I have a forged internal B16A with Wiseco pistons and Eagle rods and Cylinder Support Systems installed to close the deck, but I haven't run it yet. I did this same thing on a bone stock non-VTEC B18B1 that I tore down and rebuilt with ACL bearings and NPR rings and it made 408 whp reliably for years and was really fast.
Big Turbo EJ8 what all made it make 400? Those internals and a turbo? Seems real common, close to stock and a big turbo. Then you start swapping cranks and shit... Honda’s seem like too much fun
I remember reading about this a LONG time ago in one of the tuning magazines. I'm pretty sure I still have it. Awesome to know you were the one behind that write up. Was way cool to read about back then. So many myths flying around back then.
I remember this too! I remember my dad being a Chevy guy said "son. You need one of these honda Bees. Look at this stock bottom end power" lol 👍 good shit
Love all the content but especially the Honda stuff. I've made 612 on a stock b18b sleeve with CP 9-1 Pistons and scat h-beam rods with a VTEC head. I have a 84 1/2 mm la sleeved GSR which has no cylinder reenforcement. That motor has 10 to 1 wiseco pistons, Manley turbo tuff rods. It made 847 to the wheels. It was dynoed on a mustang Dyno. Both of the engines were extremely reliable and the GSR is still in my race car.
Great test, I was vary surprised when you posted something about Honda’s a couple weeks ago. I’ve ran a stock bottom end b16a with 10psi about 50000 miles 260hp and the thing just wants more, after watching this I’d be happy gapping rings and shooting for 350. Any more Honda stuff you have I’ll watch 👍
@@ikaros21 if you're referring to the car on your profile an old school Honda weighs around 1200lbs less than that. Power to weight ratio would be 11.6lbs per hp and Civic hatch around 6.5lbs per hp... That 300whp Civic will leave your car in the dust... That's why... 300whp Civic hatchback's or even coupe's will run into the 11's with a good driver and slicks.. and fwd need slicks for the quarter mile because their 60' is so shitty without them. Rwd doesn't have that handicap. Take both cars for a roll race and regular street tires work fine for the HP fwd setups.
Videos like this over years have given me not only the confidence, but the crystal clear understanding of how things work in the engine bay ... dont have any family or friends with a background of mechanic work AT ALL!!! Strictly self and internet taught, ive had many project cars and bikes up to know that I learned how to work on thanks to videos JUST LIKE THIS .. thank you for Amazing content truly informative and appreciative and im sure many others like me are !
that's due to the thinner cylinder walls from b20 having larger bore same issues with LS engines why boosted applications run the small displacement 4.8L
I had a 1989 clean ford probe gt with the old f2t when I was young. Did head stead, ring gap, water meth, 2000cc injectors, I think it was a master power gt45, on Megas squirt. Ran 28 psi forever, all my friends said it would never last and I ran that setup for 5 years with absolutely no issues. It's all about the tune people.
@@PeterFeltersnatch852 I never had it on a dyno. I did a base tune from one of my friends that had close to the same setup. Then I just street tuned it with a wideband.
When your watching “fastest car” on Netflix and get bored, so you switch to RUclips to Richards newest video and then Richard pops up on Netflix with Chad lol.
I'd be curious to see a Big bang subaru! They're famously blowy-uppy, how much cold Richard Holdener make? I suspect they don't have quite enough ring gap stock, and often times people are trying to shove way too much boost in at low speeds.
that's exactly what i was thinking, hopefully we get to see him run an sti engine to its limits and maybe elaborate more on the famous ring land failure
Thanks for all the different varieties of platforms you are putting up lately. I subbed when you had around a thousand subscribers and it has gone nuts over the last few months. Almost at 50 thousand subscribers. You put in all the hard work, and we appreciate it. Can't wait for more videos to come. Thanks again Richard. Cheers.
now a days lots of high powered honda builds use CSS cylinder support system they convert your block to a closed deck, otherwise a sleeved block like darton MID or LA sleeves are also a good option. Ive heard around 450+whp stock sleeves start to be a gamble some might get away with it and some might crack a sleeve, of course a few pulls on the dyno doesnt really show how long it will last over a longer period of time.
Superstreet did a b16a with arias pistons stock rods 24psi 507whp. I had a b16a2 12psi beat it up for about a year daily driving till 2 pistons cracked just like you explained. I learned something from your video bigger ring gaps, thanks
Running a Honda MPFI converted SOHC no-vtec D15B2 block, JE 9.4-1 forged pistons, eagle rods, full Manley and Isky racing valve train. Factory crank, cam, and ECU with a manifold pressure bypass set up on 8psi 6850rpm limiter. No smoke, no issues, 27-32 MPG 24000 miles so far. Would love to see what an 89-91 D15 motor is capable of on your big bang program!
Pretty cool, it's amazing how much power these stock engines can actually make. Honestly I think I would have taken that original small turbo setup you got going. The power and torque curve was much nicer and smoother. And for street use I suspect the car might even be faster, because you'll be pulling longer and sooner rather than it all rushing up at the tail end. At a drag strip where you can stay in the high RPM ranges you probably get a different result. Great video keep up the great work
The bone-stock B16A record, last time I saw, was 560whp. Made it 2-3 runs, then cracked the ringlands (no gap). That's stock from the throttle body to the exhaust gasket. Comparing a chassis dyno b16 (155whp with same mods) to yours (185hp), that means ~650hp. They are pretty crazy little rice burners. The K-series are even wilder, but they have aweful transmissions when you feed it so much torque.
Hey Rich! Been here since you had 1200 subs. You are almost at 50k. But you deserve 2 million plus. If you are ever in Nc, your welcome to come by and have a beer.
The 2.4 Honda’s (k24a2) come with a good head from the factory. But it’s going to be limited by the rods bending at over 800hp. How much power will the stock 2.3 ford rods hold?
Dylan Bellville I’ve heard... crank rods block are good to 600 with the actual turbo coupe pistons, I just wanted to see him destroy those numbers like he has every other motor in existence lol
An engine I am always curious about, is the Suzuki H27A V6, found in the 98-06 XL-7, and the 05-07 Grand Vitaras. They are all aluminum, closed deck blocks, and supposedly very light (~260 lbs, long block). I have *heard* that the crank is forged, but have never had opportunity to confirm that rumour.
Excellent test! I was wondering if you’re using any specific type of knock monitoring system on these engines. I’ve done some of my own dyno testing, pushing bone stock Honda engines (B18 non Vtec) into the 20+psi territory on several different turbos, all on 93 octane fuel. I know better fuel will make more power and less likely to detonate, but wanted to push the limits of standard pump gas and see what I could get away with. Also, how much ignition timing were you running on the last run of 17psi on the 57mm?
1996 B18C Type R, arp headstuds, oem head gasket, e85 and 19 degrees of total timing. 410/277 @ 14.5psi eBay t3/t04e .63 exhaust housing. I road race it at that power level, zero failures.
I swear the next time someone ask me about what should they mod in their hot rod engine, turbo or not, I'll scream: " THE M.F PISTON RING GAP, THAT'S WHAT ! Just make it plenty bigger. Patron Saint of ALL Boosted Engines and Punisher of Crooked Facts , Richard Holdener said and proved so already. " 👌🏻😊👍🏻 Looking forward to next video. U ROCK. 🤘🏻
Testing idea for you, with catch cans and different number/diameter hoses. I’d be curious to see someone hook up a pressure gauge to see how much actual pressure is in the valve train with no vent vs ventilation and what diameter lines.
Keep in mind that with race fuel they can run much more aggressive timing, than can be done with typical premium pump fuel. Also the lack of any accessories and drive components makes a massive difference.
I can personally tell you that my forged LSVTEC (B18B1 1.8L non-VTEC block with CP pistons and Eagle rods with a B16B Civic Type-R head with cams, MLS head gasket, ARP head studs, etc) makes 612 whp with the possibility of making more. It runs on E85 and has a Garrett GTX3582R dual ball bearing turbo. The limiting factor of power is the turbo only had a .63 AR exhaust housing. I just bought a 1.06 AR housing for it. The only sleeve support I have is a blockguard. I also have a Cylinder Support Systems installed JDM B16A in my basement with Wiseco pistons and Eagle rods as a backup.
I have k24a1 with eBay gt3076 /0.82 rear and 98 octane in Aus , 20psi , 11.4deg timing and no knock showing in any logs .rev limit 7100rpm. 10.8-11.1afr. Engine broke the piston at the gudgeon after a few months . Sump had the rod, bits of piston, gudgeon pin and lower oil control rings all in the sump . I assume the failure was lack of piston strength and everything else was there to ensure it lived. I can’t see anything else contributing to my failure ? Thoughts ? Do a k24a1 Richard . Great channel by the way👍
@@mareksumguy1887 I disagree. Richard is a trailblazer and has extremely deep knowledge on engine dynamics, this is just a really old test that he's revisiting, likely to cater to a wider range of viewers. Most of his clients these days are V8 owners, so he doesn't visit 4 cylinder stuff much anymore. You can't fault him for that.
@@mareksumguy1887 This test appears in a book he published in 2003, it wasn't done last week. This stuff was the best available at the time. I'd love to see him re-do it with a modern turbo, but as I said, he's got his hands full with V8 stuff. That's where the money is.
@@richardholdener1727 I own a 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta as well, which could be a good test. I know those engines are available at wrecking yards from crashes. 2014 to 2017 Fiesta SFE package. Ford showed them at 200hp in an open wheel car in Europe a few years ago. Chris Harris tested it. I'd really like to see how far it can go before total destruction. I'd bet closer to 400hp.
Awesome video! And as far as i know to really break passed 500hp safety is to css your block and beef up the rods.. but really thats it. Also springs and retainers if you wanna rev to the moon, but definitely not needed for 7k rpm
Keep the honda/acura goodness coming buddy! I enjoy your videos and love hearing the conclusion. Thanks for the time you put in for videos for us to watch.
I was curious why you chose a "medium" size compressor and a .63 hot size. The 57mm 3076r was always the 400hp pump gas turbo i used ten years ago. Maybe try a modern billet 67mm to 70mm wheel in an anti-surge housing with a hot side around .9-1.0 a/r? Maybe gap it at 22mm top and 24mm second? I wouldn't be surprised to see 700hp.
I know its really obscure but I would love to see an audi 2.7tt on the dyno. Some guys run the factory short blocks routinely over 800hp. The 3.0l engine in the family get a bad rap, myths of cylinder walls splitting at 400hp. They are also the most common, the whole car can be had for less than $500 and has the best heads.
Would love to see this done with modern setup, I’m a dyno tuner, and I’ve gone well into the 400fwhp range on dead stock B16’s without any drama at all. Shops locally have gone 500fwhp standard engines totally untouched at north of 20psi. On E85 with GTX3076 turbo’s generally! Would be interested to see a modern redo.
Richard Holdener considering with a GTX3076 they’ll go 350fwhp on 11-12psi on E85. I’d doubt very much that it would require into the 30psi range to do 500whp. Just be interested to see a redo with modern parts.
Great test. Given how cheap the insurance is for forged rods and pistons are these days. If you're pulling a honda motor apart to increase ring gap. You'd be well advised to get a 0.5mm overbore, forged pistons and rods. Money well spent. Also for context, Given the fuel and intercooling used, it's not really preresentitive of what can be achieved with a street driven car. No-one is goinv to be running around daily on Leaded 118MON fuel. So the timing on a street motor will be significantly less, with a corresponding reduction in power produced. Also these tests are rather short short (5-6 seconds.) When loaded for long periods of time (say circuit racing,) fatigue can and does set in on weaker rods (that might happily survive a couple of dyno pulls.) MCM found this out the hard way on their 4G64 2.4L with far less power. It was fine on the dyno, and fine for a little while on the track, but eventually a rod said enough, is enough and bent. Still and interesting test, to determine the limits.
I had a dodge avenger with a 420a in high school. First car I ever turbocharged. Was completely stock for the most part other then map spacer, fuel pump, and the usual. But I ran that thing hard for 3 years before I sold it and never had any issues. She loved boost.
@Budget Boost DIY no that wasn't me but I was on that forum a lot. I had a 10.1 fmu and I did the cold start injector that was on a pressure switch. It turned on after 10psi of boost and added more fuel. I made a dual in tank pump setup, I used two pumps from a gst. I miss that car. I hear now all the srt4 guys are running 420a heads on there 2.4.
According to honda-tech, b series blocks can take around 400 to high 400's safely before cracking a sleeve. Results are varied. But that is the general safe long term limit until you have to think about upgrading the sleeves. Yes people have made more but at that point its a ticking time bomb. Stock cast pistons cannot handle detonation and will shatter. Ask me how I know LOL. Forged pistons are softer so they can handle detonation without breaking. Similar to standard vs impact sockets. On 93 with stock pistons you should stay around low 300. That's what I'm making now 320 whp stock b18a bottom. With forged pistons the limit is still around 450 cause now the weak link is the sleeves. So you can do a few things such as cement block filler which would compromise the cooling and is for only drag i believe. Devcon which is similar but i think has better cooling there's some youtube videos out there. Then next in price is CSS. This uses the stock sleeves and a perfectly fitted block guard. It is rated up to 700 whp and there's also a high hp version that is 800 whp. I've seen 900 whp css vids here. Then the best is sleeves but also the most expensive. Also Dart blocks are very good but banned in some drag racing leagues. So basically it comes down to the open deck making the sleeves weak. It allows the sleeves to move which eventually cracks it. They always crack at cylinder 3. Also at high boost you will need arp head studs because the oem bolts will not be able to hold the head down so it will lift. open deck - weakest, best cooling cause surrounded by water, cheapest to manufacture semi closed - now the walls have some support. lots of turbo motors built this way i believe fully closed -best. this is the reason the Supra 2JZ is such a strong motor stock. Because it comes with a FULLY closed iron deck. That thing is built like a tank. www.enginelabs.com/news/supporting-your-cylinders-open-semi-closed-or-closed-deck/ So once you understand the limitations of deck types, fuel, pistons, rods then you can see the power limits. Most people get H beam eagle rods which can handle 900 hp with ARP 2000's. Be careful with imitation h beams with weak rod bolts. Some can only handle 400 whp. There are many rod bolt options. Ok I think I wrote too much. Imma head out lol
I know a lot of people would love to see how far you can take a b series with CSS block (cylinder support system) and simple valve spring upgrades. A big bang 4 cylinder. I can almost guarantee you'd see 1000+hp with a css block pistons/rods and valve spring upgrade.
I would like to add there is a different type of big bang engine. It's when you take an even numbered cylinder engine and fire the companion cylinders togther, like a 4 cylinder that fires like a big twin.
You had about 100hp left in it, which is where I've taken the B16A2. It holds very well. I would say you need a better tuning system to begin with, a Hondata S300, not an S200/S100, those are very very old systems... maybe 20years or more. It is completely not uncommon to make 450whp/500crankHP, all you have to do is google it and you'll find plenty. the LS can make 400whp/450crankHP, and LS-VTEC also hits 450whp/500crankHP. The block you have to worry about is the B20, which is good to 300whp/350crankHP, and B20VTEC 350whp/400crankHP. Push it past all those numbers I mention, another 5-10%, and it won't last long. So, essentially, your bad tuning turned your B16 into a sad lowly B20-vtec motor. :( :( :( Lastly, I would NEVER open up a motor and not replace the pistons and rods, at the same time as the ring gap and headstuds... which is another thing. The headstuds can be reused once from the Honda Factory, per the Honda Service Manual. If you are changing pistons and rods to forged, then why not, throw in the better head studs, since as a package, you can now go way more boost/power. In the beginning of the video 3:45 you claimed you were going to simply change the ring gap, and not touch anything else, but then you didn't do that. I would have loved to find out if you can truly stick with the stock pistons and rods and make more power than is typical... but after seeing your tuning system, i lost hope anyway. whp=hp measured at the wheels, when a car is put on a chassis dyno crankHP=hp measured at the crank, when the engine is put on an engine dyno, as was claimed to have been used in this video.
Would you do a 100psi boost test? Methanol, prepped stock bottom end, ring gap, custom cam...all on a Chevy 350 Vortec! Enough turbo and fuel to split whatever in half👍
@@richardholdener1727 C'mon Rich......by your own admission about what the internet has said about what will work or not on an engine, how ya gonna know? Let's be honest, nobody has thrown that kind of boost at anything less than a tractor pull diesel or an all out, small displacement, purpose built import drag engine. But the fact remains that above 20-30 psi boost, most folks never think of going beyond that. 100 pounds of boost is absurd and impractical, but it is an adventure! And methanol can cool things down enough to make things happen.
@@dj4monie C'mon man, the easiest way to get that kind of boost is to do the math. There are formulas on Garrett Turbo's site to make the calculations. Most of the big players in the racing world run well above 4 bar ( roughly 60 psi ) all the time, with guys like Boostin Performance putting 80 psi through their Mitsubishi ( single turbo, methanol ). It can be done. It's all math and money. The 100# test is only for dyno purposes..you'd have to have a proper chassis to hook that power potential. If you take a 350hp Vortec, which is at atmospheric pressure, and add 1 bar of boost ( 14.7 psi ) theoretically you can double the power if the matching volume of fuel is there. Now add 6.5 bar worth of boost, with the air volume, fuel volume and air temperature control, you should have 6.5 times the power. It can be done. Will it survive? Doubt it, but it would be fun to watch.
Id like to see a Honda D series Big Bang test, just cause it’s a tiny single cam engine and people usual just tear them out to go B series thinking they can’t make power!.. let’s prove those people wrong!.. lmao
Many people have been successful including myself running 650whp on stock sleeves. That’s with running h beam rods and forged pistons... I have seen a few gsr engines reach similar power levels completely stock with just head studs but seem to only last 10-15 passes down the strip
The rumor i had heard was only that the sleeves were the weakest point. Up to 500hp. I cannot speak for stock internals as my engine is fully built but i do run stock sleeves at about 17-20lbs. I have had no issues, but in the back of my mind i always have that thought to be safe and stay where im at (512whp)
Ok quick question, you said in other videos that as long as you “GAP” the piston rings with a perfect tune and proper fuel it will take the beating. On a B16 with “PROPER RING GAP” what do you think will be the breaking point of stock pistons??? Last question is this… Factory OEM B16 top ring gaps maximum service limit is 0.014” inch. Are you suggesting going over the OEM service limit on stock rings like 0.020” inch on 81mm stock bore???? So basically I can just yank out my stock pistons and rods, re gap the OEM rings to 0.020” and boost reliably to 300-400whp???? Yes?
@@richardholdener1727 so basically on stock pistons I can crack open the stock block, pull out all the pistons and re gap the top rings to 0.009” of an inch OVER the “Recommended Factory service limit” of 0.014”????? What adverse effects would happen to the engine if I go 0.009” over the service limit??? Would I burn more oil, smoking, or loss of compression???
Usually when rods break NA, they break under tension at the top on the exhaust stroke. There usually isn't enough squeeze on the piston to compression fail about any rod without boost or spray. Some older engines have cast rods, crazy I know, but they give up the ghost in spectacular fashion sometimes only 1000rpm above the factory Rev limit. If you break a rod NA, and it's a dedicated NA engine, usually that calls for lighter pistons and pins. But to answer your question, probably not. NA engines of the same displacement put about the same amount of heat into the rings. Yes there will be some difference between an alcohol sprint car and a taxi, but even pickups get worked hard and have the ring gap from factory to pull the rated load up mountains. The difference your going to need before you pinch rings in a Nascar stocker and a guy moving his camper across California is tiny.
This video got me thinking, because years ago guys would say big blocks couldn’t handle boost with stock pistons, because the pistons would break, and they can’t handle RPM’s because the rods would break or bend. I wasn’t thinking about the fact that the rods are cast. Thanks guys!
How about a video going into detail on the sizing of compound turbo setups? Get a number of options for both the primary and secondary turbos and really get into the details.
The LS compound was just a gee wiz exercise. Given the potential with single or twins, There is no reason 99% of LS motors out there need compound turbos. Excellent idea for diesel applications
@@richardholdener1727 You've done LS/V8 stuff to death, and you're right. They don't warrant a serious dive into compound turbos as much as a smaller cube engine. However, the engine isn't the point of my request. I want to see real world results of compound turbo combinations on the same engine, whatever that engine may be. I wanna see a 2 or 3 liter engine make low to moderate boost just above idle, and carry that all the way to at least its factory redline. Or maybe that's just not feasible? It would depend on the turbo sizing, wastegate strategy, etc. I bet you could do it, and she'd a lot of light on what it actually takes to make a good compound setup. Maybe you want to go nuts and make all the power up top but still have nearly NA response... let's see the possibilities here.
I run E23 on my NA d16y8 with automatic transmission... Accel 11076 ignition coil, NGK blue super mag cables, NTK O2 sensor, E3 spark plugs, brass terminals cap n' rotor, K&N panel air filter, OEM head gasket, ARP cylinder head stud bolts and a full rebuild cylinder head, stock ECU. Amazing... But I f my mixture goes to e25 performance goes down the drain
Ive been giving new life to old stuff most my life. I reuse almost everything if i can an its like anything or even us,well blow up or go crazy if pushed to much.
The only problem with a lab dyno vs real world is there is no resistance on the engine, no load, such as the weight of the car, on flat ground or going up hill. My tuner said dont try to pull up hills in 4th or 5th gear because u add alot of resistance/work to the engine. This causes more pressure needed and more heat generated.. my stock b16a has a 57 trim and dynoed on rollers to 278whp. On 9lbs of boost. 190lbs of torque. But he did say heat is your biggest enemy. If building boost only go full petal, to keep it rich enough to avoid the heat... but yea this little 1.6 pulls very hard now. It sounds amazing too it spools loud and has flutter and a bov... its fucking sweet lol
Great stuff Richard. Very impressed how capable all these motors are. Learning so much. Question- if you build a NA motor but are considering boost Down the road approximately 8-10 psi should you ring gap before or wait till you install boost and then ring gap?
I'd love to see a big bang SR20DE - very cheap and plentiful in FWD Nissans, and there seems to be a lot of different opinions on what fails first under boost on unopened motors. Some swear the rods fail at as little as 300hp, others run motors with the same rods out to 400+ without apparent issue.
Love these test, I know it cost a lot of money but maybe down the road you could do a test like this where you test the limits of stock engines that people comment you could test? My test for you would be the toyota 2uz 4.7L, they have weaker rods than the early 1uz but always wanted to see if its the engine fault or the people attempting to tune it.
You guys are awesome and have a lot of really really good info others don’t share in this video👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 I would like to see the actual pulls with split screen of the info so we can see the blow by at higher rpm ect ect. But I love the video
As far as the b18 and stock parts, I always had issues with smashing ringlands and blowby manifesting. I never changed the ring gap I'll admit [in most cases] As far as that motor, pistons are the weak point's. They can make good power.
I have seen 2 b16a2 turbo setups with untouched motor internals .both were past the 400whp mark and ran great for a long time without adjusting looser ring gap..i wonder if this motor had sticking rings or an intermittent injector in that hole that broke the ringland
Depends on the apex seals. 1mm are super low friction super thin seals and push out easily. 2mm came standard on the turbo motor and 3mm is the standard now for any rebuild because they don’t cost anymore than 2mm and the larger shoulder keeps it Square with the face of the combustion chamber.
It's all a matter of eccentric shaft flex, and the torsional rigidty of the keg. Shaft flex means the rotors are going to hit the housings and kill them. You can either clearance the rotors, or get the eccentric shaft kit that includes an additional shaft bearing in the center plate (13b). As far as rigidity of the keg, you can dowel it, stud it, etc. Modern metallurgy being what it is, the main concerns are no longer apex seals.
@@michaelrodgers6559 doweling and bolts are gonna help more than getting a stronger more balanced eccentric shaft. Unfortunately S5 engines are very prone to snapping the corners because of the torsion when you are pushing big power however REW's are a lot better than this but still not perfecf
What was the benefit of running a long tube header vs say a log or short tubular manifold? I'm assuming the benefit of avoiding detonation and the ability to have a High compression engine with a turbo. Cheers.
I’d love to see you do this test again with some ring gap. Keep on putting out awesome content
^This!
I have a forged internal B16A with Wiseco pistons and Eagle rods and Cylinder Support Systems installed to close the deck, but I haven't run it yet. I did this same thing on a bone stock non-VTEC B18B1 that I tore down and rebuilt with ACL bearings and NPR rings and it made 408 whp reliably for years and was really fast.
Big Turbo EJ8 what all made it make 400?
Those internals and a turbo?
Seems real common, close to stock and a big turbo. Then you start swapping cranks and shit... Honda’s seem like too much fun
Look up Gene Kim, Robert breaker on RUclips
Look up Gene Kim, Robert breaker on RUclips
I remember reading about this a LONG time ago in one of the tuning magazines. I'm pretty sure I still have it. Awesome to know you were the one behind that write up. Was way cool to read about back then. So many myths flying around back then.
It was in Honda tuning I still have that issue as well. Was definitely early 2000s
I remember this too! I remember my dad being a Chevy guy said "son. You need one of these honda Bees. Look at this stock bottom end power" lol 👍 good shit
@@nickangelo2119 yeah, but that one made around 500 didn't it? I think they added just pistons?
Myths still flying now!! I have that issue in my "reference books" collection.
Love all the content but especially the Honda stuff. I've made 612 on a stock b18b sleeve with CP 9-1 Pistons and scat h-beam rods with a VTEC head. I have a 84 1/2 mm la sleeved GSR which has no cylinder reenforcement. That motor has 10 to 1 wiseco pistons, Manley turbo tuff rods. It made 847 to the wheels. It was dynoed on a mustang Dyno. Both of the engines were extremely reliable and the GSR is still in my race car.
How much boost
Jason America 847FWHP?
probably like 25lbs+ of boost
34 lb of boost
What type of gas
I like Hondas but which part of that was stock?
Great test, I was vary surprised when you posted something about Honda’s a couple weeks ago. I’ve ran a stock bottom end b16a with 10psi about 50000 miles 260hp and the thing just wants more, after watching this I’d be happy gapping rings and shooting for 350. Any more Honda stuff you have I’ll watch 👍
I have lots
300+hp Honda is an insane feeing.
@@fastinradfordable phhhh wjy? My car came with 300 hp stock lol!
@@ikaros21 What car?
@@ikaros21 if you're referring to the car on your profile an old school Honda weighs around 1200lbs less than that. Power to weight ratio would be 11.6lbs per hp and Civic hatch around 6.5lbs per hp... That 300whp Civic will leave your car in the dust... That's why... 300whp Civic hatchback's or even coupe's will run into the 11's with a good driver and slicks.. and fwd need slicks for the quarter mile because their 60' is so shitty without them. Rwd doesn't have that handicap. Take both cars for a roll race and regular street tires work fine for the HP fwd setups.
Videos like this over years have given me not only the confidence, but the crystal clear understanding of how things work in the engine bay ... dont have any family or friends with a background of mechanic work AT ALL!!! Strictly self and internet taught, ive had many project cars and bikes up to know that I learned how to work on thanks to videos JUST LIKE THIS .. thank you for Amazing content truly informative and appreciative and im sure many others like me are !
happy to help
I got one for you, a junkyard b20 big bang, since b20's are known for having weaker cylinders than the b16,b18 blocks
that's due to the thinner cylinder walls from b20 having larger bore same issues with LS engines why boosted applications run the small displacement 4.8L
Get me more BOOST this same man has videos where 5.3 and 6.0 make well over 1000 horsepower , cylinder walls are never a failing component
@@JMMSBoyz lol what? He literally couldn't kill a stock bottom end 6.0 gen 4 LS engine.
Would love to see this too
@@coltonbeute5889 I can't say I have seen any of the LS motors fail due to a test that exceeded the strength of a stock part.
Keep them coming! Really loving the vast variety of different engines/tests and all the knowledge and data to help us all out! Thanks Richard!
This is just interesting as a car fan. I love seeing the variety of builds on this channel
I'll take a brake from tuning my gto with Hp tuners, to watch Richard's greatness.
GTO Kid could you recommend a good video for getting started with hp tuners
MBM460 Ns “how you use hpt 101” by sloppy mechanics. His website a ton of base tunes
Malone Harrison thanks so much i’m a carb guy making the switch
MBM460 Ns welcome 🙏, big power gains in efi
@@mbm460ns9 CSSOB on RUclips has some really good step by step videos.
I had a 1989 clean ford probe gt with the old f2t when I was young. Did head stead, ring gap, water meth, 2000cc injectors, I think it was a master power gt45, on Megas squirt. Ran 28 psi forever, all my friends said it would never last and I ran that setup for 5 years with absolutely no issues. It's all about the tune people.
How much power did it make just curious?
@@PeterFeltersnatch852 I never had it on a dyno. I did a base tune from one of my friends that had close to the same setup. Then I just street tuned it with a wideband.
Just got my hands on a stock B16A, this makes for perfect timing. Awesome video 👍
When your watching “fastest car” on Netflix and get bored, so you switch to RUclips to Richards newest video and then Richard pops up on Netflix with Chad lol.
the Chad is rad
Yep I saw that !
@@richardholdener1727 netflix? where?
Funny. About an hour ago I told my car to hit play, she said na its boring u wont like it, and this video was definitely a good one.
I'd be curious to see a Big bang subaru! They're famously blowy-uppy, how much cold Richard Holdener make? I suspect they don't have quite enough ring gap stock, and often times people are trying to shove way too much boost in at low speeds.
that's exactly what i was thinking, hopefully we get to see him run an sti engine to its limits and maybe elaborate more on the famous ring land failure
@@AlexP-yb7gh I've seen the theory that ring gap is just too tight stock and sits there and weakens that area with lots of slight ring butting.
There isn't much I wouldn't give up to be apart of all this dyno testing!
Thanks for all the different varieties of platforms you are putting up lately. I subbed when you had around a thousand subscribers and it has gone nuts over the last few months. Almost at 50 thousand subscribers. You put in all the hard work, and we appreciate it. Can't wait for more videos to come.
Thanks again Richard. Cheers.
Thanks for the sub!
now a days lots of high powered honda builds use CSS cylinder support system they convert your block to a closed deck, otherwise a sleeved block like darton MID or LA sleeves are also a good option. Ive heard around 450+whp stock sleeves start to be a gamble some might get away with it and some might crack a sleeve, of course a few pulls on the dyno doesnt really show how long it will last over a longer period of time.
Superstreet did a b16a with arias pistons stock rods 24psi 507whp. I had a b16a2 12psi beat it up for about a year daily driving till 2 pistons cracked just like you explained. I learned something from your video bigger ring gaps, thanks
Running a Honda MPFI converted SOHC no-vtec D15B2 block, JE 9.4-1 forged pistons, eagle rods, full Manley and Isky racing valve train. Factory crank, cam, and ECU with a manifold pressure bypass set up on 8psi 6850rpm limiter. No smoke, no issues, 27-32 MPG 24000 miles so far. Would love to see what an 89-91 D15 motor is capable of on your big bang program!
I wonder what a stock b16 with more ring gap would do in a big bang situation?
Pretty cool, it's amazing how much power these stock engines can actually make. Honestly I think I would have taken that original small turbo setup you got going. The power and torque curve was much nicer and smoother. And for street use I suspect the car might even be faster, because you'll be pulling longer and sooner rather than it all rushing up at the tail end. At a drag strip where you can stay in the high RPM ranges you probably get a different result.
Great video keep up the great work
When I was starting out years ago with a local tuning company in Washington state your Honda books got my threw it.
👍
Even though I don't do Hondas it's interesting to erase the myths surrounding the stock engine. Thanks for a great dyno session.
Need to get a early non VVTI 2JZGE from a lexus and do a big bang test on it . You can pick them up cheap $400-$1000
Yes please
Good stuff Richard. Can you please post a video on any K24 stuff you may have?
Love all the big bang stuff . Big bang every motor I'll keep watching them
Yup. Seeing the limits of an engine, and knowing what caused it is invaluable !!!
The bone-stock B16A record, last time I saw, was 560whp. Made it 2-3 runs, then cracked the ringlands (no gap). That's stock from the throttle body to the exhaust gasket. Comparing a chassis dyno b16 (155whp with same mods) to yours (185hp), that means ~650hp.
They are pretty crazy little rice burners. The K-series are even wilder, but they have aweful transmissions when you feed it so much torque.
I love the video the way to explain everything.... my b16 is pushing about 300 on everything stock only 13 psi ... hopefully to push more soon
Hey Rich! Been here since you had 1200 subs. You are almost at 50k. But you deserve 2 million plus. If you are ever in Nc, your welcome to come by and have a beer.
thnx for the OG support
@@richardholdener1727 you're very welcome,brother. Keep up the good work.
Will we ever see a big bang 300 Ford?
This is the one we need.
I'll 2nd this
Are you talking about the 6 cylinder 300
Richard @@@@@
@@jwayne1202 Yes Sir
Ford 2.3 would be great, I’ve heard they’re monsters with a good head on them
They make some mean dirt track motors out of them. Upwards of 250 hp n/a with a mean cam.
The 2.4 Honda’s (k24a2) come with a good head from the factory. But it’s going to be limited by the rods bending at over 800hp. How much power will the stock 2.3 ford rods hold?
Dylan Bellville I’ve heard... crank rods block are good to 600 with the actual turbo coupe pistons, I just wanted to see him destroy those numbers like he has every other motor in existence lol
An engine I am always curious about, is the Suzuki H27A V6, found in the 98-06 XL-7, and the 05-07 Grand Vitaras. They are all aluminum, closed deck blocks, and supposedly very light (~260 lbs, long block). I have *heard* that the crank is forged, but have never had opportunity to confirm that rumour.
Excellent test! I was wondering if you’re using any specific type of knock monitoring system on these engines. I’ve done some of my own dyno testing, pushing bone stock Honda engines (B18 non Vtec) into the 20+psi territory on several different turbos, all on 93 octane fuel. I know better fuel will make more power and less likely to detonate, but wanted to push the limits of standard pump gas and see what I could get away with. Also, how much ignition timing were you running on the last run of 17psi on the 57mm?
22-no knock sensors
GREAT VIDEO. Please make more Honda videos. K Series will be great. I’ll make sure to share all of them!
1996 B18C Type R, arp headstuds, oem head gasket, e85 and 19 degrees of total timing. 410/277 @ 14.5psi eBay t3/t04e .63 exhaust housing. I road race it at that power level, zero failures.
I would love to see some euro big bang..
M113 5.4 Mercedes!! Would be epic
agreed, even 4.3 and 5.0, as their are cheaper then even e36 IS engines or m50/m52 :D
Or an M117. I'd *love* to see Richard hot-rod the old K-Jet mechanical injection, too.
Wow. Some great information from 15 years ago thats still relevant in today's world. Would love to see you redo this test!
You’re what the world needs right now!
I swear the next time someone ask me about what should they mod in their hot rod engine, turbo or not, I'll scream:
" THE M.F PISTON RING GAP, THAT'S WHAT ! Just make it plenty bigger. Patron Saint of ALL Boosted Engines and Punisher of Crooked Facts , Richard Holdener said and proved so already. "
👌🏻😊👍🏻 Looking forward to next video. U ROCK. 🤘🏻
thnx-if only I would have listened to my future self
I look forward to these videos in the morning!!!!
Testing idea for you, with catch cans and different number/diameter hoses. I’d be curious to see someone hook up a pressure gauge to see how much actual pressure is in the valve train with no vent vs ventilation and what diameter lines.
Awesome test! I had no idea those Little buggers could produce that much power at roughly 15 psi.
Thanks for posting it 😁
Keep in mind that with race fuel they can run much more aggressive timing, than can be done with typical premium pump fuel. Also the lack of any accessories and drive components makes a massive difference.
I can personally tell you that my forged LSVTEC (B18B1 1.8L non-VTEC block with CP pistons and Eagle rods with a B16B Civic Type-R head with cams, MLS head gasket, ARP head studs, etc) makes 612 whp with the possibility of making more. It runs on E85 and has a Garrett GTX3582R dual ball bearing turbo. The limiting factor of power is the turbo only had a .63 AR exhaust housing. I just bought a 1.06 AR housing for it. The only sleeve support I have is a blockguard. I also have a Cylinder Support Systems installed JDM B16A in my basement with Wiseco pistons and Eagle rods as a backup.
I have k24a1 with eBay gt3076 /0.82 rear and 98 octane in Aus , 20psi , 11.4deg timing and no knock showing in any logs .rev limit 7100rpm. 10.8-11.1afr.
Engine broke the piston at the gudgeon after a few months . Sump had the rod, bits of piston, gudgeon pin and lower oil control rings all in the sump .
I assume the failure was lack of piston strength and everything else was there to ensure it lived. I can’t see anything else contributing to my failure ? Thoughts ?
Do a k24a1 Richard . Great channel by the way👍
Can you do a fuel test for 87, 91, 93, E85, Avgas and Race Fuel. Changing the timing to suit each fuel.
Holy 2002 setup, Batman! This test would be much more interesting if it was redone with modern turbo tech.
Chris M ikr... this guys a hack.
@@mareksumguy1887 let's see you do better. Where are your videos?
@@mareksumguy1887 I disagree. Richard is a trailblazer and has extremely deep knowledge on engine dynamics, this is just a really old test that he's revisiting, likely to cater to a wider range of viewers. Most of his clients these days are V8 owners, so he doesn't visit 4 cylinder stuff much anymore. You can't fault him for that.
Chris M what kind of a moron would use old garbage turbos??
@@mareksumguy1887 This test appears in a book he published in 2003, it wasn't done last week. This stuff was the best available at the time. I'd love to see him re-do it with a modern turbo, but as I said, he's got his hands full with V8 stuff. That's where the money is.
Can you do a video on the Chevy Sprint 1.0 Turbo 3cyl I'm a..... Asking for a friend being a 3-cylinder guy is not something I would usually admit lol
No test nessecary. It'll be ok. I promise.
Great suggestion!
My dad had one of those. Great little cars and a hoot to drive.
The new koeningseg has a 3 cylinder with 600hp, and another 800hp electric system!!
@@richardholdener1727 I own a 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta as well, which could be a good test. I know those engines are available at wrecking yards from crashes. 2014 to 2017 Fiesta SFE package. Ford showed them at 200hp in an open wheel car in Europe a few years ago. Chris Harris tested it. I'd really like to see how far it can go before total destruction. I'd bet closer to 400hp.
Awesome video! And as far as i know to really break passed 500hp safety is to css your block and beef up the rods.. but really thats it. Also springs and retainers if you wanna rev to the moon, but definitely not needed for 7k rpm
Keep the honda/acura goodness coming buddy! I enjoy your videos and love hearing the conclusion. Thanks for the time you put in for videos for us to watch.
I was curious why you chose a "medium" size compressor and a .63 hot size. The 57mm 3076r was always the 400hp pump gas turbo i used ten years ago.
Maybe try a modern billet 67mm to 70mm wheel in an anti-surge housing with a hot side around .9-1.0 a/r? Maybe gap it at 22mm top and 24mm second? I wouldn't be surprised to see 700hp.
That stg 3 wheel is never really street friendly, but that's what you had around. Great content as always
agreed-that turbo was not the best choice-just what I had laying around back in the day
I know its really obscure but I would love to see an audi 2.7tt on the dyno. Some guys run the factory short blocks routinely over 800hp. The 3.0l engine in the family get a bad rap, myths of cylinder walls splitting at 400hp. They are also the most common, the whole car can be had for less than $500 and has the best heads.
Turbonetics size is best for a street car. Powerband is balanced thanks
Would love to see this done with modern setup, I’m a dyno tuner, and I’ve gone well into the 400fwhp range on dead stock B16’s without any drama at all. Shops locally have gone 500fwhp standard engines totally untouched at north of 20psi. On E85 with GTX3076 turbo’s generally! Would be interested to see a modern redo.
500 whp on a stock B16A requires over 30 psi-I would like to see an untouched B16A do that
Richard Holdener considering with a GTX3076 they’ll go 350fwhp on 11-12psi on E85. I’d doubt very much that it would require into the 30psi range to do 500whp. Just be interested to see a redo with modern parts.
Great test. Given how cheap the insurance is for forged rods and pistons are these days. If you're pulling a honda motor apart to increase ring gap. You'd be well advised to get a 0.5mm overbore, forged pistons and rods. Money well spent.
Also for context, Given the fuel and intercooling used, it's not really preresentitive of what can be achieved with a street driven car. No-one is goinv to be running around daily on Leaded 118MON fuel. So the timing on a street motor will be significantly less, with a corresponding reduction in power produced. Also these tests are rather short short (5-6 seconds.) When loaded for long periods of time (say circuit racing,) fatigue can and does set in on weaker rods (that might happily survive a couple of dyno pulls.) MCM found this out the hard way on their 4G64 2.4L with far less power. It was fine on the dyno, and fine for a little while on the track, but eventually a rod said enough, is enough and bent.
Still and interesting test, to determine the limits.
this motor can easily be driven around on E85-dyno tests run 300 rpm/sec (easy math)
Not into 4 or 6 bangers but since you're doing it I watch
thnx-every motor need more power
Thanks for doing all these vids. It takes tons of time so thanks!
soooo...I NEVER subscribe to a channel....but Mr. Richard, you've earned it. SUBBED
Dodge 420a .030-.035 ring gap 30psi made 661 Whp old school GT40r T4
Is that pretty universal for most 4 cylinders?
I had a dodge avenger with a 420a in high school. First car I ever turbocharged. Was completely stock for the most part other then map spacer, fuel pump, and the usual. But I ran that thing hard for 3 years before I sold it and never had any issues. She loved boost.
@Budget Boost DIY no that wasn't me but I was on that forum a lot. I had a 10.1 fmu and I did the cold start injector that was on a pressure switch. It turned on after 10psi of boost and added more fuel. I made a dual in tank pump setup, I used two pumps from a gst. I miss that car. I hear now all the srt4 guys are running 420a heads on there 2.4.
@Budget Boost DIY Yeah im DSM-ZERO. ive actually been trying to sell the car
Man I love this guys attitude
Awesome video! Gapping the rings would also apply to a stock b18a1 if I want to turbo it, right?
yes-any motor
I have a sleeved Lsvtec 83.5mm with Garrett gt 3076r made 417 on 20lbs I gapped the rings to CPs recommendation. Top ring was .018 second was .024
According to honda-tech, b series blocks can take around 400 to high 400's safely before cracking a sleeve. Results are varied. But that is the general safe long term limit until you have to think about upgrading the sleeves. Yes people have made more but at that point its a ticking time bomb. Stock cast pistons cannot handle detonation and will shatter. Ask me how I know LOL. Forged pistons are softer so they can handle detonation without breaking. Similar to standard vs impact sockets.
On 93 with stock pistons you should stay around low 300. That's what I'm making now 320 whp stock b18a bottom. With forged pistons the limit is still around 450 cause now the weak link is the sleeves. So you can do a few things such as cement block filler which would compromise the cooling and is for only drag i believe. Devcon which is similar but i think has better cooling there's some youtube videos out there. Then next in price is CSS. This uses the stock sleeves and a perfectly fitted block guard. It is rated up to 700 whp and there's also a high hp version that is 800 whp. I've seen 900 whp css vids here. Then the best is sleeves but also the most expensive. Also Dart blocks are very good but banned in some drag racing leagues. So basically it comes down to the open deck making the sleeves weak. It allows the sleeves to move which eventually cracks it. They always crack at cylinder 3. Also at high boost you will need arp head studs because the oem bolts will not be able to hold the head down so it will lift.
open deck - weakest, best cooling cause surrounded by water, cheapest to manufacture
semi closed - now the walls have some support. lots of turbo motors built this way i believe
fully closed -best. this is the reason the Supra 2JZ is such a strong motor stock. Because it comes with a FULLY closed iron deck. That thing is built like a tank.
www.enginelabs.com/news/supporting-your-cylinders-open-semi-closed-or-closed-deck/
So once you understand the limitations of deck types, fuel, pistons, rods then you can see the power limits. Most people get H beam eagle rods which can handle 900 hp with ARP 2000's. Be careful with imitation h beams with weak rod bolts. Some can only handle 400 whp. There are many rod bolt options. Ok I think I wrote too much. Imma head out lol
I know a lot of people would love to see how far you can take a b series with CSS block (cylinder support system) and simple valve spring upgrades. A big bang 4 cylinder. I can almost guarantee you'd see 1000+hp with a css block pistons/rods and valve spring upgrade.
I love the B series Honda stuff. Keep it up. Also, the chevy stuff is great, but I'd like to see some more HEMI and Honda videos.
More to come!
I would like to add there is a different type of big bang engine. It's when you take an even numbered cylinder engine and fire the companion cylinders togther, like a 4 cylinder that fires like a big twin.
@@dj4monie there are 2 cylinder cars
@@dj4monie also this is an engine channel more than anything else.
@@dj4monie why deny an opportunity to learn something new about engines in general. Also Harley's are odd fire.
You had about 100hp left in it, which is where I've taken the B16A2. It holds very well. I would say you need a better tuning system to begin with, a Hondata S300, not an S200/S100, those are very very old systems... maybe 20years or more. It is completely not uncommon to make 450whp/500crankHP, all you have to do is google it and you'll find plenty. the LS can make 400whp/450crankHP, and LS-VTEC also hits 450whp/500crankHP. The block you have to worry about is the B20, which is good to 300whp/350crankHP, and B20VTEC 350whp/400crankHP. Push it past all those numbers I mention, another 5-10%, and it won't last long. So, essentially, your bad tuning turned your B16 into a sad lowly B20-vtec motor. :( :( :(
Lastly, I would NEVER open up a motor and not replace the pistons and rods, at the same time as the ring gap and headstuds... which is another thing. The headstuds can be reused once from the Honda Factory, per the Honda Service Manual. If you are changing pistons and rods to forged, then why not, throw in the better head studs, since as a package, you can now go way more boost/power.
In the beginning of the video 3:45 you claimed you were going to simply change the ring gap, and not touch anything else, but then you didn't do that. I would have loved to find out if you can truly stick with the stock pistons and rods and make more power than is typical... but after seeing your tuning system, i lost hope anyway.
whp=hp measured at the wheels, when a car is put on a chassis dyno
crankHP=hp measured at the crank, when the engine is put on an engine dyno, as was claimed to have been used in this video.
if only i knew something about Hondas
Would you do a 100psi boost test? Methanol, prepped stock bottom end, ring gap, custom cam...all on a Chevy 350 Vortec! Enough turbo and fuel to split whatever in half👍
it won't take 100 psi
@@richardholdener1727 C'mon Rich......by your own admission about what the internet has said about what will work or not on an engine, how ya gonna know? Let's be honest, nobody has thrown that kind of boost at anything less than a tractor pull diesel or an all out, small displacement, purpose built import drag engine. But the fact remains that above 20-30 psi boost, most folks never think of going beyond that. 100 pounds of boost is absurd and impractical, but it is an adventure! And methanol can cool things down enough to make things happen.
@@dj4monie C'mon man, the easiest way to get that kind of boost is to do the math. There are formulas on Garrett Turbo's site to make the calculations. Most of the big players in the racing world run well above 4 bar ( roughly 60 psi ) all the time, with guys like Boostin Performance putting
80 psi through their Mitsubishi ( single turbo, methanol ). It can be done. It's all math and money. The 100# test is only for dyno purposes..you'd have to have a proper chassis to hook that power potential.
If you take a 350hp Vortec, which is at atmospheric pressure, and add 1 bar of boost ( 14.7 psi ) theoretically you can double the power if the matching volume of fuel is there. Now add 6.5 bar worth of boost, with the air volume, fuel volume and air temperature control, you should have 6.5 times the power. It can be done. Will it survive? Doubt it, but it would be fun to watch.
Got me wanting to boost a 3800 series 1. Loved the old 11th gen 98 regency. Would be a pure sleeper
Id like to see a Honda D series Big Bang test, just cause it’s a tiny single cam engine and people usual just tear them out to go B series thinking they can’t make power!.. let’s prove those people wrong!.. lmao
Please please please do a LT motor from 93-97 f-body cars. Be really interesting to see what kind of power these would support on some boost.
Thanks rich. This is exactly what I wanted to see. I love chevy but as a kid I played with Hondas.
Wow!!...............
ruclips.net/video/sluNuVp2_TE/видео.html
Id love to see an early Miata 1.6 big bang. Love your videos. Thanks for all your hard work
Could you do a vortec 4200 4.2 i6??? Please.. 06-07 years to be exact. Not much info on them. How much boast gm Atlas engine edition.. PLEASE...🙏😇
Many people have been successful including myself running 650whp on stock sleeves. That’s with running h beam rods and forged pistons... I have seen a few gsr engines reach similar power levels completely stock with just head studs but seem to only last 10-15 passes down the strip
The rumor i had heard was only that the sleeves were the weakest point. Up to 500hp. I cannot speak for stock internals as my engine is fully built but i do run stock sleeves at about 17-20lbs. I have had no issues, but in the back of my mind i always have that thought to be safe and stay where im at (512whp)
Ok quick question, you said in other videos that as long as you “GAP” the piston rings with a perfect tune and proper fuel it will take the beating.
On a B16 with “PROPER RING GAP” what do you think will be the breaking point of stock pistons???
Last question is this… Factory OEM B16 top ring gaps maximum service limit is 0.014” inch. Are you suggesting going over the OEM service limit on stock rings like 0.020” inch on 81mm stock bore????
So basically I can just yank out my stock pistons and rods, re gap the OEM rings to 0.020” and boost reliably to 300-400whp???? Yes?
we run .007 per 1 inch of bore-so the gap would be .022-.023
@@richardholdener1727 so basically on stock pistons I can crack open the stock block, pull out all the pistons and re gap the top rings to 0.009” of an inch OVER the “Recommended Factory service limit” of 0.014”?????
What adverse effects would happen to the engine if I go 0.009” over the service limit??? Would I burn more oil, smoking, or loss of compression???
Do you think the ring gap could also be the cause of bent or broken rods at high RPM on N/A engines?
Ring gap won't affect rod strength
It's odd to bend a rod NA. Usually they just break (and you have to be making much more power than factory)
Usually when rods break NA, they break under tension at the top on the exhaust stroke. There usually isn't enough squeeze on the piston to compression fail about any rod without boost or spray. Some older engines have cast rods, crazy I know, but they give up the ghost in spectacular fashion sometimes only 1000rpm above the factory Rev limit. If you break a rod NA, and it's a dedicated NA engine, usually that calls for lighter pistons and pins. But to answer your question, probably not. NA engines of the same displacement put about the same amount of heat into the rings. Yes there will be some difference between an alcohol sprint car and a taxi, but even pickups get worked hard and have the ring gap from factory to pull the rated load up mountains. The difference your going to need before you pinch rings in a Nascar stocker and a guy moving his camper across California is tiny.
This video got me thinking, because years ago guys would say big blocks couldn’t handle boost with stock pistons, because the pistons would break, and they can’t handle RPM’s because the rods would break or bend. I wasn’t thinking about the fact that the rods are cast. Thanks guys!
broken rods happen from snatch load at rpm-usually a missed shift or two
we've run stock BBC pistons and rods to over 1200 hp so far
How about a video going into detail on the sizing of compound turbo setups? Get a number of options for both the primary and secondary turbos and really get into the details.
The LS compound was just a gee wiz exercise. Given the potential with single or twins, There is no reason 99% of LS motors out there need compound turbos. Excellent idea for diesel applications
@@richardholdener1727 You've done LS/V8 stuff to death, and you're right. They don't warrant a serious dive into compound turbos as much as a smaller cube engine. However, the engine isn't the point of my request. I want to see real world results of compound turbo combinations on the same engine, whatever that engine may be. I wanna see a 2 or 3 liter engine make low to moderate boost just above idle, and carry that all the way to at least its factory redline. Or maybe that's just not feasible? It would depend on the turbo sizing, wastegate strategy, etc. I bet you could do it, and she'd a lot of light on what it actually takes to make a good compound setup. Maybe you want to go nuts and make all the power up top but still have nearly NA response... let's see the possibilities here.
Even with a good tune you can run high cylinder pressures and bend rods, crack pistons and rings.
hurting parts with just cylinder pressure happens at a very high power level-not at 400 hp
Would love to see that b16 properly gapped and with a modern turbo that would give a nice power curve and see how high it will go!!!
I would love to see a bmw m50 or m52. Or maybe some random less tuneable underdog engine...
M54b30 would be wild
In my Christoper Walken voice: I got a fever, and the only prescription is more ring gap!
ping pong!
I run E23 on my NA d16y8 with automatic transmission...
Accel 11076 ignition coil, NGK blue super mag cables, NTK O2 sensor, E3 spark plugs, brass terminals cap n' rotor, K&N panel air filter, OEM head gasket, ARP cylinder head stud bolts and a full rebuild cylinder head, stock ECU.
Amazing...
But I f my mixture goes to e25 performance goes down the drain
very cool Richard, would be cool to see this revisited with more gap.
It be cool to see a 1996-2002 VW 12v VR6 2.8l / 2002-2005 24v VR6 2.8l , 2004+ VR6 3.2l , 2006+ VR6 3.6l , 2000-2005 1.8T engine on here
3:50 Try total seal second ring? With First ring 0.030" gap.
Loved my total seal top gapless in my VW TDI
Ive been giving new life to old stuff most my life. I reuse almost everything if i can an its like anything or even us,well blow up or go crazy if pushed to much.
Look up Gene Kim
The only problem with a lab dyno vs real world is there is no resistance on the engine, no load, such as the weight of the car, on flat ground or going up hill. My tuner said dont try to pull up hills in 4th or 5th gear because u add alot of resistance/work to the engine. This causes more pressure needed and more heat generated.. my stock b16a has a 57 trim and dynoed on rollers to 278whp. On 9lbs of boost. 190lbs of torque. But he did say heat is your biggest enemy. If building boost only go full petal, to keep it rich enough to avoid the heat... but yea this little 1.6 pulls very hard now. It sounds amazing too it spools loud and has flutter and a bov... its fucking sweet lol
Great stuff Richard. Very impressed how capable all these motors are. Learning so much. Question- if you build a NA motor but are considering boost Down the road approximately 8-10 psi should you ring gap before or wait till you install boost and then ring gap?
gap now-it doesn't hurt power
I'd love to see a big bang SR20DE - very cheap and plentiful in FWD Nissans, and there seems to be a lot of different opinions on what fails first under boost on unopened motors. Some swear the rods fail at as little as 300hp, others run motors with the same rods out to 400+ without apparent issue.
I love the OG SERs and the SR20 is a great little motor
Love these test, I know it cost a lot of money but maybe down the road you could do a test like this where you test the limits of stock engines that people comment you could test? My test for you would be the toyota 2uz 4.7L, they have weaker rods than the early 1uz but always wanted to see if its the engine fault or the people attempting to tune it.
part of the problem is we don't have a way to mount many of those on the dyno
You guys are awesome and have a lot of really really good info others don’t share in this video👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻 I would like to see the actual pulls with split screen of the info so we can see the blow by at higher rpm ect ect. But I love the video
Stock block b16a , arp headstud , cometic gasket , skunks 2 lma , low boost 10psi made 250 whp
As far as the b18 and stock parts, I always had issues with smashing ringlands and blowby manifesting. I never changed the ring gap I'll admit [in most cases] As far as that motor, pistons are the weak point's. They can make good power.
all that hp is nice. but can your trans,etc handle it? too much power can be dangerous,too
I have seen 2 b16a2 turbo setups with untouched motor internals .both were past the 400whp mark and ran great for a long time without adjusting looser ring gap..i wonder if this motor had sticking rings or an intermittent injector in that hole that broke the ringland
IT WAS RING GAP
First time watching your video, i found it very knowledgeable! Thanks!..
I'm going to be making 250-300hp on a mostly stock block I added ring gap, and put ARP headstuds, and put race bearings in it
I've always wondered about those Mazda Rotary engines how much can they take.
John Parrish that is the ultimate question Mr.Parrish...
Depends on the apex seals. 1mm are super low friction super thin seals and push out easily. 2mm came standard on the turbo motor and 3mm is the standard now for any rebuild because they don’t cost anymore than 2mm and the larger shoulder keeps it Square with the face of the combustion chamber.
It's all a matter of eccentric shaft flex, and the torsional rigidty of the keg. Shaft flex means the rotors are going to hit the housings and kill them. You can either clearance the rotors, or get the eccentric shaft kit that includes an additional shaft bearing in the center plate (13b). As far as rigidity of the keg, you can dowel it, stud it, etc. Modern metallurgy being what it is, the main concerns are no longer apex seals.
I think you guys are on the wrong channel, check out Angel Motorsports channel. Rotary God Brothers.
@@michaelrodgers6559 doweling and bolts are gonna help more than getting a stronger more balanced eccentric shaft. Unfortunately S5 engines are very prone to snapping the corners because of the torsion when you are pushing big power however REW's are a lot better than this but still not perfecf
What was the benefit of running a long tube header vs say a log or short tubular manifold? I'm assuming the benefit of avoiding detonation and the ability to have a High compression engine with a turbo.
Cheers.
I was testing to see if long tubes improved power on a turbo motor like they do on an NA motor
@@richardholdener1727
Was there a significant difference in headers?