D&D Balance is BORING. This is why.
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
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People have been asking me how I balance my combats in tabletop role playing games like Dungeons & Dragons. Well here's my secret... I don't. This is why.
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I did locate this on Kickstarter, but Frontier Workshop's website is no longer functioning.
@@raedlives9261 Yeah, sorry, we were running some maintenance last week, so the website was was down at times.
I will say if you think combat balance is a real problem you can always do pathfinder 2e. The game is much better balanced for combat and the exp system for challenge level actually works really well. it doesn't work as well at higher levels and will vary in effectiveness based on party but even then it is still pretty effective and any adjustments needed to made should be minor. Finally a big factor I have discovered in my time as a GM using both pathfinder 2e and DnD 5e is the players you are playing with.
For example one of my players in pathfinder 2e is very detailed oriented and when I got to an encounter that was pretty free form it caused some friction between me and him. I talked to him about it afterwards and he said that was his biggest gripe with the campaign thus far. I like the dude and I think he is a great player and although the encounter seemed fine to me and fine to many other people because it wasn't super grounded in actual details compared to everything else it caused some friction where other players thought it was fine. A scenario which might be totally fine with one group might cause problems with another group and adapting said scenario to a new group, doing something different entirely, or even finding a new group might be the solution needed. I now know for the future of that campaign when I come across a scenario that is "free form" like that again I could change or adapt it to the party and not to run something like that again (I am running a pre set campaign for pathfinder 2e specifically fists of the ruby phoenix).
Often times I think something not talked about is the group specifically the DM and player interaction and how well they mesh with each other. Just because you are friends outside the game doesn't mean your playstyles will overlap nor will either be wrong or right. For example some people I am friends with that also play DnD and pathfinder 2e I just don't really enjoy playing with that much. Not because I dislike them or the way they play or anything just our styles are different. I discovered I don't like roleplay that much I like some but the thing I am more concerned about is goofing off and making sure everyone at the table is laughing and having fun. Secondly I like doing a lot of combat with more combat focus to the campaign. Some of my friends like doing more roleplay and being less goofy which I don't find fun even if I can be friends with them and enjoy doing things with them outside the table. For the longest time I thought the way to have fun with DnD was roleplay because that is what everyone talks about but after years of playing I discovered I don't like it as much and am more of a combat guy that likes fighting difficult encounters. Hence my current group who like to fight a lot with minimal roleplay. They take combat details super seriously so they can form a strategy to beat a difficult encounter and don't like those free form encounters as much with a lot of roleplay. The campaign fists of the ruby phoenix is mostly about fighting so that works well, and now I know in the future to adapt those encounters and change them instead of running them as is to suit the party. Finally if you are more combat focused and want to ensure you get those difficult encounters Pathfinder 2e is probably more for you. If you like more roleplay, going with the flow, and not worrying about rules DnD 5e is better suited to that in my opinion.
I like my war characters. If I'm playing a former primitive now SW bounty hunter, he is not playing fair.
Don’t blur address, Blur is nondestructive, just put a black box over it
"In a world I stole from so many sources it is starting to look original"
This is comedic gold, Can I get something like this on a mug or as the intro to a campaign?
I would buy such a mug!
I would also buy such a mug, and possibly a shirt bearing this message
Just steal it, this is the DND way
But yes, amazing quote!
I mean, this is how art works usually, that's my excuse
It’s not stealing, it’s taking inspiration and remixing
Been slowly trying to adopt the “war” mindset, 5E and video games have programmed me to just unga-bunga my way through most things and have bad guys just fight to the death.
Actually, Baldur's Gate 3 does the "war" approach pretty interesting for a video game's limited mechanics. That game actually inspired me to give more loot to my players and use more the environments. Everyone at my table loved it!
Any good encounter or Monster has a vested interest in its own survival, and why wouldn't it? Why wouldn't monsters seek to use the high ground? Why would they stand still like a bunch of stationary targets so some Ranger type can yoink them with an arrow to the eyeball? Why wouldn't they take cover and dodge and weave? Why wouldn't a beholder just float higher or use other monsters as meat shields? Why wouldn't a giant grab one hero by the ankle and use that hero's body like a club to fight off the others? Why do Giants not have a drop kick attack? Or kick and stomp in general? Why isn't the dragon causing a forest fire around the players and essentially turning the entire environment into a fire trap? The list goes on and it is right there in the "Captian Obvious" section when a monster is described. Most monsters are played like it is the monster's first rodeo. In a somewhat believable world it isn't the monster's first rodeo. What did the monsters learn from past battles?
I like taking the mindset of “the least terrible thing the enemies can do is kill you” because instead they can politically outmaneuver you, turn you allies against you, attack a place you aren’t while you’re away doing that fight. That singular encounter might not just be a singular encounter that never has ramifications later
I think that the "war" and "sport" might be something of a false dichotomy, at least in terms of balance.
"Combat as war" still needs balance in order to work. Not all imbalance works: if the players were facing a bad guy that at any point knew where they were and what they were doing, and enough goons at his disposal, the players would be just dead.
This might be an extreme example, but it illustrates the fact that you still need to consider the weight of advantages and disadvantages for all parties involved when you consider a "combat as war" scenario.
The difference is that you do not only have to consider combat features, but also other elements which might ruin the experience.
Hell, in most example I've heard, combat as war scenarios are only doable because the opposition simply never tries to mess up the players in the same way. In a way, the GM pulls their punches more than in other situations. That's already a huge advantage to the player.
I think a better distinction might be between "tactical" and "strategic" warfare
I had one player absolutely mortified because the _worst_ most vilified creatures kept associating themselves with him. Every time he needed something, there's creepo dangling it like suspiciously low-hanging fruit. Everywhere he goes, people have heard he's an arms smuggler for the bad guys. The curse of friends in low places!
Petition for DeficientMaster to make a book about his way of playing -------->
Ah heck, I'd take a blog with session notes over a book!
He has the one off curse you can pick up. Says a lot.
"So you want to be a game master" by Justin Alexander
Deficient absolutely has cool unique ideas, but The Alexandrian is probably the best source I would generally suggest people start reading and watching. Talks about many of the same concepts.
I bet when he gets enough subscribers, like the many other RUclipsrs who launch kickstarters, he will do this very thing.
When he gets a high enough subscriber numbers, he will. It’s how RUclipsrs do, because the censorship at Google isn’t paying us for our work. 🤷🏻♂️
D&D RUclipsrs don’t really make RUclips content for fun, it’s about ad revenue, free stuff, nerd fame, and getting followers to fund a project.
I’m not playing basket ball, I’m playing adult pretend, with dice.
Sitting! My favorite sport 😜
Here's a tip, changing my wording around the subject helped a LOT. A mathematical PROBLEM has one correct SOLUTION. But an OBSTACLE, you can go over, under, around, or through it.
I also stopped using terms like COMBAT, EXPLORATION, and SOCIAL ENCOUNTERS. They're either Creature Obstacles or Non-Creature Obstacles, the HOW and WHY of the players' making it past each obstacle is up to them.
discovering not caring about balance has saved me so much time in game prep besides all the in game benefits, great way to combat GM burnout
Newbies do this so naturally. Then we optimize the fun out of it.
The best system to break this habit imo is Mausritter, the combat is so deadly for PCs and foes alike that players quickly start scheming to get the upper hand.
Exactly. Gimme a brand new player any day!
Bah I came prepared to write "first" but someone posted 1 full day before the video was uploaded....!!!!!!!!!!
Completely agree that newbies do this much more naturally
Combat in Into the Odd / Electric Bastionland tend to make them learn the same how to take the upper hand.
The way I have put it for my players is that "their best weapon is questions" since they can gain information with those and it enhances collaborative effort to make the combats memorable
@@wildbanana5527 ko-fi supporters got the early preview
@@juauke"the best weapon is questions" is so good, I think I'm gonna steal it!
I personally love combining "gritty realism" with "milestone xp" and a bunch of other minor changes. It really incentivezes players to "think out of the box " to survive and thrive
it's only good if it's done right
Elaborate the milestone XP one
@@willyfox9978 I think it means you get XP for doing specific things. Like an Achievements system
@@willyfox9978 "milestone xp" means that players level up after achieving a predetermined event. Usually it happens at the end of a quest or after beating an important enemy within the lore. This way players cannot "farm" xp. To get power they are forced to go through with the plot, so they seldom stray too far off from where you want them to be.
@@albertofuzzi7200 I prefer that... Most of our table (2 out of 4 agree with that). Even though we get some XP for killing monsters, most of our lvl up is by lore
The scenario rundown had me laughing harder than I have in a long time. You and your videos are the real treasure we found along the way.
We play in a arena themed game and theres a lot of stuff done even before the combats, trying to poison the enemys food before a match, psych them out by giving the wrong information during interviews and going by performance and bravado. But the enemy does as well in a pretty intense back and forth. We are also allowed to challenge teams way above our own rank and level knowing its not balanced to our level but encouraging us to prep beforehand to perhaps overcome it.
When its no holds barred thats when it becomes the most exciting at the table in my opinion. I really enjoyed how you formulated this in the video putting words into a feeling and playstyle i have been trying to explain to my fellow players who are not used to as intense combats.
wow that sounds like a fun campaign setting. I definitely want to steal it.
sick
When are we getting a "You can do whatever you want" shirt
Yeah, with a sewn in squeaker inside the poor D&D logo, so you can pat it too
Better yet, a squeaky plush
This reminded me of one of my first ever games. We had learned that the bug creatures whose hive we were invading used pheromones to see and communicate. I just so happened to have an everlasting bottle of smoke, saw some of their eggs, and decided to cram the two together to see if the resulting smoke could maybe somehow send mixed signals their way... Only for the Wizard, one of the players who had been playing since 3.5, nearly having a hissy fit cause now he couldn't see all the bugs and I was an idiot for trying that.
This video kind of made me realize that was around the point I stopped trying interesting ideas in combat and just number crunched like the rest of the party. Crazy how streamlines things get with time without anyone realizing.
WE'RE MAKING IT OUT OF DM BURNOUT WITH THIS ONE ‼‼🔥🔥🗣🗣
My take:
Telegraphing is VITAL. Try to do it *too* much.
I often will actually just show my players the (shoutout to flee mortals) monster manual for a limited amount of time dependant on a relevant skill check. My players love the mini game of trying to extract as much useful info as they can before I take the book away, simulating the stress of trying to remember your monster-slaying training mid-combat.
Furthermore, I'm not afraid to discuss the power of monsters/npcs in game terms.
"This is a CR 23 Dragon" "He's like a level 11 paladin" "This enemy has a +10 stealth score and seventh level spells"
You may think that this mechanic-speak unpleasantly reminds players they are playing a game (and you may be right), but I've found the opposite to occur. Using mechanical terms in world description seems to fold the rules into the shared fiction and make things like character stats feel like real things instead of game mechanics.
All this telegraphing makes players feel much better when I obliterate them with disintegration when they're level 6, as they knew the risks and nevertheless chose to be heroic. To go against incredible odds.
This doesn't mean there aren't secrets though. No matter how much of the enemies toolbox I reveal, *how* the enemy will use that toolbox is always a surprise.
You knew the dragon's lair was on a mountains edge. You could have guessed that a dragon's strength can easily grapple you. Glad you're a druid because you'll need a fly speed to avoid 20d6 falling damage 😂
Prepare for throwaway joke characters on their end
@@nolader28There have been 9 PCs in my game and 2 deaths (7 living PCs) in a year's worth of play my guy
what do you mean, remind them they're playing a game? that's what they showed up to do.
I totally agree with this.
trying to do things. subtly in these games doesn't work very easily.
saying the dragon is super sneaky is so vague. The characters would be able to look at a thing and they can pick up on the subtleties of why it would be sneaky. coming up with words to describe why he looks that way is tough. and what's tougher is having your players pick up on those descriptions and translate them to the characters. just being direct is the way to go!
it's the same with all aspects of the game I think. If you're trying to RP out a conversation with someone in the King's throne room or in the tavern, everyone might get wrapped up in the RP and the actual conversation. but what happens? oftentimes is they miss the actual point or the small details that were important. So have your fun with the RP and acting out the conversation. but a simple straightforward recap helps keep everyone on the same page
@@monkeySkulls💯
Let. Him. COOK
0:05 no, I just wing it
Real
Yeah combat as war is where the strengths of TTRPGs as a medium really shine imo. If I wanted combat as sport I'd probably just go play one of the hundreds of games I have of Steam instead, because TTRPG combat can just never match the juice of video games anyway. If I'm playing TTRPGs it's to get the one thing they can do, that video games can't ever hope to do. It's for the schenanigans.
Nowadays I pretty much only balance encounters if I force those encounters on my players, usually because that encounter serves some kind of purpose in the story, for example the first encounter of a new campaign arc, where I do a bunch of exposition. In that sense it's nice to have (...working) encounter balance tools, but at the same time, if I didn't have those I'd probably just do the exposition in a non-combat encounter and that'd be perfectly fine.
Thank you for saying this. I always feel the same way. If I want a perfectly formulated, tactical encounter, I'll play a video game that handles all the numbers for me. If I'm going to play a TTRPG, I'm going to need to lean into the strengths of the medium: character interaction, narrative flexibility, and creative problem-solving!
>purpose in the story
it's a game, not a story. you're a referee, not an author.
@@mrosskne
You can be both… people play games for the story, particularly tabletop games
@@GnarledStaff The story is whatever the players do. You're not an author.
@@mrosskne you're the one throwing stuff at your players, so, you're just as much the author as they are. It's a group effort.
Baldur's Gate 3 may give players unrealistic expectations of storytelling, voices, etc. around the gaming table, but I can't deny it's also helped spice up the imagination of what is possible within combat, especially with things like environment interactions and fleeing enemies grabbing backup.
Are there fleeing enemies anywhere in BG3? I know players can flee, but the only remotely similar thing I can think of is the hyena in Act 1 that runs away to call in some gnolls to the combat.
@@krkngd-wn6xj the fleeing goblin children too.
@Medul759 Fair point, also the tiefling refugees if you burn the grove down.
I still don't think it's a good example, cause basically all enemies just flee, or fight to the death. There isn't a fight where the last guy left won't still bumrush the 4 people who just killed his 10 allies.
@@Medul759also in the goblin camp if you don't destroy the war drums the goblins will use them to alert the other goblins.
I've always had the monsters "live where they live" and if the pcs stumble into the wrong area, so be it. This has gotten me some nasty looks and side eyes but usually it works out.
After all, fleeing is always an option and sometimes the pcs even suprise me by handling the problem without issue.
I have spent waaaay too much time gathering maps on a flash drive that is bursting at the seams so that most of my maps have adjoining maps as well. Combat can always be shifted to another area should the pcs so choose. It's a little clunky at times but we have made it work.
Another banger of a video Deficient Master. My favorite D&D channel by far.
The problem is that fleeing is not always an option unless you as the DM make sure of it. If a monster has abilities that paralyze, stun, restrain, etc or even just sufficiently ranged attacks, retreating can quickly become impossible.
@@Specter_1125 well I guess I should have been more clear with my statement. Fleeing is always possible for SOMEONE in the party. A froghemoth is positioned in the swamp that my level 5 pcs are exploring. Chances are good that they will encounter it. Not a certainty but a good chance. If someone is swallowed and another grappled then at least two of them can run. Lol
@@Specter_1125you don't need to run faster than the monster, you just need to run faster than your friends
It's like you've read my mind.
I was planning a Westmarch campaign of sorts, where players stay at one big camp (but they can create outposts as they progress) and in this camp they take missions. Missions like "collect info on X" or "get an item\items that are of significant value to the camp" or "eliminate a threat", etc. And every time I've thought about combat, I came to conclusion that players should either be given an opportunity to create a combat scenario, aka initiate combat on their terms, or be given enough object to have meaningful interaction with to make the challenge easier. The Piano, for example.
They can always take the route of lobotomized barbarian, if they want to, but they should have an option to take otherwise uphill battle and recreate "call the ambulance but not for me" meme.
Love your content. Thank you.
And the GM's chest looks neat. Thanks for the info on that.
My players just initiated a combat with a Wendigo that I've made to be invulnerable unless you precede attacks with fire or trick it into hurting itself. They had clues that hinted at these things and they'll have to figure it out or...*shrug*
Hmmm I wonder who this could be
@@SBEEVEE Probably not who you suspect.
The store manager of a Wendy’s?
@@KangarooKommando You caught me! Get this man a Frosty.
Clues =/= informed. No matter how good you think a clue is. It's not enough many times. Because people are buss with their own rp and how their character understands the world. I let my character die way before i would use meta knowledge to survive. Just make sure they understand that things aint working
3:07 There is one problem with this setup: You can't have *one* ogre magi, because "magi" is plural.
What's the singular?
@@FelicityUwUmage.
@@Gouka07 I should have known that lol. Thank you very much.
@@FelicityUwU all good, language is not always intuitive. :)
they are a plural system with OSDD1b, it means they can cast 3 spells at once. see compartmentalized minds in GURPS.
I recommend "Muster: a Primer for War" as the best book on Combat as War i've seen.
This feels like the difference between Fallout 3's "everything scales to your level" philosophy vs. New Vegas's "if you go there before you're meant to it will hurt a lot" kind of philosophy to designing worlds.
It makes a lot of sense that sometimes players bumbling through a D&D campaign would find themselves in unwinnable situations possibly more often than not if they're careless and so should learn to use their brains as well as the systems other than combat to navigate those situations.
Another awesome video! I too dislike CR math, and prefer a gut-reaction guess instead. If the fight is too easy, bad guy reinforcements show up. Too hard, and the bad guys get reckless and take chances that give the PCs an option.
I'll have to check out some of those videos on DM burnout. The one you showed looks familiar... Maybe you should do a collab or something. I'll sign the petition requesting an audience.
The boss guarding the Hoard of the Dragon Queen feels like a prank by the author of that adventure. It's challenge rating is too high for the players to handle, and it's too powerful even for its challenge rating. And it inexplicably has the ability to pursue the players through 5 foot wide tunnels despite being Huge.
I never realised how much I fought like war until this video. I use morale I just use a wisdom save from individuals rather than as a group so some soldiers might flee while some might dig in their heels and prepare to die
That's genius. I'm stealing it. 🙂
Although I will say, this would only be able to work in a situation where people are fighting to the death. Bandits would probably be stupid not to run if their ambush failed. But a bunch of green soldiers fighting for an evil baron would absolutely have to choose between standing their ground and breaking ranks.
At times you gotta weigh thing in evenly, you give them a combat that makes their level 10 characters look so badass shredding through level 3-5 infantry fighters, and then give them an immediate turning of tables with the captain being a level 13 hexblade
d&d is so boring
@@mrosskne Do you mean dnd as in a particular system or as in every ttrpg ever?
Your editing style SEEMS like it’s clickbaity and attention-grabby and all fluff, but you clearly have a genuine passion, really good advice and techniques, and a respect for your viewer’s time and intelligence.
You have a very interesting way of communicating, and my ADHD brain loves the everloving shit out of it.
Well said. His videos are very well paced, and comedically dramatic in attention-grabbing bits, but his opinions are never overstated for clickbait. Absolute gold.
Your videos are great as always, I had no idea I had been running combats as "war" since I started running 3.5 fifteen years back, I always hated challenge ratings and preferred HD to tell me how strong a monster was, after all a players level is just their HD. Other GMs would scoff at my methods but the players loved it so I just shrugged I think the big reason I liked monsters that were stronger than the party was my first ever module I read and got me into GMing was Caves of Chaos and the fact it just left the players to figure out what murder hole to walk into with a bit of nudging from the GM still sticks with me as one of my favorites, along with the various rumors, if your first module was COC it incorporated so many dirty tactics, the "kind healer" is actually a cultist who casts cause wounds on someone in a critical moment, the goblins yell for help but one of the rumors you get is misinfo that it means surrender then suddenly an ogre comes barreling at your first level party, the caves have a "maiden" who if you help her is actually a medusa who turns you to stone, along with other little tid bits, if it weren't for that module along with other OSR modules I don't think i'd of cared for ttrpgs as those older modules really felt like you were a dungeon delver in a living breathing fantasy world where death was around every corner.
Love your videos and insights, the TTRPG crowd definitely needs more of your content as it goes against the grain so to speak of the same almost "agreed" upon way of playing the game that the typical modern crowd seems to of adopted. I especially love that even with your takes you keep the most important rule in mind, "The best answer is what YOU and your players agree on is best" where a lot of YTers really feel like they try to hijack your table to indoctrinate you into "their" way of playing rather than just giving advice, where as yours comes off as genuine advice which I enjoy.
Pathfinder 2e's level system works almost flawlessly for a formula, especially compared to the CR DND 5e
Pf2e even offers XP for avoiding combats, and gets rid of the pesky rule in 5e where everything has Attack of Opportunity which basically ruins any morale system because Disengage + Move is always countered by Move + Attack. In Pf2e movement costs the same as an attack so make 3 moves and then the enemy can't hurt you (with a melee attack)
Yeah this problem vanishes completely once you switch to a system that like D&D 4e or PF2e that’s built from the ground up to support Combat as Sport.
It’s not the play style that’s contributing to burnout. It’s the fact that you’re using the wrong system for your style of play.
5e ain’t balanced at all and you can’t play it in a way that expects it to be balanced.
Having gm'd Pf 2e for a year, there are some flaws but they are rather minuscule:
-In the first 2~3 levels, PL +3 creatures are absolutely capable of causing a TPK because of lack of abilities and resources of the players part. OTOH, at higher levels, PL +4 creatures are much more manageable, no longer being a 50/50 on a TPK
-Some creatures, like Lesser Deaths, dragons and some fiends are comparatively stronger than others creatures of the same level, so they should be reserved to boss fights as having more than one on the battle may make the combat more difficult than it needs to be
-At lower levels, creatures saves are rather high for spellcasters, specially if they are PL +
But even then I would say Pathfinder has one of the best encounter building balancing I have ever seen
I just wanted to say that your channel has been truly indispensable to my growing as a GM. I have watched so many GMing channels and I couldn't help but feel like a lot of them lack the very necessary practical advice and tend to focus on the theory crafting while hoping not to step on the viewer's toes. No shade to them at all, there are reasons for it, which are legit; just not great for establishing good fundamentals and a distinct idea of best practices.
I have struggled so hard in my campaigns to know where my efforts should lie and how much. I am the kind of person who will know what I need but not know what I don't need. I think that burns me out the most. Your videos, in their elegance and decisiveness, really help me understand a better framework. It also helps that the package in which you deliver this advice is so well designed and amazingly structured that it really establishing an ethos I can trust, instead of feeling like another talking head video. Thank you for all the effort you put into these. Videos like this really should rise to the top!
Be aware that this guy is pitching a specific way of playing a game.
Which can be fun
But a lot of people like very different ways of playing.
Many of his rules don't apply if you wanna play high level dnd where heroes get more and more powerful and fight bigger and bigger enemies
@@davidsantos1299 I'm aware. Honestly his advice feels best outside of DnD a lot of the time. Additionally, for the most part, most people aren't getting to those really high levels of play. I would even argue that with DnD (specifically 5e) the higher levels are broken and you are playing a different kind of game entirely at that point.
But I would also argue that his advice is helpful because he is going after a specific way of gaming. As such, he can make definitive statements that will help people find ways that they want to play their games. They can experiment with it and find out if they like it. Where my problem with a lot of talking heads is they don't talk about definitive GM styles at all in this way. It gets difficult to find anything applicable.
So, how many 5e Dungeon Master's Guides have you gone through since starting RUclips?
Yes.
Forget all the other, bigger channels, your channel is single handedly helping me improve my GM'ing skills as a whole more than any book or creator, please don't stop making such fantastic content!
Great video. This is really good advice, however running your game like a 'war' is MUCH more advanced technique.
I will say, I am happy you spoke about that give and take with encounter balance too. That the GM should enable the players to end encounters in cool and creative ways.
I'm all for this style of running combat, but how would you be handling maps then? Do we use theater of the mind, or do we scale our maps to allow for more space and rooms on one battlemap?
This technique doesn’t necessarily mean every fight is going to be loaded with enemies. It just means the *fiction* dictates exactly how many opponents there will be, not what the rules tell us about challenge rating.
If you’re fighting in a small room, there naturally won’t be that many people that can fit in it. If you’re fighting in a large room, perhaps it makes sense in the fiction that there’s more enemies in there.
The paradigm shift is that instead of changing our fiction to suit the combat, we make the combat suit the existing fiction.
i started getting a similar idea just from playing Baldur's Gate 3. the tactics used by enemies in that game are totally different to what i've always seen played out in tabletops. it's like guerilla warfare lite, popping out of cover to shoot before ducking behind cover again, climbing up ladders and running across precipices to get high ground bonuses while keeping themselves far enough away that you have to dash two turns in a row just to get in range... it's genuinely annoying but feels realistic.
I remember my VERY FIRST time trying to make encounters for a campaign, looking through that CR formula, trying to make it "dangerous, but not TOO dangerous" especially considering that I think there are some inherent flaws with the table's ability to properly assess how difficult an encounter would be, and while it was fun to try playing around with the first couple of encounters, if only for the experimentation of throwing in a different CR and seeing how it would change the difficulty, it didn't take too long for me to just go "Fuck this." I feel that the important thing is setting up the scene well enough that your players should be able to assess the danger for themselves and act on that. Very good video.
Also, can I just say, I think you have some of the best editing I've seen from the RPG RUclips community.
You are right on point. I have been playing D&D since 1980 and I remember, [I still have mine], the Monster Manuel having Morale for almost every monster as well as a bunch of other useful information such as organization [how monsters can form groups], Where they live how they fight and so on. It was so much more dangerous but interesting as well. Today I stick with Pathfinder 1e and still use [homebrew which I hate to call it because they were the original rules in the first place.], these rules for my games as well. Rock on!!
I forgot to give you aspiring DM's the Morale Ratings, they were: 2-4 Unreliable, 5-7 Unsteady, 8-10 Average, 11-12 Steady, 13-14 Elite, 15-16 Champion, 17-18 Fanatic, 19-20 Fearless. You would pick a number not a range, if they rolled that number or higher, that particular group broke. So if you have 6 Goblins Morale 10 and 6 Hobgoblins Morale 12 and rolled an 11. The Goblins would run for the hills but the Hobgoblins would still fight. Hope this helps.
I’m definitely gonna try to implement this in my game!
Another thing I’m thinking of adding in to encourage creativity is to redo ‘action’ and ‘bonus action’ into ‘primary action’ and ‘secondary action.’
While I won’t be going as loose as I hear Pathfinder does, I’m thinking any nonattack action can be secondary, with some penalties where appropriate.
For example, I’m thinking a player would be able to primary action dodge, weaving around their opponent while they secondary action pickpocket a file from their opponents pocket, perhaps at disadvantage as they move around. Or the opposite; primary action pickpocket and dodge as a secondary action, granting them a temporary +2 to AC or something.
I’m literally writing this down as I think of it, so there are sure to be a ton of potential problems.
Haha! My son was balking because you threw your book at the end of the video Deficient 😂 Another great one! Looking forward to your book “The Deficient Art of War”.
Life is not balanced. It is perfectly acceptable to run away when outmatched.
Im sick with a fever but this video made my day!
i remember a new player i had. Made a character, named "Gruver". Was pretty agile and skilfull, regular ranger.
He did not know how to play, so first encounter, he asked the DM "What can i do?" the dm said. "You face this situacion, how would you turn the tables and fight?"
End of the campain, he hasn't shot more that half a docen arrows, and his "hemp rope" has so many kills it would make a gallows rope blush.
Since then, my friend group coined the term "Gruver Tactics" for your "War combat" style of game
so what did he do?
@@mrosskne I'm morbidly curious, too.
Oh no explaining exactly what he did with that rope is horrifying
yep, this never happened
Was his first name Mac? As in MacGruver!?!
5e combat is easy. Make every encounter Deadly rating. It is the only way to make fun encounters. Anything less that Deadly the players will breeze through because 5e CR system sucks goat balls.
The 5e CR System actually *works* if you run Adventuring Days and don't just let PCs take a Long Rest whenever they've burned a few spell slots or lost a little HP.
The reason why encounters are so "easy" for most players is because they're allowed to go supernova in every encounter. 5e was built around attrition, you've gotta whittle down the players expendable resources. If they go supernova in the very first encounter, they've got nothing left for the rest of the day, and suddenly encounters are much more difficult.
I'm not even just talking about combat encounters either. A good puzzle, trap, exploration or even social encounter can use up those expendable resources.
Oh no, it's a 25ft wide, fast flowing river, and the bridge has been destroyed, what do you do? The strong ones might successfully jump it. The weaklings might need to cast Jump, Fly, Misty Step, etc. Maybe a strong one doesn't make it, and now they've been swept downstream and crashed into some rocks. Take some damage, try to get out of the river. Fail again? More damage. Maybe the weakling caster has a spell that can Levitate the Fighter out of the water. There goes another spell slot.
The point is, 5e combat is only easy if players go into each one fully rested and without having used any resources. Make the players use those resources, prevent the players from taking a rest whenever they want, your encounters (combat or otherwise) will be a lot more challenging and rewarding, and the CR system will make a lot more sense!
A way to alleviate that would be time tracking. As tedious as it sounds, the more I read up on it, the more it affects gameplay. Can’t take all those long rests if you know the village will be destroyed in a few days.
Don't put a low level party against a deadly encounter with shadows
CR is operating under the assumption that your players are getting into like 15 fights before a long rest
This is terrible advice. It is objectively true that it is fun to pop off. Deadly encounters are great, but making every encounter hard as hell for the sake of it isnt for everyone
Just last night I "paused" a combat with a Zombie Beholder & his minions to remind the players that they didn't HAVE to let this combat be a slog to the death. Their goal in the abandoned library was to find a few specific magical scrolls, and didn't necessarily have to kill the Beholder to get those scrolls & gtfo.
Your content is amazing and your editing style is so entertaining. More people need to check your stuff out. Keep doing what you do I enjoy your videos so much man
Oh, just one more thing. It's funny you show Torchbearer. I really lik the system "in vacuum" and I take little bits of it but deemed it too crunchy for a regular group. I wonder why there isn't the 2nd edition on the table. Hmm. Par from cosplaying Colombo: maybe an idea for a video of "Cool mechanics from systems other than d&d" ?
Thanks a lot! I've been trying to get my encounters balanced with CR but it's nearly impossible to get it quite right. I just have to find out how to give out enough information about the "combat field" without being too obvious. And morale checks! How the fudge did I forget about those?!
I’ve been changing how I GM after yeaaaars of feeling frustrated after putting in so much time and combats just not being fun (despite using all the advice I can about balancing in the moment), and funnily enough I just talked to my GM and found he uses this exact idea. This video just confirmed that I need to change how I prep, and I’ll be talking to my players soon about giving “combat as war” a try, thank you!
The more I see these balance videos, the more I appreciate that in the original D&D cartoon, one of the first encounters the party faces is TIAMAT. And what do they do? The logical thing. They RUN! I'm beginning to think that discretion being the greater part of valor is all but lost to modern D&D's obsession with "balance" in a game that quite frankly (and as this video also points out) is poorly designed to facilitate such an equilibrium.
2:36 This here is why I never ever prep battle matts. When somebody attacks somebody the whiteboard and markers come out. I don't assume that you fight is going to happen anywhere ahead of time.
I’m commenting on this video to let you know I check your page to make sure I didn’t miss a new video that got buried. Love this stuff, especially the way you present it.
Most of the other channels I can just put on in the background while I do stuff. This channel’s videos makes me pause them until I can use my eyeballs.
And later that night once the kids are in bed, I light some candles, make a bubble bath, and pour a beer.
*sigh*
I would love to watch one of your D&D sessions. So far, every video is really entertaining and I'm even learning something new.
Awesome video once again! And awesome tip, I'll look in to the morale rule as well
My most memorable D&D game was a one shot at Gencon.
We were sent to kill a dragon but the initial cave had a single room and darkness that blocked all vision up to 2 feet. Since it was meant to be a quick one shot, the DM said we could have any spells our class could have prepared.
My cleric could have dispell major magic. So i removed the darkness and learned we were going to walk into a 10 foot sheer drop into a thick black liquid.
So we exited the cave and the wizard launched a fire ball into the liquid. We then rested for 8 hours for our spellslots to come back.
The DM and dragon was surprised when we attacked it with 15 kobald zombies that it's fear effect wouldn't work in.
the best encounter I ever DMd in 10 years was a party of lvl 1 PCs versus three times the recommended number of gnolls and an EFFING TROLL, but then also telling them "anything goes, I'll rule everything in your favor within reason" and they proceded to spend everything they had on the gnolls, dig a pit for the troll (they knew it was coming), luring it into it, since it's stupid, and dropping a crapton of alchemist fires on it. It was glorious.
Dude, I think you just might be the Best, RUclipsr, Ever.
So there i am. PCs trapped between two gates and npcs telling them to bug off. PC Mage tried charming, mishaps and causes veil of darkness. PCs decide to break IN thru makeshift gate before boiling water gets poured down on them. I bust out makeshift terrain pieces. Few minis, this isn’t a big city, just few villagers that were at ready with undead workers at their command. It almost turns ugly but sniping the mayor, a show of force and a spell that causes entangled speech breaks the villagers. Undeads are unaffected and clumsily try to follow last command. Party piles up on flimsy tower and it collapses. All in all PCs few mercenaries gather the paniced horses and make their retreat after unlocking the main gate.
I had no map, just a terrain platform from professor dungeon master, handful of minis, 4 led candles to use as towers of the gate, and quickly picked statblocks that were appropriate for undead and villagers.
Took about 45min in total, there were stakes and there will be consequences.
First time seeing one of your videos! Incredibly entertaining. Looking forward to watching through the rest of your stuff!
This. All of this.
I started really becoming a DM in a Star Wars SAGA Edition campaign, the whole premise of the galaxy is an unfair conflict. I literally only use the CR system to eyeball what enemy "tier" I can use, but 12 stormtroopers using Aid Another will be just as dangerous as an AT-ST.
So far, my players (seem to) love it. Applying the same idea to D&D is taking me some time, but so far great.
This is the morrowind vs skyrim philosophy:
Morrowind: go to the right place immediately and you'll find an ebony blade to steal, period. Go to the wrong place and that beastis gonna crush you.
Skyrim: perfectly balanced loot and leveled mobs. This is boring
I know this is a video about DnD5e, but just since Pathfinder was mentioned : encounter balancing is actually quite good and relatively easy for GM's in Pathfinder2e. It's a solid start for any newcomers to just grab the XP budget table and use it straight away. Ofcourse it's not perfect and with experience GM's might notice that some encounters are harder than others as there's few monsters that might be a little bit overtuned for their level, but those are far and between. Overall PF2e has reliable balance thresholds that usually work pretty well all the way to level 20 the majority of the cases.
Epic video! I’m gonna have to implement some of the morale stuff into my campaign. I have 7 level 9 players in my campaign so figuring out how to make combat better really helps 😂
Notes
Don’t balance based on challenge rating
Telegraph more dangerous threats
Give the players options and information
Try using Morale, a rule where opponents will run/surrender if you role above their morale score (the score will be 2-12, roll 2d6 whenever the first enemy goes down, or half the opposition is killed)
oh my god the metaphor of combat as sport vs combat as war is so fucking amazing and really highlights the problems i have with so many modern games. so many modern games are purely a matter of numbers and skill, never ingenuity or creativity which is what makes combat so satisfying in the few games that have it.
being able to manipulate your environment to your advantage, or even your enemies manipulating it to theirs, is a crucial aspect of good combat
I have a story about one player in two groups (yep, two groups in one world with same players, that live parralel in world). 1 group monk and warlock got to underwater against fishmans (context, this is not their firs fight and barbarial already used an electric sword underwater, so they know, how it works). Encounter was easy, they can just stat kill fishmans, buuuuuuuuut monk made an electric strike... to be fair, he made more damage to enemies, but in the end monk and lock got their coffins with mvp damage from monk. Second group got into caves with rotting earth as floor, seil and walls. They were stable enough for usual combat but not for explosions and quakes. This time eldrich warrior used... I don't remember spell name, but 1d8 damage, agility save, 10ft radius, 1 level, it is quake, that can knockdown enemies... Quake. He buried half of the enemies, loot, and group, but everyone survived somehow. 2 type of combat is hella fun
Excellent video as always, i'm definitely gonna try to add that morale system to combat. Btw, where did you get that torchbearer book? looks so good
The things you say in these videos have made me realize what Im doing wrong as a DM, and I am happy that I can now start improving thanks man :)
Newbie DM here, and last week's session I tried a more combat as war style scenario, without knowing I was doing that tbh. And after the session, I received a feedback from my players (all newbies too) that they loved that combat because they thought they could really die. I guess I'm doing something right lol. Thanks for your content it really helps a lot.
That “War” analogy describes every encounter, even the “peaceful” ones XD.
A goblin attack on a village was genuinely war in a game and it was great, the game master didn't choose something that would be easy or challenging to beat, they chose a suitable population for the ferral goblin hoard based on in story information set up strategy, ambush, hidden opponents etc, and to try defending the village it was treated as war, burning some of the near by forest so the goblins would have less cover, making explosives. at 1 point an earth elemental tried to crush the building civilians were hiding in who couldn't fight, so I went off a technicality of the upper limits of a telekinetic spell to start bowling down goblins, the dice for such damage decided on the fly.
another fight was in a dungeon, as in actual stone under ground and the walls fully became suggestions with all the blasting through them, architecture checks to avoid caving in the roof.
As a PF2e GM, do not do this without certain caveats. I love this idea. It's a great idea. BUT, in PF2e, the math is so specific that if they actually get into blows with enemies that are +4 levels or higher than the party level, they'll almost certainly not survive long enough to even run away.
Indeed. PF2e is one of the only combat as sport ttrpgs that actually work. Especially in the realm of d20.
And good news is you can totally go old school with it by allowing players to sneak, diplomat, sabotage encounters and having most fights be severe or harder.
Always played like this... probably because dnd wasnt my first TTrpg. So i describe Situations, and the Players try to solve it. Last time they got an advantage by allying with pretty much any other faction on the Island, paying the Dragon to join, riding him over the Enemy and using a makeshift Bomb to destroy the BBeG. And it worked. I am a first Time DM, and the Players are first Time Players. However some balanced Fights happens too. And im pretty good at it. (i think)
Man I wish I could play for you, I don't doubt that your games are awesome.
Don't ever stop making videos.
Had to pause the video 2:30 in to say this - the editing on all those visuals is fricking top notch. Slapping the book on the circles and then slapping the charactersheet ontop of the battlemap looks so fucking smooth. I am genuinely amazed.
From someone who came from a LARPing background I found it remarkably easy to start pushing those paper buttons, such an easy trap to fall into. Describing combat this way feels more like bringing my LARP to the table and thats exactly what I want.
I love your energy. Amazing content and original delivery. Good job 🙂.
Excellent way to illustrate this philosophy. Colville is with us in this ship too. I have another trick I use on lower level parties to dial damage up or down ahead of time without all that math and cr and stuff. I take whoever has the lowest HP max and ask my self "Is this a fight we'll be ok TPKing to? If no, is it one that should still be pretty hard or is this just an aside?" Depending on the answer my mobs will have one shot on crit damage, or 2 or 3 shot. And magic and all that other stuff, that's just extra. Once they're well past a certain level and I'm comfortable with how tough and smart they are I stop doing that outside of big bosses that really should be able to one-shot you.
So if you wizard has 20 hps at max, your mob will do either more than 20 hp damage on a max roll crit or less depending on what level of danger you want.
I personally tend more to the "Battle as War" kind of perspective, but sometimes I go the extra mile and just skip the use of dice or enclosed "rules" altogether, opting for a more cinematic choice based combat. Usually when I want a REALLY fast-paced combat or the PCs are way above the power level of their enemies, using numbers and turns and stuff can really drag combat too long for it to be enjoyable, and it may also disrupt the flow of outside-of-combat events. So instead, I treat those battles as sort of "Quick-time events" in videogames, where I will present the situation as DM, ask for reactions, and decide by myself (with feedback from players) what would be the most coherent result, using it as a starting point before allowing said player to finish describing the rest of their turn.
The caveat with this method is that it'll mostly always assume that the players are successful on the simpler actions, or will reduce the amount of dice rolling significantly, which in turn shift the game from a luck-based experience towards a more "power fantasy" kind of experience. Both me and my players like that, so it's not a problem for us, but if I'd want to put them on a tight spot, or provide with a serious challenge with higher risks and stakes, Id' have to step back towards the classic combat system, so that's usually what I'll do for example for a boss battle.
I figure any game that has Immovable Steel Rods, bottomless bags and that's powered by IMAGINATION makes balance a meek concept.
My group has tormented our DM, as, in an odd way of things, while he has mostly played with combat as sport…. We have gradually started to play combat as war. Luckily our DM has tell it in stride, and has led to funny moments, such as, us scrounging for resources on a ship to break free, resulting in us managing to sieze the ship we were held captive on, (and then interrogate our captors on why they captured us, who they worked for, etc.)
Or the time we shot down the missile that was targeting our shuttle in an ME5e campaign. Which led to us catapulting some high explosives that he gave us a few sessions ago, into the ceiling of a tower, into the boss room, which we then slammed the shuttle filled with MORE high explosives, into the boss, diving out onto the roof so that the big bad was killed offscreen. It was a blast, the DM took it in stride, and it was perhaps the best campaign finale I’ve ever had. He of course did animation work and everything for the ending, even mixing voiceovers with music. So yeah, personally, I do prefer combat as war
One source for thinking in terms of Combat as War is, the Art of War, commonly attributed to Sun Tzu. Loads of videos cover the contents. It's all about the Common Sense rules that you might think about, or not have thought about.
One such rule of the Art of War is "Never Split the Party." Or put from the other's perspective: "Always split the opponent's party." Or, as Julius Caesar put it, "Divide and Conquer". If you like more of such suggestions, again, look up Art of War.
There are games with *great* encounter rules that really do create balanced encounters that are still really fun. These are encounters that ask players to leverage their strategy (preparation) and tactics (round-by-round actions) to accumulate advantages against the GM's side of the board and win out. It's a real and valid style of play, and certainly not "boring", especially for the players that prefer it. My home group for example has tried both war-style and sport-style games and infinitely prefers the less loosey goosey sport-style games. Basically, know your players. Don't expect combat as war to be a silver bullet for your table.
I love this concept so much, but I have aphantasia (no mental image) so generally struggle without a battle map, but I have found that using really simple and easily editable maps that exist to facilitate the numbers of dnd (paladin auras, etc.) and leave the more creative set dressing ideas to the players and dm can sort of combine the best of both worlds!
This is somehow I 'TRY' to add as many as I can and yet some players are fight straight-ahead and losing to dice miserably. Then making a beggin for mercy face. Imagine a Bard who only use vicious mockery and end the day with a full unused slots.
One Issue: There are too many rules in 5e. Tried as a player to treat combat as war in a prewritten adventure (either from Saltmarsh or Yawning Portal). Set up a hallway with barrels of oil to burn the zombies as they enter... but 7-10 hd zombies vs 5 dmg a round did very little, and I should have just pressed my papper button of sneak attack. So this is very much on the DM, and honestly a reason to seek third party games (DMs that prefer rulings like rules-lite systems)
Best DnD person on youtube! You're one of the few creators who's videos are an instant watch for me. The tips in your videos are always short, dense, and easy to use (just like me).
I agree with this 100% and I use morale in my own game but I think newer GMs need to understand the dynamics of player/monster dynamics through game balance. Boring as that may be. Then you can learn how to add levers outside combat that can be used to swing things in their favor.
Oh yes! I haven’t been using the morale tule as it is, but my players LOVE to purposefully intimidate enemies into running away, which has a similar effect. Enemies often end up running away to be faced down later, going to get help, or being taken prisoner.
Oh my brother TESTIFY! This video is pure gold. Bonus XP for the OSE and ICRPG books. 🧙♂️
Critical role did a group with 7 level 12 chars fight with a level 20 war general with experience on the group. That was by far the most impressive combat ever done by them, and was much more interesting than the basic 1 or 2 level differences that I've seen/participated.
If I did use a piano as a weapon vs a goblin. I would ask the bard to inspire us in a key of G Flat.
4:39 "...problems, not solutions..."
There's a doctrine that states that opponents need to provide "dilemmas" and not "problems"
A problem can have many discreet solutions, and you are never going to be able to account for all of them, and if they come up with one that you didn't consider, that can give them an advantage.
A dilemma is forcing a decision between two options- usually in terms of costs or other things that aren't easily quantified. It increases their cognitive load and forces them to make slower decisions.
And while players aren't enemies, increasing their load by forcing them to make a decision instead of come up with a solution is a great way to trick them into thinking they're brilliant and having fun playing with you; Coming up to the solution to a frustrating puzzle is almost always a letdown, but putting them in the spot where they have to solve a puzzle by sacrificing something they care about is DRAMATIC (See Dark Knight where Batman has to save Harvey Dent or his girlfriend, Rachael Dawes)
YET AGAIN, an amazing video that goes directly into things i needed. You reading my mind?!? Thanks Deficient Master!!!!
depends which version of PF you are talking about. I do think that PF2e level work fine most of the time.
My combats were always "War" and categorized as Hard/DEADLY by the Algorithm. They were super fun and my players always overcame these CR levels that the book said be very challenging to so. They used environment and their resources to make the combat more even.
I have the wing-it mindset. Too weak? Add an attack. Standing in one place? Shadow teleport. Or, the ruckus drew others in.