efficiency adds to beauty and emotional impact. Having spikes and effigies all over the place makes you look less efficient, and therefore less scary, no matter how scary the details are made to be. So I def. agree.
In Twitter's art community, it's gotten to the point where people who do draw armour advertise it as a selling point, due to so many artists actively avoid drawing them.
@@hazeleonius3890yeah. I’m an artist specifically trying to learn how to do it. Make designing DnD characters a little easier. Currently working on a merman who has plate armor made from seashells. Seeing a bunch of big bulky plates and trying to make sense of how it works and how they interact with each other and the body, on top of making a cool unique design…it’s kinda intimidating Most artists start off drawing animals, fantasy creatures, and humans (or humanoids) whose clothing may more resemble modern everyday outfits. We usually start off as 10 year old anime weebs wanting to draw our favorite characters and build our skills from there. It’s easy to know how to draw a t-shirt, we wear em everyday. But things like armor, robots, buildings, vehicles, those are more geometric and technical. They’re not as commonly interacted with in our everyday lives. There’s a lot of shapes and moving parts to keep track of. So some artists get scared out of learning to draw those, and the ones who do end up becoming specialists with a unique skill they can advertise. If you wanna commission a drawing of a mech, you’re gonna want that specific artist who can do that
It is all about a mixture of a good education on the mechanics of the human anatomy and historical knowledge of arms and armour, as well as a good understanding of what the industry wants. Unfortunately, what fans want and what the industry wants to provide or able to provide for their fans is misunderstood. You probably understand more than a lot of people! :)
When I see a movie or game that is set in a historical setting and has fantasy armor, clothing, and weapons. I just can’t get into it. If they can’t take it seriously, how can I?
The thing that bothered me in the video is "Dyeing the leather black would be expensive and rare". I do work a lot with the vegetable leather and I would call that statement totally false. That is because traditional tanners use tannins to tan the leather which highly reacts with anything acid. Like a simple vinegar and iron oxide (rust) will turn the leather midnight black. Only vinegar will turn it grey. Even the iron piece on the wet leather will turn it black because of the reaction between iron and tannins. Anyway, great video!
Why was it something reserved for high status shoes and scabbards in the High Middle Ages then? This predates sumptuary law so it has nothing to do with peasants not being able to wear black, could it be that maintaining a dark black dye was expensive with needing to re-dye the leather?
@@Stormin_Norman_1066 Vinegar and iron oxide bonds to the tannins in the leather so doesn't wear out, so that wouldn't be it. It's possible that they didn't know about this technique, or just that they had no reason to make black leather, but that's just off the top of my head. I'm no historian.
Also a leather worker and came here to say this but you beat me to it. I'd like to add that probably any town with a smithy of any kind probably would be aware of what rust does to leather. The leather used in a forge or workshop for simple things like straps to hold tools or leather aprons or for use as a material would have been exposed to rust. This is not to say that many folks had anything dyed black. Just that it would be easy and far more achievable than almost any other dye process. I think Its more likely that people chose not to dye things black because other time and through wear so many of the things worn would become darker and after enough time, even appear black. I've made leather bracers that after enough years of wear, went from blue to solid black. Also note, yes cattle and pigs are expensive livestock. But you must remember that a cows lifespan is short, even a dairy cow. Every time a cow is intentionally butchered for meat of dies of natural causes. Its hide would be sold to the tanner. Also remember Cows are large, you can make a lot from the full hide of a single cow. So while I don't think leather armor was necessarily a common choice. The availability of the material would be much more than people think. Sorry for the long comment.
Honestly those who care about historical & practice armors like us is still like a minority in the audiences. It may doesn't seem like it, but nowadays most Movie & TV show that doesn't restricted to a local region (because of language barrier, for example) usually has large numbers of people around the world watching it. Lots of viewer are casual people watching with friends & family in there free time, most of them has minimum to no knowledge about the Armors in general, or not very vocal about how Armors worked in Movie, TV show. Therefore the mindset of people who design sily or impractical Armor aren't that different from the majority of viewers, some simply take lots of liberty when creating those costumes too, while the people at the top like director, sponsor, bunissmen, etc ... may not paying as much attention as well. (The same things can goes to Video game & more modern Act industry to) There also how people views the "minority" people who care "too much" about Armors & Historical accuracy, because some of our "bad apple" who couldn't keep calm when talking about this topic ... which is kinda hard for people to taking us seriously -_-
I really hate the Heroes without helmets... there were so many amazing helmets in GoT (The Hound, Loras Tyrell) but suddenly they stopped wearing them! That makes me angry 😂
You got that right. Unfortunately, armour doesn't have a play in GoT. Its only purpose is a costume and to look cool. One of the many non-sensical martial subjects of the GoT tv series.
It's a shame, I personally kinda like helmets with closed visors and stuff like that. Like Master Chief, Doom Slayer, various biker dudes with visors you can't see through, character designs with gas masks... Idk. I think it looks really cool. Especially when the character is in a combat role and while he/she wears that helmet they turn into machines of war or something. And I get the same vibe with medieval plate armor. Having to fight a guy covered in steel and you can't see any emotions because his face is covered must have been very scary (although a lot of heavily armored fighters opened or even removed their visors for fighting on foot).
Often the decision to not give the heroes helmets is made to allow the viewer to see the face (there are enough open faced helmets in my opinion to negate that argument) and to keep the hero recognisable (there are helmet decorations, painted Shields etc. that would do that job better in my opinion). Also fantasy armour often intends to shape the characters silhouette to better fit the modern image of how heroes have to look like (like broader shoulders) and to make them more recognisable.
More like they pay for the actors and want their faces to be seen so they can get losta mons by lotsa people who like said actor Plus if its a famous or arguably a female, not sexist i like female warriors *in functional armor*
The comparison he makes is still not very good. Second choice after a shield being a helmet is because the shield is your body armour. The next thing exposed is your head. So in the same way that a shield comes before the helmet, so does body armour.
@@viktoriyaserebryakov2755for much of history, if people owned only a single piece of armor, it was a helmet. Torso protection came second. Even after shields fell out of common use, the head was properly armored before anything else.
Assassins creed Valhalla did an excellent job of demonstrating what it looks like when you don’t care at all about history, armor, clothing, and weapons. They made a Viking game, without any Vikings in it. There was a Roman centurion, and two handed swords. I guess that what they think 9th century Scandinavians were?
great video and lovely artwork. the points on leather armour isnt quite right. in the 13th-14th century leather armour is very common in images and literature amongst the lower and upper classes. these peices range from limb to torso protection and in cases like the cuirrie (leather breast and back plate) they appear to be pretty much unanimous alot of the time
I disagree on the idea of wearing a thick gambeson under mail. Common idea, but not much evidence for it. If thick textile armor is worn in combination with mail it was usually worn on top of the mail, at least according to the depictions I know. For various reasons. Having a thick layer of textile under your mail would mean you need more material for the mail armor, making it more expensive and heavier. The mail would also compress the textile armor, and compressed textiles like that will make you less flexible and you move stiffer. I already experience that when I wear a sweater and a jacket together for example. Especially high medieval knights probably didn't wear any thicker textile armor with their mail armor. Yes, wearing some thick gambeson underneath it would've protected them better, but let's remember that in that time the shield was the primary defensive barrier. Mail was just the last line of defense. It wasn't supposed to tank hits, it was just supposed to turn a lethal hit into something you could survive. And it seems like those knights were not ready to sacrifice flexibility and movability for that additional protection. And mail underneath plate started to disappear when the plate armor became good enough to protect the wearer on its own. They would only have smaller mail parts as shown before in the video. But some men-at-arms didn't even bother with that and only wore a light arming doublet. I'm much more in line with the depiction starting at 2:52. The depicted arming doublet is not too thick and the mail pieces are appropriate.
I used to start with a stickman when drawing and layered stuff on 1. Thicken stickman 2. add gambeson and colour it 3. add helmet 4. add coif 5. add mail overcoat and skirt 6. add plate limbs, colour exposed gambeson under mail 7. add cuirass 8. add surcoat 8. add belt and scabbard if there is one After a few pieces you can expedite the process and clean things up
Great video! Quick correction at 4:51 you suggest to avoid black. Black dye was expensive for clothing but it was VERY common for leather. The idea that scabbards need to be brightly coloured is one of those new myths replacing old ones. Red is common, but black even more so, and blue is more rare. That's my subjective feeling based on going through sources (mostly from late 15thC German speaking lands). I can provide plenty of sources to back it up if you're interested. Ideally we'd need a systematic analysis, but that would take forever.
also there is a book called 'the alphabet of galen' a late antiquity encyclopedia of minerals, plants and other substances that mostly details their uses in medicine, whose exact origin is not actually know but was NOT attributed to galen one of those was a material called 'shoemakers black' its described as being a byproduict found in copper mines, in topsoil of copper mines and "a type equal to this is found upon well rusted iron that is then soaked in extremely sour vinegar for a long time and then the tiny dregs that sink to the bottom are dried out." "the best has a sulphurous colour with hues oif green to it. It is excellent for blackening and turns black when sprinkled with water....and quickly blackens wool and other items"
They don't wear helmets for practical reasons. Design isn't just realism. The ability to see the characters face when they emote or more specifically making the eyes visible so it's easier to sympathize with the character quickly may be more important then practically depending on the purpose of the design. You need to consider the purpose of the design and it's readability which are both more important then realism in most cases.
Yes. Realism doesn't equal good design. Realism is a quick and cheap way to good design. If you intend to portray a civilisation as imperialistic and bureaucratic then you just make them look like Romans. It works. Creating your own culture from scratch and portraying that same meaning through custom language, art, architecture is better, but harder.
I quickly discovered this when drawing some fantasy character designs, given that I love history and tried to follow historical armour designs. The result is that every character has helmet sensibly covering most of their faces....but then I realise I can't tell the INDIVIDUALS inside the armours apart. Further research into existing art, especially anime inspired, showed me that being able to not only see the character's face, but ALSO their hair, makes them stand out better as characters. So that's why you see those weird "helmets" that only cover the front of the face (like a Samba mask or something) but leave the top and back of head exposed.
i'm surprised such a well informed video amassed only a few thousand views :( That aside, thank you for the information. It's going to help me a lot on my designs!
I agree with this but I must say that what we have in these fantasy movies, videogames etc. I don't know how to explain this but think about it like art, you have the more realistic depictions of the real world but then you also have stylized, more exaggerated depictions of certain things, but they are still 2 ways of doing art, something along those lines. All I'm saying is that believable, more "realistic" armor should not straight up replace all of these stylized armor in fantasy, they can exist side by side. edit: dont mind the grammar, its not my strongsuit
Thank you so much for spreading the word of functional armor in art! I personally try my hardest to design armor with functionality in mind despite being fantasy themed, and it's awesome to hear another artist preach for the same functionality
I know that it's fun to say hey that's not realistic, but the first concern of an artist is to make it look cool. Depending on the setting the balance between aesthetics and realism changes.
Finally somebody talking about the elephant in the room. But i would like to hear you talk about... GIGANTIC, HUGE FANTASY PAULDRONS. Like having a toilette in every shoulder and of course no helmet. In those fantasy games maybe brains are in the shoulders idk. Most common in videogames (best example is WoW).
Hello, mr. Mcsweeney! You are the beacon of hope for all the designers and concept artists that can bring in some consistency into armor drawing. Now do you plan to issue a video concerning armor designs in video games like in Skyrim for example or Lord of the rings?
OH MY GOD THANK YOU!!! I am making an illustrated book for my art diploma but had no idea where to start with choosing armours for specific characters and stylizing them in a way that would still make sense, the logical hierarchy and other stuff will be so useful!
I find it interesting that character designers love to drop the helmet from a suit of armor the first chance they get when designing a suit of armor, when doing that is forfeiting so much creative potential. Helmets came in so many different styles, even within individual subsets of helmet, within different time periods. Character designers could be coming up with such cool designs for helmets for their characters in battle, then expose their faces in scenes outside of battle. It's a failure of imagination really. The type of helmet you wore into battle said a lot about your station in society, and about you as a person. I think even if you are doing fantasy, it's definitely important to keep your designs as close as you can to a single historical context. It drives me nuts when you find a Gladius and a Longsword in the same game, or when games just use the whole of technological advancement from the stone age to the iron age just to denote quality levels, when it was far more complicated than that, and makes no sense to have thousands of years of progress in 1 person's lifetime. It just makes sense to have your technology set to a reletive time frame, like "What technological level is this society at? Have they figured out carbon steel? Has gunpowder been discovered yet? etc." Also, if you are designing an adventurer, plan in terms if clothing it would actually be practical to travel in. Like if your knight is gonna be doing a lot of walking, ditch the sabatons, and the cuisses. The suits of armor you see in museums are usually the full suit as it was constructed in it's heaviest possible configuration, and usually it was worn like this for short periods of time or for periods of inactivity like at tournaments for show. If you talk to soldiers, you know the kit you are supposed to wear vs the kit you actually wear are two different things. Concessions for comfort happen, but it takes research to know which pieces of armor might get ditched or worn differently to make a unique look. Talk to reenactors and jousters, they'll tell you what pieces of armor are most to least comfortable in different conditions. Especially the pieces they can't easily take off themselves, as knights usually got dressed with the help of a squire or servant, so not all of that armor can be put on or taken off alone. Also, knights didn't always wear their armor, so if you are designing a knight, design a soft kit for them when they are out of their armor.
It's a bit unclear what the linothorax was made of, because of the fact that there are no archaeological finds. There are hundreds of depictions of it in art though. It could be leather and it could be layers of linen glued together. It was probably a bit of both depending on what was available at the time. Both hardened leather and linen are pretty effective armour.
What I would like to see in games is a heat status effect when the player is wearing metal Armour and being exposed to constant attacks based around heat such as fire.. there is the frostbite but i rarely see "overheat". The thicker and heavier ,the more devastating this heat status could become The effect of the heat could for example increase the cost of stamina to execute an action and having a small drop of hp during some times as to emulate a cooldown of the Armour.. I feel like elden ring would have benefits from that
I did medieval re-enactment in my youth. Had full suit of plate armor with a full faced helm, so was completely enclosed while fighting. Did a number of battles at an event where the temperature reached 105 degrees F. It was hot yes, if I hadn't kept hydrated I could have suffered heat stroke. My gambeson was literally soaked with my sweat. The thing is, my body temperature being emitted from my exertions was trapped by the gambeson that most of the heat from the sun hitting my armor could not fully penetrate. I felt miserably hot wearing my armor, but if I laid my bare hand on my cuirass, it felt like I had placed my hand on a cast iron skillet that was on the stove. The gambeson and the air space between the armor and gambeson created an insulation that kept me from truly overheating.
What do you think about a suit of armor with special tweaks of technology in it, could it be possible for example to keep your body cool inside with some kind of ventilation system? Could it fit inside?
Other than no helmet, my pet peeve is spikes. Especially spikes of clipping through the neck, and head when you raise your arms. Can we do something about those, spikes that stab me in the unprotected face, every time I do this? I kinda want to use 2 handed weapons, overhand, and armor is supposed to keep you from being wounded. Lose all the spikes.
Men: always almost naked or at least has some part very revealing. Women: full coverage Anything in between or outside, I dunno, but those are tge rules O flow⚡⚡
Helmets are important, sure. But they have some very negative impacts on humans. One, vision. Two, hearing, and three, removal of heat. I cannot remember specific references, but afaik, even modern soldiers often hate using helmets for these reasons. To make it clear. Hearing and vision are important to get the "situational awareness" that allow people to react properly and position against threats that limits exposing weak spots. Also making plans on the fly, increasing their survival odds. Heat dispersion is done through the head on humans. And heat dispersion has a massive impact on longevity of the fighter.
Good job! But I will point one thing "distribute weight evenly in helmets" - Weight of helmets wasn't even symetrical, left side was thicker in many examples also they were a way thicker on front side. It's not clearly visible from outside, so doesn't matter in picture if it's not additional plate of metal.
Oh yes, you're right. I should have probably pointed that out. Same for cuirasses, the domed area of the front plate is way thicker than areas of the backplate. Also, I've seen a lot of ancient Greek helmets where the back part is nearly missing because it was much thinner than the front, especially the nose ridge. As a whole, a well-tailored harness helps with that weight distribution.
im honestly quite fed up with the general consensus that inaccuracy is acceptable in media, certainly when it comes to historical pieces. there is just no excuse to make up such ridiculous fantasy things when a 6 and a half minute video can almost completely amend the issues with armor design in fantasy. when your job as an armorer on the set of a show is to make pretty costumes and you make something as horrendous as the shit in The Last Kingdom and History Channel's Vikings you should be criticized and laughed off the set. what precedent does it set for the depiction of a historical setting if you get something so basic as the things they would wear wrong? using a 16th century italian helmet in the costume of a 9th century english fyrdman is millions times more ridiculous than putting a modern ballistic helmet in the costume of a concord minuteman. as a hobbyist its not hard, so professionally there just isnt an excuse.
I love this kind of stuff. I always felt that the practical, realistic armours looked cooler in general than the standard ostentatious fantasy stuff.
I like a happy medium, not fully realistic but still functional
efficiency adds to beauty and emotional impact. Having spikes and effigies all over the place makes you look less efficient, and therefore less scary, no matter how scary the details are made to be. So I def. agree.
Depends, I think dysfunctional, form over function armor can be good if it fits the character and actually says something about them.
Agreed.
Man i was reseraching fantasy armors for my story and the more i looked into it, the more i thought the same.
2:34 Damn, that knight in gothic armour looks amazing!
Thanks! It's based on Maximilian I's gothic armour. I did miss out on the extra shoulder reinforcing plates though.
In Twitter's art community, it's gotten to the point where people who do draw armour advertise it as a selling point, due to so many artists actively avoid drawing them.
Wait,really?
@@hazeleonius3890yeah. I’m an artist specifically trying to learn how to do it. Make designing DnD characters a little easier. Currently working on a merman who has plate armor made from seashells.
Seeing a bunch of big bulky plates and trying to make sense of how it works and how they interact with each other and the body, on top of making a cool unique design…it’s kinda intimidating
Most artists start off drawing animals, fantasy creatures, and humans (or humanoids) whose clothing may more resemble modern everyday outfits. We usually start off as 10 year old anime weebs wanting to draw our favorite characters and build our skills from there. It’s easy to know how to draw a t-shirt, we wear em everyday. But things like armor, robots, buildings, vehicles, those are more geometric and technical. They’re not as commonly interacted with in our everyday lives. There’s a lot of shapes and moving parts to keep track of. So some artists get scared out of learning to draw those, and the ones who do end up becoming specialists with a unique skill they can advertise. If you wanna commission a drawing of a mech, you’re gonna want that specific artist who can do that
I work in film and TV making props and armour and I couldn't fault anything you have said. I wish more designers would see this
It is all about a mixture of a good education on the mechanics of the human anatomy and historical knowledge of arms and armour, as well as a good understanding of what the industry wants. Unfortunately, what fans want and what the industry wants to provide or able to provide for their fans is misunderstood. You probably understand more than a lot of people! :)
When I see a movie or game that is set in a historical setting and has fantasy armor, clothing, and weapons. I just can’t get into it. If they can’t take it seriously, how can I?
Making Vikings look like modern bikers or Victorian opera singers is just lazy and offensive.
You are extremely underrated. Hope you'll get the attention you deserve.
Thanks! Its all about hard work :)
The thing that bothered me in the video is "Dyeing the leather black would be expensive and rare". I do work a lot with the vegetable leather and I would call that statement totally false. That is because traditional tanners use tannins to tan the leather which highly reacts with anything acid. Like a simple vinegar and iron oxide (rust) will turn the leather midnight black. Only vinegar will turn it grey. Even the iron piece on the wet leather will turn it black because of the reaction between iron and tannins. Anyway, great video!
Yep you're totally right. I should have probably cut the 'black leather' point out of the script. Thanks for pointing that out!! :)
Why was it something reserved for high status shoes and scabbards in the High Middle Ages then? This predates sumptuary law so it has nothing to do with peasants not being able to wear black, could it be that maintaining a dark black dye was expensive with needing to re-dye the leather?
@@Stormin_Norman_1066 Vinegar and iron oxide bonds to the tannins in the leather so doesn't wear out, so that wouldn't be it. It's possible that they didn't know about this technique, or just that they had no reason to make black leather, but that's just off the top of my head. I'm no historian.
Also a leather worker and came here to say this but you beat me to it.
I'd like to add that probably any town with a smithy of any kind probably would be aware of what rust does to leather. The leather used in a forge or workshop for simple things like straps to hold tools or leather aprons or for use as a material would have been exposed to rust.
This is not to say that many folks had anything dyed black. Just that it would be easy and far more achievable than almost any other dye process. I think Its more likely that people chose not to dye things black because other time and through wear so many of the things worn would become darker and after enough time, even appear black. I've made leather bracers that after enough years of wear, went from blue to solid black.
Also note, yes cattle and pigs are expensive livestock. But you must remember that a cows lifespan is short, even a dairy cow. Every time a cow is intentionally butchered for meat of dies of natural causes. Its hide would be sold to the tanner. Also remember Cows are large, you can make a lot from the full hide of a single cow.
So while I don't think leather armor was necessarily a common choice. The availability of the material would be much more than people think.
Sorry for the long comment.
@@wilhelmpotgieter1328when it comes to cloth in particular, black was expensive since it had to be dyed repeatedly to get a proper black color.
Helmets are great, nothing is sexier than an armet
Or various forms of bascinets, with or even without visors.
an issue with this for film, is that they kind of KNOW this already,and dont especially care, or believe that the public wont especially care
Yeah, its a big problem, and you're right, they don't care unless it looks 'cool', or follows current trends.
Honestly those who care about historical & practice armors like us is still like a minority in the audiences. It may doesn't seem like it, but nowadays most Movie & TV show that doesn't restricted to a local region (because of language barrier, for example) usually has large numbers of people around the world watching it. Lots of viewer are casual people watching with friends & family in there free time, most of them has minimum to no knowledge about the Armors in general, or not very vocal about how Armors worked in Movie, TV show. Therefore the mindset of people who design sily or impractical Armor aren't that different from the majority of viewers, some simply take lots of liberty when creating those costumes too, while the people at the top like director, sponsor, bunissmen, etc ... may not paying as much attention as well.
(The same things can goes to Video game & more modern Act industry to)
There also how people views the "minority" people who care "too much" about Armors & Historical accuracy, because some of our "bad apple" who couldn't keep calm when talking about this topic ... which is kinda hard for people to taking us seriously -_-
I really hate the Heroes without helmets... there were so many amazing helmets in GoT (The Hound, Loras Tyrell) but suddenly they stopped wearing them! That makes me angry 😂
You got that right. Unfortunately, armour doesn't have a play in GoT. Its only purpose is a costume and to look cool. One of the many non-sensical martial subjects of the GoT tv series.
Yeh. I guess the idea is that they paid for an actors face, so they wanted to show it but it is of course stupid.
It's a shame, I personally kinda like helmets with closed visors and stuff like that. Like Master Chief, Doom Slayer, various biker dudes with visors you can't see through, character designs with gas masks... Idk. I think it looks really cool. Especially when the character is in a combat role and while he/she wears that helmet they turn into machines of war or something. And I get the same vibe with medieval plate armor. Having to fight a guy covered in steel and you can't see any emotions because his face is covered must have been very scary (although a lot of heavily armored fighters opened or even removed their visors for fighting on foot).
Often the decision to not give the heroes helmets is made to allow the viewer to see the face (there are enough open faced helmets in my opinion to negate that argument) and to keep the hero recognisable (there are helmet decorations, painted Shields etc. that would do that job better in my opinion). Also fantasy armour often intends to shape the characters silhouette to better fit the modern image of how heroes have to look like (like broader shoulders) and to make them more recognisable.
More like they pay for the actors and want their faces to be seen so they can get losta mons by lotsa people who like said actor
Plus if its a famous or arguably a female, not sexist i like female warriors *in functional armor*
The comparison he makes is still not very good. Second choice after a shield being a helmet is because the shield is your body armour. The next thing exposed is your head. So in the same way that a shield comes before the helmet, so does body armour.
@@viktoriyaserebryakov2755for much of history, if people owned only a single piece of armor, it was a helmet. Torso protection came second. Even after shields fell out of common use, the head was properly armored before anything else.
Assassins creed Valhalla did an excellent job of demonstrating what it looks like when you don’t care at all about history, armor, clothing, and weapons. They made a Viking game, without any Vikings in it. There was a Roman centurion, and two handed swords. I guess that what they think 9th century Scandinavians were?
great video and lovely artwork. the points on leather armour isnt quite right. in the 13th-14th century leather armour is very common in images and literature amongst the lower and upper classes. these peices range from limb to torso protection and in cases like the cuirrie (leather breast and back plate) they appear to be pretty much unanimous alot of the time
There was also the leather buff coat, which was a piece of early modern kit. Basically a thick leather coat, often worn under a breast plate.
I disagree on the idea of wearing a thick gambeson under mail. Common idea, but not much evidence for it. If thick textile armor is worn in combination with mail it was usually worn on top of the mail, at least according to the depictions I know. For various reasons. Having a thick layer of textile under your mail would mean you need more material for the mail armor, making it more expensive and heavier. The mail would also compress the textile armor, and compressed textiles like that will make you less flexible and you move stiffer. I already experience that when I wear a sweater and a jacket together for example. Especially high medieval knights probably didn't wear any thicker textile armor with their mail armor. Yes, wearing some thick gambeson underneath it would've protected them better, but let's remember that in that time the shield was the primary defensive barrier. Mail was just the last line of defense. It wasn't supposed to tank hits, it was just supposed to turn a lethal hit into something you could survive. And it seems like those knights were not ready to sacrifice flexibility and movability for that additional protection.
And mail underneath plate started to disappear when the plate armor became good enough to protect the wearer on its own. They would only have smaller mail parts as shown before in the video. But some men-at-arms didn't even bother with that and only wore a light arming doublet. I'm much more in line with the depiction starting at 2:52. The depicted arming doublet is not too thick and the mail pieces are appropriate.
I used to start with a stickman when drawing and layered stuff on
1. Thicken stickman
2. add gambeson and colour it
3. add helmet
4. add coif
5. add mail overcoat and skirt
6. add plate limbs, colour exposed gambeson under mail
7. add cuirass
8. add surcoat
8. add belt and scabbard if there is one
After a few pieces you can expedite the process and clean things up
Its quick and short, perfect for people with shorter attention span. Thank you sir!
Great video! Quick correction at 4:51 you suggest to avoid black. Black dye was expensive for clothing but it was VERY common for leather. The idea that scabbards need to be brightly coloured is one of those new myths replacing old ones. Red is common, but black even more so, and blue is more rare.
That's my subjective feeling based on going through sources (mostly from late 15thC German speaking lands). I can provide plenty of sources to back it up if you're interested. Ideally we'd need a systematic analysis, but that would take forever.
I totally agree with you, as a leatherworker I would say the black was the far cheapest color of them all.
also there is a book called 'the alphabet of galen' a late antiquity encyclopedia of minerals, plants and other substances that mostly details their uses in medicine, whose exact origin is not actually know but was NOT attributed to galen
one of those was a material called 'shoemakers black' its described as being a byproduict found in copper mines, in topsoil of copper mines
and
"a type equal to this is found upon well rusted iron that is then soaked in extremely sour vinegar for a long time and then the tiny dregs that sink to the bottom are dried out."
"the best has a sulphurous colour with hues oif green to it. It is excellent for blackening and turns black when sprinkled with water....and quickly blackens wool and other items"
Yep! Aleksander Majcen and you are right. Thanks for pointing that out. I will need to rectify this in a future video somewhere.
They don't wear helmets for practical reasons.
Design isn't just realism.
The ability to see the characters face when they emote or more specifically making the eyes visible so it's easier to sympathize with the character quickly may be more important then practically depending on the purpose of the design.
You need to consider the purpose of the design and it's readability which are both more important then realism in most cases.
Yes. Realism doesn't equal good design. Realism is a quick and cheap way to good design. If you intend to portray a civilisation as imperialistic and bureaucratic then you just make them look like Romans. It works. Creating your own culture from scratch and portraying that same meaning through custom language, art, architecture is better, but harder.
I quickly discovered this when drawing some fantasy character designs, given that I love history and tried to follow historical armour designs. The result is that every character has helmet sensibly covering most of their faces....but then I realise I can't tell the INDIVIDUALS inside the armours apart. Further research into existing art, especially anime inspired, showed me that being able to not only see the character's face, but ALSO their hair, makes them stand out better as characters. So that's why you see those weird "helmets" that only cover the front of the face (like a Samba mask or something) but leave the top and back of head exposed.
I just want to draw my silly little impractical armour and add a million unnecessary flourishes.
i'm surprised such a well informed video amassed only a few thousand views :(
That aside, thank you for the information. It's going to help me a lot on my designs!
a good compromise would be ornamental armor/weapons irl.They are still wearable,adding more fanstastical designs over it would make it more viable.
Great video! You're probably the most underrated RUclipsr I know. Love your stuff! Keep going!
Thanks! :) more content to come in the future
Thanks for the tips Dr. Freeman
I agree with this but I must say that what we have in these fantasy movies, videogames etc. I don't know how to explain this but think about it like art, you have the more realistic depictions of the real world but then you also have stylized, more exaggerated depictions of certain things, but they are still 2 ways of doing art, something along those lines. All I'm saying is that believable, more "realistic" armor should not straight up replace all of these stylized armor in fantasy, they can exist side by side.
edit: dont mind the grammar, its not my strongsuit
Thank you so much for spreading the word of functional armor in art! I personally try my hardest to design armor with functionality in mind despite being fantasy themed, and it's awesome to hear another artist preach for the same functionality
Thank you for providing relevant info when you share pictures by the way.
Thanks for this! Currently designing armour for my Knight and she needs some pretty heavy stuff.
I know that it's fun to say hey that's not realistic, but the first concern of an artist is to make it look cool. Depending on the setting the balance between aesthetics and realism changes.
Nah… The cooler, the better.
I don't have space for a helmet with these 30kg gorgeous shoulders with burning forges inside.
Finally somebody talking about the elephant in the room. But i would like to hear you talk about...
GIGANTIC, HUGE FANTASY PAULDRONS. Like having a toilette in every shoulder and of course no helmet. In those fantasy games maybe brains are in the shoulders idk.
Most common in videogames (best example is WoW).
WoW is not meant to be realistic. There is your answer. It is high fantasy.
That said - there ARE realistic looking options available.
Hello, mr. Mcsweeney! You are the beacon of hope for all the designers and concept artists that can bring in some consistency into armor drawing. Now do you plan to issue a video concerning armor designs in video games like in Skyrim for example or Lord of the rings?
OH MY GOD THANK YOU!!! I am making an illustrated book for my art diploma but had no idea where to start with choosing armours for specific characters and stylizing them in a way that would still make sense, the logical hierarchy and other stuff will be so useful!
Very informative video great job.
Thanks! :)
WTF this is some high quality shit
I find it interesting that character designers love to drop the helmet from a suit of armor the first chance they get when designing a suit of armor, when doing that is forfeiting so much creative potential.
Helmets came in so many different styles, even within individual subsets of helmet, within different time periods. Character designers could be coming up with such cool designs for helmets for their characters in battle, then expose their faces in scenes outside of battle. It's a failure of imagination really. The type of helmet you wore into battle said a lot about your station in society, and about you as a person.
I think even if you are doing fantasy, it's definitely important to keep your designs as close as you can to a single historical context. It drives me nuts when you find a Gladius and a Longsword in the same game, or when games just use the whole of technological advancement from the stone age to the iron age just to denote quality levels, when it was far more complicated than that, and makes no sense to have thousands of years of progress in 1 person's lifetime. It just makes sense to have your technology set to a reletive time frame, like "What technological level is this society at? Have they figured out carbon steel? Has gunpowder been discovered yet? etc."
Also, if you are designing an adventurer, plan in terms if clothing it would actually be practical to travel in. Like if your knight is gonna be doing a lot of walking, ditch the sabatons, and the cuisses. The suits of armor you see in museums are usually the full suit as it was constructed in it's heaviest possible configuration, and usually it was worn like this for short periods of time or for periods of inactivity like at tournaments for show. If you talk to soldiers, you know the kit you are supposed to wear vs the kit you actually wear are two different things. Concessions for comfort happen, but it takes research to know which pieces of armor might get ditched or worn differently to make a unique look. Talk to reenactors and jousters, they'll tell you what pieces of armor are most to least comfortable in different conditions. Especially the pieces they can't easily take off themselves, as knights usually got dressed with the help of a squire or servant, so not all of that armor can be put on or taken off alone.
Also, knights didn't always wear their armor, so if you are designing a knight, design a soft kit for them when they are out of their armor.
1:55 idk why but thr later cornithian helmet looks similar to something.
High quality contents~ lucky to discover you
You gained a permanent fan!
Me, making my next Pathfinder character: 📝
what about one size fits all mass produced armour
Great man I love drawing armor
Underrated channel holy crud
doing gods work out here
amazing information
damn this video is excellent!!!! only 850 views... *Criminal!*
Just the other day I was learning about Veg Tan leather and the Tandy website said their leather comes mostly from deer.
0:08 YES
A point on leather: the Ancient Greek "linothoraxes" were most likely historically made of stiff leather, rather than linen.
It's a bit unclear what the linothorax was made of, because of the fact that there are no archaeological finds. There are hundreds of depictions of it in art though. It could be leather and it could be layers of linen glued together. It was probably a bit of both depending on what was available at the time. Both hardened leather and linen are pretty effective armour.
@@robbiemcsweeney1318 There is absolutely no proof of glued linen armour being used by the greeks. Linothoraxes were likely quilted or twined
Works great!
What I would like to see in games is a heat status effect when the player is wearing metal Armour and being exposed to constant attacks based around heat such as fire..
there is the frostbite but i rarely see "overheat".
The thicker and heavier ,the more devastating this heat status could become The effect of the heat could for example increase the cost of stamina to execute an action and having a small drop of hp during some times as to emulate a cooldown of the Armour..
I feel like elden ring would have benefits from that
I did medieval re-enactment in my youth. Had full suit of plate armor with a full faced helm, so was completely enclosed while fighting. Did a number of battles at an event where the temperature reached 105 degrees F.
It was hot yes, if I hadn't kept hydrated I could have suffered heat stroke. My gambeson was literally soaked with my sweat. The thing is, my body temperature being emitted from my exertions was trapped by the gambeson that most of the heat from the sun hitting my armor could not fully penetrate. I felt miserably hot wearing my armor, but if I laid my bare hand on my cuirass, it felt like I had placed my hand on a cast iron skillet that was on the stove.
The gambeson and the air space between the armor and gambeson created an insulation that kept me from truly overheating.
That would severely damage the freedom of Elden Ring when it comes to making builds
What do you think about a suit of armor with special tweaks of technology in it, could it be possible for example to keep your body cool inside with some kind of ventilation system? Could it fit inside?
Other than no helmet, my pet peeve is spikes. Especially spikes of clipping through the neck, and head when you raise your arms. Can we do something about those, spikes that stab me in the unprotected face, every time I do this? I kinda want to use 2 handed weapons, overhand, and armor is supposed to keep you from being wounded. Lose all the spikes.
oh i found i hidden channel, a good find I would say
Thanks!
Is is just me or do corinthian helmets look kind of phalic?
You earned a sub sir 👍🏻
Men: always almost naked or at least has some part very revealing.
Women: full coverage
Anything in between or outside, I dunno, but those are tge rules O flow⚡⚡
Awesome! Thank you
Helmets are important, sure. But they have some very negative impacts on humans. One, vision. Two, hearing, and three, removal of heat. I cannot remember specific references, but afaik, even modern soldiers often hate using helmets for these reasons.
To make it clear. Hearing and vision are important to get the "situational awareness" that allow people to react properly and position against threats that limits exposing weak spots. Also making plans on the fly, increasing their survival odds.
Heat dispersion is done through the head on humans. And heat dispersion has a massive impact on longevity of the fighter.
Yes
I'm curious if you ever read this, what are your thoughts on the Mycenean armor of Troy Total War?
Good job! But I will point one thing "distribute weight evenly in helmets" - Weight of helmets wasn't even symetrical, left side was thicker in many examples also they were a way thicker on front side. It's not clearly visible from outside, so doesn't matter in picture if it's not additional plate of metal.
Oh yes, you're right. I should have probably pointed that out. Same for cuirasses, the domed area of the front plate is way thicker than areas of the backplate. Also, I've seen a lot of ancient Greek helmets where the back part is nearly missing because it was much thinner than the front, especially the nose ridge. As a whole, a well-tailored harness helps with that weight distribution.
im honestly quite fed up with the general consensus that inaccuracy is acceptable in media, certainly when it comes to historical pieces. there is just no excuse to make up such ridiculous fantasy things when a 6 and a half minute video can almost completely amend the issues with armor design in fantasy. when your job as an armorer on the set of a show is to make pretty costumes and you make something as horrendous as the shit in The Last Kingdom and History Channel's Vikings you should be criticized and laughed off the set. what precedent does it set for the depiction of a historical setting if you get something so basic as the things they would wear wrong? using a 16th century italian helmet in the costume of a 9th century english fyrdman is millions times more ridiculous than putting a modern ballistic helmet in the costume of a concord minuteman. as a hobbyist its not hard, so professionally there just isnt an excuse.
Are you greek
I accidentally disliked this video and didn’t notice until months later. I feel bad lol.
Nerd