The modern transfer bar safety is the best method to make a revolver safe, but it still requires the safety and awareness of the operator 100% to avoid accidental discharge.
My personal favorite is the ruger disconnect. Basically, the hammer doesnt connect to the firing pin, and instead, they have the hammer strike a plate, which then strikes the pin. this plate will retract into the gun when the trigger is not depressed and also when the hammer is moved slowly, so that the only point when the hammer is actually in contact with the firing pin is when firing
ive tried to get one of these to fire by striking the hammer after the whole baldwin thing occurred. it took 7 solid hits with a 24oz brass sledge but it eventually broke the safety ledge and could fire when hit from the rear.
The biggest danger of the SAA is having the hammer down on a live round and not even on the 'safety' notch. In this configuration it doesn't take a lot of impact to fire. Safest carry is of course to only load 5 with hammer down on the empty chamber. Another safety system I've seen uses a cylinder pin with two notches so when you want the gun safe you can push the pin deeper to the second notch which lets the pin protrude out of the back of the gun and prevent the hammer from being able to fully drop forward. Of course the best and safest system would be the Ruger 'transfer bar' type which makes the gun almost foolproof...but of course people have shot themselves and others with them too....so fools continue to evolve and become able to defeat even the best safety systems.
Not all are made to such high standards, plenty of stories (with court cases) of SAA type revolvers going off when dropped thanks to the trigger tip snapping. It’s not every gun, but when it does happen results can be catastrophic, so empty chamber under the hammer for the SAA family. Given some of the things the armorer said (and other incidents on set) I’m not sure they knew to use a safety notch.
Thousands possibly millions of shots have been fired from S.A.A.s in the last one hundred years in Westerns and I am sure up until probably the eighties safety was not a major concern, negligent discharges did not happen because the actors and crew involved knew their guns and what was good practice and what wasn't. The failures here were human not equipment, had any one of the three people who handled this firearm before the incident done what they were supposed to this would not have happened.
Baldwin has made westerns for forty plus years, this is the single most common gun for said movies, he was either incredibly arrogant, or simply stupid. Most of those "thousands of shots" were by men or women who dropped one cartridge, skip one, load four more, lower the hammer on an empty chamber. From that, one knows cocking the trigger makes it live. When a fool kills someone by stupidity, it's best called murder. I've been hit with an accidental discharge, had a couple of my own, over fifty years working on guns, each was an issue of unfamiliarity, and only proper handling meant no one was hurt, just my handmade oak tool chest, with some bird shot embedded, to keep me honest. Johnny Cash sang a song of a boy who took a rifle for practice, a century ago, and killed a man, "practice my aim". The court found the correct verdict, being a boy doesn't obviate responsibility. I've got an Uberti SAA with a five and a half inch barrel, and an additional safety, the center pin can block the hammer fall, absolutely. In my own experience, adding the bells and whistles only makes one think "it is safe", I hate the Ruger, we fix them safer than when we built them originally, transfer bar only works with accidents of dropping, almost every accidental discharge is losing sight of the chamber status, and pulling a trigger with a live round. Two decades in the Corps, a "discharge barrel" at every armory, every range, every turnaround point, you unload a weapon into the barrel of sand, and despite this, it was never a surprise to hear a round fired, while cleaning one's own, in the back. Never the less, every head swivelled.
Actually .... the 5 and 1 empty "cowboy load" came about because of actor incompetence with the firearms. Outside of actors people carrier them with 6 on the safety notch with no issue. There is only one report of a break of the load notch in army trials due to a flaw in manufacturing. The safety notch prevented the discharge.
I received my ARMAX journal and read Ashley Hlebinsky’s paper first. It, and the rest of the journal’s content is great. Thanks for letting us know about it and for this video. Someday I hope there’s an electronic version of ARMAX with animations by Bruno :)
Another interesting approach would be to put a safety on it like they do on the "Heritage Rough Rider" where when you flip the safety switch up and a piece of metal inside the main frame blocks the mid section of hammer from falling forward. Great approach for the Colt Single Action if you wanted to carry 6 rounds instead of 5. That way when your ready to fire just cock the hammer back,😁 flip off the safety switch and your ready to rock n roll!!!! :)😁
That would only be a "great approach" if you didn't give a rat's ass about historical accuracy, aesthetics, functionality, etc. That safety on the Heritage is a definte deal killer. Transfer bars are a much superior system if you really need a safety.
When I was introduced to this revolver, I was shown, "drop a round in, skip a round, four more, hammer back, down on an empty chamber. That was always the number one means of safe, can't fail, and remains the best. I've had a number, carried regularly, my current Uberti, SAA, 5 and half inch barrel, also has a cylinder pin with a notch allowing the pin to hold the hammer away from anything short of a sledgehammer blow. The real issue is never "gun safety", it's the guy behind the trigger. This is actually one of the safest revolvers to ever carry, and quite effective, more so than a 1911, my favorite pistol. Semper Fidelis, John McClain
If it was dropped with the muzzle pointing up, upon first impact of the ground on the handle the trigger it could slip off the "first notch" due to inertia of the hammer, and inertia on the trigger prevents the sear slipping back into the notch. That shouldn't cause a discharge falling that short distance but now the firing pin is resting on a primer, if the gun bounced off the ground and rolls to then land on the hammer then the ground acts like the hammer and the actual hammer just acts as a firing pin. So what you really need is for a way to prevent inertia allowing the trigger to slip out of the first notch. I think the way to achieve that is with a much lower mass trigger and a greater force on the return spring for the trigger so even if the hammer is drawn back a bit by inertia, the trigger will fall back into the notch.
I've wondered for a long time why Colt never put extra cylinder notches on the 1873 cylinder like the Manhattan firearms company did their percussion revolvers.
You'd have to make the cylinder and circle the chambers fall on larger in diameter to give space for the pin to drop between rims and have enough chamber wall thickness to make putting shallow a hole there feasible. As it is on a .45 SAA the rims all but touch and there is little metal between chambers.
@@Broken_Yugo Yes, but the notches that _are_ on the cylinder already lie offset to avoid the thinnest part of the cylinder. Any notch between the chambers will be, in fact, ground to the same thickness but on the other side of the chamber.
there are some german weihrauch saa style revolvers with a transfer bar, rugers clones which also have other safety features with their loading gate etc
You need to add the new Uberti retracting firing pin mechanism to your list. Without the trigger held to the rear the firing pin retracts into the hammer far enough that it can't contact the primer (supposedly).
Heritage Arms has the roll over manual safety with a cut out to allow the hammer all the way to the firing pin in fire mode and an impact resistant bar to keep the hammer back in safe
I have recently acquired a Cimarron Pisolero with the safety notch you illustrated. Seems to me that that first click safety notch would be enough for normal carry.
The Pietta Colt SAA repros fairly often have hair triggers in my experience compared to the Ubertis (I have shot 3 or 4 of them that a friend of mine owns split across the brands). Even the lightest touch on the trigger when manipulating the hammer can cause it to drop. Do not think the Piettas have any extra safety features in them but it might just have been the age of the Pietta SAAs that my friend owns. Is there any comprehensive information on how the different reproductions of the SAA are set up with the safety mechanisms?
Great demonstration. Thank you. Isn't the safety of the firearm placed directly on the arms master on set? The prop handler? This has always been my understanding.
My A.Uberti reproduction 1873 SAA has two notches in the arbor the first notch let's the hammer fall and the second notch acts as a hammer stop by letting the arbor hold the hammer far enough away from the primers to prevent discharge
Thanks for the clarification. I was only familiar with the hammer fixed firing pin and the transfer bar safety system. Do we know what system was in place on THE SUBJECT GUN?
I’ve read reports it was a Pietta but an old one made in the 60s I can only speculate the older Italian guns where probably original copies without thought to additional safeties. So anyone with one from that era hopefully chimes in.
@@dustyak79 even the more recently imported ones are allowed to be imported the old style way, the first notch is considered a safety for import regulations
@@HircineDaWolf They can be imported but say certain states might require other safety devices. I don’t know that for a fact but it would make sense the manufacturers would include some for sales in those states. Hell California requires Cancer warnings labels on everything I see it when I order Truck parts here in Missouri.
@@CitizenSmith50 If he purchased a new one chances are something could be different as my comment above the gun could of been made in the 60s and Pietta has a couple different safety styles in new guns even today .
Tell you what I do, but will not claim it is safe, but seems to be pretty effective. 1, load all of the cylinders. 2.Hold the gun in a position that will allow you to turn the cylinder with the hand you are holding the gun with. 3. With the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, cock the hammer back. Keep a firm grip in the hammer spur while you pull the trigger and slowly lower the hammer down. As you do this attempt to turn the cylinder. 4. You will reach a point where the cylinder will unlock and you will be able to lower the hammer so the firing pin comes to rest in between the rims of two cartridges so if the hammer is struck or the gun is dropped the firing pin will not impact a primer and you have all of the cylinders of your revolver loaded. I have tried this and it works on my 1860 army Richards conversion, Colt frontier six shooter, 1878 Colt Frontier double action, Smith and Wesson second model American, Smith and Wesson New Model #3 frontier, and 1881 Smith and Wesson double action frontier.
Yep. Lots of subtleties. My personal SAA repro has a transfer bar firing pin and a frame-mounted transfer bar block 'safety' lever. It *looks* like the original, but is technically quite distinct.
Personally I could foresee an impact that could distort the notch or break the sear. If the gun hit the rocks from horse height and was still on the holster (IE you got thrown from the hoses) You’d have not only the impact of the revolver but the rider’s weight on top of that. Just me but I’ll always do the load 1, skip 1, load 4 on a saa.
Colt SAA Phantom Chamber 👍 Load only 5 rounds resting the hammer down on the empty Phantom Chamber. If you live through these 1st five rounds then reload to six while saving you safety concerns until after your gunfight is over. 🤠"MERICA" !!!
The gun in question I’ve heard was an older Pietta made in the 60s I can only speculate that it probably mirrors the original just for ease of manufacture and old school thinking on safety also absent of many safety laws
No "safety" would have mattered. Baldwin's denials notwithstanding, he was rehearsing a scene where he intentionally pulled the trigger. Now, he didn't intend to shoot the gun or kill anyone, but he did intend to pull the trigger. No safety will prevent a person from intentionally pulling a trigger on a live round.
I own several Ubertis and a Colt SAA. Since the Baldwin incident, I've only looked at one Uberti. In the down position the firing pin is almost touching the primer of the cartridge under the hammer. You can pull the hammer back just over a quarter of an inch before you engage the "safety" notch. If you release the hammer just before it engages the "safety" notch, it will snap forward with a surprising (at least to me) amount of force. Enough to detonate a primer? I'm not sure, I guess that would depend on a number of factors, such as how hard or soft the primer was, how it was seated and maybe other things. I haven't looked at any of my other SAA pistols as I haven't cared enough to make the effort. However I do plan on trying this out at my next range visit
A picture of the trigger nose (sear) to show how thin they are and how susceptible to snap/chip/break and even examples of broken hammer notches and sears to show. I used to have 6-8 examples but haven’t seen them in decades.
Ive read both that they REALLY DID carry with an empty cylinder, and that original army manuals instruct to load six and carry in that safety notch, and that was considered perfectly adequate. Which one of these is true?
Both. When Colt introduced the SAA it was intended to be carried in the manual rebound "safety" notch, and under most circumstances that is sufficient. But over time a few people dropped fully loaded guns that were in the rebound position hard enough and broke the tooth off, firing the gun. There is a potentially apocryphal story that even Wyatt Earp had such a thing happen to him when he leaned back in a chair and his gun fell out of his holster, discharging it, which led him to carrying on an empty chamber afterwards. After such issues came out, Colt began advising to not use the rebound notch as a safety and most people from then on used the "cowboy load" resting the hammer on an empty chamber. I can't remember years and dates when changes happened, but that's the basic answer.
So basically I think of the "safety notch" sort of like the push button safety on an automatic. Its "safe" with the safety on. But it's even safer on an empty chamber.
The first notch or "safety notch" was never safe. It merely allowed buyers to whistle past the graveyard. Colt sold more guns because nobody wanted a 5 shooter. The flimsy trigger sear will break or collapse when the gun is dropped on the hammer, not the safety notch. Ever if it never breaks, with use, the sear wears down over time causing the sear to shorten like a knife that's been sharpened many times. At this point the firing pin protrudes into the cartridge primer when the hammer is on the safety notch! The trigger still feels perfectly normal. I own an older SAA that has this condition. The only safe way to carry a loaded SAA with an original style hammer is to only load 5 rounds with the hammer all the way down on an empty chamber.
Both my uncles have shot themselves or a friend with original 22lr colt single action armies due to the hammer safty issues. One being in the holster, the other it was just on the seat of the truck they where driving and it just went off. And thats why i have a rugar with a transferbar safty. But its fun to see you go over it in detail for people
@@lairdcummings9092 The early Ruger's were built just like the original SAA. It took multiple lawsuits before they changed the design to use the transfer bar.
I have seen a handful of negligent discharges. Even happened to me when I was a kid. Nobody was ever hurt because of muzzle safety. That being said, every single time it happened, the operator was handling the gun. Never seen one "just go off"
the uberti open top has a safety that you must engage with a small screwdriver, i guess it makes it not able to hit the primer, idk why its even included, import reasons i guess, the first click is enough to be considered a safety on SAA imports?
I'd really like to see some testing on how effective of a safety that safety notch is. People always talk about the cowboy load, and how its the only safe way to carry a single action. I have a hard time believing anyone in 18XX was using the cowboy load. Supposedly Wyatt Earp said everyone used it but.. Earp kind of said a lot of things. I'm not saying its not objectively safer to load five (I only load five personally), I just wonder how unsafe the original safety measures really are. Id be willing to bet they are a hell of a lot more effective than people thing.
You state that the manufacturer of your replica weapon is an Uberti. The gun responsible for the late unpleasantness on the set of the movie _Rust_ was a circa 1960s F.lli (Fratelli) Pietta long Colt .45 revolver. I believe it did not have any of the later safety mechanisms and had a three lb trigger. Alec Baldwin was practising the cross-draw from a seated position, intending to do it faster and faster each iteration. It was during the (unfilmed) second rehearsal attempt that the negligent discharge occurred.
Isn't there also a reproduction hammer for this weapon that has a spring loaded firing pin? This feature makes the weapon immune to misfire due to the hammer dropping from any distance lower than full cock, plus illuminates accidental inertia discharge. I've seen it somewhere...
Why did colt put the loading gate on the right side? Why does it feel so awkward to me even after all these years. I can load 4 with one pass. It feels like a counter clockwise rotation on a left side feed gate would "flow" better? Is that a ruger or smith thing?
is this sort of safety necessary for other type of revolvers with a frame mounted safety pin as well? I can click my H&Rs one click to have the hammer not resting on the firing pin. I would guess thats better when you drop it.
regardless of what safety features are on your colt, if you follow the rules of firearm safety, no one will get hurt (let alone die). looking at you alec baldwin.
In the hypothetical case of a rebound event, would the hammer have enough energy to ignite a primer since it has only started to compress the hammer spring. On the other subject, Hollywood prop guns get all sorts of abuse, to include "fanning" the trigger and this is known to damage the safety notch IIRC.
That's what I thought too, these guns are probably played with constantly, fanned, etc. Not hard to believe the gun in question was worn to a point where it had a scary light trigger or other mechanical problem that might make it go off unexpectedly, especially considering the crew were incompetent enough to hand over a gun loaded with live ammunition.
An empty cylinder chamber under the hammer is an old way and the best way to prevent accidental discharge of of any revolver. Six rounds in the cylinder is no good if the first shot goes into your thigh or other lower body parts. Just think five shot six shooter.
The best safety is common sense. Don't point a loaded gun at someone and pull the trigger. Alec Baldwin can talk all he wants but at the end of the day he pulled the trigger while pointing the gun unsafely.
Has anyone ever tested the likelihood of the "inertial failure" in a SAA? It just seems like a very unlikely scenario. I mean, the trigger is so light. Any inertial "bounce" of the trigger is going to be much less exaggerated than the concomitant motion of the longer and heavier hammer (i.e. an impact force bouncing the hammer back say 5 degrees would only move the trigger a fraction of a degree) meaning that the trigger return spring should be able to easily catch the hammer on its way down.
Never mind any safeties, why can you load live rounds into a prop gun anyway? Couldn't you just swap the cylinder for one that's not the right dimensions for any real caliber? It's not like ballistic properties are particularly relevant for blanks.
Prop guns are literally just guns that are property of the studio. They aren't custom made. As for making cylinders that exist purely to fire off-caliber blanks (and the blanks to go in them); sounds like it'd be expensive to set up, for a really niche market. Doesn't seem impossible, though.
Must be one of those "violent" guns the media keep talking about when whining about '"gun violence." All of my guns are pacifists, they have never hurt a living thing on their own.
Without access to the actual piece that was fired, which is currently in an FBI lab, any commentary concerning its capabilities are moot. Otherwise, it is similar to looking at an undamaged vehicle and saying that a similar one of the same make/model/year would not have crashed in the same manner.
Legend has it that a badly worn or missing firing pin hole insert could allow a primer to set back with enough force to throw the hammer back far enough to index the cylinder, drop, and fire the next cartridge, perhaps emptying the gun in full auto (not just 1873 Colts, any revolver with a hammer mounted firing pin). Is there any truth to this or is it just myth? Considering that primer set-back actuation as a design feature is well known, it seems plausible to think it could happen as a fail mode. Emphasis on "COULD". Thanks.
@@calanon534 If a primer is unsupported it will be pushed out of the case like a piston. In effect it would be "fanning" the hammer, the difference being where the energy comes from, ones hand or an unsupported primer. My question is, has this ever been documented to have actually happened?
@@calanon534 Not to beat a dead horse here. I just checked some parts schematics at Numrich and Taylors. The original Colts (1873, 1877, etc.) had a insert called a "recoil plate". I also found this part shown for Pietta 1873's, being called a "firing pin bushing". I did not find it shown for Uberti revolvers. Anyway, if this part was missing then the primer would be totally unsupported and at least rupture/blow out upon firing. Perhaps this is where the story comes from.
@@thinkingbill1304 "Fanning" the hammer? With a primer? Acting like a piston? I see what you think you're saying, and no, this is STILL not mechanically possible. If the primer protruded enough from the cartridge case to act on the hammer enough to push it back "like a piston," the entire cylinder would bind up if the cylinder attempted to advance to the next chamber. Primers loose enough to do that in the first place, would shear off, fall out, or jam the cylinder. Sheared primers bind up high powered revolvers all the time that have problems with recoil force acting on the loaded rounds in the chamber. Primers also don't have enough mass to do what you're asking it to do, even with a non-transfer bar revolver. Then again, this is a.. well, okay, the SLOGAN is that "this is a free country." If you think you can get a revolver, any revolver, to do this, buy one, buy some pre-made ammo, buy components to hand load with, and buy the tools to make small batches of ammo with, and make it happen. Extensive testing, tinkering, and firing many rounds, if you wish to disprove my assertion. Or, you know, don't.
If you remember back to the first series of S&W 686 (yes, it's double action, but..) they had a problem with primers expanding into the firing pin hole bushing. When this happened, the cylinder would bind, and not rotate. If the primer came back far enough to cause the hammer to rise, the cylinder will most likely be caught, and not rotate - I really would not expect a multiple discharge as suggested.
Given the current "quest for knowledge" about how the 1873 works because of that now "delayed" movie, this may have muddied the water more as those not knowledgeable of the 1873's mechanisms may now assume that many of this type of sidearm operate this way. Otherwise well presented.
Yep. I have a Heritage Arms SAA, and it has a transfer block firing pin and a frame-mounted transfer block safety lever. Quite different from what was shown here, and much more obvious to the eye.
For a 6 shot SAA clone this is how I load 5 safely.... Load on, SKIP one cylinder, then load the last 4. Then fully cock the hammer and safely let it down on the empty chamber. Load one, skip one, load 4. Fully Cock and then manually lower the hammer on the empty cylinder.
These firearms are plenty safe if you load them with 5 shells leaving a empty under the hammer and the way you do this loading is you load a shell skip the next round and load the other 4 shells then you pull the hammer to full cock and let the hammer down slowly on the empty chamber
I think your inertia theory could possibly happen maybe once in a blue moon but it would be extremely rare. But- it is for those rare or stupid events that people smarter than a fence post should carry a “cowboy” load. Unfortunately there are plenty of those “that will never happen to me” folks out there. You know “ the dumber than a fence post” bunch who excel at stupid feats. I believe AB May be a chapter president. I grew up with single and double action revolvers. I’ve never had a problem with one. People just need to grow up the way we used too. With our dads and grandads teaching us common sense even tho sometimes it took a leather belt or a thick switch to fully deliver the message.
Tell me you dont know how the safety notch works with out telling me. As long as the trigger is not pulled but the hammer is and slips or is slightly pushed back the weapon is not firing.
My guns go off all the time when they are sitting in my safe. I have even had unloaded guns LOAD THEMSELVES and fire while locked in my safe. Sometimes things just happen.
The most important safety is the brain of the person holding the gun, and those have notoriously varying build quality.
And even the best builds are occasionally subject to glitches.
The point every one seems to miss is the gun was supposed to be loaded because the bullet tips wouldbe clearly visible. It would not be possible on a visual inspection of the loaded gun to tell if the dummy rounds were real and for the shot he had to shoot at the camera my guess is he was in shock and incapable of knowing if he pulled the trigger. That means for example he could easily pass a lie detector test.
All you guys nailed it, and it's exactly everyone's point about Baldwins action during this whole issue. He didn't use a single one of his 11 brain cells. I'm sure he's since lost 6 or 8 of those after seeing his melt downs. All "joking" aside cause its not really funny....Alec Baldwin needs to be put away this guy is an actual menace to society, He's attacked people before. He's been abusive before I mean this goes back to Kim Basinger telling us he was abusive and then listening to his phone call to his kid abusing her over the phone. The man needs to be put away.
@@womble321 If you need dummies with bullet tips because you're filming from the front, then they shouldn't have unused primers, so you can see they're dummies from the rear by looking through the loading gate.
@@mikepette4422 Unfortunately being an arrogant douche with rage issues isnt a crime, we wouldnt have the jail space to deal with them all.
The modern transfer bar safety is the best method to make a revolver safe, but it still requires the safety and awareness of the operator 100% to avoid accidental discharge.
Sadly, all of these safeties can be overcome by an idiot pulling the trigger when the gun is cocked.
Sad, but true.
After he was told that the gun was loaded with non-firing prop ammunition.
The best saftey is the one between your ears
Ain’t that the truth
@@Iceykitsune Idiot. It has nothing to do with what ammo was in it. He claimed that he "Never pulled the trigger"...which is bulls***.
My personal favorite is the ruger disconnect. Basically, the hammer doesnt connect to the firing pin, and instead, they have the hammer strike a plate, which then strikes the pin. this plate will retract into the gun when the trigger is not depressed and also when the hammer is moved slowly, so that the only point when the hammer is actually in contact with the firing pin is when firing
Yes, but you lose those oh so nice Colt-like clicks. It just isn't the same cocking a Ruger.
So... A transfer bar
@@erg0centric Yep.
Any safety on any firearm can be overcome with the improper placement of one loose nut behind the trigger.
ive tried to get one of these to fire by striking the hammer after the whole baldwin thing occurred. it took 7 solid hits with a 24oz brass sledge but it eventually broke the safety ledge and could fire when hit from the rear.
Yeah, if I remember right, hammer is hardened, so you can't just casually "bend" a teeth on safety notch.
The biggest danger of the SAA is having the hammer down on a live round and not even on the 'safety' notch. In this configuration it doesn't take a lot of impact to fire. Safest carry is of course to only load 5 with hammer down on the empty chamber.
Another safety system I've seen uses a cylinder pin with two notches so when you want the gun safe you can push the pin deeper to the second notch which lets the pin protrude out of the back of the gun and prevent the hammer from being able to fully drop forward. Of course the best and safest system would be the Ruger 'transfer bar' type which makes the gun almost foolproof...but of course people have shot themselves and others with them too....so fools continue to evolve and become able to defeat even the best safety systems.
Not all are made to such high standards, plenty of stories (with court cases) of SAA type revolvers going off when dropped thanks to the trigger tip snapping. It’s not every gun, but when it does happen results can be catastrophic, so empty chamber under the hammer for the SAA family.
Given some of the things the armorer said (and other incidents on set) I’m not sure they knew to use a safety notch.
That poor hammer
@@recoilrob324 Yep that cylinder pin thing is a another kind of lawyer safety. Pietta if I´m not mistaken?
The movie release date might be delayed, but the directors cut with behind the scenes footage is gonna be awesome!
🤔😳😲
Thousands possibly millions of shots have been fired from S.A.A.s in the last one hundred years in Westerns and I am sure up until probably the eighties safety was not a major concern, negligent discharges did not happen because the actors and crew involved knew their guns and what was good practice and what wasn't. The failures here were human not equipment, had any one of the three people who handled this firearm before the incident done what they were supposed to this would not have happened.
This was an accident, like J. Epstein committed suicide.
Baldwin has made westerns for forty plus years, this is the single most common gun for said movies, he was either incredibly arrogant, or simply stupid. Most of those "thousands of shots" were by men or women who dropped one cartridge, skip one, load four more, lower the hammer on an empty chamber. From that, one knows cocking the trigger makes it live. When a fool kills someone by stupidity, it's best called murder. I've been hit with an accidental discharge, had a couple of my own, over fifty years working on guns, each was an issue of unfamiliarity, and only proper handling meant no one was hurt, just my handmade oak tool chest, with some bird shot embedded, to keep me honest. Johnny Cash sang a song of a boy who took a rifle for practice, a century ago, and killed a man, "practice my aim". The court found the correct verdict, being a boy doesn't obviate responsibility. I've got an Uberti SAA with a five and a half inch barrel, and an additional safety, the center pin can block the hammer fall, absolutely. In my own experience, adding the bells and whistles only makes one think "it is safe", I hate the Ruger, we fix them safer than when we built them originally, transfer bar only works with accidents of dropping, almost every accidental discharge is losing sight of the chamber status, and pulling a trigger with a live round. Two decades in the Corps, a "discharge barrel" at every armory, every range, every turnaround point, you unload a weapon into the barrel of sand, and despite this, it was never a surprise to hear a round fired, while cleaning one's own, in the back. Never the less, every head swivelled.
Actually .... the 5 and 1 empty "cowboy load" came about because of actor incompetence with the firearms. Outside of actors people carrier them with 6 on the safety notch with no issue. There is only one report of a break of the load notch in army trials due to a flaw in manufacturing. The safety notch prevented the discharge.
I really like advanced robust safty features....the engineering behind them is fascinating.
I received my ARMAX journal and read Ashley Hlebinsky’s paper first. It, and the rest of the journal’s content is great. Thanks for letting us know about it and for this video. Someday I hope there’s an electronic version of ARMAX with animations by Bruno :)
As a certain Ex-Soviet colonel once said "The greatest handgun ever made. The Colt Single Action Army."
The only fact based explanation i found on the Internet.
Best demo so far..
A nice concise explanation of the mechanism.
Another interesting approach would be to put a safety on it like they do on the "Heritage Rough Rider" where when you flip the safety switch up and a piece of metal inside the main frame blocks the mid section of hammer from falling forward. Great approach for the Colt Single Action if you wanted to carry 6 rounds instead of 5. That way when your ready to fire just cock the hammer back,😁 flip off the safety switch and your ready to rock n roll!!!! :)😁
That would only be a "great approach" if you didn't give a rat's ass about historical accuracy, aesthetics, functionality, etc. That safety on the Heritage is a definte deal killer. Transfer bars are a much superior system if you really need a safety.
When I was introduced to this revolver, I was shown, "drop a round in, skip a round, four more, hammer back, down on an empty chamber. That was always the number one means of safe, can't fail, and remains the best. I've had a number, carried regularly, my current Uberti, SAA, 5 and half inch barrel, also has a cylinder pin with a notch allowing the pin to hold the hammer away from anything short of a sledgehammer blow.
The real issue is never "gun safety", it's the guy behind the trigger. This is actually one of the safest revolvers to ever carry, and quite effective, more so than a 1911, my favorite pistol. Semper Fidelis, John McClain
I have eagerly been awaiting the 1873 episode. This is a nice appetizer.
If it was dropped with the muzzle pointing up, upon first impact of the ground on the handle the trigger it could slip off the "first notch" due to inertia of the hammer, and inertia on the trigger prevents the sear slipping back into the notch. That shouldn't cause a discharge falling that short distance but now the firing pin is resting on a primer, if the gun bounced off the ground and rolls to then land on the hammer then the ground acts like the hammer and the actual hammer just acts as a firing pin.
So what you really need is for a way to prevent inertia allowing the trigger to slip out of the first notch. I think the way to achieve that is with a much lower mass trigger and a greater force on the return spring for the trigger so even if the hammer is drawn back a bit by inertia, the trigger will fall back into the notch.
I've wondered for a long time why Colt never put extra cylinder notches on the 1873 cylinder like the Manhattan firearms company did their percussion revolvers.
No space most likely
wdym they did them on their percussion models as well
Patent protection issues, perhaps?
You'd have to make the cylinder and circle the chambers fall on larger in diameter to give space for the pin to drop between rims and have enough chamber wall thickness to make putting shallow a hole there feasible. As it is on a .45 SAA the rims all but touch and there is little metal between chambers.
@@Broken_Yugo Yes, but the notches that _are_ on the cylinder already lie offset to avoid the thinnest part of the cylinder. Any notch between the chambers will be, in fact, ground to the same thickness but on the other side of the chamber.
I bought Armax just for that article.
there are some german weihrauch saa style revolvers with a transfer bar, rugers clones which also have other safety features with their loading gate etc
A little late, but appreciate the deep dive. Nobody else showed the working innards.
Thanks for sharing
You need to add the new Uberti retracting firing pin mechanism to your list. Without the trigger held to the rear the firing pin retracts into the hammer far enough that it can't contact the primer (supposedly).
That's what my Cattleman has on it also..Seems to work as it was designed to..
*laughs in Pietta old school style legit setup*
Thank you
Heritage Arms has the roll over manual safety with a cut out to allow the hammer all the way to the firing pin in fire mode and an impact resistant bar to keep the hammer back in safe
Heritage safetys are the BEST! Wish this was adapted to the larger calipers
Thanks
Thank you for sharing your research.
I have recently acquired a Cimarron Pisolero with the safety notch you illustrated. Seems to me that that first click safety notch would be enough for normal carry.
Thank you for this
At 1:00 all I could think was "dang that heat treating looks amazing"
The Pietta Colt SAA repros fairly often have hair triggers in my experience compared to the Ubertis (I have shot 3 or 4 of them that a friend of mine owns split across the brands). Even the lightest touch on the trigger when manipulating the hammer can cause it to drop.
Do not think the Piettas have any extra safety features in them but it might just have been the age of the Pietta SAAs that my friend owns.
Is there any comprehensive information on how the different reproductions of the SAA are set up with the safety mechanisms?
Great demonstration. Thank you.
Isn't the safety of the firearm placed directly on the arms master on set?
The prop handler?
This has always been my understanding.
unless the actor is a left-wing a-hole
then all blame is placed on them
...and the producer who hired the arms master. Baldwin can't escape responsibility, as he was the producer.
My A.Uberti reproduction 1873 SAA has two notches in the arbor the first notch let's the hammer fall and the second notch acts as a hammer stop by letting the arbor hold the hammer far enough away from the primers to prevent discharge
wow a good video on this subject finally
Thank you for this video.
Thanks for the clarification. I was only familiar with the hammer fixed firing pin and the transfer bar safety system. Do we know what system was in place on THE SUBJECT GUN?
I’ve read reports it was a Pietta but an old one made in the 60s I can only speculate the older Italian guns where probably original copies without thought to additional safeties. So anyone with one from that era hopefully chimes in.
@@dustyak79 even the more recently imported ones are allowed to be imported the old style way, the first notch is considered a safety for import regulations
Mark Serbu, movie armourer, purchased an identical pistol. He reviews it here ruclips.net/video/Jt05ovdaD3Q/видео.html
@@HircineDaWolf They can be imported but say certain states might require other safety devices. I don’t know that for a fact but it would make sense the manufacturers would include some for sales in those states. Hell California requires Cancer warnings labels on everything I see it when I order Truck parts here in Missouri.
@@CitizenSmith50 If he purchased a new one chances are something could be different as my comment above the gun could of been made in the 60s and Pietta has a couple different safety styles in new guns even today .
so Ian is Gun Jezus... I propose that we grant Othias the title of Revolver Apostle... love it when you nerd out over these revolvers.
Tell you what I do, but will not claim it is safe, but seems to be pretty effective. 1, load all of the cylinders. 2.Hold the gun in a position that will allow you to turn the cylinder with the hand you are holding the gun with. 3. With the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, cock the hammer back. Keep a firm grip in the hammer spur while you pull the trigger and slowly lower the hammer down. As you do this attempt to turn the cylinder. 4. You will reach a point where the cylinder will unlock and you will be able to lower the hammer so the firing pin comes to rest in between the rims of two cartridges so if the hammer is struck or the gun is dropped the firing pin will not impact a primer and you have all of the cylinders of your revolver loaded. I have tried this and it works on my 1860 army Richards conversion, Colt frontier six shooter, 1878 Colt Frontier double action, Smith and Wesson second model American, Smith and Wesson New Model #3 frontier, and 1881 Smith and Wesson double action frontier.
Yep. Lots of subtleties.
My personal SAA repro has a transfer bar firing pin and a frame-mounted transfer bar block 'safety' lever. It *looks* like the original, but is technically quite distinct.
Personally I could foresee an impact that could distort the notch or break the sear. If the gun hit the rocks from horse height and was still on the holster (IE you got thrown from the hoses) You’d have not only the impact of the revolver but the rider’s weight on top of that. Just me but I’ll always do the load 1, skip 1, load 4 on a saa.
Colt SAA Phantom Chamber 👍 Load only 5 rounds resting the hammer down on the empty Phantom Chamber. If you live through these 1st five rounds then reload to six while saving you safety concerns until after your gunfight is over. 🤠"MERICA" !!!
The gun in question I’ve heard was an older Pietta made in the 60s I can only speculate that it probably mirrors the original just for ease of manufacture and old school thinking on safety also absent of many safety laws
No "safety" would have mattered. Baldwin's denials notwithstanding, he was rehearsing a scene where he intentionally pulled the trigger. Now, he didn't intend to shoot the gun or kill anyone, but he did intend to pull the trigger. No safety will prevent a person from intentionally pulling a trigger on a live round.
I own several Ubertis and a Colt SAA.
Since the Baldwin incident, I've only looked at one Uberti.
In the down position the firing pin is almost touching the primer of the cartridge under the hammer.
You can pull the hammer back just over a quarter of an inch before you engage the "safety" notch.
If you release the hammer just before it engages the "safety" notch, it will snap forward with a surprising (at least to me) amount of force.
Enough to detonate a primer?
I'm not sure, I guess that would depend on a number of factors, such as how hard or soft the primer was, how it was seated and maybe other things.
I haven't looked at any of my other SAA pistols as I haven't cared enough to make the effort.
However I do plan on trying this out at my next range visit
You could test it with just the primer on safely at home if you really wanted to. Effectively using the gun as a cap gun.
Single actions are neat.
A picture of the trigger nose (sear) to show how thin they are and how susceptible to snap/chip/break and even examples of broken hammer notches and sears to show. I used to have 6-8 examples but haven’t seen them in decades.
Ive read both that they REALLY DID carry with an empty cylinder, and that original army manuals instruct to load six and carry in that safety notch, and that was considered perfectly adequate. Which one of these is true?
Both. When Colt introduced the SAA it was intended to be carried in the manual rebound "safety" notch, and under most circumstances that is sufficient. But over time a few people dropped fully loaded guns that were in the rebound position hard enough and broke the tooth off, firing the gun. There is a potentially apocryphal story that even Wyatt Earp had such a thing happen to him when he leaned back in a chair and his gun fell out of his holster, discharging it, which led him to carrying on an empty chamber afterwards. After such issues came out, Colt began advising to not use the rebound notch as a safety and most people from then on used the "cowboy load" resting the hammer on an empty chamber. I can't remember years and dates when changes happened, but that's the basic answer.
@@aurorawhorealis 👍👍
So basically I think of the "safety notch" sort of like the push button safety on an automatic. Its "safe" with the safety on. But it's even safer on an empty chamber.
The first notch or "safety notch" was never safe. It merely allowed buyers to whistle past the graveyard. Colt sold more guns because nobody wanted a 5 shooter. The flimsy trigger sear will break or collapse when the gun is dropped on the hammer, not the safety notch. Ever if it never breaks, with use, the sear wears down over time causing the sear to shorten like a knife that's been sharpened many times. At this point the firing pin protrudes into the cartridge primer when the hammer is on the safety notch! The trigger still feels perfectly normal. I own an older SAA that has this condition. The only safe way to carry a loaded SAA with an original style hammer is to only load 5 rounds with the hammer all the way down on an empty chamber.
The inertial discharge you mention from the safety notch, is that enough distance to release from with spring force to then detonate a round?
Both my uncles have shot themselves or a friend with original 22lr colt single action armies due to the hammer safty issues. One being in the holster, the other it was just on the seat of the truck they where driving and it just went off. And thats why i have a rugar with a transferbar safty. But its fun to see you go over it in detail for people
It's a family tradition .
Ruger Single Six is about as fool-proof as is possible. Brilliant and simple.
My Heritage Arms SAA has the same mechanism.
@@lairdcummings9092 The early Ruger's were built just like the original SAA. It took multiple lawsuits before they changed the design to use the transfer bar.
@@redcat9436 Multiple lawsuits from negligent plaintiffs.
I have seen a handful of negligent discharges. Even happened to me when I was a kid. Nobody was ever hurt because of muzzle safety. That being said, every single time it happened, the operator was handling the gun. Never seen one "just go off"
the uberti open top has a safety that you must engage with a small screwdriver, i guess it makes it not able to hit the primer, idk why its even included, import reasons i guess, the first click is enough to be considered a safety on SAA imports?
Good job…
I'd really like to see some testing on how effective of a safety that safety notch is.
People always talk about the cowboy load, and how its the only safe way to carry a single action. I have a hard time believing anyone in 18XX was using the cowboy load. Supposedly Wyatt Earp said everyone used it but.. Earp kind of said a lot of things.
I'm not saying its not objectively safer to load five (I only load five personally), I just wonder how unsafe the original safety measures really are. Id be willing to bet they are a hell of a lot more effective than people thing.
Great video but I was waiting for Mae to accidentally shoot it
Single action is the action
You state that the manufacturer of your replica weapon is an Uberti. The gun responsible for the late unpleasantness on the set of the movie _Rust_ was a circa 1960s F.lli (Fratelli) Pietta long Colt .45 revolver. I believe it did not have any of the later safety mechanisms and had a three lb trigger.
Alec Baldwin was practising the cross-draw from a seated position, intending to do it faster and faster each iteration. It was during the (unfilmed) second rehearsal attempt that the negligent discharge occurred.
What about SAA loaded with five rounds? Isn't that only sure way to carry that weapon?
Isn't there also a reproduction hammer for this weapon that has a spring loaded firing pin? This feature makes the weapon immune to misfire due to the hammer dropping from any distance lower than full cock, plus illuminates accidental inertia discharge. I've seen it somewhere...
Why did colt put the loading gate on the right side? Why does it feel so awkward to me even after all these years. I can load 4 with one pass. It feels like a counter clockwise rotation on a left side feed gate would "flow" better? Is that a ruger or smith thing?
"Special Operations FoxHound - Revolver Ocelot".
is this sort of safety necessary for other type of revolvers with a frame mounted safety pin as well? I can click my H&Rs one click to have the hammer not resting on the firing pin. I would guess thats better when you drop it.
I just want to carry the greatest Handgun ever produced in .44 Magnum and with all 6 rounds .Is that so bad ? .
The Astra model 44? Sounds good to me.
@@GarfieldEnjoyer1878
But I want it to look cool .The SAA looks cool .The Super Blackhawk does not .
@@GarfieldEnjoyer1878
Nice
@@GarfieldEnjoyer1878
Saw it , it is awesome .Sadly , it does not have a firing pin on the hammer .
I remain convinced* that the true purpose of that first notch is just to ensure that the mechanism makes four clicks when cocked.
*not really
regardless of what safety features are on your colt, if you follow the rules of firearm safety, no one will get hurt (let alone die). looking at you alec baldwin.
Here's the best way to carry any single action army type revolver. Carry five rounds in the gun with the hammer down on the empty chamber
In the hypothetical case of a rebound event, would the hammer have enough energy to ignite a primer since it has only started to compress the hammer spring.
On the other subject, Hollywood prop guns get all sorts of abuse, to include "fanning" the trigger and this is known to damage the safety notch IIRC.
That's what I thought too, these guns are probably played with constantly, fanned, etc. Not hard to believe the gun in question was worn to a point where it had a scary light trigger or other mechanical problem that might make it go off unexpectedly, especially considering the crew were incompetent enough to hand over a gun loaded with live ammunition.
Safety # 1 don't point it at someone's heart.
I have no strong opinions on the recent affair because I have not looked into the matter myself. I thought I'd comment anyway.
Always the extra long base pin safety.
Ah yes, the gun that shoots on its own
Calling an 1873 Colt SSA "obscure" had me 🤣
An empty cylinder chamber under the hammer is an old way and the best way to prevent accidental discharge of of any revolver. Six rounds in the cylinder is no good if the first shot goes into your thigh or other lower body parts. Just think five shot six shooter.
If you work out of South Carolina….why don’t your crew sound like Low County Boil ?…..Thanks from the Wallowa Mountains…cheers
The best safety is common sense.
Don't point a loaded gun at someone and pull the trigger. Alec Baldwin can talk all he wants but at the end of the day he pulled the trigger while pointing the gun unsafely.
Has anyone ever tested the likelihood of the "inertial failure" in a SAA? It just seems like a very unlikely scenario. I mean, the trigger is so light. Any inertial "bounce" of the trigger is going to be much less exaggerated than the concomitant motion of the longer and heavier hammer (i.e. an impact force bouncing the hammer back say 5 degrees would only move the trigger a fraction of a degree) meaning that the trigger return spring should be able to easily catch the hammer on its way down.
Never mind any safeties, why can you load live rounds into a prop gun anyway? Couldn't you just swap the cylinder for one that's not the right dimensions for any real caliber? It's not like ballistic properties are particularly relevant for blanks.
Prop guns are literally just guns that are property of the studio. They aren't custom made.
As for making cylinders that exist purely to fire off-caliber blanks (and the blanks to go in them); sounds like it'd be expensive to set up, for a really niche market. Doesn't seem impossible, though.
@@ssholum Indeed. The more appropriate question is, why would you ever have LIVE rounds in place of inert rounds on a set at all?
The best safety even doesn't cost you a dime on a 6 shooter - load 5 and rest the hammer on the empty chamber...
funny how Rust is a major issue for SAA..
LOL
A revolver I used had a long metal bar that went down the barrel. Not for ejecting but to lock the hammer in place while reloading etc.
SAFETY GIANTS YU AR
The SAA is the world’s first smart gun- it automatically fires when aimed at a human
Apparently.
According to certain well-known individuals, anyway.
Must be one of those "violent" guns the media keep talking about when whining about '"gun violence." All of my guns are pacifists, they have never hurt a living thing on their own.
Uberti safetyb4 click hammer sucks. Just disable it. 5 load and hammer in empty one.
👍
It'll be safest when its far, far away from the murderer, Alec Baldwin.
Alec: but the gun gained sentience and fired by itself
Truly, this weapon's machine spirit was corrupted.
I own a reproduction SAA and I never saw a hammer like that before.
Without access to the actual piece that was fired, which is currently in an FBI lab, any commentary concerning its capabilities are moot.
Otherwise, it is similar to looking at an undamaged vehicle and saying that a similar one of the same make/model/year would not have crashed in the same manner.
A cowboy load is the safest way to carry a Colt saa
Legend has it that a badly worn or missing firing pin hole insert could allow a primer to set back with enough force to throw the hammer back far enough to index the cylinder, drop, and fire the next cartridge, perhaps emptying the gun in full auto (not just 1873 Colts, any revolver with a hammer mounted firing pin). Is there any truth to this or is it just myth? Considering that primer set-back actuation as a design feature is well known, it seems plausible to think it could happen as a fail mode. Emphasis on "COULD". Thanks.
"perhaps emptying the gun in full auto"
Not physically possible. Literally, a 0. It's not mechanically possible for that to happen, period.
@@calanon534 If a primer is unsupported it will be pushed out of the case like a piston. In effect it would be "fanning" the hammer, the difference being where the energy comes from, ones hand or an unsupported primer. My question is, has this ever been documented to have actually happened?
@@calanon534 Not to beat a dead horse here. I just checked some parts schematics at Numrich and Taylors. The original Colts (1873, 1877, etc.) had a insert called a "recoil plate". I also found this part shown for Pietta 1873's, being called a "firing pin bushing". I did not find it shown for Uberti revolvers. Anyway, if this part was missing then the primer would be totally unsupported and at least rupture/blow out upon firing. Perhaps this is where the story comes from.
@@thinkingbill1304 "Fanning" the hammer? With a primer? Acting like a piston?
I see what you think you're saying, and no, this is STILL not mechanically possible.
If the primer protruded enough from the cartridge case to act on the hammer enough to push it back "like a piston," the entire cylinder would bind up if the cylinder attempted to advance to the next chamber.
Primers loose enough to do that in the first place, would shear off, fall out, or jam the cylinder. Sheared primers bind up high powered revolvers all the time that have problems with recoil force acting on the loaded rounds in the chamber. Primers also don't have enough mass to do what you're asking it to do, even with a non-transfer bar revolver.
Then again, this is a.. well, okay, the SLOGAN is that "this is a free country." If you think you can get a revolver, any revolver, to do this, buy one, buy some pre-made ammo, buy components to hand load with, and buy the tools to make small batches of ammo with, and make it happen. Extensive testing, tinkering, and firing many rounds, if you wish to disprove my assertion. Or, you know, don't.
If you remember back to the first series of S&W 686 (yes, it's double action, but..) they had a problem with primers expanding into the firing pin hole bushing. When this happened, the cylinder would bind, and not rotate. If the primer came back far enough to cause the hammer to rise, the cylinder will most likely be caught, and not rotate - I really would not expect a multiple discharge as suggested.
👍👍👍
Given the current "quest for knowledge" about how the 1873 works because of that now "delayed" movie, this may have muddied the water more as those not knowledgeable of the 1873's mechanisms may now assume that many of this type of sidearm operate this way. Otherwise well presented.
Yep.
I have a Heritage Arms SAA, and it has a transfer block firing pin and a frame-mounted transfer block safety lever. Quite different from what was shown here, and much more obvious to the eye.
A certain Brandon Herrera also has a video on the matter. I like his NSFW and to the point language.
For a 6 shot SAA clone this is how I load 5 safely.... Load on, SKIP one cylinder, then load the last 4. Then fully cock the hammer and safely let it down on the empty chamber. Load one, skip one, load 4. Fully Cock and then manually lower the hammer on the empty cylinder.
These firearms are plenty safe if you load them with 5 shells leaving a empty under the hammer and the way you do this loading is you load a shell skip the next round and load the other 4 shells then you pull the hammer to full cock and let the hammer down slowly on the empty chamber
I think your inertia theory could possibly happen maybe once in a blue moon but it would be extremely rare. But- it is for those rare or stupid events that people smarter than a fence post should carry a “cowboy” load. Unfortunately there are plenty of those “that will never happen to me” folks out there. You know “ the dumber than a fence post” bunch who excel at stupid feats. I believe AB May be a chapter president. I grew up with single and double action revolvers. I’ve never had a problem with one. People just need to grow up the way we used too. With our dads and grandads teaching us common sense even tho sometimes it took a leather belt or a thick switch to fully deliver the message.
Tell me you dont know how the safety notch works with out telling me. As long as the trigger is not pulled but the hammer is and slips or is slightly pushed back the weapon is not firing.
My guns go off all the time when they are sitting in my safe. I have even had unloaded guns LOAD THEMSELVES and fire while locked in my safe. Sometimes things just happen.
There are problem SUV's like that too. They start themselves and drive into crowds all the time.
The bolt timing is off on your gun.
👍 für den Algorithmus