My greatest disappointment is that it has been this long and no one has yet corrected me for saying Ben-Hur is an isekai, when clearly i meant John Carter. Is no one fact checking me? My Warframe Lore Playlist: ruclips.net/p/PLVRI7Hc-pawnl8YxoUd7aiUJBS1Zy1qhn&si=CFTvT1NTK6s3WnNP I also want to shout out another warframe lore youtuber: @TheDsEIGE. I wrote a full section disagreeing with their The Dream theory about Duviri, but it was cut for time. It was still an inspiration that helped me analyze the quest, regardless.
I JUST discovered them as well and have devoured so much of their insightful musings over the past few days. I also urgently need to review your OG warframe philosophy vids.
Never watched Beh-Hur yet though I've heard it's about chariot racing in the antiquity and it got me to thinking maybe it's an isekai where a present day man got isekaied as a famous chariot racer? 🤣
i'd also say that putting Sao in the isekai world seems less logical than puttin in overlord, after all Kirigaya is STILL in his real world while accessing a game, and more MORE later, entering his conciousness/dream (rath) thus making him STILL in his original world anyway. Still a good example after all and a great video, take care dear reader, you're deserving love.
so many people miss that the kid in the final memory of "thrax" is you. its your operators appearance used as the child hiding next to the conceptual embodiment that would become thrax. thrax is a vessel for the drifter emotions. its why thrax believes the toy is his. because he believes he is the player. its why the child is darked out in the memories' until that final one where its revealed they are your memories the whole time. the embodiment known as thrax is just filled with the drifters emotions from the accident. a vessel for a child's trauma and thus acts like a child.
I am pretty sure they are pulling from the Drifter's character data and not the Operators. My cutscene as depicted didnt have my operator's hair. As much, I made my argument based on what i saw. While this correction has been confirmed for me elsewhere, I believe there is plenty to argue that Thrax is-was his own person, and not just a conceptual embodiment. As long as you watched and engaged with the ideas in the middle of the video, I'm Not terribly concerned with whether or noty fan theory is correct.
@@SocraTetris Conceptual Embodiments can be people but as it stands Duviri and its people were created by the Drifter. The Tenno are conceptual embodiments as well, at least according to Archimedean Yonta, another conceptual embodiment.
@@SocraTetristhough I do have one observstion, I think it might have been a bug when it didn't show your operator model. When I did the quest, I saw my bright multi coloured hair on the child baricaded in the classroom.
I was able to figure this part out. It is actually pulling the hair model from the Drifter, i believe. My drifter is bald, but my operator has hair. I'm not 100% sure, but we could attribute the hair to be a cheap way to create a resemblance between Drifter and Thrax, rather than saying directly that the Drifter is that child. A family resemblance. I'll re-point towards that we know when the operator and Drifter timelines split. It is in the classroom with other children when the deal was made with TMITW.
The Maws coming to Duviri as a result of you using tranferrance on one during the War Within is interesting. It makes sense, especially since she mentioned that they started devouring eachother, which also happened during the War Within.
It also makes me worried what other shenanigans are going to happen in duviri in future quests. Cuz yknow... we started that whole transference into necromechs thing. That mightbhave some consequences down the line
@SocraTetris Interestingly enough, Alchemy was recently added as a game mode to The Circuit. Duviri changes yet again as a response to changes in the Origin system.
It took me way longer to get the quest than it should have. But Dominus was alone and traumatized, so he used the Tales of Duviri as a coping mechanism. And eventually used being a king in it, using everyone in it as toys as coping mechanisms. Then you as his antagonist sort of was his friend that played with him. You wanted to leave him behind as he was quite a toxic friend, but when Teshin came, you not only had Dominus but also Teshin who you did care about. Dominus hated you for wanting to leave because he would be lonely again and have no one to play with. You got angry at him for killing Teshin. And when you found out that he was just a child playing with toys not wanting to be lonely, you gave him playground as long as he doesn't mess with you. Like an older sibling putting their younger brother in his place. Chosing to leave or stay is also choosing between playing with him or leaving him play with his toys on his own.
One more thing to note is that Thrax is you. Or atleast a part of you. You were the one using The Tales of Duviri as a coping mechanism in the aftermath of The Zariman incident, and through conceptual embodiment, the void took your emotions and made them real, creating all the characters from the story, but twisting them through the lens of the horror you had experienced. At the end of the quest you see the figurine and remember the past. The figurine was --MINE (as dominus cuts you off). And with that realization comes the knowledge that you created Duviri, you were the king all along. And that's what let's you reset the Spiral and be free. In effect the entire story is about The Drifter overcoming their trauma from The Zariman.
@@malaki7335i remember that specific part at the end of the quest. Wasn't thrax's hand sticking out of a void concretion on the wall like a void angel does? I wonder if using the story as a coping mechanism and spawning duviri within the void allowed them to poke through during the zariman explosion. Or maybe Thrax's hand is just a metaphor for the trauma the zariman incident caused? Maybe both?
1:42:14 personal bookmark to continue later After reading about the lost islands of Duviri and some of the horrors they hold it would be awesome if they materialised out of the void during certain spirals like Kullervos hold
This is an exemplary video that made me question and reexamine alot of my fundamental assumptions about the dynamics of not just Duviri but Warframe's storyline as a whole. You should be immensely proud of yourself for the extent of content you provide this community and the cerebral capacity by which you discuss it. My favorite part imparticular being the subsection on the commoners of Duviri, I was waiting for you to dig into the boastful kaithe rider the entire time. I totally missed how the children lacking an arm is a total subversion of the long arms of the Orokin and presents an inverse representation of the traits we commonly associated with them, that's a brilliant observation! I can't even begin to venture a guess as to how long an analysis of this degree would take, weaving in both the external cited sources and the speculation of the plot. I only wish that I got your opinion on some of the supplementary material surrounding this update. But, because of that I am left with a few questions of my own. For instance: 1) Most citizens of Duviri are either of the kintsugi pottery reminiscent appearance who were originally onboard the Zariman or deliberately specified as "landing" there from the origin system and retaining thier "human" traits. However, with subsequent updates, there is an exception to this with the warden who resembles Ballas but is "sculpted" like all of Duviri's characters. I wonder if this is conceptual embodiment through Teshin as an outside agent of Duviri, or if when Ballas "died" like Teshin did, Lotus' method of casting him out resulted in Ballas showing up in Duviri as incomplete. 2) not so much a question but with the latest expansion: "Whispers in the Walls" remnants of Albrecht's notes can be found and listened to in your codex. In one, he exposits on his time in Duviri, how he relates it to his Daughter who is Duviri's author and the pride she feels in her. It's vague but he also mentions how there are plans for Duviri as well, and it will be needed in the future. 3) The video extrapolates an outcome for the player character to be the god of two faces or a candidate to become "Janus" having some relationship to the Janus key. But I feel like I disagree with the idea that we're the ONLY character with 2 or more faces. The most immediate answer IS the tenno. Afterall, we have the drifter and the many faces of the warframes we operate. But I call into question the canon of how multiplayer exists in Duviri and whether or not it's a narrative disconnect to facilitate gameplay. Given the events of the New War marking us as THE tenno who shook Wally's hand, I'm wagering that's the case. Your theory also extrapolates on the possibility of Wally being Janus, possessing our form as well as... the dude in the wall who show up in the New War, also showing up with other abilities via Whispers' grimoire. However even then, I propose that there is one other candidate who fits the namesake: most definitely Natah. Her entire backstory is dependent upon the context of her being a sentient mimic, her ability to replicated and change faces, and the significance of the faces she wears affecting the at once the story, her choosen role and the choices she deliberates. 4) I REALLY like your theory on the identity of Dominus Thrax. Several interpretations think that he is some subconscious divided aspect of the drifter, but it ignores that if thrax and the drifter are one and the same, that they answer to different pronouns and honorifics (if you have a female character, thrax is still "king" rather than "queen.") But I do see one aspect in Thrax's flashbacks that is incongruent with these findings. If Thrax really is our younger sibling, then in the Envy cutscene, our player model would be the one being presented with the award on stage. Just a thought. Once again, I just wanted to thank you so much for making this video. I think what DE has accomplished with this game and it's themes of identity are exceptional to such a degree that content made by the fanbase feels alot less like fanart and more like supplementary material in an expanded universe outside of the borders of the software. Many have come and gone for several reasons, but when I see Warframe fans make something, I seldom imagine or hear them as the person playing the game, rather the warframe or in game persona that they choose based on how it's filmed and expressed. Several of these creators present their content in such ways that influence the immersion of the game's world, for instance, about 3 I remember using the persona of an originally created cephalon. Your content, while differing from that in many senses, made me nostalgic for that time period.
thank you for your thoughtful comment, sardonicart! I will definitely keep making these videos, and the Whispers in the Walls video will happen this year. I hope you enjoy it as much as this one :)
This is excellent! I love Duviri and the story around it, as well as the theme of emotional management and how it's implemented. A nice long video going through everything has been really interesting as well as the interpretations.
This is a BLOODY awesome video. Youre not just telling us lore, and explaining it. Youre actually guiding us and telling the story in the form of imaginative prose, whilst providing all sorts of philosophical perspectives and fictional comparisons to enhance your explanation and highlight the strengths and significance of this quest. Thank you for your hard work tenno!
As someone who played with this BEFORE the New War, My reactions were "Oh..." "Ah..." and "it makes sense now" watching this video. I enjoy playing this game because someone like me who has a very well self-educated background in multiverse and quantum physics, it is full of treasures unlike anything
I think the story of the 3 ungrieving children indeed suggest we must be willing to lose to gain, but moreso as a parallel of the ending that soon follows. Where had we given up our old man without regret, we could've ruled Duviri. However the drifter, now allowing themselves to feel, decides to give up Duviri and freedom, to continue the struggle of a life with emotions.
@@SocraTetris It's okay, no rush :) Better we experience it first before anything else I'm still in "The Commoners" section of the video, but I wanna ask, why omit Kullervo, his Hold, and the "Ballas"-like character in the analysis? Is it too minor for the overall theme of the video?
2:45:47 I find the old sage's line here being a contradiction to one of the cores of the tale of duviri so interesting. Perhaps his placement under one symbol of enlightenment but surrounded by a cave suggests while his isolation has made him wise there are things he is still ignorant to. Even a representation of how orokin adults knew much but could never learn to manage their emotions?
It is curious. I would say the simplest answer is that they had a writer that wasn't involved with the main story on this, or they allowed the voice actor to ad-lib
My charitable interpretation is that the quote actually more so refers to looking back on what made you anxious, rather than ignoring your emotions. Like "what looked to be a mountain, from behind looks like just a mole hill" kind of idea. Though it would be, perhaps even more, interesting if this did represent the fact that the sage old man is himself fallible in his wisdom.
I think the mausoleum may have been Lua itself or at least the part of it that held the dreaming Tenno, the islands disappearance could line up nicely with the Warframes pulling the moon out of the void to protect the sleeping operators.
I thought The Lotus was the one to hide the Moon? We just helped her pull it back out; I don't think the Tenno was the one to do alone. It's also been a really long time since I played that mission so there's a really high chance of me being super wrong.
Personally i would think that the Doll Mausoleum was not literally the Tenno Resevoir, but it's exit from Duviri could easily coincide with our joint effort to temove Lua from the void. Events in the void affect Duviri, but it is its own reality/timeline
First of all, great video! I always enjoy your stuff. I'm so glad you mentioned the Janus thing. I've been thinking about it for quite a while and never made the conection to Wally's appearance in the New War, so I always atributed the idea to the tenno. We are Janus, the Two-Faced God of Doorways that stands between 2 worlds: one of blood and steel, our world, and the world that watches and dreams, the Void. It could be that Wally wants us because of this power, so that he may finally be able to enter our world. But as far as we can see he gave us that power, gave us Janus (hence his missing face in the New War). So the question remains. What does he want? That's the question, isn't it, kiddo?
There is still room for Wally to be the two-faced god on their own. Both appearing as whoever is witnessing them, and as the Vetruvian Wall. I think this doesnt quite count, because their are borrowing our face. They don't technically have a second face of their own. I am, however, trying to find a good place in one of these videos to point out that this is a Full Metal Alchemist reference. It is literally Truth sitting in front of the Sephiroth-designed door, while using edward/alphonse's face
@@SocraTetrisIt's been a long time since I watched FMA so i dont remember Truth or his scenes that well, but thats a really cool detail. I may rewatch it just for that 😆
2:44:01 i think what this line means is about belief what we see with our own eyes if we are not under the effect of anything is there , but when it’s something we cannot see like a theory of a deity its the unknown like magic to kids , but being hard set in a theory blinds you to other possibilities if you love it so much to ignore other possibilities its as if your under a spell
The tenno at the end of the quest is our operator (the young Drifter who didnt take the deal). The quest may have been bugged early on or something because I see what you mean in the footage you have. But watching any videos of the quest recently shows it its the oeperator. As further evidence, if you dont have an operator yet, the child shown at the end of the quest inherits the customization from your drifter, and thats what the operator will look like when you play Second Dream. I think this makes the most sense for the story. The characters are born from the young Drifter's trauma. And throughout the quest we regain our memories, eventually uncovering that we are the King of Duviri (which was hinted at by the way all of the characters act towards us). And with that realization comes the ability to control Duviri and reset the spiral. But good work on the video! I always enjoy your analysis. I especially enjoy all your theories about the Lost Islands.
Can you provide a link that demonstrates that operator model being used? Perhaps their Operator coincidentally looks like the basic design being used by the cutscene. Because that isnt the only reference /evidence in the quest for that conclusion. For example, canonically refering to this person as "he" when the drifter can be either man or woman and is referred to at "they" most often.
@@SocraTetris I found a playthrough with a hair color that makes it the easier to see. Here is a clip of the scene at the end. ruclips.net/user/clipUgkxIOV2AIOfmkz7x9BxDuml6GLyFsIHAUp1?si=Yd2Ie_iChFoWnpeV And about the discrepancy with referring to the King only as he, I see it this way: Dominus Thrax is not literally the Operator or another Tenno from The Zariman. He is just a character from a story book, just like the other Duviri characters. But when we read a story, we see ourselves in the characters, we relate to them. So in the chaos of the Zariman Incident, conceptual embodiment created Duviri through us, and it's characters our colored by our experiences. "Thax didn't make this place--- you did." Thrax isn't directly the Operator, he has autonomy, however he has been embued with our own desire to control our emotions and keep us safe from the outside world, no matter how unhealthy that may be. (He lays out this mindset in the confrontation with fake Teshin). Because that was the mindset of our Tenno in the aftermath of the Zariman, and presumably the intended lesson of the Tales of Duviri. I think this was the intended way to see the ending. As it makes the story directly about facing our own trauma and learning to deal with our emotions instead of blocking them out and becoming apathetic. If I had one complaint about the quest, it's that I wish that ending scene with our operator was a little longer and a little more clear, because I missed the realization the first time through. And only after watching the quest again a couple more times did I notice that it was the Operator.
Having viewed some other footage on youtube, all of which seems to have been posted 7 months ago, I don't believe there was a bug. I think that the tenno model in the cutscene is using the Drifter's code for which hair model to use. My drifter is shaved, hence why i thought this was just a default model. That said, I do not think this precludes my conclusion. For one, if this was meant to be our Drifter, why not just use the game's Operator model (mine does have that straight hair high-top fade thing) rather than the current Drifter's hair? Since this is what they did to express the Zariman child before the persona split during The New War. My countrr proposal is that this character model is using the current drifter's hair to make the familial relationship visibly represented. Just the model's skin tone would not be sufficient in thos regard, because rhe scene is grayscaled
@@SocraTetris Interesting. I thought it only showed the Operator with your drifters hair if you didn't have an operator yet. But I can't confirm because my operator and share the same hair anyhow. That would be strange if it didn't use the operator model. I would have to look closer at playthroughs to see if the characters body type changes based on your Drifter. Because wouldn't they always be male if it was meant to be Dominus Thrax? I think the sibling theory is interesting and makes sense for the most part. I just find it odd that at no point in the game has there been any mention of us having a sibling. I don't necessarily think the memories we see indicate they are our sibling either. If they were, wouldn't the operator be present in them? I also think your theory may rely too heavily on the one line of dialogue from Koral to determine that all the characters came from real people on The Zariman. Those could just be some of the drifters own memories making Koral feel like she was someone else before, because her existence is drawn from The Drifter. As some final evidence I just want to point out all the dialogue in the quest that I think points towards my theory: When the Drifter first crosses the bridge, the civilians say. "The king! The king! There goes are honored king," as you ride past. Bombastine later calls, "Someone who has everything" and refers to us as "Sire". Which I believe is because he knows we are the "King" of duviri. If I recall, there are also other instances where the characters of Duviri talk to us as if we are indistinguishable from The King, however I don't remember those lines off-hand. At the end of the quest after the scene revealing the identity of Dominus Thrax, the Drifter has a realization. "This... this is" Thrax finishes what The Drifter was about to say "--mine". The Drifter is and always was the King. And with that realization comes the immediate control over Duviri, and allows them to reset the spiral. But Warframe lore is not always the most clear. I could see the Sibling theory making sense, but I would like to see more evidence that we actually have a sibling first. Either way I think we are coming to very similar conclusions about the message and meaning of the story, which is what is most relevant anyhow. And perhaps we will get definitive answers about Thrax at some point in the future if they continue the Duviri storyline.
I can't believe I never considered that Thraxx wasn't us. I think I manifested false memories of Thraxx appearing to have our customized appearance at some point.
so it was brought to my attention that the final flashback with the void angel, the child in the cutscene uses the drifter's hair style, but only the hairstyle. Definitely not the operator model, which I believe means my theory is still on the table. That is why my cutscene is a dedault bald. cuz my drifter is bald
I think the you are trapped by your ability to symbolize statement is directed at The Drifter. They literally trapped themselves in a fantasy land filled with symbol characters of emotion. I think it's a call to open your eyes and see the real world. It's another way of saying, "Wake up, Tenno."
I absolutely think that was the major weakness of this quest. It was billed and delivered as an alternative starting point, but it just isn't. It is a singular mission type, and heavily relies on the context of The New War. Sometimes writers get too close to what they've written. They can lose track of what is common knowledge/obvious and what makes sense because it is familiar. That is why I'm trying to give the full context of everything in this video series
2:44:04, I honestly can't describe this one quite as well, I'm restraining myself from flat out telling you to read Umineko no Naku koro ni, which you really should do cause it's peak fiction, it mixes mystery, fantasy, psychology and philosophy woven to such perfection to create a life altering experience. But basically the term "Without love, it can not be seen" is thrown around the story a lot and in different contexts it can mean many things. I think this timestamped quote shouldn't be taken so literally, but rather it refers to one of the many meanings one can attribute to the term I mentioned before.
1:13:09 Before thrax's reign, before even the bleeding earth - Ordis then cuts in, followed by the archivist's description of a haunted man. Ah no, I know that the man is Albrecht?
i came up with a really neat thoery that feels like i just have to change a few identifiers and it would still be fairly plausable. i'd have to look for if it's still up and i don't remember where i posted it but basically the Drifter somehow got turned into Kullervo and it makes sense for Thrax Dominus to be our little brother, whom knowing we are his older brother created the world of diviri. And things still line up with only needing to perhaps explain a bit more detail. But part of why (in my theory) the drifter is being treated brutally is because if he leaves he'll just "become" or "release" kullervo to continue the massacre. This is also why Kullervo is not in Envy nor Joy is because they remember. While we're there for the warframe to use the man in the wall's intentions are hard for me to theorize, i wonder if he just wants everyone to leave the void. i'd have to think about how and why he's attacking those different islands.
I dont't think you can sell me on this integration of Kullervo. i will have a different video on that. But currently i think the simplest explanation is the Ballas turned into The Warden when falling into Duviri. Conceptual Embodiement brought Kullervo back into existence. It appears in the Sad and Fear cycles because their source material (the Kullervo cantos in the Kalevala) is an epic tragedy poem. I think simpler explanations are more likely here. At no point does the drifter become kullervo Plus, my drifter is a "she" and it is clearly stated that The Drifter created Duviri and gave it to thrax. not the other way.
2:49:23 i hard agree with the sentiment in this line. To me it's chaos vs order. Chaos will always bring uniqueness. Being unpredictably unkind also leads to being unpredictably kind. It's the spice of life basically. But being predictably unkind leads to routine. Routine then leads to apathy. Apathy then leads to the spiral the quest is all about. That's how i see it at least
I seriously just wanted to take the time to say thank you for your calm voice during this video. I just had the most intense feeling of rage for the entirety of my morning because some idiot on the internet kept brushing aside what i was trying to explain with "cite your sources" over and over while not engaging with anything i was saying and other people mocked me for it. Clicking onto this video after blasting slipknot to cope with my anger is a major breath of fresh air i didnt know i needed. Kinda like stepping out of a void storm and back into the origin system lol Anyways apologies for my rambling. I just really wanted to express how much your tone grounded me back in reality
I'm glad that I could help you in this way, Cresto. I've received a few comments that perhaps I went too far in the calming voice direction with this video. But it was the right call if it helped you feel better today.
Only potential problem with Thrax being our brother is we literally see the Drifter CREATING Thrax in the quest, it’s brief but it’s in the moment we see the duviri book iirc. Other than that amazing video and analysis of Duviri, I’d love for you to disect the NPCs more! This has def solidified Duviri as my favorite open world, right next to Deimos (especially with the witw update (which I hope you talk about eventually too!))
I've heard this. in that section i had interpreted that hand as a void angel's hand. People have told me it has distinct markers from Thrax. i'm not certain we can say that was the drifter making thrax frim whole cloth. Either way, I won't be hinging ant future analysis on that theory. I think that the rest lf the video's exploration of the themes is the real meat of it. (the fan theory was just a hook for the script's narrative arc 🤫)
The handshake was the deal that our consciousness would find another body and thanks to Balyss, we found the Drifter. Every other version of ourselves perished exept 1 thanks to Balyss connecting us to another with the sword, and wally giving drifter the Lotus' hand. A deal once shook after all
Personally, i think the "deal" only represents the one between the zarimen children and Wally. I don't think Ballas has any involvement in it. My evidence would be that Orokin society never encountered or believed in The Man in The Wall. Even with the finger relics existing as evidence, Albrecht's epitaph explains how no one ever encountered "the other" again. Just cu the void is involced doesnt mean wally dictates what happens. Wally is in the void. They are not the void itself. (Imo, they are not a god in the way the most popular fan theories portray them.)
Excellent video, as always! It's an interesting take for sure, I haven't thought of a younger sibling being involved in any way. I viewed Dominus as a self insert into the story if that makes sense, especially with the last emotional flashback with the void angel, where the child takes on the appearance of our Operator/Drifter. In my mind, he was a mirror of ourselves, attempting to keep us safe. It made sense, since he doesn't age, which could imply he follows the time rules of Duviri, unlike other human characters present, like Teshin for example. I think the idea of a younger sibling just hadn't crossed my mind due to them never being mentioned in the 'main' timeline, but that is easily explained by them being exclusive to the Drifter timeline.
The factor that I point to as to why it wouldn't be in the Operator's story could be attributed to how much of the Operator's story is based in having forgotten what happened to them before the Second Dream (the time spent living as Warframes). It was a convenient "amnesia" storytelling device originally. It still functions as that now, because the operator only remembers the Zarimen, but not much of what happened before the Zarimen. Because Warframe's storytelling doesn't like to spell things out directly, there is a lot of room for interpretation and re-interpretation as new story comes out.
That was a pretty decent video, SocraTetris. I just wanted to remind you that everyone has their own ways of processing their emotions, and as long as they're finding healthy ways to cope and manage their feelings, that's what matters the most
I completely agree. The sections that go through the various emotions is meant to highlight how they are presented from a limited/limiting perspective in fiction and in society as metaphorical constructs. Nothing In my video should be a moral critique on emotional expression by people living in that ambiguity.
I'm actually very excited for xmas this year. First Xmas as a married man with a house and a cat. Gonna invite my parents/inlaws and have a roasted duck from the chinese food restaurant we frequent.
I think thrax was made by drifter, and when time went by thrax took his memories, traumas and emotions remembering that he created something, he believes he created YOU
I do feel for the character too. Wanted to make sure that section of the video took him seriously. I doubt what he did to Luscinia is forgivable (if we ever find out what that was.)
He himself says "the thing i did were meant to break her. not make her his favorite." No one accuses him. He outs himself to get credit for something terrible
@SocraTetris my immediate thought was overly harsh vocal training, attempting to ruin her mentally or physically, but instead it strengthened her talents and made her the best.
It is not 100% confirmed that "The Other" replaced entrati. The Albrecht in the fragments seems to be working against the influence of TMITW, which we can see by him giving void technology which is said to keep tmitw at bay, such as the lighthouse's seriglass. I do not believe Teshin was fully dead when he fell into the void. If he were dead, and had no consciousness, then no conceptual embodiement could occur. Since he was alive, but unconscious, I believe that is in fact the same Teshin
Im contemplating doing a review/ breakdown of this video from a Taoist & Hindu perspective. You're spot on, on so many levels, but I think one could go so so much deeper when it comes to the spiral as a representation of samsara, the chain of births and deaths and emotions as the signposts of our attachments or aversions that bind us to samsara. I must admit, im only 2.5 hrs in, so maybe you'll cover that.
That is a great idea, Quantum_Idealism! and i hope you do. So that is where i was going to start originally, but as I got into the research and writing, I just didnt find the connecting points. Desire, as the emotion that creates attachment and thus remaining in samsara, doesnt have explicit reference. And the drifter actively desiring to leave, as well as the spirals potentially not being how Duviri always was, broke down my good faith attempt to talk about it. I'm also currently waiting for the story to do something else with the yin-yang choices so that I can continue the discussion of taoist themes from my original, 9-hour video. If you do find that angle to explore the Samsara concept in Duviri, I would love to see it! Please comment again when you've made it :)
@@SocraTetrisdefinitely, if I can find the time. I also totally understand why you'd take a different approach. The story has some deviations from a story about a path to enlightenment, but there are a lot of useful parallels. As far as desire goes, id point out that there's no where to stand and exploring this may be a way around this deviation. Desire is what binds you to samsara, but aversion to desire also binds you. To attain enlightenment, you must have the desire to attain it, but have also let go of that desire for attainment. Once again a paradox within a paradox. Perhaps the reseting of the spiral at the end of the quest and the option to stay in duviri, was the letting go of the desire to leave samsara, but my thoughts are a little muddled on this. What I'm most interested to explore though is how emotions useful for finding where your clinging and how to use them practically to help guide your spiritual path.
@@SocraTetris what i meant was they didn’t say they cast off the teachers or the parents just the island , so maybe the teacher settled in a cave because thats what was familiar
Being newbie I thought this quest is just some Elden Ring wanna be spin-off to give variety and keep new players intrested in the game, but after finishing all avalible quests and seeing duviri again in your video a lot of stuff made sense. As new player I think it shouldn't be avalible from the beginning, but at least after war within, because you just getting into sci-fi game playing as space ninja and here comes side quest from mmorpg which you don't know has a connection to overall story. Also thanks for expanding my knowledge of philosophy : p
"You are trapped by your ability to symbolize." This comes pretty intuitively to me as an artist and observer. One of the first things I was taught when I, a self-taught artist, put away enough pride to let myself be taught in a mandatory art class for an elective requirement (I loved being taught and humbled so much that I actually went to uni for art after that degree!), was to distance myself from the brain's Symbolic Network-I learned about what that even is from her. A great example is why for even great artists, the hands are always so hard, is because we're so familiar with them. They're so entrenched in our symbolic network we can't be objective in drawing them; simply put-your ability to create symbols, to create meaningful stand-ins, is interfering from your ability to see how things are. Symbols are not facts, they're summaries. The advice he's giving is to step back, let yourself be immersed, and derive meaning from what you observe without ascribing your own to it first.
That's interesting, because you are coming at it from a position of semiotics. I think I can explain thag sentence in game better now thanks to you. Semiotics is the study of symbols. A "signifier" is thr object observed. A "signified" is the thought created in the mind ofbthr observer. and a "sign" is the two happening as an event. However, this is where the idea "Observation is value-laden" comws in. Using the epistemology of Bertrand Russell, a "Sensate" is the physical world interacting with your body's ability tobhave sensation. For example, light hitting you optic nerve. A "Percept" is your mind taking that signal and creating an experience/short term memory from information. It is a mental construct that requires the context of our full history of sensation and perception to be formed. Like you said, we see a hand, and we understand it in the context of every hand we have ever seen, the abstract concept of a hand. The Percept relies on our Signified experience. This does, however, create a challenge to what you said at the end. "derive meaning from what you observe without ascribing your own first." From what we've described above of how the process works, is this even possible? We don't have conscious access to our sensations, only our perceptions. Even immediate experiences of pain are slightly delayed perceptions, not the sensation of the nerves. Even then, a sensation is a phenomenon of some mediary between the object and our sensation. In this case it is the light from the hand to our eye. The sensation is not the object, not the signifier. Our nerves are also a mediary. So, when we try to immerse ourselves for the creation of art, but we are not experiencing the object, but rather our value-laden perception, necessarily, what then are we doing? We would be calling on other meanings, other Signifieds, to have different percepts of the hand. Specifically calling on those other percepts to achieve the goal of drawing the hand accurately. Calling various signifieds related to shapes, texture, light, and color associated with our medium of art. We are coming to understand different aspects of the object, and thus it is objective knowledge, but no moreso than our previous observation that didnt allow us to draw the hand. Because this new set of percepts still relies on our subjectively constructed meanings. It is only a different set of subjectivity related specifically to representation of the object in art. Thus, the statement from the man in the cave holds true regardless. We are limited by our ability to symbolize.
I may be over thinking it but since warframe like mixing physics and mysticism, I just think all those within duviri were you at some point but since you are in repeat, those spots can't be empty so something has to exist there then you forget that was you.
i've heard a few fan theories like that. I personally dont ascribe to it, because I think enough in the story demonstrates that the spirals are not an inherent part of Duviri. A spiral can happen as a result of the acting ruler (drifter or thrax) causing it or having an emotional episode. Acrithis doesnt describe spirals happening in the codex entries of other islands. I personally would not like the metaphorical implications if Duviri had to be in the throws of emotional trauma at all moments, past and future
@@SocraTetris yeah the spirals aren't inherent to duviri (duviri is timeless so spirals wpuld have to happen) but since you, as a person, stuck in infinity is controlling reality. I would imagine your emotions would start to dictate that reality and why the "king" was a toy in reality and everyone seem focused on your actions.
@@SocraTetris Thanks Tetris ;) One of the first things I noticed btw was the moment the Drifter gets empowered by the Lotus' hand, the first thing they do is laugh... :) I found a poem from someone called Hafez that mentions "Laughter is the glorious sound of my own soul waking up" This poem inspired a company to call itself "Laughing Lotus". Probably just a coincidence but my curiosity was piqued because it is the start of their emotional healing. 1:35:30 : in vino veritas :D 2:27:16 : I believe, rather than proving (some) the denizens of Duviri are made from Zariman crew, that this might be more about her having memories as Koral throughout the spirals but being an unchanging/unaging being she wonders about how she came to be. For the "Outlaw" it questions if they were always a part of Duviri. 2:33:40 : A nurse losing her mind over death only borrows her despair from those who died or are dying, it is empathy, not really" "their own" pain, her purpose/duty/mental stability can be strengthened by it. For the Drifter this could relate to them being overwhelmed by the deaths of the other Zariman crew members. 2:35:25 : It was at this part that his speaking pattern reminded me of Musashi's: "You must study this deeply.", "You should investigate this thoroughly.", ... I just get a feeling of deja vu from this quote that I can't explain. Perhaps I'm mixing up teachings about the "monkeys of the mind" and quotes about mastery by people like Bruce Lee as you said... or perhaps even Jung. For the Drifter this could relate to the duality with the Operator as well. 2:44:00 : This sounds like a description of falling in love with things like "thoughts". Just describing it as magic because it isn't tangible but it is there. This, like most things, can be positive or negative, like having and idealized version of a person you love in your mind. For the Drifter they must've loved the story of Duviri a lot to have made a whole conceptual embodiment of it in the Void. 2:48:38 : This one is basically just commenting on how the Drifter created Thrax, the courtiers and Duviri through conceptional embodiment, Thrax is basically our childhood trauma (like Skittergirl) made manifest to save ourselves but we were also trapped in/by our trauma. This is also similar to how Rell had emotion-symbolization training, I feel like the Drifter is the version of us that followed something similar to Rell's path instead of making a deal. 2:49:10 : I'd say this comes closer to: “It's not the destination, it's the journey” rather than "ignorance is bliss". Life in general is a struggle (unkind) to survive: You can know or predict things but some unpredictability makes it "life", if you didn't have that you'd be omniscient and know everything, which is god-like/not really living a "life". Also for the Drifter, it could relate to them repeating the spirals, apathy through predictability. 2:49:57 : a friend of mine says this a lot xD 2:51:33 : Reminded me of this quote: "He who has a why to live can bear almost any how" from Nietzsche, the Drifter didn't have a "why" to leave Duviri before now. Also your description about trying to stop suffering reminds me of quotes like: "We suffer because we desire." as well BUT you can't give up desiring because that would be a desire as well so you can't give up suffering in life. 2:54:15 : This is a mention of Christianity in the Warframe universe??? Amazing that it is with a phrase about dividing the masses through misinformation. xD Also seems to touch upon the Drifter's past apathy which was semi-enabled through Thrax's spirals. Paradox solved: Thrax being our sibling would have weird implications, us leaving them behind on the throne instead of trying to heal them. I believe still believe they're closer to our version of Skittergirl, a childhood trauma/coping mechanism turned into a conceptional embodiment. WhatWallyWants: Would be funny if Vor shows up even more because he is linked to Wally through the Janus key, he's almost more faithful to it than to his Queen(s). Didn't really think much about the slots in Wally's face before you brought it up, I thought it could be related to the loss of eyes from Albrecht or the doppelgangers. On a final note, great if you made it through my "essay" comment: This talking about Duviri also reminded me of the Buddhist belief that: "we are all God playing hide and seek with ourselves. There is nothing outside of God, so They have nobody to play with but themselves". :D
Hearing the woman's voice actress go through duviri is strange. The man put so much emotion and meaning into his lines. She didn't seem to do a bad job, but he did his so well that it's disappointing to listen to anyone else do it
i disagree somewhat. The woman's voice actress is definitely more stoic, and gradually emotes more over time. I think that suites the story in Duviri quite well. But that doesn't mean i think the man's voice actor did a bad job at all. he's great!
I was so confused when I played this cause I played this really early into my Warframe play through. The mission popped up on my screen and I thought I was supposed to to do it to understand the story better or keep it in order. It wasn’t until I watched videos online and played more of the game that I realized I should have played this way later.
Sorry you had that experience. Duviri was billed as a new starting point for players making their accounts for the first time. But i think they leaned too heavily into new narrative intrigue and not enough into directing newer players
@@SocraTetris yea I started with picking one of the new Warframe and did a few missions until I beat the boss that puts that thing on ur character and I think before I unlocked Mars the missions popped up. I was really confused but after I beat the missions and found ur video and others and was able to figure everything out.
A theory that I've been thinking that I didn't hear. The Stalker, the one that hates the tenno but can't bring himself to kill them. Filled with hate for the other children, but comes to aid in the New War and Diviri. I'm just saying 👀 that's Thrax
The quote from man in the cave about rulers saying conflicting things so people believe nothing is a perfect representation of KGB's interference into foreign nations, as consequences of those rather novel strategies can be seen in contemporary politics. Yuri Bezmenov's interview goes more in depth.
Was not expecting such an explanation for what I feel like is mostly a joke line from the philosopher, the "if it's stupid and it works, then it's not stupid."
I say this as person who has patch that says "Freedom: Nothing else Matter" so don't bite me. Freedom taken to an extreme outside of John Locks writings of Natural Rights Theory and even the writings Marcus Tullius Cesiaor show that there does exist a part of humanity that is willing to throw away freedom because it is makes things easier. That's were in the writings of John Lock and previous writers who touched upon Natural Rights Theory contrasting it to Positive Negative Right Theory showing that nth degree freedom puts down those who are willing to give up freedom for ease of simplicity while the inverse puts down those who thrive in unfestered freedom: another way to put it is there will always be some who are willing to enslave themselves because it would make life easier while there will always some who will always the chained yoke even if it means death. Comically I think freedom taken the nth degree with some who does not function in the priceable of freedom(IE Natural Rights) is how Attack on Titan ended with Eren becoming a literal slave to the concept of freedom itself because all he knew is the limitation of give and take that Positive Negative Rights Theory gives.
I think you are approaching it from the opposite direction of Aristotle's "slaev by nature" idea. You are using a philosophy that presupposes either a social-political freedom or an Sartre-esque radical freedom has already been achieved, and then the person freely chooses a value of stability/safety/ or even feeling social superiority at the price of that freedom. Such is still a free choice if one has the ability to choose to compromise the value of freedom. To not have that choice from the start as a matter of social-political license, and then justified that the freedom of that initial choice is only natural to some but non-existent in others, is where Aristotle's slave by nature justifies choosing to take away any opportunity to choose. Even takes away the opportunity to choose to give up freedom as a value. It is a fundentally different dynamic A Priori.
That's the secret, Frog. My friend. Because all of them have been human characters from the start. No matter how strange looking; it was humans all the way down
No, actually human. even the not-human looking things, a lot of them are humans. The challenge of warframe's aesthetic, the beautiful-gigeresque body horror, is questioning whether you can empathize and recognize the humanity of something that looks entirely foreign to ourbhuman experience
Award deserving work as always. Thank you so. I'm interested in where analysis of joy being linked to skill and productivity would go outside of a marxist analysis. I feel like DE has intentionally avoided that philosophy despite how obvious of a route that would be given the mythos of the Corpus and that is the one segment of your analysis that felt to me like missed the mark. I do not mean to imply there is anything wrong with applying that analysis mind you! I just felt like there is much more in there that came from other places. I have my own thoughts but I didn't make it as far through my would-have-been philosophy degree as you did -=p
Imma let you in on an open secret, deesevrin. I only have a minor in Philosophy. I just like it a lot but didnt out my schooling towards it. The issue of the Marxist lens is that its quite specific, and not many see the distinction between a marxist lens and a communist lens. Then there is the issue of a lens that is critical of capitalism or the features of modern capitalism without specifically being also a member of those traditions. Which could come from conservative/royalist types rhat want a return to mercantilist ways of thinking about goods and value. It could be from a socialist perspectives that wants to create more top-down ordered economies. Could come from more hardcore Liberalists that want anarchic economies with no regulations, not even regulation on monopolies or scams. But we currently live in a discoure environment where any general criticism of the way things are will be labeled Marxist, even if its just vaguely leftist or not explicitly conservative. Whereas the reality of a country is always going to be a spectrum of policies. The US has interstate roads and mail operated by the federal government. That's a socialist styled institution that our economy relies heavily on. Japan has state-sponsored zaibatsu where more than 90% of all business is organized under just a few umbrella companies (resident eveil reference here). China has politicians' career advancement tied to increases in domestic product. Nothing is as cut and dry as the philosophies that form the foundations. So what does this mean for analyzing a story about warframe? A story that clearly has a message and is communicating it on topics like economy, but wishes to do so without being explicit or hamfisted. They have an emotional core that dictates the top layer of the story, but the rest is done through subtlety, mystery, poetry, and world building. My only answer for this is that I raise the issues, ideas, and inspirations that I see as I see them. I don't shy away from ideas I find questionable, but the traditions i find interesting will bias my perspectice regardless. So I'm going to laud what I find interesting and criticize that which i disagree with. But as for what I miss or angles I dont see? All i can do is hope that others care about the story the way I do. That they write those perspectives that I miss. Cuz i dont want to be the only person that think about warframe's story this way. I want others to see warframe can be respected like this, write their own essay, and contribute their ideas too. Ya dig?
@SocraTetris No idea, lol. All these youtubers were posting their ideas but that interest died down as soon as Tennocon happened. Would you happen to have a guess at whom he might be or represent?
So, in regard to the photo inside your Dormizone... I've had a Ronald McDonald for years now. When I first walked in that room during the quest, I laughed so hard. Both the parents are wearing all yellow and red, and mom has a red afro. The couple looks exactly like what could produce a clown together. 100% my true parents. It's absolutely generated from features of your own operator. I hung it by the navigation in my ship.
It would be really cool if the islands could move. I remember my first experience likening the courtyard and difficulty to the "other plane" in dragon age 1. The islands rolling and strange with a wandering worm lurking. Similar to subautica in esthetic. Now it's just a route as I look for puzzles. loses a bit of charm. Meanwhile king thrax is a binge emotion drinker constantly blacking out. Seems pretty unhealthy, "- respect". The undercroft is so cool! like a newfound monk God who found limitless power but must hold too their calm stasis. Headcannon says the man in the wall needs love. but can only cause disruption in their curiosity searching for an bond only posesed between others. Makes him a weak villan to be following as the big bad. In my head. What is Kuva's foundry? Do we Find the jade light namely tau that lurks in the void? will we see Volt or loki in 1999? Will we ever get a pokemon trainer warframe and stop shoehorning khora and vauban... or voruna? The unum. Entrati, yanta, and the man in the wall can hop across time. Likely before entrati fell , as she said before the "bleeding earth/duviri." What is a children of the void? Is it because multiple timeliness of the zariman populated duviri causing a population of children "of the void"? They definitely were chosen by fate to hold to their teachings in the void. I'm not looking forward to playing it. but the Sentients definitely build something. newfound will or not, they didnt return without using teraforming capable ships. This is a bit grim but it could be the people of duviri were preserved as never aging stagehands in the play. Ideas being: The smiling children, the masolium with whittled bones and proxies. the adventure girl's comments about being someone else. The nurse's story, especially because the drifter/drax has lived through a long time of great tragedy. Grief where you question yourself over and over, king or no. Part of why leaving made the drifter so self destructive. why he never did and why teshin had to die in the climax.
@@SocraTetris not gonna lie, the soundtrack does give me some tearjerking moments when I realized how D. Thrax and the Drifter are related in the end. And my head just bursted when you called it in that it's their little brother. Damn, what a well done video!!
Cuz it's my house. They can do that in their house. I'm not the government. But I have a responsibility to the rest of my house-guests to kick out the fascies from my bar
And, for clarification, the group I'm saying i would delete is people arguing that slavery is preferable to freedom. Different context than the one you mentioned
From dialogue with the Holdfast on the Zariman, we know that the finger is a copy/duplicate of the original. the Zariman alsobhas a large Reliquary Drive room. Any ship that does void jumps has one, but we havemt encountered the orig8nal. I forget the in-game source, but after Albrecht severed the finger by closing the gate, it began to grow and duplicate. So perhaps all of the fingers are the original one.
![FILMMAKER REACTS: WARFRAME | [ALL PRIME TRAILERS!!]](/img/1.gif)
My greatest disappointment is that it has been this long and no one has yet corrected me for saying Ben-Hur is an isekai, when clearly i meant John Carter. Is no one fact checking me?
My Warframe Lore Playlist:
ruclips.net/p/PLVRI7Hc-pawnl8YxoUd7aiUJBS1Zy1qhn&si=CFTvT1NTK6s3WnNP
I also want to shout out another warframe lore youtuber: @TheDsEIGE. I wrote a full section disagreeing with their The Dream theory about Duviri, but it was cut for time. It was still an inspiration that helped me analyze the quest, regardless.
I JUST discovered them as well and have devoured so much of their insightful musings over the past few days.
I also urgently need to review your OG warframe philosophy vids.
Never watched Beh-Hur yet though I've heard it's about chariot racing in the antiquity and it got me to thinking maybe it's an isekai where a present day man got isekaied as a famous chariot racer? 🤣
i'd also say that putting Sao in the isekai world seems less logical than puttin in overlord, after all Kirigaya is STILL in his real world while accessing a game, and more MORE later, entering his conciousness/dream (rath) thus making him STILL in his original world anyway. Still a good example after all and a great video, take care dear reader, you're deserving love.
so many people miss that the kid in the final memory of "thrax" is you. its your operators appearance used as the child hiding next to the conceptual embodiment that would become thrax. thrax is a vessel for the drifter emotions. its why thrax believes the toy is his. because he believes he is the player. its why the child is darked out in the memories' until that final one where its revealed they are your memories the whole time. the embodiment known as thrax is just filled with the drifters emotions from the accident. a vessel for a child's trauma and thus acts like a child.
I am pretty sure they are pulling from the Drifter's character data and not the Operators. My cutscene as depicted didnt have my operator's hair. As much, I made my argument based on what i saw. While this correction has been confirmed for me elsewhere, I believe there is plenty to argue that Thrax is-was his own person, and not just a conceptual embodiment. As long as you watched and engaged with the ideas in the middle of the video, I'm Not terribly concerned with whether or noty fan theory is correct.
@@SocraTetris Conceptual Embodiments can be people but as it stands Duviri and its people were created by the Drifter.
The Tenno are conceptual embodiments as well, at least according to Archimedean Yonta, another conceptual embodiment.
This man made a 9 hour video to make his wife understand his addiction.
He's playing 4 parallel universes ahead of us.
8th dimensional chess. I dont even know what the 6th dimension is!! 10/10 ign would dimension again
you're right. She was my girlfriend at the time
@@SocraTetris im interested in seeing this video...
@@SocraTetrisIGN would give it. 2/10. Not enough Trans Mongolian amputees. Sad. Try again.
I just took a psychic damage red crit hearing The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe called an isekai.
lol. then my joke has had the intended effect
@@SocraTetristhough I do have one observstion, I think it might have been a bug when it didn't show your operator model. When I did the quest, I saw my bright multi coloured hair on the child baricaded in the classroom.
I was able to figure this part out. It is actually pulling the hair model from the Drifter, i believe. My drifter is bald, but my operator has hair. I'm not 100% sure, but we could attribute the hair to be a cheap way to create a resemblance between Drifter and Thrax, rather than saying directly that the Drifter is that child. A family resemblance. I'll re-point towards that we know when the operator and Drifter timelines split. It is in the classroom with other children when the deal was made with TMITW.
The Maws coming to Duviri as a result of you using tranferrance on one during the War Within is interesting. It makes sense, especially since she mentioned that they started devouring eachother, which also happened during the War Within.
It also makes me worried what other shenanigans are going to happen in duviri in future quests. Cuz yknow... we started that whole transference into necromechs thing. That mightbhave some consequences down the line
Oh and I noticed something interesting that adds to your theories, which is that all the children are wearing Zariman suits.
@SocraTetris Interestingly enough, Alchemy was recently added as a game mode to The Circuit. Duviri changes yet again as a response to changes in the Origin system.
It took me way longer to get the quest than it should have. But Dominus was alone and traumatized, so he used the Tales of Duviri as a coping mechanism. And eventually used being a king in it, using everyone in it as toys as coping mechanisms. Then you as his antagonist sort of was his friend that played with him. You wanted to leave him behind as he was quite a toxic friend, but when Teshin came, you not only had Dominus but also Teshin who you did care about. Dominus hated you for wanting to leave because he would be lonely again and have no one to play with.
You got angry at him for killing Teshin. And when you found out that he was just a child playing with toys not wanting to be lonely, you gave him playground as long as he doesn't mess with you. Like an older sibling putting their younger brother in his place.
Chosing to leave or stay is also choosing between playing with him or leaving him play with his toys on his own.
One more thing to note is that Thrax is you. Or atleast a part of you. You were the one using The Tales of Duviri as a coping mechanism in the aftermath of The Zariman incident, and through conceptual embodiment, the void took your emotions and made them real, creating all the characters from the story, but twisting them through the lens of the horror you had experienced.
At the end of the quest you see the figurine and remember the past. The figurine was --MINE (as dominus cuts you off). And with that realization comes the knowledge that you created Duviri, you were the king all along. And that's what let's you reset the Spiral and be free.
In effect the entire story is about The Drifter overcoming their trauma from The Zariman.
@@malaki7335i remember that specific part at the end of the quest. Wasn't thrax's hand sticking out of a void concretion on the wall like a void angel does? I wonder if using the story as a coping mechanism and spawning duviri within the void allowed them to poke through during the zariman explosion. Or maybe Thrax's hand is just a metaphor for the trauma the zariman incident caused? Maybe both?
1:42:14 personal bookmark to continue later
After reading about the lost islands of Duviri and some of the horrors they hold it would be awesome if they materialised out of the void during certain spirals like Kullervos hold
I really want this to happen. Next Halloween. Something newer than Plaguestar and a story from Grandmother
This is an exemplary video that made me question and reexamine alot of my fundamental assumptions about the dynamics of not just Duviri but Warframe's storyline as a whole. You should be immensely proud of yourself for the extent of content you provide this community and the cerebral capacity by which you discuss it. My favorite part imparticular being the subsection on the commoners of Duviri, I was waiting for you to dig into the boastful kaithe rider the entire time. I totally missed how the children lacking an arm is a total subversion of the long arms of the Orokin and presents an inverse representation of the traits we commonly associated with them, that's a brilliant observation!
I can't even begin to venture a guess as to how long an analysis of this degree would take, weaving in both the external cited sources and the speculation of the plot. I only wish that I got your opinion on some of the supplementary material surrounding this update.
But, because of that I am left with a few questions of my own.
For instance:
1) Most citizens of Duviri are either of the kintsugi pottery reminiscent appearance who were originally onboard the Zariman or deliberately specified as "landing" there from the origin system and retaining thier "human" traits. However, with subsequent updates, there is an exception to this with the warden who resembles Ballas but is "sculpted" like all of Duviri's characters. I wonder if this is conceptual embodiment through Teshin as an outside agent of Duviri, or if when Ballas "died" like Teshin did, Lotus' method of casting him out resulted in Ballas showing up in Duviri as incomplete.
2) not so much a question but with the latest expansion: "Whispers in the Walls" remnants of Albrecht's notes can be found and listened to in your codex. In one, he exposits on his time in Duviri, how he relates it to his Daughter who is Duviri's author and the pride she feels in her. It's vague but he also mentions how there are plans for Duviri as well, and it will be needed in the future.
3) The video extrapolates an outcome for the player character to be the god of two faces or a candidate to become "Janus" having some relationship to the Janus key. But I feel like I disagree with the idea that we're the ONLY character with 2 or more faces.
The most immediate answer IS the tenno. Afterall, we have the drifter and the many faces of the warframes we operate. But I call into question the canon of how multiplayer exists in Duviri and whether or not it's a narrative disconnect to facilitate gameplay. Given the events of the New War marking us as THE tenno who shook Wally's hand, I'm wagering that's the case. Your theory also extrapolates on the possibility of Wally being Janus, possessing our form as well as... the dude in the wall who show up in the New War, also showing up with other abilities via Whispers' grimoire.
However even then, I propose that there is one other candidate who fits the namesake: most definitely Natah. Her entire backstory is dependent upon the context of her being a sentient mimic, her ability to replicated and change faces, and the significance of the faces she wears affecting the at once the story, her choosen role and the choices she deliberates.
4) I REALLY like your theory on the identity of Dominus Thrax. Several interpretations think that he is some subconscious divided aspect of the drifter, but it ignores that if thrax and the drifter are one and the same, that they answer to different pronouns and honorifics (if you have a female character, thrax is still "king" rather than "queen.") But I do see one aspect in Thrax's flashbacks that is incongruent with these findings. If Thrax really is our younger sibling, then in the Envy cutscene, our player model would be the one being presented with the award on stage. Just a thought.
Once again, I just wanted to thank you so much for making this video. I think what DE has accomplished with this game and it's themes of identity are exceptional to such a degree that content made by the fanbase feels alot less like fanart and more like supplementary material in an expanded universe outside of the borders of the software. Many have come and gone for several reasons, but when I see Warframe fans make something, I seldom imagine or hear them as the person playing the game, rather the warframe or in game persona that they choose based on how it's filmed and expressed. Several of these creators present their content in such ways that influence the immersion of the game's world, for instance, about 3 I remember using the persona of an originally created cephalon. Your content, while differing from that in many senses, made me nostalgic for that time period.
thank you for your thoughtful comment, sardonicart! I will definitely keep making these videos, and the Whispers in the Walls video will happen this year. I hope you enjoy it as much as this one :)
This is excellent! I love Duviri and the story around it, as well as the theme of emotional management and how it's implemented. A nice long video going through everything has been really interesting as well as the interpretations.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, nobodie! :)
This is a BLOODY awesome video. Youre not just telling us lore, and explaining it. Youre actually guiding us and telling the story in the form of imaginative prose, whilst providing all sorts of philosophical perspectives and fictional comparisons to enhance your explanation and highlight the strengths and significance of this quest. Thank you for your hard work tenno!
thank you, mentlwgen. I'm glad you are enjoying it so much :)
As someone who played with this BEFORE the New War, My reactions were "Oh..." "Ah..." and "it makes sense now" watching this video. I enjoy playing this game because someone like me who has a very well self-educated background in multiverse and quantum physics, it is full of treasures unlike anything
Fantastic take. Man, I'd never have discovered a lot of this playing the game alone.
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I think the story of the 3 ungrieving children indeed suggest we must be willing to lose to gain, but moreso as a parallel of the ending that soon follows. Where had we given up our old man without regret, we could've ruled Duviri. However the drifter, now allowing themselves to feel, decides to give up Duviri and freedom, to continue the struggle of a life with emotions.
I completely agree. It immediately foreshadows the conclusion of the story, but with Drifter choosing diffetently because they learned to feel again
1:13:11 Surprise Ordis is so funny lmao
Will you also cover Whispers in the Walls once it arrives this week?
I will cover Whispers in the Walls once I am able to. I am predicting it will not be soon after the update. It seems beefy
@@SocraTetris It's okay, no rush :) Better we experience it first before anything else
I'm still in "The Commoners" section of the video, but I wanna ask, why omit Kullervo, his Hold, and the "Ballas"-like character in the analysis? Is it too minor for the overall theme of the video?
not missed, just a separate update. I'm still reading the Kalevala. so the issue is more that it is too big
2:45:47 I find the old sage's line here being a contradiction to one of the cores of the tale of duviri so interesting. Perhaps his placement under one symbol of enlightenment but surrounded by a cave suggests while his isolation has made him wise there are things he is still ignorant to. Even a representation of how orokin adults knew much but could never learn to manage their emotions?
It is curious. I would say the simplest answer is that they had a writer that wasn't involved with the main story on this, or they allowed the voice actor to ad-lib
My charitable interpretation is that the quote actually more so refers to looking back on what made you anxious, rather than ignoring your emotions.
Like "what looked to be a mountain, from behind looks like just a mole hill" kind of idea.
Though it would be, perhaps even more, interesting if this did represent the fact that the sage old man is himself fallible in his wisdom.
I think the mausoleum may have been Lua itself or at least the part of it that held the dreaming Tenno, the islands disappearance could line up nicely with the Warframes pulling the moon out of the void to protect the sleeping operators.
yknow, thematically i really lile that idea
I thought The Lotus was the one to hide the Moon? We just helped her pull it back out; I don't think the Tenno was the one to do alone. It's also been a really long time since I played that mission so there's a really high chance of me being super wrong.
Personally i would think that the Doll Mausoleum was not literally the Tenno Resevoir, but it's exit from Duviri could easily coincide with our joint effort to temove Lua from the void. Events in the void affect Duviri, but it is its own reality/timeline
It’s the video I’ve been waiting for for so long and you didn’t disappoint
Glad to hear it, Carson. I aim to please
@@SocraTetris and you certainly did
First of all, great video! I always enjoy your stuff.
I'm so glad you mentioned the Janus thing. I've been thinking about it for quite a while and never made the conection to Wally's appearance in the New War, so I always atributed the idea to the tenno.
We are Janus, the Two-Faced God of Doorways that stands between 2 worlds: one of blood and steel, our world, and the world that watches and dreams, the Void.
It could be that Wally wants us because of this power, so that he may finally be able to enter our world. But as far as we can see he gave us that power, gave us Janus (hence his missing face in the New War).
So the question remains. What does he want?
That's the question, isn't it, kiddo?
There is still room for Wally to be the two-faced god on their own. Both appearing as whoever is witnessing them, and as the Vetruvian Wall. I think this doesnt quite count, because their are borrowing our face. They don't technically have a second face of their own. I am, however, trying to find a good place in one of these videos to point out that this is a Full Metal Alchemist reference. It is literally Truth sitting in front of the Sephiroth-designed door, while using edward/alphonse's face
@@SocraTetrisIt's been a long time since I watched FMA so i dont remember Truth or his scenes that well, but thats a really cool detail. I may rewatch it just for that 😆
I'll be waiting for the wispers in the walls video. I love your content so much
i hope you also enjoy what i have in the meantime away from Warframe videos :)
@SocraTetris but of course
I love duviri quest what a shame we can't repeat ir 😢
This is the thing i really wish Warframe would stop doing. I would have loved to replay the story a few times.
Not patched?
I’d assume that they’ll add replay for it eventually. They sometimes don’t ship quests with a replay option and then add it later, like with New War
Don't they usually add the replay button after a new main quest drops?
There are several quests I wish I could replay. “The Heart of Deimos” is another one I’d really like.
2:44:01 i think what this line means is about belief what we see with our own eyes if we are not under the effect of anything is there , but when it’s something we cannot see like a theory of a deity its the unknown like magic to kids , but being hard set in a theory blinds you to other possibilities if you love it so much to ignore other possibilities its as if your under a spell
I can’t edit for some reason so i meant to say “ a theory or a deity”
2:44:10 A mind cannot contain a mind. Your lover's mind will always be surprising to you, always more to explore.
The tenno at the end of the quest is our operator (the young Drifter who didnt take the deal). The quest may have been bugged early on or something because I see what you mean in the footage you have. But watching any videos of the quest recently shows it its the oeperator. As further evidence, if you dont have an operator yet, the child shown at the end of the quest inherits the customization from your drifter, and thats what the operator will look like when you play Second Dream.
I think this makes the most sense for the story. The characters are born from the young Drifter's trauma. And throughout the quest we regain our memories, eventually uncovering that we are the King of Duviri (which was hinted at by the way all of the characters act towards us). And with that realization comes the ability to control Duviri and reset the spiral.
But good work on the video! I always enjoy your analysis. I especially enjoy all your theories about the Lost Islands.
Can you provide a link that demonstrates that operator model being used? Perhaps their Operator coincidentally looks like the basic design being used by the cutscene. Because that isnt the only reference /evidence in the quest for that conclusion. For example, canonically refering to this person as "he" when the drifter can be either man or woman and is referred to at "they" most often.
@@SocraTetris I found a playthrough with a hair color that makes it the easier to see. Here is a clip of the scene at the end. ruclips.net/user/clipUgkxIOV2AIOfmkz7x9BxDuml6GLyFsIHAUp1?si=Yd2Ie_iChFoWnpeV
And about the discrepancy with referring to the King only as he, I see it this way: Dominus Thrax is not literally the Operator or another Tenno from The Zariman. He is just a character from a story book, just like the other Duviri characters. But when we read a story, we see ourselves in the characters, we relate to them. So in the chaos of the Zariman Incident, conceptual embodiment created Duviri through us, and it's characters our colored by our experiences. "Thax didn't make this place--- you did." Thrax isn't directly the Operator, he has autonomy, however he has been embued with our own desire to control our emotions and keep us safe from the outside world, no matter how unhealthy that may be. (He lays out this mindset in the confrontation with fake Teshin). Because that was the mindset of our Tenno in the aftermath of the Zariman, and presumably the intended lesson of the Tales of Duviri.
I think this was the intended way to see the ending. As it makes the story directly about facing our own trauma and learning to deal with our emotions instead of blocking them out and becoming apathetic. If I had one complaint about the quest, it's that I wish that ending scene with our operator was a little longer and a little more clear, because I missed the realization the first time through. And only after watching the quest again a couple more times did I notice that it was the Operator.
Having viewed some other footage on youtube, all of which seems to have been posted 7 months ago, I don't believe there was a bug. I think that the tenno model in the cutscene is using the Drifter's code for which hair model to use. My drifter is shaved, hence why i thought this was just a default model.
That said, I do not think this precludes my conclusion. For one, if this was meant to be our Drifter, why not just use the game's Operator model (mine does have that straight hair high-top fade thing) rather than the current Drifter's hair? Since this is what they did to express the Zariman child before the persona split during The New War.
My countrr proposal is that this character model is using the current drifter's hair to make the familial relationship visibly represented. Just the model's skin tone would not be sufficient in thos regard, because rhe scene is grayscaled
@@SocraTetris Interesting. I thought it only showed the Operator with your drifters hair if you didn't have an operator yet. But I can't confirm because my operator and share the same hair anyhow. That would be strange if it didn't use the operator model. I would have to look closer at playthroughs to see if the characters body type changes based on your Drifter. Because wouldn't they always be male if it was meant to be Dominus Thrax?
I think the sibling theory is interesting and makes sense for the most part. I just find it odd that at no point in the game has there been any mention of us having a sibling. I don't necessarily think the memories we see indicate they are our sibling either. If they were, wouldn't the operator be present in them? I also think your theory may rely too heavily on the one line of dialogue from Koral to determine that all the characters came from real people on The Zariman. Those could just be some of the drifters own memories making Koral feel like she was someone else before, because her existence is drawn from The Drifter.
As some final evidence I just want to point out all the dialogue in the quest that I think points towards my theory:
When the Drifter first crosses the bridge, the civilians say.
"The king! The king! There goes are honored king," as you ride past.
Bombastine later calls, "Someone who has everything" and refers to us as "Sire". Which I believe is because he knows we are the "King" of duviri. If I recall, there are also other instances where the characters of Duviri talk to us as if we are indistinguishable from The King, however I don't remember those lines off-hand.
At the end of the quest after the scene revealing the identity of Dominus Thrax, the Drifter has a realization. "This... this is"
Thrax finishes what The Drifter was about to say "--mine". The Drifter is and always was the King.
And with that realization comes the immediate control over Duviri, and allows them to reset the spiral.
But Warframe lore is not always the most clear. I could see the Sibling theory making sense, but I would like to see more evidence that we actually have a sibling first. Either way I think we are coming to very similar conclusions about the message and meaning of the story, which is what is most relevant anyhow. And perhaps we will get definitive answers about Thrax at some point in the future if they continue the Duviri storyline.
I can't believe I never considered that Thraxx wasn't us. I think I manifested false memories of Thraxx appearing to have our customized appearance at some point.
so it was brought to my attention that the final flashback with the void angel, the child in the cutscene uses the drifter's hair style, but only the hairstyle. Definitely not the operator model, which I believe means my theory is still on the table. That is why my cutscene is a dedault bald. cuz my drifter is bald
Really interesting conclusions. I'm very excited [now] to see how WITW/1999 turn out.
You and me both!
the swordsman you play as for 2 minutes is umbra.
oops. spoilers.
Your videos help me to introduce such wonderful lore to my friends and family so very often.
i'm glad you find them helpful, Archi :) Thanks for sharing them
And now this video has been completely WATCHED by me in ONLY THIRTEEN DAYS! :D Loved it.
I think the you are trapped by your ability to symbolize statement is directed at The Drifter. They literally trapped themselves in a fantasy land filled with symbol characters of emotion.
I think it's a call to open your eyes and see the real world. It's another way of saying, "Wake up, Tenno."
That's a very cool interpretation, koltonkulis!
The only guy that can connect real life mythology and Warframe Bravo
And I'm not even close to finished 👍🏾
This is the first time I find you on youtube, and you have quickly become a favourite!
Welcome aboard, Valdyr! Glad to have you :)
I actually played the Paradox before the New War. So I was totally lost during the whole playthrough.
I absolutely think that was the major weakness of this quest. It was billed and delivered as an alternative starting point, but it just isn't. It is a singular mission type, and heavily relies on the context of The New War. Sometimes writers get too close to what they've written. They can lose track of what is common knowledge/obvious and what makes sense because it is familiar. That is why I'm trying to give the full context of everything in this video series
2:44:04, I honestly can't describe this one quite as well, I'm restraining myself from flat out telling you to read Umineko no Naku koro ni, which you really should do cause it's peak fiction, it mixes mystery, fantasy, psychology and philosophy woven to such perfection to create a life altering experience. But basically the term "Without love, it can not be seen" is thrown around the story a lot and in different contexts it can mean many things. I think this timestamped quote shouldn't be taken so literally, but rather it refers to one of the many meanings one can attribute to the term I mentioned before.
I like your interpretation. I am familiar with Umineko, sadly familiar enough to know it isnt for me. respect though
1:13:09 Before thrax's reign, before even the bleeding earth - Ordis then cuts in, followed by the archivist's description of a haunted man. Ah no, I know that the man is Albrecht?
That dude in the cave was the coolest part of duviri
100
Your explanation of happiness helps me with my clinical depression. Thank you.
Glad that it could, Xenowelltai :)
i came up with a really neat thoery that feels like i just have to change a few identifiers and it would still be fairly plausable. i'd have to look for if it's still up and i don't remember where i posted it but basically the Drifter somehow got turned into Kullervo and it makes sense for Thrax Dominus to be our little brother, whom knowing we are his older brother created the world of diviri. And things still line up with only needing to perhaps explain a bit more detail. But part of why (in my theory) the drifter is being treated brutally is because if he leaves he'll just "become" or "release" kullervo to continue the massacre. This is also why Kullervo is not in Envy nor Joy is because they remember. While we're there for the warframe to use the man in the wall's intentions are hard for me to theorize, i wonder if he just wants everyone to leave the void. i'd have to think about how and why he's attacking those different islands.
I dont't think you can sell me on this integration of Kullervo. i will have a different video on that. But currently i think the simplest explanation is the Ballas turned into The Warden when falling into Duviri. Conceptual Embodiement brought Kullervo back into existence. It appears in the Sad and Fear cycles because their source material (the Kullervo cantos in the Kalevala) is an epic tragedy poem. I think simpler explanations are more likely here. At no point does the drifter become kullervo
Plus, my drifter is a "she" and it is clearly stated that The Drifter created Duviri and gave it to thrax. not the other way.
New SocraTetris video, hell yeah.
2:49:23 i hard agree with the sentiment in this line. To me it's chaos vs order. Chaos will always bring uniqueness. Being unpredictably unkind also leads to being unpredictably kind. It's the spice of life basically. But being predictably unkind leads to routine. Routine then leads to apathy. Apathy then leads to the spiral the quest is all about. That's how i see it at least
I seriously just wanted to take the time to say thank you for your calm voice during this video. I just had the most intense feeling of rage for the entirety of my morning because some idiot on the internet kept brushing aside what i was trying to explain with "cite your sources" over and over while not engaging with anything i was saying and other people mocked me for it. Clicking onto this video after blasting slipknot to cope with my anger is a major breath of fresh air i didnt know i needed. Kinda like stepping out of a void storm and back into the origin system lol
Anyways apologies for my rambling. I just really wanted to express how much your tone grounded me back in reality
I'm glad that I could help you in this way, Cresto. I've received a few comments that perhaps I went too far in the calming voice direction with this video. But it was the right call if it helped you feel better today.
Only potential problem with Thrax being our brother is we literally see the Drifter CREATING Thrax in the quest, it’s brief but it’s in the moment we see the duviri book iirc.
Other than that amazing video and analysis of Duviri, I’d love for you to disect the NPCs more! This has def solidified Duviri as my favorite open world, right next to Deimos (especially with the witw update (which I hope you talk about eventually too!))
I've heard this. in that section i had interpreted that hand as a void angel's hand. People have told me it has distinct markers from Thrax. i'm not certain we can say that was the drifter making thrax frim whole cloth. Either way, I won't be hinging ant future analysis on that theory. I think that the rest lf the video's exploration of the themes is the real meat of it. (the fan theory was just a hook for the script's narrative arc 🤫)
I didn't know I needed literary analysis of warframe quests in my life but here we are three hours later
Glad you liked it, Birdoverbird! I have a whole playlist of all the questa leading up to Duviri Paradox as well!
The handshake was the deal that our consciousness would find another body and thanks to Balyss, we found the Drifter. Every other version of ourselves perished exept 1 thanks to Balyss connecting us to another with the sword, and wally giving drifter the Lotus' hand. A deal once shook after all
Personally, i think the "deal" only represents the one between the zarimen children and Wally. I don't think Ballas has any involvement in it. My evidence would be that Orokin society never encountered or believed in The Man in The Wall.
Even with the finger relics existing as evidence, Albrecht's epitaph explains how no one ever encountered "the other" again.
Just cu the void is involced doesnt mean wally dictates what happens. Wally is in the void. They are not the void itself. (Imo, they are not a god in the way the most popular fan theories portray them.)
Excellent video, as always!
It's an interesting take for sure, I haven't thought of a younger sibling being involved in any way. I viewed Dominus as a self insert into the story if that makes sense, especially with the last emotional flashback with the void angel, where the child takes on the appearance of our Operator/Drifter. In my mind, he was a mirror of ourselves, attempting to keep us safe. It made sense, since he doesn't age, which could imply he follows the time rules of Duviri, unlike other human characters present, like Teshin for example. I think the idea of a younger sibling just hadn't crossed my mind due to them never being mentioned in the 'main' timeline, but that is easily explained by them being exclusive to the Drifter timeline.
The factor that I point to as to why it wouldn't be in the Operator's story could be attributed to how much of the Operator's story is based in having forgotten what happened to them before the Second Dream (the time spent living as Warframes). It was a convenient "amnesia" storytelling device originally. It still functions as that now, because the operator only remembers the Zarimen, but not much of what happened before the Zarimen. Because Warframe's storytelling doesn't like to spell things out directly, there is a lot of room for interpretation and re-interpretation as new story comes out.
That was a pretty decent video, SocraTetris. I just wanted to remind you that everyone has their own ways of processing their emotions, and as long as they're finding healthy ways to cope and manage their feelings, that's what matters the most
I completely agree. The sections that go through the various emotions is meant to highlight how they are presented from a limited/limiting perspective in fiction and in society as metaphorical constructs. Nothing In my video should be a moral critique on emotional expression by people living in that ambiguity.
That's good to know. I'm also excited for the Whispers in the Walls update coming tomorrow, which also means 11 days until Christmas Eve as well
I'm actually very excited for xmas this year. First Xmas as a married man with a house and a cat. Gonna invite my parents/inlaws and have a roasted duck from the chinese food restaurant we frequent.
I think thrax was made by drifter, and when time went by thrax took his memories, traumas and emotions remembering that he created something, he believes he created YOU
ok , this explains a lot and glad that I understand the references as well, 9 months later awesome video, just played through the quest
Glad it helped!
Now I think I see why I like Bombastine, it's not only the voice actor, damn... thanks
I do feel for the character too. Wanted to make sure that section of the video took him seriously. I doubt what he did to Luscinia is forgivable (if we ever find out what that was.)
@@SocraTetris I never heard of anything that he did to Luscinia 😨
He himself says "the thing i did were meant to break her. not make her his favorite." No one accuses him. He outs himself to get credit for something terrible
@SocraTetris my immediate thought was overly harsh vocal training, attempting to ruin her mentally or physically, but instead it strengthened her talents and made her the best.
wait what if real teshin did die but before he died the void copied him and this is the "other" like what happened with entrati.
It is not 100% confirmed that "The Other" replaced entrati. The Albrecht in the fragments seems to be working against the influence of TMITW, which we can see by him giving void technology which is said to keep tmitw at bay, such as the lighthouse's seriglass.
I do not believe Teshin was fully dead when he fell into the void. If he were dead, and had no consciousness, then no conceptual embodiement could occur. Since he was alive, but unconscious, I believe that is in fact the same Teshin
99.99% of the community using Raven operator voice
Cuz its good.
The hypothesis at the end and the ruminations on Dominus Thrax, is [complex emotions of happiness and excitement].
My comment preview cut off at the word "is," and I got SO worried about what kind of comment this was going to be! haha. Glad you enjoyed it.
Im contemplating doing a review/ breakdown of this video from a Taoist & Hindu perspective. You're spot on, on so many levels, but I think one could go so so much deeper when it comes to the spiral as a representation of samsara, the chain of births and deaths and emotions as the signposts of our attachments or aversions that bind us to samsara. I must admit, im only 2.5 hrs in, so maybe you'll cover that.
That is a great idea, Quantum_Idealism! and i hope you do. So that is where i was going to start originally, but as I got into the research and writing, I just didnt find the connecting points. Desire, as the emotion that creates attachment and thus remaining in samsara, doesnt have explicit reference. And the drifter actively desiring to leave, as well as the spirals potentially not being how Duviri always was, broke down my good faith attempt to talk about it. I'm also currently waiting for the story to do something else with the yin-yang choices so that I can continue the discussion of taoist themes from my original, 9-hour video.
If you do find that angle to explore the Samsara concept in Duviri, I would love to see it! Please comment again when you've made it :)
@@SocraTetrisdefinitely, if I can find the time. I also totally understand why you'd take a different approach. The story has some deviations from a story about a path to enlightenment, but there are a lot of useful parallels. As far as desire goes, id point out that there's no where to stand and exploring this may be a way around this deviation. Desire is what binds you to samsara, but aversion to desire also binds you. To attain enlightenment, you must have the desire to attain it, but have also let go of that desire for attainment. Once again a paradox within a paradox. Perhaps the reseting of the spiral at the end of the quest and the option to stay in duviri, was the letting go of the desire to leave samsara, but my thoughts are a little muddled on this. What I'm most interested to explore though is how emotions useful for finding where your clinging and how to use them practically to help guide your spiritual path.
i can get that. it places the drifter somewhat in the position of the Boddhisattvas
2:31:18 another thought is he was one of the teachers of the children they were taught in a cave
doesnt The fragment describes there being classrooms?
@@SocraTetris what i meant was they didn’t say they cast off the teachers or the parents just the island , so maybe the teacher settled in a cave because thats what was familiar
Being newbie I thought this quest is just some Elden Ring wanna be spin-off to give variety and keep new players intrested in the game, but after finishing all avalible quests and seeing duviri again in your video a lot of stuff made sense. As new player I think it shouldn't be avalible from the beginning, but at least after war within, because you just getting into sci-fi game playing as space ninja and here comes side quest from mmorpg which you don't know has a connection to overall story. Also thanks for expanding my knowledge of philosophy : p
You're welcome, pitbullek. Glad you found it helpful :)
"You are trapped by your ability to symbolize."
This comes pretty intuitively to me as an artist and observer. One of the first things I was taught when I, a self-taught artist, put away enough pride to let myself be taught in a mandatory art class for an elective requirement (I loved being taught and humbled so much that I actually went to uni for art after that degree!), was to distance myself from the brain's Symbolic Network-I learned about what that even is from her. A great example is why for even great artists, the hands are always so hard, is because we're so familiar with them. They're so entrenched in our symbolic network we can't be objective in drawing them; simply put-your ability to create symbols, to create meaningful stand-ins, is interfering from your ability to see how things are. Symbols are not facts, they're summaries. The advice he's giving is to step back, let yourself be immersed, and derive meaning from what you observe without ascribing your own to it first.
That's interesting, because you are coming at it from a position of semiotics. I think I can explain thag sentence in game better now thanks to you. Semiotics is the study of symbols. A "signifier" is thr object observed. A "signified" is the thought created in the mind ofbthr observer. and a "sign" is the two happening as an event. However, this is where the idea "Observation is value-laden" comws in.
Using the epistemology of Bertrand Russell, a "Sensate" is the physical world interacting with your body's ability tobhave sensation. For example, light hitting you optic nerve. A "Percept" is your mind taking that signal and creating an experience/short term memory from information. It is a mental construct that requires the context of our full history of sensation and perception to be formed. Like you said, we see a hand, and we understand it in the context of every hand we have ever seen, the abstract concept of a hand. The Percept relies on our Signified experience. This does, however, create a challenge to what you said at the end.
"derive meaning from what you observe without ascribing your own first." From what we've described above of how the process works, is this even possible? We don't have conscious access to our sensations, only our perceptions. Even immediate experiences of pain are slightly delayed perceptions, not the sensation of the nerves. Even then, a sensation is a phenomenon of some mediary between the object and our sensation. In this case it is the light from the hand to our eye. The sensation is not the object, not the signifier. Our nerves are also a mediary. So, when we try to immerse ourselves for the creation of art, but we are not experiencing the object, but rather our value-laden perception, necessarily, what then are we doing?
We would be calling on other meanings, other Signifieds, to have different percepts of the hand. Specifically calling on those other percepts to achieve the goal of drawing the hand accurately. Calling various signifieds related to shapes, texture, light, and color associated with our medium of art. We are coming to understand different aspects of the object, and thus it is objective knowledge, but no moreso than our previous observation that didnt allow us to draw the hand. Because this new set of percepts still relies on our subjectively constructed meanings. It is only a different set of subjectivity related specifically to representation of the object in art.
Thus, the statement from the man in the cave holds true regardless. We are limited by our ability to symbolize.
I may be over thinking it but since warframe like mixing physics and mysticism, I just think all those within duviri were you at some point but since you are in repeat, those spots can't be empty so something has to exist there then you forget that was you.
i've heard a few fan theories like that. I personally dont ascribe to it, because I think enough in the story demonstrates that the spirals are not an inherent part of Duviri. A spiral can happen as a result of the acting ruler (drifter or thrax) causing it or having an emotional episode. Acrithis doesnt describe spirals happening in the codex entries of other islands. I personally would not like the metaphorical implications if Duviri had to be in the throws of emotional trauma at all moments, past and future
@@SocraTetris yeah the spirals aren't inherent to duviri (duviri is timeless so spirals wpuld have to happen) but since you, as a person, stuck in infinity is controlling reality. I would imagine your emotions would start to dictate that reality and why the "king" was a toy in reality and everyone seem focused on your actions.
Taking the time to comment after subscribing because I like the effort you put into this.
Thank you, Trace! And Welcome!
@@SocraTetris Thanks Tetris ;)
One of the first things I noticed btw was the moment the Drifter gets empowered by the Lotus' hand, the first thing they do is laugh... :)
I found a poem from someone called Hafez that mentions "Laughter is the glorious sound of my own soul waking up" This poem inspired a company to call itself
"Laughing Lotus".
Probably just a coincidence but my curiosity was piqued because it is the start of their emotional healing.
1:35:30 : in vino veritas :D
2:27:16 : I believe, rather than proving (some) the denizens of Duviri are made from Zariman crew, that this might be more about her having memories as Koral throughout the spirals but being an unchanging/unaging being she wonders about how she came to be.
For the "Outlaw" it questions if they were always a part of Duviri.
2:33:40 : A nurse losing her mind over death only borrows her despair from those who died or are dying, it is empathy, not really" "their own" pain, her purpose/duty/mental stability can be strengthened by it.
For the Drifter this could relate to them being overwhelmed by the deaths of the other Zariman crew members.
2:35:25 : It was at this part that his speaking pattern reminded me of Musashi's: "You must study this deeply.", "You should investigate this thoroughly.", ...
I just get a feeling of deja vu from this quote that I can't explain.
Perhaps I'm mixing up teachings about the "monkeys of the mind" and quotes about mastery by people like Bruce Lee as you said... or perhaps even Jung.
For the Drifter this could relate to the duality with the Operator as well.
2:44:00 : This sounds like a description of falling in love with things like "thoughts". Just describing it as magic because it isn't tangible but it is there. This, like most things, can be positive or negative, like having and idealized version of a person you love in your mind.
For the Drifter they must've loved the story of Duviri a lot to have made a whole conceptual embodiment of it in the Void.
2:48:38 : This one is basically just commenting on how the Drifter created Thrax, the courtiers and Duviri through conceptional embodiment, Thrax is basically our childhood trauma (like Skittergirl) made manifest to save ourselves but we were also trapped in/by our trauma.
This is also similar to how Rell had emotion-symbolization training, I feel like the Drifter is the version of us that followed something similar to Rell's path instead of making a deal.
2:49:10 : I'd say this comes closer to: “It's not the destination, it's the journey” rather than "ignorance is bliss".
Life in general is a struggle (unkind) to survive: You can know or predict things but some unpredictability makes it "life", if you didn't have that you'd be omniscient and know everything, which is god-like/not really living a "life".
Also for the Drifter, it could relate to them repeating the spirals, apathy through predictability.
2:49:57 : a friend of mine says this a lot xD
2:51:33 : Reminded me of this quote: "He who has a why to live can bear almost any how" from Nietzsche, the Drifter didn't have a "why" to leave Duviri before now.
Also your description about trying to stop suffering reminds me of quotes like: "We suffer because we desire." as well BUT you can't give up desiring because that would be a desire as well so you can't give up suffering in life.
2:54:15 : This is a mention of Christianity in the Warframe universe??? Amazing that it is with a phrase about dividing the masses through misinformation. xD
Also seems to touch upon the Drifter's past apathy which was semi-enabled through Thrax's spirals.
Paradox solved: Thrax being our sibling would have weird implications, us leaving them behind on the throne instead of trying to heal them.
I believe still believe they're closer to our version of Skittergirl, a childhood trauma/coping mechanism turned into a conceptional embodiment.
WhatWallyWants: Would be funny if Vor shows up even more because he is linked to Wally through the Janus key, he's almost more faithful to it than to his Queen(s).
Didn't really think much about the slots in Wally's face before you brought it up, I thought it could be related to the loss of eyes from Albrecht or the doppelgangers.
On a final note, great if you made it through my "essay" comment: This talking about Duviri also reminded me of the Buddhist belief that: "we are all God playing hide and seek with ourselves. There is nothing outside of God, so They have nobody to play with but themselves". :D
Hearing the woman's voice actress go through duviri is strange. The man put so much emotion and meaning into his lines. She didn't seem to do a bad job, but he did his so well that it's disappointing to listen to anyone else do it
i disagree somewhat. The woman's voice actress is definitely more stoic, and gradually emotes more over time. I think that suites the story in Duviri quite well. But that doesn't mean i think the man's voice actor did a bad job at all. he's great!
The VAs on this quest are so good
100
man I felt I have just taken a psychology/philosophy lesson
That's the goal, Tsukai 👍🏾🙏🏾
Their was cut content in duviri with the guiding hand which is lotus hand blaster i think it would of been better left for lore reasons
Likely. Wonder why it was cut though
3 and a half hour duviri paradox video *dont mind if i sleep*
lol, nah. You can sleep. Just come back later
I was so confused when I played this cause I played this really early into my Warframe play through. The mission popped up on my screen and I thought I was supposed to to do it to understand the story better or keep it in order. It wasn’t until I watched videos online and played more of the game that I realized I should have played this way later.
Sorry you had that experience. Duviri was billed as a new starting point for players making their accounts for the first time. But i think they leaned too heavily into new narrative intrigue and not enough into directing newer players
@@SocraTetris yea I started with picking one of the new Warframe and did a few missions until I beat the boss that puts that thing on ur character and I think before I unlocked Mars the missions popped up. I was really confused but after I beat the missions and found ur video and others and was able to figure everything out.
well i'm glad the community could help you out here :)
Mathila: Depressed? Skill issue. 💁♀️
as soon as i saw the drifter dragged by the dax soldiers I said out loud "IS THAT IKORA REY??"
lol, but no. I don't play Destiny
Begin again? NO DONT TAKE ME BACK TO THE MADRE I CANT GO BACK!
The Can Opener of La Puta Madre strikes again.
I especially love your segment about Mathila, perhaps because she reminds me of quite a few people I know :'D
Toxic Positivity is the worst, lol
The other stranger came far earlier in thrax’s reign…. OPERATOR, ARE YOU ENJOYING THE VIEW?
A theory that I've been thinking that I didn't hear. The Stalker, the one that hates the tenno but can't bring himself to kill them. Filled with hate for the other children, but comes to aid in the New War and Diviri. I'm just saying 👀 that's Thrax
maybe. i'd be happy with that twist somehow
hearing ‘Isekai like Sword Art Online’ in the same sentence as Narnia and after Alice in Wonderland was not what I expected today
You are welcome, 105thBattalion. The world of isekai just got a whole lot larger for ya
Saying that this video is enlightening is an understatement 😍
Thank you, Cie :)
The quote from man in the cave about rulers saying conflicting things so people believe nothing is a perfect representation of KGB's interference into foreign nations, as consequences of those rather novel strategies can be seen in contemporary politics. Yuri Bezmenov's interview goes more in depth.
37:00 "hello son, you better study so you can find a job that you are happy working!"
"Otherwise you will be miserable forever. No pressure!"
@@SocraTetris hey son, you are free to choose your misery, we are off to spend all our earnings in a holiday
Was not expecting such an explanation for what I feel like is mostly a joke line from the philosopher, the "if it's stupid and it works, then it's not stupid."
Being silly and being profound are not mutually exclusive 👍🏾
Duviri documentary movie is crazy
yknow, I didnt think of thos as a documentary, byt it did kind of turn out that way! hah
Love the ikora drifter, looks just like her
wasn't intentional, as i havent played Destint. but thank you!
Thanks for the video glhf
you are very welcome, resentfusion! :)
3:16:02 nah bro Wally is a menace for calling us that
hm, a menace you say
Man i adore your videos
Thank you Barnabas! I adore having you here
I say this as person who has patch that says "Freedom: Nothing else Matter" so don't bite me.
Freedom taken to an extreme outside of John Locks writings of Natural Rights Theory and even the writings Marcus Tullius Cesiaor show that there does exist a part of humanity that is willing to throw away freedom because it is makes things easier. That's were in the writings of John Lock and previous writers who touched upon Natural Rights Theory contrasting it to Positive Negative Right Theory showing that nth degree freedom puts down those who are willing to give up freedom for ease of simplicity while the inverse puts down those who thrive in unfestered freedom: another way to put it is there will always be some who are willing to enslave themselves because it would make life easier while there will always some who will always the chained yoke even if it means death.
Comically I think freedom taken the nth degree with some who does not function in the priceable of freedom(IE Natural Rights) is how Attack on Titan ended with Eren becoming a literal slave to the concept of freedom itself because all he knew is the limitation of give and take that Positive Negative Rights Theory gives.
I think you are approaching it from the opposite direction of Aristotle's "slaev by nature" idea. You are using a philosophy that presupposes either a social-political freedom or an Sartre-esque radical freedom has already been achieved, and then the person freely chooses a value of stability/safety/ or even feeling social superiority at the price of that freedom. Such is still a free choice if one has the ability to choose to compromise the value of freedom. To not have that choice from the start as a matter of social-political license, and then justified that the freedom of that initial choice is only natural to some but non-existent in others, is where Aristotle's slave by nature justifies choosing to take away any opportunity to choose. Even takes away the opportunity to choose to give up freedom as a value. It is a fundentally different dynamic A Priori.
nobody:
absolutely nobody:
Ordis: OPERATOR, ARE YOU ENJOYING THE VIEW!!!!????
I couldn't believe he chimed in right then! i had to leave it in
This will show you how long its been since i played this game. I didn't know there were human playable characters. Lol
That's the secret, Frog. My friend. Because all of them have been human characters from the start. No matter how strange looking; it was humans all the way down
@@SocraTetris human looking I mean. Haha
No, actually human. even the not-human looking things, a lot of them are humans. The challenge of warframe's aesthetic, the beautiful-gigeresque body horror, is questioning whether you can empathize and recognize the humanity of something that looks entirely foreign to ourbhuman experience
The 22,301 viewers that didn't hit like for this video are still stuck in Duviri.
yo, for real
Award deserving work as always. Thank you so.
I'm interested in where analysis of joy being linked to skill and productivity would go outside of a marxist analysis. I feel like DE has intentionally avoided that philosophy despite how obvious of a route that would be given the mythos of the Corpus and that is the one segment of your analysis that felt to me like missed the mark.
I do not mean to imply there is anything wrong with applying that analysis mind you! I just felt like there is much more in there that came from other places.
I have my own thoughts but I didn't make it as far through my would-have-been philosophy degree as you did -=p
Imma let you in on an open secret, deesevrin. I only have a minor in Philosophy. I just like it a lot but didnt out my schooling towards it. The issue of the Marxist lens is that its quite specific, and not many see the distinction between a marxist lens and a communist lens. Then there is the issue of a lens that is critical of capitalism or the features of modern capitalism without specifically being also a member of those traditions. Which could come from conservative/royalist types rhat want a return to mercantilist ways of thinking about goods and value. It could be from a socialist perspectives that wants to create more top-down ordered economies. Could come from more hardcore Liberalists that want anarchic economies with no regulations, not even regulation on monopolies or scams. But we currently live in a discoure environment where any general criticism of the way things are will be labeled Marxist, even if its just vaguely leftist or not explicitly conservative. Whereas the reality of a country is always going to be a spectrum of policies. The US has interstate roads and mail operated by the federal government. That's a socialist styled institution that our economy relies heavily on. Japan has state-sponsored zaibatsu where more than 90% of all business is organized under just a few umbrella companies (resident eveil reference here). China has politicians' career advancement tied to increases in domestic product. Nothing is as cut and dry as the philosophies that form the foundations.
So what does this mean for analyzing a story about warframe? A story that clearly has a message and is communicating it on topics like economy, but wishes to do so without being explicit or hamfisted. They have an emotional core that dictates the top layer of the story, but the rest is done through subtlety, mystery, poetry, and world building. My only answer for this is that I raise the issues, ideas, and inspirations that I see as I see them. I don't shy away from ideas I find questionable, but the traditions i find interesting will bias my perspectice regardless. So I'm going to laud what I find interesting and criticize that which i disagree with. But as for what I miss or angles I dont see? All i can do is hope that others care about the story the way I do. That they write those perspectives that I miss. Cuz i dont want to be the only person that think about warframe's story this way. I want others to see warframe can be respected like this, write their own essay, and contribute their ideas too. Ya dig?
Sry for the essay in my own comments 😅
Why would the Drifter regain their emotions from someone else's memories?
Empathy
Hey, didnt you have a video about the sage in the cave from duviri?
It is within this video, but i made shorts out of this one to help give it a bit of an algorithm boost.
@@SocraTetris Oh thanks, i was searching it everywhere
Did we forget who Dominus was suppose to be?
Who was he supposed to be?
@SocraTetris No idea, lol.
All these youtubers were posting their ideas but that interest died down as soon as Tennocon happened.
Would you happen to have a guess at whom he might be or represent?
I do. I even made a video about it.
"Operator, are you enjoying the view?"
I know right? "Ordis! I'm doing a thing! Shut off!"
So, in regard to the photo inside your Dormizone...
I've had a Ronald McDonald for years now. When I first walked in that room during the quest, I laughed so hard. Both the parents are wearing all yellow and red, and mom has a red afro. The couple looks exactly like what could produce a clown together. 100% my true parents. It's absolutely generated from features of your own operator.
I hung it by the navigation in my ship.
That is amazing! I knew rhe Ronald McDonald tenno designs was going to impact someone's game at some point, lol
Anger is a gift.
Anger is a Grift.
im salty we dont get to pop the void dragons mid air like in the trailer
one can only hope for the future. would be badass
It would be really cool if the islands could move. I remember my first experience likening the courtyard and difficulty to the "other plane" in dragon age 1. The islands rolling and strange with a wandering worm lurking. Similar to subautica in esthetic. Now it's just a route as I look for puzzles. loses a bit of charm.
Meanwhile king thrax is a binge emotion drinker constantly blacking out. Seems pretty unhealthy, "- respect".
The undercroft is so cool! like a newfound monk God who found limitless power but must hold too their calm stasis.
Headcannon says the man in the wall needs love. but can only cause disruption in their curiosity searching for an bond only posesed between others. Makes him a weak villan to be following as the big bad. In my head.
What is Kuva's foundry? Do we Find the jade light namely tau that lurks in the void? will we see Volt or loki in 1999? Will we ever get a pokemon trainer warframe and stop shoehorning khora and vauban... or voruna? The unum. Entrati, yanta, and the man in the wall can hop across time. Likely before entrati fell , as she said before the "bleeding earth/duviri."
What is a children of the void? Is it because multiple timeliness of the zariman populated duviri causing a population of children "of the void"? They definitely were chosen by fate to hold to their teachings in the void.
I'm not looking forward to playing it. but the Sentients definitely build something. newfound will or not, they didnt return without using teraforming capable ships.
This is a bit grim but it could be the people of duviri were preserved as never aging stagehands in the play. Ideas being: The smiling children, the masolium with whittled bones and proxies. the adventure girl's comments about being someone else. The nurse's story, especially because the drifter/drax has lived through a long time of great tragedy. Grief where you question yourself over and over, king or no. Part of why leaving made the drifter so self destructive. why he never did and why teshin had to die in the climax.
just a mind blow. thank you
glad you liked it, Mari :)
Is it just me or the Duviri soundtrack has some resemblance to Blood and Wine? Especially the vocals.
it aint just you 👍🏾
@@SocraTetris not gonna lie, the soundtrack does give me some tearjerking moments when I realized how D. Thrax and the Drifter are related in the end. And my head just bursted when you called it in that it's their little brother. Damn, what a well done video!!
I agree in that freedom is preferable to forced happiness, so why restrict anyone the freedom of making the opposing argument even if it is foolish?
Cuz it's my house. They can do that in their house. I'm not the government. But I have a responsibility to the rest of my house-guests to kick out the fascies from my bar
@@SocraTetris Alright, suppose it’s fair when you put it that way.
And, for clarification, the group I'm saying i would delete is people arguing that slavery is preferable to freedom. Different context than the one you mentioned
1:15:34 we do know that albrecht directly visited duviri and that he is connected to it. ruclips.net/video/nmfz78IZSN4/видео.htmlsi=1FdcaaHU2z6PIAO2
Glad you are enjoying it, nemo! :D
how did u make the thumbnail? i wanna make it my background
very carefully using a lot fo image editing techniques. I dont think i've posted it anywhere, so for now its a SocraTetris Exclusive
Begin Again!
The real meta-move is to leave my video on on loop. Now that's a spiral!
Man Warframe is something else
aint nothing else like it
Is your drifter V from cyberpunk
nope, just has a shaved head.
The man in walls wants a finger well in the railjack in the back there a finger in that tank
Also the ships computer has no idea what it is as he says when you interact with it
From dialogue with the Holdfast on the Zariman, we know that the finger is a copy/duplicate of the original. the Zariman alsobhas a large Reliquary Drive room. Any ship that does void jumps has one, but we havemt encountered the orig8nal. I forget the in-game source, but after Albrecht severed the finger by closing the gate, it began to grow and duplicate. So perhaps all of the fingers are the original one.