Its funny how people think they can change and screw up the future by going back into the past, yet they think they can't change the future by doing a sole simple thing in the present.
I truly feel that Canticle is one of the best scifi novels ever written. How did you two interpret the ending? On the one hand, we see the monks moving the monastery off the earth in a spaceship, taking the ultimate step to protect the information. But then you realize what's happening: the informatioin is nothing less than the knowledge of weaponry that can continue to destroy humanity, and now it's traveling to the stars! When I read this my heart sank...but then I was in utter awe at the irony. What a book!
It definitely feels like the cycle could continue - but maybe it won’t. The ending kind of feels like the real world - will we learn to stop the violence before we succeed in blowing it all apart?
Listening to the audiobook right now and loving the novel. Brother Spots introduction as the first mutant we meet in the book was a great part I thought, I love how they describe this giant spotted pony of a mutant covered in hair horrifying looking but he is a personable lovely and jovial fellow who everyone at the monastery loves.
Thanks for reminding me that I own this and had been meaning on Rereading it. And I needed one for Christmas week. Thanks. And seriously, like what I mentioned in the Vorkosigan video, The Sparrow and Children of God by Mary Doria Russell. You both need to read that duology.
if you like Robert A Heinlein, what do you think of the 2014 film "Predestination", an Australian film adaptation of Heinlein's 1959 story "-All You Zombies-" the mind bending time travel tale?
Thanks for the review, just added to my Audible wishlist. The only disagreement I have is the statement at 15:15min about people feeling good about the future. Most of the people I know are feeling really uncertain about the future, and see technology as the cause of many of our problems, not the solution.
For sure - v much agreed. We said people mostly don’t feel good about the future, but maybe we mumbled. In any case, looking forward to brighter days ahead as we start to finally look at more problems head-on, and sci fi can be a great way to do that!
I saw the three time periods (Fiat Homo, Fiat Lux and Fiat Voluntas Tua) as being perspectives on the ages of premodernity (kings, religion) modernity (science, nation-states) and postmodernity (deconstruction, pluralism)
@@hugonautspod if you like the idea of pre-modernity compared to modernity and post-modernity, you might like the non science-fiction film "Sunshine" from 1999 by Istvan Szabo, where it covers four Hungarian Jew generations through the Austro-Hungarian Empire (premodernity, based around religion and empires/kingdoms), The Kingdom of Hungary (nation-states, secularism, capitalism, fascism) and The People's Democratic Republic of Hungary (postmodernity, socialism, totalitarianism, communism), with a grandfather, father and son played by the same actor (Ralph Fiennes).
I’m a little late to the comment party, but I was most befuddled by the ending, which I keep trying to find someone discussing. I thought Abbot Zerchi’s cat story quite a bit, given that he is relaying this story of his childhood to a woman whose child is dying of radiation sickness and exposure. I think the great morality of the story is distilled in this story (killing the cat) as religion and science sort of melt away in this moment. Then we are hit with the bombs and the second coming which I needed much more explanation for. The monks lifting off to space and dusting off their shoes to make sure the earth stays with the earth. Great book, confounding ending.
Yea this was back in the early days before we did the post-spoilers section at the end of each episode so we could talk about the end of the books. I liked thought the destruction of the earth (again) was great, and really brought the anti-nuclear weapons theme home (weapons of that power, combined with human beings, are not a good idea and we should seek to make sure they don't exist). The religious iconography, though, was over my head at least (this is Brent in the comments). I don't know if that's because I don't know enough theology, or if its because the ending was muddled, but I expect its a bit of both. I also kept hoping the immortal wandering jew character would be more explained / fit into the larger picture, and it felt like that loose thread was never really tied up.
@@hugonautspod I thought at first the book was going to end setting up the beginning, the story beginning where it ends, endlessly. Also, was curious that the illuminated blueprint that Brother Francis created and lost never resurfaced. I’m not sure what the point of that was beyond beauty and futility? I’m rereading now to see if I missed certain aspects of themes. There is a lot of religious iconography (I was raised a Catholic) but as this was written in 1959(?) it’s almost too thick for a modern Catholic, at least for me. So, I’m not sure the loose ends are as loose as they seem but almost written in a language we no longer recognize.
I rather enjoyed the ambiguity of Benjamin. He says he's waiting for the Messiah and references the second coming and Jesus. He refers to himself as Lazarus at one point. So he's either the wandering jew a character from the eponymous story about a Jew that wouldn't let Jesus rest on his doorstep and was cursed with immortality until the second coming or the man who Jesus raised from the dead. Or some mashup of the two stories. Either way the age would be about right.
@@molochi Reading your reply made me realize that perhaps all the threads of the story are intentionally left unanswered as I feel like if I asked a hundred people they would all have a different point from the story that goes without explanation or closure, closure being the better word I think.
![Utopia, Nuclear War and Talking Elephants: 5 Sci-Fi Books Reviewed [100 Book Challenge #15-20]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GFPbs301i2g/mqdefault.jpg)
Its funny how people think they can change and screw up the future by going back into the past, yet they think they can't change the future by doing a sole simple thing in the present.
Eh somebody with a time machine will fix it, let’s just watch tv
I truly feel that Canticle is one of the best scifi novels ever written. How did you two interpret the ending? On the one hand, we see the monks moving the monastery off the earth in a spaceship, taking the ultimate step to protect the information. But then you realize what's happening: the informatioin is nothing less than the knowledge of weaponry that can continue to destroy humanity, and now it's traveling to the stars! When I read this my heart sank...but then I was in utter awe at the irony. What a book!
It definitely feels like the cycle could continue - but maybe it won’t. The ending kind of feels like the real world - will we learn to stop the violence before we succeed in blowing it all apart?
Canticle is a brilliant read. Nice review thanks.
Listening to the audiobook right now and loving the novel. Brother Spots introduction as the first mutant we meet in the book was a great part I thought, I love how they describe this giant spotted pony of a mutant covered in hair horrifying looking but he is a personable lovely and jovial fellow who everyone at the monastery loves.
Thanks for reminding me that I own this and had been meaning on Rereading it. And I needed one for Christmas week. Thanks.
And seriously, like what I mentioned in the Vorkosigan video, The Sparrow and Children of God by Mary Doria Russell. You both need to read that duology.
Thanks for the recommendation - definitely sounds like a good follow on to Leibowitz!
For humorous Sci-Fi, I highly recommend PKD’s “The Eyes Have It”. It’s very short, but so good
Great review guys. Read the book many years ago in high school and just rediscovered it with the 15 part radio drama. Both are awesome pieces of art.
Thanks! Yea we’ve been hearing good things about the radio drama, we’ll have to check it out soon
what do you guys think of the Hugo award winner "Stand on Zanzibar" by John Brunner?
Read it but didn't think it was quite right to cover on the show - what'd you think of it?
This is a wonderful discussion. Thank you
So glad you liked!
Listening to this audiobook, now. 😊 My first impression is that this would make a wonderful play.
We talking audiodrama or actual, in-person play? Sign us up for either option!
@@hugonautspod In person! Imagine the set designs? And the humor? 🤯
Beware the demon fallout the most terrible fiend in hell.
One of the most enlightened sci-fi novels ever written. 5 *
if you like Robert A Heinlein, what do you think of the 2014 film "Predestination", an Australian film adaptation of Heinlein's 1959 story "-All You Zombies-" the mind bending time travel tale?
Haven't seen it, thanks for the rec, reviews look good!
Thanks for the review, just added to my Audible wishlist. The only disagreement I have is the statement at 15:15min about people feeling good about the future. Most of the people I know are feeling really uncertain about the future, and see technology as the cause of many of our problems, not the solution.
For sure - v much agreed. We said people mostly don’t feel good about the future, but maybe we mumbled. In any case, looking forward to brighter days ahead as we start to finally look at more problems head-on, and sci fi can be a great way to do that!
I saw the three time periods (Fiat Homo, Fiat Lux and Fiat Voluntas Tua) as being perspectives on the ages of premodernity (kings, religion) modernity (science, nation-states) and postmodernity (deconstruction, pluralism)
Very much agreed! Almost a history lesson told through a sci fi story, very cool piece of a very cool book!
@@hugonautspod if you like the idea of pre-modernity compared to modernity and post-modernity, you might like the non science-fiction film "Sunshine" from 1999 by Istvan Szabo, where it covers four Hungarian Jew generations through the Austro-Hungarian Empire (premodernity, based around religion and empires/kingdoms), The Kingdom of Hungary (nation-states, secularism, capitalism, fascism) and The People's Democratic Republic of Hungary (postmodernity, socialism, totalitarianism, communism), with a grandfather, father and son played by the same actor (Ralph Fiennes).
I’m a little late to the comment party, but I was most befuddled by the ending, which I keep trying to find someone discussing. I thought Abbot Zerchi’s cat story quite a bit, given that he is relaying this story of his childhood to a woman whose child is dying of radiation sickness and exposure. I think the great morality of the story is distilled in this story (killing the cat) as religion and science sort of melt away in this moment. Then we are hit with the bombs and the second coming which I needed much more explanation for. The monks lifting off to space and dusting off their shoes to make sure the earth stays with the earth. Great book, confounding ending.
Yea this was back in the early days before we did the post-spoilers section at the end of each episode so we could talk about the end of the books.
I liked thought the destruction of the earth (again) was great, and really brought the anti-nuclear weapons theme home (weapons of that power, combined with human beings, are not a good idea and we should seek to make sure they don't exist). The religious iconography, though, was over my head at least (this is Brent in the comments). I don't know if that's because I don't know enough theology, or if its because the ending was muddled, but I expect its a bit of both.
I also kept hoping the immortal wandering jew character would be more explained / fit into the larger picture, and it felt like that loose thread was never really tied up.
@@hugonautspod I thought at first the book was going to end setting up the beginning, the story beginning where it ends, endlessly. Also, was curious that the illuminated blueprint that Brother Francis created and lost never resurfaced. I’m not sure what the point of that was beyond beauty and futility? I’m rereading now to see if I missed certain aspects of themes. There is a lot of religious iconography (I was raised a Catholic) but as this was written in 1959(?) it’s almost too thick for a modern Catholic, at least for me. So, I’m not sure the loose ends are as loose as they seem but almost written in a language we no longer recognize.
I rather enjoyed the ambiguity of Benjamin. He says he's waiting for the Messiah and references the second coming and Jesus. He refers to himself as Lazarus at one point. So he's either the wandering jew a character from the eponymous story about a Jew that wouldn't let Jesus rest on his doorstep and was cursed with immortality until the second coming or the man who Jesus raised from the dead. Or some mashup of the two stories. Either way the age would be about right.
@@molochi Reading your reply made me realize that perhaps all the threads of the story are intentionally left unanswered as I feel like if I asked a hundred people they would all have a different point from the story that goes without explanation or closure, closure being the better word I think.
canticle = little song
Beware the demon fallout the most terrible fiend in hell.