Been trying to make fyreslayers work and they just don't. They die too fast, they don't do enough damage, and they can't threaten objectivea because they're slow. Playing them is honestly a exercise in frustration as you watch Varanguard blitz the board and then remove whole units without trying while I struggle to remove individual models.
@@Koalaninja90 yeah they are an extreme example. But I feel the same against basically any index with some strength at all. SCE? Cant punch through their armor, they shoot me off the board. Seraphon? Aggradons just kill me. Cities? I get shot off the board slowly walking. Soulblight? Their recursion and board presence means I can't contest enough board space to stand a chance--also they just kill me. At this point I think Fyreslayers should just have an army-wide 5+ ward with a rune for a 4+ for one battle round. That would actually help our ability to stay on the table past round 3.5. This is all infantry lists by the way, because magmadroths are too expensive and cant benefit from the anti-shooting artefact, so they just die.
Yeah, I'm pretty sad about it. Fyreslayers was my most-played army last edition, but in this one it's just frustrating. They've become a janky glass cannon that's too slow to avoid getting hit before reaching their target and needs a bunch of steps to compete with the damage that other factions can just do without jumping through all the hoops. Which, frankly, just feels like a slap in the face, lol: we've always been a slow army with little unit variety, but at least we used to be halfway tanky to compensate. Now we're tissue paper and end up having to bring even *more* of those same few units.
Felt this. Have a buddy who runs exclusively flayers and Morbegs who’s done quite well. I just can’t get any other list to work, unless it’s Ushoran/cardinal/Knights it’s not working
I'm very surprised based on the representation of SCE and STD which FEC can't hurt basically because we only have about 2 units who had a read of more than 1, but good to see! I haven't played tournaments but have done OK with them at my local clubs
The reason FEC is doing better than its index would indicate is because it-much like StD-has absolutely horrible internal balance. You wanna win with FEC? Spam the hell out of morbheg knights, and don't even bother to pretend that anything else in the book is even remotely good, because it's not (in comparison to morbs). A list comprising of Ush, a herald, a pope, and all the morbs you can fit is almost guaranteed to get you a positive winrate. FEC has bad battle traits and bad warscrolls, but its artifacts, heroic traits, spell and prayer lore are top notch, and it has the best recursion in the game.
The only way I see them being able to rein in Nighthaunt they need to nerf their movement or nerf their survivability, because those two things are just too good right now.
And that is a good point too the amount any these armies is played affects the ranking. As mentioned technically speaking Stormcast have easily the highest actual win rate by total but is pulled down by the losses from less experience players. If Stormcast were only played by professionals at the percentage NH or DoZ were they would easily be #1.
Sorry to see that Bonesplitterz win ratio wasn't tallied. The previous graphs had them actually doing well. I haven't been able to play them competitively yet, and the internal balance is crappy, but I can see some teeth in the army. Kragnos + Kopp Rukk is pretty brutal. No wards against him, rend 3 that can be boosted to rend 4 if you ever need it. Healing through Wardokk's and maybe a lifeswarm. Back him up with bricks of Boarboys with augmented rend, and their boosted power through ability. No wards against them either as long as they attack Kragnos's targets. Healing through Wardokk's and maybe a lifeswarm. So either Kragnos gets healed 6 on your turn, or you can potentially bring back two boar boys. It's a shame. I love the army. Was hoping to see them go out with a bang instead of a whimper. At least Beasts of Chaos is going down swinging.
to fix NH they just have to change save from "ignore all positive and negative mod to save" in "They can't get positive mod to save, when a Nh model is hit by a melee or ranged attack ignore rend characteristics of the weapon" this will keep them pretty hard to shift but give people some way to mod their save with spell and debuff effect.
@@YuriGualeri-t5q I honestly dont think its any one thing that makes NH busted, but all of the pieces together. They fly. They ignore modifiers to save. They have massive debuffs on the charge. They're fast. They have a horde of models. They have good to great attack profiles. They have some recursion. I think the biggest thing is model count. Bring that down by a third and see how well they do.
@@DocLecterHann Whats your list look like? Not saying that its your list--we're in a bad state right now but I'm just making sure you're not making it harder than it needs to be
Fyreslayers are definitely in a rough state, but honestly, give it time, keep painting them up. Rules always come around and honestly playing them at events provides the information needed to affect change 👍 Keep the Lodge Fire burning 🔥
With such a huge variety of armies everyone eventually gets a bad edition. Gloomspite were the utter joke army for 4 years even(edition and a half) before they got a mushroom elixir boost. And look at how close Sylvaneth were nearly the worst spot before the Battlescroll saved them. Just keep the fires of Grimnir burning and enjoy the hobby ‘Til Vulcatrix rumbles with good news and Aqshy blazes anew. 🌋 👍
I play Hedonites and Human Cities, against my mate who plays seraphon and tzeentch. Glad to know it's not just me sucking but the meta looks similar to my experience.
Skaven are not fine when no one wants to play against you because you're rolling 18-108 dice, twice. Skaven need other options. Other armies as well need a looking over as they have the same problem, but the Skaven codex came out effectively missing Pestilens and Eshin. (Edit: That Ogor PWRP number though...ooof.)
It's amazing how 1 person can do the job of an entire department and understand the game better than the creators of the game. I also love how metawatch is also just not a thing anymore? They just stopped.
Here’s a hypothetical for you, what is the best army that I could pick that I could still have reasonable complaint equity (that my army sucks) if I lose?
I love these videos were you go over the stats. Its super fun. I'd bet my house they are going to do minor nerfs to the top 1 or 2 factions and then just lower the points for models in struggling armies. I think their to afraid to do anything more ambitious than that.
How can Kharadrons be that high with such a sh*tty index ? I'm glad for them but it's beyond my logic. Sons of Behemat and Ogors need a complete (and quick) rewrite of the whole army. It's taking a very long time for crucial adjustments needed.
Rather than being in a fighting meta because of chosen and varanguard. Would you not say it's a fighting meta because of the drop system forcing you to not include screens? (Which counter these melee juganauts?)
Skipping over KO ? It's surprising to see them up there when it's so hard for them to score the battle tactics. Would like to know your opinion on the army, we don't see them much in stats center either.
As a Seraphon player, I rather have more power instead of recurssion. Stronger saurus warriors and monsters instead of having standart to mediocre troops to compensate with a Slann to bring them back.
I always find how much tournament players focus on the balance amusing, as they are the players least affected by it. They will always play the jank, swap armies or just try overcome the book. Whereas the players that don't have that depth of understanding or desire to work through it are more likely to just quit and they are mainly silent
I've only been playing for 11 months and only just started painting 8 months ago. Ogors are my first and only fully painted army. Ogors felt awesome to play in 3rd edition. Brutal charges and fun rules. Now? Nearly everything they do feels lack luster. Nearly everything is extremely overcosted. I don't get what the balance team is doing with them. Or if they even know what they are doing with them, since they are just so far from the mathematical reality of what they can do for their points.
Maybe because in Brazil we don’t have many players (and is not so easy to come by minis) so the local meta is different, but most armies here have being very balanced. Off course some stuff need tweaking, but it isn’t so bad. The only thing is that most players here don’t have endless spells, this for sure affects the meta.
Many of the factions seem to be propped up by 1-2 really good lists or scrolls that you just spam the heck out of. Is that what's happening with Idoneth? Do they just need to be renamed Idoneth Eel Spam?
Do you think that AOS will ever swing more towards grindy combats or does GW/ the community prefer the high speed, binary kill or be killed style of current aos?
so for the deadites... nighthaunt still too high, mostly down to how their fundamental design interacts with the 4e core rules. short of a new battletome rethinking their core faction rules & battlescrolls im not sure there's a real fix. soulblight a bit low, but not by enough to matter, & the things in the army that aren't doing well probably can't be fixed due to how badly the core rules punish infantry & monsters. obr & fec doing fine-ish in the fat middle, but a nerf to kavalos - either targeted or part of a general cavalry nerf - could easily ruin obr outright because that one scroll is holding up the whole faction.
I play Nighthawk and I fear an effective Nerf. I can't imagine what an effective Nerf would be without completely crippling the armies play style nursing or removing the unreadable saves and nerfing or removing the flight and speed would make the Army not at all what is the whole thing is
fyreslayers suffer hugely from being overly defined by all the stuff they don't do and don't have. No cavalry, no flyers, no wizards, no war machines. Their army is a half dozen variations on the same unit of slow, naked dwarves. they're just not varried enough to sustain a whole army, and their lore is written in a way where if the devs did add some of the variety they neef, half the player base would cry foul and refuse to use it. as cool as their concept is, it's just fundamentally not enough to sustain a whole faction, they should have been a couple of neat units in a larger & more diverse faction from the start. as is, they're an absolute disaster, and while future balance patches might bring the win rate up a bit, i don't see any fixes for the more fundamental underlying issues coming.
@@Malisteen You were correct until you started talking about what the fyreslayers players would and would not use. Fyreslayers players have been begging for cavalry, chariots, war machines, magma golems, anything for years. We would happily use any tool provided. Its just that GW keeps giving us the same tool with slightly different shaped heads over and over. Also, calling the faction a "disaster" has got to be hyperbolic. They're one-note model-wise, sure, but thats fine by me.
I think you mixed up Fyreslayer players with Dwarf players. Dwarf players rip out their beards if you suggest monsters or cavalry, Fyreslayer players do backflips at any possibility of new monsters, elementals, chariots, lava golems or even Vulcatrix blessed droth-duardin hybrids. 🔥 🐉 With us in the Realm of Fire I’m sure their time will come, they’re already stirring up fire walls to stop the Skaven, something is stirring beneath their holy volcano and Bael-Grimnir just got new mechanical limbs(Armies of Renown love a named character bodyguard)
Ah! Finally good to see Ogors where they belong! 🤪 a good kick for SCE I’m particular the dragon bros and praetor combo and raptors, some adjustments to Tzeench and it’s anyone’s game!
Do you think it’s purely Tzeentch or is it also Morbid Conj? Perhaps Tzeentch doesn’t need a nerf as much as endless spells do? This is coming from a Tzeentch only player 🤙
It's Kairos, not the faction itself. There's a reason there hasnt been a single placing competitive list without Kairos that im aware of Being able to manipulate battle tactics is MASSIVE in a game where playing the mission actually matters now
The worst part is if they nerf Kairos they nueter the faction. Disciples dont have enough (compared to other factions that is) when it comes to nearly any other unit with the exception of maybe Tzaangor bricks and Skyfires -Horrors are just generic wound batteries for objective control, everyone has that (with a few exceptions) -The rest of the daemon units hit like wet noodles and die way to easily for their wound count, and their shooting is almost laughable
@cyanidedreamer But his spell, though unlikely, CAN fail. I agree its incredibly good but the army falls apart without it to anything worth its points Manipulating battle tactics cant be prevented for the most part, you cant fail the roll for it. It just does
I find it hilarious that y'all use such click bait titles. It's typically unnecessary, but how could I not click on a video that says "The Honest Wargamer"
"...is 69%, which is obviously nice"
Love it
Ogors internal balance is trash and its magnefied when 1 unit and 2 heros are nerfed and it tanks.The whole index needs a rewrite.
Massive agree
also doesnt help when your core foot infantry are a 5+ save
Been trying to make fyreslayers work and they just don't. They die too fast, they don't do enough damage, and they can't threaten objectivea because they're slow. Playing them is honestly a exercise in frustration as you watch Varanguard blitz the board and then remove whole units without trying while I struggle to remove individual models.
Everything is a frustration compared to varanguard.
This edition just doesnt work
@@jakubburchardt4009 Disagree. The edition is great. The index balance is all out of wack. Give it time.
@@Koalaninja90 yeah they are an extreme example. But I feel the same against basically any index with some strength at all. SCE? Cant punch through their armor, they shoot me off the board. Seraphon? Aggradons just kill me. Cities? I get shot off the board slowly walking. Soulblight? Their recursion and board presence means I can't contest enough board space to stand a chance--also they just kill me.
At this point I think Fyreslayers should just have an army-wide 5+ ward with a rune for a 4+ for one battle round. That would actually help our ability to stay on the table past round 3.5.
This is all infantry lists by the way, because magmadroths are too expensive and cant benefit from the anti-shooting artefact, so they just die.
Yeah, I'm pretty sad about it. Fyreslayers was my most-played army last edition, but in this one it's just frustrating. They've become a janky glass cannon that's too slow to avoid getting hit before reaching their target and needs a bunch of steps to compete with the damage that other factions can just do without jumping through all the hoops. Which, frankly, just feels like a slap in the face, lol: we've always been a slow army with little unit variety, but at least we used to be halfway tanky to compensate. Now we're tissue paper and end up having to bring even *more* of those same few units.
Really insightful stuff. It would be great to see stats on the internal balance of books, but that feels like a mammoth task!
Also surprised with how well FEC is doing. I may just be bad, but I have not been able to get them to work no matter what I try.
Felt this. Have a buddy who runs exclusively flayers and Morbegs who’s done quite well. I just can’t get any other list to work, unless it’s Ushoran/cardinal/Knights it’s not working
I'm very surprised based on the representation of SCE and STD which FEC can't hurt basically because we only have about 2 units who had a read of more than 1, but good to see! I haven't played tournaments but have done OK with them at my local clubs
Thank you! i play a lot of armies and its impossible to win for me while playing FEC.
The reason FEC is doing better than its index would indicate is because it-much like StD-has absolutely horrible internal balance. You wanna win with FEC? Spam the hell out of morbheg knights, and don't even bother to pretend that anything else in the book is even remotely good, because it's not (in comparison to morbs). A list comprising of Ush, a herald, a pope, and all the morbs you can fit is almost guaranteed to get you a positive winrate. FEC has bad battle traits and bad warscrolls, but its artifacts, heroic traits, spell and prayer lore are top notch, and it has the best recursion in the game.
The only way I see them being able to rein in Nighthaunt they need to nerf their movement or nerf their survivability, because those two things are just too good right now.
You shut your mouth! Just use the N word when talking about Nighthaunt.
Make Doomwheels Great Again
New here, came over from Juggz. This sort of information is super interesting, and really well done!
Welcome aboard!
And that is a good point too the amount any these armies is played affects the ranking. As mentioned technically speaking Stormcast have easily the highest actual win rate by total but is pulled down by the losses from less experience players. If Stormcast were only played by professionals at the percentage NH or DoZ were they would easily be #1.
Man if this battlescroll lowers the ceiling on NH, Tzeentch and SCE. The game will really open up.
That line chart for the Ogors is brutal (as a down-slope.) At their best, they only did as well as NH is doing lately (a neighboring chart)
Sorry to see that Bonesplitterz win ratio wasn't tallied. The previous graphs had them actually doing well. I haven't been able to play them competitively yet, and the internal balance is crappy, but I can see some teeth in the army.
Kragnos + Kopp Rukk is pretty brutal. No wards against him, rend 3 that can be boosted to rend 4 if you ever need it. Healing through Wardokk's and maybe a lifeswarm. Back him up with bricks of Boarboys with augmented rend, and their boosted power through ability. No wards against them either as long as they attack Kragnos's targets. Healing through Wardokk's and maybe a lifeswarm. So either Kragnos gets healed 6 on your turn, or you can potentially bring back two boar boys.
It's a shame. I love the army. Was hoping to see them go out with a bang instead of a whimper. At least Beasts of Chaos is going down swinging.
to fix NH they just have to change save from "ignore all positive and negative mod to save" in "They can't get positive mod to save, when a Nh model is hit by a melee or ranged attack ignore rend characteristics of the weapon" this will keep them pretty hard to shift but give people some way to mod their save with spell and debuff effect.
@@YuriGualeri-t5q I honestly dont think its any one thing that makes NH busted, but all of the pieces together. They fly. They ignore modifiers to save. They have massive debuffs on the charge. They're fast. They have a horde of models. They have good to great attack profiles. They have some recursion.
I think the biggest thing is model count. Bring that down by a third and see how well they do.
"...that only nerds care about" so your entire audience. 😂❤
And meeeee
i'm playing Fyreslayer, i've been since late V2, and i'm loosing hope that one day FS will be just playable against all factions
@@DocLecterHann Whats your list look like? Not saying that its your list--we're in a bad state right now but I'm just making sure you're not making it harder than it needs to be
Fyreslayers are definitely in a rough state, but honestly, give it time, keep painting them up. Rules always come around and honestly playing them at events provides the information needed to affect change 👍 Keep the Lodge Fire burning 🔥
I started playing Nighthaunt in 2.0, they were awful for years. Worst of the worst. Now they are on top. Be patient.
With such a huge variety of armies everyone eventually gets a bad edition. Gloomspite were the utter joke army for 4 years even(edition and a half) before they got a mushroom elixir boost.
And look at how close Sylvaneth were nearly the worst spot before the Battlescroll saved them.
Just keep the fires of Grimnir burning and enjoy the hobby ‘Til Vulcatrix rumbles with good news and Aqshy blazes anew. 🌋 👍
I play Hedonites and Human Cities, against my mate who plays seraphon and tzeentch. Glad to know it's not just me sucking but the meta looks similar to my experience.
Skaven are not fine when no one wants to play against you because you're rolling 18-108 dice, twice. Skaven need other options. Other armies as well need a looking over as they have the same problem, but the Skaven codex came out effectively missing Pestilens and Eshin. (Edit: That Ogor PWRP number though...ooof.)
It's amazing how 1 person can do the job of an entire department and understand the game better than the creators of the game.
I also love how metawatch is also just not a thing anymore? They just stopped.
Here’s a hypothetical for you, what is the best army that I could pick that I could still have reasonable complaint equity (that my army sucks) if I lose?
I love these videos were you go over the stats. Its super fun. I'd bet my house they are going to do minor nerfs to the top 1 or 2 factions and then just lower the points for models in struggling armies. I think their to afraid to do anything more ambitious than that.
Agreed. All lower performing armies become swarm armies, yay.
How can Kharadrons be that high with such a sh*tty index ? I'm glad for them but it's beyond my logic. Sons of Behemat and Ogors need a complete (and quick) rewrite of the whole army. It's taking a very long time for crucial adjustments needed.
NEEEEERRRRRDDDDSSSS :)
Sorry I am a Sons Player so numbers make me angry
Ah a Gargant player
@@thehonestwargamerstreams hahaha Yup ;)
@@thehonestwargamerstreams Love your vids man! The SoB tier list was hella funny
Rather than being in a fighting meta because of chosen and varanguard. Would you not say it's a fighting meta because of the drop system forcing you to not include screens? (Which counter these melee juganauts?)
Skipping over KO ? It's surprising to see them up there when it's so hard for them to score the battle tactics. Would like to know your opinion on the army, we don't see them much in stats center either.
I guess like you said later in the video, very small number of players that are probably really skilled with them.
I’m getting trounced with my BoK
As a Seraphon player, I rather have more power instead of recurssion. Stronger saurus warriors and monsters instead of having standart to mediocre troops to compensate with a Slann to bring them back.
That’s assuming you get lucky enough to bring them back.
I always find how much tournament players focus on the balance amusing, as they are the players least affected by it. They will always play the jank, swap armies or just try overcome the book.
Whereas the players that don't have that depth of understanding or desire to work through it are more likely to just quit and they are mainly silent
@@redsven7624 Tournament players are the least affected by balancing? What?
I've only been playing for 11 months and only just started painting 8 months ago. Ogors are my first and only fully painted army. Ogors felt awesome to play in 3rd edition. Brutal charges and fun rules. Now? Nearly everything they do feels lack luster. Nearly everything is extremely overcosted. I don't get what the balance team is doing with them. Or if they even know what they are doing with them, since they are just so far from the mathematical reality of what they can do for their points.
Maybe because in Brazil we don’t have many players (and is not so easy to come by minis) so the local meta is different, but most armies here have being very balanced. Off course some stuff need tweaking, but it isn’t so bad.
The only thing is that most players here don’t have endless spells, this for sure affects the meta.
Must be nice! I bet the Tzeentch & other magic domination armies are doing fine without them.
Rip my beautiful Fyreslayers.
@@kilivanjg2813 Patience. Our day will come.
I'd love to see BCR winrate, even with 3+ save they wouldn't shine, please Helps the big lads :c
Many of the factions seem to be propped up by 1-2 really good lists or scrolls that you just spam the heck out of. Is that what's happening with Idoneth? Do they just need to be renamed Idoneth Eel Spam?
Do you think that AOS will ever swing more towards grindy combats or does GW/ the community prefer the high speed, binary kill or be killed style of current aos?
Why do you think the Soulblights are dropping their wins at this rate?
The index dosent seems that weak hmm hmm!
They lack damage output, and the chaff units they have historically relied on are too weak/overpriced.
so for the deadites... nighthaunt still too high, mostly down to how their fundamental design interacts with the 4e core rules. short of a new battletome rethinking their core faction rules & battlescrolls im not sure there's a real fix.
soulblight a bit low, but not by enough to matter, & the things in the army that aren't doing well probably can't be fixed due to how badly the core rules punish infantry & monsters.
obr & fec doing fine-ish in the fat middle, but a nerf to kavalos - either targeted or part of a general cavalry nerf - could easily ruin obr outright because that one scroll is holding up the whole faction.
I play Nighthawk and I fear an effective Nerf. I can't imagine what an effective Nerf would be without completely crippling the armies play style nursing or removing the unreadable saves and nerfing or removing the flight and speed would make the Army not at all what is the whole thing is
@@zachlawrence9875 Probably just points increases.
1/3 less models can be enough 😅
fyreslayers suffer hugely from being overly defined by all the stuff they don't do and don't have. No cavalry, no flyers, no wizards, no war machines. Their army is a half dozen variations on the same unit of slow, naked dwarves.
they're just not varried enough to sustain a whole army, and their lore is written in a way where if the devs did add some of the variety they neef, half the player base would cry foul and refuse to use it. as cool as their concept is, it's just fundamentally not enough to sustain a whole faction, they should have been a couple of neat units in a larger & more diverse faction from the start. as is, they're an absolute disaster, and while future balance patches might bring the win rate up a bit, i don't see any fixes for the more fundamental underlying issues coming.
@@Malisteen You were correct until you started talking about what the fyreslayers players would and would not use. Fyreslayers players have been begging for cavalry, chariots, war machines, magma golems, anything for years. We would happily use any tool provided. Its just that GW keeps giving us the same tool with slightly different shaped heads over and over.
Also, calling the faction a "disaster" has got to be hyperbolic. They're one-note model-wise, sure, but thats fine by me.
I think you mixed up Fyreslayer players with Dwarf players. Dwarf players rip out their beards if you suggest monsters or cavalry, Fyreslayer players do backflips at any possibility of new monsters, elementals, chariots, lava golems or even Vulcatrix blessed droth-duardin hybrids. 🔥 🐉
With us in the Realm of Fire I’m sure their time will come, they’re already stirring up fire walls to stop the Skaven, something is stirring beneath their holy volcano and Bael-Grimnir just got new mechanical limbs(Armies of Renown love a named character bodyguard)
CoS humans need help. All human CoS would be v near bottom.
Ogre are a mess, gesus christ what happened at this faction . Why GW nerfed it so bad ?! They really hate it
Ah! Finally good to see Ogors where they belong! 🤪 a good kick for SCE I’m particular the dragon bros and praetor combo and raptors, some adjustments to Tzeench and it’s anyone’s game!
Do you think it’s purely Tzeentch or is it also Morbid Conj? Perhaps Tzeentch doesn’t need a nerf as much as endless spells do? This is coming from a Tzeentch only player 🤙
It's Kairos, not the faction itself. There's a reason there hasnt been a single placing competitive list without Kairos that im aware of
Being able to manipulate battle tactics is MASSIVE in a game where playing the mission actually matters now
@@Snuffalaffagas Honestly the battle tactic part isnt even the best part about him, his spell is bonkers strong
The worst part is if they nerf Kairos they nueter the faction. Disciples dont have enough (compared to other factions that is) when it comes to nearly any other unit with the exception of maybe Tzaangor bricks and Skyfires
-Horrors are just generic wound batteries for objective control, everyone has that (with a few exceptions)
-The rest of the daemon units hit like wet noodles and die way to easily for their wound count, and their shooting is almost laughable
@cyanidedreamer But his spell, though unlikely, CAN fail. I agree its incredibly good but the army falls apart without it to anything worth its points
Manipulating battle tactics cant be prevented for the most part, you cant fail the roll for it. It just does
His video from two days ago has such a list
Every season they should relegate the lowest win rate faction to the loser league.
It would be better if GW informs everyone you can’t play the trash.
I find it hilarious that y'all use such click bait titles. It's typically unnecessary, but how could I not click on a video that says "The Honest Wargamer"
How is it clickbait you moron? its literally the stats like it says
But it’s not clickbait… he really is talking about the meta of AoS 😅
Yeah that was the joke 😂. The title itself isn't the click bait. The "THW" part is why I click, regardless
Shit joke
Wtf are you talking about ?