Why Steve Ditko Quit
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- Опубликовано: 23 ноя 2024
- This episode of Comic Tropes takes a look at Steve Ditko's comic book work and history. Ditko was an ardent follower of Ayn Rand's philosophy of Objectivism. By looking at how seriously he took his beliefs, we can put his career in context and understand which projects he decided to work on and which ones, like Spider-Man, that he'd walk away from even though they were successful. Stan Lee has said some things but Ditko never gave as many public interviews. Nevertheless, he did grant a few rare interviews and wrote many essays in his self-published comics like Mr. A, so those are shared so that we hear about his history in his own words.
/ comictropes
Correction: I pulled an image of comic book artist Jack Cole (Plastic Man) that was labeled as Steve Ditko. I should have caught it, but it's in there. Oops.
Jack Cole is perfect for your humorous show.
No problem. Doesn't detract from the awesome video. Keep up the great work!
I was wondering why Jack's picture was there. There are several pictures of him back in the day, but I wonder if any photos of Steve will emerge now that he's passed away. The reporter in this article says he looked like Uncle Junior from Sopranos. www.vulture.com/2016/11/steve-ditko-doctor-strange-c-v-r.html
I think you summed up everything really well. In the future it would be cool if Steve's actual picture was there.
Issue #85. GL/GA discover that Arrow's partner, Speedy (Roy Harper) is doing drugs. More info here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowbirds_Don%27t_Fly
Oh my, yes, it's childish to believe in an objective reality, the value of rationality, or in individual rights and liberties. The stuff of 12-year-old comic book readers' fantasies, I'm sure.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectivism_(Ayn_Rand)
But I certainly agree that people should bear responsibility for the ideas they believe in, and the consequences of those ideas.
I love the irony that 3 of his creations were inspirations for several of main charaters in Watchmen, which is kind of Grey Area: the Book.
Which characters inspired which watchmen characters?
@@Lqw17 mentioned in the video is Question who inspired Rorsharch, Blue Beetle inspired Nite Owl, and Captian Atom inspired Dr Manhattan.
@@JunoAuerWatson wow that's really cool! Thanks bro!
Don't forget Mr. A! A is A! I think The Question was a toned-down version of Mr. A. While the Question was one of the Charlton properties that DC acquired, Alan Moore was very aware of Mr. A when he created Rorschach. While the Question was a rigid moralist, Mr. A was a psychotic nut. Not that Ditko thought so. Alan Moore tried to make Rorschach a villain, but he found that however evil Rorschach was, he had a noble center that Moore couldn't erase.
so true! It's almost ignorant to think that way - also, AYN RAND? GTFOH
Now everything makes sense ...for him, Stan Lee was either good or evil ...he decided evil.
... In order to make his characters interesting Stan made them imperfect, with flaws ... I can't imagine the constant confrontation between those 2 minds, so different.
They respected each other but never really clicked they at one point just didn’t talk with each other to just avoid problems. They eventually buried the hatchet decades later but never truly became what I’d call friends. Still not as bad as stan lee and Jack Kirby’s falling out.
Considering Stan Lee wouldn't give Steve any credit....uh....sorta evil.
@The Law anyone who ever thought stan was evil didn't know him or possibly never read any of his work. Although other creators made significant contributions to marvel over the years and deserve recognition none of it happens without stan.
I remain on Stan's side all the way.
@@HoorayTV21 Why would you post something so stupid, wrong, and easily disproved? Right in THS VERY VIDEO, it shows Stan telling the world that Ditko was writing Spiderman.
Stan: With great power comes great responsibility
Steve: Wait, what now?
The concept of "with great power comes great responsibility" doesnt really conflict with objectivism. Mr A still took it upon himself to fight evil doers and save the innocent despite it not really benefiting him, even putting his life at risk to do so. He had the physical/mental ability to do it plus he had the strong moral compass to guide him, and felt the responsibility to act stem from that.
@@dannyboy5008 I see you made some comments explaining the ideas or Steve ditko and that is appreciated. But the disagreement is obvious. Spiderman is the kind of character that needs to use all of his power to serve the greater good. That means he has to remove himself of any personal stances and principles. His only principle should be (after he learns his lesson) to save and protect people. Mr A seems to me like a character that values his principles and ideals above all making him someone that doesn't struggle with morality at all (which is not all that relatable). So the dispute imo makes perfect sense and for me it's obvious that spidey needed to be what he eventually continued to be (after ditko left).
@@stam7250 struggling with morality makes you relatable? I think those are a very poor choice of words as they’re often used to justify “mistakes”.
@@pn2294 Moral grey areas are pretty common in the real world and make for good stories. Like what do you do if someone assaults a person while drunk but are otherwise not violent? Are they evil or good?
@@PurpleColonel pointless question
What we really should be asking is, are they still a threat?
When you revealed Snyder is an objectivist it all clicked for me as to why his portrayal of Superman was so off. This was a fascinating study of an important figure in comics and I learned something too so a subscribe from me. Great work.
he isn't tho lol. the only reason his portrayal of Superman is "off" is bc he doesn't start out as the Blue Boy Scout from the jump, he would have had to have earned it thru the 5-film Justice League arc Snyder had planned.
@@Imetral0 Actually, he is. In fact, Snyder wanted to adapt The Fountainhead
@@DarkReflections86 he also said that Rand's ideas were dumb. just bc he wants to adapt The Fountainhead doesn't necessarily mean he's into her ideology.
@@Imetral0 More evidence that Snyder doesn't generally understand what he reads or the stories he tells. His Superman is complete shit from someone who doesn't understand how heroism works or why the S stands for "hope." He even goes for the lazy, simplistic trope of "Superman is only good because of Lois, and if she dies he's a monster," which is like a child's idea of Superman's moral compass. Then again, with Snyder's Kents as his moral foundation, I suppose Snyder's Superman never had a chance to be anything else.
That said, I'd watch a Snyder adaptation of The Fountainhead just to see how badly he misunderstands that story, too. Snyder seems like a genuinely nice person in real life, but he should leave storytelling to people who are competent at it.
@@Keldroc half your statement was filled with insults toward Snyder, who didn't write any of the Snyderverse beyond the outline. that would be David S. Goyer. hell, Chris Nolan helped Goyer out with the story for Man of Steel. your main problem is that you just keep projecting your ideal of what Superman is onto these movies that are clearly trying to do their own thing with the mythos.
I wonder what Ditko would have done if he could have created a storyline for Judge Dredd?
Justified murder, basically.
I mean probably would be Judge Dredd with better written dialogue and better story structure.
It would be the same without the tongue and cheek humor.
@@supreme-dictator-donald-tr6611 this
@@ziggystardust7001 also it's already justified cause judge dredd is a judge
Ditko was my favourite artist when I discovered comics back in 1967 and remains so to this day. He's one of the best visual story tellers in the business, right up there with Kirby. But he really, really couldn't write. His characters talk like badly written text books - if you read Rand's books (especially Atlas Shrugged) you can see where he gets it from. His inability to appreciate what Stan Lee brought to his stories was a blindspot that, ultimately, did him no favours. Like too many people (especially nowadays) he couldn't understand the difference between balance and compromise; a good story must have balance, so that the reader can make up his own mind; towards the end, Ditko wasn't writing fiction, he was peddling propaganda. But, as I said at the start, he's still my favourite artist, and his Dr Strange will stand the test of time for as long as comics endure.
It is as if he couldn’t see his own flaws and that the world isn’t black and white
Is that any different from many other comic artists, even today?
@@dakota4384 Actually, compared to many modern writers/artists, Ditko now looks like a moderate. (And I'm only half kidding.)
That's an unfair idea honestly, he had pretty good writing even through his hard to understand worldview. Same as a guy like Niestzche.
His need to teach his readers, who he seems to consider stupid, is very grating. Very gifted visual artist, but a high school philosopher basically.
I don't fully agree with Ditko or Ayn Rand's views, but I respect Ditko greatly for what he accomplished & how he accomplished it.
Wise choice
Best response somebody has given to Ditko's views so far
@@AceLM92 indeed.
I agree with him. Rand and her ideology is very misunderstood. Most people simplify it and don’t really get it.
@@christianbjorck816 how would you better explain the ideology?
I loved his psychedelic and imaginative work on Doctor Strange. In fact Steve Ditko and Stan lee's Doctor Strange series was my first introduction to the character. At the age of five I would pick up that cover-less fat paperback collecting and re-read over and over. It was all so fascinating. I still read that paperback to this day. I always pick up details I missed years back. Steve Ditko's Doctor Strange was fun. Imagine my excitement when I found out a movie was being made of him in 2016. I knew way before any of my friends did. When I dressed up as him for Halloween everyone thought I was Dracula. This misconception has been cleared up by the movie.
On this point even Stan Lee was in agreement. Those Doctor Strange stories were all DItko. Stan said so in print multiple times.
I do love how The Question has an unmovable set of thinking, it makes him unique... and a bit crazy. Ironically, his beliefs makes him a flawed character to my eyes.
I would probably have a hard time hanging out with someone like Ditko. I'm such a "case by case" kind of person, very few things are inherently evil to my eyes.
Most people are like that, its a very convenient kind of morality you can bend every which way.
I LOVE Mysterious Suspense #1--the comic that introduced The Question! It's probably my favorite comic of all! And it's hilarious that it was published by Charlton Comics, this really 3rd rate comic book company that paid the lowest rates in the industry! You have this really complicated philosophical novel being marketed to 6 and 7 year old kids who have no idea what the hell he's talking about!
@@bigfan1041 Or perhaps it is the convenient philosophy that doesn’t force you to distinguish between shades of grey... Life is not black and white, friend.
@@bigfan1041 I think its far more convenient to rely on some arbitrary moral code determined by a man in the clouds
You have the same thoughts as me “case by case” and not everyone is inherently evil.
I'd always kind of assumed Ditko was just some old hippy that Stan had found at Woodstock who he asked to draws his acid flash backs in Dr Strange.
To learn that he was a dry as boot leather objectivist (of all things) is actually fucking hilarious.
Ikr 🤣
I thought he was like a “straight man” from his face but he’s pretty different from what I thought he was like
It's actually sad that you are incapable to comprehend vivid imagination without the use of drugs.
@@Sirzhukov oh please. Ove probably got a mind that wonders more than yours.
The thing that's so weird about this is how trip accurate a lot of his illustrations are.
Steve Ditko's art speaks for itself. His designs were revolutionary and he helped define how motion was shown in comic books. Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko are responsible for what I consider to be the finest art in comic books. Whether you agree with Ditko's views does not matter. His contributions should be recognized.
YUPPERZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz
You knocked this one out of the park, Chris.
It's hard to touch on something like Objectivist philosophy and not get bogged down in details or politics. I was ready to cringe but it was all quite well handled, light touch and apolitical. On the internet, that is a superpower for sure.
Gnarleston Gnu nothing is ever apolitical lol. I’m glad this was ComicTropes take on the subject.
I’m glad when I find out when my favorite creators appreciate some of my other favorite, but less famous, content creators. Both of y’all are fantastic; thanks for the years of consistently stellar content ❤️
Kriskazam least of all comics. Comics have an amazingly complex political history and legacy. From the patriotic ideological machine of the golden age comics to the subversive and self aware commentary of watchmen, comics have always been a mirror image of the dominant political ethos of the societies which created them. I’m glad that Chris doesn’t shy away from that important aspect of comics in his show. Trying to understand comics without understanding their ideologies is like trying to understand the Bible without knowing what Judaisms is. I.e. it’s such a core fundamental aspect of it that without knowledge of it you will never understand it fully
And not fo da first time!
My mind is blown by your ability to talk about such a politically intense philsophy while staying so incredibly impartial, like wow it's so refreshing to see for once
Implicitly Pretentious why is that good? lol
@@fshoaps because his exploration is not limited by a need to vindicate a judgement or opinion but by a genuine sincere sense of curiosity, therefore the whole video benefits from the wider mapping of ideas :)
Implicitly Pretentious Agreed! 👍🏼
@@fshoaps it is because he simply says and doesn't include some sort of 1 hour presentation on why he agrees/disagrees with it and it chill with it.
@@fshoaps Even if you loathe a philosophy, and I personally have very little good to say about objectivism, understanding is a path to knowledge. I also loathe fascism, that doesn't mean studying its history doesn't give insight into sociology.
I guess an analogy would be how some people are squeamish about doing dissection's in a biology class. Or how some people find the study of human decomposition, they call them corpse farms, to be deeply unsettling. It can be unpleasant, maybe even disturbing. There's nothing wrong with wanting little to do with it.
But you don't have to like it to learn something from it. You don't even have to learn what the creator intended. You can come to new conclusions and decide that writer's argument is dead wrong. A story is just an extended analogy created by another person to try and communicate their ideas.
His artwork is truly remarkable. Shame he couldn't have worked better with other. Still co-creating (arguably creating) Spiderman will leave a legacy few can match...
The thing about "objectivism" is that it may actually work out if we have something we're CERTAIN can discover the objective truth and good in every matter. In practice people just decide what's objective, hopefully based on evidence but in morality often not. It's basically Ayn Rand going "I'm literally so smart that if we disagree I can comfortably write you off completely as wrong."
Ayn Rand’s philosophy is literally satanism and the basis of libertarianism/consumerism. If our personal happiness is our moral guide you basically have “do what thou wilt is the law of the land”. Her philosophy just eliminated the religious aspect of it. There is “objective truths” in the world and I don’t buy into post modern relativism either, but ayn rands application of objective truth to everything including morals is just downright evil. Simple things like physical reality is objectively true. The sun comes up in the morning and it’s observable…. But that’s about the end of it.
Yeah, like...Girl, that's not a philosophy, that's just narcissism😭
_"All my life I've been interested in only one thing-making money! And yet Spider-Man risks his life day after day with no thought of reward! If A man him is good-is a hero-then what am I?? I can never respect myself while he lives! Spider-Man represents everything I'm not! He's brave, powerful, and unselfish! The truth is-I ENVY him! I, J. Jonah Jameson-millionaire, man of the world, civic leader-I'd give everything I own to be the man HE is! But I can never climb to his lever! So all that remains for me is-to try to tear him down-because Heaven help me-I'm JEALOUS of him!"_ - *John Johah J. J. J. J. Jameson*
What issue is that?
@@daelen.cclark issue 10, page 22
Maybe my favorite panel from the Lee-Ditko run.
You know, the one thing I've always found an admirable trait in a writer is the ability to present people whose moral, religious, political, etc. values the writer might actively disagree with, and _still_ present them in a fair light as real characters with real personalities, instead of just treating them as weak strawmen for the author's pet characters to debunk.
Ditko seems like the complete antithesis of that.
He literally is the opposite of that.
It's kinda hilarious.
Um my dude have a look at the villians he wrote and the stories he wrote you will see he is more than capable of doing that but prefered stories where shock of shocks the good guys actually do the right thing.
The way he wrote Hawk & Dove proves you wrong. He didn't even TRY to present both sides in an equal fashion.
That's one work though.
ironic that his unwillingness to create grey-area characters created psychopathic anti-heroes...
@Raving Dave You don't need to kill someone to be a psychopath
None of his characters were anti heroes they were some of the finest examples of real super heroes in comics they don't bend or compromise in the pursuit of justice and they give these villians exactly what they have earned.
@@michaelkeha nah they're pretty wack tbh. Mr A is a terrifying psycho, and Ditkos writing gives off a weird detached vibe. I'll be honest, I'm glad he didn't get a stranglehold on writing Spiderman because the character never would have been as popular with Ditko at the helm.
Why are there so many objectivism-defenders (who all appear to have a loose-at-best grasp on punctuation to varying degrees) in the replies to comments on this video? Did some particularly objectivist RUclipsr direct their fans toward it?
@@autumn_breeze616 Ditko DID have a 'stranglehold' on writing Spider-Man, when it became popular. Given the Marvel style of plot-art-script, the artist had tremendous control over the plot of the story, and eventually Ditko was given full credit for the plots.
"Ditko eventually desired credit for the plotting he was contributing under the Marvel Method. Lee concurred, and starting with #25 (June 1965), Ditko received plot credit for the stories."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Ditko
You should read those early Spider-Man stories and see for yourself why they became popular
Objectivism seems to encourage stepping over everyone around in order to satisfy yourself. It's like the justification of selfishness
Ayn Rand wrote a book called "The Virtue of Selfishness."
Theres truth to the benefits of individuality and selfishness. From the way you speak I suppose you give every penny you have to others and never consider your own well being? Objectivism is understanding that you and your closest loved ones should come first before you begin to consider others, *not* that you can *never* consider others. That's not really immoral, its moreso a realistic ordering of priorities.
@@dannyboy5008 thats not what objectivism is, youre replying to every comment trying to justify it, kinda embarassing, ayn rand was a crazy moron cultleader, youre just selfish and greedy and a loser. Get laid.
@@dannyboy5008 standing by your convictions no matter what sounds a little counterintuitive and could cause you to be selfish in a destructive and ignorant way
I have a mix feelings about objectivism one hand I like how it makes you think in a objective manner and standing your ground in your beliefs even if you didn’t win in a argument. But it makes bad view on crime and other people, because the world is not just black and white there’s a lot of grey in there. And encourage you to be selfish and a dick to people with a shortsighted world view.
Wow - I had no idea Ditko was still active up through 2016. I always learn something unexpected when watching this channel. Thank you!
Truly Outstanding video, Chris! I'll be watching this one a few times just to wrap my head around Ditko's way of thinking. If I had a list of comic creators I would want to interview, Ditko would be pretty high on that list. I think it was a huge loss to the comic world that Ditko chose to live his life as a recluse. Even though he was still turning out some work in his latter years, he didn't garner the commercial success/attention like his early Marvel days. Thanks for posting Chris. RIP, Mr. Ditko.
I love the videos where you explore a writer or artist, their works, impact and personality. They are so informative, balanced and clearly well researched. Excellent job!
To think that as a teenager I was told comics were mindless drivel. How could I have possibly kept up w/ this vid w/o advanced education. Comix taught me so much and inspired research. Thanks for sharing. Yes love.
not to disagree with your point, but tbf Objectivism isn't a philosophy with any intellectual merit
😊
I respect Ditko as a creative, he deserves his Co-Creator title for his Marvel work, but people out there who say Stan was a fraudster and that Ditko deserves all of the credit reeeeeaaaally know nothing about either of them. Ditko was an amazing artist and his belief in Objectivism and how he used that as a lens for his work is fascinating, but his lack of credit is really his own fault for pushing people away and not doing his own press work. Ultimately, his rigid Objectivism is what built Ditko up, and is the very thing that tears him down.
Stan lee was just the face and so called 'snakeslin oil salesman' of the business. Atleast he gave credit to the artists unlike fraudster Bob Kane
You're wrong blaming Ditko here. Jack Kirby wasn't a recluse, and Lee stole all his credit too (and wrote nothing). What you do not realize, is just how little of "writer: Stan Lee" was actually written by Stan Lee. Very little.
Also, that's a fine philosophy - if you steal from a silent person, it's his fault for not shouting.
"He took no drugs"
In my opinion, more insane people eventually consume drugs than drugs produce insane people.
This doesn't make drugs harmless! But the whole "drugs artist" trope has problems. Drugs don't really make you more creative. They only can inspire a bit or keep you awake / asleep. This can lead to creativity... but only if you are disciplined enough to _actually work with them._
If anything, it's the sober artists hat give me the creeps, they're all just so.... off....
He didn’t say it was surprising that Ditko didn’t take drugs because Ditko was insane. He suggested that it’s surprising Ditko didn’t take drugs because of how psychedelic the art was on Doctor Strange. No one here is equating drugs with insanity
So Steve Ditko was real life Rorshach with out the smells and murdering?
And the mask.
Yeah..."without"...suuuuuuuure....
Rorshach is based on his character The Question, it's no coincidence
Sadly his body was only found by his landlord, after responding to days of complaints about a smell from his apartment. What few visitors he had described it as small and messy.
"I didn't fire Ditko, I didn't. Oh hi, Mark."
Marvel DC you are tearing me apart
...I understood that reference! 🙃
ahm fedap wid dis wurold.
"what were you thinking Ditko, you could have died."
"Anyways how is your sex life?"
Ditko also designed the now iconic red and gold Iron-Man armor, probably saving that character from oblivion.
Sure that was Don Heck
@@Kiwi2375 Nope, it was an issue Ditko did guest art and featured Doll Man or something as the villain. Don Heck was the regular illustrator, and either he or Kirby designed the original armor, which was so clunky casual readers thought it was a robot, so Steve redesigned it. To the best of my knowledge, as I am phone only away from my PC...
A great portrait of an extremely fascinating comic icon. Thank you!
The Pennsylvania State Library has large collection of Ditko's comics from his personal collection including Amazing Fantasy 15. The collection includes correspondence with Ditko and the Library. Ditko is from PA and it is nice that PA is preserving his work.
That was a really informative video about Steve Ditko! I don't know if I agree with his philosophy but I do respect his point of view and the interesting way it affected his career in the comic industry.
When you think about it, by respecting his point of view you're already giving him far more credit than he'd give you.
I always find it strange how Objectivist heroes are lauded in-story as these Randian superheroes for refusing to compromise on their principles and are larger than life and loved and respected, yet their real world creators are often relegated to being pariahs or recluses due to their same philosophy. Kinda shows how the philosophy interacts with the real world IMO.
It just shows how the real world is not ideal, which is why people hate to think about objectivism.
It's because the industry is full of lefties who ironically are just uncompromising, but their philosophy is an appeal to emotions and worshiping feelings. Objectivism values logic
@Jake Proven you clearly either don't understand logic or learned about Objectivism from a Marxist professor who probably told you that feminism is good
@DJHart you can't disprove Objectivism without resorting to collectivist arguments. I bet you voted for Bernie
well not necessarily there are many rich objectivists, politicans and buisness men come to mind but there are others. The problem with Ditko was, unlike many similar men, he wasn't a person to do things for the paycheck rather he would gladly throw the money back at thier face. Honestly its a difference in perspective as someone else would make sure they get all the compensation they deserve for thier creation while he put effort to keep them the way he wanted them to be.
Also worth noting that the industry is very liberal and progressive especially back then, Stan lee himself noted that when he decided to make iron man as a way to troll the industry while presenting a different point of view if i recall correctly. Being so convicted while working with a room full of people that disagree, hate, or misunderstand your beliefs is a discomforting situation.
I learned about Mr.Ditko's passing from this video and I burst out in tears! I hadn't yet had that kind of instant reaction to the loss of a cartoonist before! A lot of my favorites are gone, from Jack Kirby to Bob Kane;from Gene Colan to Carl Barks but none hit me like that! Some called him "Reclusive" but I saw him as a private man and I respected his privacy! I'm not one of those people who believe a cartoonist "owes" me a glimpse into their personal lives!
Having said that, I have to mention that in an article that was published in a comics related magazine, which came out around the time of the first Sam Raimi SPIDER-MAN movie
quotes attributed to Steve Ditko said conclusively that the identity of the Green Goblin had nothing to do with leaving Marvel because:
"...Stan never knew what he was getting in my Spider-Man stories and covers until after [production manager] Sol Brodsky took the material from me ... so there couldn't have been any disagreement or agreement, no exchanges ... no problems between us concerning the Green Goblin or anything else from before issue #25 to my final issues".
Some have speculated that Ditko's real beef was with (Marvel owner) Martin Goodman's alleged reneging on a royalty offer and instead pledging to give Ditko an increase in page rate, but unless an exact quote came from Steve, I just think of it as "possibly true--but perhaps not"!
Overall, I loved this video! I didn't agree 100% with Ditko and definitely NOT with Ayn Rand (who died living on Social Security, while allegedly espousing views which condemned government programs like "The New Deal" and "The Great Society!!) but Steve and I were on the same wavelength in many ways! And darn it, I LOVED his artwork!
GOOD BYE, STEVE--MAY YOU DWELL IN PARADISE!
Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby. Totally different styles. Both brilliant.
That moment when you realize Rorshach is actually a hilarious parody of Mr. A. I wonder if Moore was giggling to himself every time he was writing Rorshach.
@Jacob Wood Moore was aware that Question was a toned down version of Mr. A. Also, the black and white, right and wrong aspect of Rorshach where he does not believe things can be morally grey was inspired by Mr. A.
Alan Moore already is pissed because most people believe Rorshach was right and it is true, he was right
Yeah, Moore has spoken about The Question/Mr A and how completely insane they are and how hilarious he finds Ditko's bizarre convictions:
ruclips.net/video/3gwDnhMO8is/видео.html
@@savagetv6460 Sorry, but I could never accept Rorschach wasn't right. And I will NEVER, EVER accept Ozymandias was right.
To be honest all of the characters (except Nite Owl) were pretty problematic
I appreciate the objectiveness of the video itself. Especially considering Ditko had a perspective that can be considered terrible. But because of his contributions to many lives through his cultural contributions, we learn about his perspective and what made the man behind the contributions. I respect you, Steve Ditko, even if I disagree with your philosophy.
Goes without saying there will never be another Steve Ditko
There's plenty of neckbearded Randroids in the comics industry.
Can you name any?
Frank Miller? Chuck Dixon?
Neither of them are Objectivists, it's clear from their works. I don't know where you got that notion from.
Sorry I forgot the major Randroid pastime of Objectivism-of-the-gaps, where only things you like get the official Randroid seal of approval, while anything which shows Randroids as being a cult of obnoxious sociopaths is deemed sociopolitically impure.
Great video. One of the most objective and non-judgmental reviews of Ditko's philosophy, his contribution to comics, and his influence to the medium.
I may not agree with his "philosophy," Steve Ditko was a talented man.
Right with you
@Mark Dobzyn What? Obama.?
@Mark Dobzyn wait how did Obama get into this?
@Mark Dobzyn thats not true and has nothing to do with whats happening
@Mark D
Ah yes
The ideology that's mocked by literally everyone for being a self serving, ludicrously cartoonish, hateful, childish, narcissistic apologia that's literally spawned cults
While I thank him for the creation of spiderman,and may he rest in peace.
He would be a pain to work with,
The objectivists may say otherwise but not all people are objective.
In the world it isn't black or white, And there are so many shades of gray between them.
And personally I find the bland 'there is good, there is bad' as just that, Bland.
People miss the fact that in Hawk and Dove, it was their father, the judge, who was supposed to be the mouthpiece for Ditko. Hawk and Dove were both supposed to be be rather misguided in their world views. I also would add that a lot of people, myself included, really loved Ditko's run on Rom, perhaps especially his work on the finale. Its true that a lot of people were jarred by Sal Buscema's departure from Rom, but at the same time, Ditko's work on the series certainly had its supporters.
Wow, you really did a tremendous job on this!
Another great video from my favorite youtuber. You are underrated.
Yeah it's not a good idea to get too attached to one philosophy. In doing so you might just miss out on a whole world of possibilities. It's admirable to stand by ones convictions, but in reality without compromise you miss the whole point of life in general. The views and experiences of others make life interesting and worth living, while sameness only leads to stagnation. Creativity would dwindle to nothing in such a world.
It‘s especially not a good idea to get attached to _this_ „philosophy“
That thinking is for weak people.
@@kaboose111 You said it so explain why. I'm not saying all people by the way, just not to live by a strict narrative of my way or the highway and under no circumstances can you think differently than I do. We all want to "fit in" so to speak but that only leads to a boring an unfulfilled society on a mass scale.
@@kaboose111 do you mean successful people
So you don't stand for anything, that's what you're saying?
Great overview of Ditko's carreer and his beliefs. Im not his biiggest fan but since Spidey is my fav super hero and ASM 33 is probably one of my fav comics, then he will always have a special place in my heart.
Ditko sounds like how I was in high school...I'm really glad I changed.
lol Exactly
Exactly lol
@svin There are some quite types in high school.
Joking aside there clearly referring to his objectivist views when he was alive. Those ideas still resonate after he is dead. And there is a lot of people in there high school years that tend to gravitate toward this philosophy. I mean who does not want to be rational and objective like this philosophy claim to be?
Personally I find it full with contradictions and follows tend to justify after the fact there moral stances. It pretty nice to have a black and white moral compass, when you can change the compass heading at will.
(of course in Ditko stories he has the benefit of being the narrator so it easy to actually make the story fit the characters. The world change, not the character, as the video so well put it.)
@svin Wait... I was not even aware that we where debating if Ditko was a real person or not.
And that techneclly does not matter to what I brought up as it the ideas that was communicated by Ditko (psudonym or not) that I discussed. As well as how the narrator has the power to shape the story to fit whatever ideas they want to communicate.
Steve wasnt the problem at all, everyone else was and it's good he stuck to his beliefs instead of conform to what other people wanted from him. Marco Pierre White has a similar ideology of never selling is soul because other people want him to be some nice guy who is cool with everyone. It has nothing to do with high school, he was a grown man with beliefs similar to us all. Show some fucking respect.
Ahhhh. Clancey Brown's Luthor and Jeffrey Coombs' Question. Some of the finest voice casting ever.
Ironically Ayn Rand’s favorite author was Victor Hugo. Grey areas and redemption abound in Hugo. The shunned and the outsider and his greatest hero is technical a criminal on the lamb. I‘ve always felt that Rand gets interpreted incorrectly. Peter Parker is totally keeping to Rand by using his invention to help others, because it’s what he wants. Rand felt that altruism was the right path if one admitted he was doing it for his own happiness. Rational selfishness easily leads to altruism and doing things to benefit society, humanity and the planet; if not for the pleasure of helping others, than the fact that it helps create a healthier world for one to live. Ditto strikes me as one of those Rand followers who never understood this or the notion of redemption. Maybe he should have read Hugo as his mentor did. I’m guessing his heroes would have been a lot more interesting.
Except Peter Parker DOESNOT Do altruism fit his own happyness-
Zack Snyder an Objectivist?, that explains Everything...
Fuck it really does doesn't it? Even Batman killing. By his standards there's no one more qualified to deal out death than an exceptional billionaire. Even if the wealth was entirely inherited.
And why he was wrong for those movies
It's not at all subtle tbh
abasa-fckin-lutely
I found this video specifically critiquing zack snyder and pointing out that objectivism is likely why the dcue movies and watchmen movie sucked so much
ruclips.net/video/hdxk7dB9yeU/видео.html
I recall a gray ink wash story Steve did for one of the B&W Warren mags that was simply amazing. VERY illustrative and realistic, unlike anything I had ever seen from him. He was a very inspired and skilled draftsman.
If you like the Question or Mr. A, pick up the Fly #6 (Archie, 1983) where Ditko creates the Crooked Man, an objectivist who brings criminals to a haunted house to punish them.
Thank you for this. I thought you were fair and I learned a lot. When I was a kid, (I am now 71), Ditko and Kirby were my favorite comic book artists; men not only of great talent but conviction and character.
Ditko's figure drawing had a wonderful dynamism to them, even when the backgrounds were nonexistent. Good episode, again!
"No "Buts"! My policies rule my property. I decide on the uses and disposal of my earned property! If you and Henry want to promote your causes, earn, create your own paper. Now GET OUT!" writes the man who spent his entire career trying to make other people publish his philosophy.
This was a really good episode. This is the most thorough information on Steve Ditko that I’ve seen. Well done man! Please keep up the good work!
I don't necessarily agree with all of Steve Ditko's philosophies, but on some level I respect that he always adhered to his own personal beliefs. It wasn't like he was some psycho radical. He just stuck to his guns.
more of a sociopath than a psychopath
@@salum75 No
It's easy to stick to one's personal beliefs when those beliefs include "I can never, ever be wrong about anything". That's what's so attractive about so-called "Objectivism" for so many - it allows one to stop thinking, and justify reacting emotionally.
I agree, although I feel if it harms people, THAT'S a whole different thing, which luckily Ditko never did.
@@Werrf1 = ....while telling everyone else it is THEY who are thinking emotionally!
Well researched, you filled in some details I didn't know.
I always thought of Mr. A as what the Punisher would be like as a clerical worker, "I totally knew you would get paper cut, but I said nothing." It was a lot of text for very little pay off.
The thing about killing someone is, you're not just killing who they are but everything they could be to the people around them and the world at large.
That's one of the things I'm trying to perfect in my own stories. All too often in fiction, Death is either overused or cheated with resurrections.
Death should never lose its meaning, as the sudden destruction of a soul, should impact how the story is told onwards.
Clint Eastwood said it best in Unforgiven, that killing somebody "takes away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."
I was never a big fan of Ditko's art style (John Romita Sr. was always my favorite Spiderman artist even though I recognize Ditko's contribution that Romita built on). It's not bad, by any means...and I learned to appreciate it as time went on. But I gotta say: His design work is brilliant. SO MANY iconic characters...truly some of the best in comics.
Yep. Romita all the way for me too. I personally find Ditko's art an eye sore.
Well. I gave up comics long, long ago. Your channel has answered a number of questions I hadn't thought about in decades.
He's just as morality grey as everyone else, he just doesn't have the balls to face it
that's funny coming from people who reeee about justice when cops kill someone. where's that gray morality bitch?
@@savagetv6460 lol
@@savagetv6460 rules for thee but not for me
This was as good and concise a summary of Ayn Rand and Objectivism as I have encountered.
The Lee, Ditko team was and always will be my favorite ! I was always chomping at the bit waiting for their next issues. Two more legends are gone.
"Team"
This might've been my first CT video and it honestly reminds me why comics and their creators are so fascinating. Maybe my favorite video of the channel.
This was truly informative. Glad I clicked on it. I think the stories of the comic creators are more interesting often than the comic book stories! thank you!
I think there's a false value placed on sticking to your beliefs no matter what. That's no different than blind, unquestioning faith. Part of the advantage of having a brain that can process complex ideas is that you can realize there are better ones out there, or that the ones you have are flawed. It doesn't speak ill of your integrity to shrug off old, less complete and logical beliefs for newer, better ones. The only time 'selling out' applies is if you go against a professed belief in exchange for some form of advantage, and even that really doesn't speak of integrity as much as it speaks towards your belief in self-interest not being logically aligned with your other beliefs.
I also think that Objectivism is kinda like an extension of Calvinism. Those who are successful are by default deserving of their success, and those who fail are not to be pitied, but to be shrugged off as losers, because clearly they themselves are to blame for their failure.
Basically, if you fail, you just didn't work hard enough. Loser.
Yeah, sometimes sticking to your beliefs works, like with captain America, but usually it just keeps people in the same old outdated beliefs and prejudices as before
Cringe.
@@zusty9589 It’s 2022, let cringe culture die
Sticking to your beliefs doesn't mean you can't evolve intellectually.
Great essay! That was a very well ressearched video.
I very much respect Ditko for sticking to his convictions and truly believing in his own philosophy and not wavering, its irrelevant whether I agree or disagree with his philosophy just that he has one and actually follows through. Have a good day
ComicTropes is the most fun site on youtube, bar none! Thanks for all you do Chris!
Excellent work! One of the best looks at Steve Ditko and his work I have seen...
Very well Done. Steve Ditko deserves to be Studied.
i was sad to hear of Steve's passing. The few Stranges Tales with Dr Strange Ditko art i have are some of my most prized comic books, i also have to say i do like the line art in the Mr A stories.
Mark Lawrence I've always wanted to own original comic art, but even smaller items are pricey.
Mighty Raccoon yeah, but to own a piece of artwork before it became the comic is what I'd like (if that made any sense lol).
There is a seller on ebay that has a lot of the original cel work used to produce the comicbooks from the silver age - i'd like to know a bit more about the process to be honest but the work is interesting to look at: try searching for "Original Production Art STRANGE TALES" there's some classic covers and art there.
Mark Lawrence I've always wanted animation cells from Filmation, esp ST:TAS and Flash Gordon.
It might be bad to say but judging by Mr A. I'm really glad ditko stop writing spider man and hawk and dove. Mr A is a lunatic with no idea of context. Just an inflexible psychotic philosophy.
Superheroes are supposed to act without context in an Objectivist Justice POV, as their emotions could lead them to failure and misniterpretation. An Objectivist hero must be resolute and uncompromisable to oppose to slimy villains and their attempts at deception. You can't bend the will of a 100% convinced man, It's his way or nothing else. It's an utopian view on society, sure, but it's one of the bases of the modern Superhero values. it's what makes a superhero stand apart from the masses.
Only crazy people act without context. Even laws have context like you can't kill people unless your attacked with this amount of force or if you were in this dire emotional state. As a great jedi once aid only a sith deals in absolute.(Corny I know but true) No one is fully good or evil. Sometimes good people make bad decision. Sometimes good people are forced to make bad decisions. Example your family is staving and the only way to feed them is by stealing. Do you steal food to feed your children who depend on you. Who's the bad guy in that situation? Good and evil are abstract concepts created by humans that change from place to place. Where I live you can't have sex with a girl under 16. But in other places you can marry 10 year olds. Which law is right? Which law is good? Mr A is a crazy person because he can't accept the simple truth that good and evil are arbitrary concepts created by man and ever changing. Not only from place to place but from time period to time period.
You basically just unironically described a complete sociopath. Like, literally the clinical definition.
@@EvilSandwich who me?
Lol no. The other guy in the thread.
Fantastic video. Thanks for bringing some special insight into Ditko and Lee. Interesting to see the stark dichotomy between Ditko's curvy, often phantasmagorical drawing style and character conception and the rigid intellectual philosophy he followed.
Reading the summary if Ayn Rand books comes across like a satire of what objectivism is about, but then you realize that's exactly what objectivism is.
I just always think of Alan Moore's response when asked about Rorschach's beliefs and objectivism something like "Never compromise your morals no matter what? Not even in the face of Armageddon? That's the way a child views the world, that's something a 15 year old kid would think was deep and philosophical. How ridiculous. Do you know what I think when somebody tells me that they were inspired by Rorschach or they can relate to him? I think "Get the F away from me you freak, I hope I never see you ever again." "
@@Elfenlied8675309 the funny thing is Rorschach is the character people resonate with the most because he wouldn’t compromise in the face of Armageddon (or in this case, a malignant narcissist murdering tens of thousands of people for flimsily justified reasons).
Nobody told Ditko to subscribe to such a flawed philosophy… I feel like Stan made the correct decision. He seemed to be a genuinely unpleasant person to work with.
Further evidence that Ditko couldn’t have plotted Spider-Man all by himself, otherwise it would’ve been some sort of Mr. A drywall comic, lol!
Ditko isn't an idea guy but he's great at visualizing other people's ideas. Lee and Ditko were both needed for Spider-Man
Only recently have I learned about how much Stan Lee did and how much she didn't do behind the scenes, but I don't really agree with Steve's objectivist direction. It just seems like it's too extreme a philosophy for me to follow.
Gosh I can't believe Ditko felt this way he's still amazing though love his work!!!
I love how you stay respectful for Ditko's legacy. Much love from Brazil. :)
Excellent episode! You especially deserve praise for being so fair and balanced in your discussion of Steve Ditko’s philosophy.
I am so ever glad Ayn Rand's nonsense doesn't have a foothold outside of the States.
Guess again, Chester: qz.com/17881/why-ayn-rand-outsells-karl-marx-in-india-by-16-to-1-and-what-else-she-tells-us-about-countries/
Why can't it die like the mistake it always was?
Crowley9 aren’t you asshole
Maxism is for retards
Aren't we so smug in that notion.
Seriously though, is arrogance some sort of European vitrue? You people are *dripping* with it when you speak poorly of places you have zero personal knowledge of.
Pretty good Stan imitation!
Wow. I had no idea Mr. Ditko was so such an interesting fella. Now I want to pick up and read some Mr. A comics. Thanks for this great video. I'm subcribed to your channel now. 😎👍
Outstanding Video!! I was a teenager in the early 80's and never was able to understand why Steve Ditko didn't go on to become a big name and kind of slowly faded away. Fast Forward to 2008, I discovered Atlas Shrugged due to the similarity with national politics at that time. How interesting that Steve Ditko was an Objectivist and couldn't tolerate Stan Lees "Romanticism" No wonder they made such a good team! I can just imagine the arguments! In fact thinking about it now, most of the early Spider man stories seem to be one long argument between Stan Lee and Steve. I mean Spider man taking money at the wrestling contest and then not stopping the robber I bet that idea came from Steve. Then Stan Lee answers with the consequence of the robber killing Uncle Ben, take that! Steve!
Very well researched and presented. The Question is my favorite character currently and I hope he is written in the future as the Question from JLU. Moore and Ditko are my favorite writers.
It's funny to me that in retrospect Stan so perfectly embodied objectivest ideas of evil takers stealing credit for the work of others and glorifying himself at their expense.
Mr A was so moral to him, but to me he seems like one of those morally questionable villains with good intentions who believe in doing nessisary evil to achieve a greater good. Maybe like Unit.
So punishing and killing evil itself, the kind of evil that gave birth to Jeffrey Dahmer, killing monsters like him so that innocent men & women can live peacefully without worry, you call that evil?
Mr. A didn't kill an innocent man or woman in cold blood. Did you even listen to a word or read about the whole point, of why Mr. A is the way he is.
Mr. A doesn't let evil succeed, the kind of evil that does the sickest thing to please themselves, to see bloodshed, to ruin a family, to murder a child, to destroy an innocent person's life, to see humanity eradicated, Mr. A fights against that kind of evil.
Good is good. Evil is evil. Mr. A is Mr. A.
Deny it all you want, but if you are ignorant of thought to not bother to listen and pay attention to what you were watching, then you are you. I can't change you, and I don't want to. There is no point even if I tried.
Stay ignorant, let evil win if you want. Who would blame you and who would care?
I'm not an objectivist either, even if I was, I don't bother with the existence of those who would compromise if it meant saving their own ass at the cost of an innocent life, no matter how brutal or sickening their death.
I know who I am and you know who you are. Point being, don't be ignorant, and listen to what is being said. If you use your brain a lot more, you'd notice a lot more than you should.
Oof. I respect what Ditko did for comics, I respect his talent, and I respect him as a person. But there is no way in hell that I can respect or agree with his views. As soon as I heard Ayn Rand brought up, I immediately went "oh, no.".
I know I’m late to the show (just recently discovered your channel), but I wanted to say how impressed I am with your material. I’ve been enjoying many of the episodes you’ve uploaded and I appreciate your hard work. Thank you!
I had look for Ditko stories since I was a kid. I like to draw and always find that, except for Deadpool, every superhero has the writer as the main creator while the look of the superhero make him everything. So when I found the penciller of my favourite hero I just start to consume everything, which is not much honestly, about STeve Ditko. And I recently have an answer for his quitting by the nephew of Steve Ditko in an interview. He thinks that the problem was about money. And it make sense if you see the objectivism stuff. Ditko was writting and drawing the issues of spiderman, but he only get paid for drawing. He and Stan weren't enemies, they talk years later, when ditlo return to marvel. But Steve didn't wanted to draw spiderman, he said that he put too much effort making him and when he left the character was ruined. The nephew of ditko also said that Dr. Strange was his favourite character from marvel, or the one who had a special place in his heart.
I see you have an Akira panel in the background. Have you ever thought about talking about manga heavy hitters?
The hero in an objectivist story is actually the villain in the real world.
RIP, Steve Ditko...
This was incredibly fascinating, thanks for sharing. I took out my old issue of Charlton Blue Beetle; you’ve given me an added appreciation of this era of his work.
Hi Chris, I am a new subscriber and found your channel via some other comic channels I watch. I started collecting comics in the early 90's but then stopped after high school before joining the military. After I retired from active duty last year, I got back into collecting and absolutely love being back to reading and seeing awesome comic books. I really enjoy your videos and your natural comedy when you make them. I look forward to more great content!
Great video! Ditko really lived The Fountainhead. When Jonathan Ross made In Search of Ditko, Allen Moore set up a meeting between them. Ditko said very little and only displayed several comics to him. Much like when Howard Roark was on trail for the Stoddard Temple. When he had to plea his case to the judge he only showed photos of the temple. Also... I wonder if Ditko’s friend Eric Stanton also was a Fountainhead fan. His daughter Amber Stanton said her dad helped design Spider Man but gave the ideas freely and wanted nothing in return. Like when Roark helped his friend Peter Keating design the Cosmo-Slotnick building. And told his friend not to worry because he gave the ideas freely and wanted nothing in return. Not money or recognition. Your thoughts?
It seems like a contradiction to have a superhero story that has these "objectivist" views. While the character may have solid ideas on what they view as good and evil, there would be no motivating force to have them go out into the world to enforce those views. To do so would make them doing what they do for the benefit of others... unless they are being paid to do the work, which opens a whole other matter. There's a particular Rand quote that comes to mind where she flat-out asks why she should give a damn about other people (paraphrasing, of course). And besides, characters without any flaws or internal conflict would be boring as hell. I can see why Stan Lee didn't like the guy if he went around preaching this kind of thing all the time. Plus... we got John Romita Sr on the book after him, so win-win for all of us.
didnt you see the video he said mr A does what he does since allowing a society with evil to exist without doing nothing about it is being complicit in this evil and being untrue to ones principle (he wanted for his own benefit to not have evil people around) so he fights them but does nothing to save criminal
It's because it's not accurate to say an objectivist can never help other people.
Wow. Great episode Chris. I love your channel and this is one of my if my favorite ones. I look forward to all you newer shows. Been watching for awhile but I need to go back and dig out these GEMS !! Keep up the great work wonderful show
Happy to find this channel and learn about such wise and fascinating Persons like Steve Ditko and there works. Thank You Veve!!!