Not counting digital or the gain cells discussed here, the best sounding 'traditionally designed' are, in order, stepped attenuators with high grade metal film resistors; then precision carbon film based wipers. Stay away from plastic film, which tends to lose a bit of dynamics and has a very light "gauze" over the sound. Years of comparisons building 'passive preamps' led me to these conclusions.
@@robbedoeslegrand236 Wirewound resistors have the side effect of parasitic inductance which can create frequency dependant artifacts in combination with circuit capacitance. Inductance is great in power supply dropping/ballast resistors but not beneficial at all in the signal path. The best resistors for the signal path use either bulk resistance or a resistive film in a non-inductive construction.
The best volume control i believe is the lossless digital volume control on my NAD M51 dac. 35-bit no loss of bit perfect audio until turned down to below -44db before losing bit perfect audio (very quite by then, so no big deal).
Enjoyed your comments. I will have to do more investigation of your gain cell concept. I do some pro audio engineering and have always beed frustrated with the way attenuators screw with the sound. Over the years I have found two that I like... I don’t hear effects if attenuation. 1. 32 bit digital atten. Built into Mytec Brooklyn DAC. 2. 3 stage analog atten. In Millinnea HD-V 8 Channel mic pre. Covers 65db range. First control is switched metal film in 1.5 db increments matched across channels to less than 0.1db. Covers 22db. Then if you need more gain you push button to insert 2nd and 3rd stage, otherwise they are not in circuit. Sounds flawless, favorite of Telarc.
Yes, because sound dies quickly in the cold, thin air of Mars. The Martian atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide and only 7% as dense as Earth's is, so sound fades more quickly. Therefore, Martians are very concerned about sound quality!! 🤣
Since I don't intend to spend the coin on a gain cell-equipped product. What's the *second best* sounding volume control -- manufacturer and part number? :)
This is pure truth ! the best component is always NO component ........I even tested fuses ........and the best fuse was NO fuse ! ( at my own risk) , so i put a bypass switch on the fuse ...... Same as designing a preamp..........using the less components as possible.......the few left will be choosen because they will reveal their sonic nature and synergy with the others.. Most used high resistors hyped for their precision are not necessary the best sounding !. And when using a pot ...............not at the input but in the output ..... All pots sound different ........Right and spot on ....
Very good question and very good answer. Transparency of volume controls affects every stage. On electric guitars, any quality instrument will include a small capacitor to allow the treble to bypass the volume control entirely. Without this cap, highs are attenuated in the control with any setting that places more than zero ohms in the signal path. Often 250K or 500K pots will still leave a few tens to a few thousands of ohms in the signal path even when set to 100%. Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead countered that "tone sucking" issue by running his signal unattenuated directly to his Fender amp as a preamp sans any control and then looping the pre-amplified signal back to his guitar to the volume attenuator which finally fed his McIntosh MC-2300 power amp. That helped.
@ Your account name is quite becoming but would be even more accurate if you change ignorance to idiocy. Name one other guitarist that runs a driver level preamp output to their guitar and back to feed their power amp... you can't. You have never done this. You're full of it unless you can provide pictures which you can't. Also, the Dead did not distribute acid, you imbecile. I was there, backstage, as a member of the production crew. There was acid to be had if you knew who to ask but the band and inner circle was NOT part of it. Your "history" seems like it comes from a comic book about Hippies written by a pill popping square.
5 лет назад
MK ultra - a REAL program - a REAL Wikipedia entry about one of the core "DEAD" writers " Robert Hunter is an American lyricist, singer-songwriter, translator, and poet, best known for his association with Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead. Along with Ken Kesey, Hunter was an early volunteer MKUltra test subject at Stanford University. Stanford test subjects were paid to take LSD, psilocybin, and mescaline, then report on their experiences. These experiences were creatively formative for Hunter:
5 лет назад
@@Peter_S_ - If you decide to pursue proper logic logosmedia.com/2013/05/manufacturing-the-deadhead-a-product-of-social-engineering-by-joe-atwill-and-jan-irvin/ a few things to get you started - - Dave McGowan broke alot of this info and was killed - the-eye.eu/public/concen.org/Weird%20Scenes%20Inside%20the%20Canyon%20-%20Laurel%20Canyon%2C%20Covert%20Ops%20%26%20the%20Dark%20Heart%20of%20the%20Hippie%20Dream%20%282014%29%20by%20David%20McGowan%20%26%20Nick%20Bryant.pdf
Digital volume control is the more typical way in much of modern gear. If you run the DAC directly to your power amplifier you can attenuate digitally. And surely lower volume means lower bit resolution but if you start with 24 bits you have 8 bits of attenuation before hitting a 16 bit resolution. That’s from 1:1 to 1:256 or 6x8=48dB down. If you crank the volume down more than 48dB you end up with less than CD quality.
ruclips.net/video/JYjHKv2_OqQ/видео.html A 16bit DAC with attenuation is also inaccurate. However, upconverting to 32bit will solve any issues, or at least reduce to be insignificant.
Ah, but varying the gain of an amplifier stage causes it to deliver more or less unwanted noise, right? I believe there is no best attenuator, regardless of design theory.
Something in the same vein, I want to ad a remote between my amp and preamp that I love, was looking at the audiocubics, but alas, I believe they are out of business. Anyone know of anyone else that makes something like the r-cube?
Used to be the best: www.beatronic.com/components-parts/penny-giles-controls I have no idea where they are now. Paul's solution seems to be a good one.
I don't know why VCA's aren't more readily available just like adjustable voltage regulators are . Just add + and - 15 volts ...a control pot and there you go ! The gain cell must have specs equal to an OP27 or NE5534AN at the least
A Gilbert Cell Multiplier circuit is a VCA. And there are some chips that are true VCA's. But other audio gain chips are also just stepped attenuator using CMOS switches and a resistor ladder. The Burr Brown PGA2310 is an example that I have used. Many high end audio processors use it as well. Cirrus also makes several audio control chips. What you have to look at is the analog power rails. Many of the 5v only or +/- 5 v parts cannot handle a good audio dynamic range so the input signal must be pre attenuated then subsequently boosted. The PGA2310 has a +/-15v analog section so it can handle pro line level up to +24db directly.
Yes, that's typically what's done. Most power amplifiers don't have a level control and are always at "full volume". If the DAC has a level control, that's the best place (other than a preamp) to control the level.
I"m surprised he didn't bring this up at all. I'm guessing its so expensive to implement it properly and very few preamps use this but this is to me the best volume control ever made or designed. No worry about resistors, volume is changed via induction only. It is the most transparent and musically satisfying by far.
It is for sure a CA, but is it a VCA ? I know that the topology of controlled amplifiers all have some problems regarding lowest noise, distortion, gain dependent bandwith etc. and they are not perfect in every aspect. Why cant we see a schematic of this circuit of oz.....
great explanation. i make custom amplifier boards, what i mostly do is ... no pre amps , no potentiometer ... the computer's DAC controls the volume and digital equalizer controls the tone . :)
So, what do you actually make? The boards of "custom" amplifiers? As I understand it, you drill in holes boards where someone else on the assembly line screws a step-up transformer on it, correct?
@@Kevin-vq6rv lol, nope dude ... I only do DIY stuff and experiment with different things . I have self made the amplifier boards using Transistors (2sc5200 & 2sa1943) and ICs (lm3886) and also I have made toroidal transformers. My point here is , as I experiment with different preamps and all I noticed the best sound to be connecting DAC directly to power amp and controlling volume through computer :)
As a consumer, I don't care how my volume control works, that's for the designer to decide. All I have to know is if I like the component or not. Want to be a real purist? Solder in a new set of resistors every time you want to change volume. This would essentially be a stepped attenuator, without the risk of a dirty or corroded contact. I had struggled for years with the same idea about speaker wire connectors--spade vs. banana vs. bare wire. I finally realized I can't really tell a difference so it is now bananas for me, I change things a lot and they are easier to use.
No, a digital attenuator is not necessarily better, just a different set of problems. Like most technology, You can have a very good analog attenuator and a poor digital implementation or vice-versa. See the reply below by ThinkingBetter.
Andy Delle you are absolutely right. My personal is to have a quality stepped resister or wiper attenuators. I was being a little facetious. My apologies.
you say everything has a sound to it, i'd say everything adds distortion to the signal running through it to some extent (though, usually inaudible) why aren't there sound specs of components? like bright mid resistor? or tight bass capacitor? can you answer that? anyway, it's a good idea to run a reality check on yourself every now and then just to maintain your grip on reality, no offense. just a lil suggestion.
"I am getting close to publishing my memoir! It's called 99% True and it is..." Paul, you'd best hurry, I've heard that your President (Trump) plans to use the same title.
Not counting digital or the gain cells discussed here, the best sounding 'traditionally designed' are, in order, stepped attenuators with high grade metal film resistors; then precision carbon film based wipers. Stay away from plastic film, which tends to lose a bit of dynamics and has a very light "gauze" over the sound. Years of comparisons building 'passive preamps' led me to these conclusions.
Did you try wirewound models? Just curious.
No good. Sharp in the upper midrange/treble. @@robbedoeslegrand236
@@PalJoey-rm2yh Thanx!
@@robbedoeslegrand236 Wirewound resistors have the side effect of parasitic inductance which can create frequency dependant artifacts in combination with circuit capacitance. Inductance is great in power supply dropping/ballast resistors but not beneficial at all in the signal path. The best resistors for the signal path use either bulk resistance or a resistive film in a non-inductive construction.
@@Peter_S_ Well that makes sense indeed, looking at their construction.
Paul it may be a shameless plug but it does make a whole lot of sense to me! Very good.
Good explanation!
Anyone else see how his fly was down the whole time... love you Paul.
The electron how it flows is everything for the result
I always thought that is how volume control worked. Never thought the industry was doing it differently.
The best volume control i believe is the lossless digital volume control on my NAD M51 dac. 35-bit no loss of bit perfect audio until turned down to below -44db before losing bit perfect audio (very quite by then, so no big deal).
I believe that every component and the way they are build all sound and look different as in quality, this applies to audio and video
Paul, love the videos but there seems to be a bit of "gain" happening with your zipper.
morrisonAV 😂
I've often heard about zipper noise in regards to pots, but is TOO obvious
Hahha
One of the main problem of jeans pants..
Enjoyed your comments. I will have to do more investigation of your gain cell concept. I do some pro audio engineering and have always beed frustrated with the way attenuators screw with the sound. Over the years I have found two that I like... I don’t hear effects if attenuation.
1. 32 bit digital atten. Built into Mytec Brooklyn DAC.
2. 3 stage analog atten. In Millinnea HD-V 8 Channel mic pre. Covers 65db range. First control is switched metal film in 1.5 db increments matched across channels to less than 0.1db. Covers 22db. Then if you need more gain you push button to insert 2nd and 3rd stage, otherwise they are not in circuit. Sounds flawless, favorite of Telarc.
"This question comes from Mars."
Yes, because sound dies quickly in the cold, thin air of Mars. The Martian atmosphere is mostly carbon dioxide and only 7% as dense as Earth's is, so sound fades more quickly. Therefore, Martians are very concerned about sound quality!! 🤣
Since I don't intend to spend the coin on a gain cell-equipped product. What's the *second best* sounding volume control -- manufacturer and part number? :)
That volume knob is the amps soul .
Give me the analog pot any day .
The new ones SUCK ! lol
This is pure truth !
the best component is always NO component ........I even tested fuses ........and the best fuse was NO fuse ! ( at my own risk) , so i put a bypass switch on the fuse ......
Same as designing a preamp..........using the less components as possible.......the few left will be choosen because they will reveal their sonic nature and synergy with the others..
Most used high resistors hyped for their precision are not necessary the best sounding !.
And when using a pot ...............not at the input but in the output .....
All pots sound different ........Right and spot on ....
I'm in the market for a DAC/Integrated amp. The more videos of yours that I watch the more I'm leaning towards a Stellar Gain Cell Dac - S300 combo.
Hey Paul your fly is open.
I was *just* going to say that!
Very good question and very good answer. Transparency of volume controls affects every stage. On electric guitars, any quality instrument will include a small capacitor to allow the treble to bypass the volume control entirely. Without this cap, highs are attenuated in the control with any setting that places more than zero ohms in the signal path. Often 250K or 500K pots will still leave a few tens to a few thousands of ohms in the signal path even when set to 100%. Jerry Garcia of the Grateful Dead countered that "tone sucking" issue by running his signal unattenuated directly to his Fender amp as a preamp sans any control and then looping the pre-amplified signal back to his guitar to the volume attenuator which finally fed his McIntosh MC-2300 power amp. That helped.
@ Your account name is quite becoming but would be even more accurate if you change ignorance to idiocy. Name one other guitarist that runs a driver level preamp output to their guitar and back to feed their power amp... you can't. You have never done this. You're full of it unless you can provide pictures which you can't. Also, the Dead did not distribute acid, you imbecile. I was there, backstage, as a member of the production crew. There was acid to be had if you knew who to ask but the band and inner circle was NOT part of it. Your "history" seems like it comes from a comic book about Hippies written by a pill popping square.
MK ultra - a REAL program - a REAL Wikipedia entry about one of the core "DEAD" writers " Robert Hunter is an American lyricist, singer-songwriter, translator, and poet, best known for his association with Jerry Garcia and the Grateful Dead.
Along with Ken Kesey, Hunter was an early volunteer MKUltra test
subject at Stanford University. Stanford test subjects were paid to
take LSD, psilocybin, and mescaline, then report on their experiences. These experiences were creatively formative for Hunter:
@@Peter_S_ - If you decide to pursue proper logic logosmedia.com/2013/05/manufacturing-the-deadhead-a-product-of-social-engineering-by-joe-atwill-and-jan-irvin/ a few things to get you started - - Dave McGowan broke alot of this info and was killed - the-eye.eu/public/concen.org/Weird%20Scenes%20Inside%20the%20Canyon%20-%20Laurel%20Canyon%2C%20Covert%20Ops%20%26%20the%20Dark%20Heart%20of%20the%20Hippie%20Dream%20%282014%29%20by%20David%20McGowan%20%26%20Nick%20Bryant.pdf
@@Peter_S_ www.reddit.com/r/gratefuldead/comments/6068xx/we_now_know_for_sure_jerry_garcia_was_a_cia/
Digital volume control is the more typical way in much of modern gear. If you run the DAC directly to your power amplifier you can attenuate digitally. And surely lower volume means lower bit resolution but if you start with 24 bits you have 8 bits of attenuation before hitting a 16 bit resolution. That’s from 1:1 to 1:256 or 6x8=48dB down. If you crank the volume down more than 48dB you end up with less than CD quality.
You sir answered my question before I asked it.
ruclips.net/video/JYjHKv2_OqQ/видео.html
A 16bit DAC with attenuation is also inaccurate.
However, upconverting to 32bit will solve any issues, or at least reduce to be insignificant.
Or Nads 36-bit digital volume control. I cant find any arguments against it. (Correction 35-bit).
Yes, but 35 bits. Still awesome.
@@ThinkingBetter yes your right 35-bit
The one that goes up to eleven!
Which manufacturer is the first to use the ‘variable gain’ to substitute pots in preamp? Accuphase?
Is this the same a a "digital volume control" IC? Or is this just a pot in the negative feedback look of an opamp?
4:12 - I guess the 'gain cell' is nothing more than a voltage-controlled amplifier! Wait 'til Robert Moog hears about this! ;)
Ah, but varying the gain of an amplifier stage causes it to deliver more or less unwanted noise, right?
I believe there is no best attenuator, regardless of design theory.
I think Dayton Wright did this in the 1970’s with there preamps.
Something in the same vein, I want to ad a remote between my amp and preamp that I love, was looking at the audiocubics, but alas, I believe they are out of business.
Anyone know of anyone else that makes something like the r-cube?
Used to be the best: www.beatronic.com/components-parts/penny-giles-controls I have no idea where they are now. Paul's solution seems to be a good one.
Gain Cell amps were around in the '70s.
I had a Quatre Gain Cell in the '70s. It sounded very good when it wasn't self destructing. I doubt if it worked the same as the PS Audio amp.
I don't know why VCA's aren't more readily available just like adjustable voltage regulators are . Just add + and - 15 volts ...a control pot and there you go ! The gain cell must have specs equal to an OP27 or NE5534AN at the least
Plenty of beautiful VCAs here... www.thatcorp.com/
A Gilbert Cell Multiplier circuit is a VCA. And there are some chips that are true VCA's. But other audio gain chips are also just stepped attenuator using CMOS switches and a resistor ladder. The Burr Brown PGA2310 is an example that I have used. Many high end audio processors use it as well. Cirrus also makes several audio control chips. What you have to look at is the analog power rails. Many of the 5v only or +/- 5 v parts cannot handle a good audio dynamic range so the input signal must be pre attenuated then subsequently boosted. The PGA2310 has a +/-15v analog section so it can handle pro line level up to +24db directly.
So it's ok to turn the volume all the way to the max on the amp, and make a variable gain on the dac?
Yes, that's typically what's done. Most power amplifiers don't have a level control and are always at "full volume". If the DAC has a level control, that's the best place (other than a preamp) to control the level.
We're all getting older. Tests have shown my ears roll off over 8khz. Do yours? Do you get teenagers to audit your setups?
Paul, pleeeeasse? How can i change the gain of a vacuum tube? By varying the cathode resistance?
He means the tube "stage" and not the actual tube.
My electronics instinct tells me that changing the gain means you will not get good quality at very low volumes.
That is a zipper volume stage attenuator not a fly 🧐
is this the same as a DCA?
Transformer coupled (Music First)!!!
I"m surprised he didn't bring this up at all. I'm guessing its so expensive to implement it properly and very few preamps use this but this is to me the best volume control ever made or designed. No worry about resistors, volume is changed via induction only. It is the most transparent and musically satisfying by far.
HaHa, Paul's bustin' loose.
How is that different from a VCA?
It is for sure a CA, but is it a VCA ? I know that the topology of controlled amplifiers all have some problems regarding lowest noise, distortion, gain dependent bandwith etc. and they are not perfect in every aspect. Why cant we see a schematic of this circuit of oz.....
great explanation. i make custom amplifier boards, what i mostly do is ... no pre amps , no potentiometer ... the computer's DAC controls the volume and digital equalizer controls the tone . :)
Manjul Walia How is your bit resolution when you lower the volume 48dB?
So, what do you actually make? The boards of "custom" amplifiers? As I understand it, you drill in holes boards where someone else on the assembly line screws a step-up transformer on it, correct?
@@Kevin-vq6rv lol, nope dude ... I only do DIY stuff and experiment with different things . I have self made the amplifier boards using Transistors (2sc5200 & 2sa1943) and ICs (lm3886) and also I have made toroidal transformers. My point here is , as I experiment with different preamps and all I noticed the best sound to be connecting DAC directly to power amp and controlling volume through computer :)
As a consumer, I don't care how my volume control works, that's for the designer to decide. All I have to know is if I like the component or not. Want to be a real purist? Solder in a new set of resistors every time you want to change volume. This would essentially be a stepped attenuator, without the risk of a dirty or corroded contact. I had struggled for years with the same idea about speaker wire connectors--spade vs. banana vs. bare wire. I finally realized I can't really tell a difference so it is now bananas for me, I change things a lot and they are easier to use.
Your soldering in resisters is even with brilliant! I really only need two different volumes!
That would be the most expensive sound machine. How much to keep your favorite band on retainer.?
@ Not a bad idea. I have an old wind up acoustic phonograph. The volume control is a thick felt butterfly valve in the throat of the horn.
Sponsored by Apple comfirmed :D
I bet you can't hear a difference in an ABX test.
But again, you think ABX tests are 'stressful' so they are not good. LOL
Paul, are you feeling a slight breeze?.
Analog volume control, bad. Digital volume control, good?
No, a digital attenuator is not necessarily better, just a different set of problems. Like most technology, You can have a very good analog attenuator and a poor digital implementation or vice-versa. See the reply below by ThinkingBetter.
No, both can be good and bad depending on design and implementation. As a rule for digital if it's less than 32 bits then it's all bad.
Andy Delle you are absolutely right. My personal is to have a quality stepped resister or wiper attenuators. I was being a little facetious. My apologies.
Ahhh your fly is down
you say everything has a sound to it, i'd say everything adds distortion to the signal running through it to some extent (though, usually inaudible)
why aren't there sound specs of components? like bright mid resistor? or tight bass capacitor? can you answer that?
anyway, it's a good idea to run a reality check on yourself every now and then just to maintain your grip on reality, no offense. just a lil suggestion.
I feel like you are referring to me directly.
Nope, I'm going to stay crazy...no sense in changing now. I'm over half way to a hundred.
@@SJMessinwithBoats1 no i wasn't, must be a coincidence. why would you want to be crazy by the way?
Its easier to think outside the box. Plus being crazy is a family tradition. I tend use the word with humor and not the strict sense..
@@SJMessinwithBoats1 suit yourself then, i'll just stick to knowledge and reality.
I figured that much with your picture like that.
"I am getting close to publishing my memoir! It's called 99% True and it is..."
Paul, you'd best hurry, I've heard that your President (Trump) plans to use the same title.