Since it comes up in discussion so often, I'm somewhat surprised you didn't clarify for your students whether or not an Embraced ghoul maintains the Bond, and whether or not they keep the Disciplines they've managed to acquire during their service. I have heard vehement assertions in both the affirmative as well as the negative from others, though never having Embraced one of mine, I have no first-hand knowledge in this regard. I was one before my own Embrace, but not one who'd lived long enough in that condition to acquire much power of my own, and was Embraced into the Clan that had created me (Ventrue did so love to meddle with the Holy Orders back then, after all).
That is a good point actually thank you for bringing it up; a ghoul who was bound and embraced will still be bound after. And technically speaking all childe are always partly bound to their sire permanently how much this effects them seems to be case by case however. I find it’s only ever on par to the first stage of a bond unless they make it full one. As for the keeping of disciplines it is most likely a age combined with self-want as well, if the ghoul wants to keep it and has been one for long enough I imagine it will (if there was a ghoul player who was later embraced I would let them keep them after they became a vampire)
@@theashspawn one that has come up in discussion specifically, is will the Embrace BREAK the Bond. As in, if another Cainite- err, Kindred, sorry, old habits- Embraces another's ghoul, will that newly Embraced individual still be bound to their old Thrall? I always assumed not, but it does bring up some very sticky possibilities... And when you talk about Revenant families, what if one of them is Embraced by an unrelated Clan? For example, what if a Tremere were to Embrace one of the Przemysl line? Given that they are themselves almost wholly devoted to Clan Tzimisce, what complications could that entail?
@@treize6832 I'll answer the revenant question in that video. But for the first one I would say that’s probably a table to table thing. It depends if you can be blood bound to two separate people and I’m going to be honest I don’t actually know if you can. But since group bonds and mutual bonds are a thing I imagine that it would be possible.
@@theashspawn If I read the 2E manual correctly, the Embrace itself leaves the Childe with a Tier 1 or 2 blood bond. It then behaves as normal; most Sires maintain and strengthen these bonds, at least as long as they are held liable for the childe's behavior. If it's left alone, though, it would degrade as normal.
@@theashspawn From what I’ve read, you can have a blood bond with multiple Kindred, but the primary bond-created when you drink blood three times-can only exist with one.
You're finally letting me get a ghoul you're the best Ward ever. I'm going to make sure to feed him regularly and make sure he's loyal and kind. Now the real question is should I get a boy or girl.
A mage can indeed be ghouled and will be able to keep all of their magic and get the benefits of being a ghoul. Although I have played at one table where being a ghoul weakened their magic before (it was more of a roleplay thing than mechanically). A lot of ghoul mages however are typically the unaware ones since mages are quite smart and are much harder to sway.
@@theashspawn I am now imagining a prince who's relatively low generation, but is secure in his position because he's got an independent mage ghoul, who's partially doing this because ghoulification is the easiest form of immortality he has access to.
In V20, ghouling a mage is ill-advised, as the vampire's vitae will slowly erode their avatar over time before it is lost completely, leaving the mage useless, as well as the mage can become extremely dangerous to the vampire as they gain a powerful addiction to their blood specifically and will more than likely turn the power dynamic and drink the vampire dry instead. Generally, mages and vampires agree to not mess with each other and keep the peace, though mages working with vampires isn't unheard of; Al-Ashrad worked with the Banu as a demon-hunting mage for a long time before joining the clan.
@@shroomz4thesoul644 I didn't know about the mage becoming addicted to the blood so thank you for that (and I would like a source if you have it) And im also not sure how long it really takes for their magic to completely go (or their avatar to leave them) I would guess its probably a case by case thing depending on if the mage has the will to try and escape still or if they accept becoming a ghoul.
I just saw your revenant video now I need to see this so we can find a weakness to them. You said that it doesn't matter how many we take out, they'll always be in another revenant they'll always keep coming no...every monster has it's weakness, there has to be a way to remove them permanently, they're are threat to the entire kindred community.
Tell me, oh great elder. Many will say that a clan will have specific traits they desire in a childe. This of course is a lie, as a kindred will use what tools they have as they require them. Do the Tremere ghoul their aspiring pupils before they turn them so as to teach them their ways?
I think that would entirely depend on the practices of the local Chantry or house the Tremere find themselves in. However with the Tremere being one of the most organised and well-structured clans I find it very likely that they would.
If I recall the Honored Elder's lecture on Clan Hecate, and what I've picked up in the Garden myself, this practice was/is practically a trademark of the Giovanni. Amongst other things. 😕
The rules and the logic of the setting push in some dark directions, that are suitable for a horror game. Seldom explored. One of the most evident ones to me is that basement somewhere. With half a dozen vampires, from different clans. All only torsos, legs and arms stumps burned and locked in iron to prevent them from growing. Immobilized in rustic structures of metal, with stakes in their hearts, fixed by metal just for safety. Upside down. Each one with a supplement of human blood connected to them from above, dropping constantly in a controlled fashion. All of them with a faucet fixed in the forehead. From where the owner of this house extracts the vampire blood he saps slowly every night. Or stocks in bottles for a cold day. Possibly, some now or them, one of those bottles of mixed essence of supernatural vitality is given to a friend or another. Probably after some alchemic processes to disguise the controversial animal nature of the drink. Technically, that individual is just a ghoul. But, depending on the circumstances, this ghoul could also be an scary monster. Matter of nightmares for the average Camarilla vampire. Nothing that would disturb a proper Tzimisce embraced more than a few decades ago. I suppose. Or most Sabbat fellows tested by fire some decent number of times.
Awesome video as always! However, it's a pity that our noble narrator, the Ventrue, didn’t mention the origins of the word Szlachta with in polish is nobility.😁
Please excuse my negative body language, Honored Elder. It's nothing to do with you. I'm afraid ghouls are a... sensitive subject for me. No, I don't want to discuss it. :(
@@theashspawn OOC: When my PC was newly embraced, she stumbled on and took in a homeless girl of roughly the same age (~20yo). She very much doted on the girl, so much so that her complete bastard of a sire just up and killed the ghoul one day "to teach her a lesson." The only lesson it taught her was how to hate strongly enough to let her sneak around the edges of a blood bond. (Admittedly a poorly-maintained one, but still.) Only two decades later, she managed to put exactly the wrong word in exactly the wrong ear at exactly the wrong moment, thereby getting her sire executed and herself permission to move from NYC to LA with a good portion of his personal wealth. 😂 She's never really gotten over the incident though, and hasn't taken a ghoul or gotten emotionally close to anybody since. At least until campaign start.
The character I am potraying is Æthelwin a ventrue elder. I have never really sat down and put stats to him exactly but he is OLD and he is ranks above a prince. So if you do plan to use the character it would have to be because something has gone horribly wrong. He is at the level where he will have access to more disciplines than not and knows how to use them.
@@theashspawn I really like that he has a lot of combat stories. Some people depict the Ventrue as non-fighters, but the Ventrue of Roman days were known as The Warlords. Warrior Ventrue are among my favorite types of characters
How does the Generation of the Kindren effect the Ghoul? For instance if an individual was ghouled and only needed Viate once every Century what Generation would the Kindred most likely be.
So rules as written the ghoul has to feed at least once a month in order to remain as one (with many wanting to feed more often as it is addicting). But how many they get really depends on the edition with 20th having a whole chart with optional variants and V5 having a more XP based system where everything is worth twice as much as it is for a kindred and they must pick a discipline the domitor has but they will keep it if their domitor changes.
@@theashspawn Have you ever tried to accurately stat out The Master of Servents, Cains Ghoul before? He is in lore somewhere between a 3rd-4th Generation in power.
@@insanehippiehippieinsane3828 If you are referring to the first ghoul then I wouldn’t even stat them, just as I wouldn’t any of the Antediluvians, if you are encountering someone of that age and power all you need is just “they win”. I would do the same for any kindred of 6th gen or under really unless the players are elders themselves in which case you are already doing some home brewing. Remember VTM is always more of a story and role-play game, the system does not really lean into hard-core mechanics like this well and often falls apart when you try to.
With many sources, no-they die in agonizing death. It is one of the most cruel punishments. I’ve read somewhere (though it’s unconfirmed) that it also severs the connection to Gaia. However, there are exceptions, and one such exception is on the Red List and goes by the name Ossian.
![[Vampire: The Masquerade] The Guide to Clan Lasombra](/img/1.gif)
Since it comes up in discussion so often, I'm somewhat surprised you didn't clarify for your students whether or not an Embraced ghoul maintains the Bond, and whether or not they keep the Disciplines they've managed to acquire during their service. I have heard vehement assertions in both the affirmative as well as the negative from others, though never having Embraced one of mine, I have no first-hand knowledge in this regard. I was one before my own Embrace, but not one who'd lived long enough in that condition to acquire much power of my own, and was Embraced into the Clan that had created me (Ventrue did so love to meddle with the Holy Orders back then, after all).
That is a good point actually thank you for bringing it up; a ghoul who was bound and embraced will still be bound after. And technically speaking all childe are always partly bound to their sire permanently how much this effects them seems to be case by case however. I find it’s only ever on par to the first stage of a bond unless they make it full one.
As for the keeping of disciplines it is most likely a age combined with self-want as well, if the ghoul wants to keep it and has been one for long enough I imagine it will (if there was a ghoul player who was later embraced I would let them keep them after they became a vampire)
@@theashspawn one that has come up in discussion specifically, is will the Embrace BREAK the Bond. As in, if another Cainite- err, Kindred, sorry, old habits- Embraces another's ghoul, will that newly Embraced individual still be bound to their old Thrall? I always assumed not, but it does bring up some very sticky possibilities...
And when you talk about Revenant families, what if one of them is Embraced by an unrelated Clan? For example, what if a Tremere were to Embrace one of the Przemysl line? Given that they are themselves almost wholly devoted to Clan Tzimisce, what complications could that entail?
@@treize6832 I'll answer the revenant question in that video.
But for the first one I would say that’s probably a table to table thing. It depends if you can be blood bound to two separate people and I’m going to be honest I don’t actually know if you can. But since group bonds and mutual bonds are a thing I imagine that it would be possible.
@@theashspawn If I read the 2E manual correctly, the Embrace itself leaves the Childe with a Tier 1 or 2 blood bond. It then behaves as normal; most Sires maintain and strengthen these bonds, at least as long as they are held liable for the childe's behavior. If it's left alone, though, it would degrade as normal.
@@theashspawn
From what I’ve read, you can have a blood bond with multiple Kindred, but the primary bond-created when you drink blood three times-can only exist with one.
I hope you do discuss revenants soon. I have always enjoyed the study of revenant families.
They are going to be the next vtm video
@@theashspawn Excellent! I will be eagerly awaiting it.
You're finally letting me get a ghoul you're the best Ward ever. I'm going to make sure to feed him regularly and make sure he's loyal and kind. Now the real question is should I get a boy or girl.
You cooked here my diminuitive domitor. You know I'm surprised Renfields never took off as a slang for ghouls in the mordern nights.
Great video
Thank you for your insights, as always...
Thought I had: I know that mages exist in this setting. What happens when you ghoul a mage?
A mage can indeed be ghouled and will be able to keep all of their magic and get the benefits of being a ghoul. Although I have played at one table where being a ghoul weakened their magic before (it was more of a roleplay thing than mechanically).
A lot of ghoul mages however are typically the unaware ones since mages are quite smart and are much harder to sway.
@@theashspawn I am now imagining a prince who's relatively low generation, but is secure in his position because he's got an independent mage ghoul, who's partially doing this because ghoulification is the easiest form of immortality he has access to.
I've seen sources of their avatar being eroded away the more they drink it.
In V20, ghouling a mage is ill-advised, as the vampire's vitae will slowly erode their avatar over time before it is lost completely, leaving the mage useless, as well as the mage can become extremely dangerous to the vampire as they gain a powerful addiction to their blood specifically and will more than likely turn the power dynamic and drink the vampire dry instead. Generally, mages and vampires agree to not mess with each other and keep the peace, though mages working with vampires isn't unheard of; Al-Ashrad worked with the Banu as a demon-hunting mage for a long time before joining the clan.
@@shroomz4thesoul644 I didn't know about the mage becoming addicted to the blood so thank you for that (and I would like a source if you have it)
And im also not sure how long it really takes for their magic to completely go (or their avatar to leave them) I would guess its probably a case by case thing depending on if the mage has the will to try and escape still or if they accept becoming a ghoul.
holy biscuits and gravy, someone is still talking about Vampire:TM. color me shocked and happy. Now I just need to find a Werewolf:TA channel.
I cannot wait to see the revenant video!
There's a reason 'ghoul' rhymes with 'tool'.
I once had a Ventrue who faked his own death and ghouled his identical twin brother. They were legally the same person whom appeared to never sleep
I just saw your revenant video now I need to see this so we can find a weakness to them.
You said that it doesn't matter how many we take out, they'll always be in another revenant they'll always keep coming no...every monster has it's weakness, there has to be a way to remove them permanently, they're are threat to the entire kindred community.
Tell me, oh great elder. Many will say that a clan will have specific traits they desire in a childe. This of course is a lie, as a kindred will use what tools they have as they require them. Do the Tremere ghoul their aspiring pupils before they turn them so as to teach them their ways?
I think that would entirely depend on the practices of the local Chantry or house the Tremere find themselves in. However with the Tremere being one of the most organised and well-structured clans I find it very likely that they would.
If I recall the Honored Elder's lecture on Clan Hecate, and what I've picked up in the Garden myself, this practice was/is practically a trademark of the Giovanni. Amongst other things. 😕
I enjoyed this one
The rules and the logic of the setting push in some dark directions, that are suitable for a horror game. Seldom explored. One of the most evident ones to me is that basement somewhere. With half a dozen vampires, from different clans. All only torsos, legs and arms stumps burned and locked in iron to prevent them from growing. Immobilized in rustic structures of metal, with stakes in their hearts, fixed by metal just for safety. Upside down. Each one with a supplement of human blood connected to them from above, dropping constantly in a controlled fashion.
All of them with a faucet fixed in the forehead. From where the owner of this house extracts the vampire blood he saps slowly every night. Or stocks in bottles for a cold day. Possibly, some now or them, one of those bottles of mixed essence of supernatural vitality is given to a friend or another. Probably after some alchemic processes to disguise the controversial animal nature of the drink.
Technically, that individual is just a ghoul. But, depending on the circumstances, this ghoul could also be an scary monster. Matter of nightmares for the average Camarilla vampire.
Nothing that would disturb a proper Tzimisce embraced more than a few decades ago. I suppose. Or most Sabbat fellows tested by fire some decent number of times.
what's the source for 12:23? That's some really freaky art, I like it.
That art is by Simon Lindwall
As a Tzimisce, I'm willing to help with getting a ghoul for your Khildr :)
🤨
@@theashspawn (I kind of forgot what exactly the spelling for a recent embrace, but I'm offering to help the one you adopted)
Awesome video as always! However, it's a pity that our noble narrator, the Ventrue, didn’t mention the origins of the word Szlachta with in polish is nobility.😁
Please excuse my negative body language, Honored Elder. It's nothing to do with you. I'm afraid ghouls are a... sensitive subject for me. No, I don't want to discuss it. :(
Well now you have peaked my curiosity, but if you wish me not the pry I shan’t. It is your own advantage you throw away after all.
@@theashspawn OOC: When my PC was newly embraced, she stumbled on and took in a homeless girl of roughly the same age (~20yo). She very much doted on the girl, so much so that her complete bastard of a sire just up and killed the ghoul one day "to teach her a lesson." The only lesson it taught her was how to hate strongly enough to let her sneak around the edges of a blood bond. (Admittedly a poorly-maintained one, but still.) Only two decades later, she managed to put exactly the wrong word in exactly the wrong ear at exactly the wrong moment, thereby getting her sire executed and herself permission to move from NYC to LA with a good portion of his personal wealth. 😂
She's never really gotten over the incident though, and hasn't taken a ghoul or gotten emotionally close to anybody since. At least until campaign start.
I would love to see Ashspwan’s character sheets.
The character I am potraying is Æthelwin a ventrue elder. I have never really sat down and put stats to him exactly but he is OLD and he is ranks above a prince. So if you do plan to use the character it would have to be because something has gone horribly wrong. He is at the level where he will have access to more disciplines than not and knows how to use them.
@ thanx. I can tell by your historical references he is very old.
@@theashspawn I really like that he has a lot of combat stories. Some people depict the Ventrue as non-fighters, but the Ventrue of Roman days were known as The Warlords.
Warrior Ventrue are among my favorite types of characters
@@theashspawn from the name I figure he most be at least 1000 years old, and maybe from the 9th century BC or earlier.
@ I will tell you that he is over a 1000 years old but he was born AD not BC.
Can you make century age of ashes lore about two new dragons
How does the Generation of the Kindren effect the Ghoul?
For instance if an individual was ghouled and only needed Viate once every Century what Generation would the Kindred most likely be.
So rules as written the ghoul has to feed at least once a month in order to remain as one (with many wanting to feed more often as it is addicting).
But how many they get really depends on the edition with 20th having a whole chart with optional variants and V5 having a more XP based system where everything is worth twice as much as it is for a kindred and they must pick a discipline the domitor has but they will keep it if their domitor changes.
@theashspawn None of those systems are that good though.
@@insanehippiehippieinsane3828 I'm curious, what's wrong with them in your eyes?
@@theashspawn Have you ever tried to accurately stat out The Master of Servents, Cains Ghoul before?
He is in lore somewhere between a 3rd-4th Generation in power.
@@insanehippiehippieinsane3828 If you are referring to the first ghoul then I wouldn’t even stat them, just as I wouldn’t any of the Antediluvians, if you are encountering someone of that age and power all you need is just “they win”.
I would do the same for any kindred of 6th gen or under really unless the players are elders themselves in which case you are already doing some home brewing. Remember VTM is always more of a story and role-play game, the system does not really lean into hard-core mechanics like this well and often falls apart when you try to.
I have a kysid ghoul player do they just not have clan weeknesses since cold iron would already do lethal damage
Now what about werewolves ❓
I have just now started to talk about other creatures from the Vampires perspective, so there will be a few more first but soon I will speak of them.
I may have an odd question, esteemed elder.
Can a lupine become a ghoul?
Theoretically of course.
With many sources, no-they die in agonizing death. It is one of the most cruel punishments. I’ve read somewhere (though it’s unconfirmed) that it also severs the connection to Gaia. However, there are exceptions, and one such exception is on the Red List and goes by the name Ossian.
@ Thank you.
That’s useful to know.
In other words ghouls are familiars... And the way you describe them they remind me of His Lord ship's Dracula's familiar Renfeild... Ugh