The thing that always surprises me is this idea of what succes is. I find it strange that just becoming rich equals being successful. Where as to me living a life you are content with and living with joy and kindness is much more a succesful life.
@@Puuwsit’s all about your own definition of success. Owning a big car or a huge home isn’t a success in my book. Helping friends and having time to spend with my family is more than enough. My parents were struggling financially, but they were there for all the time. All their kids landed on their feet and I am trying to do the same for mine. If I succeed than it will be my biggest success.
@@SamyasaSwi maby not so much for a dutch, but in general... did new insights change u, or made an (lasting) impact .. to work toward something better... a wish to chenge the status que
@@rensvanderploeg1945 i always have the same feeling when I am back in NL . Its so small and flat LOL But to be honest I miss certain things a lot .Especially conversing in our native language
@@jeroenvanrixel7980 I do not care about the language, we got 4 at home. But I do miss the bitterbsllen. I am glad my children like it also, so a visit to the Netherlands means we need to get these things as well of getting chiinese food. Funny how each other European country has a local adaption to the chinese (Indonesian in reality) food. About the flatness, yes, looking from here to the Mont Blanc this afternoon when I was shopping, I thought next time I need to take my mobile with me to take a picture. Nowadays I keep being amazed at how flat the Netherlands is. We live next to the Jura (France, 10Km from Geneva) so you can imagine.
As a Dutchie that never lived abroad, I never realized how much it's in our culture. Suddenly the saying 'oefening baart kunst' gets a whole new context. The work part is very recognisable (I recently started my first real job after a traineeship). First thing my manager did in our first official conversation after I started was recommend various courses. We even have a column on the intranet we refer to as 'fuck up friday'. The whole point of that column is that someone tells something they did wrong and how they remedied that.
Wow, you made me realize that we are actually raised with this mindset 'oefening baart kunst'. Until now I didn't even know it was a mindset, just thought it was true 😂
My path through education: mavo, havo, sociale academie. Avondschool math mavo, havo, summer school math vwo. Master econometrics. Retired. Now learning Swedish, although I’m not good with languages. But it’s fun to do.
@@jpdj2715 I know, I used to be bad with math, but it turned out that I had dyscalculia. That problem was mostly solved with the calculator. So I must have some language cells in my brain. Main problem with languages is the pronunciation. That will not be a problem with Swedish, because I will never go there.
@@jacques7799 don’t know, however I had a dyslectic prof. 😀 I just can’t add,, subtract, and multiply without a calculator. But I’m very good in mathematics, even had a cum laude for my propedeuse. Thanks to the calculator.
Through watching expats like yourself I learned that this Dutch openness and acceptance of "failure" is not typical in many other countries. It's also part of the reason why people (at work) can be more direct about each others ideas. In a culture where failure is looked down upon, criticising someone lands a lot harder.
When I was 14 I moved to France because my father got a job in Paris. I went to a school with a lot of focus on growth, although it was pretty strict. The last two years before the final exam (baccalaréat) we had filodophy. In France the schoolnotes go from 1 to 20, but our philosophy teacher said: from me you’ll never get a note higher than 14, to teach you there is a lot more to learn.
Ik volg je leuke kanaal al een tijdje, maar van deze video ben ik echt onder de indruk... Dank je wel voor het delen van je verhaal. En wat fijn dat je hier in Nederland zo goed je draai hebt gevonden!
We are moving to NL in a couple months and my daughter will be going to college I am so excited that you posted this. She like you (kind of) will be graduating with her bachelors degree this May and is turning 19 this March. Being in college so young has given her a lot of issues as you described. You explaining how different it will be in NL is such a relief and one of the main reasons we are moving. We can not wait to embrace the dutch mindset and take all our Dutch lessons. AND I already said when people speak English to us its just that they are practicing English while we are trying to learn dutch. :). Love all your videos :)
Forgive us to immediately start talking English to you, the moment we hear you're not a native Dutch speaking person. Maybe we're too proud to speak English (and often some other languages as well). Just be as direct as Dutchies are and tell us to stop and let you practice. And ask to switch to English when you need that to express yourself. All the best for you and your daughter!
Thank you very much for this video! As a new US expat to the Netherlands, I feel that what you just shared here is an important piece of the culture to learn. Now, I can remind myself not to feel horrible when I get feedback or comment about my work or even personal life.
I've had 10's in high school. It happens only with exact subjects like maths, and with tests that have only closed questions. With open questions, there's always room for improvement.
I had the same, for the exact sciences scoring a 10/10 is very well possible. Any topic where you have to write something or explain a soft science principle there is room for improvement and you hardly ever score a 10/10
@@raisan5989Aye, same. I did have a couple of 10/10 in some projects where you had to make a rapport. But that had more to do with the amount of work put in (of course it had to be correct as well) than that it was brilliant. And that only happened because my mother found out about it and forced me to spend far more time on it then I would have had otherwise 😅
Really enjoyed this video! I think part of the learning culture is also about efficiency and having realistic expectations and priorities. A 6/10 means you understand the subject matter to the extent that is needed to continue at a perfectly acceptable level. You're only going to put in the extra time and effort to get a higher grade if the topic really interests you and you might want to pursue a career in that field. Spending a lot of time and energy 'excelling' at a topic that you don't really care about is not only frustrating and bad for motivation, it's also a waste of time. After all, you could be spending that time and energy doing a hobby or enjoying life instead of excelling purely for the sake of excellence. It's efficient to know when to spend your time/energy and when to save it for something more important, it shows that you know how to set priorities.
So true about language. I am Dutch and am pretty proficient in German. Now when I am in Germany I am always hesitating and when I notice English is an option I immediately switch. Totally unnecessary because my German is good enough and people really appreciate it. Also, I think the ultimate step to feel home in the Netherlands is not language, although it certainly helps. It is grasping the concept of Dutch directness. As you say, it's no joke but it makes life so much easier.
As a Dutch kid I (felt I) was one of the very few who never learned how to ice skate, and boy knowing how to skate is important in our country! So when I got to puberty I was actually afraid to admit that I didn't know and would dread cold winters because it meant that we would have to skate in our PE classes. I would come up with all kinds of excuses. Then I moved to Spain, a country where most people don't know how to skate (ice or roller) and I finally learned (at age 36) because there I was just one of many who didn't know, so I didn't have to feel ashamed. When my Dutch friends saw videos on social media of me skating they asked "hey, I thought you hated skating?" - "Hated it? No! I didn't know HOW to!" - "Whaaatt???" 🤣
On learning to ride a bicycle, at an IT consulting job for an organization that did social programs I observed migrant women being taught how to ride, I had a chat with the instructor and learned something interesting: being able to ride a bicycle didn't just improve their physical mobility it also greatly improved their social mobility, to a point they quickly surpassed their husbands in that regard.
very interesting. I have been able to ride a bike since about 4 years of age and I still remember the first day my dad let go of the saddle and I was away. However, my daughter is 16 and autistic and still is unable to despite my trying when she was young. She is about to have lessons with a specialist teacher. I really hope it helps her socially also .
Apart from the Dutch directness, another key element of Dutch culture is: Don't stand out, blend in. In the US the default setting is Be special, be one of a kind. Here you are better appreciated if you blend in. Act normal (doe normaal). I feel this is a positive feature, but there are also downsides to it. Excelling is a verb that is often frowned upon. Others have already referred to the zesjescultuur in previous comments. While there is nothing wrong with scoring a 'six', there is is also nothing wrong with scoring a ten, or straights A's as they call it in the US.
I don't think the don't stand out, but blend in represents the Dutch culture well. Compared to the rest of Europe, dutch people do have more identity and are definitely not afraid to speak their mind. I think being your best self and work to live is a better representation of what it is to be Dutch.
I don’t agree that “doe normaal is not to stand out, it is more like don’t flaunt, do not be arrogant, do not show off. That is what it entails. Because if you have ever been to the netherlands, people can be what they want to be , even if it is not your thing.
As a sociologist we once had a class comparing educational systems from different countries. In my opinion these say a lot about what a people value in life. Main point of divergence was that in Dutch high schools the level of education was comparably high, especially in STEM subjects, wheras in America there was much more emphasis on self presentation, communication skills and self realisation in that social aspect. Dutch calvinistic induced culture emphasizes working hard, so try to crack your brain on the edge of its capacity with the recognition that difference in mental capability exists. No one should be left out and the less intelligent students in class should be approached, cheered, challanged and praised at their level, where smarter students should get more difficult tasks to wrap their heads around at he same time, apl within the bandwidth of the same classroom mind you. At least that is what you get thaught during your teacher education and internship. What is important is that as a student you get taught to show your effort in the face of obstacles and that you learn to speak up without shame when you don’t get it. The teacher is in charge of creating and maintaining a safe learning environment to facilitate that. Becoming a good teacher is very hard and I tried and flunked at it. Sometimes shear effort isn't enough and it is very important to recognise and admit when you are in over your head. You own that responsibility to yourself and others. ❤
I follow, but usually don't comment. I think your "growth" versus "achievement" distinction is great. It comes with lots of discussions about lots of difficult issues but it is a wonderful POV.
Feedback is golden. It’s free advice on how to improve something. People appreciate it if you listen to their feedback and tell them you’re going to do something with it. At my work we ask the customers a few questions. What went right, what went wrong during your visit. What can we do better? And the amount of tips we got out of that is priceless. And I recognize something of your story in meetings when you don’t understand immediately what what said or what it means. In my work they use abbreviations. They sometimes use 4 abbreviations in one sentence. And you didn’t understand the first one and 2 minutes later you are still thinking “what do they mean with xyz”? And instead of asking you don’t, because you don’t want to come over as stupid. But since you don’t understand right away what was talked about, you can not contribute anything to the discussion. Some of my colleagues ask right away “what does that mean” or “what does that abreviation mean”. The other explains and you can go on. There are lots of people having trouble in just asking what they meant with this or that. And it’s difficult to change, but once you do, you will notice how more productive a meeting can be.
@@DutchAmericano I was at the opposite end of the scale..because I was too good at English.During class I was forbidden to answer questions the teacher asked of the class. 'No not you ! Give other people a chance ! You don't make friends if you always know the answer.
I once got a 3,3 for theoretical surveying as a technical subject on higher vocational school (technical college), my lowest grade ever. And I was very embarrassed and angry at myself, because the teacher had warned the whole class for this difficult first exam, that we had to study hard and also that he wouldn’t give a 1,0 for ‘effort’ as the lowest grade, like some other teachers did. And I didn’t get the lowest grade, there was no one with a 5,5 or higher, so no one passed. And there were really some class mates graded below 1,0, with a 0,9, a 0,7 and the lowest, 0,2. Because everyone flunked the whole class had to redo the exam, this was my rescue (or is it salvation?). And I really really studied hard, because the teacher kept the first grade standing and I needed at least a 7,7 to reach a 5,5 average. I got almost a 9 so I was in the clear. The rest of the semester I kept my attention in his class and kept studying hard, which wasn’t easy for me. But I passed the three following exams and ended the year with a 7,9 average, which felt very satisfying.
@@MusicJunky3 And the teacher needs the whole class to think, and wants to find out who is keeping up, and give random turns. If one person answers all the questions then the rest migh as well take a nap or think about Minecraft.
As a dutch man I make a YT video in english so more people than dutch can understand. Want wees nu eerlijk, hoeveel mensen kunnen dit nog lezen als ik nederlands ga lullen en niet meteen een vertaal app moeten gebruiken.
As someone who grew up in the US as "gifted" and graduated HS with a 6.1/4.0 GPA (yes that is correct) and was reprimanded when I DIDN'T score 100% on a test (that I got a 90 without even studying) I really appreciate this. I am learning to not take criticism so personally- but it's slow. I wish I could show this to one of my old managers 😅
Thanks for sharing how you have grown over time Eva. It was a while back since your last video but worth the while. You're touching topics that are less tangible but in the end matter in a more essential way. Like this topic. Please know that it sometimes happens that students get a 10 out of 10. But then really everything was done completely correctly. As to the 'daring to fail' topic, I looked it up: there is this quote from the author of Dracula, the Irish author Abraham Stoker, which says: "We learn from failure, not from success!” Finally, myself being native Spanish speaking (Spanish mother and Frisian father) I find it a pity to hear that you totally stopped talking Spanish. That being said I must say that the few times you say something in Dutch, your pronunciation is like that of a native Dutch speaker. Respect! No wonder you studied linguistics.
very interesting. I speak pretty good Spanish and am learning Dutch, but I am very hesitant to try and speak dutch and feel like my partner constantly picks up my mistakes, which makes me feel embarrassed. The Dutch school system feels a little narrow with its streaming and from my partner's perspective
Very recognizable. There cannot be growth without failure. Even though we don't like to fail, we learn more from our failed attempts and less from our successes. Prioritizing growth in life eventually leads to a more balanced and healthy life than prioritizing raw succes or being "perfect".
"You're a genius" comes from a fixed mindset. I always get "Oh, you're so creative, I wish I was that creative so I could make things like that." No I am not creative. I just tried and tried and tried, and slowly progressed to finally be able to create this.
Oh, thats funny, later in your video you come to that same conclusion! growth mindset high-five! I'd like to add that this growth mindset is not a cultural thing. Many people in the Netherlands are stuck in a fixed mindset.
As an expat, my favourite city in the Netherlands still remains Utrecht. I do not know if you have done this already, but could you make a video for the non-Utrecht people about the werfkelders in Utrecht? RTV Utrecht made a whole serie about them. I wonder how you experience them, as I guess that does not exist anywhere else in this form.
12:43 You'll see it quite often in practice actually. Depending on the subject and the nature of tests given there, but for example at school I often got a 10 in "exact" sciences and even had a 10 as final grade for maths (or one of the modules the whole subject was divided into).
Shocked at you feeling like everything having to come naturally during an effing *PhD*! The hardest thing ever, where everybody needs to do long hard thinking! I'm sad for your former self. Glad you made it out of that mindset 😊. Also, I teach at a Dutch university and gave someone a 9.9 on an exam with some open questions the other day! I was a bit shocked myself 😅. And last year I had the honour to give someone a 9.5 on their thesis for the first time. It was amazing - the 'imperfections' were basically in the student having needed some feedback on statistics.
@@balaenopteramusculus I agree. But there are students who put so much effort in learning just enough, that with the same effort studying they could have scored better. 😊
Everything above a 5.5 is just wasted effort. 😂 My dad was the exact opposite, I remember him always in his study when I was a kid. Maybe that's why I hated school. [Grammar corrected] 😉
I finished high school at a low level but learned so much over the years, most Americans I now meet ask me which university education I followed. I think this is the case with many more Dutchies and isn't only due to the school system but also coz in general Europeans are more exposed to matters beyond their horizon.
If you learn something new without any effort whatsoever, then how can you be proud of yourself. If you really, really struggle learning something, and in the end after many intermediate failures you succeed, you wil have such an enormous sense of accomplishment.
Well I used to be kind of a genius. At the age of eight I had read through the complete youth library section in our town. For fun, because I liked reading. And that wasn't a problem until people started noticing. At some point I landed in a conversation with the basic school teacher about the role of Odysseus in the Trojan War and that made the rest of my life much more difficult. Because since then I was special.
Yes I think that describes the mindset pretty well. It's not that we don't have to opposite in certain working environments but it's not the norm. I have a new colleague who came from an "afrekencultuur" and goes through your process at our firm. Needs a dudge every now and then but has finally seen the worth of growth over performance and the change in him is wonderful to see. So much happier, daring and better at what he's doing. I do think you mistyped those geniuses. It's not that they are above certain things in a good/bad kind of sense, it's just that they don't see the point of spending time on things they don't see any value in, even when everyone around them does. They don't see the world as a place to perform and conform but as a candystore where they can go wild. They aren't above it they are simply someplace else altogether. Not because they are rebellious but because the have their own valuesystem they live by. This can coincide with conventional value just as easy as differ and it often does. We just see the differences more easily.
It takes courage to have a learning attitude. Like this friend of mine has. He is not ashamed at all to say he's learning. The result is, he's more sucsesfull in achieving new things then I am, as he's not afraid to make a mistake.
Exactly. Experience is what you'll have right after you needed it. Or put differently, when you were born you couldn't even walk, talk or understand your own language. So yeah, you need to learn stuff and so does everybody else.
I actually got a 10/10 once in my life, on a small "exam" in highschool. We were tested on our proper use of "ne pas" or the french word for "don't" I think? We had to properly insert the word into 10 sentences. I had no clue about the grammatical rules behind it, so I just tried putting them where they "felt right". Turned out all of them were correct. xD
I can absolutely feel the "genius adore culture" that you mentioned in the U.S. Even though I am Chinese I do think these two countries share a lot of similarities in workplace culture and the judgment of value of a person. I had a semester being an exchange student in Amsterdam, and I also admire and feel great about the Dutch's directness and their attitude about failure and obstacles in their culture. Those make me feel I can deal with problems in a more relaxed way and I don't need to worry if people make good comments about me or my viewpoints just because they have to do.
So true Ava, part of what you're describing is normal performance anxiety that exists anywhere, it is not cultural. Self doubt, "am I good enough?" Not much different from a young boy fearing to approach a girl he likes because he fears that he will screw up something in his approach. But yes, in The Netherlands you can discuss with others mistakes that you have made, your failures and even struggles you have at present, admit your wrong doings and it will be viewed as open minded self reflection where as in The US it will be viewed as weakness and self deprivation. I believe it roots in an inherent sense of competition that is part of American culture.
I remember here that after we take the test and the results where in, there was a class where the would go over all the questions and talk about why is that specifiek answer. Or there where was a separate voluntary meeting where student would go to talk about there test. It really helped me a lot.
As an American, I love that style of thinking. Where I make my most money, nearly every time that I've given any feedback whatsoever, it's accompanied by a threat of a significant pay reduction in the future, which is such a toxic way of going about things. And I love the idea that 10 out of 10 is rare. That's a mindset that I wish would take over the U.S. Overall, this idea that making mistakes is okay is so much healthier.
I will say, many exams in the netherlands include about 10% of their points as so called "stretch questions". These are topics you have not learned yet, but might be able to resolve with what you have learned already
As a Dutchie this is very interesting to me because this mindset is what I grew up with and was just so... normal. I can't imagine always striving for the absolute best, which is unachievable and therefore only stressing people out
Hi, Ava... thanks for this video, giving a nice insight into the US psychology. Indeed the Dutch, Europeans more in general, focus on the journey and what they can learn from it.. and failiure gives us the best opportunity to learn. I guess you're picking that train of thought up quite good. The other factor ofcourse is that Europeans percieve life is something to be lived and enjoyed.. and not work your butt off until they burry you. And please.... keep talking to us ... ❤
I did on minor elements score an 11 in school. But mostly you are right. My parents were both teachers (not great as a kid, but much appreciated in hindsight) and I remember a phrase they used to use (although not literally regrettably, which proves the point) that went something like: "you can do everything perfectly, but the 10....is for the teacher "
So glad to hear you let go of having to excel at the dutch language. Because of that you have become excellent at it. At least for an expat. No pressure. Dutchies can also make mistakes. So keep on growing Er zijn geen domme vragen
I once was late to class. The teacher wasn't happy. He was handing out graded papers for an important test. I then got my result and it was a straight 10. I said, in front of the whole class, that apparently I was there enough of the time. He *really* wasn't happy with that. 🤭
Hello Ava, my daughter was twelve years old when she went to high school. She turned out to be too good for this and after two years switched to pre-university education. She had science subjects such as chemistry, mathematics, physics. She wanted to be an architect. After two years it turned out that it was actually too hard and she decided to go back to high school. She chose biology and languages. The dream of being an architect was over. She graduated and went on to study social science. After a year, she passed her propaedeutic year and quit this study. She switched to studying health sciences. She graduated and took a year off to reflect. She worked as a clerk at the university. She then started a new study and obtained two master's degrees in the field of psychology within two years. She is now 21 years older, has 8 years of work experience and is one of the best in the field of behavioural sciences. I'm glad we live in the Netherlands.
Looking back at my life I only leaned when I failed. I grew as a person and got better. Success never brought me that. Most people I know and who are interesting have failed and concerned. They pushed it beyond breaking and grew. I still learn today, do things that scare me as that makes life so much more fun.
I feel the Dutch mindset can be explained with the Pareto principle. The 80-20 rule where you can achieve 80 percent of the desired result with 20 percent of the effort. While getting to a hundred percent would require 80 procent effort. Many of my managers used to remind me of this rule usually at the annual employee assessment, but also in the 360 degrees feedback reports. I often wanted to achieve more than the customer and the project required. By using Pareto you can achieve a lot in less time.
Ah I come from a similar culture! And, I struggled a lot…I’m grateful to be able to observe another mindset here in the Nl… In my culture, you should study/work very hard but keep it secret and act as if it is effortless but, also without saying indicate that you work/study very hard. So hard that it eats up all your life and gives you no space for yourself and your hobbies. Then, you’re genius. And, you should never ever make a mistake, ask a silly question or fail a class/ assignment etc. Then, it means that you’re a dimwit…like forever now on. Or your mistakes should be punished etc. I see that mind set is evolving and of course not every single person acts like that. However, I could be happier and have less mental struggles with growing up in a place with a different mindset. Now, I try to flourish myself with different perspectives of living :)
@@daviddevos3518 Nee, ik bedoel echt het verschil tussen intelligentie en slim zijn. Het is niet hetzelfde. Iemand die heel intelligent is kan goed verbanden leggen en in abstractie redeneren. Je kunt het ten dele inzetten om brute force zwakheden te verbergen. Maar het helpt je niet per se in het ondervangen van bv. naïviteit of buiten de kaders denken als dat niet eens in je opkomt. In het kort: intelligentie geeft je gereedschap, maar slimheid maakt dat je het ook zinvol kunt inzetten. Het is heel goed mogelijk om hoogbegaafd te zijn en tegelijk compleet wereldvreemd. Het stereotype bestaat niet voor niets.
@@daviddevos3518 Hoi. Ik had een stukje geschreven over hoe ik echt het verschil bedoel zoals ik het zei. Maar het is automatisch verwijderd. Geen idee waarom maar geen zin om alles weer opnieuw te schrijven. Het is in de comments bijna schier onmogelijk om een zinvolle reply te typen omdat de kans groot is dat het algoritme er iets raars in meent te zien. Zeer jammer. Het is altijd maar de gok of het nog terugkomt. Meestal niet. Ik gebruik een VPN wat schijnbaar de boel nog 10 keer erger maakt. Hopelijk kun je mijn originele reactie binnenkort weer lezen. Gedoe. Op 'newest comments' zoeken ipv 'top comments' helpt soms maar dat betekent dat standaard niemand ze ziet. Goed voor een gezonde dialoog pfff.
In the Netherlands you still see the fixed mindset. Especially with "gifted" (Dutch: hoogbegaafde) kids. Not necessarily tested for it, but many of the kids who get in the bonus groups at school have that mindset. I used to, a lot. And I struggled with a lot of what you mentioned. I do think the kid I coach is being taught about growth mindset elements in het plus group. But when I was young, I just got more advanced work.
I'd go one further on the "growth mindset." (Side note - like that phrase, and totally agree on that!) From the sounds of it, you do actually have a knack for languages - certainly more than I do - but that doesn't change anything... The "growth mindset" and just speaking/trying regardless of whether they switch back to English etc., applies to all of us regardless of whether we have a knack. I take longer to learn language, I'm slower generally, I can't comprehend speech when there's background noise, etc., etc.... but so what?! The right thing to do is to crack on with it anyway. I saw all this for anyone watching the video and thinking that the "growth mindset" is easy and fine for someone who has more of a knack for language. I say it applies to all of us, even people like me who learn language extremely slowly, and even still struggles to hear my own native tongue when out with friends in a noisy environment. My kids mock me constantly... which is hilarious and to be encouraged :)
that's because i think learning and almost everything should come from the heart, from what i hear americans love to pressure eachother. the more you put pressure on something, the less fun something becomes.
As an American I can tell you that Americans think in very black and white terms. Most jobs are sink or swim. There is no room for learning. The people who excel and don't want mistakes. They hate people that are new and need training and only want experience.
Here's a thing to think about, most people here in the Netherlands and the countries around us INTESENSILY mistrust accomplishment without effort. If you had come to your friends one day suddenly cycling effortlessly, they would have suspected you of lying, cheating and doping. They'd written the accomplishment off and begrudge you for making a fuss about it. If they'd saw you falling of your bike, every day for a year, but each day managing to fall a little softer, they'd praise you to high heaven to every friend, family member and randomly passing stranger. They'd still be pointing and laughing in your face about falling but that's because they're your friends and they care.
Hi Ava, as always, great video. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings. Something has changed in the past 40-50 years, I see. When I was at the Mavo in the 70s, I was the one and only person in my class who would always get 11 (out of 10) for my calculus and geometry tests. Maybe it would've been better for me, if they'd made me work harder by not praising me up that much.
Funnily enough, here in The Netherlands, some 20 or 30 years ago, more or less the opposite used to be said: that, for example, here a past bankruptcy would mark an enterpreneur as a failure, whereas in the US, it would be a sign that that person had valuable experience and had had the opportunity to learn how things actually work.
When a Dutch person does something exceptional, like running very fast in athletics, or singing very well, or whatever, we are always expected to say something like "O yeah, but it was not easy and I had to work hard for it", etc.etc. EVEN if that is not really the case, and it really went effortlessly. In the Netherlands it is OK to excell, but you are expected play downplay your achievements. If you don't do that people will find you arrogant and stuck up.
The best way to learn (or teach) something, considered difficult, as grownups, is to have a good laugh. I always wanted to learn speed skating. Finally, age 35, I joined a course, meant for homemakers (???). First things we had to learn: yes, being 6’ and standing upright on skates is quite frightening, and no, that is not how it’s done. "Lower your butt". Oke… "It’s called the pooping posture". Life was so much more relaxed with those words in mind.
Ava I feel like you and I are the same! (granted we are both NYkers, so that) I also took Spanish for 6 yrs! and basically stopped and can barely speak now and never use it. I also got praised for picking up Dutch quickly and then suddenly everything was start and stop/i rested on laurels if you will and now Im back to the beginning almost?! Why are we like this!?
like the dutch say 'doe maar normaal' and it is normal to make mistakes (just ask a musician how much he/she had to practice) .. making mistakes is part of our life so we should own and learn from them ... and as always, your video's are great!
The real innate geniuses actually regularly do score 10/10. With comparatively little effort. I’m not one of them, but do know some. Anyways, you’re right about the ability and willingness to change being highly valued in the system. I agree that that’s a great thing.
Excellent very inspiring! There is indeed always room to grow. Although the "never 10" part is not completely true. It depends on the type/level of education/schooling. The higher the level the more tests and exams become open questions or a mix of open and exact'. In these cases you are absolutely right as there are by-design no perfect answers with open questions. But there are test and exams that only have single answer questions. In those cases it absolutely possible to score a perfect 10... I scored a for chemistry finals the 90s ad also language word tests, etc. (as did many others). But those are just a few 10 scores on single answer tests. But over a year you get a mixed of single and open answer tests. So still impossible to score a perfect 10 for a whole year. Which fully fits the always room for improvement / there are no perfect answers philosophy.
I did have 3 nines on my graduation, but there was a simple reason, they never gave a 10 because they started counting at 0 and had only 10 numbers to give.
My girlfriend is doing an NCOI education for adults degree in European Studies and she got a 10 on one of her courses a couple months ago, so it is definitely possible here.
Keep in mind that there are very different places with different values within the Netherlands as well. Especially Amsterdam can be very different than other places.
The thing that always surprises me is this idea of what succes is. I find it strange that just becoming rich equals being successful. Where as to me living a life you are content with and living with joy and kindness is much more a succesful life.
This called "living the good life" in philospy
thats more about happiness. being succesfull is about being a specialist or earning a lot here as well, it's just less valued
@@Puuwsit’s all about your own definition of success. Owning a big car or a huge home isn’t a success in my book. Helping friends and having time to spend with my family is more than enough. My parents were struggling financially, but they were there for all the time. All their kids landed on their feet and I am trying to do the same for mine. If I succeed than it will be my biggest success.
@@Puuws in my opinion happiness *is* success
I’d rather be happy than successful. I’m Dutch
As a Dutch follower, this was an inspiring video. I'm flabbergasted by how your outside perspective teaches me things about my own culture.
The question is, did it inspire you to make a chenge...
If a change was needed!
@@Patrik6920 Why is that the question?
@@SamyasaSwi maby not so much for a dutch, but in general... did new insights change u, or made an (lasting) impact .. to work toward something better... a wish to chenge the status que
As a Dutch expat for 25 years in Latin America, I love your channel . I start to miss the Netherlands.
Awww, I can imagine. 25 years is a long time.
@@DutchAmericano te lang !!!
@@jeroenvanrixel7980 Out of the Netherlands since 1997 (stopped counting), but after a week in the Netherlands I get the urge to leave.
@@rensvanderploeg1945 i always have the same feeling when I am back in NL . Its so small and flat LOL
But to be honest I miss certain things a lot .Especially conversing in our native language
@@jeroenvanrixel7980 I do not care about the language, we got 4 at home. But I do miss the bitterbsllen. I am glad my children like it also, so a visit to the Netherlands means we need to get these things as well of getting chiinese food. Funny how each other European country has a local adaption to the chinese (Indonesian in reality) food. About the flatness, yes, looking from here to the Mont Blanc this afternoon when I was shopping, I thought next time I need to take my mobile with me to take a picture. Nowadays I keep being amazed at how flat the Netherlands is. We live next to the Jura (France, 10Km from Geneva) so you can imagine.
As a Dutchie that never lived abroad, I never realized how much it's in our culture. Suddenly the saying 'oefening baart kunst' gets a whole new context.
The work part is very recognisable (I recently started my first real job after a traineeship). First thing my manager did in our first official conversation after I started was recommend various courses. We even have a column on the intranet we refer to as 'fuck up friday'. The whole point of that column is that someone tells something they did wrong and how they remedied that.
Wow, you made me realize that we are actually raised with this mindset 'oefening baart kunst'. Until now I didn't even know it was a mindset, just thought it was true 😂
a 9 out of 10 video!
8 at best, thers still room for improvements ;D ... also the swedish mindset...
My path through education: mavo, havo, sociale academie. Avondschool math mavo, havo, summer school math vwo. Master econometrics.
Retired. Now learning Swedish, although I’m not good with languages. But it’s fun to do.
Math is like wordplay a language with reserved words and grammar. If Swedish is too irregular, try Spanish or Italian, Or South African.
Knäckebröd
@@jpdj2715 I know, I used to be bad with math, but it turned out that I had dyscalculia. That problem was mostly solved with the calculator. So I must have some language cells in my brain. Main problem with languages is the pronunciation. That will not be a problem with Swedish, because I will never go there.
@@jannetteberends8730 Dyscalculia and a Master in Econometrics? Not a lot of people like that around here, I guess?
@@jacques7799 don’t know, however I had a dyslectic prof. 😀
I just can’t add,, subtract, and multiply without a calculator. But I’m very good in mathematics, even had a cum laude for my propedeuse.
Thanks to the calculator.
Through watching expats like yourself I learned that this Dutch openness and acceptance of "failure" is not typical in many other countries.
It's also part of the reason why people (at work) can be more direct about each others ideas.
In a culture where failure is looked down upon, criticising someone lands a lot harder.
When I was 14 I moved to France because my father got a job in Paris. I went to a school with a lot of focus on growth, although it was pretty strict. The last two years before the final exam (baccalaréat) we had filodophy. In France the schoolnotes go from 1 to 20, but our philosophy teacher said: from me you’ll never get a note higher than 14, to teach you there is a lot more to learn.
Ik volg je leuke kanaal al een tijdje, maar van deze video ben ik echt onder de indruk... Dank je wel voor het delen van je verhaal. En wat fijn dat je hier in Nederland zo goed je draai hebt gevonden!
We are moving to NL in a couple months and my daughter will be going to college I am so excited that you posted this. She like you (kind of) will be graduating with her bachelors degree this May and is turning 19 this March. Being in college so young has given her a lot of issues as you described. You explaining how different it will be in NL is such a relief and one of the main reasons we are moving. We can not wait to embrace the dutch mindset and take all our Dutch lessons. AND I already said when people speak English to us its just that they are practicing English while we are trying to learn dutch. :). Love all your videos :)
Forgive us to immediately start talking English to you, the moment we hear you're not a native Dutch speaking person.
Maybe we're too proud to speak English (and often some other languages as well). Just be as direct as Dutchies are and tell us to stop and let you practice. And ask to switch to English when you need that to express yourself.
All the best for you and your daughter!
Thank you very much for this video! As a new US expat to the Netherlands, I feel that what you just shared here is an important piece of the culture to learn. Now, I can remind myself not to feel horrible when I get feedback or comment about my work or even personal life.
I've had 10's in high school. It happens only with exact subjects like maths, and with tests that have only closed questions. With open questions, there's always room for improvement.
I had the same, for the exact sciences scoring a 10/10 is very well possible. Any topic where you have to write something or explain a soft science principle there is room for improvement and you hardly ever score a 10/10
@@raisan5989Aye, same. I did have a couple of 10/10 in some projects where you had to make a rapport. But that had more to do with the amount of work put in (of course it had to be correct as well) than that it was brilliant. And that only happened because my mother found out about it and forced me to spend far more time on it then I would have had otherwise 😅
Long time ago I had 2 10’s in my final exams, for English and history 😂. Was not so good in the exact subjects.
Really enjoyed this video! I think part of the learning culture is also about efficiency and having realistic expectations and priorities. A 6/10 means you understand the subject matter to the extent that is needed to continue at a perfectly acceptable level. You're only going to put in the extra time and effort to get a higher grade if the topic really interests you and you might want to pursue a career in that field. Spending a lot of time and energy 'excelling' at a topic that you don't really care about is not only frustrating and bad for motivation, it's also a waste of time. After all, you could be spending that time and energy doing a hobby or enjoying life instead of excelling purely for the sake of excellence. It's efficient to know when to spend your time/energy and when to save it for something more important, it shows that you know how to set priorities.
So true about language. I am Dutch and am pretty proficient in German. Now when I am in Germany I am always hesitating and when I notice English is an option I immediately switch. Totally unnecessary because my German is good enough and people really appreciate it.
Also, I think the ultimate step to feel home in the Netherlands is not language, although it certainly helps. It is grasping the concept of Dutch directness. As you say, it's no joke but it makes life so much easier.
As a Dutch kid I (felt I) was one of the very few who never learned how to ice skate, and boy knowing how to skate is important in our country! So when I got to puberty I was actually afraid to admit that I didn't know and would dread cold winters because it meant that we would have to skate in our PE classes. I would come up with all kinds of excuses. Then I moved to Spain, a country where most people don't know how to skate (ice or roller) and I finally learned (at age 36) because there I was just one of many who didn't know, so I didn't have to feel ashamed. When my Dutch friends saw videos on social media of me skating they asked "hey, I thought you hated skating?" - "Hated it? No! I didn't know HOW to!" - "Whaaatt???" 🤣
I love this ❤. As an American, I feel these same anxieties and expectations. I want to move to the NL so bad 😭
This is likely your best post ever. Congrats!
On learning to ride a bicycle, at an IT consulting job for an organization that did social programs I observed migrant women being taught how to ride, I had a chat with the instructor and learned something interesting: being able to ride a bicycle didn't just improve their physical mobility it also greatly improved their social mobility, to a point they quickly surpassed their husbands in that regard.
very interesting. I have been able to ride a bike since about 4 years of age and I still remember the first day my dad let go of the saddle and I was away. However, my daughter is 16 and autistic and still is unable to despite my trying when she was young. She is about to have lessons with a specialist teacher. I really hope it helps her socially also .
Apart from the Dutch directness, another key element of Dutch culture is: Don't stand out, blend in. In the US the default setting is Be special, be one of a kind. Here you are better appreciated if you blend in. Act normal (doe normaal). I feel this is a positive feature, but there are also downsides to it. Excelling is a verb that is often frowned upon. Others have already referred to the zesjescultuur in previous comments. While there is nothing wrong with scoring a 'six', there is is also nothing wrong with scoring a ten, or straights A's as they call it in the US.
Doe maar gewoon
Dan ben je al gek genoeg.
_just act normal, makes you look crazy already ;)_
I don't think the don't stand out, but blend in represents the Dutch culture well. Compared to the rest of Europe, dutch people do have more identity and are definitely not afraid to speak their mind. I think being your best self and work to live is a better representation of what it is to be Dutch.
I don’t agree that “doe normaal is not to stand out, it is more like don’t flaunt, do not be arrogant, do not show off. That is what it entails. Because if you have ever been to the netherlands, people can be what they want to be , even if it is not your thing.
As a sociologist we once had a class comparing educational systems from different countries. In my opinion these say a lot about what a people value in life. Main point of divergence was that in Dutch high schools the level of education was comparably high, especially in STEM subjects, wheras in America there was much more emphasis on self presentation, communication skills and self realisation in that social aspect. Dutch calvinistic induced culture emphasizes working hard, so try to crack your brain on the edge of its capacity with the recognition that difference in mental capability exists. No one should be left out and the less intelligent students in class should be approached, cheered, challanged and praised at their level, where smarter students should get more difficult tasks to wrap their heads around at he same time, apl within the bandwidth of the same classroom mind you. At least that is what you get thaught during your teacher education and internship. What is important is that as a student you get taught to show your effort in the face of obstacles and that you learn to speak up without shame when you don’t get it. The teacher is in charge of creating and maintaining a safe learning environment to facilitate that. Becoming a good teacher is very hard and I tried and flunked at it. Sometimes shear effort isn't enough and it is very important to recognise and admit when you are in over your head. You own that responsibility to yourself and others. ❤
I follow, but usually don't comment. I think your "growth" versus "achievement" distinction is great. It comes with lots of discussions about lots of difficult issues but it is a wonderful POV.
Feedback is golden. It’s free advice on how to improve something. People appreciate it if you listen to their feedback and tell them you’re going to do something with it. At my work we ask the customers a few questions. What went right, what went wrong during your visit. What can we do better? And the amount of tips we got out of that is priceless.
And I recognize something of your story in meetings when you don’t understand immediately what what said or what it means. In my work they use abbreviations. They sometimes use 4 abbreviations in one sentence. And you didn’t understand the first one and 2 minutes later you are still thinking “what do they mean with xyz”? And instead of asking you don’t, because you don’t want to come over as stupid. But since you don’t understand right away what was talked about, you can not contribute anything to the discussion. Some of my colleagues ask right away “what does that mean” or “what does that abreviation mean”. The other explains and you can go on. There are lots of people having trouble in just asking what they meant with this or that. And it’s difficult to change, but once you do, you will notice how more productive a meeting can be.
I once got a -1 on an English idiom test. The teacher took 1 point off for every 3 faults/mistakes and I made 33. I turned out OK, though. 😀
Hahaha, oh wow. So I guess that's the lowest you can score on a test.
@@DutchAmericano I was at the opposite end of the scale..because I was too good at English.During class I was forbidden to answer questions the teacher asked of the class. 'No not you ! Give other people a chance ! You don't make friends if you always know the answer.
I once got a 3,3 for theoretical surveying as a technical subject on higher vocational school (technical college), my lowest grade ever. And I was very embarrassed and angry at myself, because the teacher had warned the whole class for this difficult first exam, that we had to study hard and also that he wouldn’t give a 1,0 for ‘effort’ as the lowest grade, like some other teachers did. And I didn’t get the lowest grade, there was no one with a 5,5 or higher, so no one passed. And there were really some class mates graded below 1,0, with a 0,9, a 0,7 and the lowest, 0,2. Because everyone flunked the whole class had to redo the exam, this was my rescue (or is it salvation?). And I really really studied hard, because the teacher kept the first grade standing and I needed at least a 7,7 to reach a 5,5 average. I got almost a 9 so I was in the clear. The rest of the semester I kept my attention in his class and kept studying hard, which wasn’t easy for me. But I passed the three following exams and ended the year with a 7,9 average, which felt very satisfying.
Ofcourse another "learning point" you took away from that experience was that your teacher was an ass...
@@MusicJunky3
And the teacher needs the whole class to think, and wants to find out who is keeping up, and give random turns. If one person answers all the questions then the rest migh as well take a nap or think about Minecraft.
One of your best videoes, Ava! I think you analyzed and explained the differences between US and Dutch culture well 👍🏾
Thank you for this! We have been here two years. These are the same things we struggle with.
still waiting on that video completely in Dutch. 🙂
agree. Love the videos but how's your Dutch?
What would be the point of that? She gets more viewers with English videos.
Subtitles, just this once.@@brinta2868
@@brinta2868 It would be nice to hear how well she is doing and she can always subtitle the video. Not every video, just once would be nice.
As a dutch man I make a YT video in english so more people than dutch can understand. Want wees nu eerlijk, hoeveel mensen kunnen dit nog lezen als ik nederlands ga lullen en niet meteen een vertaal app moeten gebruiken.
As someone who grew up in the US as "gifted" and graduated HS with a 6.1/4.0 GPA (yes that is correct) and was reprimanded when I DIDN'T score 100% on a test (that I got a 90 without even studying) I really appreciate this. I am learning to not take criticism so personally- but it's slow. I wish I could show this to one of my old managers 😅
As a Dutchman, I watch such videos every now and then to realize that we should not take our daily lives for granted.
Thanks Ava, Sam and Jason.
Thanks for sharing how you have grown over time Eva. It was a while back since your last video but worth the while. You're touching topics that are less tangible but in the end matter in a more essential way. Like this topic.
Please know that it sometimes happens that students get a 10 out of 10. But then really everything was done completely correctly.
As to the 'daring to fail' topic, I looked it up: there is this quote from the author of Dracula, the Irish author Abraham Stoker, which says: "We learn from failure, not from success!”
Finally, myself being native Spanish speaking (Spanish mother and Frisian father) I find it a pity to hear that you totally stopped talking Spanish. That being said I must say that the few times you say something in Dutch, your pronunciation is like that of a native Dutch speaker. Respect! No wonder you studied linguistics.
Dapper dat je zo open kunt zijn, zelfs als Nederlander ben ik niet zo open, maar dat is iets wat ik aan het leren ben. Super leuk kanaal. 👍🏻😄
very interesting. I speak pretty good Spanish and am learning Dutch, but I am very hesitant to try and speak dutch and feel like my partner constantly picks up my mistakes, which makes me feel embarrassed. The Dutch school system feels a little narrow with its streaming and from my partner's perspective
Very recognizable. There cannot be growth without failure. Even though we don't like to fail, we learn more from our failed attempts and less from our successes. Prioritizing growth in life eventually leads to a more balanced and healthy life than prioritizing raw succes or being "perfect".
This is without a doubt the most important video you made so far! Thank you for sharing your perspective on self-improvement!
"You're a genius" comes from a fixed mindset.
I always get "Oh, you're so creative, I wish I was that creative so I could make things like that."
No I am not creative. I just tried and tried and tried, and slowly progressed to finally be able to create this.
Oh, thats funny, later in your video you come to that same conclusion!
growth mindset high-five!
I'd like to add that this growth mindset is not a cultural thing. Many people in the Netherlands are stuck in a fixed mindset.
"A growth mindset", that's a great compliment to the Dutch. Thanks Ava.
As an expat, my favourite city in the Netherlands still remains Utrecht. I do not know if you have done this already, but could you make a video for the non-Utrecht people about the werfkelders in Utrecht? RTV Utrecht made a whole serie about them. I wonder how you experience them, as I guess that does not exist anywhere else in this form.
I binged that series last week. It's amazing!
In denmark we all openly talk about whenever something is hard or when we struggle. It's really nice.
12:43 You'll see it quite often in practice actually. Depending on the subject and the nature of tests given there, but for example at school I often got a 10 in "exact" sciences and even had a 10 as final grade for maths (or one of the modules the whole subject was divided into).
Shocked at you feeling like everything having to come naturally during an effing *PhD*! The hardest thing ever, where everybody needs to do long hard thinking! I'm sad for your former self. Glad you made it out of that mindset 😊.
Also, I teach at a Dutch university and gave someone a 9.9 on an exam with some open questions the other day! I was a bit shocked myself 😅. And last year I had the honour to give someone a 9.5 on their thesis for the first time. It was amazing - the 'imperfections' were basically in the student having needed some feedback on statistics.
I think the most prevalent attitude at a Dutch school is "I have a six, so I passed, yay, free time".
As a teacher in the Netherlands, I can say this is gladly mostly not true!
@@balaenopteramusculus I agree. But there are students who put so much effort in learning just enough, that with the same effort studying they could have scored better. 😊
@@jannetteberends8730 I think you better read back your comment. Same effort = scored better? How does that work?
@@balaenopteramusculus I mean, the zesjes cultuur is (afaik) still alive and kicking
Everything above a 5.5 is just wasted effort. 😂
My dad was the exact opposite, I remember him always in his study when I was a kid. Maybe that's why I hated school. [Grammar corrected] 😉
I finished high school at a low level but learned so much over the years, most Americans I now meet ask me which university education I followed. I think this is the case with many more Dutchies and isn't only due to the school system but also coz in general Europeans are more exposed to matters beyond their horizon.
If you learn something new without any effort whatsoever, then how can you be proud of yourself. If you really, really struggle learning something, and in the end after many intermediate failures you succeed, you wil have such an enormous sense of accomplishment.
Leuke video, dank je voor het compliment. It was interessting to hear that you see our culture like this. Thank you! Nice video.
Great to see you beaming. So happy.
You can explain the Dutch and American way so good that I am still learning and seeing things better . Thanks 4 your great videos!
Well I used to be kind of a genius. At the age of eight I had read through the complete youth library section in our town. For fun, because I liked reading. And that wasn't a problem until people started noticing. At some point I landed in a conversation with the basic school teacher about the role of Odysseus in the Trojan War and that made the rest of my life much more difficult. Because since then I was special.
Yes I think that describes the mindset pretty well. It's not that we don't have to opposite in certain working environments but it's not the norm. I have a new colleague who came from an "afrekencultuur" and goes through your process at our firm. Needs a dudge every now and then but has finally seen the worth of growth over performance and the change in him is wonderful to see. So much happier, daring and better at what he's doing.
I do think you mistyped those geniuses. It's not that they are above certain things in a good/bad kind of sense, it's just that they don't see the point of spending time on things they don't see any value in, even when everyone around them does. They don't see the world as a place to perform and conform but as a candystore where they can go wild. They aren't above it they are simply someplace else altogether. Not because they are rebellious but because the have their own valuesystem they live by. This can coincide with conventional value just as easy as differ and it often does. We just see the differences more easily.
It takes courage to have a learning attitude. Like this friend of mine has. He is not ashamed at all to say he's learning. The result is, he's more sucsesfull in achieving new things then I am, as he's not afraid to make a mistake.
Forget mindset entirely! Fail as much as possible. You’ll grow. Growth comes with failures. Not with success.
Exactly. Experience is what you'll have right after you needed it. Or put differently, when you were born you couldn't even walk, talk or understand your own language. So yeah, you need to learn stuff and so does everybody else.
wonderfully expressed, Ava.
I actually got a 10/10 once in my life, on a small "exam" in highschool. We were tested on our proper use of "ne pas" or the french word for "don't" I think? We had to properly insert the word into 10 sentences. I had no clue about the grammatical rules behind it, so I just tried putting them where they "felt right". Turned out all of them were correct. xD
I can absolutely feel the "genius adore culture" that you mentioned in the U.S. Even though I am Chinese I do think these two countries share a lot of similarities in workplace culture and the judgment of value of a person. I had a semester being an exchange student in Amsterdam, and I also admire and feel great about the Dutch's directness and their attitude about failure and obstacles in their culture. Those make me feel I can deal with problems in a more relaxed way and I don't need to worry if people make good comments about me or my viewpoints just because they have to do.
So true Ava,
part of what you're describing is normal performance anxiety that exists anywhere, it is not cultural. Self doubt, "am I good enough?" Not much different from a young boy fearing to approach a girl he likes because he fears that he will screw up something in his approach.
But yes, in The Netherlands you can discuss with others mistakes that you have made, your failures and even struggles you have at present, admit your wrong doings and it will be viewed as open minded self reflection where as in The US it will be viewed as weakness and self deprivation. I believe it roots in an inherent sense of competition that is part of American culture.
I remember here that after we take the test and the results where in, there was a class where the would go over all the questions and talk about why is that specifiek answer. Or there where was a separate voluntary meeting where student would go to talk about there test. It really helped me a lot.
As an American, I love that style of thinking. Where I make my most money, nearly every time that I've given any feedback whatsoever, it's accompanied by a threat of a significant pay reduction in the future, which is such a toxic way of going about things. And I love the idea that 10 out of 10 is rare. That's a mindset that I wish would take over the U.S. Overall, this idea that making mistakes is okay is so much healthier.
I will say, many exams in the netherlands include about 10% of their points as so called "stretch questions". These are topics you have not learned yet, but might be able to resolve with what you have learned already
As a Dutchie this is very interesting to me because this mindset is what I grew up with and was just so... normal. I can't imagine always striving for the absolute best, which is unachievable and therefore only stressing people out
Hi, Ava... thanks for this video, giving a nice insight into the US psychology. Indeed the Dutch, Europeans more in general, focus on the journey and what they can learn from it.. and failiure gives us the best opportunity to learn. I guess you're picking that train of thought up quite good. The other factor ofcourse is that Europeans percieve life is something to be lived and enjoyed.. and not work your butt off until they burry you.
And please.... keep talking to us ... ❤
I did on minor elements score an 11 in school. But mostly you are right. My parents were both teachers (not great as a kid, but much appreciated in hindsight) and I remember a phrase they used to use (although not literally regrettably, which proves the point) that went something like: "you can do everything perfectly, but the 10....is for the teacher "
When i lived in another country i started thinking in that language. Once i noticed,while having a dream, i was dreaming in that language.
how much of this mindset is actually a cultural difference between US and the Netherlands, and how much is you own personal journey?
Very relevant question!
@@DutchAmericano Good question, no answer.
@@ronaldderooij1774 You are right, but very direct. 😀
So glad to hear you let go of having to excel at the dutch language. Because of that you have become excellent at it. At least for an expat. No pressure. Dutchies can also make mistakes. So keep on growing
Er zijn geen domme vragen
Thanks for this interesting view on life. I love your channel.
I once was late to class. The teacher wasn't happy. He was handing out graded papers for an important test. I then got my result and it was a straight 10. I said, in front of the whole class, that apparently I was there enough of the time. He *really* wasn't happy with that. 🤭
However your result you needed to learn something else. I hope you did meanwhile.
Thank you for sharing this all with us 🌹❤
Well, your Dutch is great! I understood everything you said!
Hello Ava, my daughter was twelve years old when she went to high school. She turned out to be too good for this and after two years switched to pre-university education. She had science subjects such as chemistry, mathematics, physics. She wanted to be an architect. After two years it turned out that it was actually too hard and she decided to go back to high school. She chose biology and languages. The dream of being an architect was over. She graduated and went on to study social science. After a year, she passed her propaedeutic year and quit this study. She switched to studying health sciences. She graduated and took a year off to reflect. She worked as a clerk at the university. She then started a new study and obtained two master's degrees in the field of psychology within two years. She is now 21 years older, has 8 years of work experience and is one of the best in the field of behavioural sciences. I'm glad we live in the Netherlands.
Looking back at my life I only leaned when I failed. I grew as a person and got better. Success never brought me that. Most people I know and who are interesting have failed and concerned. They pushed it beyond breaking and grew. I still learn today, do things that scare me as that makes life so much more fun.
you have good self reflection and good awereness of your surroundings. i hope you do well on yt.
I feel the Dutch mindset can be explained with the Pareto principle. The 80-20 rule where you can achieve 80 percent of the desired result with 20 percent of the effort. While getting to a hundred percent would require 80 procent effort.
Many of my managers used to remind me of this rule usually at the annual employee assessment, but also in the 360 degrees feedback reports. I often wanted to achieve more than the customer and the project required. By using Pareto you can achieve a lot in less time.
Goed zo, jongedame! Het komt helemaal goed met jou. Nu volop aan de gang met Nederlands.
Good observation and well analysed :-)
Ah I come from a similar culture! And, I struggled a lot…I’m grateful to be able to observe another mindset here in the Nl… In my culture, you should study/work very hard but keep it secret and act as if it is effortless but, also without saying indicate that you work/study very hard. So hard that it eats up all your life and gives you no space for yourself and your hobbies. Then, you’re genius. And, you should never ever make a mistake, ask a silly question or fail a class/ assignment etc. Then, it means that you’re a dimwit…like forever now on. Or your mistakes should be punished etc. I see that mind set is evolving and of course not every single person acts like that. However, I could be happier and have less mental struggles with growing up in a place with a different mindset. Now, I try to flourish myself with different perspectives of living :)
There is a difference between being intelligent and being smart.
An intelligent person might not get that, but a smart person will!
Mayonaise remains my patatje.
Ik vind het verschil tussen kennis en wijsheid sterker, maar ik denk dat je hetzelfde bedoelt.
@@daviddevos3518 Nee, ik bedoel echt het verschil tussen intelligentie en slim zijn. Het is niet hetzelfde. Iemand die heel intelligent is kan goed verbanden leggen en in abstractie redeneren. Je kunt het ten dele inzetten om brute force zwakheden te verbergen. Maar het helpt je niet per se in het ondervangen van bv. naïviteit of buiten de kaders denken als dat niet eens in je opkomt. In het kort: intelligentie geeft je gereedschap, maar slimheid maakt dat je het ook zinvol kunt inzetten. Het is heel goed mogelijk om hoogbegaafd te zijn en tegelijk compleet wereldvreemd. Het stereotype bestaat niet voor niets.
@@daviddevos3518 Hoi. Ik had een stukje geschreven over hoe ik echt het verschil bedoel zoals ik het zei. Maar het is automatisch verwijderd. Geen idee waarom maar geen zin om alles weer opnieuw te schrijven. Het is in de comments bijna schier onmogelijk om een zinvolle reply te typen omdat de kans groot is dat het algoritme er iets raars in meent te zien. Zeer jammer. Het is altijd maar de gok of het nog terugkomt. Meestal niet. Ik gebruik een VPN wat schijnbaar de boel nog 10 keer erger maakt. Hopelijk kun je mijn originele reactie binnenkort weer lezen. Gedoe. Op 'newest comments' zoeken ipv 'top comments' helpt soms maar dat betekent dat standaard niemand ze ziet. Goed voor een gezonde dialoog pfff.
@@daviddevos3518 Hoi. Inmiddels zijn twee reacties van mij onzichtbaar gemaakt. Je zult wellicht 'sort by' moeten wijzigen om ze te zien. Gedoe.
In the Netherlands you still see the fixed mindset. Especially with "gifted" (Dutch: hoogbegaafde) kids. Not necessarily tested for it, but many of the kids who get in the bonus groups at school have that mindset. I used to, a lot. And I struggled with a lot of what you mentioned. I do think the kid I coach is being taught about growth mindset elements in het plus group. But when I was young, I just got more advanced work.
I'd go one further on the "growth mindset." (Side note - like that phrase, and totally agree on that!)
From the sounds of it, you do actually have a knack for languages - certainly more than I do - but that doesn't change anything... The "growth mindset" and just speaking/trying regardless of whether they switch back to English etc., applies to all of us regardless of whether we have a knack. I take longer to learn language, I'm slower generally, I can't comprehend speech when there's background noise, etc., etc.... but so what?! The right thing to do is to crack on with it anyway.
I saw all this for anyone watching the video and thinking that the "growth mindset" is easy and fine for someone who has more of a knack for language. I say it applies to all of us, even people like me who learn language extremely slowly, and even still struggles to hear my own native tongue when out with friends in a noisy environment. My kids mock me constantly... which is hilarious and to be encouraged :)
that's because i think learning and almost everything should come from the heart, from what i hear americans love to pressure eachother.
the more you put pressure on something, the less fun something becomes.
As an American I can tell you that Americans think in very black and white terms. Most jobs are sink or swim. There is no room for learning. The people who excel and don't want mistakes. They hate people that are new and need training and only want experience.
I like your honesty geweldig hoe eerlijk je bent. veel geluk in ons mooie land
This thing we have in the USA where people take any criticism as a personal attack is so harmful
i have to say you changed my outlook on life So thank your for that.
When I was in the hospital there was this male nurse who switched from learning as a construction worker to nursing.
Here's a thing to think about, most people here in the Netherlands and the countries around us INTESENSILY mistrust accomplishment without effort.
If you had come to your friends one day suddenly cycling effortlessly, they would have suspected you of lying, cheating and doping. They'd written the accomplishment off and begrudge you for making a fuss about it.
If they'd saw you falling of your bike, every day for a year, but each day managing to fall a little softer, they'd praise you to high heaven to every friend, family member and randomly passing stranger. They'd still be pointing and laughing in your face about falling but that's because they're your friends and they care.
Netjes uitgelegd! 8,5
Nice observation: choose progress, not perfection (or you will always fall short)!
Hi Ava, as always, great video. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
Something has changed in the past 40-50 years, I see. When I was at the Mavo in the 70s, I was the one and only person in my class who would always get 11 (out of 10) for my calculus and geometry tests. Maybe it would've been better for me, if they'd made me work harder by not praising me up that much.
Funnily enough, here in The Netherlands, some 20 or 30 years ago, more or less the opposite used to be said: that, for example, here a past bankruptcy would mark an enterpreneur as a failure, whereas in the US, it would be a sign that that person had valuable experience and had had the opportunity to learn how things actually work.
Happy Valentine's Day, from the Pacific West Coast of Canada.
When a Dutch person does something exceptional, like running very fast in athletics, or singing very well, or whatever, we are always expected to say something like "O yeah, but it was not easy and I had to work hard for it", etc.etc. EVEN if that is not really the case, and it really went effortlessly. In the Netherlands it is OK to excell, but you are expected play downplay your achievements. If you don't do that people will find you arrogant and stuck up.
Admitting and saying out loud you can't do something is really the quickest road to changing it, IMO. As a Dutch person...
The best way to learn (or teach) something, considered difficult, as grownups, is to have a good laugh. I always wanted to learn speed skating. Finally, age 35, I joined a course, meant for homemakers (???). First things we had to learn: yes, being 6’ and standing upright on skates is quite frightening, and no, that is not how it’s done. "Lower your butt". Oke… "It’s called the pooping posture".
Life was so much more relaxed with those words in mind.
And you made it home in one piece - homemaker
Ava I feel like you and I are the same! (granted we are both NYkers, so that) I also took Spanish for 6 yrs! and basically stopped and can barely speak now and never use it. I also got praised for picking up Dutch quickly and then suddenly everything was start and stop/i rested on laurels if you will and now Im back to the beginning almost?! Why are we like this!?
The best video yet !
like the dutch say 'doe maar normaal' and it is normal to make mistakes (just ask a musician how much he/she had to practice) .. making mistakes is part of our life so we should own and learn from them ... and as always, your video's are great!
David Wen has made a video on this subject a while ago, he called it the sixes culture, I like your bit more positive approach to this.
Interesting analysis
The real innate geniuses actually regularly do score 10/10. With comparatively little effort. I’m not one of them, but do know some. Anyways, you’re right about the ability and willingness to change being highly valued in the system. I agree that that’s a great thing.
Excellent very inspiring! There is indeed always room to grow. Although the "never 10" part is not completely true. It depends on the type/level of education/schooling. The higher the level the more tests and exams become open questions or a mix of open and exact'. In these cases you are absolutely right as there are by-design no perfect answers with open questions. But there are test and exams that only have single answer questions. In those cases it absolutely possible to score a perfect 10... I scored a for chemistry finals the 90s ad also language word tests, etc. (as did many others). But those are just a few 10 scores on single answer tests. But over a year you get a mixed of single and open answer tests. So still impossible to score a perfect 10 for a whole year. Which fully fits the always room for improvement / there are no perfect answers philosophy.
I did have 3 nines on my graduation, but there was a simple reason, they never gave a 10 because they started counting at 0 and had only 10 numbers to give.
My girlfriend is doing an NCOI education for adults degree in European Studies and she got a 10 on one of her courses a couple months ago, so it is definitely possible here.
Keep in mind that there are very different places with different values within the Netherlands as well. Especially Amsterdam can be very different than other places.