Honestly, I think this encapsulates why the Bleak Cabal have always been my favorite. They're the most commonly good-aligned out of all the factions, despite their name and outlook, which is always fun, but I also just like their whole "Life sucks and nothing matters, which means it's OUR job to make it suck LESS while we're here" ideals. There's something that's always been oddly comforting about that.
@simonbehrendt-n4w Partly. Positive Nihilism is mature, freeing & prescribes unlimited growth hindered only by one's perceptions. Negative Nihilism immature, self defeating & anti-survival to the point of being a genuine threat to thd continuation of all life. Hence the goddess Shar's petty & vindictive depiction vs primordial & manipulative-by predatory methods-comforting of Baldurs Gate 3.
Xaositects are my favoruite faction. Like your group, my DM had a reoccuring Slaad NPC who referred to the PC's as "puppets", NPC's as "actors" and had come to the mind shattering realisation that the DM was the true source of everything, referring to him as "The One", and hilariously whenever the DM played this character, he would narrate that the Slaad kept arguing with himself, the DM. For example: "Xor'azx seems happy to see you..." (as Xor'azx) "What?! No I'm not, stop putting thoughts in my head!" One of my all-time favourite NPC's from any game I ever played.
Congratulations! That's a game I remember fondly and I barely get a few hours in before getting pulled away again. Multiple times. But I always want to come back. Hope I can finish it too, one day. :)
One fun thing specifically about the Lady of Pain is the idea of worship. With such a very obviously powerful and present figure, you'd figure there would be churches to her and a religion built up. But she actively forbids worship of her. Anyone who has been known to worship her has been found skinned alive. It seems she is quite adamant about being a background figure, even in Sigil.
I won't agree to all you said about factions, but I've seen a lot of people rattling their bone box about this topic, and this is definitely the best video I've seen up to date. You deserve more views man, kudos!
@@magicslinky of course. It actually helped me a lot to enter into the setting after I bought it in 1994. It was basically impossible for me to dm a game in ps until I understood the tone and approach by playing torment.
@@Torile0Actually that's how I feel a lot too. I notice the books will have a lot of fascinating high concept but it's astonishingly difficult to go "Ok...what's an average person's life in Sigil, or Pandemonium, or the City of Brass...and are they all insane?!" It's so alien it's hard to relate to, until something like Planescape shows the intention behind it.
I think Xaositects might be Post-modernists, because they would both be rejecting all narratives and many post-modern characters are aware that they are fictional, a prime example being Deadpool.
@@WadeAllen001 Now that I think about it, that Xaositect member that didn't maintain a consistent personality, may have thoroughly questioned the concept of the self as another narrative we tell ourselves, especially when you consider we also do the same to a much smaller scale with the concept of personas or how we change in personality over time. Or alternatively, they took a Buddhist approach in annihilating the self, or has seen Buddhists do this and questioned why do we need a sense of self at all, and therefore committed ego-death (ego-suicide?).
Some of these factions have bases on other outer planes. Mercy Killers: Acheron (L-N/E) (they also use Avernus, the 1st of the 9 Hells of Bator (LE) as a prison.) Fraternity of Order: Mechanus (L-N) Harmonium: Arcadia (L-N/G) Transcendent Order: Elysium (N-G) Sign of the One: Beastlands (N/C-G) Society of Sensation: Arboria (C-G) Free League: Ysguard (C-N/G) Xaositects: Limbo (C-N) Fated: Pandimonium (C-N/E) Revilutionary Leage: Carceri (N/C-E) Doomguard: Negitive quazielemental planes (ash, dust, salt, and vacuume) Dustmen: Negitive energy plane Belivers of the Source: Astral plane
Well, still in the outlands, the Ather have a base around the spire in the center of the outlands, which Sigil sits on. Why? Becuase not only can Gods not enter that location, neither can their agents or magic.
@@WadeAllen001 I wish you had briefly covered those bases in this video as I'll have forgotten about these organizations by the time I get to the planes. It's just a lot to take in.
_My offering of help was unwelcome. I _*_tried_*_ to set her FREE; Sigil is the CAGE, a City of Doors and Locks, is a prison for her. It must be, mustn't it be? Why else call the city of Sigil 'the Cage?' And who is caged? The Lady! A prison so small for one so great. Unjustness, wrongness, intolerable to torment a woman thusly! I tried to break the Cage, let the Lady go free. Shoo, shoo, o pained woman, let Sigil's ring be broken so you might fly far from its filthy streets and the stupid dabus that dare not speak in words for fear their thoughts would be overheard! Before I could finish, I a-found myself here, and my memories none the better for the trip... much has slipped away, much forgotten, yes it was... is? Was? The dwindling of memory has become a comfort to these old bones. Much have I forgotten... I am fortunate in that I still remember you. ~ Ravel Puzzlewell_
Thank you so much! This was one of the best breakdown videos I have ever seen. It is clear that you put a lot of thought and effort into this video and it shows.
I just found your channel and I have been really enjoying. I did already know this information but I appreciate the relaxed almost matter of fact (or fiction rather) way you present it. Subed.
It depends on what we mean by these sentences I guess. What I meant in saying that maybe there's truth in everything is that all philosophies are potentially partially correct in some way, metaphorically speaking or otherwise. So if you mean "there's truth in that there is no such thing as truth" in a similar way, then perhaps I can get on board. Like, some aspect of the sentence "there is no such thing as truth" is true. But to wholly say that it's true that there is no such thing as truth seems to me to be a logical contradiction (aka an impossibility), whereas the types of things I was saying at the end of this video are things that appear contradictory but can be made coherent with the right understanding. It's like dialetheism, statements can be contradictory in the sense that they are inconsistent, or they can be contradictory in the sense that they are incoherent. Some contradictions can be true (the inconsistent ones), but others can't (the incoherent ones).
@@WadeAllen001 Yes! I meant that some aspect of "there's no such thing as truth" is true. Thanks for your reply, and once again, great work on the video!
2:38 im late but ive been looking into lore lately and ive learned that this head canon is actually supported canonically with the 'Ancient Brethren' of which the lady of pain, and 3 other known entities embody different concepts. the Lady seemingly being neutrality, Ahriman being lawful evil, Jarizian being lawful good and a more mysterious one called the serpent seemingly representing magic as a whole (but it seems to be a chaotic evil entity). These beings seem to be far stronger and more ancient than gods and mostly embody alignments. I wonder if we will ever get more info on them, see any more of them, and how they stack up against overgods TL;DR, your head canon is probably correct, just incomplete as of the moment.
Thanks! I'm currently working on a guide to Baator video. Should be finished sometime in the next two weeks, so hopefully that'll satisfy some of your Planescape cravings.
I've heard a funny explanation for why the Sign of One run the hall of speakers: they have no fear of public speaking because they don't believe anyone else exists.
Reguarding The Lady of Pain being the most powerfull entity in the D&D multiverse: ... Canonically, that would be the Luminous Being, who is thought to be an allegory for the dungeon-master. ... Lady of Pain and P.C.s come close 2nd though. ... The edrich-evil Therisdune is pretty powerful too. The Gods would love to kill him, but he's so deeply rooted in the fabric of reality, that doing so would destroy everything! (allegedly.)
Yeah the last D&D campaign I was playing in featured a slightly homebrewed version of Tharizdun, whom the princes of elemental evil were trying to free and we were trying to keep imprisoned (so the campaign was partly Princes of the Apocalypse, except we were also playing the Pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path, and our campaign led us to Sigil and the Planescape setting. It sounds chaotic when I say it like that). We never met the Luminous Being in that campaign, though it's not over yet and it only got more and more absurd in the power level we were dealing with as we leveled up (as d&d tends to), so we might yet.
I might be late but you shouldnt meet the luminous being. The Lady Of Pain is described as the DMs "No", weve got an all-powerful overgod described as a flying beard with a face(Ao) so putting in a DM-stand-in sounds really...unneccessary to me. Whats the point of the lady and Ao if you bring your self-insert in to settle things? They're good to explain the cosmos shifting,rules changing through editions, homebrew,cataclysms,resets, etc but one of them really is enough for a party's story
"Greetings players, you all leveled up to 4 right? Excellent, so, you see a portal before you to another realm. . . You walk through it? Lol. You brought two characters like I asked, right?" Lol it's a really cool setting though. When your superheroics are simply too much for the mere material plane, toss everything you think you know out the window...in which one of those things you thought you knew was a key, and the window was a portal to who-knows-where!
Not as extreme. Fall-from-Grace from Planescape Torment definitely can differentiate between pleasure and pain, and not trying to find pleasure in pain. And she is a Succubus.
Okay but bruh. That bit of humanity coming up with this fantastic unifying philosophy you imagined at the end there. That future movement of humanity necessarily includes Abhinavagupta and Lalleshwari, who have already lived and died hundreds of years ago. The former rationally explains the philosophy you describe with systemic rigor, and the latter expresses it with a tangible immediacy which was quite famous through late Medieval Kashmir. Time is an illusion, old is new is new is old again perpetually for the first time just like every other whatever, and all are simultaneously owned and based.
absolutely essential. as a new planar DM this is very helpful. I'm more glad than ever that I picked the party to crash land into the sensorium library; now they're being taken care of but pushed to giving copies of their memories of traveling through the universe.
Gotta ask, cause it's just too cool. If there are five primordials, one for each alignment extreme, who are the other four? I assume primus is pure law. Who are the others?
Primus is pure law, The Lady of Pain is pure neutrality, Asmodeus is pure evil, Zaphkiel is pure good, and the Shadowfiend is pure chaos. So the Shadowfiend was the only one entirely made up, and it was an entity with no true form or personality. The Primus pretty much remained unchanged except elevated in power, and Asmodeus and Zaphkiel were changed a bit to make them more pure. But also, if I remember properly, Tharizdun was the original primordial of pure evil, but was so terrible that the universe had to be remade by the other primordials, and when they did that they locked Tharizdun out of it and replaced him with the more manageable Asmodeus.
Yeah that's a good idea. The 5e book merged two factions into one, got rid of one faction, changed the names of two factions, turned one into a minor faction, brought back a nearly extinct faction that was just a sect before, and upgraded another sect into a minor faction, so there's lots to cover.
Interesting how you see law generally as closer alinged to evil and choas generally alinged as good. Guess that feeds into your own bias. if i had to guess you would be more alinged to chaos 😉😉
Since neutrality isn’t a force - it’s just the concordant balance of all 4 alignment forces - if it’s represented by an incarnation, so should logically the other 4 combos (LG, CG, CE, and LE). Obviously Asmodeus automatically puts himself forward as that last one.
@@waitthatsillegal.7552 Glad I could be of service. I intend on making a few more videos about the Planescape setting when I get the time. Don't hold your breath though.
A minor correction; Eastern karma does sometimes have immediate consequences, and other times it doesn't ripen until a future life. The Buddha, for example, distinguished between karma with immediate consequences, karma with indeterminate future consequences, and karma with consequences in a future life.
I made a golden dragonborn, and he's a member of The Harmonium and for as much as I wanted to make him Lawful Evil... I found out that I can't The Harmonium holds several tenets, such as "only use force if necessary and as minimally necessary"... and for as much as I wanted him to be evil, my character is so devoted to The Harmonium he'll follow the Tenets to the T (and Harmonium direct orders) even if it was to go against his own interests (of which he would not have many). Personally I am convinced The Harmonium is evil, I know it would be willing to launch a full on "War for Peace"... but my character just can't be evil there. It's amazing.
Fraternity of Order is just legalism. Laws are represented and self evident within cultural/material/spiritual spheres and thus transcend them, use and understanding of them is how society collectively overcome or rather tame the spiritual/material/cultural world. It’s an old and lame philosophy but it’s one that is ubiquitous so w/e. As for assigning morality to all of this, even in the structure of Dungeons and Dragons morality system none of this really make sense. The game’s morality is mechanical and mostly centers on combat, spell interactions, and role playing options. Any character of any alignment can find themselves in any of these guilds. I have no idea why you decided to slap that on top of this otherwise very good video.
There are alignment eligibility requirements for each faction in the Planescape Campaign Setting book (the original one, not the new 5e one). Anyone can join the Society of Sensation, lawful characters can't join the Revolutionary League, the Mercykillers only allow lawful character to join them, lawful good characters can't join the Fated, only chaotic characters can join the Xaositects, etc. And the reason I included it is because alignment is pretty central to Planescape, and because most of the factions pretty obviously do have a general alignment, even if they're often more open with whom they admit. But I understand, there are quite a few D&D players who don't like alignment. It's just that alignment is foundational to Planescape. I mean, every Outer Plane is based on alignment.
I'm curious which beings you theorize as the big 5 before the universe. Lady of pain as neutral, I'd guess thariz-dunn as evil, law maybe as Ao or perhaps a united Ourborous...got nothing on chaos and good
What if there is a truely objectively correct philosophy, but it's simply imperfect. Maybe we don't have to reconcile every little flaw in our system to put our full faith and adherence into it. Just find the one with the most tolerable flaws and stick to it. The grass will always be greener on the other side anyway.
Pretty confident you're mispronouncing Xaocitects. Was always pretty sure it's more like "Zaositechts" and had pronounced it that way myself, not "Chaositechs."
You're probably right. I guess I pronounced it like that because that's how I've heard it before, and because it sounds like "chaos," which the Xaositects embody. But then again it would be just like the Xaositects to purposefully NOT pronounce it like "chaos." And you are definitely right that I, for whatever reason, did not pronounce the "t" at the end of the word, saying it like "techs" rather than "tects."
I love finding old videos of games I love. Considering the atheists still get divine blessings without a divinity it implies they are correct. But then again, the entire plot of the game is that belief is what drives the universe.
Irl Christians say that Atheists serve Satan (if you look into Satanism it’s really just humanist egoism) And as it turns out according to DnD lore Asmodous Duke of Hell is the one who grants Aethar their divine magic he’s just playing them
For awhile now I've been interested in more philosophical views. How did you research this? Is there like a complete list I could reference of philosophical view points?
I don't know if there's a complete list somewhere, I used various websites. Using the Athar as an example, I used sites like this one dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Athar_Citadel or this one www.realmshelps.net/faerun/organizations/athar.shtml or this one 1d4chan.org/wiki/Athar as well as wikipedia.
Upon reading through these comments I've only now just realized that you meant philosophical views in general, didn't you? Not just those found within D&D. Wikipedia's usually the place I start my research and then when I find something interesting I look it up on other websites to find more details. The list of types of theism is pretty interested even though I'm not a theist (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism). That came in handy during the making of this video. As well as this list of philosophies in general: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_philosophies. I'd recommend clicking on a few at random until you find one that's interesting, then find a video about it.
10:54 Aight, but what about people who label themselves as more "reasonable" than other folks and use that as justification for inflicting violence on them? In this sense, "reason" is just the keys to power, so the Fated may be closer to Ayn Rand's actual philosophy than you may think. Assuming of course that this video still reflects your current views.
The Doomguard see entropy as an essential force in the Universe (like Shiva in Hinduism) that should be allowed to do its job. Since they're not self-serving, they should be considered a Neutral alignment. Perhaps TN, as entropy doesn't really take sides. All things must die, if only to be born again! Join the Doomguard today! We have pancakes!! (For now.)
I'm curious about running a planescape game for my group as it's very different from our usual fare. I don't know much about the setting though, do you have any suggestions for further reading? I'm also curious about what kind of adventures would take place in a setting like Sigil. I'm coming from very typical dnd "go kill the goblins/vampires/dragon" perspective with a dash of diet political intrigue so Sigil and planescape both feel very ethereal by comparison, I can't imagine daily life there or what kind of events would take place.
The Planescape Campaign Setting books are a good place to start. Physical copies are very hard to find for a reasonable price these days, but you can find full pdfs online. Like here: anyflip.com/ljek/ftmb. And if you want more detail about the various planes then you could read the supplemental campaign setting books like "The Planes of Law" ( fdocuments.in/reader/full/planescape-planes-of-law ) and "The Planes of Conflict" ( pdfcoffee.com/planescape-dampd-2nd-planes-of-chaos-pdf-free.html ) and for Sigil then read "In the Cage" ( qdoc.tips/planescape-dampd-2nd-in-the-cage-a-guide-to-sigil-ocr-pdf-free.html ). If you're looking to use Sigil specifically, then keep a few things in mind: Sigil is a maze. The Lady of Pain is known for mazing people (sending them to pocket dimensions they'll never get out of), but the city itself is also a maze. The players will need to pay guides to take them from place to place. Sigil is the city of doors. There are portals everywhere. But most aren't accessible to just anyone. The factions of Sigil exert their control over the city as much as they can, and since the only way in or out of Sigil is through these portals (Sigil is called "The Cage" because it can be very hard to leave), they're a prized resource to control. That's another important thing about Sigil: the factions. The players will probably have to join a faction at some point. They could try to avoid it, but choosing a faction is fun, flavorful, and makes things much easier than trying to remain unaffiliated. Sigil is basically the capital city of the universe. So there are all types there. Archons, Demons and Devils, all sorts of people from the prime material plane, Dabus, gith, tieflings, etc, so life there can be very interesting. Not to mention the sheer number of travelers that pass through Sigil. You could keep your story contained within Sigil and make it about political intrigue and faction conflict, or you could use Sigil as a home base while some ancient and incredibly powerful patron sends your players out to the Outer Realms to do their bidding. Also remember that the Lady of Pain is rarely seen and never talks. So if you make her show up or talk, make sure it happens only once and in a major plot moment so that it feels as epic and mysterious as it should.
@@WadeAllen001 Thanks for the reply, I've bookmarked those links and will give them a read through : ) Do they cover the kind of adventures/plots that might come up in a Planescape game? I might be over thinking it but I'm guessing the usual "the tavern owner's daughter has been kidnapped by gnolls" would be a bit out of place.
I love this video! Thank you for explaining all the factions so well. I will be using several in my campaign so I expect to watch this video many times! ♡(> ਊ
In regards to Ayn Rand's views on Might Makes Right - in effect, she DID believe that, she just believed that superior scientific acheivement was a way to make that happen. Look up her views on Native Americans or other "primitive peoples" and how they deserved to be conquered by the West.
Doom guard seeked old relics and artifacts....there primary goal to accomulate entropic are chaotic powerfully generated relics but all powerful items fit the bill... .I am surprised you didn't mention this.....planescape boxed set original...👀🧐
In the headcanon my D&D group used it was Asmodeus for evil, the Primus for law, Zaphkiel for good, and the Shadowfiend for chaos. But in actual lore Asmodeus is lawful evil and Zaphkiel is lawful good and the Shadowfiend doesn't exist. In the headcanon Zaphkiel still resided in Mount Celestia and Asmodeus still resided in Baator, and the rationale for why these lawful characters were the paragons of good and evil is because these 5 creatures were primal beings that were the only beings that stuck around from the universe before this one, and alignment worked differently in that last universe (and there was a 6th primal creature, Tharizdun, who was banished from the universe by the others and was the reason they had to restart reality in a new universe, and whose re-emergence was the main threat of the campaign we played).
The Planescape Campaign Setting published by TSR in 1994 was my primary source. It's pretty hard to find a physical copy these days, but websites like pdfcoffee have the whole thing for free as a pdf. There's also like 20 other AD&D second edition Planescape books that provide supplementary material, also available in pdf form online. Mimir.net is also a great source for all things Planescape, though it's part canon info and part fan-made info. And finally there's a new Planescape book set for D&D 5e that came out a month ago that I'm sure has a lot of information on the factions of sigil. I haven't read that yet though.
For a paladin, I immediately I think of the Harmonium. They're all about peace, order, and the greater good. Of course they're so into these things that they actually become a bit evil because of it, but that wouldn't necessarily have to be true of every member. But also, a character who thinks the Harmonium are good guys with a just cause but slowly learns otherwise could make for a cool story. The Fraternity of Order would be another fitting pick I think. Also like the Harmonium they're more lawful/orderly than they are good, but paladins care about law, so depending on the paladin you play you might be drawn more to the order side of the paladin's order + good combo. I could also see paladins fitting into the Believers of the Source, though it does fit monks a bit better. But you're right that none of these are really lawful good.
@@WadeAllen001 Thanks for the reply. Is there a listing of the original hundred plus factions that existed before the Lady commanded that there could only be fifteen? I know you can't cover them all but perhaps tell me what source book they are in ? Thanks again.
@@garymorris7472 I could be wrong, but I don't think there's a list of all the factions that existed before the Great Upheaval. At least not one that I remember coming across in any of the Planescape books. However, there are more factions that you might be interested in (that maybe I'll make a video on in the future). There are 15 factions within Sigil, but there are more factions, called sects, outside of Sigil. You can read about some of them here: mimir.net/sects/index.shtml The Guardians are a good fit for a paladin if your campaign involves going to places outside of Sigil. The Planes Militant could be another good pick, but like the Harmonium they seem a bit sinister, spreading "goodness" through force to the other planes.
I think a *Beliver of the Source,* could be lawfull-good. If you want to become a God, you probly have to climb a hierarchy, and it would be best if you try to become as moral and wise as possible before you reach the top of it. (In fact,.Such is the motus-aperendi of Mnt.Celestria) ... The *Society of Sensation,* while sometimes hedonistic, probly repect their elder well, becuase they recognise that they have expeirenced more than them. ... The *Trancendent Order,* would be the least likely to derail a DM's campaign. ... The *Xaositechts* are probly the most likely to metagame? ... Some memebrs of the *Free-Leage* may have strong opinions, but those opinions don't neetly fit into any one faction, and they think that having only 15 factions is an oversimplification of the infinate possible worldveiws that one could have. (In other words: it's where you go if you don't like the other factions, but not enoguh to destory them, *or* it's where you go if you don't like the idea of factions.)
Fun fact- the souls of true atheists in DnD go straight to Hell to be eaten by Asmodeus. Some of these factions are basically his dinner. (also, it's pronounced Ein Rand, btw- rhymes with "dine")
@@jonathancampbell5231 So, looking into it briefly, it appears to be exclusive to the AD&D 2e accessory book "Guide to Hell," which was apparently controversial at the time and is basically no longer canon (technically it was never canon in Forgotten Realms, where atheists go to the Wall of the Faithless). At least not fully. Especially not with the way 5e has reduced the specific importance of the gods.
Secondarily you accidentally made the best description of alignment ever when you said the harmonium looks at the chart and sees no difference between lawful and lawful good. You can use that description for most hardline factions. There is no alignment other than their own in their eyes. If one were to use your five cardinal avatars for example the aspect of the blade matron would see neutrality in everything.
Yeah, I was playing a game of DnD where my party had a pocket portal to Sigil (even though it's not supposed to be possible in-world, which added to the intrigue (and I suppose must've meant that the Lady of Pain herself made it)) and we had to go there a lot. At one point we had to choose which faction(s) to align ourselves with so we had a meeting with a delegate from each one. The Xaositects' delegate had multiple personalities, and one of them spoke directly to us as the player characters. He knew he wasn't real and was just a minor character in our game world. It was pretty interesting.
@@WadeAllen001 I think many characters from Toby Fox games may be Xaositectechs. (Expecially Jevil.) ... Sans is secretly either a xaositecht, or a bleeker, who hides that painfull truth from those he cares about. (If fan theroys are true, the same may be the case of the Temmys, except they have having fun with it, rather than being depressed.) ... Flowey may have once been a bleeker, but is likely now a sense, who is cursed to only be stimulated by sadism. ... Chara, is probly a doom-gaurd, beuse he deletes yout world, or he might be a taker, as he represents the desire to level up at all costs.
11:16 Also, Anarchists are opposed to authority and desire social equality. The Fated believe in the authority of the already powerful. The Fated are not anarchists. They have more akin to Fascists (who believe in the domination of their own kind of people above all others) and Capitalists (who believe in the exploitation of the weak and label themselves as strong to justify it). Being a policeman and tax collector is the least anarchist thing you could do.
Yeah you're definitely right about that. I think when I wrote this script I was thinking of ideologies that fit the various factions to some degree or another. Some of the ideologies I list off for a faction are better fits than others I list for that same faction. For anarchism with the Fated I think my idea was that they had a little bit of anarchism in their rejection of authority and hierarchies grounded in law. But of course they're not actually anarchists, as they still have authority and hierarchies, just grounded in power. The free league and revolutionary league are much better fits for anarchy.
@@WadeAllen001 On that we can agree, though I question the assumption that law is that different from the power which Fated revere. After all, what else are laws but threats of force?
@@Sleepy12ftPandathats literally all laws are, government is the monopoly of force. The Fated are as much anarchists as “ anarcho-capitalists” are, which is to say literally not at all. Purely fascist.
16.08 This is violating Hume's Guillotine. One can not derive an ought from an is (one can not jump from a descriptive statement to a normative statement). Just because morality is subjective does not imply ipso facto that you ought not intervene to prevent harm. Understanding that morality is subjective does not mean we should ignore our own good conscience. To suggest such a thing is to confuse moral subjectivism with moral nihilism.
The comic you're referring to isn't saying what I think you think it's saying. It's arguing against it by revealing its absurdity. The cop in the comics is saying just the type of thing that people actually do say when defending the consumption of animals (they turn to moral subjectivism as an answer to why it's okay to kill animals when they would not accept the same thing for themselves).
Right. If I remade the video I'd probably just remove the mention of anarchism in that section. I wasn't trying to say that anarchism is might makes right, or that anarchism completely describes The Fated. For each faction I list several real-world philosophies that each partially encapsulate the faction's philosophy. At the time I said anarchy because The Fated reject the rules and hierarchies of society. Of course then they go against anarchism by putting forth their own hierarchies.
@@WadeAllen001 What? It's definitely *not* Siggil. The word's spelled 'Sigil' which is pronounced...well, like the word 'sigil', with a 'J' sound. ;P And, considering Cagers all speak Cockney, nobody but a berk is going to say 'Siggil', my friend.
@@chesswithbill Take a look. forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sigil The phonetics use the "g" letter, which this page (forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:Help-Pronunciation_guides ) associates with how you pronounce the g in the words dragon, good, and rogue. Also this site, scroll down to "The Big Ones" and look for Sigil. www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-pronunciation-guide.661505/
Honestly, I think this encapsulates why the Bleak Cabal have always been my favorite. They're the most commonly good-aligned out of all the factions, despite their name and outlook, which is always fun, but I also just like their whole "Life sucks and nothing matters, which means it's OUR job to make it suck LESS while we're here" ideals. There's something that's always been oddly comforting about that.
They're essentially Mature Negative Nihilists. ie Universe is apathetic?=Help others because NOTHING will.
It's comforting because there is no standard to live up to. Nihilism in general is a philosophy of comfort.
@simonbehrendt-n4w Partly. Positive Nihilism is mature, freeing & prescribes unlimited growth hindered only by one's perceptions.
Negative Nihilism immature, self defeating & anti-survival to the point of being a genuine threat to thd continuation of all life.
Hence the goddess Shar's petty & vindictive depiction vs primordial & manipulative-by predatory methods-comforting of Baldurs Gate 3.
@@limit1770 Their Positive Nihilism is the hardest of all philosophies to achieve, yet the most rewarding in our reality.
Xaositects are my favoruite faction. Like your group, my DM had a reoccuring Slaad NPC who referred to the PC's as "puppets", NPC's as "actors" and had come to the mind shattering realisation that the DM was the true source of everything, referring to him as "The One", and hilariously whenever the DM played this character, he would narrate that the Slaad kept arguing with himself, the DM. For example: "Xor'azx seems happy to see you..." (as Xor'azx) "What?! No I'm not, stop putting thoughts in my head!"
One of my all-time favourite NPC's from any game I ever played.
That sounds like a ton of fun. 😁
This was really well done. Deserves a hell of a lot more views
Thanks, I'm glad you liked it.
Don't get all Bator-ed about it. 😎
@@WadeAllen001 yes it's great
I'm more or less new in D&D and this one is a blast @@WadeAllen001
Just finished planescape Torment, happy to find this banger of a video to clarify things.
Congratulations!
That's a game I remember fondly and I barely get a few hours in before getting pulled away again. Multiple times. But I always want to come back.
Hope I can finish it too, one day. :)
@@ArcangelZero7 just get it over, the game for me was a very Important Philosophical Exploration and it will be for you too.
One fun thing specifically about the Lady of Pain is the idea of worship. With such a very obviously powerful and present figure, you'd figure there would be churches to her and a religion built up. But she actively forbids worship of her. Anyone who has been known to worship her has been found skinned alive. It seems she is quite adamant about being a background figure, even in Sigil.
I won't agree to all you said about factions, but I've seen a lot of people rattling their bone box about this topic, and this is definitely the best video I've seen up to date. You deserve more views man, kudos!
You've played Planescape: Torment, haven't you?
@@magicslinky of course. It actually helped me a lot to enter into the setting after I bought it in 1994.
It was basically impossible for me to dm a game in ps until I understood the tone and approach by playing torment.
@@Torile0Actually that's how I feel a lot too. I notice the books will have a lot of fascinating high concept but it's astonishingly difficult to go "Ok...what's an average person's life in Sigil, or Pandemonium, or the City of Brass...and are they all insane?!"
It's so alien it's hard to relate to, until something like Planescape shows the intention behind it.
I think Xaositects might be Post-modernists, because they would both be rejecting all narratives and many post-modern characters are aware that they are fictional, a prime example being Deadpool.
Good insight.
@@WadeAllen001 Thanks!
@@WadeAllen001 Now that I think about it, that Xaositect member that didn't maintain a consistent personality, may have thoroughly questioned the concept of the self as another narrative we tell ourselves, especially when you consider we also do the same to a much smaller scale with the concept of personas or how we change in personality over time. Or alternatively, they took a Buddhist approach in annihilating the self, or has seen Buddhists do this and questioned why do we need a sense of self at all, and therefore committed ego-death (ego-suicide?).
Amazing video. I'd love to see more stuff about Sigil. And the philosophy stuff was delightful. I need more!!
Some of these factions have bases on other outer planes.
Mercy Killers: Acheron (L-N/E) (they also use Avernus, the 1st of the 9 Hells of Bator (LE) as a prison.)
Fraternity of Order: Mechanus (L-N)
Harmonium: Arcadia (L-N/G)
Transcendent Order: Elysium (N-G)
Sign of the One: Beastlands (N/C-G)
Society of Sensation: Arboria (C-G)
Free League: Ysguard (C-N/G)
Xaositects: Limbo (C-N)
Fated: Pandimonium (C-N/E)
Revilutionary Leage: Carceri (N/C-E)
Doomguard: Negitive quazielemental planes (ash, dust, salt, and vacuume)
Dustmen: Negitive energy plane
Belivers of the Source: Astral plane
Yes, that's true. Perhaps I'll do a video about the outer planes in the future but this one I was just trying to stick to Sigil.
Well, still in the outlands, the Ather have a base around the spire in the center of the outlands, which Sigil sits on.
Why? Becuase not only can Gods not enter that location, neither can their agents or magic.
@@WadeAllen001
I wish you had briefly covered those bases in this video as I'll have forgotten about these organizations by the time I get to the planes.
It's just a lot to take in.
Planescape is such a trip. But a great stage for adventures with a bit of philosophy and plot.
This is a really well done video, dude. Deserves a lot more views.
Thanks!
Amazing video, so well explained, and thoughtful - greatly appreciated!
Thanks!
You closing argument shows that theres only one entity in all of imagination which i align with. Feels good.
Fantastic video, wonderfully researched and explained. Would love to see you take on the philosophies of the outer planes.
That's a great idea.
Dude does a good job on these
.
_My offering of help was unwelcome. I _*_tried_*_ to set her FREE; Sigil is the CAGE, a City of Doors and Locks, is a prison for her. It must be, mustn't it be? Why else call the city of Sigil 'the Cage?' And who is caged? The Lady! A prison so small for one so great. Unjustness, wrongness, intolerable to torment a woman thusly! I tried to break the Cage, let the Lady go free. Shoo, shoo, o pained woman, let Sigil's ring be broken so you might fly far from its filthy streets and the stupid dabus that dare not speak in words for fear their thoughts would be overheard! Before I could finish, I a-found myself here, and my memories none the better for the trip... much has slipped away, much forgotten, yes it was... is? Was? The dwindling of memory has become a comfort to these old bones. Much have I forgotten... I am fortunate in that I still remember you. ~ Ravel Puzzlewell_
Yer just rattling yer bone box Berk. Keep poking the Powers and get into the Deadbook.
Thank you so much! This was one of the best breakdown videos I have ever seen. It is clear that you put a lot of thought and effort into this video and it shows.
I love how you incorporate real philosophy. Great stuff :D
Great video! Love planes ape and the factions, and that was a thoughtful overview!
Thanks for making this. Really helpful.
That's good to hear. Thanks for watching
I just found your channel and I have been really enjoying. I did already know this information but I appreciate the relaxed almost matter of fact (or fiction rather) way you present it. Subed.
I’m here for this. Dave the god, let’s go.
Meh, if Dave becomes a God then good for him, but I'm gonna reserve my warship for Yaway.
@@agsilverradio2225 Goddess Dave respects that.
What a great video!
I'd add that if there's truth in everything, then there's truth in that there is no such thing as truth.
It depends on what we mean by these sentences I guess. What I meant in saying that maybe there's truth in everything is that all philosophies are potentially partially correct in some way, metaphorically speaking or otherwise. So if you mean "there's truth in that there is no such thing as truth" in a similar way, then perhaps I can get on board. Like, some aspect of the sentence "there is no such thing as truth" is true. But to wholly say that it's true that there is no such thing as truth seems to me to be a logical contradiction (aka an impossibility), whereas the types of things I was saying at the end of this video are things that appear contradictory but can be made coherent with the right understanding. It's like dialetheism, statements can be contradictory in the sense that they are inconsistent, or they can be contradictory in the sense that they are incoherent. Some contradictions can be true (the inconsistent ones), but others can't (the incoherent ones).
@@WadeAllen001 Yes! I meant that some aspect of "there's no such thing as truth" is true.
Thanks for your reply, and once again, great work on the video!
An extremely fascinating, well made video 👏 Bravo!
Thanks!
Very educational. I shared it with my group. Thank you for making! Love your voice lol
2:38 im late but ive been looking into lore lately and ive learned that this head canon is actually supported canonically with the 'Ancient Brethren' of which the lady of pain, and 3 other known entities embody different concepts. the Lady seemingly being neutrality, Ahriman being lawful evil, Jarizian being lawful good and a more mysterious one called the serpent seemingly representing magic as a whole (but it seems to be a chaotic evil entity). These beings seem to be far stronger and more ancient than gods and mostly embody alignments. I wonder if we will ever get more info on them, see any more of them, and how they stack up against overgods
TL;DR, your head canon is probably correct, just incomplete as of the moment.
Tharzidun could be one of these. Pure Chaos and Evil which even evil gods seek to keep imprisoned.
Thank you this is very helpful for the slightly changed version of sigil I'm putting into my home world.
Great video! I haven't had this much fun since... the last time.
Love your channel. I miss 2e Planescape so much.
Thanks! I'm currently working on a guide to Baator video. Should be finished sometime in the next two weeks, so hopefully that'll satisfy some of your Planescape cravings.
@@WadeAllen001 yeah they really fleshed out demons and devils for the setting. I look forward to it.
this was an excellent homework background video ty sir
Glad I could be of service.
Great vid! I started reading this book this year, I must get back to it.
Which book? just the planescape campaign setting? or one of the other planescape ones?
Amazing Vid and dive into the setting. New to D&D and looking forward to the new release of Planescape.
Just found this and I really love it!! I hope you keep it up
Glad you liked it!
Great vid. I stand corrected on the pronunciation. I did not know they were using a non conventional form
Would love to see a deeper dive into each of these, along with 5e stat sheet conversions.
thank you for pronouncing Sigil properly, lotta other vids from others don't, and its a shame because they seem deeply researched otherwise.
Yeah I've noticed the same thing.
You man are a legend.
I've heard a funny explanation for why the Sign of One run the hall of speakers: they have no fear of public speaking because they don't believe anyone else exists.
That's pretty good
Great video! Very easy to follow.
Hey thanks!
Youre videos are sparking me study philosophy
Reguarding The Lady of Pain being the most powerfull entity in the D&D multiverse:
...
Canonically, that would be the Luminous Being, who is thought to be an allegory for the dungeon-master.
...
Lady of Pain and P.C.s come close 2nd though.
...
The edrich-evil Therisdune is pretty powerful too. The Gods would love to kill him, but he's so deeply rooted in the fabric of reality, that doing so would destroy everything! (allegedly.)
Yeah the last D&D campaign I was playing in featured a slightly homebrewed version of Tharizdun, whom the princes of elemental evil were trying to free and we were trying to keep imprisoned (so the campaign was partly Princes of the Apocalypse, except we were also playing the Pathfinder Kingmaker adventure path, and our campaign led us to Sigil and the Planescape setting. It sounds chaotic when I say it like that). We never met the Luminous Being in that campaign, though it's not over yet and it only got more and more absurd in the power level we were dealing with as we leveled up (as d&d tends to), so we might yet.
I might be late but you shouldnt meet the luminous being. The Lady Of Pain is described as the DMs "No", weve got an all-powerful overgod described as a flying beard with a face(Ao) so putting in a DM-stand-in sounds really...unneccessary to me. Whats the point of the lady and Ao if you bring your self-insert in to settle things? They're good to explain the cosmos shifting,rules changing through editions, homebrew,cataclysms,resets, etc but one of them really is enough for a party's story
VERY GOOD keep up the good work
"The bleak cabal doesn't look for converts, people just sorta... join it."
... Well shit, I guess I'm a Bleaker.
Fantastic content, Wade: I'm a new follower who's wondering why you don't have more subscribers!?! Thank you so much for these!
I'm glad you like my videos! Thanks for the kind words.
You do a great job thanks. 😎🤘🍻
Planescape works great as the basis for lvl10+ adventures and can be layered over any campaign seemlessly
"Greetings players, you all leveled up to 4 right? Excellent, so, you see a portal before you to another realm. . .
You walk through it? Lol. You brought two characters like I asked, right?"
Lol it's a really cool setting though. When your superheroics are simply too much for the mere material plane, toss everything you think you know out the window...in which one of those things you thought you knew was a key, and the window was a portal to who-knows-where!
I love how D&D is just the Kabbalah with dragons.
This channel deserves a lot more attention. 👍👍👍👍
The Society of Sensation might like the Cenobites.
Not as extreme. Fall-from-Grace from Planescape Torment definitely can differentiate between pleasure and pain, and not trying to find pleasure in pain.
And she is a Succubus.
this is really good!
Thanks!
Shame. I just realized I spelled "transcendent" wrong. 18:17
Great job
Thanks!
Okay but bruh.
That bit of humanity coming up with this fantastic unifying philosophy you imagined at the end there.
That future movement of humanity necessarily includes Abhinavagupta and Lalleshwari, who have already lived and died hundreds of years ago. The former rationally explains the philosophy you describe with systemic rigor, and the latter expresses it with a tangible immediacy which was quite famous through late Medieval Kashmir.
Time is an illusion, old is new is new is old again perpetually for the first time just like every other whatever, and all are simultaneously owned and based.
Well done
absolutely essential. as a new planar DM this is very helpful. I'm more glad than ever that I picked the party to crash land into the sensorium library; now they're being taken care of but pushed to giving copies of their memories of traveling through the universe.
Gotta ask, cause it's just too cool. If there are five primordials, one for each alignment extreme, who are the other four? I assume primus is pure law. Who are the others?
Primus is pure law, The Lady of Pain is pure neutrality, Asmodeus is pure evil, Zaphkiel is pure good, and the Shadowfiend is pure chaos. So the Shadowfiend was the only one entirely made up, and it was an entity with no true form or personality. The Primus pretty much remained unchanged except elevated in power, and Asmodeus and Zaphkiel were changed a bit to make them more pure. But also, if I remember properly, Tharizdun was the original primordial of pure evil, but was so terrible that the universe had to be remade by the other primordials, and when they did that they locked Tharizdun out of it and replaced him with the more manageable Asmodeus.
Would you be willing to make an addendum to this video covering the new factions in 5e's Sigil? I enjoy your thoughtfulness and style of explanation.
Yeah that's a good idea. The 5e book merged two factions into one, got rid of one faction, changed the names of two factions, turned one into a minor faction, brought back a nearly extinct faction that was just a sect before, and upgraded another sect into a minor faction, so there's lots to cover.
Interesting how you see law generally as closer alinged to evil and choas generally alinged as good. Guess that feeds into your own bias. if i had to guess you would be more alinged to chaos 😉😉
Since neutrality isn’t a force - it’s just the concordant balance of all 4 alignment forces - if it’s represented by an incarnation, so should logically the other 4 combos (LG, CG, CE, and LE). Obviously Asmodeus automatically puts himself forward as that last one.
the last minute of the video was fantastic. And at the same time it wasn´t. Get it? xD
Btw thanks for uploading this video, it was exactly what I was looking for.
@@waitthatsillegal.7552 Glad I could be of service. I intend on making a few more videos about the Planescape setting when I get the time. Don't hold your breath though.
A minor correction; Eastern karma does sometimes have immediate consequences, and other times it doesn't ripen until a future life. The Buddha, for example, distinguished between karma with immediate consequences, karma with indeterminate future consequences, and karma with consequences in a future life.
Thanks for the correction, that's good to know.
well done.
Public bathrooms are described in the book of vile darkness as an affront to water elementals and noninterventionists aren't assholes.
I made a golden dragonborn, and he's a member of The Harmonium
and for as much as I wanted to make him Lawful Evil... I found out that I can't
The Harmonium holds several tenets, such as "only use force if necessary and as minimally necessary"...
and for as much as I wanted him to be evil, my character is so devoted to The Harmonium he'll follow the Tenets to the T (and Harmonium direct orders) even if it was to go against his own interests (of which he would not have many).
Personally I am convinced The Harmonium is evil, I know it would be willing to launch a full on "War for Peace"... but my character just can't be evil there. It's amazing.
"COPS!" - Brennan Lee Mulligan, on Harmonium
Fraternity of Order is just legalism. Laws are represented and self evident within cultural/material/spiritual spheres and thus transcend them, use and understanding of them is how society collectively overcome or rather tame the spiritual/material/cultural world. It’s an old and lame philosophy but it’s one that is ubiquitous so w/e. As for assigning morality to all of this, even in the structure of Dungeons and Dragons morality system none of this really make sense. The game’s morality is mechanical and mostly centers on combat, spell interactions, and role playing options. Any character of any alignment can find themselves in any of these guilds. I have no idea why you decided to slap that on top of this otherwise very good video.
There are alignment eligibility requirements for each faction in the Planescape Campaign Setting book (the original one, not the new 5e one). Anyone can join the Society of Sensation, lawful characters can't join the Revolutionary League, the Mercykillers only allow lawful character to join them, lawful good characters can't join the Fated, only chaotic characters can join the Xaositects, etc. And the reason I included it is because alignment is pretty central to Planescape, and because most of the factions pretty obviously do have a general alignment, even if they're often more open with whom they admit.
But I understand, there are quite a few D&D players who don't like alignment. It's just that alignment is foundational to Planescape. I mean, every Outer Plane is based on alignment.
Here is a fan fact. XAOSITECTS is Greek with English characters so in an abstract way the spelling is correct; appropriate for the faction.
i always saw free league as those people that excersize their freedom not to vote
JUSTICE IS THE BLADE, BY WHICH THE PLANES WILL BE CLEANSED.
I'm curious which beings you theorize as the big 5 before the universe. Lady of pain as neutral, I'd guess thariz-dunn as evil, law maybe as Ao or perhaps a united Ourborous...got nothing on chaos and good
What if there is a truely objectively correct philosophy, but it's simply imperfect. Maybe we don't have to reconcile every little flaw in our system to put our full faith and adherence into it. Just find the one with the most tolerable flaws and stick to it. The grass will always be greener on the other side anyway.
yes
Pretty confident you're mispronouncing Xaocitects. Was always pretty sure it's more like "Zaositechts" and had pronounced it that way myself, not "Chaositechs."
You're probably right. I guess I pronounced it like that because that's how I've heard it before, and because it sounds like "chaos," which the Xaositects embody. But then again it would be just like the Xaositects to purposefully NOT pronounce it like "chaos." And you are definitely right that I, for whatever reason, did not pronounce the "t" at the end of the word, saying it like "techs" rather than "tects."
Do Limbo next!
I love finding old videos of games I love.
Considering the atheists still get divine blessings without a divinity it implies they are correct.
But then again, the entire plot of the game is that belief is what drives the universe.
Irl Christians say that Atheists serve Satan (if you look into Satanism it’s really just humanist egoism)
And as it turns out according to DnD lore Asmodous Duke of Hell is the one who grants Aethar their divine magic he’s just playing them
For awhile now I've been interested in more philosophical views. How did you research this? Is there like a complete list I could reference of philosophical view points?
I don't know if there's a complete list somewhere, I used various websites. Using the Athar as an example, I used sites like this one dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Athar_Citadel or this one www.realmshelps.net/faerun/organizations/athar.shtml or this one 1d4chan.org/wiki/Athar as well as wikipedia.
Upon reading through these comments I've only now just realized that you meant philosophical views in general, didn't you? Not just those found within D&D. Wikipedia's usually the place I start my research and then when I find something interesting I look it up on other websites to find more details. The list of types of theism is pretty interested even though I'm not a theist (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism). That came in handy during the making of this video. As well as this list of philosophies in general: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_philosophies. I'd recommend clicking on a few at random until you find one that's interesting, then find a video about it.
Shame I probably wouldn't align with any of these.
10:54 Aight, but what about people who label themselves as more "reasonable" than other folks and use that as justification for inflicting violence on them? In this sense, "reason" is just the keys to power, so the Fated may be closer to Ayn Rand's actual philosophy than you may think.
Assuming of course that this video still reflects your current views.
The Doomguard see entropy as an essential force in the Universe (like Shiva in Hinduism) that should be allowed to do its job. Since they're not self-serving, they should be considered a Neutral alignment. Perhaps TN, as entropy doesn't really take sides.
All things must die, if only to be born again!
Join the Doomguard today! We have pancakes!! (For now.)
I'm curious about running a planescape game for my group as it's very different from our usual fare. I don't know much about the setting though, do you have any suggestions for further reading?
I'm also curious about what kind of adventures would take place in a setting like Sigil. I'm coming from very typical dnd "go kill the goblins/vampires/dragon" perspective with a dash of diet political intrigue so Sigil and planescape both feel very ethereal by comparison, I can't imagine daily life there or what kind of events would take place.
The Planescape Campaign Setting books are a good place to start. Physical copies are very hard to find for a reasonable price these days, but you can find full pdfs online. Like here: anyflip.com/ljek/ftmb. And if you want more detail about the various planes then you could read the supplemental campaign setting books like "The Planes of Law" ( fdocuments.in/reader/full/planescape-planes-of-law ) and "The Planes of Conflict" ( pdfcoffee.com/planescape-dampd-2nd-planes-of-chaos-pdf-free.html ) and for Sigil then read "In the Cage" ( qdoc.tips/planescape-dampd-2nd-in-the-cage-a-guide-to-sigil-ocr-pdf-free.html ).
If you're looking to use Sigil specifically, then keep a few things in mind: Sigil is a maze. The Lady of Pain is known for mazing people (sending them to pocket dimensions they'll never get out of), but the city itself is also a maze. The players will need to pay guides to take them from place to place. Sigil is the city of doors. There are portals everywhere. But most aren't accessible to just anyone. The factions of Sigil exert their control over the city as much as they can, and since the only way in or out of Sigil is through these portals (Sigil is called "The Cage" because it can be very hard to leave), they're a prized resource to control. That's another important thing about Sigil: the factions. The players will probably have to join a faction at some point. They could try to avoid it, but choosing a faction is fun, flavorful, and makes things much easier than trying to remain unaffiliated. Sigil is basically the capital city of the universe. So there are all types there. Archons, Demons and Devils, all sorts of people from the prime material plane, Dabus, gith, tieflings, etc, so life there can be very interesting. Not to mention the sheer number of travelers that pass through Sigil. You could keep your story contained within Sigil and make it about political intrigue and faction conflict, or you could use Sigil as a home base while some ancient and incredibly powerful patron sends your players out to the Outer Realms to do their bidding. Also remember that the Lady of Pain is rarely seen and never talks. So if you make her show up or talk, make sure it happens only once and in a major plot moment so that it feels as epic and mysterious as it should.
@@WadeAllen001 Thanks for the reply, I've bookmarked those links and will give them a read through : )
Do they cover the kind of adventures/plots that might come up in a Planescape game? I might be over thinking it but I'm guessing the usual "the tavern owner's daughter has been kidnapped by gnolls" would be a bit out of place.
Hi
Do you know of a map showing Bigby's statue in Sigil?
Thx
I love this video! Thank you for explaining all the factions so well. I will be using several in my campaign so I expect to watch this video many times! ♡(> ਊ
In regards to Ayn Rand's views on Might Makes Right - in effect, she DID believe that, she just believed that superior scientific acheivement was a way to make that happen. Look up her views on Native Americans or other "primitive peoples" and how they deserved to be conquered by the West.
Doom guard seeked old relics and artifacts....there primary goal to accomulate entropic are chaotic powerfully generated relics but all powerful items fit the bill...
.I am surprised you didn't mention this.....planescape boxed set original...👀🧐
Who are the other 4 entities that embody alignment alongside the Lady of Pain?
In the headcanon my D&D group used it was Asmodeus for evil, the Primus for law, Zaphkiel for good, and the Shadowfiend for chaos. But in actual lore Asmodeus is lawful evil and Zaphkiel is lawful good and the Shadowfiend doesn't exist. In the headcanon Zaphkiel still resided in Mount Celestia and Asmodeus still resided in Baator, and the rationale for why these lawful characters were the paragons of good and evil is because these 5 creatures were primal beings that were the only beings that stuck around from the universe before this one, and alignment worked differently in that last universe (and there was a 6th primal creature, Tharizdun, who was banished from the universe by the others and was the reason they had to restart reality in a new universe, and whose re-emergence was the main threat of the campaign we played).
Thanks for the great video, but Dustmen are obviously TN! ^_^
May I ask where one can read up on these things? or which supllement I would need?
The Planescape Campaign Setting published by TSR in 1994 was my primary source. It's pretty hard to find a physical copy these days, but websites like pdfcoffee have the whole thing for free as a pdf. There's also like 20 other AD&D second edition Planescape books that provide supplementary material, also available in pdf form online. Mimir.net is also a great source for all things Planescape, though it's part canon info and part fan-made info. And finally there's a new Planescape book set for D&D 5e that came out a month ago that I'm sure has a lot of information on the factions of sigil. I haven't read that yet though.
🤘
Great vid but none of these Factions represent Lawful Good. I am trying to figure out where my Paladin should look.
For a paladin, I immediately I think of the Harmonium. They're all about peace, order, and the greater good. Of course they're so into these things that they actually become a bit evil because of it, but that wouldn't necessarily have to be true of every member. But also, a character who thinks the Harmonium are good guys with a just cause but slowly learns otherwise could make for a cool story.
The Fraternity of Order would be another fitting pick I think. Also like the Harmonium they're more lawful/orderly than they are good, but paladins care about law, so depending on the paladin you play you might be drawn more to the order side of the paladin's order + good combo.
I could also see paladins fitting into the Believers of the Source, though it does fit monks a bit better.
But you're right that none of these are really lawful good.
@@WadeAllen001 Thanks for the reply. Is there a listing of the original hundred plus factions that existed before the Lady commanded that there could only be fifteen? I know you can't cover them all but perhaps tell me what source book they are in ? Thanks again.
@@garymorris7472 I could be wrong, but I don't think there's a list of all the factions that existed before the Great Upheaval. At least not one that I remember coming across in any of the Planescape books. However, there are more factions that you might be interested in (that maybe I'll make a video on in the future). There are 15 factions within Sigil, but there are more factions, called sects, outside of Sigil. You can read about some of them here: mimir.net/sects/index.shtml
The Guardians are a good fit for a paladin if your campaign involves going to places outside of Sigil. The Planes Militant could be another good pick, but like the Harmonium they seem a bit sinister, spreading "goodness" through force to the other planes.
Guide to hell says Asmdous lord of the ninth grants the athra their priestly spells
What happened to chaotic neutral?
I think a *Beliver of the Source,* could be lawfull-good. If you want to become a God, you probly have to climb a hierarchy, and it would be best if you try to become as moral and wise as possible before you reach the top of it.
(In fact,.Such is the motus-aperendi of Mnt.Celestria)
...
The *Society of Sensation,* while sometimes hedonistic, probly repect their elder well, becuase they recognise that they have expeirenced more than them.
...
The *Trancendent Order,* would be the least likely to derail a DM's campaign.
...
The *Xaositechts* are probly the most likely to metagame?
...
Some memebrs of the *Free-Leage* may have strong opinions, but those opinions don't neetly fit into any one faction, and they think that having only 15 factions is an oversimplification of the infinate possible worldveiws that one could have.
(In other words: it's where you go if you don't like the other factions, but not enoguh to destory them, *or* it's where you go if you don't like the idea of factions.)
Fun fact- the souls of true atheists in DnD go straight to Hell to be eaten by Asmodeus. Some of these factions are basically his dinner.
(also, it's pronounced Ein Rand, btw- rhymes with "dine")
...no? What book are you getting this from?
@@SonofSethoitae Not sure what book. Seen it on some articles and videos.
@@jonathancampbell5231 So, looking into it briefly, it appears to be exclusive to the AD&D 2e accessory book "Guide to Hell," which was apparently controversial at the time and is basically no longer canon (technically it was never canon in Forgotten Realms, where atheists go to the Wall of the Faithless). At least not fully. Especially not with the way 5e has reduced the specific importance of the gods.
Secondarily you accidentally made the best description of alignment ever when you said the harmonium looks at the chart and sees no difference between lawful and lawful good.
You can use that description for most hardline factions. There is no alignment other than their own in their eyes.
If one were to use your five cardinal avatars for example the aspect of the blade matron would see neutrality in everything.
and people says alignement is an outdated mechanic of D&D :D
Xaositects are matrix conspiricy-theorests.
Yeah, I was playing a game of DnD where my party had a pocket portal to Sigil (even though it's not supposed to be possible in-world, which added to the intrigue (and I suppose must've meant that the Lady of Pain herself made it)) and we had to go there a lot. At one point we had to choose which faction(s) to align ourselves with so we had a meeting with a delegate from each one. The Xaositects' delegate had multiple personalities, and one of them spoke directly to us as the player characters. He knew he wasn't real and was just a minor character in our game world. It was pretty interesting.
@@WadeAllen001 I think many characters from Toby Fox games may be Xaositectechs.
(Expecially Jevil.)
...
Sans is secretly either a xaositecht, or a bleeker, who hides that painfull truth from those he cares about. (If fan theroys are true, the same may be the case of the Temmys, except they have having fun with it, rather than being depressed.)
...
Flowey may have once been a bleeker, but is likely now a sense, who is cursed to only be stimulated by sadism.
...
Chara, is probly a doom-gaurd, beuse he deletes yout world, or he might be a taker, as he represents the desire to level up at all costs.
@@WadeAllen001The theamsong of a Xaositecht. ruclips.net/video/4WQyBHdcTdY/видео.html
11:16 Also, Anarchists are opposed to authority and desire social equality. The Fated believe in the authority of the already powerful. The Fated are not anarchists. They have more akin to Fascists (who believe in the domination of their own kind of people above all others) and Capitalists (who believe in the exploitation of the weak and label themselves as strong to justify it). Being a policeman and tax collector is the least anarchist thing you could do.
Yeah you're definitely right about that. I think when I wrote this script I was thinking of ideologies that fit the various factions to some degree or another. Some of the ideologies I list off for a faction are better fits than others I list for that same faction. For anarchism with the Fated I think my idea was that they had a little bit of anarchism in their rejection of authority and hierarchies grounded in law. But of course they're not actually anarchists, as they still have authority and hierarchies, just grounded in power. The free league and revolutionary league are much better fits for anarchy.
@@WadeAllen001 On that we can agree, though I question the assumption that law is that different from the power which Fated revere. After all, what else are laws but threats of force?
@@Sleepy12ftPandathats literally all laws are, government is the monopoly of force. The Fated are as much anarchists as “ anarcho-capitalists” are, which is to say literally not at all. Purely fascist.
@@kMegalonyx agreed.
16.08 This is violating Hume's Guillotine. One can not derive an ought from an is (one can not jump from a descriptive statement to a normative statement). Just because morality is subjective does not imply ipso facto that you ought not intervene to prevent harm. Understanding that morality is subjective does not mean we should ignore our own good conscience. To suggest such a thing is to confuse moral subjectivism with moral nihilism.
The comic you're referring to isn't saying what I think you think it's saying. It's arguing against it by revealing its absurdity. The cop in the comics is saying just the type of thing that people actually do say when defending the consumption of animals (they turn to moral subjectivism as an answer to why it's okay to kill animals when they would not accept the same thing for themselves).
Anarchism isn't might makes right.
In fact, it is as philosophically opposed to might makes right as possible.
Right. If I remade the video I'd probably just remove the mention of anarchism in that section. I wasn't trying to say that anarchism is might makes right, or that anarchism completely describes The Fated. For each faction I list several real-world philosophies that each partially encapsulate the faction's philosophy. At the time I said anarchy because The Fated reject the rules and hierarchies of society. Of course then they go against anarchism by putting forth their own hierarchies.
@@WadeAllen001 Alright. Thanks for the response! The video was very good otherwise.
Yer barmier'n a chaosman, cutter.
We actually know who the God of Lawfull-Netrality is. It's Primas! A.K.A, Deus Ex Machina!
Ain’t that hard G in pronunciation of Sigil?
Yeah, a hard G. Siggil, not sijil. So not pronounced the same way as the word "sigil" that means magic symbol.
@@WadeAllen001 What? It's definitely *not* Siggil. The word's spelled 'Sigil' which is pronounced...well, like the word 'sigil', with a 'J' sound. ;P And, considering Cagers all speak Cockney, nobody but a berk is going to say 'Siggil', my friend.
@@chesswithbill Take a look. forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sigil
The phonetics use the "g" letter, which this page (forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Forgotten_Realms_Wiki:Help-Pronunciation_guides ) associates with how you pronounce the g in the words dragon, good, and rogue.
Also this site, scroll down to "The Big Ones" and look for Sigil. www.enworld.org/threads/d-d-pronunciation-guide.661505/
@@WadeAllen001 Yeah, but Siggil sounds…dumb. ;D Regardless, I dig your video and sources!