The Brick Factory Problem - Numberphile

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  • Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
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Комментарии • 713

  • @jhonbus
    @jhonbus Год назад +1853

    To me, the obvious solution is to fix the track crossings rather than minimise the amount you use them. But maybe that's why I'm an engineer rather than a mathematician...

    • @MarkAhlquist
      @MarkAhlquist Год назад +17

      Yes that was my intuitive approach also.

    • @mirr0rd
      @mirr0rd Год назад +69

      Or use both techniques to minimise cost/effort/power/etc

    • @ragnkja
      @ragnkja Год назад +109

      How hard you try to avoid crossings surely depends on how much more expensive the improved crossings are compared to the extra track needed to avoid the crossing.

    • @pleappleappleap
      @pleappleappleap Год назад +56

      Or make each stopping point a through-station instead of a terminal.

    • @Fidtz
      @Fidtz Год назад +16

      I think fancy crossings would be expensive in build time and capital, longer routes expensive in efficiency and (therefore) cash flow. Case by case decision I guess.

  • @archivist17
    @archivist17 Год назад +435

    The story of working mathematically in such adverse conditions is inspiring.

    • @Sonny_McMacsson
      @Sonny_McMacsson Год назад +33

      Gets you through it.

    • @DaTux91
      @DaTux91 Год назад +30

      ​@@Sonny_McMacsson Exactly, anything to distract your mind from the horrors all around you will only help to endure them. Still inspiring and admirable, of course.

    • @ddognine
      @ddognine Год назад +19

      Mathematically minded individuals will spend their time musing over math problems even if they are in a garden of eden.

    • @derrickthewhite1
      @derrickthewhite1 Год назад

      He was probably mentally grumbling about the stupidity of the idiots who built the place...

    • @Amipotsophspond
      @Amipotsophspond Год назад +3

      he was a collaborator to the system that oppressed him, by doing actions that benefit a system you are helping to support that system. the bricks get used to make bunkers, the more bricks the more bunkers, the more bunkers the more attackers it will take to over come them, by improving efficiency he likely caused greater death of those that would free him. He deprived those that were knocking over the cart and slowing down the system, the chance to fight those that in enslaved them. is it all about you and what gets you threw it, about the entertainment of your own mind, what helps you pay the bills, get a head over the next slave. NEET, lying flat, atlas shrugged, quiet quitting, the cheap slave with to many whip scares, the lazy. these are the actions of those that sacrifice their own benefit to hold to their own morals and beliefs.

  • @prosfilaes
    @prosfilaes Год назад +8

    Another obvious solution is to utilize the fact we're working in three dimensions, and have a bridge over the track.

  • @nicokuhne3255
    @nicokuhne3255 Год назад +607

    i think it is outrageous that they didnt use x(n) for the minimum number of crosses. Absolute tragedy!

    • @christianwolirdeng4766
      @christianwolirdeng4766 Год назад +47

      viewer who crosses their z's: *sweats nervously*

    • @wbfaulk
      @wbfaulk Год назад +58

      But all these mathematicians draw their 'x's like ")(", so there's no cross.

    • @5ucur
      @5ucur Год назад +4

      @@topherthe11th23 I guess people call it a cross 'cause one of the lines crosses over the other, and/or 'cause it's a cross rotated a little ways.

    • @vigilantcosmicpenguin8721
      @vigilantcosmicpenguin8721 Год назад +4

      Yeah, this is, like, the one time when x would be the best.

    • @DrKaii
      @DrKaii Год назад

      ​@@wbfaulk rolles theorem: what doesn't cross?

  • @FrankHarwald
    @FrankHarwald Год назад +272

    For those who don't know: these graphs that are split in two parts with mutual edges between their vertices but not within same part are called "bipartite graphs".

    • @hafizajiaziz8773
      @hafizajiaziz8773 Год назад +5

      Complete bipartite graph reminds me of videos on planar graph

    • @aceman0000099
      @aceman0000099 Год назад +26

      Also for those who don't know: the graphs in my phone gallery are called photographs, and they are used to depict naked images of your mother.

    • @betopostagem125
      @betopostagem125 Год назад +2

      Pretty cool! Graph Theory is fascinating.

    • @LoveDoveDarling
      @LoveDoveDarling Год назад +1

      @@aceman0000099 lol

    • @d1ma894
      @d1ma894 Год назад

      @@hafizajiaziz8773 yea it's all graph theory.

  • @chonkycat123
    @chonkycat123 Год назад +477

    Three kilns and three storage units is literally the three utilities problem!

    • @LordDedenova
      @LordDedenova Год назад +32

      That was my thought as well!

    • @pierreabbat6157
      @pierreabbat6157 Год назад +34

      I couldn't help reciting the dedication of a graph theory book I had years ago: "To Kazimierz Kuratowski who gave K5 and K3,3 ..."

    • @HoSza1
      @HoSza1 Год назад +12

      ​@@pierreabbat6157 Yeah, without him we still would have no graphs anything comparable to those. What an achievement indeed!

    • @JohnSmith-zq9mo
      @JohnSmith-zq9mo Год назад +24

      Yes, but it is asking for minimizing the number of crossings and not only proving that the number is not zero.

    • @tommyhetrick
      @tommyhetrick Год назад +23

      “Just put it on a bagel!”

  • @gregreynolds5686
    @gregreynolds5686 Год назад +78

    To anyone who thinks this kind of maths is a bit abstract - I used to use a lot of these graph algorithms in the EDA (electronic design automation) industry - when you get down to really low level problems, this sort of stuff is invaluable and using it is the only way to make many things realistic and/or feasible.

    • @anujthakur614
      @anujthakur614 10 месяцев назад

      What firm are you working in? (Working in EDA too)

    • @gregreynolds5686
      @gregreynolds5686 10 месяцев назад

      @@anujthakur614 I worked for a startup called Arithmatica - later acquired by one of the big boys after I'd left. We were developing synthesis tools that specialised in producing low area/high speed gate level descriptions.

    • @ansumanc
      @ansumanc 7 месяцев назад

      Its just graph theory

  • @michaeldunkerton3805
    @michaeldunkerton3805 Год назад +12

    The premise for this one reminds me of Futurama, when Hermes was in a prison camp and optimazed the labor so that it could all be done by one Australian man.

    • @brianrose85
      @brianrose85 Год назад +1

      "Quiet mate! Hauling the empty carts is the closest thing we get to sleep."

  • @Hambonillo
    @Hambonillo Год назад +84

    The obvious solution is to place each brick onto a blockchain and 3D print it on location.

    • @jan-lukas
      @jan-lukas Год назад +9

      And also throw AI at it

    • @doncarlodivargas5497
      @doncarlodivargas5497 Год назад +5

      The obvious solution is to place the kilns on the trolleys and rolling them to where they are needed, no need for storage units

  • @AntonAdelson
    @AntonAdelson Год назад +39

    Am I the only one who feels that the story of the proofs will even be MORE interesting? Why 6? Why 12? What was the mistake that no one noticed for more than 10 years?

    • @joleneonyoutube
      @joleneonyoutube Год назад +4

      agreed, I want to see the story of the proof now!!

    • @jaredcramsie182
      @jaredcramsie182 Год назад +2

      The reason that we know that the conjecture for complete graphs is correct up to 12 is because it has been checked computationally. The reason we don't know any more is a because it would take too long to calculate.
      Finding the actual minimum is pretty interesting, because it takes so long to check every possibility it is instead rewritten as an integer linear optimisation problem solved using the associated optimisation algorithms.

    • @Maharani1991
      @Maharani1991 10 месяцев назад

      +

  • @johnchessant3012
    @johnchessant3012 Год назад +27

    Ooh, I love that application of minimizing the number of layers on computer chips! It's really awesome how these problems that seem like idle curiosities eventually find unexpected real-world relevance.

    • @doublepinger
      @doublepinger 3 месяца назад +1

      A bit late, but it's also a distinct problem for electricity production and use, and from that, communicating. Ring bus, token passing, TCP/IP. All related.

  • @취직못한공대형
    @취직못한공대형 Год назад +4

    I don't know why, but as soon as I saw thumbnail and title I felt this video features Dr Grime

  • @alecbader7433
    @alecbader7433 11 месяцев назад +1

    He looked so happy when he got to name the variables after (k)ilns and (s)torage units

  • @mrfabiocosta
    @mrfabiocosta Год назад +4

    In practical terms there would be a no crossing, just need to converge all tracks to a rotary platform.

  • @WokeUpScreaming
    @WokeUpScreaming Год назад +6

    Imagine he comes back to his boss like: i solved it but it only works in 27 dimensions

  • @JasonAStillman
    @JasonAStillman Год назад +4

    mathematician: "Need to minimize crossing." engineer: "Need to fix crossing."

  • @charliewynn3210
    @charliewynn3210 Год назад +25

    I'd be interested to hear exactly where some of these proofs that were later proven wrong were discovered to have issues

  • @coloneldookie7222
    @coloneldookie7222 Год назад +2

    From the sounds of it, a point of singularity are considered as many points has have already passed through it instead of "one".

  • @IrishEye
    @IrishEye Год назад +6

    So computers chips are full of kilns, bricks, storage units and railway tracks? I've always suspected as much.

  • @guaymaster
    @guaymaster Год назад +5

    This is just like that famous puzzle of connecting three houses to the three utilities. In fact, for the 3K3S example, it's quite literally the same!
    And it can be solved the same way: just add a third dimension, by making the railroads elevate above or tunnel under each other, you can make it have no crossings.
    Alternatively, stepping outside the realm of abstract maths, you can connect a kiln to just one storage, and then connect the storages so they can exchange stock when needed.
    Or fix the damn crossings.

  • @zecuse
    @zecuse Год назад +1

    Missed opportunity to bring the complete graph segment back into the kilns and storage segment. The kilns and storage part is trying to make a complete bipartite graph with minimum crossings.
    A bipartite graph is a graph where there are 2 sets of vertices (e.g. kilns and storage units) where members of either set only connect to members of the other set, for those wondering.

  • @austynhughes134
    @austynhughes134 Год назад +2

    Another fantastic Numberphile video. I am so glad I found this channel 6 years ago.

  • @rdreher7380
    @rdreher7380 Год назад +77

    The engineer in me can't help but think "If intersections are so bad, why don't you just design the rail system with switched junctions instead?" You could have all the kiln routs converge to a single line that then diverges to the storage units, the key difference is that the forks in the line would be controlled by switches that would make it so the carts are only ever contacting one set of rails a time. Perhaps this would reduce or eliminate the instability caused by the intersections. Another possible solution: use rubber tired carts not rail carts. Well anyway, the point is to make a mathematical puzzle, and even if that problem isn't actually practical to the brick carts, it can apply to other situations like the circuitry problem.
    I noticed that the 3 kiln to 3 storage unit case of the problem is identical to the 3 houses and 3 utilities unsolvable puzzle. I remember as a kid my uncle in Russia posed to me that puzzle, and very quickly I conjectured it unsolvable (the goal being to have 0 intersections), at least on the Euclidean plane, but I really wanted to mathematically PROVE it was impossible and felt frustrated that I didn't have the mathematical tools to do so.

    • @kmbbmj5857
      @kmbbmj5857 Год назад +9

      My first thought is to connect to a turntable, next would be switches.

    • @yt.personal.identification
      @yt.personal.identification Год назад +9

      My first thought is "don't ask a mathematician to do engineering"

    • @Palparepa
      @Palparepa Год назад +3

      Maybe that was the plan, and lots of bricks are needed to buy that upgrade.

    • @Jonathanizer
      @Jonathanizer Год назад +3

      As i said to the other commenter with the same idea, having tracks converge is actually more difficult to do compared to a somewhat orthogonal track crossing. So if the cart tracks at the work site were so rudimentary, that they could not get the crossings right, they for sure could not get tracks to converge. Remember, this is not a rail way for freight trains, this is a work site, possibly even just temporary, and since it's forced labor, they won't really mind some worker there having to pick up a cart and pick up bricks, it's certainly cheaper than having to install proper tracks.

    • @RolandHutchinson
      @RolandHutchinson Год назад +7

      ​@@yt.personal.identificationSecond thought: don't ask an engineer to do mathematics.

  • @mekafinchi
    @mekafinchi Год назад +2

    I know the main point is the graph theory problem but the engineer in me is screaming the whole time about the 2-crossing solution for arbitrarily many kilns/storages by merging and then unmerging tracks

  • @Wout680
    @Wout680 Год назад +1

    10:28 this crossing, if we draw the full graph on a donut, is the crossing passing through the hole of the donut we need to make a map that needs at least 5 colours to colour every adjacent country with a different colour.

  • @Scanlaid
    @Scanlaid Год назад +19

    Well I timed that refresh perfectly...

  • @Heshla_Biea
    @Heshla_Biea Год назад +78

    If a track merger was a viable intersection for this problem, I think you could bring it down a lot by having them all merge down to one and then split back up.

    • @Jonathanizer
      @Jonathanizer Год назад +10

      Pretty sure those were rudimentary tracks, hence the original problem, a track merger should be even more difficult to get right compared to a (somewhat) orthogonal crossing.

    • @Mathghamhan
      @Mathghamhan Год назад +5

      That would be a modified Steiner tree problem

    • @tinaus646
      @tinaus646 Год назад +1

      I would put kilns on one side and storage units on the outside of a loop, with each kiln and storage unit having an entry/exit ramp.
      The number of junctions is just kilns+storage units.

  • @NitinSatendraRawat
    @NitinSatendraRawat Год назад +157

    Only true mathematicians are crazy enough to think of maths problems while working in life threatening situation .

    • @NitinSatendraRawat
      @NitinSatendraRawat Год назад

      @@Holofractalius Totally agree .Thanks for suggesting.

    • @yt.personal.identification
      @yt.personal.identification Год назад +5

      If you want the most efficient way to do a task, ask a lazy person to do it.

    • @I_Love_Learning
      @I_Love_Learning Год назад +1

      @@Holofractalius Yep, if the lazu person is too lazu to use their brain, nothing will happen. You need to force them to do it!

    • @Cellottia
      @Cellottia Год назад +1

      ​@@Holofractalius My 6 year old grandson is very bright. So bright he'd rather use your brain to solve problems, not his own. I'm wondering if he has a future in AI now...

    • @aitehs
      @aitehs 8 месяцев назад

      Hungary sided with nazis in ww2. He was manager of some sorts, I suppose

  • @TonyHammitt
    @TonyHammitt Год назад +2

    It's nice that we humans can think of things to distract ourselves from horrible things going on externally. There are many ways to fix the brick foundry

  • @ricperry1
    @ricperry1 Год назад +2

    Just build a bridge at each crossing; or have a 1-way loop so there are no collisions, just onramps and offramps. But that isn't a math problem. It's a civil engineering problem.

  • @vorpal22
    @vorpal22 Год назад +36

    I knew K_3,3 and K_5 were nonplanar, but it had never occurred to me to think how many crossings were required to draw them on a plane. Has this problem been studied on any other surfaces? I know K_3,3 and K_5 can be embedded on a torus (and hence any surface of higher genus), and as for nonorientable surfaces, the Möbius band (and the Klein bottle) and the projective plane.

    • @bonsoonlin
      @bonsoonlin Год назад +10

      Just a thought: Despite not having the crossing number cr(G) for a given graph G, an upperbound N will tell you that G can be embedded in a surface of genus N. Since such a surface will have N "handles" which can serve as bridges when you embed the graph G, which allows you to avoid crossings. So to me it seems the problem of crossing number is equivalent to finding "the best surface" it can be embedded in.

    • @beardedboulderer2609
      @beardedboulderer2609 Год назад +9

      Robertson and Seymour actually have one of the best theorems of graph theory (I think): For any surface T, there is a finite collection of graphs H such that a graph G is T-embeddable if and only if it has no h-minor for any h in H. For example, on the plane (S^2), H=K_3,3 and K_5.
      Following this theorem, if you look at minimal surfaces a graph is embeddable on (characterized by the number of holes in the minimal surface), this problems and the one in the video are equivalent.

    • @vorpal22
      @vorpal22 Год назад

      @@beardedboulderer2609 Thanks for the heads up! I will absolutely check out that theorem.

    • @JohnDoe-ti2np
      @JohnDoe-ti2np Год назад +2

      There is something called the "toroidal crossing number," which is what it sounds like. If you look at papers on that subject, you'll also find some work that has been done for other surfaces.

    • @mobius32
      @mobius32 Год назад +3

      @@beardedboulderer2609 came here to mention the Robertson-Seymour excluded minor theorem! Nice work.

  • @lennybla6922
    @lennybla6922 Год назад

    It's incredible how I could listen to James "Weasley" Grime all day long

  • @gcewing
    @gcewing Год назад +2

    The optimum solution to the 3+3 case is to build your brick factory on the surface of a coffee cup.

  • @MatthewBrown1994
    @MatthewBrown1994 Год назад +6

    What I would do is make it so instead of multiple tracks crossing, I would have the spot where the crossings would happen cut out and replaced with a single track on a turntable so that you just orientate the track on the turntable to align with the track you need to use.

  • @JerryCrow
    @JerryCrow Год назад +3

    James has the most clickbaity problems. He seems like the most interesting mathematician. Can't believe i've watched him for over 10 years.

  • @Matt-zj2hq
    @Matt-zj2hq 4 месяца назад +1

    taking notes for my next Factorio run

  • @DoDoENT
    @DoDoENT Год назад +6

    The crux of the story is that mathematicians should do more manual labor - this will generate new interesting problems and sometimes solutions for them.

  • @deliciousrose
    @deliciousrose Год назад +12

    Love it when Dr Grime talks about classic problems and graphs! Bonus point if it's not proven yet.
    I like to watch the post-credit (post-sponsor?) scenes showing outtakes or bloopers. Too bad this one has none, haha...

  • @joeg451
    @joeg451 Год назад +3

    After Pal Turan was finished, all of the forced labour in that camp was done by a single Australian man (Futurama reference)

  • @JimmyLundberg
    @JimmyLundberg Год назад +1

    3K,3S is no problem if you have a large enough coffee mug to build on.

  • @PunmasterSTP
    @PunmasterSTP Год назад +1

    You’re kiln-ing me with these extremely fascinating videos!

  • @nowymail
    @nowymail Год назад +3

    You have only so much space for a factory. Paving everything with rails is a bad idea.
    1. More wheels under the trolleys will make them more stable. Redesigning the track may also help.
    2. Dividing the factory into several parts, with their own furnaces and storage (2x2). Making them back to back in an alternating pattern (checkerboard) will add more flexibility, but won't create any crossings. No chaotic tracks. Easy to expand in the future if needed.
    3. Discarding the rails altogether.
    4. Making storage units bigger to limit their number.
    edit:
    A checkerboard pattern makes one kiln for 4 surrounding storage units, and vice versa. IMO more than enough flexibility to cover all the needs.

  • @SeriousApache
    @SeriousApache Год назад +1

    Anything: (exist)
    Mathematics: "And that's a problem"

    • @asheep7797
      @asheep7797 10 месяцев назад

      Bro's been watching Numberphile for at least the past 5 years.

  • @minxythemerciless
    @minxythemerciless Год назад +2

    The obvious solution is to have storage units linked by a single track so you deliver to the first unit and if required the cargo is transferred to another unit. Same deal with kilns.

    • @bitsandbobs42
      @bitsandbobs42 Год назад +2

      There's only a couple of tracks that don't need to cross

    • @RamsesTheFourth
      @RamsesTheFourth Год назад +1

      Then the mathematicians would have nothing to eat!

  • @MathPickle
    @MathPickle Год назад +2

    There is a mistake in the problem description or a better solution is possible. At 2:39 we see that multiple crossings over the same point are only counted once. At 3:17 we see that curved tracks are possible. Given these two precedents, the partial "optimal" solution at 5:45 can be beaten by (for example) getting rid of intersection #7 by running the 4-5-6 track through intersection #2 instead of creating a new intersection.

    • @MathPickle
      @MathPickle Год назад +2

      I've just looked at the original problem. Pál Turán would have counted eight crossings at 2:39. This is a happy mistake because it gives rise to other rich problems. For example - for a bipartite graph with straight edges what are the minimal number of "crossing-vertices" created? At 2:39 we count seven of these "crossing-vertices."

  • @tylerduncan5908
    @tylerduncan5908 Год назад +2

    This is kinda trivial but you can always bound the number from above by creating a roundabout, but only if you allow that type of intersection.

  • @zacharybarbanell1064
    @zacharybarbanell1064 Год назад +8

    At 2:37, the count of crossings is reported as 7, but typically I think of such problems as disallowing three edges crossing at a single point - is that actually part of the problem, or just a simplification?

    • @TlalocTemporal
      @TlalocTemporal Год назад

      That must be disallowed, otherwise all graphs could be solved with only one or two crossings. Just send everything into the rail vortex.

  • @Krekkertje
    @Krekkertje Год назад +2

    Just connect all points in a circle and have the train drive around in circles and make it stof wherever it needs to load/unload

  • @ragnkja
    @ragnkja Год назад +6

    If you have more than six kilns and more than six storage units, you’re probably firing the kilns continuously enough to designate half the storage units (rounded up) for unfired bricks and the other half (rounded down) for fired ones.

    • @parthon
      @parthon Год назад +1

      Haha, but the problem is if the 6 kilns are all specialised to one type of brick, and all the storage units needed an equal mix of all 6 brick types. I don't know who would ever do this insanity though.

  • @turnerburger
    @turnerburger Год назад +6

    Dude was forced into slave labor and still managed to turn it into a mathematical exercise, absolute legend

    • @rtpoe
      @rtpoe Год назад +2

      Using your brain like that helps keep you sane. There are PLENTY of stories from POWs about such distractions.

  • @MoosesValley
    @MoosesValley Год назад +2

    If you connect all of the Kilns and Storage Units to a large Round About (does not have to be circular or symmetrical), then there are no track crossings. However, this introduces other issues, such as the travel distance will be greater between many locations.

  • @builder1013
    @builder1013 Год назад

    I love how they just casually have their channel's stats on the wall behind them

  • @reddcube
    @reddcube Год назад +1

    Crazy that in 3D space it’s always possible for lines to never cross. Only 2D plane has this crossing problem.

  • @burkino7046
    @burkino7046 Год назад +18

    The realistic solution is to just reuse the tracks. You can just make a roundabout or go through another point.

    • @ColonelSandersLite
      @ColonelSandersLite Год назад +2

      Yep. Use a combination of wyes and through stations. Loading and unloading is done on a siding, not the main line. Even including a freight station for raw material input and finished product output, you can solve this with no diamond crossings at all.
      It's not really the spirit of the mathematical question though.

  • @sbdsoill
    @sbdsoill Год назад +3

    When you want to learn so bad you’re willing to help the enemy directly

    • @Cellottia
      @Cellottia Год назад

      Ouch! But who says he told The Management about his thoughts? Perhaps he only spoke about this after the war. (I got that impression from the intro, but when this problem was first published wasn't stated in the video.)

    • @sbdsoill
      @sbdsoill Год назад

      @@Cellottia the implementation of it kinda implies what he did with the info

  • @randomalbum9879
    @randomalbum9879 Год назад

    Oh snap, Singing Banana is still at it, all these years later! I'm so happy about that :)

  • @shahinza
    @shahinza Год назад +1

    Excellent explanation thank you so much.

  • @TECHN01200
    @TECHN01200 Год назад

    3 kilns and 3 storage units is a tradition around here. Grant Sanderson enters the the video with his coffee mug!

  • @erock7073
    @erock7073 Год назад +5

    We should use the z axis, use a little tunnel or bridge over the crossing points!

  • @makse10
    @makse10 Год назад +2

    I appreciate the mathematic angle. Though, the first thing I thought of to solve an increasing number of kilns/storage units was either using the locations as stations which could be passed through, or to add a main line where most travel would take place. At that point, however, it'd be an issue of throughput instead of an increased chance of mishaps(Accounting for the possibility of operator error, as well).
    Lovely video, regardless.

  • @GladionD.Pierce
    @GladionD.Pierce 8 месяцев назад +1

    the rubiks cube has been unsolved ever since James started on numberphile...

  • @hvglaser
    @hvglaser Год назад +12

    Would love to see a sequel to this that includes more dimensions, or plots the scenario on the surface on a sphere or manifold.

  • @Arturino_Burachelini
    @Arturino_Burachelini Год назад

    add sidings to each node, add switches where needed, you'll need 0 crossings.
    Crossings themselves can be nodes of their own for larger cases

  • @lua-nya
    @lua-nya Год назад +2

    You know, it's kinda nice to see floor division outside of programming.

  • @bitsandbobs42
    @bitsandbobs42 Год назад +1

    Not everyone's paths crossing matters, just a few. It's a matter of who's paths are crossing where because you can't eliminate paths crossing everywhere, but not all paths need to cross either. ✌️

  • @titleloanman
    @titleloanman Год назад +12

    Why couldn’t you arrange them in a large circle, make a smaller circle of track inside that circle, and then have every kiln/storage unit attach to the circle? Then the number of crossings is exactly equal to the number of kilns and storage units, and you can get to every point on the graph.

    • @sszone-yt6vb
      @sszone-yt6vb Год назад +4

      I guess we can say, going "through" another kiln-storage is not allowed, you can only have point intersections with other paths.
      I think you can bring the number always down to 1 (counted naively) by doing that. A column of kiln and a column of storage with all of their connections routed through a point in the middle.

    • @QuantumHistorian
      @QuantumHistorian Год назад +3

      It's implied that only two tracks can ever intersect at a given point. Or, equivalently, you're counting the number of times tracks cross, not the number of places where there are 1 or more crossings.

    • @titleloanman
      @titleloanman Год назад +2

      @@QuantumHistorian I’m not understanding why this applies. If you have a circle with spokes coming off to each destination, you still only have a series of single points of intersection. They’re not all intersecting at the same point - they’re all converging to the same circle. Like a roundabout.

    • @ddognine
      @ddognine Год назад +4

      @@titleloanman Think about it this way, do the paths between different kiln/storage pairings have to share a portion of track/circle? If so, that is not allowed.

    • @sszone-yt6vb
      @sszone-yt6vb Год назад +4

      @@titleloanman I think to see QuantumHistorian's point, draw the various travelling paths from kiln to storage in different colors and see that the colors intersect many times. By his implied rule those would add to the intersection number.
      Though these implied rules do feel a little adhoc from the viewpoint of the original problem and also because these rules are only telling you after you've finished your drawing. In order check pairwise intersection completely you kind of have to look "globally".

  • @MultiPunci
    @MultiPunci Год назад +16

    I love it when mathematicians make theoretical conjectures out of real life problems, rather than addressing the practical issue and fixing the rail switch mechanisms

    • @DonkoXI
      @DonkoXI Год назад +4

      This is basically all we ever do. Even with math. We'll see a math problem, think about a pattern it has and formulate a new problem and get lost trying to answer that one instead.

  • @RamsesTheFourth
    @RamsesTheFourth Год назад +4

    I would desing the factory such that one kiln would be connected to one storage unit, and then the storage uniits would have separate tracks to connect between other storage units. I dont think you need so many tracks in brick factory :D

  • @tlou34
    @tlou34 Год назад +1

    I love visual math videos better than the numerical ones

  • @janesk1
    @janesk1 Год назад +1

    mathematician's solution: graph theory
    real world solution: adding a lid over the carriages

    • @Cellottia
      @Cellottia Год назад

      You're the first person to say this! You must have a unique but very sensible brain!

  • @joshuaespinoza8325
    @joshuaespinoza8325 Год назад +1

    or just add a third node, as a distribution point. so every kiln goes to that one point, and from that one point to every storage. you could unload and reload carts at the distribution point, or have some sort of rotating mechanism that can seamlessly transfer a cart from one rail to another. like a carousel. maybe a crane. who cares, there's plenty of ways. and this way there would be literally zero crossings.
    alternatively, make the rails and carts more robust so that they dont topple at the crossings in the first place.
    the perks of being an engineer over being a mathematician

  • @GalliadII
    @GalliadII Год назад +1

    I wounder why they did not use a relay point. Basically a storage in the middle where all kilns connect to. A set of workers who were tasked with unloading stuff that arrives from the kilns and distributing it into the storage units. or...just have a bigger storage unit.

  • @TheCiddan
    @TheCiddan Год назад

    This is not an indictment on the channel, presenters nor the intent of this video - merely a personal reflection. For me, hearing about WWII forced labor and kilns, followed by someone gleefully attacking a maths problem made it extremely difficult to focus on what was being presented. Still, I very much appreciate the initial attribution.

  • @RFC-3514
    @RFC-3514 Год назад +2

    The description wasn't very clear about whether you're trying to minimise the number of _track crossings_ (i.e., the number of places where tracks cross each other) or the number of times _carts_ have to pass over a crossing.

  • @rgsiiiya
    @rgsiiiya Год назад +2

    But seriously.... if you introduce the length of the vertices (tracks) as being important (minimize the time it takes to move the bricks) combined with the time penalty of navigating the cart over an intersection (node).... The problem becomes more practical perhaps. There may be scenarios where the length time value exceeds the node crossing time value, so crossing is the better option. And vis-a-vis where the length time value is more efficient, so perhaps going a longer distance is less time expensive than another crossing.
    Would love to see that model! 🙂

  • @zxana
    @zxana Год назад +1

    the obvious solution to me is to have the kilns connect to a ring that disperses to every storage unit so you would have x number of crossings as number of units at least for the bricks to storage units the number of carts in the ring doesn't matter as long as you loop around the storage units everything can run in a single direction and there will be no collisions.

  • @JustATakit
    @JustATakit Год назад +2

    Stack them in a spiral staircase like design. With a center elevator

  • @jjamespacbell
    @jjamespacbell Год назад +1

    Solution: Put tracks in 3D pipes and you can connect as many as your need.

  • @DuskMoment
    @DuskMoment Год назад +3

    For tracks a turntable would have been handy.

  • @bottlecap6169
    @bottlecap6169 Год назад

    Wow, I was just reading about this problem yesterday!

  • @flobiish
    @flobiish Год назад +1

    @9:00 The computer chip seems a more reasonable application of these maths. The diagram @2:33 counted the 3 way crossing is counted as 1 intersection and the original problem was a derailing solution attempt. In a computer chip, that crossing would require 2 intersections, but 3 layers worth if confined to the same place. It could be lowered back to 2 layers if one circuit moved back down and to the side.
    For the original problem though, wouldn't the invention of the track turntable have been more practical? You could just have all the tracks meet in the middle, and build one turntable. Turntables don't have the problem of derailment when well constructed and well operated.
    Note: I know this is a maths channel and I love the channel. My point wasn't to question the maths, but the initial problem.

  • @michaelpayne8600
    @michaelpayne8600 Год назад

    Solving this is easy, describing it (as I can't drag and drop a picture) will be more difficult. Draw two circles one inside the other, make the inner circle much smaller than the outer circle. Place as many kilns around the inner circle as you wish and place as many storage buildings on the outer circle as you wish. Connect the inner circle to the outer circle with as many tracks as you wish but 5 or 6 would probably be sufficient. The connecting tracks should be arched in such a fashion that they leave the inner circle at a tangent and connect to the outer circle at a tangent, they merge with both circles but never cross. Think of the connecting tracks as being half of the dividing line on a yin yang symbol. The exact angle that the connectors meet each circle can be tweaked in such a manner as to always provide 3 wheel stability minimizing the possibility of the brick carts becoming unstable. (Similar to driving your car of a curb, you do it at an angle allowing one wheel to drop at a time rather than both if you approached at 90 degrees) This hub and spoke design will allow any number of kilns to connect to any number of storage buildings with minimal connecting tracks and ZERO crossings. Efficiency is increased as multiple facilities can be accessed by a single connector by simply continuing around either circle allowing you to chose the most expedient routes. The connecting lines can be accessed for travel in either direction by simply pushing past a junction point then reversing.

  • @realityveil6151
    @realityveil6151 Год назад +15

    This is a lot of work because the tracklayer did a shoddy job. the solution here isn't to break your brain with crossings, but to punish the tracklayer and make him do it again, but better.

  • @nateg7502
    @nateg7502 Год назад

    Defeats the nuance of the problem. But imma just build my factory along a straight line, storage and all

  • @atalibacarpes
    @atalibacarpes Год назад +1

    How many studios Numberphile have? They're always in random different places. There's no formula to calculate this chaotic pattern.

  • @pixelprincess9
    @pixelprincess9 Год назад +3

    Imagine a prisoner coming up to a guard and showing him a mathematical model to make the work camp more efficient.

  • @NGC-7635
    @NGC-7635 Год назад

    Mathematicians: People who solve lots of useless number problems but sometimes they accidentally end up being very useful

  • @CombatVombat42
    @CombatVombat42 Год назад +1

    2:39, it's 9 intersections, not 7, no? the cross in the middle is three tracks crossing at one "point" if you allow that you can always do it in 1 crossing.

  • @BinaryBolias
    @BinaryBolias Год назад +1

    Better crossings? No.
    Bridges? No.
    Cranes which can reliably transfer carts between tracks? No.
    Track which can rearrange itself to accommodate cart destinations? No.
    _Catapults to launch bricks to storage instead of using carts and tracks?_ *Yes.*

    • @BinaryBolias
      @BinaryBolias Год назад +1

      For computer chips you just install little silicon hands to flick the electrons between circuits.

  • @knightbeforedawn
    @knightbeforedawn Год назад +1

    As many have already said make a better crossing, problem solved.
    But aside from that why not use the 3rd dimension and make bridges? Or Instead of individually connecting each pair with its own track, maybe run a single primary track that can be branched off of.

  • @hganti
    @hganti Год назад

    Trivial solutions: If all points are allowed to be degenerate, zero crossings. Otherwise, put them all in a line. Also zero.

  • @tuskiomisham
    @tuskiomisham Год назад +4

    Tracks can also split into Ys, which makes this issue trivial.

  • @beefchalupa
    @beefchalupa Год назад

    2:00 "maybe i can put them in a circle" as he makes a square 😂

  • @solophiesoterica
    @solophiesoterica Год назад

    While not a mathematical solution… the practical solution is a central turntable.

  • @srwapo
    @srwapo Год назад +2

    Forced labor camp in WWII? How do you MAXIMIZE the number of crossings to slow everything to a crawl?

    • @ragnkja
      @ragnkja Год назад +1

      Also, maximise the length of the tracks, and make sure you use the storage spaces as inefficiently as possible without obviously taking up more room, such as having to move fired bricks out of the way to load up the unfired ones.

    • @phizc
      @phizc Год назад

      They (the nazis) probably did want the bricks though. They (the nazis) just didn't care about the working conditions (of the workers).
      Edited for clarity.

    • @ragnkja
      @ragnkja Год назад

      @@phizc
      The people who were forced to work there would have had other priorities than their captors.

    • @phizc
      @phizc Год назад

      @@ragnkja I edited my post for clarity. It definitely wasn't obvious who "they" were. 😄

  • @Bob_Burton
    @Bob_Burton Год назад +1

    The hexagon calculation at about 11:00 does not make sense to me. The slope of the line joining 2 points depends on which end you start at so how do you decide ?

    • @ragnkja
      @ragnkja Год назад +1

      You always choose the leftmost point as the starting point. If there is no leftmost point in a pair, you start at the lowest point and that is defined as infinite positive slope.

    • @joleneonyoutube
      @joleneonyoutube Год назад

      because the Romans were backwards and decided reading left to right was correct so now all maths happens that way

    • @ragnkja
      @ragnkja Год назад +2

      @@joleneonyoutube
      It’s not so backwards if you remember that the script was developed for ink rather than stone tablets, and that most people are right-handed.

  • @Defaultuserseven
    @Defaultuserseven Год назад +1

    Hi idk if you’ll see this but thank you for your videos and keep up the great work

  • @PaulBernard365
    @PaulBernard365 Год назад +1

    The brickyard is a poor selection to illustrate the "connections and crossing" problem.
    The layout with hundreds (not 5 or 6) of brick molding houses, raw material storage houses, kiln houses and finished brick storage houses is to make a large circular track around the circumference of the buildings or through the middle of each building which are also arranged in a circle. The rail cars can then be loaded and unloaded inside or just outside each of the buildings. The track will be close enough to each of the building regardless to their function to allow for service, picking up materials, dropping off materials, baking the bricks in the kiln-house then offloading them again to the storage house. This loop of a track would never cross itself, while allowing for continuous brickmaking. It will also merge off and onto the main railway so rail cars loaded and staged on the circular track can be pushed onto the mainline track and picked up by the scheduled engine. This model seems to be the most efficient, produce the least number of crossing for any n building count.

  • @jordansmith1541
    @jordansmith1541 Год назад +3

    What if you could merge lines rather than cross them?

  • @Stev386
    @Stev386 Год назад

    Fantastic graph theory video analysing non planar complete and bipartite graphs. It's curious that at the solution for the crossings of the complete graph problem, it tends to a somewhat arbitrary denominator of z(n) -> n^4/2^6 as n -> inf..