Grew up running high school x-country in the late 70's. Cram, Coe and Ovett were idols. They were the best in the world and dominated 800-1 mile for around a decade. Remarkable acheivements and midddle distance is so very entertaining to watch.
and even better it was a nice clean race where both athletes did not have to run wide (apart from first lap where Cram runs a little bit in lane 2). Great race!
"Coe had planned to have a somewhat quiet season in 1985, partly because of the intensity of the previous year's efforts to get himself ready in time for the Olympics, as well as a planned move up to 5000m, which never materialised. He suffered a recurrence of a back problem which had plagued him on and off since 1980, causing him to miss several weeks of training mid season." In summary he turned up here in Oslo but was nowhere near fit as you can see with 200 to go. Cram never beat a fully fit Coe!!!
True. On the flip side Cram was not fit for the games in 1984. Given how good Cram was in 1985, I always wonder if Coe would have beat a fully fit Cram in LA.
@Friday’s are cool David Bedford ran the fastest times in his era becoming the fastest man in Britain in the 5,000 and 10,000. He also took 7 seconds off the 10,000 meter world record but that didn't make him the best runner. Olympic golds are what it's all about. How many did Cram win?
@@Andrew-m5p4s No he didn't. As I said earlier Coe had a poor 1985 with injuries and that had a knock on effect for his winter training for the 1986 season. Yes, he beat Cram in the 800, but he didn't have enough in his legs to go again and win the 1500 metres v Cram. BUT, he was getting fitter with every race and by September he ran his best ever 1500 metre time so he was getting there! The closest they both came to being fully fit racing each other was the Olympic 1500 metres in 1984.
He said he regrets not going for the record on the last lap (concentrating just on winning) as he had a lot left. In his book from 82, he said he'd have run 3:46.5 that night had he "gone all out at the bell". So, if we then deduce the 0.5 for no drafting, his time comes down to 3:46.0, with splits of 55.3, 58.0, 58.1, 54.6; with a fastest composite 880 of 1:49.9 (800 of 1:49.3). Even out the splits for both men and you get something around the 3:45 mark.
However, having said that, Cram was definitely capable of 3:45 flat that day with better pacing over the first 3 laps. His 440 splits were not even at all, going 57.2, 57.3 (these are ok but not ideal), 58.6, 53.2. Meaning his fastest composite 880 was 1:50.4 (1:49.8 for 800m). Although Cram's last lap was faster than Coe's in his 3:47.3 WR, their actual performances were pretty much on a par when you break them down.
Its amazing that the record has improved by only three seconds since then. Tells you how amazing the record was for its time. Im wondering if a day will come when a women will break a 4 minute mile. The current record is 4m 12s. Probably a ways off before we see a sub 4 minute mile for women.
Hi mate! Sorry for delay, been/am ill! I don't think Cram would have run any faster on the day with the same distribution of pace up to 500 to go. I think had he gone from 500 out then he'd have had an extra 100m in front with no drafting, and he would probably have run out of steam in the last 150. That's not to say I don't think he'd have been beaten. He would have won whether he'd had gone 500 out or 300 or even 200 on that day in that form, with Coe below his best.
Coe's splits were even more unevenly distributed over the first 3 laps (55.3, 58.0 - dreadful drop in pace, 58.6). Byers moved wide just before 1000m, so Coe didn't have that next 200m of drafting to the bell which Cram had in his race. That equates to about a 0.5 advantage for Cram. Coe also said that he was "holding something back on the last lap" for his kick with 100 to go.
If you can find me any performance from Cram where he ran as fast as Coe did in LA at the end of a 3:32 or faster 1500 race (or equivalent Mile) then I'll bow to your opinion. You won't find one. And when Coe won the 1500 at 84 Olympics, it was his 7th race in 9 days. Cram NEVER put together such a series of high intensity in his entire career. Cram's record is not as good as Coe's at 1500m, despite it being Coe's 2nd event. 2 Olympic golds, a 1500 WR and 3 x 1 Mile records, trumps Cram.
@Daz555Daz Cram's coach said he was in a similar position going into LA as he'd been before the previous year's World Champs. He was short of a few races, but he wouldn't have gone to LA if he felt he wasn't capable of winning it. The difference is that in Helsinki, it went 3:41, in LA it was 3:32. Coe also didn't have a great build up in 84 and missed several months training in winter. Coe ran the last 800m in 1:49.8 & last 100m in 12.7 in LA.
Oh, btw, Coe's last 4 x 100m went 14.0, 14.2, 13.8, 13.1. He only kicked with 100 to go, and was getting faster all down the homestraight. His last 40m (rarely taken in a mile race but shown on screen in that Brussels race ) was 5.06, which is 12.6 pace for 100m. So although his last 100 was marginally slower than Cram's, he was accelerating compared to his previous 100m, while Cram was slowing. And Coe's acceleration continued all the way to the line.
Thanks for your concern. It's cool. But it's complete conjecture Cram would have been allowed to get to the front with 300m to go, especially at that pace.
Hope that helps and makes sense? If Coe from 81 or late 84 raced Cram of 85 with perfect pacing and drafting to bell I'm sure we'd have seen a sub 3:45. To be honest, I don't think any athlete has ACTUALLY run sub 3:46 clean, but that's another issue.
This was the golden era of middle distance running,it's the same old story some people like one of them more than another, I was always an Ovett fan,but over the years iv'e mellowed and now judge them as the three of them should have been judged at the time. All three were fantastic atheletes and we in the U.K will never have the top three middle distance runners in the world, in the same era.
@kozmon0t -Lucky you! It's a shame Webb has disappeared since his 3:46 a few years ago. That would be good enough at present to be right at the top. I know a lot of it's down to injuries and he's on the comeback at the moment. Ran a 3:41 last week and a 1:48 800m. I think he's running in Milan on the 9th. Unfortunately, I think he'll have to be even better than he was in 2007 if he's going to medal next year, as he hasn't much of a kick compared to other in a slow tactical race.
Hi jmcd2v! There's really not a lot going on in the UK at the moment in men's middle distance, I'm sorry to say. Even our 3rd or 4th ranked guys in the 80's would beat what we have now. The US seem to have more potential than us at present. Symmonds I think is still learning the event and could get down to mid 1:43 this year, and Webb &Lagat are both a force to be reckoned with in the Mile when in top form. I really don't see Baddeley getting any better or winning any medals now at 28 this year.
It was known before LA in Britain, that he had an injury in the mid season, but he also said he wouldn't go to the Olympics if he didn't believe he could win it. Both Ovett and Coe also missed races at home in June that year due to injuries. Where are the arguments for them not being in their best shape in LA? Cram underestimated Coe, and the excuses were being voiced straight after, well before the next season. Just as they did in 86 after he got beat in the 800.
The BBC commentary was so biased towards Cram at this time, just because Brendan Foster was Cram's mentor. I mean, the attention is all on Cram, they clearly want him to win. Coe was the reigning Olympic champion and Mile record holder, but is barely a footnote. They also conveniently forget to mention Coe was just back from a month out with injury. Complete lack of respect.
Lol! Happy New Year to you too! I'm afraid Cram comes 3rd behind Coe and Ovett. He would need an Olympic title to get above them for starters, and a few more Wr's I'm afraid.
Not at all. I have Ovett's biography in font of me now, and he said the problems only arose as the heats began. I'll quote it for you if thats what it takes. As for the tv, as I clearly said, no one person is responsible. Different references give different answers. Wiki says Baird "first publicly demonstrated television on 26 January 1926, in his small laboratory in the Soho district of London". But I can't be bothered to argue the toss about that.
If they'd hit the bell about 3 secs slower then maybe Coe would have given him a close run that night. Cram went all out with about 350m to go, and hit his top speed round the last bend. He was actually slowing up a bit in the last 100m; his last 4 x 100m went - 14.2, 13.2, 12.6, 12.9. So, had he gone 500 out, he'd probably have run his fastest 100 section down the backstretch.
right there cram with better drafting and pacing goes 345 easy. coe had the best set of tools all time at 1500, just ask ovett, walker, coghlan, and the rest. he never put it all together, though he got right once in a while, his positioning was one of the worst ever.
I think you'll find that no one individual actually invented television, although most recognise John Logie Baird as the inventor of the world's first working television system in Hastings, England in 1923. He was a Brit (Scot) not an American.
Cram looked marvellous from a side view at full flow, but he had a unorthodox foot placement, which was part of the reason he had intermittent calf injuries.Head on he could look ungainly, especially when his head started rolling from side to side. He beat Cruz in the 800 at Zurich in 85 btw, not 83. A lot of races have disappeared, probably due to some violation of rights!
You have pointed out that Coe may have run 3.45 give the right conditions. Do you not think Cram might have run 3.44 or 3.45 in this race as he looks to be full of running at the end - maybe if Coe had not been there as perhaps he showed him too much respect and could have gone from 500M out.
Mister I can see you're from the States, so with the greatest respect, I was watching these guys running domestically in the UK week in week out at this time, reading their interviews in AW and following all the articles written in the British newspapers. Cram was being bigged up all the time leading up to LA in the UK press, and Coe was given little chance in most quarters. I have the articles where Cram said he was in the same place as 83.
Coe was ill in Edinburgh. He was scratched by the team doctor with a fever. What do you want, a doctor's sick note!? You've either invented or heard a rumour in the US which is without any validity. Do you think Ovett was feigning illness in LA? If Coe had carried on in Edinburgh he'd have ended up permanently damaged like Ovett was. FYI, Cram ran 7 races in the 2 months up to LA (incl 3 races in 4 days in mid July). Not what you'd expect from an injured athlete. Coe ran 4. Only 1 in July.
? I presume you mean she won her Olympic medals while in her 30's!? Of course Baddeley could improve, but it's not the norm to start running faster after 28. Women are more likely to reach their peak later than men in middle distance events, but it really comes down to the individual.
After LA Cram run 4 races within 18 days of the end of the Games, with big wins in Brussels and Koblenz, against the likes of Scott, Bile and Walker. Is that the sort of racing schedule of someone who is unfit?
@bijection765 Yes, because now they have a decent test for EPO. Not full proof, but at least they have one now. They didn't in the 90's and they first test up to 2006 was pretty useless too.
Lol! So you read The Times, Guardian, etc throughout summer 84 to know what was going on? Which channel did you get your insights from? Fox News? I wouldn't presume to know the in depth preparation of American athletes being the other side of the pond. Ovett wasn't suffering with bronchitis until the Games began. He probably had the best preparation of all 3 of them. You accuse me of biased, but at least I have all the facts at my disposal to inform my position.
You're clearly deluded and bitter about something. I doubt you even knew Jim Hedley. Cram didn't break 4 mins for a mile until 2.7. 1978, when he ran 3:57.42, which was a world junior record at the time. He was 17, 3 months short of 18. He didn't improve on that (by less than half a second) until August 79, just short of his 19th birthday. The idea he ran 3 x 1mile in under 4:00 in training at 16 or 17 is laughable. I doubt he could have done that at his peak in 85.
Grew up running high school x-country in the late 70's. Cram, Coe and Ovett were idols. They were the best in the world and dominated 800-1 mile for around a decade. Remarkable acheivements and midddle distance is so very entertaining to watch.
The mile is such a great spectator's race, love it.
1985 Dream Mile arguably the most talented group of milers in One race in history.
Coe = the great time trilaller, Ovett = the great racer, Cram = the great talent.
and even better it was a nice clean race where both athletes did not have to run wide (apart from first lap where Cram runs a little bit in lane 2). Great race!
"Coe had planned to have a somewhat quiet season in 1985, partly because of the intensity of the previous year's efforts to get himself ready in time for the Olympics, as well as a planned move up to 5000m, which never materialised. He suffered a recurrence of a back problem which had plagued him on and off since 1980, causing him to miss several weeks of training mid season."
In summary he turned up here in Oslo but was nowhere near fit as you can see with 200 to go. Cram never beat a fully fit Coe!!!
True. On the flip side Cram was not fit for the games in 1984. Given how good Cram was in 1985, I always wonder if Coe would have beat a fully fit Cram in LA.
@Friday’s are cool David Bedford ran the fastest times in his era becoming the fastest man in Britain in the 5,000 and 10,000. He also took 7 seconds off the 10,000 meter world record but that didn't make him the best runner. Olympic golds are what it's all about. How many did Cram win?
He did in the 1500m at the European champs 1986
@@Andrew-m5p4s No he didn't. As I said earlier Coe had a poor 1985 with injuries and that had a knock on effect for his winter training for the 1986 season. Yes, he beat Cram in the 800, but he didn't have enough in his legs to go again and win the 1500 metres v Cram. BUT, he was getting fitter with every race and by September he ran his best ever 1500 metre time so he was getting there! The closest they both came to being fully fit racing each other was the Olympic 1500 metres in 1984.
@@KryptonitetoallBS no, cram was only 80 percent fit for LA 84
Amazing run thank you for posting
Magic!
David coleman at his absolute best here, what a commentary.
What a race. Crammy at his peak, like a rolls royce.
1985 and 1986 Cram was unbeatable.
Cram was full of running here at the end and capable of at least 2 seconds faster if he’d gone with 600m to go.
He said he regrets not going for the record on the last lap (concentrating just on winning) as he had a lot left. In his book from 82, he said he'd have run 3:46.5 that night had he "gone all out at the bell". So, if we then deduce the 0.5 for no drafting, his time comes down to 3:46.0, with splits of 55.3, 58.0, 58.1, 54.6; with a fastest composite 880 of 1:49.9 (800 of 1:49.3). Even out the splits for both men and you get something around the 3:45 mark.
However, having said that, Cram was definitely capable of 3:45 flat that day with better pacing over the first 3 laps. His 440 splits were not even at all, going 57.2, 57.3 (these are ok but not ideal), 58.6, 53.2. Meaning his fastest composite 880 was 1:50.4 (1:49.8 for 800m). Although Cram's last lap was faster than Coe's in his 3:47.3 WR, their actual performances were pretty much on a par when you break them down.
Cram just simply runs away from Coe! Wow!
53 LAST LAP !!!!!!!!!!!! SEB WAS RECOVERING FROM A BACK INJURY AND SHOULD NOT HAVE RUN...CRAM AND GONZALEZ WERE ENIGMATIC @
Its amazing that the record has improved by only three seconds since then. Tells you how amazing the record was for its time. Im wondering if a day will come when a women will break a 4 minute mile. The current record is 4m 12s. Probably a ways off before we see a sub 4 minute mile for women.
4.12 was the mens record for decades until those dominant Finns of the 1920's
Both Ovett and Coe thought if they just followed Cram, they'd out kick him in the last 200. He was amazing for those few years.
Hi mate! Sorry for delay, been/am ill!
I don't think Cram would have run any faster on the day with the same distribution of pace up to 500 to go. I think had he gone from 500 out then he'd have had an extra 100m in front with no drafting, and he would probably have run out of steam in the last 150. That's not to say I don't think he'd have been beaten. He would have won whether he'd had gone 500 out or 300 or even 200 on that day in that form, with Coe below his best.
Coe's splits were even more unevenly distributed over the first 3 laps (55.3, 58.0 - dreadful drop in pace, 58.6). Byers moved wide just before 1000m, so Coe didn't have that next 200m of drafting to the bell which Cram had in his race. That equates to about a 0.5 advantage for Cram. Coe also said that he was "holding something back on the last lap" for his kick with 100 to go.
If coe was fully fit what time would the winner have got?
If you can find me any performance from Cram where he ran as fast as Coe did in LA at the end of a 3:32 or faster 1500 race (or equivalent Mile) then I'll bow to your opinion. You won't find one. And when Coe won the 1500 at 84 Olympics, it was his 7th race in 9 days. Cram NEVER put together such a series of high intensity in his entire career. Cram's record is not as good as Coe's at 1500m, despite it being Coe's 2nd event. 2 Olympic golds, a 1500 WR and 3 x 1 Mile records, trumps Cram.
Great runner.
Steve Cram; an all time great if ever there was one.
@Daz555Daz Cram's coach said he was in a similar position going into LA as he'd been before the previous year's World Champs. He was short of a few races, but he wouldn't have gone to LA if he felt he wasn't capable of winning it. The difference is that in Helsinki, it went 3:41, in LA it was 3:32. Coe also didn't have a great build up in 84 and missed several months training in winter. Coe ran the last 800m in 1:49.8 & last 100m in 12.7 in LA.
Oh, btw, Coe's last 4 x 100m went 14.0, 14.2, 13.8, 13.1. He only kicked with 100 to go, and was getting faster all down the homestraight. His last 40m (rarely taken in a mile race but shown on screen in that Brussels race ) was 5.06, which is 12.6 pace for 100m. So although his last 100 was marginally slower than Cram's, he was accelerating compared to his previous 100m, while Cram was slowing. And Coe's acceleration continued all the way to the line.
Thanks for your concern. It's cool. But it's complete conjecture Cram would have been allowed to get to the front with 300m to go, especially at that pace.
Hope that helps and makes sense? If Coe from 81 or late 84 raced Cram of 85 with perfect pacing and drafting to bell I'm sure we'd have seen a sub 3:45. To be honest, I don't think any athlete has ACTUALLY run sub 3:46 clean, but that's another issue.
wow, Cram beats Coe head to head in this race and runs a WR almost a second faster than Coe ever did? Incredible.
This was the golden era of middle distance running,it's the same old story some people like one of them more than another, I was always an Ovett fan,but over the years iv'e mellowed and now judge them as the three of them should have been judged at the time. All three were fantastic atheletes and we in the U.K will never have the top three middle distance runners in the world, in the same era.
@kozmon0t -Lucky you! It's a shame Webb has disappeared since his 3:46 a few years ago. That would be good enough at present to be right at the top. I know a lot of it's down to injuries and he's on the comeback at the moment. Ran a 3:41 last week and a 1:48 800m. I think he's running in Milan on the 9th. Unfortunately, I think he'll have to be even better than he was in 2007 if he's going to medal next year, as he hasn't much of a kick compared to other in a slow tactical race.
Hi jmcd2v!
There's really not a lot going on in the UK at the moment in men's middle distance, I'm sorry to say. Even our 3rd or 4th ranked guys in the 80's would beat what we have now. The US seem to have more potential than us at present. Symmonds I think is still learning the event and could get down to mid 1:43 this year, and Webb &Lagat are both a force to be reckoned with in the Mile when in top form. I really don't see Baddeley getting any better or winning any medals now at 28 this year.
I agree with you Deano, I believe Cram comes a close third. Hard to call between Ovett and Coe, but my god what we would do for any of them now.
It was known before LA in Britain, that he had an injury in the mid season, but he also said he wouldn't go to the Olympics if he didn't believe he could win it. Both Ovett and Coe also missed races at home in June that year due to injuries. Where are the arguments for them not being in their best shape in LA? Cram underestimated Coe, and the excuses were being voiced straight after, well before the next season. Just as they did in 86 after he got beat in the 800.
The BBC commentary was so biased towards Cram at this time, just because Brendan Foster was Cram's mentor. I mean, the attention is all on Cram, they clearly want him to win. Coe was the reigning Olympic champion and Mile record holder, but is barely a footnote. They also conveniently forget to mention Coe was just back from a month out with injury. Complete lack of respect.
Lol!
Happy New Year to you too!
I'm afraid Cram comes 3rd behind Coe and Ovett. He would need an Olympic title to get above them for starters, and a few more Wr's I'm afraid.
Not at all. I have Ovett's biography in font of me now, and he said the problems only arose as the heats began. I'll quote it for you if thats what it takes. As for the tv, as I clearly said, no one person is responsible. Different references give different answers. Wiki says Baird "first publicly demonstrated television on 26 January 1926, in his small laboratory in the Soho district of London". But I can't be bothered to argue the toss about that.
If they'd hit the bell about 3 secs slower then maybe Coe would have given him a close run that night. Cram went all out with about 350m to go, and hit his top speed round the last bend. He was actually slowing up a bit in the last 100m; his last 4 x 100m went - 14.2, 13.2, 12.6, 12.9. So, had he gone 500 out, he'd probably have run his fastest 100 section down the backstretch.
kelly holmes
right there cram with better drafting and pacing goes 345 easy. coe had the best set of tools all time at 1500, just ask ovett, walker, coghlan, and the rest. he never put it all together, though he got right once in a while, his positioning was one of the worst ever.
I think you'll find that no one individual actually invented television, although most recognise John Logie Baird as the inventor of the world's first working television system in Hastings, England in 1923. He was a Brit (Scot) not an American.
Sad that Steve did not marry Paula Radcliff. What athletes they might have produced!
Cram looked marvellous from a side view at full flow, but he had a unorthodox foot placement, which was part of the reason he had intermittent calf injuries.Head on he could look ungainly, especially when his head started rolling from side to side. He beat Cruz in the 800 at Zurich in 85 btw, not 83. A lot of races have disappeared, probably due to some violation of rights!
You have pointed out that Coe may have run 3.45 give the right conditions. Do you not think Cram might have run 3.44 or 3.45 in this race as he looks to be full of running at the end - maybe if Coe had not been there as perhaps he showed him too much respect and could have gone from 500M out.
Mister I can see you're from the States, so with the greatest respect, I was watching these guys running domestically in the UK week in week out at this time, reading their interviews in AW and following all the articles written in the British newspapers. Cram was being bigged up all the time leading up to LA in the UK press, and Coe was given little chance in most quarters. I have the articles where Cram said he was in the same place as 83.
Coe was ill in Edinburgh. He was scratched by the team doctor with a fever. What do you want, a doctor's sick note!? You've either invented or heard a rumour in the US which is without any validity. Do you think Ovett was feigning illness in LA? If Coe had carried on in Edinburgh he'd have ended up permanently damaged like Ovett was. FYI, Cram ran 7 races in the 2 months up to LA (incl 3 races in 4 days in mid July). Not what you'd expect from an injured athlete. Coe ran 4. Only 1 in July.
? I presume you mean she won her Olympic medals while in her 30's!? Of course Baddeley could improve, but it's not the norm to start running faster after 28. Women are more likely to reach their peak later than men in middle distance events, but it really comes down to the individual.
After LA Cram run 4 races within 18 days of the end of the Games, with big wins in Brussels and Koblenz, against the likes of Scott, Bile and Walker. Is that the sort of racing schedule of someone who is unfit?
@bijection765 Yes, because now they have a decent test for EPO. Not full proof, but at least they have one now. They didn't in the 90's and they first test up to 2006 was pretty useless too.
Lol! So you read The Times, Guardian, etc throughout summer 84 to know what was going on? Which channel did you get your insights from? Fox News? I wouldn't presume to know the in depth preparation of American athletes being the other side of the pond. Ovett wasn't suffering with bronchitis until the Games began. He probably had the best preparation of all 3 of them. You accuse me of biased, but at least I have all the facts at my disposal to inform my position.
You're clearly deluded and bitter about something. I doubt you even knew Jim Hedley. Cram didn't break 4 mins for a mile until 2.7. 1978, when he ran 3:57.42, which was a world junior record at the time. He was 17, 3 months short of 18. He didn't improve on that (by less than half a second) until August 79, just short of his 19th birthday. The idea he ran 3 x 1mile in under 4:00 in training at 16 or 17 is laughable. I doubt he could have done that at his peak in 85.