Why Steve Ditko Quit
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- Опубликовано: 14 июл 2018
- This episode of Comic Tropes takes a look at Steve Ditko's comic book work and history. Ditko was an ardent follower of Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism. By looking at how seriously he took his beliefs, we can put his career in context and understand which projects he decided to work on and which ones, like Spider-Man, that he'd walk away from even though they were successful. Stan Lee has said some things but Ditko never gave as many public interviews. Nevertheless, he did grant a few rare interviews and wrote many essays in his self-published comics like Mr. A, so those are shared so that we hear about his history in his own words.
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Развлечения
Correction: I pulled an image of comic book artist Jack Cole (Plastic Man) that was labeled as Steve Ditko. I should have caught it, but it's in there. Oops.
Jack Cole is perfect for your humorous show.
No problem. Doesn't detract from the awesome video. Keep up the great work!
I was wondering why Jack's picture was there. There are several pictures of him back in the day, but I wonder if any photos of Steve will emerge now that he's passed away. The reporter in this article says he looked like Uncle Junior from Sopranos. www.vulture.com/2016/11/steve-ditko-doctor-strange-c-v-r.html
I think you summed up everything really well. In the future it would be cool if Steve's actual picture was there.
Issue #85. GL/GA discover that Arrow's partner, Speedy (Roy Harper) is doing drugs. More info here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowbirds_Don%27t_Fly
Oh my, yes, it's childish to believe in an objective reality, the value of rationality, or in individual rights and liberties. The stuff of 12-year-old comic book readers' fantasies, I'm sure.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)
But I certainly agree that people should bear responsibility for the ideas they believe in, and the consequences of those ideas.
Stan: With great power comes great responsibility
Steve: Wait, what now?
The concept of "with great power comes great responsibility" doesnt really conflict with objectivism. Mr A still took it upon himself to fight evil doers and save the innocent despite it not really benefiting him, even putting his life at risk to do so. He had the physical/mental ability to do it plus he had the strong moral compass to guide him, and felt the responsibility to act stem from that.
@@dannyboy5008 I see you made some comments explaining the ideas or Steve ditko and that is appreciated. But the disagreement is obvious. Spiderman is the kind of character that needs to use all of his power to serve the greater good. That means he has to remove himself of any personal stances and principles. His only principle should be (after he learns his lesson) to save and protect people. Mr A seems to me like a character that values his principles and ideals above all making him someone that doesn't struggle with morality at all (which is not all that relatable). So the dispute imo makes perfect sense and for me it's obvious that spidey needed to be what he eventually continued to be (after ditko left).
@@stam7250 struggling with morality makes you relatable? I think those are a very poor choice of words as they’re often used to justify “mistakes”.
@@pn2294 Moral grey areas are pretty common in the real world and make for good stories. Like what do you do if someone assaults a person while drunk but are otherwise not violent? Are they evil or good?
@@PurpleColonel pointless question
What we really should be asking is, are they still a threat?
I love the irony that 3 of his creations were inspirations for several of main charaters in Watchmen, which is kind of Grey Area: the Book.
Which characters inspired which watchmen characters?
@@Lqw17 mentioned in the video is Question who inspired Rorsharch, Blue Beetle inspired Nite Owl, and Captian Atom inspired Dr Manhattan.
@@JunoAuerWatson wow that's really cool! Thanks bro!
Don't forget Mr. A! A is A! I think The Question was a toned-down version of Mr. A. While the Question was one of the Charlton properties that DC acquired, Alan Moore was very aware of Mr. A when he created Rorschach. While the Question was a rigid moralist, Mr. A was a psychotic nut. Not that Ditko thought so. Alan Moore tried to make Rorschach a villain, but he found that however evil Rorschach was, he had a noble center that Moore couldn't erase.
so true! It's almost ignorant to think that way - also, AYN RAND? GTFOH
Now everything makes sense ...for him, Stan Lee was either good or evil ...he decided evil.
... In order to make his characters interesting Stan made them imperfect, with flaws ... I can't imagine the constant confrontation between those 2 minds, so different.
They respected each other but never really clicked they at one point just didn’t talk with each other to just avoid problems. They eventually buried the hatchet decades later but never truly became what I’d call friends. Still not as bad as stan lee and Jack Kirby’s falling out.
Considering Stan Lee wouldn't give Steve any credit....uh....sorta evil.
@The Law anyone who ever thought stan was evil didn't know him or possibly never read any of his work. Although other creators made significant contributions to marvel over the years and deserve recognition none of it happens without stan.
I remain on Stan's side all the way.
@@HoorayTV21 Why would you post something so stupid, wrong, and easily disproved? Right in THS VERY VIDEO, it shows Stan telling the world that Ditko was writing Spiderman.
When you revealed Snyder is an objectivist it all clicked for me as to why his portrayal of Superman was so off. This was a fascinating study of an important figure in comics and I learned something too so a subscribe from me. Great work.
he isn't tho lol. the only reason his portrayal of Superman is "off" is bc he doesn't start out as the Blue Boy Scout from the jump, he would have had to have earned it thru the 5-film Justice League arc Snyder had planned.
@@Imetral0 Actually, he is. In fact, Snyder wanted to adapt The Fountainhead
@@DarkReflections86 he also said that Rand's ideas were dumb. just bc he wants to adapt The Fountainhead doesn't necessarily mean he's into her ideology.
@@Imetral0 More evidence that Snyder doesn't generally understand what he reads or the stories he tells. His Superman is complete shit from someone who doesn't understand how heroism works or why the S stands for "hope." He even goes for the lazy, simplistic trope of "Superman is only good because of Lois, and if she dies he's a monster," which is like a child's idea of Superman's moral compass. Then again, with Snyder's Kents as his moral foundation, I suppose Snyder's Superman never had a chance to be anything else.
That said, I'd watch a Snyder adaptation of The Fountainhead just to see how badly he misunderstands that story, too. Snyder seems like a genuinely nice person in real life, but he should leave storytelling to people who are competent at it.
@@Keldroc half your statement was filled with insults toward Snyder, who didn't write any of the Snyderverse beyond the outline. that would be David S. Goyer. hell, Chris Nolan helped Goyer out with the story for Man of Steel. your main problem is that you just keep projecting your ideal of what Superman is onto these movies that are clearly trying to do their own thing with the mythos.
I wonder what Ditko would have done if he could have created a storyline for Judge Dredd?
Justified murder, basically.
I mean probably would be Judge Dredd with better written dialogue and better story structure.
It would be the same without the tongue and cheek humor.
@@supreme-dictator-donald-tr6611 this
@@ziggystardust7001 also it's already justified cause judge dredd is a judge
The thing about "objectivism" is that it may actually work out if we have something we're CERTAIN can discover the objective truth and good in every matter. In practice people just decide what's objective, hopefully based on evidence but in morality often not. It's basically Ayn Rand going "I'm literally so smart that if we disagree I can comfortably write you off completely as wrong."
Ayn Rand’s philosophy is literally satanism and the basis of libertarianism/consumerism. If our personal happiness is our moral guide you basically have “do what thou wilt is the law of the land”. Her philosophy just eliminated the religious aspect of it. There is “objective truths” in the world and I don’t buy into post modern relativism either, but ayn rands application of objective truth to everything including morals is just downright evil. Simple things like physical reality is objectively true. The sun comes up in the morning and it’s observable…. But that’s about the end of it.
Ditko was my favourite artist when I discovered comics back in 1967 and remains so to this day. He's one of the best visual story tellers in the business, right up there with Kirby. But he really, really couldn't write. His characters talk like badly written text books - if you read Rand's books (especially Atlas Shrugged) you can see where he gets it from. His inability to appreciate what Stan Lee brought to his stories was a blindspot that, ultimately, did him no favours. Like too many people (especially nowadays) he couldn't understand the difference between balance and compromise; a good story must have balance, so that the reader can make up his own mind; towards the end, Ditko wasn't writing fiction, he was peddling propaganda. But, as I said at the start, he's still my favourite artist, and his Dr Strange will stand the test of time for as long as comics endure.
It is as if he couldn’t see his own flaws and that the world isn’t black and white
Is that any different from many other comic artists, even today?
@@dakota4384 Actually, compared to many modern writers/artists, Ditko now looks like a moderate. (And I'm only half kidding.)
That's an unfair idea honestly, he had pretty good writing even through his hard to understand worldview. Same as a guy like Niestzche.
His need to teach his readers, who he seems to consider stupid, is very grating. Very gifted visual artist, but a high school philosopher basically.
You know, the one thing I've always found an admirable trait in a writer is the ability to present people whose moral, religious, political, etc. values the writer might actively disagree with, and _still_ present them in a fair light as real characters with real personalities, instead of just treating them as weak strawmen for the author's pet characters to debunk.
Ditko seems like the complete antithesis of that.
He literally is the opposite of that.
It's kinda hilarious.
Um my dude have a look at the villians he wrote and the stories he wrote you will see he is more than capable of doing that but prefered stories where shock of shocks the good guys actually do the right thing.
The way he wrote Hawk & Dove proves you wrong. He didn't even TRY to present both sides in an equal fashion.
That's one work though.
You knocked this one out of the park, Chris.
It's hard to touch on something like Objectivist philosophy and not get bogged down in details or politics. I was ready to cringe but it was all quite well handled, light touch and apolitical. On the internet, that is a superpower for sure.
Gnarleston Gnu nothing is ever apolitical lol. I’m glad this was ComicTropes take on the subject.
I’m glad when I find out when my favorite creators appreciate some of my other favorite, but less famous, content creators. Both of y’all are fantastic; thanks for the years of consistently stellar content ❤️
Kriskazam least of all comics. Comics have an amazingly complex political history and legacy. From the patriotic ideological machine of the golden age comics to the subversive and self aware commentary of watchmen, comics have always been a mirror image of the dominant political ethos of the societies which created them. I’m glad that Chris doesn’t shy away from that important aspect of comics in his show. Trying to understand comics without understanding their ideologies is like trying to understand the Bible without knowing what Judaisms is. I.e. it’s such a core fundamental aspect of it that without knowledge of it you will never understand it fully
And not fo da first time!
I don't fully agree with Ditko or Ayn Rand's views, but I respect Ditko greatly for what he accomplished & how he accomplished it.
Wise choice
Best response somebody has given to Ditko's views so far
@@AceLM92 indeed.
I agree with him. Rand and her ideology is very misunderstood. Most people simplify it and don’t really get it.
@@christianbjorck816 how would you better explain the ideology?
Ditko sounds like how I was in high school...I'm really glad I changed.
lol Exactly
Exactly lol
@svin There are some quite types in high school.
Joking aside there clearly referring to his objectivist views when he was alive. Those ideas still resonate after he is dead. And there is a lot of people in there high school years that tend to gravitate toward this philosophy. I mean who does not want to be rational and objective like this philosophy claim to be?
Personally I find it full with contradictions and follows tend to justify after the fact there moral stances. It pretty nice to have a black and white moral compass, when you can change the compass heading at will.
(of course in Ditko stories he has the benefit of being the narrator so it easy to actually make the story fit the characters. The world change, not the character, as the video so well put it.)
@svin Wait... I was not even aware that we where debating if Ditko was a real person or not.
And that techneclly does not matter to what I brought up as it the ideas that was communicated by Ditko (psudonym or not) that I discussed. As well as how the narrator has the power to shape the story to fit whatever ideas they want to communicate.
Steve wasnt the problem at all, everyone else was and it's good he stuck to his beliefs instead of conform to what other people wanted from him. Marco Pierre White has a similar ideology of never selling is soul because other people want him to be some nice guy who is cool with everyone. It has nothing to do with high school, he was a grown man with beliefs similar to us all. Show some fucking respect.
I do love how The Question has an unmovable set of thinking, it makes him unique... and a bit crazy. Ironically, his beliefs makes him a flawed character to my eyes.
I would probably have a hard time hanging out with someone like Ditko. I'm such a "case by case" kind of person, very few things are inherently evil to my eyes.
Most people are like that, its a very convenient kind of morality you can bend every which way.
I LOVE Mysterious Suspense #1--the comic that introduced The Question! It's probably my favorite comic of all! And it's hilarious that it was published by Charlton Comics, this really 3rd rate comic book company that paid the lowest rates in the industry! You have this really complicated philosophical novel being marketed to 6 and 7 year old kids who have no idea what the hell he's talking about!
@@bigfan1041 Or perhaps it is the convenient philosophy that doesn’t force you to distinguish between shades of grey... Life is not black and white, friend.
@@bigfan1041 I think its far more convenient to rely on some arbitrary moral code determined by a man in the clouds
You have the same thoughts as me “case by case” and not everyone is inherently evil.
I loved his psychedelic and imaginative work on Doctor Strange. In fact Steve Ditko and Stan lee's Doctor Strange series was my first introduction to the character. At the age of five I would pick up that cover-less fat paperback collecting and re-read over and over. It was all so fascinating. I still read that paperback to this day. I always pick up details I missed years back. Steve Ditko's Doctor Strange was fun. Imagine my excitement when I found out a movie was being made of him in 2016. I knew way before any of my friends did. When I dressed up as him for Halloween everyone thought I was Dracula. This misconception has been cleared up by the movie.
On this point even Stan Lee was in agreement. Those Doctor Strange stories were all DItko. Stan said so in print multiple times.
"I didn't fire Ditko, I didn't. Oh hi, Mark."
Marvel DC you are tearing me apart
...I understood that reference! 🙃
ahm fedap wid dis wurold.
"what were you thinking Ditko, you could have died."
"Anyways how is your sex life?"
That moment when you realize Rorshach is actually a hilarious parody of Mr. A. I wonder if Moore was giggling to himself every time he was writing Rorshach.
@Jacob Wood Moore was aware that Question was a toned down version of Mr. A. Also, the black and white, right and wrong aspect of Rorshach where he does not believe things can be morally grey was inspired by Mr. A.
Alan Moore already is pissed because most people believe Rorshach was right and it is true, he was right
Yeah, Moore has spoken about The Question/Mr A and how completely insane they are and how hilarious he finds Ditko's bizarre convictions:
ruclips.net/video/3gwDnhMO8is/видео.html
@@savagetv6460 Sorry, but I could never accept Rorschach wasn't right. And I will NEVER, EVER accept Ozymandias was right.
To be honest all of the characters (except Nite Owl) were pretty problematic
Objectivism seems to encourage stepping over everyone around in order to satisfy yourself. It's like the justification of selfishness
Ayn Rand wrote a book called "The Virtue of Selfishness."
Theres truth to the benefits of individuality and selfishness. From the way you speak I suppose you give every penny you have to others and never consider your own well being? Objectivism is understanding that you and your closest loved ones should come first before you begin to consider others, *not* that you can *never* consider others. That's not really immoral, its moreso a realistic ordering of priorities.
@@dannyboy5008 thats not what objectivism is, youre replying to every comment trying to justify it, kinda embarassing, ayn rand was a crazy moron cultleader, youre just selfish and greedy and a loser. Get laid.
@@dannyboy5008 standing by your convictions no matter what sounds a little counterintuitive and could cause you to be selfish in a destructive and ignorant way
I have a mix feelings about objectivism one hand I like how it makes you think in a objective manner and standing your ground in your beliefs even if you didn’t win in a argument. But it makes bad view on crime and other people, because the world is not just black and white there’s a lot of grey in there. And encourage you to be selfish and a dick to people with a shortsighted world view.
Steve Ditko's art speaks for itself. His designs were revolutionary and he helped define how motion was shown in comic books. Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko are responsible for what I consider to be the finest art in comic books. Whether you agree with Ditko's views does not matter. His contributions should be recognized.
YUPPERZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz
I'd always kind of assumed Ditko was just some old hippy that Stan had found at Woodstock who he asked to draws his acid flash backs in Dr Strange.
To learn that he was a dry as boot leather objectivist (of all things) is actually fucking hilarious.
Ikr 🤣
I thought he was like a “straight man” from his face but he’s pretty different from what I thought he was like
It's actually sad that you are incapable to comprehend vivid imagination without the use of drugs.
@@Sirzhukov oh please. Ove probably got a mind that wonders more than yours.
The thing that's so weird about this is how trip accurate a lot of his illustrations are.
His artwork is truly remarkable. Shame he couldn't have worked better with other. Still co-creating (arguably creating) Spiderman will leave a legacy few can match...
ironic that his unwillingness to create grey-area characters created psychopathic anti-heroes...
@Raving Dave You don't need to kill someone to be a psychopath
None of his characters were anti heroes they were some of the finest examples of real super heroes in comics they don't bend or compromise in the pursuit of justice and they give these villians exactly what they have earned.
@@michaelkeha nah they're pretty wack tbh. Mr A is a terrifying psycho, and Ditkos writing gives off a weird detached vibe. I'll be honest, I'm glad he didn't get a stranglehold on writing Spiderman because the character never would have been as popular with Ditko at the helm.
Why are there so many objectivism-defenders (who all appear to have a loose-at-best grasp on punctuation to varying degrees) in the replies to comments on this video? Did some particularly objectivist RUclipsr direct their fans toward it?
@@autumn_breeze616 Ditko DID have a 'stranglehold' on writing Spider-Man, when it became popular. Given the Marvel style of plot-art-script, the artist had tremendous control over the plot of the story, and eventually Ditko was given full credit for the plots.
"Ditko eventually desired credit for the plotting he was contributing under the Marvel Method. Lee concurred, and starting with #25 (June 1965), Ditko received plot credit for the stories."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Ditko
You should read those early Spider-Man stories and see for yourself why they became popular
My mind is blown by your ability to talk about such a politically intense philsophy while staying so incredibly impartial, like wow it's so refreshing to see for once
Implicitly Pretentious why is that good? lol
@@fshoaps because his exploration is not limited by a need to vindicate a judgement or opinion but by a genuine sincere sense of curiosity, therefore the whole video benefits from the wider mapping of ideas :)
Implicitly Pretentious Agreed! 👍🏼
@@fshoaps it is because he simply says and doesn't include some sort of 1 hour presentation on why he agrees/disagrees with it and it chill with it.
@@fshoaps Even if you loathe a philosophy, and I personally have very little good to say about objectivism, understanding is a path to knowledge. I also loathe fascism, that doesn't mean studying its history doesn't give insight into sociology.
I guess an analogy would be how some people are squeamish about doing dissection's in a biology class. Or how some people find the study of human decomposition, they call them corpse farms, to be deeply unsettling. It can be unpleasant, maybe even disturbing. There's nothing wrong with wanting little to do with it.
But you don't have to like it to learn something from it. You don't even have to learn what the creator intended. You can come to new conclusions and decide that writer's argument is dead wrong. A story is just an extended analogy created by another person to try and communicate their ideas.
The thing about killing someone is, you're not just killing who they are but everything they could be to the people around them and the world at large.
That's one of the things I'm trying to perfect in my own stories. All too often in fiction, Death is either overused or cheated with resurrections.
Death should never lose its meaning, as the sudden destruction of a soul, should impact how the story is told onwards.
_"All my life I've been interested in only one thing-making money! And yet Spider-Man risks his life day after day with no thought of reward! If A man him is good-is a hero-then what am I?? I can never respect myself while he lives! Spider-Man represents everything I'm not! He's brave, powerful, and unselfish! The truth is-I ENVY him! I, J. Jonah Jameson-millionaire, man of the world, civic leader-I'd give everything I own to be the man HE is! But I can never climb to his lever! So all that remains for me is-to try to tear him down-because Heaven help me-I'm JEALOUS of him!"_ - *John Johah J. J. J. J. Jameson*
What issue is that?
@@daelen.cclark issue 10, page 22
Maybe my favorite panel from the Lee-Ditko run.
I respect Ditko as a creative, he deserves his Co-Creator title for his Marvel work, but people out there who say Stan was a fraudster and that Ditko deserves all of the credit reeeeeaaaally know nothing about either of them. Ditko was an amazing artist and his belief in Objectivism and how he used that as a lens for his work is fascinating, but his lack of credit is really his own fault for pushing people away and not doing his own press work. Ultimately, his rigid Objectivism is what built Ditko up, and is the very thing that tears him down.
Stan lee was just the face and so called 'snakeslin oil salesman' of the business. Atleast he gave credit to the artists unlike fraudster Bob Kane
You're wrong blaming Ditko here. Jack Kirby wasn't a recluse, and Lee stole all his credit too (and wrote nothing). What you do not realize, is just how little of "writer: Stan Lee" was actually written by Stan Lee. Very little.
Also, that's a fine philosophy - if you steal from a silent person, it's his fault for not shouting.
I always find it strange how Objectivist heroes are lauded in-story as these Randian superheroes for refusing to compromise on their principles and are larger than life and loved and respected, yet their real world creators are often relegated to being pariahs or recluses due to their same philosophy. Kinda shows how the philosophy interacts with the real world IMO.
It just shows how the real world is not ideal, which is why people hate to think about objectivism.
It's because the industry is full of lefties who ironically are just uncompromising, but their philosophy is an appeal to emotions and worshiping feelings. Objectivism values logic
@Jake Proven you clearly either don't understand logic or learned about Objectivism from a Marxist professor who probably told you that feminism is good
@DJHart you can't disprove Objectivism without resorting to collectivist arguments. I bet you voted for Bernie
well not necessarily there are many rich objectivists, politicans and buisness men come to mind but there are others. The problem with Ditko was, unlike many similar men, he wasn't a person to do things for the paycheck rather he would gladly throw the money back at thier face. Honestly its a difference in perspective as someone else would make sure they get all the compensation they deserve for thier creation while he put effort to keep them the way he wanted them to be.
Also worth noting that the industry is very liberal and progressive especially back then, Stan lee himself noted that when he decided to make iron man as a way to troll the industry while presenting a different point of view if i recall correctly. Being so convicted while working with a room full of people that disagree, hate, or misunderstand your beliefs is a discomforting situation.
Wow - I had no idea Ditko was still active up through 2016. I always learn something unexpected when watching this channel. Thank you!
Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby. Totally different styles. Both brilliant.
So Steve Ditko was real life Rorshach with out the smells and murdering?
And the mask.
Yeah..."without"...suuuuuuuure....
Rorshach is based on his character The Question, it's no coincidence
Sadly his body was only found by his landlord, after responding to days of complaints about a smell from his apartment. What few visitors he had described it as small and messy.
Truly Outstanding video, Chris! I'll be watching this one a few times just to wrap my head around Ditko's way of thinking. If I had a list of comic creators I would want to interview, Ditko would be pretty high on that list. I think it was a huge loss to the comic world that Ditko chose to live his life as a recluse. Even though he was still turning out some work in his latter years, he didn't garner the commercial success/attention like his early Marvel days. Thanks for posting Chris. RIP, Mr. Ditko.
To think that as a teenager I was told comics were mindless drivel. How could I have possibly kept up w/ this vid w/o advanced education. Comix taught me so much and inspired research. Thanks for sharing. Yes love.
not to disagree with your point, but tbf Objectivism isn't a philosophy with any intellectual merit
😊
A great portrait of an extremely fascinating comic icon. Thank you!
I love the videos where you explore a writer or artist, their works, impact and personality. They are so informative, balanced and clearly well researched. Excellent job!
Goes without saying there will never be another Steve Ditko
There's plenty of neckbearded Randroids in the comics industry.
Can you name any?
Frank Miller? Chuck Dixon?
Neither of them are Objectivists, it's clear from their works. I don't know where you got that notion from.
Sorry I forgot the major Randroid pastime of Objectivism-of-the-gaps, where only things you like get the official Randroid seal of approval, while anything which shows Randroids as being a cult of obnoxious sociopaths is deemed sociopolitically impure.
Ahhhh. Clancey Brown's Luthor and Jeffrey Coombs' Question. Some of the finest voice casting ever.
I may not agree with his "philosophy," Steve Ditko was a talented man.
Right with you
@Mark Dobzyn What? Obama.?
@Mark Dobzyn wait how did Obama get into this?
@Mark Dobzyn thats not true and has nothing to do with whats happening
@Mark D
Ah yes
The ideology that's mocked by literally everyone for being a self serving, ludicrously cartoonish, hateful, childish, narcissistic apologia that's literally spawned cults
Wow, you really did a tremendous job on this!
I learned about Mr.Ditko's passing from this video and I burst out in tears! I hadn't yet had that kind of instant reaction to the loss of a cartoonist before! A lot of my favorites are gone, from Jack Kirby to Bob Kane;from Gene Colan to Carl Barks but none hit me like that! Some called him "Reclusive" but I saw him as a private man and I respected his privacy! I'm not one of those people who believe a cartoonist "owes" me a glimpse into their personal lives!
Having said that, I have to mention that in an article that was published in a comics related magazine, which came out around the time of the first Sam Raimi SPIDER-MAN movie
quotes attributed to Steve Ditko said conclusively that the identity of the Green Goblin had nothing to do with leaving Marvel because:
"...Stan never knew what he was getting in my Spider-Man stories and covers until after [production manager] Sol Brodsky took the material from me ... so there couldn't have been any disagreement or agreement, no exchanges ... no problems between us concerning the Green Goblin or anything else from before issue #25 to my final issues".
Some have speculated that Ditko's real beef was with (Marvel owner) Martin Goodman's alleged reneging on a royalty offer and instead pledging to give Ditko an increase in page rate, but unless an exact quote came from Steve, I just think of it as "possibly true--but perhaps not"!
Overall, I loved this video! I didn't agree 100% with Ditko and definitely NOT with Ayn Rand (who died living on Social Security, while allegedly espousing views which condemned government programs like "The New Deal" and "The Great Society!!) but Steve and I were on the same wavelength in many ways! And darn it, I LOVED his artwork!
GOOD BYE, STEVE--MAY YOU DWELL IN PARADISE!
The Pennsylvania State Library has large collection of Ditko's comics from his personal collection including Amazing Fantasy 15. The collection includes correspondence with Ditko and the Library. Ditko is from PA and it is nice that PA is preserving his work.
Great video. One of the most objective and non-judgmental reviews of Ditko's philosophy, his contribution to comics, and his influence to the medium.
Another great video from my favorite youtuber. You are underrated.
Ditko also designed the now iconic red and gold Iron-Man armor, probably saving that character from oblivion.
Sure that was Don Heck
@@Kiwi2375 Nope, it was an issue Ditko did guest art and featured Doll Man or something as the villain. Don Heck was the regular illustrator, and either he or Kirby designed the original armor, which was so clunky casual readers thought it was a robot, so Steve redesigned it. To the best of my knowledge, as I am phone only away from my PC...
Zack Snyder an Objectivist?, that explains Everything...
Fuck it really does doesn't it? Even Batman killing. By his standards there's no one more qualified to deal out death than an exceptional billionaire. Even if the wealth was entirely inherited.
And why he was wrong for those movies
It's not at all subtle tbh
abasa-fckin-lutely
I found this video specifically critiquing zack snyder and pointing out that objectivism is likely why the dcue movies and watchmen movie sucked so much
ruclips.net/video/hdxk7dB9yeU/видео.html
Great overview of Ditko's carreer and his beliefs. Im not his biiggest fan but since Spidey is my fav super hero and ASM 33 is probably one of my fav comics, then he will always have a special place in my heart.
People miss the fact that in Hawk and Dove, it was their father, the judge, who was supposed to be the mouthpiece for Ditko. Hawk and Dove were both supposed to be be rather misguided in their world views. I also would add that a lot of people, myself included, really loved Ditko's run on Rom, perhaps especially his work on the finale. Its true that a lot of people were jarred by Sal Buscema's departure from Rom, but at the same time, Ditko's work on the series certainly had its supporters.
That was a really informative video about Steve Ditko! I don't know if I agree with his philosophy but I do respect his point of view and the interesting way it affected his career in the comic industry.
When you think about it, by respecting his point of view you're already giving him far more credit than he'd give you.
"No "Buts"! My policies rule my property. I decide on the uses and disposal of my earned property! If you and Henry want to promote your causes, earn, create your own paper. Now GET OUT!" writes the man who spent his entire career trying to make other people publish his philosophy.
"He took no drugs"
In my opinion, more insane people eventually consume drugs than drugs produce insane people.
This doesn't make drugs harmless! But the whole "drugs artist" trope has problems. Drugs don't really make you more creative. They only can inspire a bit or keep you awake / asleep. This can lead to creativity... but only if you are disciplined enough to _actually work with them._
If anything, it's the sober artists hat give me the creeps, they're all just so.... off....
He didn’t say it was surprising that Ditko didn’t take drugs because Ditko was insane. He suggested that it’s surprising Ditko didn’t take drugs because of how psychedelic the art was on Doctor Strange. No one here is equating drugs with insanity
Great essay! That was a very well ressearched video.
It might be bad to say but judging by Mr A. I'm really glad ditko stop writing spider man and hawk and dove. Mr A is a lunatic with no idea of context. Just an inflexible psychotic philosophy.
Superheroes are supposed to act without context in an Objectivist Justice POV, as their emotions could lead them to failure and misniterpretation. An Objectivist hero must be resolute and uncompromisable to oppose to slimy villains and their attempts at deception. You can't bend the will of a 100% convinced man, It's his way or nothing else. It's an utopian view on society, sure, but it's one of the bases of the modern Superhero values. it's what makes a superhero stand apart from the masses.
Only crazy people act without context. Even laws have context like you can't kill people unless your attacked with this amount of force or if you were in this dire emotional state. As a great jedi once aid only a sith deals in absolute.(Corny I know but true) No one is fully good or evil. Sometimes good people make bad decision. Sometimes good people are forced to make bad decisions. Example your family is staving and the only way to feed them is by stealing. Do you steal food to feed your children who depend on you. Who's the bad guy in that situation? Good and evil are abstract concepts created by humans that change from place to place. Where I live you can't have sex with a girl under 16. But in other places you can marry 10 year olds. Which law is right? Which law is good? Mr A is a crazy person because he can't accept the simple truth that good and evil are arbitrary concepts created by man and ever changing. Not only from place to place but from time period to time period.
You basically just unironically described a complete sociopath. Like, literally the clinical definition.
@@EvilSandwich who me?
Lol no. The other guy in the thread.
Wow. Great episode Chris. I love your channel and this is one of my if my favorite ones. I look forward to all you newer shows. Been watching for awhile but I need to go back and dig out these GEMS !! Keep up the great work wonderful show
Reading the summary if Ayn Rand books comes across like a satire of what objectivism is about, but then you realize that's exactly what objectivism is.
I just always think of Alan Moore's response when asked about Rorschach's beliefs and objectivism something like "Never compromise your morals no matter what? Not even in the face of Armageddon? That's the way a child views the world, that's something a 15 year old kid would think was deep and philosophical. How ridiculous. Do you know what I think when somebody tells me that they were inspired by Rorschach or they can relate to him? I think "Get the F away from me you freak, I hope I never see you ever again." "
@@Elfenlied8675309 the funny thing is Rorschach is the character people resonate with the most because he wouldn’t compromise in the face of Armageddon (or in this case, a malignant narcissist murdering tens of thousands of people for flimsily justified reasons).
The way to judge his philosophy is to judge the type of life it bore him , one wher he was utterly alone and reclusive. It turned him into a serial quiter .
Except he actually finished the projects he was contracted to do unless they tried to make him compromise on his morale views in other words he actually held to his principals and didn't back the fuck down
Right... and I'm sure the world will remember you for... nothing.
The Storm Completely irrelevant but sure let’s just give excuses to famous people because their famous
But he wasn't a serial quitter at all. From interviews he wanted to be alone and as well was rather happy about it.
@@dakota4384 I think what I mean is that he had every bit the potential for creative output that Jack Kirby possessed. Kirby created nearly the whole marvel universe and there would be no marvel cinematic universe . Ditko showed an incredible imagination with spiderman and his rogues gallery, as well as dr strange . Perhaps it's this video but it just looks like he had a bad attitude and was not easy to work with. It's okay to stand for your principles and say no , but you have to be flexible and diplomatic . He just seemed like the spoiled kid that would get mad and take his ball and go home. The pity is we could of had a huge amount of great characters if he had learned to hang in there.
Don't do Rand, kids.
Yea.. do Rand then do Spooner and Rothbard
Also dont take advice from people who use fake names like mr X.. fake names fake news
Rand's philosophy is just sociopathic tendencies glorified to make a worldview simple enough for her coke addled mind. Not to mention her protagonists were inspired by her hero, a man who killed and dismembered a 12 year old girl and felt nothing. Objectivism only appeals to 16 year olds who don't know better and people who refuse to improve and better themselves.
www.rawstory.com/2019/08/the-right-wing-love-affair-with-ayn-rand-ties-conservatism-to-one-of-the-most-disturbing-sociopathic-killers/
@@jwhite1016aol "anyone who dislikes my hero Ayn Rand is immediately wrong, no, I will not explain why" lol you're all like 12
Not to mention there's no logical fallacies there, she did worship a murdering psychopath and used it for her weak and easily disproven philosophy, cry about it why don't you?
I know I’m late to the show (just recently discovered your channel), but I wanted to say how impressed I am with your material. I’ve been enjoying many of the episodes you’ve uploaded and I appreciate your hard work. Thank you!
This was a really good episode. This is the most thorough information on Steve Ditko that I’ve seen. Well done man! Please keep up the good work!
I very much enjoyed Steve Ditko's artwork and stories. The man had enormous creative talent without a doubt. But seeing how others who follow Ayn Rand's philosophies look down on others less fortunate than themselves (Paul Ryan, the would-be social security killer, being a prime example), I'm disappointed that Ditko followed such beliefs himself. Granted Stan Lee notoriously wasn't the easiest person to work for and was something of a prima donna, but it sounds to me now like many of Ditko's career problems were of his own making.
Ayn Rand never told Objectivists to look down on less fortunate people. She just said that if you want to help less fortunate people, do so because you yourself want to help them by any means necessary because it makes you happy and pursuing you're own rational happiness is always the right thing to do *for you*. Paul Ryan probably isn't smiling at the thought of depriving desperate people of social security; he's just a party hatchet man, that is, an ideologue who very unreflectively acts according to the will of others whom he chooses to serve -- the opposite of what an Objectivist would do. Just because Ayn Rand hated the idea of control and totalitarian government taking power to choose from people does not mean that she would be opposed to a rational self-interested person seizing power and finding a way to redistribute what taxes are collected and excess profits earned into charitable ventures. What Ayn Rand was basically trying to get people to do organize efficiently for the sake of individuals. For example, she did not subscribe to false dichotomies like "welfare versus free business"; instead she was trying get people to think in terms of cutting inherently oppressive government expenditures like empire-building militarism in favor of whatever people want to vote for on ever-more individual basis, perhaps social security. To this end, she would intentionally say things that would seem to outrage people, such as saying that taking care of the weak is a waste, but solely in the context of trying to get people to see themselves as they really are, that much charitable thinking is not honest and, quite frankly, self-destructive for no rational purpose, a form of insanity. However, if one does have a rational purpose for one's charitable dreams, then one's charity becomes art in the Aristotelian sense -- showing the world as it should be. For example, an orthodox Christian has a very rational purpose behind his self-sacrifical behavior; to wit, to pursue his self-interest by achieving immortality by acting like a saint. By 'rational', Ayn Rand never ever means there should be a totalitarian state that serves as the arbiter of all truth. Quite simply, she means that given what someone believes to be true about life, they should act consistently for their own self-interest because the individual believes there is an objective truth and, ethically, they choose to live according to that objective truth -- they believe it is objective; they never believe nothing, or in other words, even if truth were relative, nobody could ever know that. By their own lights, all people must have the courage to believe in objective truth and live according to that truth, or we commit ourselves to a deep psychological cowardice that destroys any chance at happiness. Objectivism is a psychology that would clarify politics, not a political system that would force a psychology on people. The entire point of it is overturning totalitarian structure always and everywhere.
Jason? --Where do you get the right to steal my money, give it to other people, and call it "social security" while pretending you're doing good? You advocate a kleptocracy to administer the wealth-redistribution, and seem pleased with yourself. (That is, I suppose, until a Trumpitler takes over the thing, because gosh, how could that ever happen?)
You sound like a clueless idiot. Find someone else to educate you. This social-security-collecting old recluse doesn't give a sweet God-damn about either you or your ignorant ideas about what Social Security is or does.
The problem with this theory is that it's not your money; it is the U.S. Treasury's money, which tally points you earned by working for yourself or someone else according to a system of credit established and maintained by the U.S. Legislature. If you use this money to purchase the equivalent in gold, you'd still have to store that gold on property secured by the U.S. governments, for which they require taxation of your property, for which they accept gold transferred into their currency. The right they have to enforce this system is the overarching duty of the strong to prevent anarchy and to administrate all social, economic, and political, disputes, of all those weaker than them within their practical scope of influence, just exactly what would give the fictional Mr. A the right to police people as a vigilante within his scope of influence. You see, the ultimately contradiction of Rand's philosophy is that totalitarian government rules by might -- it is composed of Randians doing exactly what Rand idealizes by their own unique definitions of reason that excludes others or justifies trampling on the rights of the weaker: "the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute". She came upon this contradiction because she failed to distinguish between reason and values, and did not recognize that reason is an overall integration of logical thinking and values, not an absolute objective picture of reality in itself. Thus, she incorporates the conclusion she wants to reach in her premises by defining 'reason' as always implying a life-affirming selfish ethic that would, by categorical imperative I suppose, prevent a selfish ego from dominating another selfish ego, etc, and that basic dynamic between people she would define as cooperative fairness. However, people can be rational, selfish, ethical, and have totally different morals because their 'reason' shows them a different world compared to somebody else. This does not mean necessarily that truth is relative at all; it merely indicates that understanding life is a complicated process that can take longer than a lifetime, and realistically it's religious thinking that gives people their morals, not objective 'reason' that is not self-evident.
The problem with your theory is that you really do need to get your fucking hands out of my pockets.
He's just as morality grey as everyone else, he just doesn't have the balls to face it
that's funny coming from people who reeee about justice when cops kill someone. where's that gray morality bitch?
@@savagetv6460 lol
@@savagetv6460 rules for thee but not for me
Excellent work! One of the best looks at Steve Ditko and his work I have seen...
I recall a gray ink wash story Steve did for one of the B&W Warren mags that was simply amazing. VERY illustrative and realistic, unlike anything I had ever seen from him. He was a very inspired and skilled draftsman.
I don't necessarily agree with all of Steve Ditko's philosophies, but on some level I respect that he always adhered to his own personal beliefs. It wasn't like he was some psycho radical. He just stuck to his guns.
more of a sociopath than a psychopath
@@salum75 No
It's easy to stick to one's personal beliefs when those beliefs include "I can never, ever be wrong about anything". That's what's so attractive about so-called "Objectivism" for so many - it allows one to stop thinking, and justify reacting emotionally.
I agree, although I feel if it harms people, THAT'S a whole different thing, which luckily Ditko never did.
@@Werrf1 = ....while telling everyone else it is THEY who are thinking emotionally!
ive just recently discovered comic tropes and i can certainly say that ive become a huge fan! your channel is extremely engaging and the topics you cover are diverse and interesting. im not a patreon member but i certainly wish that some kind words would make their way to you as to inspire more creation. thank you sir and CREATE ON!
Great video, I’ve been diving head first into your work!
While I thank him for the creation of spiderman,and may he rest in peace.
He would be a pain to work with,
The objectivists may say otherwise but not all people are objective.
In the world it isn't black or white, And there are so many shades of gray between them.
And personally I find the bland 'there is good, there is bad' as just that, Bland.
If you like the Question or Mr. A, pick up the Fly #6 (Archie, 1983) where Ditko creates the Crooked Man, an objectivist who brings criminals to a haunted house to punish them.
Congrats on the 10K, keep up the good work...
Great video. Just found your channel and really enjoying it !
Ditko's figure drawing had a wonderful dynamism to them, even when the backgrounds were nonexistent. Good episode, again!
RIP, Steve Ditko...
Yeah it's not a good idea to get too attached to one philosophy. In doing so you might just miss out on a whole world of possibilities. It's admirable to stand by ones convictions, but in reality without compromise you miss the whole point of life in general. The views and experiences of others make life interesting and worth living, while sameness only leads to stagnation. Creativity would dwindle to nothing in such a world.
It‘s especially not a good idea to get attached to _this_ „philosophy“
That thinking is for weak people.
@@kaboose111 You said it so explain why. I'm not saying all people by the way, just not to live by a strict narrative of my way or the highway and under no circumstances can you think differently than I do. We all want to "fit in" so to speak but that only leads to a boring an unfulfilled society on a mass scale.
@@kaboose111 do you mean successful people
So you don't stand for anything, that's what you're saying?
Thank you for this. I thought you were fair and I learned a lot. When I was a kid, (I am now 71), Ditko and Kirby were my favorite comic book artists; men not only of great talent but conviction and character.
How ironic. He refused to "sell out" and do projects that went against his convictions... but then was disappointed when "the market" didn't want his ideological stuff.
@Jay TalentsGodddamn right, bro!
I mean no one likes to be rejected and fail seeing as he continued working and his stuff is valued now seems like he was a case of people only care when your dead
Wow. I had no idea Mr. Ditko was so such an interesting fella. Now I want to pick up and read some Mr. A comics. Thanks for this great video. I'm subcribed to your channel now. 😎👍
The Lee, Ditko team was and always will be my favorite ! I was always chomping at the bit waiting for their next issues. Two more legends are gone.
"Team"
Hi Chris, I am a new subscriber and found your channel via some other comic channels I watch. I started collecting comics in the early 90's but then stopped after high school before joining the military. After I retired from active duty last year, I got back into collecting and absolutely love being back to reading and seeing awesome comic books. I really enjoy your videos and your natural comedy when you make them. I look forward to more great content!
Love this episode. I've learn a lot from your research about Steve Ditko, thank you very much!!! Keep on doing your work!
The hero in an objectivist story is actually the villain in the real world.
I appreciate the objectiveness of the video itself. Especially considering Ditko had a perspective that can be considered terrible. But because of his contributions to many lives through his cultural contributions, we learn about his perspective and what made the man behind the contributions. I respect you, Steve Ditko, even if I disagree with your philosophy.
These videos are fantastic! You bring well-research depth into the workings of the comics field.
Fantastic video. Thanks for bringing some special insight into Ditko and Lee. Interesting to see the stark dichotomy between Ditko's curvy, often phantasmagorical drawing style and character conception and the rigid intellectual philosophy he followed.
Well researched, you filled in some details I didn't know.
I always thought of Mr. A as what the Punisher would be like as a clerical worker, "I totally knew you would get paper cut, but I said nothing." It was a lot of text for very little pay off.
Pretty good Stan imitation!
Great video,there's a lot about comic book history here that I never knew about,thanks.👍
This is incredibly well put together.
This was as good and concise a summary of Ayn Rand and Objectivism as I have encountered.
Very well Done. Steve Ditko deserves to be Studied.
Amazing Video, Chris. Thank You !
Well. I gave up comics long, long ago. Your channel has answered a number of questions I hadn't thought about in decades.
I was never a big fan of Ditko's art style (John Romita Sr. was always my favorite Spiderman artist even though I recognize Ditko's contribution that Romita built on). It's not bad, by any means...and I learned to appreciate it as time went on. But I gotta say: His design work is brilliant. SO MANY iconic characters...truly some of the best in comics.
Yep. Romita all the way for me too. I personally find Ditko's art an eye sore.
i was sad to hear of Steve's passing. The few Stranges Tales with Dr Strange Ditko art i have are some of my most prized comic books, i also have to say i do like the line art in the Mr A stories.
Mark Lawrence I've always wanted to own original comic art, but even smaller items are pricey.
Mighty Raccoon yeah, but to own a piece of artwork before it became the comic is what I'd like (if that made any sense lol).
There is a seller on ebay that has a lot of the original cel work used to produce the comicbooks from the silver age - i'd like to know a bit more about the process to be honest but the work is interesting to look at: try searching for "Original Production Art STRANGE TALES" there's some classic covers and art there.
Mark Lawrence I've always wanted animation cells from Filmation, esp ST:TAS and Flash Gordon.
ComicTropes is the most fun site on youtube, bar none! Thanks for all you do Chris!
Love your work buddy i really enjoy your honest insight and opinions on all things comics keep up the great work
Gosh I can't believe Ditko felt this way he's still amazing though love his work!!!
Ironically Ayn Rand’s favorite author was Victor Hugo. Grey areas and redemption abound in Hugo. The shunned and the outsider and his greatest hero is technical a criminal on the lamb. I‘ve always felt that Rand gets interpreted incorrectly. Peter Parker is totally keeping to Rand by using his invention to help others, because it’s what he wants. Rand felt that altruism was the right path if one admitted he was doing it for his own happiness. Rational selfishness easily leads to altruism and doing things to benefit society, humanity and the planet; if not for the pleasure of helping others, than the fact that it helps create a healthier world for one to live. Ditto strikes me as one of those Rand followers who never understood this or the notion of redemption. Maybe he should have read Hugo as his mentor did. I’m guessing his heroes would have been a lot more interesting.
Except Peter Parker DOESNOT Do altruism fit his own happyness-
This was incredibly fascinating, thanks for sharing. I took out my old issue of Charlton Blue Beetle; you’ve given me an added appreciation of this era of his work.
This might've been my first CT video and it honestly reminds me why comics and their creators are so fascinating. Maybe my favorite video of the channel.
Gotta love seeing the sponsered ad for Ayn Rand's institute. "Introducing Objectivism"
Nobody told Ditko to subscribe to such a flawed philosophy… I feel like Stan made the correct decision. He seemed to be a genuinely unpleasant person to work with.
Further evidence that Ditko couldn’t have plotted Spider-Man all by himself, otherwise it would’ve been some sort of Mr. A drywall comic, lol!
Ditko isn't an idea guy but he's great at visualizing other people's ideas. Lee and Ditko were both needed for Spider-Man
This might be your best video. Great job!
I love your videos. Keep making them.