There are actually 8 roles in Valorant
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Chamber duelist
How? Lol. Show me one chamber ability which gets you into site
Chamber doesnt necessarily have abilities that help take site aside from his Headhunter (E)
He may be able to be used aggressivly as if he were a duelist but he is not self sufficient as in he doesnt have blinds, stuns, smokes, mollies, etc. that would help him take fights
As a sentinel, his kit enables him to hold a site, which is why he is not purely a duelist
Yeah nerf chamber
😂@@gendeks_
@@gendeks_ chamber doesnt need another nerf bro
I would divide sentinels into area deniers and stallers. The only stallers are Sage and Deadlock because they can easily slow rushes and control the pace of almost any game. Stallers should probably be used with an area denier so you can watch flanks and stuff.
I would also split Sentinels into 2 different categories.
For controllers, I personally don't consider Viper as a controller. I mean, there is only one map pool where both Breeze and Icebox make Viper a reliable and consistent solo controller. Thus Viper is for me a stall agent, meaning that there is only 2 type of contrôllers : solo controllers and supportive controllers Astra and Omen can solo smoke, it is barely the case for others.
@@Weska13 the thing is viper is different on attack side. She has insane lurk setups which sage and deadlock obviously dont have. She is her own category
I agree
Deniers is badically a slower, it stops them which also slows them down if they really wanna push site or flank
I would divide them to barrier and map controllers
Barriers would be of course sage and deadlock who have walls and have strong stall utility
Map controllers are cypher kj and chamber with their trips, alarmbot and turrets allowing them to hold large amounts of map control by themselves.
Duelists are split into Dive and Duel.
- Dive consists of Agents that can rapidly take map control and create pressure. This includes Jett being able to dash relatively safely into her smoke and Raze being able to satchel in with her utility, creating and denying space. Neon is what you would call the "healthy version" of a Dive Duelist, however she also needs a better understanding of where to throw her utility to be effective. Decent in a vacuum, but mostly ignored in the face of the other Dive Duelists.
- Duel consists of Agents that can contest sightlines and take direct engagements more effectively than most. This includes Phoenix who can do everything but is stuck to a local level, Reyna who has a blind to set her and/or her team up and gets rewarded for taking fights, and Iso who is like Reyna, but trades some of the kill reward for more utility.
- There is also Yoru who can flex between these two categories, with an absurdly powerful movement ability at the cost of being risky as well as needing good preparation and timing.
Initiators are split into Recon and Execute.
- Recon consists of Agents that can reveal regions of the map to gain information. This includes Sova with his Recon Dart and drone, and Fade with her Haunt and Prowlers.
- Execute consists of Agents that aid their teammates in taking control of an area by disabling the enemy in some form. This includes Breach who can clear out areas or sightlines, as well as KAY/O being able to prevent utility counterplay to an extent.
- There is also Skye, who has a Recon baseline but trades some of that hard information for a heavier Execute-style, and also just happens to be able to heal multiple teammates to 100HP in a couple seconds. Gekko is similar, where he is almost entirely a Recon Initiator, but due to his utility requiring retrieval, all of his momentum is forward, so you can't sit back and get information for the most part, you have to play as an Execute.
Sentinels are split into Active and Passive.
- Active consists of Sentinels that need to be proactive when it comes to enemies taking space. This includes Sage and Deadlock, both of which can block movement on regions of the map with their walls. Sage also has the Slow Orbs to stall enemies even more, but has nothing else to stop enemies and instead helps fix teammate mistakes with healing and a resurrection. Deadlock on the other hand has utility that's more so designed to literally kill executes, with the Gravnet stopping all momentum dead in it's tracks, and the Sonic Sensor punishing anyone who runs in without clearing it, not entirely different from how people play off a Cypher Trapwire.
- Passive consists of Sentinels that can rely on their utility to hold space for them. This includes Killjoy and Cypher, who both have utility that will get info at least 95% of the time that an enemy crosses it (counters mostly consist of Omen and Yoru). They can either leave their utility alone to get info or play off of it with gunplay and/or other utility.
- There is also Chamber, who is dead center between the two sub-roles. He has the Trademark to passively cover one angle, while he actively controls another with his Rendezvous and guns.
Controllers are actually the only class that can't be split into two categories like the others. Brim and Astra are similar, both purely focused on controlling areas instead of having other gimmicks, while Omen has a playstyle that leans more towards a Duelist, and Harbor is straight-up a Controller-Initiator hybrid, getting his teammates out under cover is his whole thing (as long as you end up with one that doesn't try to play him like Brim or Astra). Then there is Viper, who is easily the best Controller in the game with the one caveat of "her smokes aren't flexible," which is why double Controller comps became a thing in the first place and why Viper is ALWAYS part of it. Set-in-place, controllable smokes, usable from any range to create questions and map pressure is invaluable on it's own, and this all ignores her Snake Bite being the only molly in the game you cannot ignore when executing somewhere due to the vulnerability it gives, as well as the instant decay from her smokes.
I think we could classify Controllers in two roles
Control Lurker, Co-Ordination Controller, General Controllers
Viper and Omen are lurking controllers they normally are alone passively taking space and are often tricky [Like they're hard to get a read on] as well as being able to go anywhere and place their smokes anywhere while they go do other things around the map, that thing being lurking. They are able to passively take space and info starve at the same time. Asta also fits into this role but she requires alot more co-ordination than others.
Co-Ordination Controllers are Controller that either need another Controller or a lot co-ordination [a lot more than average] to play in general, such Harbor and again Asta, you normally don't see them till higher elos and require correct timing to play them at a high level.
General Controllers would just Brimstone, has smokes doesn't really do much of anything special, other than just having a general role
@@Silverwolf_XVI being able to lurk doesn’t really put you in a different category, it’s like splitting Initiators into “who is going out with the Duelist(s)” and “who is supporting the entry with utility”
defining categories by general playstyles is too vague compared to categories being based off of a specific style of performing the role, the easiest example to point out being Sentinels, with one half actively denying space, and the other passively denying it
@@KodaWPLSH I can see your point but that's how really controllers are defined...either they're lurkers or they need another controller to bring out their full potential.
@@Silverwolf_XVI you COULD phrase it that way, but it's extremely vague and gets murky when you apply it to everything else in the game just the same, it still seems more effective to define niches in roles instead of niches in playstyle
@@KodaWPLSH I understand your point for sure.
I would divide sentinels into space holders and push stallers. The space holders are KJ and Cypher, which can lock down an area and keep it. While the push showers are Chamber, Sage, and Deadlock, who can slow a push but can’t hold an area by themselves, chamber can have trips and take fights, Sage has slows and walls to slow them down, and deadlock has her wall which takes time and the trips which make the walk.
Deadlock can hold a site by herself, you just have to use her right. she is great at defending sites, her problem comes on the other end of things.
@@Nootasaur yeah after the deadlock buff, I suppose you could categorise deadlock along with cypher and killjoy
@@ryukocantsnipe6257 Deadlock can hold a site by herself but cannot be classified with kj and cypher as they have guarenteed info with the trips and alarmbot or turret and however deadlock only has her sensor which you can just sneak by.
@trumpupforthelayupohblocke9679 with deadlock u have to hold an angle with ur body. Her design was made to be intuitive and hold pushes. That's what riot said and intended
But peep this right whether or not u stall or hold you are still denying the opponents that space they are trying to push
Why does jett look weird on the thumbnail
bro i just realized 😭😭
harbor is most definitely a line smoker
All divisions imo:
Doolists:
-Dive doolist - raze, jett
-Not die doolist - reyna, iso, phoenix
-Troll unless good at this doolist - yoru, neon
Initiators:
-Flash initiator - skye, breach, kayo
-Recon initiator - fade, sova
Controllers:
-Wall controller - Viper, harbor
-Astra
-Goated controller - brimmy, omen
Sentinels:
-Whole ass arsenal in pocket - Chamber
-Poocket heller - Sage
-Buff pls - Deadlock
-Rat - Killjoy
-Even bigger rat - Cypher
rat and even bigger rat 🤣
rat🤣🤣🤣🤣
As someone who plays Rat and Even Bigger Rat, your tears and rage sustain me xD
Phoenix is duelist/wall controller.
Dive Duelists
-Raze
-Jett
-Neon
Flash Duelists
-Yoru
-Phoenix
Combat Duelists
-Reyna
-Iso
Flash Initiators
-KAYO
-Skye
-Breach
-Gekko
Scan Initiators
-Sova
-Fade
Wall Controllers
-Viper
-Harbor
Dome Controllers
-Omen
-Brimstone
-Astra
Flank Sentinels
-Killjoy
-Cypher
-Chamber
Stall Sentinels
-Sage
-Deadlock
this is so true, id divide them the same way
Did it better than the video
Muuuuuuch better
sage and deadlock are different form the other three. sage and deadlock can stall while all other sentinels can hold map control so its like stallers and area holders
I think the 8 roles are as follows good duelist, bad duelist, good initiator,bad initiator, good sentinel, bad sentinel, good controller, bad controller
after watching the whole video i have come to the conclusion that chamber is too strong and is in urgent need of a nerf
Ikr I think we should give him a tickle gun instead of his deagle and binoculars as opposed to the op
@@xxeroc and his trap stops people so we can tickle them non-stop
I would separate them by active deniers and passive deniers. Cypher, kj, and chamber(to an extent) deny space passively with their util being set up pre round and just sitting there waiting for something to happen. Deadlock and sage are both active deniers in that they are waiting for something to happen before using util. Of course deadlock does have trips but they are better for stopping a push rather than denying space.
I always categorized controllers by space takers and space holders, whereas omen and harbor are excellent at executing site, they lack a little bit at defending site, and brim and viper struggle a little bit with taking space, but can hold space(and spike) rather well. Astra is a mix of both.
I guess you can more accurately say I split controller into characters that “take control” of the field and characters that “hold control over” the field
WHAT HAPPEND TO JETT IN THUMB NAIL WTF
I think he faceswapped Iso and Jett
I would divide initiators into three and sentinels into two.
Initiators are setuppers: kayo and breach,
Infos: sova and fade
Solos: gekko and skye. These two can be played solo because they do both sufficiently
Sentinels are on the fly stall which includes sage and deadlock
And preexisting stall which includes the other three.
id say gekko and skye are hybrid info/setuppers
@@jrmyg1621 My point exactly
I'd definitely say for sentinels that u have your "flank watch" sentinels, which are sentinels that deny space but also watch flanks and deny entry to certain areas that aren't being watched like cypher and killjoy, then u have lockdown or supportive sentinels, which are sentinels that have more in the moment utility like sage and deadlocked or chamber
Feels so off hearing this voice talking about non Overwatch stuff
You dont explain what a line smoke really is and why harbor doesnt fit the same role as viper considering he can block off pretty much the same area if not better by having more flexibility? What makes viper a line smoke and not harbour?
İ would devide controlers to two
Sight denial:omen and harbor. Their only avle to deny sight from choke points
Push denial:brim,viper and astra. They can both deny sight an close off cloke points by using their mollys or suck/stun
Controllers:
Primary AStra,Omen,Brim,Harbor, Viper (ICebox and Breeze)
and 2nd smokes: Viper (Bind, Pearl, Ascent, HAven)
Senti:
lockdown/trip/map control: KJ, Cyper and Chamber
util/stall: Deadlock,Sage
i play fade as a damn duelist, its actually really good, you push with the cat, pop her haunt in a high place and sieze corner, taking area gathering intel and stunning enemines
I agree with the most part, IMO Astra is really really capable of beeing played alone so she fits into the dome smoker category for me, but i see the Point with harbor so yea
Also IMO the sentinel role needs to be split into 2 parts, sort or a flank denial / Info gatherer role for chamber, cypher and kj and more of a space denial / Push Stopper role for deadlock and sage, cause of the pure lack of flank watching tools and Info gathering deadlock and sage have (at least direct If yk what i mean, cause you technically still get Info If the sage or deadlock wall is getting broken etc)
yeah I think Astra is great on her own, Harbour though is probably only playable on his own in the 3 lower ranks and on the map sunset
i personally like to think of all the agents as multi category for most of them, like the category listed is their main role but they have like a sub role, like viper is mainly a controller but can also be a sentiel with the ability to lock down a site for a time for her team to rotate, and iso is a duelist but can use his util to initiate a fight with his team (or even a controller for him but hes kinda a lot). it kinda just makes sense to think of it like that and technically adds multiple more categories for people if you think of it as such, but considering you can play an agent like its one of any type depending on your playstyle it kinda makes sense
its as simple as:
Duelist: dive duel
Initiator: flash drone
Controller: dome line
Sentinel: stall trap
In my view, the 8 roles in valorant are
entry: jett, raze, neon, (yoru)
setuppper: phoenix, yoru, flash initiators, (gekko)
drone initiator: skye, sova, fade, (gekko)
smoke: omen, astra, brim, harbor
info denier: viper, (astra)
passive info: kj, cypher, chamber
defender: sage, deadlock, viper
reyna: reyna
Duelists:
- Spacetakers/Pushing/Entry Duelists: Jett, Raze, Neon.
- Contesters: Reyna, Phoenix, Iso, Yoru. (Yoru being a Flex between Entry and Contest.)
Initiators:
- Intel Agents: Sova, Fade, Skye.
- Executes: Breach, Kay/O, Gekko.
Sentinels:
- Active (Being the duelists that reward the team by participating in the fights.) : Sage, Deadlock, Chamber. (Chamber being here because his kit focuses more on taking fights.)
- Passive (Their utilities do the job for them.) Killjoy, Cypher.
Controllers:
Tbh, I think controllers cannot be grouped that much into sub roles because they're too unique with their kits that the only common thing with them are that they have a utility that block line of sights. But let's try to classify them.
- Large Smokes (Having the ability to smoke a large amount of area.): Viper, Harbor.
- Target smokes (The Dome Smokes we all know.): Brimstone, Astra, Omen.
Deadlock is a passive sentinels in my opinion
Harbor is honestly just a "Line Smoker" who needs a buff xD Or some kind of better utility
Astra can be used as solo smoker too. We've seen some pro plays with her played as solo smoker, and it wasn't bad at all. I don't think those agents were designed to be "smokers who can be played paired with another smoker". As you said, it's just the way pros play them. However I do agree there are two types of duelists and two types of initiator. This is also why we often have double-initiator meta at pro level, one enabling their team, and the other one gathering information.
I have my own 3 classes for controllers rats and pushers. Most people will say pushing as smokes is a bad idea but omen and viper need to push with spike while brim and harbor can stay back and cover flank and push later as well
Every sentinel is unique. Each one has their own quirk, cypher and his cages, chamber and his tps/2 guns, kj and her mollies, etc. Every sentinel is unique, you can't only divide them into one or two roles.
I would divide sentinels like strongholders and flank limiters, kind of strongholders take out space of the map to move using abilities to slow the push (sage and deadlock) and by the other hand the flank limiters use their abilities to stop lurks by critical fragments of the map, taking out information or slowing down the lurking
I think some characters might be in 2 or even more categories, for example
Jett and chamber are the only agents that can snipe properly so i would give them a "sniper" role
Jett can be either a space taker but also a sniper and etc
Sentinel can be divided
Stall pusher(naking enemies have a harder time taking site)-Sage,Deadlock
Information gatherer(mostly for watching flanks can also gather information where the enemies are as long as nearby in their utilities)- Cypher,Killjoy
Hybrid-Chamber(, cause he can act as duelist to take fight first but can still gather information if someone's flanking
Totally agree with this
Yeah but then the video needs to be changed to 9 different roles and then the thumbnail would look weird
@@_Iceey It's fine he can just make another video and delete this he even said to comment what should the sentinel role be divided into ^-^
I like dividing sentinels into trap sentinels and guard sentinels. Trap sentinels have their traps as the primary part of their defense whereas guard sentinels have more reactive methods of defending. Cypher and Killjoy are the trap sentinels since the way they hold an area is through using traps that are highly consistent. Chamber, Sage, and Deadlock are guard sentinels since the main way they hold space is by guarding the area with reactive util, for Sage and Deadlock this is their wall while for Chamber it's his guns. While Chamber and Deadlock both do have traps in the trademark and the sonic sensors, these traps aren't quite enough on their own to effectively hold space and aren't the focus of their defensive utility
I would say there is a secondary/super role which transcends any of the role designation, which is the lurker. The difference with lurker is that it only partially depends on their utility, namely whether it can be used from a distance or not, or whether the agent is self sufficient and not necessarily vital for team play (ahem reyna and chamber).
Sage in a way can be an info gatherer. For example when you put a wall to hold flank, you can tell someone is flanking in the minimap if one portion of the wall is destroyed unless they have an agent that can jump over the wall like Jett, Raze, or Omen
I actually had to recategorize them myself in google sheet before. Now you made it official, thanks!
Duelists: Mobility, Sustain
Smokers: Large, Short
Senti: Fortress, Trappers
Initiator: Blinder, Scanner
Plus hybrids.
I knew its coach mills on this channel! Love ur OW Content!
controller split into 2 :
sentinel-controller
viper, brim. heavy smokes and molies can lockdown areas
initiator-controller
omen, astra, harbor. has cc utilities (flashes, stuns), harbor has push wall, and his wall slows
sentinels also split to 2
traps
chamber, cypher, kj. has traps for flank / info
staller
sage, deadlock. has utils to deny / stall oppenta to areas
also initiatores with beasts - skye ,gekko,fade
with kits - kayo,sova ,breach
i feel you cann divide smokes into two sorta opposing categories - proactive and reactive. proactive basically being ones who are able to move with their smokes if that makes sense(sorta like being able to push onto site with them), while reactive ones being ones you can, well, react with. i would put harbor(moving walls you can push with, on the go bendable long wall, and the orb you can throw into place) and omen(tp for movement, smokes you can basically moving with you and the blind) in proactive. for reactive im thinking theyre kinda like sentinels, placing their stuff down and waiting, so id put astra(stars you have to preplace, pull and concuss that kinda play like kj nades with an alarm bot, tho you can argue the fake smokes can also kinda be used as a push) and viper(the wall you cant pick up, that and the orb which you *react* with and the snakebite). as for brim he's kinda inbetween - has a stim as a proactive, but a molly like a reactive. i guess the scales push a bit more towards proactive cause of the smokes you can place on the run and the reactive ult is an ult so you wont be using it most of tyhe time
Controllers: Mapers or ReGrounders (Astra, Harbor, Viper): they affect the map itself changing it's shape or effects, I got based on their ults. And (Brim, Omen) Stopstumpers: They can set up plays with their smokes like the tunnel of brims and omens tp, but at the sale time they set limits with the molly or flash, stoping rushes.
for the initiators, the sub category names should be initiator because they initiate 1v1's and the other one would be recon like Sova's recon dart that gathers info
as far as duellists go i can agree with the spacetaker category however i feel like Reyna and Iso are less duellists and more juggernauts with their util that allows them to either mitigate or regenerate damage they take and both snowballing off of kills. which does kinda leave Phoenix in a weird spot since he does have damage mitigation but his kit is a blend between controller and initator when not used to regenerate health.
This might be a stretch but I mean Sage does gather info when walling since once people attempt to break it you know of their presence, similar to how a chamber trip works
I like how you divided Duelists and Initiators. I would just divide controllers into Primary(can be played solo, Viper, Omen, Brim, maybe Astra) and Secondary (Harbor, and Astra and Viper some maps) Finally sentinels probably Space delayers(Sage and Deadlock) and Space deniers(Killjoy, Cypher, and Chamber)
Isn't Sage's wall useful for intel as far as giving you an indication when it is broken on the mini map?
I would divide sentinals as the lurkers and the supports. For example if you are playing cypher or deadlock and maybe chamber you should lurk in attacking but if you are killjoy or sage you should stay with your team and support with your abilities like heal or mollies for clearing the corners.
Yoru can do anything. He’s everywhere all at once.
aight, lemme just change a few things...
Duelist:
Dive Duelist, Flash Duelist, Frag Duelist
Initiator:
Flash Initiator, Info Gatherer, Setup/Support
Controller:
Dome Smoke, Line Smoke, Support Smoke
Sentinel: (All have space denial btw)
Trapmasters/Info Watch,
Barriers/Stalling,
[Also Chamber, ops just kinda exist to hold space natively]
not all of these fit strictly for everyone, anyone could mix and match
I feel like Kay/0 should be a setupper and information gatherer hybrid because his knife can clear space but can also give u information about remaining enemies in that area
kay/o is a duelist and you can't change my mind
the only reason he's categorized as initiator is because of the knife but his kit is very close to phoenix and you can even play him as phoenix if you'd like (minus the healing ofc)
This actually makes so much sense. I love dueling and the aim part of the game so, naturally I didn’t really feel comfortable on Raze or Jett, or agents like Yoru where you’re playing more of a utility game than a shooting game
Sage can also be classified as an information gatherer, albeit passively. If she walls of an area, you know that there are no enemies past that point till the time the wall stands. That is information in a way.
Now obviously some could make argument that enemies could jump/tp over the wall but same could be said for alarmbot, cypher and chamber trip trips as well. Someone could smoke off the trip and then pass them.
I believe that when it comes to controllers rather than having roles I believe that they have optimal play cases. For instance I believe that harbor and omen are pseudo duelists as when both are played very aggressively they nearly fall into the duelist category. And when it comes to viper and brim although you considered them in different categories I consider them both pseudo sentinels. As their stall potential is very good just map dependent. And then astra I place separate as a pseudo initiator or “setupper” to be more specific. This is why double controller comps can be very good as you can take one of the pseudos from different categories and mix and match to get a good mix of what you want. I think this is why we see viper + another smoke at the pro level because she has overall the best stall. Mixed with an omen, harbor, or astra but you will not see viper brim. Because they each are smokes but when played a certain way show much different characteristics. (This is why I think Tenz is doing so well on omen as he is a pseudo duelist with enough utility to help himself and the team. As he is used as a space maker.
viper acts like an assistive smoker and more like a sentinel in some maps as split, bind and lotus
I mostly agree with the video aside from with controls. Starting with initiators I would instead divide them as initiation and scout roles. Initiation class starts the battle for the team (breach, Kay/o, etc) while scouts gather information and look ahead, this just more firmly places skye in scout class. For sentinels I divide them as blockers and punishers, punishers know where you are when you enter their site and punish you for pushing them (cypher and killjoy) while blockers slow down the oncoming push (sage, chamber) this is mostly important in lower elo where it’s important to remember where the punisher is as most people just won’t push that site. For control, I don’t personally like dividing them by smoke type as that’s more a map dependent choice, like on breeze where you almost need a wall smoke, I instead classify them as battle controls and cover controls. Battle controls are right there with the team, making fights easier and taking them (omen, brim, viper, clove) while cover controls either immediately cover a spot when it’s threatened (astra) or just block everything so the opponent cannot see (harbor) they are very focused on just not letting the enemy gather intel viper does kinda fit both here but I generally consider her more of a combat control with the mollys, I could see it going either way though.
And finally, I think there are even more subgroups that encompass agents from multiple “roles” like the infiltrators (omen and yoru) the healers (skye and sage) blinders (gecko, Reyna, omen, etc.) the flashers (yoru, phoenix, skye, breach, etc.) the flushers (raze, breach, etc) among others, these categories tend to focus more on just 1 ability an agent has but can be important to think about on certain maps.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this too.
Dive duelists, contact duelist
Recon initiator, flash initiator
Main controller (Omen, Brimstone), and accessory controller
With senti it's difficult, but I kinda split them into lurk and anchor. KJ and Chamber are kinda tied to their util while everyone else can set and forget in a way. Deadlock is a hybrid because she should ideally be close to her trips to play off them.
so i think with sentinels, they primarily deny duelists, thats is their job per say. And with sage, i think her wall is sort imformation gathering based on the fact that attacking it makes a ton of noise. but that does require the sage to be quite close to it.
i think for the controllers you could break it into lockdown smokers vs adaptive smokers in the sense lockdown smoker can use more utility quickly to keep a certain spaced blocked off longer and have utility to keep space vs adaptive smokers are those who can place smokes anywhere they want and can do it more on command than the others so lockdown with be viper and astra because they can just leave utility on sites and keep lots of angles smoked and brim omen and harbor work as adaptive bc they have the variability on command. viper and astra dont fit in adaptive these because they have lots of utility to control areas while keeping angled smoked while the others just have quicker smokes that can be reliably casted but cannot be quickly casted to re block those areas.
I like to divide the Sentinels into Lurkers/Anchors.
Anchors (Sage, Killjoy, and maybe Chamber) are those that can essentially lock down an area and hold off the enemy at least long enough for the rest of the team to rotate for support
While Lurkers (Cypher and Deadlock) are those that can be more mobile, setting traps up in key spots while also moving to others areas for possible flanks
Sage orb can gather info too if the enemies walk on it and someone's near enough to hear it.
In other games there are overlapping roles and I guess here we need it too. For example you put Viper to line smokers and Phoenix and Neon fit that category despite being Duelists. I think we cannot divide an existing category to two cause the agents fits more than one category right now too.
Controles i would divide them in line, dome and charging smokes, i bet that the next controller will have charging smokes like viper but with domes instead of lines
for the sentinels i would say kj and cypher are bastions while chamber and sage are guards cuz cypher and kj have stuff you drop and leave for the whole round where chamber and sage keep their utility closer to them
For me, I'd divide controllers into three categories:
1. Controller-Duelists: Omen and Close
- They can be aggressive and can kill easily. They can solo.
2. Controller-Sentinels: Viper and Astra
- They set up in site, hold, and are passive. They place their smokes and stars then wait.
3. Controller-Initiator: Brim and Harbor
- They help push (stim and harbor's walking wall). Both of their ults are for pushing as well.
Sentinal Division:
Chamber: Duelist
Sage & Deadlock: Entrance Inhibitors (their walls)
KJ & Cypher: Information Gatherers or Offensive Defenders (gather information with util but their utility is primarily aimed towards damage or alerting them to enemy locations rather then stopping them from pushing entirely)
I would like to point out that Astra and Viper were meta (solo) within triple initiator for a year and a half because they were Essentially played as sentinel controller hybrids. Keep in mind this was also peak chamber meta, but I think we’re taking to much credit away from astra. Because these two smokers excel at space denial AND sight line denial, I would argue they should be grouped together under a different name such as Adaptive smokes. Keep in mind they trade their adaptability for uptime (astra with 25 sec recall cooldown, and viper with her own cooldown). I would argue harbor is the only smokes in the assistive smokes category.
This would also likely need to change the name for the other two’s (brim and omen) category. If that were the case, I would likely call it origin smokes. Primarily because their job is more straight forward and consistent in the fact that their smokes and utility aren’t as adaptable, but are a very strong foundation to how the team would play.
Edit: finished thought
If you put neon with Jett and raze then you can do the same with harbor and astra. Either create the list with more groups or keep it at 7 without the third smoke group. Also chamber belongs in the dueler group. Great Video
i think harbor and viper are in the same category both as line smokers and assistive smokers as there are a lot of dome smoker centric maps where u can play a viper as a secondary smoker not primary, same kinda for harbor
I would also give sentinels the Passive Info role as a cypher trip kj alarm bot or turret gives info with out doing anything
i will die on the hill of omen being a duelist idgaf
erm, well actually, the slow orb gives a sound queue I someone tries to move inside it
Buffing cypher into initiator
There are two ways to get info as sage. Footseps being louder on ice, and when they break a wall you can see it on the map.. it isn’t as useful info but can still be used
Here's how I would put in the roles:
Duelist (Diver and Fighter Duelists)
- Jett and Raze are considered Divers as their kits are used for taking up space and suppressing the enemy team.
- Phoenix, Reyna and Iso are considered Fighters as their kits only benefit them and puts emphasis on taking 1v1 duels.
- I would consider Neon and Yoru as a Diver/Fighter hybrid because Neon has the ability to cut an area with her wall and suppress with her stun, while Yoru can take up a space with his flash and teleport and also provide info with his Ult.
Initiator (Suppress and Info Initiators)
- Sova, Skye and Fade obviously falls under the Info category as they give the team information on enemy locations.
- Breach, KAY/O, and Gekko are Suppress agents as they have abilities that disrupt the enemy team like stun, suppress or blind.
Controllers (Area Denial and Stall Controllers)
- Viper and Harbor are Area Deniers as their walls block certain spaces and prevent peeking enemies gathering info.
- Astra, Brimstone and Omen are Stall Controllers as they can stop pushes since they can put their smokes from everywhere whether delaying or stalling an attack.
Sentinels (Defensive and Active Sentinels)
- Cypher and Killjoy falls under defensive, while they can stall flanks on offense they work best on the Defender side denying pushes.
- Active Sentinels are expected to go with the team, primarily Sage as her utility focuses on supporting the team.
- I would put Deadlock and Chamber as a hybrid due to their kit needing to be active but also viable for defensive plays.
Imo the roles are: movement duelist, duel duelist, flash initiator, info initiator, dome smoker, line smoker, agro sentinel, background sentinel. An agro sentinel is like chamber or deadlock who are more fight based wheras kj, cypher, and sage play back and staying alive is much more important than getting a kill because the util is so important.
probably divide controllers into 1. Map controp and 2. Enemy control. Whether it's based on their smokes or other abilities.
Sage gathers intel by hearing the foot steps in her slow even if they are shift walking.
The way I subcategorize agents is pretty similar to the ones stated. However, I have a slight difference on how to describe and label them.
Duelists:
- Movement Agents: Jett, Raze, Neon (Fast Paced)
- Duel Agents: Reyna, Iso (Opportunity Paced)
- Flexi Duelists: Yoru, Pheonix (Flexible)
Initiators:
- Ability Agents: Kayo, Breach (Planning-Focused)
- Reconnaissance (Recon) Agents: Sova, Fade (Info-Focused)
- Flexi Initiators: Skye, Gekko (Awareness/Support-Focused)
Controllers:
- Rush Agents: Harbor, Brim (Smoke usage is defined by the pace of entry, shorter up time of abilities in comparison to the control class)
- Hold Agents: Astra, Viper (Smokes used to put consistent pressure/hold, Able to stall pushes with abilities)
- Flexi Controller: Omen
Sentinels:
- Stall Agents: Killjoy, Deadlock (Kj is pretty self explanatory. Deadlock is a stall agent because breaking her wall takes time, her trips stuns and hinders movement, while her nade stops movement)
- Denier Agents: Cypher, Sage (Abilities deny the space enemy wants to take freely. Enemies would have to break and alert the agents if they want to push through)
- Chamber. I dont even have an explanation for him HAHAHA
My oppinion on duelists categories is this
I see them in these sub-categories:
Flex duelists, entry duelists and hybrid duelists(which is both sub-categories).
The flex duelists are agents who are meant to only take fights in order to make the attack or defend round way easier no matter if it's 1v1, 1v2 or 1v3, and these agents are:
Reyna
Phoenix(can be considered as hybrid when he ults)
Iso
The entry duelists are agents who can easily entry site in order to seek corners and give info for their teammates, these agents are:
Jett
Raze
Neon
Hybrids duelist are agents who can fill both roles depending on the agent pick from the other teammates, the only pure hybrid is Yoru, but Reyna can also be considered as hybrid even though her abilities don't fill the requirements for her to be a hybrid(except when she ults)
sentinals: holders and deniers. some hold a space and some denies its access by utility, sage and deadlock can deny access, chamber, killjoy, cypher can hold.
duelists: spacetakers and duelists
spacetakers can fight as well as enter a site to distract the enemy, jett neon and raze. duelists can rush upfront the site to take duels.
controllers: backsite controllers and frontsite controllers. harbor should play upfront as its utility is better to allow entry for agents and backsite are like astra who block vision and hold sites with utility
initiaters: info gatherer and setupers like he said
sage's wall can gather information my guy
I would divide sentinels into
Punishers: (KJ, Cipher and maybe DL) that can take advantage of separated players getting in the side
Holders: (Sage) that can only slow the aproach
Chamber is Chamber own role
Well
In my opinion the 4 roles have sub-roles
because some characters can be used in one way or another
For example, Chamber is a sentinel but because of her skills she seems more of a duelist.
I would divide the sentinels into info stallers and space defenders
Info stallers are cypher, KJ, chamber They have the abilities to geti nfo where enemies. Using cypher's tripwire and camera, KJ's alarmbot and chamber's camera (forgor name) and teleport thing (also forgot). As the teleport thing would be useful for checking enemies nearby if you are looking at one direction. Cypher and KJ would take an area and defend it while also gathering info Sage and deadlock would be space defenders with Sage's wall and slow orb and deadlock's wall and trip. Deadlock could be in info stallers but I'm not entirely sure.
What would you do with Stealth Agents? Ones that can evade sight and lurk?
Such as cloakers.
Like an Assassin Agent?
What sort of Category would you put them in?
I'd split controllers in a way that implies an immovable object vs an unstoppable force type dichotomy. Harbor and Astra with their very short smokes don't make good immovable objects because after using their whole kit there's still like a minute left on the clock, whereas Viper's renewable smokes, Brim's long lived smokes, and Omen's *almost* indefinite ability to smoke off one area make them able to suffocate a choke point in such a way that you have to burn utility to execute, not just time. On the flip side, the unstoppable force controllers are going to be like astra and Harbor, harbor being able to cut the map into tiny fractions to make it impossible to stop a push without making yourself the one using utility to pass through a smoke, and Astra's ability to set up aggressive space taking in a way to force people to play carefully around her stars or get overwhelmed by Astra utility and duelist space taking. This of course leaves Brim and Omen with the capabilities of having somewhat of an unstoppable force type playstyle, but not nearly as effective because they can't force defenders into uncomfortable positions as effectively since there are so many comfortable positions, and of course Viper as almost not even in the aggressive smoker role as once her wall is down she has an orb she has to throw, making it a lot easier to play around her utility. Viper's renewable smokes and sheer amount of space the wall can cut off make her outclass every other immovable object, however. Since she can actually block off three choke points at once, given geometry aligns, and that being without losing all her utility for the rest of the round. This shows why the 'initiator-esque' controllers, since they don't have the ability to control space defensively like the others, they require someone who can fulfill that role to work best, as well as the split between Viper and Brim and Omen, since Brim and Omen are more viable as solo-smokers given their attack strength, but since they fall off compared to viper on defense, they're more often chosen to fulfill all roles of a controller to allow the team to fill even more roles, or the roles that they do *even better*
I think you missed something with Gekko... he both can setup and gather information if you use it well...
I mainly use Gekko for recon (info) with wingman and dizzy to check angles like in the corners and behind walls/boxes. they have a que where wingman follows the target and dizzy shoots the targets at the direction. Not just that, it setups them to get controlled (stun and flash). That also works with Thrash working like Skye dog but faster and better (detain). Mosh is basically molly similar to Kay/o.
He crosses the line in both roles as an initiator, except for one thing: limited range. They travel slow af in exchange for reusability.
"I'm iron one" by the way, I still hate Jett
arent Harbor counts as line smoker as well? his util has more flexibility than viper wall and it can also acts as a slow if anyone tries to invade the space you have taken
Dive: Jett Raze Neon Yoru
Duel: Reyna Phoenix Iso
Recon: Sova Fade Skye
Disarm: KayO Gekko Breach
Drapes: Viper Harbor
Smokes: Brim Omen Astra
Traps: KJ Cypher Chamber
Wall: Deadlock Sage
Sage slow gives a sound queue when people runs over it
You can call line/split smokes "Separaterers"
sage DOES have info gathering- her slow field clinks when you walk on it
I would divide sentinels in two groups: Back covers and spike shield
Back covers: As their name indicates, they cover areas to prevent the passage of the enemy and information. This group would include cypher, sage and chamber. Well, their abilities cover very specific areas and they are not capable of stopping the spike's defuse
Spike shields: These characters (Killjoy and Deadlock) are ideal for defending the spike and preventing it from defusing
I consider that both chamber and deadlock could have their own section as hybrids. Chamber being a hybrid between sentinel and duelist and Deadlock being a hybrid between sentinel and initiator
i mean the reason they probably did this is to keep it simple for newbies (would have helped be a lot since i didn't get overwhelmed by role classes), encourages personal exploration and manipulation of the character without inherent biases and honestly is something you can easily figure out when playing
tbh harbor fits into line smokers more then viper, since historicaly, viper wall is set in the same space every round to create lurk potential rather then smoking off a section of a map. She can be used for that *but* historicaly shes not
For me there's 3 sentinels
True Sentinels ; KJ and Cypher
Wallers/Dividers: Sage and Deadlock
Chamber:Chamber
Astra is most definitely a hybrid of a dome smoker and a line smoker. She can also go across the map. I'd say that she is probably the most powerful smoker in the game, definitely needs to be played more.
for real, saying astra needs to be played with another controller makes me mad because shes one of my mains 😭
Division is easy in the roles.
For initiators, we have recon initiators whose role is to find exact position of enemies. Only two agents are to fill the role. Sova and Fade. Then we have flash initiators, whose role is to actually flash for the initiation like Skye or Breach
For controllers, we have wall smokers/smoke throwers and dome smokers. Wall smokers are those which can deny the site information to an extent and also happen to have a throwable smokes. Harbor and Viper fill the category. Then we have dome smokers which are traditional smokes which can be placed like Astra, Brim, Omen.
For sentinels, we have proactive and reactive sentinels. Proactive sentinels rely on passive information to assist team like Cypher or KJ whereas reactive sentinels rely on active information to deny a site like Sage or Deadlock.
For duelists, we have the flash duelists/agile duelists and the bodyguards. Flash/agile duelists' main job is to provide entry for the team and agents like Phoenix, Jett whereas Bodyguard Duelists rely more on trades and winning 1v1 for the team like Reyna, Iso