About the Japanese translations of Remembrance of the Rot Goddess Since many are pointing out to check the translation, it seems pretty straightforward from Japanese as well Here's a link to a reddit post where they discussed it at length: www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/txerik/japanese_text_of_a_remembrance/ and here's a link to the actual Japanese text: kamikouryaku.net/eldenring/?腐敗の女神の追憶 There's also questions about if Radagon is Ranni's father: Yes, it's heavily implied that she is, same with Rykard, and Radahn.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
Both seem true to me. Being born of a single God seems to automatically qualify you for consideration but you can also be chosen based on some other qualifications.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
Maybe the term “empyrean” is a title that describes a stage before godhood. Think of it like the word “heir.” If you are born to the king and queen and are of pure royal blood (or one god and pure godly blood), you are an heir and a contender to the throne at birth. However, if the heir’s themselves are not fit for the throne, it is possible for the throne to be usurped by a third party, such as a scholar chosen by a noble for example. Perhaps being born of pure godly blood immediately qualifies one as an empyrean, but those of mixed blood that prove themselves worthy of godhood can be chosen by the two fingers to hold empyrean status as well
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
Native English speaker here (and British too) The Grammar in the remembrance of the goddess of Rot does imply that Miquella and Malenia are Empyreans because they are born of a single God - HOWEVER - the grammar does not imply that ONLY the children of a single God can be Empyreans... It's worth noting that neither Malenia nor Miquella appear to have shadows... which is another thing that sets them apart from both Ranni and Marika... and (I may be wrong here) but it's never suggested in game that Marika is the daughter of a single God either... Instead it is said that she was one of the Numen - which to me at least implies she was once mortal and achieved Godhood by becoming one with the Elden Beast. There is also a set of two fingers associated with all the demigods - not just the Empyreans, as the great runes are all found next to dead two-fingers. So that implies that certain demi-gods were rejected by the two fingers or that all of the sets of two fingers were slain before they could grant anyone Empyrean status except Ranni, Miquella and Malenia. My interpretation is that because they were the children of a single God - the two fingers decided that Malenia and Miquella were worthy of the title of Empyrean, but it also makes them susceptible to Curses or possession by other outer gods. For some reason Godwyn, Mohg and Morgott were not deemed worthy nor were Radahn and Rickard. Ranni was deemed worthy - but its never stated why.
I was also thinking about the Shadows of the Empyreans. I feel like,when you born from a single God,you automatically become an Empyrean.Because you born from a single God,you are one of the most powerful being in the Lands Between ( both Miquella and Malenia are really powerful,but Miquella's power is more implied because her curse of being a child forever). Now when you are CHOOSEN by a Two Finger,you have the potential for great powers,but you need some help,so the fingers give you a Shadow to help you on your destiny. Thats why Marika and Ranni have shadows,they are choosen by the Fingers,and once Marika reached godhood,she can breed Empyreans.And thats why Miquella and Malenia dont have shadows,they more like inherit the Empyrean power rather than "earned" it so to speak. ( sorry for my english,i hope i wrote it clearly :D )
Maybe they have to be female? As they’re the only one that can house the Elden ring/golden order? And that’s why Radagon was fused with Marika, so Radagon can house it himself which in turn gives total control over to the Greater Will They knew of Marikas Plan and it was the only way they could get rid of Marika with out losing complete control of the Lands Between
@@justwelsh Miquella is Male... and an empyrean - however you raise an interesting point... Miquella is depicted as a pre-pubescent boy - and is mistaken for a woman when he adopts the disguise of St. Trina... Perhaps Miquella does not age because the greater will does not wish them to grow to manhood. The question is... is Miquella still an empyrean having aged in his cocoon?
@@santiagojara8056 I dont think having a shadow is something an Empyrean can choose to have. As Maliketh Rembrance states:"Maliketh was a shadowbound beast given to his Empyrean.Marika's soul need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him." " These shadows are given to Empyreans,and they are unquestionably loyal,even though Marika betrayed him during the Night of the Black Knives.Now as Blaidd loyal to Ranni,he became mad when Ranni took a different route and didnt want to serve the Golden Order. Iji says the following when you question about why Blaidd is in Evergaol:"There is something you should know. The Two Fingers gave Blaidd to Lady Ranni, as a faithful follower. Her very shadow, incapable of treachery. But if Lady Ranni, as an Empyrean, resists being an instrument of the Two Fingers, the shadow will go mad, transforming from a follower into a horrid curse. But such is his destiny. " Kinda how Maliketh gone mad after the Rune of Death was stolen and inbued it to his flesh and try to consume all the Deathroot.
Couldn’t it be both that being born from a single god automatically makes one an empyrean AND that an empyrean can be chosen? I don’t think the lore makes the two mutually exclusive.
Being born from a single god makes you powerful enough to be an Empyrean. Because they are so powerful, they are seen as naturally best for the job and acknowledged by the two fingers. Also if the two fingers/greater will deem it necessary, they could allocate someone else. But someone would have to be that powerful and seen by greater will as useful to their purposes
@@SurrealParkour The video already dictates that strength/power isn't the measure to become an empyrean, if this was the case Radhan would've been an empyrean.
@@vaultboy3706 Not all powers are equal. The Greater Will wants the Empyrean to replace Merica & Radhan wssn't chosen, possibly because he was cursed with the Red Hair of a different Outer God.
@@Calathil Radhan is marked with flame, with the Greater Will hates. The rot is ignored by the Greater Will; which still plays into your point. Thank you!
Seems like an empyrean is just whomever the fingers chose. Now what their criteria is, might involve a single god as a parent or whatever, who knows. But Ranni said she 'was' an empyrean. Seems like you cease to be one when no longer supported by the fingers.
Well she said she killed her empyrean flesh and that she wouldn’t be controlled by it anymore. It seems to me that that body itself is the empyrean. I’d guess she is no longer an empyrean because she killed the empyrean body.
@@BreakingTheGleipnir The grammar used for Miquella and Malenia is also in a tense that would normally be used to describe a situation that's over now. It's possible that all of them are just not empyreans anymore because things have broken down so far, but it's also possible that the choice of verb tense is just a reflection of how Ranni thinks of it. (e.g. if a woman in a fairytale says "I was a princess", in the sense that her parentage hasn't changed she probably still is, but she may be saying it in past tense because she's no longer living in a manner one would expect of a princess and no longer thinks of herself as one)
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
I agree with your take, it's both chosen and born from a god. The fact that once Marika turned rogue, the Greater Will didn't just replace her easily with another suggests they look for certain requirements (power level, acumen?) in the subject and the replacement cannot easily be found. This makes sense also as to why Ranni killed herself because if a replacement is easily found around the corner, Ranni's suicide will not do much to break the cycle. But by killing herself and Godwyn and starting a war where people were killing each other to fill the power vacuum, she's throwing a huge monkey wrench into the Greater Will's plan since they take a very long time to decide anything. When the Two Fingers went silent, the cron lady said it could take many thousands of moons (cycles) for them to make a decision, and you might not be around to hear it. You have to also consider, there are other gods out to exert forces on this land so they are also likely scouring the lands for candidates to becomes their own "Empyrean" and eliminating its rival's candidate by cursing them. (It's not even clear whether Empyrean is a word exclusively reserved for the Greater Will's emissary or if it's a generic term for any person appointed by the other gods.) I think all this suggest its both chosen and born. They are chosen for a list of reasons, and the base requirement is that it's coming from a god, e.g. divine bloodline. The more interesting question then becomes, WTF is Marika, did she have a virgin birth like Jesus and was she created by the Elden Beast or by some other mechanism?
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
I am inclined to think they are chosen, considering how champions seem to be picked by the outer gods. Such as, Marika being a notable person before, but was MADE a god by the greater will. So I am inclined to think that anyone chosen by the 2 fingers could also be an empyrean, their obvious preference being demigods. As per why, who knows? Maybe because they are powerful (granted that would raise the question of "why isn't Rhadan an empyrean?"... Good question.), or Perhaps they want people who they feel would be loyal... Granted Rhadan is also an outlier here. And Ranni is indeed a weird case as well for the case of "born of 1 God". It really does feel like it's some strange mixture of the 2 factors. As both arguments alone have that weird strange exception. So as said, I am inclined to think that it may be just up to the 2 fingers discrepancy as it's a pattern not supported by what is claimed, thus it's easier to explain it as "a force beyond our understanding making decisions and giving us 0 context as to why.".
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
0:36 "I'm here to show the game references and being neutral" 1:45 *shows a picture of Melina when mentioning the Gloam-Eyed queen* Apart from that, great video
Not the point but I love how Rennala, deeply connected to motherhood, is represented by the full moon. In celtic religions the lunar phases refer to the 3 stages of a woman's life, which are: Waxing (Maiden), Full Moon (Mother), and Waning (Crone).
This may be merely a coincidence or just Rennala's case. But trying to fit the other moon-connected female characters into it, Rennala is the Mother, Ranni could be the Maiden, and maybe Renna the Crone? Would be a cool touch imo
The "they are chosen" argument makes me wonder if the many Two Fingers throughout the Lands Between had different ideas as to what/who a true successor to Queen Marika should be. This was before the Shattering so either the powers that be were aware that Marika was up to something or they feared she might be overthrown or their vision of the world no longer aligned with how Marika was ruling. If they are not of one mind on the matter each Two Fingers could have supported a different candidate. Thus you easily get a situation where some supposed representatives of the Greater Will's vision say it comes down to bloodline while others say anyone they deem worthy can get the title. Of course if the Greater Will is giving various Two Fingers different and/or contradictory information then the problem goes all the way to the top. Nothing quite like a game of Telephone to muddle a message, especially when its a long distance call across a vast void.
I like this idea, because we know the Two Fingers take thousands of years to communicate with the Greater Will, so it is possible that over time, without constant communication, the different Two Fingers might have different ideas on who the God should be.
It's entirely possible that a "Two Fingers" can serve an entity other than the greater will, but it seems pretty definite that the Greater Will isn't involved much in actual day-to-day explicit decisions.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
@Sneekmuch Ranni elsewhere explicitly said that she, Miquella, and Malenia were each chosen by their own two fingers, and there's nothing in the Remembrance description that negates that. It only says that they're empyreans, but someone could say "This man is the son of the previous deceased king, and as such he is now king." and that would be accurate but leaving out a lot of details, in the same way that the remembrance leaves out a lot of details.
@Sneekmuch Ranni elsewhere explicitly said that she, Miquella, and Malenia were each chosen by their own two fingers, and there's nothing in the Remembrance description that negates that. It only says that they're empyreans, but someone could say "This man is the son of the previous deceased king, and as such he is now king." and that would be accurate but leaving out a lot of details, in the same way that the remembrance leaves out a lot of details.
It seems to me that an Empyrean is any demigod who was chosen AT THEIR BIRTH by an outer god. Hence why Mohg is not one, as he wasn't chosen until well after he was an adult. I don't think the parentage matters too much as long as there is at least one godly parent.
Ah, that make sense. Ranni with the moon, Malenia with the rot, Miquella with… sleep or youth, the Gloom-Eyed Queen with death, and Marika with… gold? Idk about Marika tbh.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
These are just my impressions of it. Empyrean seems like a title similar to the way prince and princess were used in some countries, ie a legally recognized candidate for the throne. Ranni says she was chosen to succeed to godhood. Those chosen to succeed to godhood but have not yet done it are titled Empyrean. And only those born of one god are eligible to become Empyreans just like usually only those with a King and Queen in their bloodline can be a prince/princess and become a king/queen. Grand Duke and Grand Duchess is another example of this from imperial Russia for the title of Tzar. I'm no lore master and haven't combed through every item description and Japanese texts, this is just what I got from playing the game.
In my opinion one can become an empyrean by either being born of one god or by being chosen by a two fingers. I head cannon that in other to be the Ruler or successor to the Elden ring one must have the backing of the two fingers, a Shadow companion, a rune and eventually a demigod consort. The player journey to become Elden lord shows us what are the requirements to become an empyrean we are chosen by torrent, we collect 2 runes and receive the blessing of the two fingers and then defeat the Elden beast and restore Marika and become her consort or either we become Ranni's consort
Ur correct The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
You dont become a god tho. You only become elden lord as a consort for the fractured Queen Marika. You are still a tarnished by the end but you become the lord of the age of fracture and nothing more.
i heard in another lore video that ranni morgott and mohg (i think just those 3) were like adopted demi gods. they werent demi gods when they were born but when radagon became the second elden lord they were given demi god status.
Likely both due to the fact that when I played elden ring I get the impression that they portray that while Marika and radagon were once two separate beings but as a cruel punishment by the elder gods ,ect they were fused into one being making them self productive parent and it's in my honest opinion that no one side in this respect the natural laws of life and death or freedom of choices like even FIA of elden ring does and no question ranni the witch does
While chosen Empyreans lack the holy blood from their ancestors, perhaps they can be trascended into "Empyreanhood" after a rite of ascension, that could probably entail drinking the blood from a real god or being infused by it. The Two Fingers are mysterious in their ways but will always reconsider chosen ones if the blood heirs to their predecesors are flawed and unfit to reign.
Coming from GRRM, I assumed the single god parenthood was the cause of the rot and young curse, to mirror the Targaryens going nuts because of the incest.
I agree. More important then looking at item descriptions and dialogue of characters is understanding or having some knowledge of who is behind the pen. The crippled twins were born from incest while the omen twins are bastards. In fact I think all omens are bastards but that’s a whole different topic.
To me it makes more sense that the fingers choose the demi-gods at birth, maybe bc something about them is special to the fingers, and they are allowed to be a candidate. I just find it hard to fully believe that Ranni was made from the egg when she has red hair, but also her mothers magic. Maybe they both just pumped their energy into the egg and that made her, which could make it a single god. But to me I think Empyreans are just chosen at birth
It's probably both, but more like in a monarchy type. You have born heirs of a king/queen that can be chosen in a testament, then the heirs that come from another marriage. I don't know if it's been told, but I wonder if Godwyn was also an Empyrean before his death ? Maybe he was supposed to be THE heir of Marika's "throne".
That "born from a single god" reminds me, this game has a lot of mistranslations. Anyone tried to do a cross reference on other languages on these debates?
I think that an Empyrean is born but not specifically of a single god. My understanding is that to be an Empyrean is to be born with the potential to contain the power of an Outer God. From the characters' perspective they are chosen but the reality is they are discovered to be Empyrean (Without the fingers to tell them how would they know). Ranni is the daughter of Radagon and Rennala, no shenanigans, who was born with the potential to contain the power of an Outer God. Miquella and Malenia's situation is basically saying, "These two came from an Empyrean and nothing else so obviously they are Empyreans." Ranni had two parents but one was an Empyrean and she took after that parent in that regard unlike her brothers.
It seems like both answers are right. Empyreans really deal with like of succession. The greater will can choose these candidates through the fingers. One can also assume that children born of one god would have string claims to be next in line and by default would be chosen seeing how they are in a way a clone of that god. Melania/Miquella are the only ones born from Radaricka (assuming Radagon and Mericka are the same person) and fill that role
I had a crazy idea, but what if being an empyrean is a dominant trait that both Merika and Radagon have. This would explain how children of Rannla are mostly non-empyrean, but still have a small chance of being born as one.
I think the idea that she was born of the amber egg as a child born after Radagon left Rennala makes sense. Given her love for her mother but extreme distaste for her father, it could make sense. Plus the absence of her own great rune and the amber egg holding the Great Rune of the Unborn, a rune without a known demigod barer in possession of Ranni’s mother can’t be too much of a coincidence. If were the case, it would continue to follow that all empyreans are born of a single god, as well as explain Ranni’s cutscene in her mom’s boss fight a bit more. Another thing, Ranni specifically had to burn and rid herself of her empyrean flesh and body. The verbage around that event is specific about that to the point that there could be a conclusion that something about the body itself was what made Ranni an empyrean. That too would also lend to the idea that empyreans were born such. The chosen by the two fingers bit could be more about which outer god graced and chose them. So perhaps the scarlet rot god has a set of fingers that chose Melania or something like that. Of course I could be completely wrong, let me know if anyone has any thoughts!
When I read "born of a single god" I interpret it as is. Marika has already ascended to godhood. Since both parents are technically Marika wouldn't the offspring be Marika? At least genetically? So whatever requirements Marika may have met to be chosen as an Empyrean wouldn't Miquella and Malenia have it as well?
Then Why is Ranni an empyrean? Renala sure aint an Empyrean nor was she a demi god so how come her daughter Ranni is an Empyrean while her sons Radahn and Rykkard aren't? Simple the Empyrean is just a title not a race or something you get from being born to a Demi-god/Empyrean.
@@Shane-gg3hl exactly. Born of one true god statement holds up for Malenia and Miquella since they are Radagon + Marika. But Ranni makes that statement fall apart because of Renalla.
I’ve seen theories around that ranni empyrean stuff saying that Rennala wasn’t her birth mother, that being Marika instead and she was given to Rennala around the time of radagon leaving her perhaps. It’s not a solid theory but it could explain the single god thing.
@@spencertang5155 i mean yes that would explain it sure but i dont see any evidence in the game to link Ranni to Marika in that way. Honestly that theory holds little to no weight. Unless iv missed something but even Malenia and Miquella may have just been given the title at birth not nessasarily "born" as an Empyrean
An interesting thing to note that I never see anyone bring up: Miquella is this game's Gwyndolin analogue with the whole St. Trina may have been a young girl or young boy thing, and every single Empyrean other than himself is female. It may just be that female Demigods are the only ones that are Empyrean, and any born of a single God will always be born Empyrean (Both a demigod and female). Regardless of that potential link, I just think Empyreans are a naturally occurring oddity. They can be created directly by being born of one god, or it can just be luck of the draw like with Ranni and the previous Empyreans like the Gloam Eyed Queen. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole idea is that the Greater Will sends it fingers out to each of the Empyreans of an age when it is time for a new vessel, the fingers encourage the Empyreans to fight so that the strongest one comes out on top as the new vessel with the greatest of champions at their side (The importance of a "Champion" for the new vessel also seems very important as every Empyrean we see also has a specifically male "Champion" with the sole exception of Melania who was Miquella's Champion, also interestingly turning the normal Female God Male Champion dynamic on it's head).
I think the meaning is not as complex as we made it be and that the crux of the problem is the translation: I believe that "born from a Single God" was actually meant to be ''born from One God" as in that one of the parents has to be a whole, fully formed God, as opposed to demigods (half-gods) and only person who fit that requirement is Marika/Radagon. Empyreans are just children of Gods who are able to ascend to godhood themselves and that's why in the game other outer gods are prying them to their side. We see the presence of multiple Outer Gods in The Lands Between, but it seems that having a full God as their vessel made the Greater Will a dominant one. That Empyreans are demigods who can ascend to full godhood is, in my opinion, also why there are Oracle Envoys who are said to appear heralding the arrival of a new God or a new age. They are in The Lands Between exactly because there are several demigods on a verge to become Gods. GW just wants to extend their age in The Land Between and new ruler who is a vessel of some other Outer god is, consequentially, the begging of a new age.
I believe Marika is the Gloam Eyed/Dusk Eyed Queen. It really makes us work for it though. Look at Marika at the end, red and black spear impaling her, imprisoned. Defeated. Who did that? Who uses red and black Rune of Death power? Well, Maliketh. Ranni tells us that chosen Empyreans have a shadow assigned to them which protects them, but also is able to and directed to destroy their Empyrean host if they go against the Greater Will. How does she know this? She saw it happen to Marika and Maliketh. When he defeated the Gloam Eyed Queen. Who is simply another name for Marika, hinting at her past as a Numen and denizen of the Eternal City. The Black Knife assassins are also from here. The Age of the Duskborn ending sees Godwyn as the Prince of Death rise to new ascendancy and it is said by Fia he will be reborn anew. I believe the Duskborn ending is Godwyn's ending. I believe the "Duskborn" is Godwyn himself. He is the Prince of Death. Born of someone aligned with Death and "Dusk" indeed. His mother is Marika. The Dusk Eyed Queen. Godwyn, a Prince. Marika, his mother, the Queen. The Beast Eye you get from Maliketh/Gurranq is purple/gloamy. We never see Marika's eyes. Or the left side of her generally. I believe it's her eye. Now who else has purple eyes we see, ever? Melina. Who is Melina? The daughter of Marika. Traits are often passed down in Elden Ring from parent to child, no? I bet Marika has gloamy purple eyes. Well, one left now. What does Melina talk about? Destined Death which is just the Rune of Death really. And flame. Sounds like black flame to me. Tied to the Godskins. What shape does Marika hang in? The shape of the Rune of Death. The Godskins served it, long ago. Marika was once made an Empyrean specifically because she was so powerful already in the world before the Erdtree. The host must be very powerful after all. Hewg is praying to himself, to Marika about her wish to create a Godslaying weapon. To kill a God. The Elden Beast. Who else made and knew of Godslaying weapons and arts? Well, the Godskins and their black flame. Flame and Death. With Maliketh keeping watch of the main part of the Rune of Death, and with the other half impaled in the Dusk Eyed Queen, pinning her to the Erdtree, defeated but not slain as per the item description, she needed another way to slay a God. That's Hewg's task given by her. It's worth noting that Fia, Deathbed Companion has a similar black robe we see Marika wearing, and we see the tattered remnants of her black garb when we find her in the Erdtree as well. There's a statue of Marika holding the twins Malenia and Miquella in the Haligtree region, she is hooded there like Fia. To me this just further ties her to aspects of Destined Death and proves she is the DEQ/GEQ.
I don’t know if Godwyn was an Empyrean, but my thoughts are that maybe Godfrey and Marika couldn’t produce Empyrean offspring. Rykard and Radahn are not empyreans either, and if Ranni came from the amber egg (which had a rune in it?) then that was after whatever change Radagon underwent, as it was his parting gift before he went to Marika. He was able to father Empyrean children with Marika. Radagon is the common link, and something happened to him that changed him.
Ranni said she was chosen. So I think either being of a single makes you eligible, and then if deemed worthy your chosen by the fingers, or maybe Ranni didn't know she was of a single God, and thought Rennala was her biological mother.
So imo there is way that both are true as you put it. If an empyrean is someone worthy to become a god as chosen by fingers then all is good. By being born of a single god, ie neither parent is mortal then by default by birthright you are already worthy to ascend to godhood. So in this case if Ranni is not empyrean by birth she was still found worthy, whereas the twins were worthy just by who there parents are.
Does "born of a single god" require that the god be in the world, or are outer gods allowed too? Ranni's strong connections to the moon seem pretty incompatible with Radogan, so what if the "single god" that created Ranni was the full moon when Rennala met with it? Definitely speculative, but I feel like it would fit Ranni's themes better than a lineage descended from anything of the golden order given how opposed she is to it
@@kiddeenotv903 this bullshit theory that everyone is trying to jam everyone else's throat is just to force feed everyone that Empyreans must be born of a single God. Stop with the nonsense.
Awesome lore! Does Ranni the youngest demigod (she has the smallest throne, her parents both tall)? Was she born by Rennala, or by amber egg or is it actually her twin (Unborn)? Did Rennala imprisonment by involvement of Radagon (the seal on the academy gate, the red wolf, and baby cribs in the ceiling..)? How's GW choose the successor Emperyan, does true borns from single god not enough (because afflictions)? Therefore it's passed to Ranni (who prefers the moon rather than GW)?
Ranni is older than Miquella and Melania. As they were born after Radagon abandoned Renalla and assumed the title of Elden Lord. (Publicly as Queen marika's consort, but in reality literally being a separate aspect of the same being.) It is strongly implied that Ranni was essentially born like Athena from Radagon/Marika, via the great rune of the unborn that Radagon gave Renalla, and essentially WAS the "gift" that Radagon left Renalla. (And Ranni's half alive, half dead, state is why Renalla has gone mad and is sitting, fixated on the rune, surrounded by mindless children. IE, she may be repeatedly trying to resurrect Ranni using the rune, but it doesn't work because only Ranni's body is dead and her soul is still alive and bound to a puppet.)
I think they are chosen by the 2 fingers. I dont think it has anything to do with other outer gods other than the greater will because miquellas whole thing is warding off the influence of outer gods. I personally think malenia and miquella were just instantly chosen at birth due to the fact they were born of one god, and I think ranni was chosen due to her ability to rule/intellect
Like,chosen to be born? That an option too,right? This would justify Marika, I guess. The greater will chose for them to be born to "assist" them,then effectively gave them their powers ?
It seems to me that both are true, chosen by the fingers or a *pure* descendant of one who already was a finger-chosen God. So Ranni is Chosen by the fingers, with Radagon planting her with Renalla on the fingers orders - probably in anticipation of Marika's betrayal - while Miquella and Melania were the offspring of Marika and Radagon and thus *pure* so also Empyrean, but more by Marika's ego than the Fingers design, hence their curses. I think Marika's talk of Radagon not yet being her is to do with them truly being one, but Radagon being more loyal to the Fingers, hence why he was the agent of the Fingers in creating Ranni and when she called him back, they became more one, but it didn't work out as she'd intended.
My opinion is that being born of one god automatically have Melenia and Miquella Empyrean status, but at the price of a curse. Ranni seems to me like is the biological daughter of Rennala, although her sorcery skills could be explained by her being raised by the quenn of the full moon even if she were not to be her blood. As for the fingers choosing Empyreans, they certainly tried with all the known ones, but this doesn't imply that the act of choosing them made them Empyreans, might very well be that they simply recognized their potential. So I think that Empyreans are born with higher potential compared to other demigods, and the fingers try to get them to do their bidding.
@@maldor56 thats what i said. Renalla + Radagon isnt born of 1 true god hence why i said i think 2 fingers chose who Empyreans are and they arent born Empyreans.
@@fishnutz5196 or I guess I haven’t thought of this what Renalla isn’t a god but radagon is. If Ranni was born of them she would still technically be born of one god.
@@maldor56 but if thats the case then every demi god would be born of 1 god since Rykard and Radahn also had Radagon as a father. And Morgott and Mohg had Marika for a mother. The only way Ranni can be born of "1 god" is if Renalla is her adopted mother. However there is no proof of this in any item or dialouge in the game. But yeah i have heard that theory aswell.
For me, it's both. My headcanon is that they are chosen, but if they are born of a god/gods, it's 100% that they will be chosen, they are "born empyreans". Being chosen might depend of how much "godly" blood the child inherits, so Ranni may have been born with more divinity in her blood than the other demigods. In Elden Ring, gods seem to be just vessels to outer gods, so it makes sense that the more godly they are, the better vessel they make. Being purely of godly blood might make them a free real estate to outer gods even before they are born though. (There's a theory that Miquella got afflicted by a "God of Sleep" of sorts, since he is most likely St. Trina.) Being chosen by a Two Fingers might be just letting them know, that they can become vessel to the Elden Ring/Elden Beast/Golden Order/Whatever. Or maybe they need to be chosen for an outer god to use them, and born empyreans get chosen right after birth, since they are an obvious choice. Ranni might've been chosen later, and then received her affliction (which might've been one of the incentives to cast her body away).
Let me give a good example the way I see it. John was put in the starting lineup up because he is the son of the team owner. David was put in the starting lineup because hes the best quarterback of team has. Each has their own respective reason for getting the same position.
I bet they're born and chosen before birth but if the outer god that needs an empyrean and there aren't any suitable being on the way they probably could make anything they want into an empyrean
i thought it was just those related to marika and since marika and radagon was the same person *a secret* that the definition is weird (but we dont know who actually knows that)
Perhaps, and this is just speculation, the condition of being born from a single god might mean they must first be a demi-god. But that an Empyrean is ALSO one blessed from birth by an outergod, chosen if you will.
What if Empyreans are simply beings whose parents are both Gods? In that case Ranni could be an empyrean because one of her parents is Radagon (=Marika=God) and her other parent is Renalla (Possibly goddess of the moon?) If Renalla is the "God" chosen by the moon that makes Ranni an Empyrean spanning two different outer Gods. Whilst Malenia and Miquella are Empyreans born of a single God
If they are chosen, why did they choose those, who do not support the greater will, instead of morgott I. E. To me this implies they are chosen very early, probably at birth, so birth and lineage seems to be an important aspect of becoming an empyrean.
I kinda don't fully agree with either theory. Ranni said that she "slew her Empyrean flesh" -- which means that it was a quality of her body. (Yet she's still able to usher a new Age, so I have questions) Also the remembrance gives you a sufficient condition to be an Empyrean, not a nessesary one. So I think that Empyreans are born, but we don't know the full set of conditions. There was an interesting theory, that Empyreans are actually numen purebloods or something like that. And it ties up everything nicely: like, if you are born from a single god Marika, who is numen -- then you are a pure numen offspring. And just as remembrance says, it makes you an Empyrean. But that's not the only option.
I agree with everything except the pure Numen part as I don't believe that would apply to Ranni if we assume the game hasn't lied to us about Rennala being her mother.
I believe both prerequisites are true. Elden Ring loves double meanings and multiple names for one thing, this is something we know. I don't think it's too crazy to believe both theories as a liklihood. Queen Marika was born of the Numen and The Greater Will chose her to be an Empyrean, the game says/implies this. Miquella and Malenia are Empyrean by birth rite, which the game states this. What I find more interesting is when an Empyrean is chosen/born(Though the game only mentions chosen) they are granted Wolven Shadows to defend them. As far as we know, unlike Marika, Radagon, and even Ranni, Miquella and Malenia being the only born Empyreans have no wolven shadow, or their's were killed before the events of the game due to their betrayal of The Golden Order.
There's a possibility that the various Two Fingers represent different outer gods, and if so they might have different policies. It might be that one specific faction is in the habit of supplying helper-wolves that double as security against betrayal, and the other ones do something else.
@@Eladelia This makes sense seeing that Empyreans are simply vessels for Outer Gods. Malenia we know is a vessel for The Rot Goddess, so I would assume an Empyrean can only be a vessel for a single outer god. Doesn't explain Miquella though, nearly nothing explains Miquella. We need DLC for him for sure.
Honestly I do feel like it’s kind of both. I think what qualifies them as the next line to be gods is the normalities that each of them have. Melenia was given blessings by the rot and her brother was given eternal Youth making him have a body of a young child and Ranni I can’t say since we don’t know much about her history before the events that transpired. In my personal theory for the reason they’re chosen by the two fingers is likely due to their ability to make great change in the land between . Like we saw this heavily with melenia when it came to the rot, where it heavily mutated everything around it change it or reshaping it and Ranni is a very gifted sorcerer and Melenia’s bother is very special. He was able to make various items that allow them def the the outer gods and even made a kingdom for those who are not wanted. The other I can’t say much since The only thing that we know is she’s tied with Destiny death and is the one that made the Godslaying apostles but that’s my Theory.🐱
Another great video on a topic that will be debated forever lol My current belief is that Empyreans are chosen, but having any amount of non-godly blood, like being half-human as most of the demigods are, disqualifies them from being chosen somehow. They don't necessarily have to be born of ONE SINGLE god, but they can't have a parent who ISN'T a god Which, given that Marika was an Empyrean as well, would mean that she was perhaps the child of one or two gods worshipped by the Numen back in their old world. (And for the conspiracy theorists out there, a fun speculation might be that she is the child of Gwynevere and her husband the Flame God Flann from Dark Souls, and the Numen are the descendants of the lords she led away from Anor Londo at the end of the Age of Fire)
@@brentgarrison6245 True! But, as discussed, there is some evidence that Rennala may not be Ranni's biological mother. She raised her, yes, and was more of a parent to her than anyone else, but it's possible that Ranni was never physically birthed at all and was instead created with the Rune of the Unborn. And as Radagon was the one who forged that rune, that could in theory make him her only "biological" parent
Just a few thoughts Empyreans may not necessarily just be either one of those two definitions, but rather to become an Empyrean you either have to be born of a pure godly bloodline, therefore being born from one single god makes you an Empyrean by default (Malenia and Miquella), OR you need to carry a "mark" of sorts of a god, like being chosen or cursed by an Outer God (Ranni being chosen by the Two Fingers). It would explain how Ranni was able to become an Empyrean after being chosen by the two fingers. That might also be why Ranni says that she had "slain her Empyrean flesh" which suggests that the Empyrean status is tied to the physical body, since despite her still being "alive" she doesnt seem to be an Empyrean anymore.
To people who think that an empyrean is born of a single god, have you considered Marika. We can assume that the only god begore Queen Marika was the Elden Beast itself. We also know that Marika is of Numen descent. Therefore I believe that anyone could be an empyrean. The description of Malenia's remembrance might just mean that when a child is born to a singular god, they automatically become an empyrean at the cost of being cursed. I honestly think this will eventually turn into the "Is Hornet void?" of the Elden Ring community. This comment was made while my lore knowledge was still bad. I agree with basically nothing this comment says anymore. Please take that into consideration.
One thing I can say is that there were DEFINITELY gods before Marika, as far back as the age of ancient dragons, far before the arrival of the Elden Beast.
I see an Empyrean as a recessive gene, like ginger hair or blue eyes. Marika and the gloam eyed queen are Empyreans. Most of Marika’s children are not, they don’t inherit the gene, rarely some do like Rani. Miquela and Melania are Empyrian because they are born of a single god, so inherit 100% of the Empyrean gene. This could also explain their afflictions, they’re essentially inbred so have defects. This is also a theme George R.R. Martin has used in his works before with the Targaryen’s in GOT. Being an Empyrean allows one to become a god, it’s a requirement, there’s no evidence that Marika or the gloam eyed queen were born of a single god. Marika had a people she belonged too before she came to the lands between, perhaps the Empyrean gene comes from them and they are simply the best people to become gods.
I wonder if in order to be born an empyrean, you have to be birthed from a single empyrean god. Like the title is inherited by offspring with pure empyrean blood.
The Japanese language around a "single god" follows the English pretty closely indicates it's a single-bodied/-personed god. Given that, it's hard to get around the implication that parentage isn't crucial to Empyrean status. (Enia also says all the demigods are descended from Marika, so...)
I don't think it is a grammar problem it more a logic problem A Empyrean can be born when it is from a Single god, So A(Born from Single God) imply B (Empyreans) But Logic tells us that when A imply B, does not mean B imply A A( number is bigger than 4, ie x > 4) imply that B (number is bigger than 1, x > 1) , A imply B is true, any number bigger than 4, is definitely bigger than 1, but the other way round, does not work always B imply A is not true when the number is 3 number 3 is bigger than 1 , ie X=3 > 1 is true, does not imply A. X > 4 So this is what I think, Born from Single god, is definitely Empyreans, but other than that, many other ways can make you a Empyrean, when the finger chooses you.
Likely a case of mistranslated text. But i would wager that Empyrean are chosen and anyone could possibly become a Empyrean. For example Ranni was likely chosen as a Empyrean once the Greater Will discovered the flaws and influence of other outer gods in Miquella and Malenia. Considering Radahn's and Rykard's great rule state that "the children of Rennala and Radagon, who became demigod stepchildren after Radagon's union with Queen Marika." to me implies that they were elvated /powered up to the level of a demigod. Though I am also under the impression that Radagon and Queen Marika were separate people in the beginning.
I believe that being an empyrean, regardless of the criteria, is determined at birth and is part of their physical being (which makes me think the 'single god' theory is more credible.) Why, you may ask. Well, I don't see why the night of black knives would be needed otherwise. The entire thing was Ranni's means of getting rid of her empyrean flesh, after all.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean. 1. Born from a single god 2. Chosen by the two fingers And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
@@sneekmuch Who is to say GEQ was not chosen as a result of the circumstances of their birth? We don't even know who it is. That doesn't actually tell us anything specific.
@@TenchiHawkwing I agree. Since we don’t know the GEQ’s parents (nor who the GEQ even is) we don’t know if they were born an empyrean or chosen to be one by the two fingers. All I’m saying is that based on the in game text from those two items that it is possible to be born an empyrean and also be chosen to become an empyrean. Edit: Since the Black Flame Ritual uses the word “chosen” I’m assuming someone chose to give her that title where as being born from a single god automatically gets the empyrean title. Also the in game files name for Melina is “MarikaOfDaughter” and with all the theories of her being the GEQ would align nicely with how the GEQ got the empyrean title. Not to mention Ranni once having the empyrean title as well but not being born from a single god if were to believe Radagon and Renalla are her true parents. Which would still confirm both ways to become an empyrean (birthed from single god/chosen by the two fingers) are correct.
It seems like Empyreans are all female except Miquella. As a matter of fact there are no female demigods that are not Empyreans. Miquella could be could be female as well ... kinda a similar businessmen as with Gwyndolin in Dark Souls. The Empyreans can replace Marika as a vessel for the elden ring which kinda implies that they should be female to have a male consort who will hold the tittle of the elden lord. So Mogh wanted to be an elden lord with Miquella as his Empyrean.
It seems that empyreans are all female, at least partly. That is, if one is to assume that Miquella has the same male/female duality that Radagon/Marika had when they became one.
Ranni says they were selected as potential gods for the coming age. It seems like it implies that it was well understood that this world should be moving from one age to the next, that the age of the Erdtree began and would/should one day end, and so they were lining up candidates for who was coming next (and it wasn't necessarily just the Greater Will involved. We know there was a past age of the dragons, but it never seems to be directly said whether the greater will was also somehow a sponsor to that age, or if there was some other outer god in supremacy at the time)
@@Eladelia agreed, do you then think that would be a point of conflict between the greater will and marika as she wouldn't want her age to come an end therefore instructing maliketh to hold the rune of death making her immortal?thats why she becomes known as marika the eternal?
I think that Empyreans are Empyreans because they have something special about them that makes the Outer Gods like them. Malenia's rot came from an Outher God and as you say Miquela was chosen by the Formless Mother to be a god so maybe they are just people that have a better connection with them. As to why Ranni is an Empyrean it could simply be by chance. All sons of Radagon and Rennala were demigods which means that Radagon was indeed a god but as it only was him only Ranni got the Empyrean genes so to speak. That could also explain why the remembrance mentions the being born of a single god thing. It's not expressing that Empyreans are born from a single god but it's saying that as they were born from a single god BOTH Miquela and Malenia were Empyreans, instead of only one of them
Hmmm... So this is my interpretation from the evidence in the video. Looks like the community is overthinking this. Both are correct but have created points that directly contradict each other. This means that there must be a third answer, an answer that allows both sides to coexist. Let the third definition of an Empyrean be: A person that has the potential to become a god. This is because being born or chosen does not fit with the criteria of all the known Empyreans in the game with evidence. As well as answers how Marika became a god in the first place, without having a god as a parent. But first we need to look at the problems of the other definitions. 1. Empyrean is Chosen Problem: If an Empyrean is chosen then, Marika, the Gloam-Eyed Queen, Ranni, Miquella, and Malenia are true Empyreans. It is a title that is given by a god. The video states that the counter-argument to this is the speculation about Radagon, which is really not good speculation, and is debunked by the video. Fortunately, the video introduces the problem with Mogh, and why he need Miquella to expand the influence of the blood god. This will be answered by the third definition/take/theory on what constitutes an Empyrean. 2. Empyrean is born problem: If an Empyrean is born, then the only true Empyreans are Miquella and Malenia. The glaring issue with this take/definition/theory is that the evidence of Marika, Ranni, and the Gloam-Eyed Queen being Empyreans are left hanging. Fortunately, for the theory there is no evidence that points that the Gloam-Eyed queen and Marika are not born from a single god, and just suggests Ranni to be a lying bastard. However, if we truly take all the dialogue, and remembrance notes are true, we can create allow another definition. That an Empyrean is a person has the potential to become a god. The Empyrean God-Potentiality Theory/Take An Empyrean is a person that has the potential to become a god. They can either be born with the potential or have it be discovered. To be born with the potential to become a god, one must be born from a single god (Miquella and Malenia). Yet there is an exception. For, other potentialities are hidden, and is only known if a Finger has detected it (Marika, Ranni, Gloam-Eyed Queen). This is why all the demi-god children of Marika have two fingers associated with them. It is to let the Greater Will know if a child has the potential to become a god or not. This also makes sense for other beings. The Gloam-Eyed Queen became an Empyrean after being chosen by the Fingers, as she has been detected to have potential. Further evidence supporting this theory is the 3 demi-gods chosen by the fingers. Ranni, Malenia, and Miquella were empyreans because the Fingers detected their capability of becoming a god. Their potentiality can actually be realized in the game. For Ranni, one just needs to finish her ending, to see her potentiality becoming an actuality, replacing Marika and becoming the Queen/Goddess of the Stars. For Malenia, one just needs to reach phase 2 to see her bloom into the goddess of rot. Finally, Miquella's potential can be read through Mogh's plan. Mogh needs Miquella to spread the influence of the Formless Mother as Mogh doesn't have the potential to become a god. Yet Miquella, has and he knows it. He is actually pretty much useless to the Formless Mother, yet was given audience because he's already in possession of the key to spread influence, in the form of Miquella. That is why Mogh wants Miquella so badly so that he can uphold the end of his bargain. Also, I'd like to speculate that the player too, becomes an Empyrean in the Frenzied Flame ending. As to become Lord of Frenzied Flame, you must have an audience with the 3 fingers who will grant you the power of the Frenzied Flame. This is also why Marika's clay structure decays after becoming the Lord of Frenzied Flame, as it signifies that she isn't god anymore. The player is, who is now a vessel for the Lord of Chaos.
“Each of us was chosen by our own Two Fingers, to succeed Queen Marika, and become the new God of the coming age.” No! Learn English people. Those three were not chosen to be Empyreans, the sentence said they were chosen to succeed Queen Marika. They, all three, were already Empyrean. When you set up a sentence and have one statement followed by a comma and another statement ending in a comma that second statement is on its own. Though usually qualifying the previous statement. And can always be removed from the sentence so you could still read and make a sentence without it. How English works, while it can be complex, is often very simple… see what I did with that last sentence and it’s structure? So, given what information we have gotten before, it clearly states an Empyrean is someone born of One God. And only an Empyrean can succeed Queen Marika. It clearly shows that’s what an Empyrean is, and they can or can not be chosen by a Two Fingers. If an Empyrean is chosen by the Two Fingers they get a Shadow. A spiritual companion and guide or chaperone. No to me the question is why and what are the Shadows, and who or what were Marika and Radagons Shadows, and the same for Melania and Miquella?
Empyrean, but not chosen by the Fingers. Only those chosen by the Fingers get shadows. So, Marika and Ranni. And the Dusk Eyed Queen, if she isn't somehow also Marika. Because those are the only three we've ever been told explicitly were chosen by the Fingers.
@@brentgarrison6245 Ranni explicitly states that each of them were chosen by their two fingers to be candidates. They have shadows that we just never see.
I think an Empyrean is chosen are basically female demigods. Miquellia who is also known as St. Trina could pass off as a female because of his alignment and the fact that he is of small physique makes it seem like he can be easily controlled so him being chosen as an empyrean because the two fingers thought he was a girl would not be farfetched
An empyrean is certainly a demigod with an affinity to an other outer god. So the greater will marks them an 'empyrean' so as to amalgamate and subjugate the aspects of other outer gods within its order and grow its own elden ring. In the case of Mohg, I do not think he has an affinity with the mother of truth as its successor, as Malenia does with rot. He needs to open a void to borrow the power of the formless mother.
About the Japanese translations of Remembrance of the Rot Goddess
Since many are pointing out to check the translation, it seems pretty straightforward from Japanese as well
Here's a link to a reddit post where they discussed it at length: www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/txerik/japanese_text_of_a_remembrance/
and here's a link to the actual Japanese text: kamikouryaku.net/eldenring/?腐敗の女神の追憶
There's also questions about if Radagon is Ranni's father:
Yes, it's heavily implied that she is, same with Rykard, and Radahn.
I could swear at one point the turtle pope says they are children of Radagon.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
Both seem true to me. Being born of a single God seems to automatically qualify you for consideration but you can also be chosen based on some other qualifications.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
Maybe the term “empyrean” is a title that describes a stage before godhood. Think of it like the word “heir.” If you are born to the king and queen and are of pure royal blood (or one god and pure godly blood), you are an heir and a contender to the throne at birth. However, if the heir’s themselves are not fit for the throne, it is possible for the throne to be usurped by a third party, such as a scholar chosen by a noble for example. Perhaps being born of pure godly blood immediately qualifies one as an empyrean, but those of mixed blood that prove themselves worthy of godhood can be chosen by the two fingers to hold empyrean status as well
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
Native English speaker here (and British too) The Grammar in the remembrance of the goddess of Rot does imply that Miquella and Malenia are Empyreans because they are born of a single God - HOWEVER - the grammar does not imply that ONLY the children of a single God can be Empyreans... It's worth noting that neither Malenia nor Miquella appear to have shadows... which is another thing that sets them apart from both Ranni and Marika... and (I may be wrong here) but it's never suggested in game that Marika is the daughter of a single God either... Instead it is said that she was one of the Numen - which to me at least implies she was once mortal and achieved Godhood by becoming one with the Elden Beast.
There is also a set of two fingers associated with all the demigods - not just the Empyreans, as the great runes are all found next to dead two-fingers. So that implies that certain demi-gods were rejected by the two fingers or that all of the sets of two fingers were slain before they could grant anyone Empyrean status except Ranni, Miquella and Malenia.
My interpretation is that because they were the children of a single God - the two fingers decided that Malenia and Miquella were worthy of the title of Empyrean, but it also makes them susceptible to Curses or possession by other outer gods. For some reason Godwyn, Mohg and Morgott were not deemed worthy nor were Radahn and Rickard.
Ranni was deemed worthy - but its never stated why.
I was also thinking about the Shadows of the Empyreans. I feel like,when you born from a single God,you automatically become an Empyrean.Because you born from a single God,you are one of the most powerful being in the Lands Between ( both Miquella and Malenia are really powerful,but Miquella's power is more implied because her curse of being a child forever). Now when you are CHOOSEN by a Two Finger,you have the potential for great powers,but you need some help,so the fingers give you a Shadow to help you on your destiny. Thats why Marika and Ranni have shadows,they are choosen by the Fingers,and once Marika reached godhood,she can breed Empyreans.And thats why Miquella and Malenia dont have shadows,they more like inherit the Empyrean power rather than "earned" it so to speak. ( sorry for my english,i hope i wrote it clearly :D )
Maybe they have to be female? As they’re the only one that can house the Elden ring/golden order?
And that’s why Radagon was fused with Marika, so Radagon can house it himself which in turn gives total control over to the Greater Will
They knew of Marikas Plan and it was the only way they could get rid of Marika with out losing complete control of the Lands Between
@@norbertcsaszar4746 I doubt Miquella would want shadows near them, and that Malenia is more than strong enough to kill them
@@justwelsh Miquella is Male... and an empyrean - however you raise an interesting point... Miquella is depicted as a pre-pubescent boy - and is mistaken for a woman when he adopts the disguise of St. Trina... Perhaps Miquella does not age because the greater will does not wish them to grow to manhood.
The question is... is Miquella still an empyrean having aged in his cocoon?
@@santiagojara8056 I dont think having a shadow is something an Empyrean can choose to have. As Maliketh Rembrance states:"Maliketh was a shadowbound beast given to his Empyrean.Marika's soul need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him." " These shadows are given to Empyreans,and they are unquestionably loyal,even though Marika betrayed him during the Night of the Black Knives.Now as Blaidd loyal to Ranni,he became mad when Ranni took a different route and didnt want to serve the Golden Order.
Iji says the following when you question about why Blaidd is in Evergaol:"There is something you should know. The Two Fingers gave Blaidd to Lady Ranni, as a faithful follower. Her very shadow, incapable of treachery. But if Lady Ranni, as an Empyrean, resists being an instrument of the Two Fingers, the shadow will go mad, transforming from a follower into a horrid curse. But such is his destiny. " Kinda how Maliketh gone mad after the Rune of Death was stolen and inbued it to his flesh and try to consume all the Deathroot.
Couldn’t it be both that being born from a single god automatically makes one an empyrean AND that an empyrean can be chosen? I don’t think the lore makes the two mutually exclusive.
Being born from a single god makes you powerful enough to be an Empyrean. Because they are so powerful, they are seen as naturally best for the job and acknowledged by the two fingers.
Also if the two fingers/greater will deem it necessary, they could allocate someone else. But someone would have to be that powerful and seen by greater will as useful to their purposes
@@SurrealParkour The video already dictates that strength/power isn't the measure to become an empyrean, if this was the case Radhan would've been an empyrean.
@@vaultboy3706 Not all powers are equal. The Greater Will wants the Empyrean to replace Merica & Radhan wssn't chosen, possibly because he was cursed with the Red Hair of a different Outer God.
@@Proctor_Conley Malenia was marked with the Rot of a different Outer God so I'm not sure that's a disqualifier
@@Calathil
Radhan is marked with flame, with the Greater Will hates. The rot is ignored by the Greater Will; which still plays into your point.
Thank you!
Seems like an empyrean is just whomever the fingers chose. Now what their criteria is, might involve a single god as a parent or whatever, who knows. But Ranni said she 'was' an empyrean. Seems like you cease to be one when no longer supported by the fingers.
No bro she said that cause she was because she slew her own empyrean flesh, freeing her from being and empyrean and serving the greater will
Well she said she killed her empyrean flesh and that she wouldn’t be controlled by it anymore. It seems to me that that body itself is the empyrean. I’d guess she is no longer an empyrean because she killed the empyrean body.
@@BreakingTheGleipnir The grammar used for Miquella and Malenia is also in a tense that would normally be used to describe a situation that's over now. It's possible that all of them are just not empyreans anymore because things have broken down so far, but it's also possible that the choice of verb tense is just a reflection of how Ranni thinks of it. (e.g. if a woman in a fairytale says "I was a princess", in the sense that her parentage hasn't changed she probably still is, but she may be saying it in past tense because she's no longer living in a manner one would expect of a princess and no longer thinks of herself as one)
@World endies that would make radahn and every other sibling an empyrean
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
I agree with your take, it's both chosen and born from a god. The fact that once Marika turned rogue, the Greater Will didn't just replace her easily with another suggests they look for certain requirements (power level, acumen?) in the subject and the replacement cannot easily be found. This makes sense also as to why Ranni killed herself because if a replacement is easily found around the corner, Ranni's suicide will not do much to break the cycle. But by killing herself and Godwyn and starting a war where people were killing each other to fill the power vacuum, she's throwing a huge monkey wrench into the Greater Will's plan since they take a very long time to decide anything. When the Two Fingers went silent, the cron lady said it could take many thousands of moons (cycles) for them to make a decision, and you might not be around to hear it.
You have to also consider, there are other gods out to exert forces on this land so they are also likely scouring the lands for candidates to becomes their own "Empyrean" and eliminating its rival's candidate by cursing them. (It's not even clear whether Empyrean is a word exclusively reserved for the Greater Will's emissary or if it's a generic term for any person appointed by the other gods.) I think all this suggest its both chosen and born. They are chosen for a list of reasons, and the base requirement is that it's coming from a god, e.g. divine bloodline. The more interesting question then becomes, WTF is Marika, did she have a virgin birth like Jesus and was she created by the Elden Beast or by some other mechanism?
The game alludes to gods of ages prior to the Erdtree. We have no reason to believe that Marika is the first.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
I am inclined to think they are chosen, considering how champions seem to be picked by the outer gods. Such as, Marika being a notable person before, but was MADE a god by the greater will. So I am inclined to think that anyone chosen by the 2 fingers could also be an empyrean, their obvious preference being demigods. As per why, who knows? Maybe because they are powerful (granted that would raise the question of "why isn't Rhadan an empyrean?"... Good question.), or Perhaps they want people who they feel would be loyal... Granted Rhadan is also an outlier here.
And Ranni is indeed a weird case as well for the case of "born of 1 God".
It really does feel like it's some strange mixture of the 2 factors. As both arguments alone have that weird strange exception.
So as said, I am inclined to think that it may be just up to the 2 fingers discrepancy as it's a pattern not supported by what is claimed, thus it's easier to explain it as "a force beyond our understanding making decisions and giving us 0 context as to why.".
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
0:36 "I'm here to show the game references and being neutral"
1:45 *shows a picture of Melina when mentioning the Gloam-Eyed queen*
Apart from that, great video
Not the point but I love how Rennala, deeply connected to motherhood, is represented by the full moon. In celtic religions the lunar phases refer to the 3 stages of a woman's life, which are: Waxing (Maiden), Full Moon (Mother), and Waning (Crone).
This may be merely a coincidence or just Rennala's case. But trying to fit the other moon-connected female characters into it, Rennala is the Mother, Ranni could be the Maiden, and maybe Renna the Crone? Would be a cool touch imo
The "they are chosen" argument makes me wonder if the many Two Fingers throughout the Lands Between had different ideas as to what/who a true successor to Queen Marika should be. This was before the Shattering so either the powers that be were aware that Marika was up to something or they feared she might be overthrown or their vision of the world no longer aligned with how Marika was ruling. If they are not of one mind on the matter each Two Fingers could have supported a different candidate. Thus you easily get a situation where some supposed representatives of the Greater Will's vision say it comes down to bloodline while others say anyone they deem worthy can get the title.
Of course if the Greater Will is giving various Two Fingers different and/or contradictory information then the problem goes all the way to the top. Nothing quite like a game of Telephone to muddle a message, especially when its a long distance call across a vast void.
I like this idea, because we know the Two Fingers take thousands of years to communicate with the Greater Will, so it is possible that over time, without constant communication, the different Two Fingers might have different ideas on who the God should be.
It's entirely possible that a "Two Fingers" can serve an entity other than the greater will, but it seems pretty definite that the Greater Will isn't involved much in actual day-to-day explicit decisions.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
@Sneekmuch Ranni elsewhere explicitly said that she, Miquella, and Malenia were each chosen by their own two fingers, and there's nothing in the Remembrance description that negates that. It only says that they're empyreans, but someone could say "This man is the son of the previous deceased king, and as such he is now king." and that would be accurate but leaving out a lot of details, in the same way that the remembrance leaves out a lot of details.
@Sneekmuch Ranni elsewhere explicitly said that she, Miquella, and Malenia were each chosen by their own two fingers, and there's nothing in the Remembrance description that negates that. It only says that they're empyreans, but someone could say "This man is the son of the previous deceased king, and as such he is now king." and that would be accurate but leaving out a lot of details, in the same way that the remembrance leaves out a lot of details.
It seems to me that an Empyrean is any demigod who was chosen AT THEIR BIRTH by an outer god. Hence why Mohg is not one, as he wasn't chosen until well after he was an adult. I don't think the parentage matters too much as long as there is at least one godly parent.
Ah, that make sense. Ranni with the moon, Malenia with the rot, Miquella with… sleep or youth, the Gloom-Eyed Queen with death, and Marika with… gold? Idk about Marika tbh.
@@AlbertusSalvatierra she was probably chosen by the greater will at birth.
Marika was full grown adult from the land of Numen by the time she came to the lands between. So i dont think she was chosen at birth
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
These are just my impressions of it. Empyrean seems like a title similar to the way prince and princess were used in some countries, ie a legally recognized candidate for the throne. Ranni says she was chosen to succeed to godhood. Those chosen to succeed to godhood but have not yet done it are titled Empyrean. And only those born of one god are eligible to become Empyreans just like usually only those with a King and Queen in their bloodline can be a prince/princess and become a king/queen. Grand Duke and Grand Duchess is another example of this from imperial Russia for the title of Tzar. I'm no lore master and haven't combed through every item description and Japanese texts, this is just what I got from playing the game.
In my opinion one can become an empyrean by either being born of one god or by being chosen by a two fingers. I head cannon that in other to be the Ruler or successor to the Elden ring one must have the backing of the two fingers, a Shadow companion, a rune and eventually a demigod consort. The player journey to become Elden lord shows us what are the requirements to become an empyrean we are chosen by torrent, we collect 2 runes and receive the blessing of the two fingers and then defeat the Elden beast and restore Marika and become her consort or either we become Ranni's consort
Big facts
Ur correct
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
I think they have to simply be chosen since The Tarnished succeeds Marika and isn't born of any gods.
You dont become a god tho. You only become elden lord as a consort for the fractured Queen Marika. You are still a tarnished by the end but you become the lord of the age of fracture and nothing more.
The only ending in which the tarnished arguably succeeds Marika is the frenzied flame ending. In all of the others the Tarnished becomes a consort.
@@Eladelia Which explains why that’s the only ending where her head just crumbles to dust (I think)
i heard in another lore video that ranni morgott and mohg (i think just those 3) were like adopted demi gods. they werent demi gods when they were born but when radagon became the second elden lord they were given demi god status.
🤯 = My head when you said English isn't your first language. I would have never guessed as such. Also love the content keep it up!
Likely both due to the fact that when I played elden ring I get the impression that they portray that while Marika and radagon were once two separate beings but as a cruel punishment by the elder gods ,ect they were fused into one being making them self productive parent and it's in my honest opinion that no one side in this respect the natural laws of life and death or freedom of choices like even FIA of elden ring does and no question ranni the witch does
While chosen Empyreans lack the holy blood from their ancestors, perhaps they can be trascended into "Empyreanhood" after a rite of ascension, that could probably entail drinking the blood from a real god or being infused by it. The Two Fingers are mysterious in their ways but will always reconsider chosen ones if the blood heirs to their predecesors are flawed and unfit to reign.
Coming from GRRM, I assumed the single god parenthood was the cause of the rot and young curse, to mirror the Targaryens going nuts because of the incest.
I agree. More important then looking at item descriptions and dialogue of characters is understanding or having some knowledge of who is behind the pen. The crippled twins were born from incest while the omen twins are bastards. In fact I think all omens are bastards but that’s a whole different topic.
To me it makes more sense that the fingers choose the demi-gods at birth, maybe bc something about them is special to the fingers, and they are allowed to be a candidate. I just find it hard to fully believe that Ranni was made from the egg when she has red hair, but also her mothers magic. Maybe they both just pumped their energy into the egg and that made her, which could make it a single god. But to me I think Empyreans are just chosen at birth
It's probably both, but more like in a monarchy type. You have born heirs of a king/queen that can be chosen in a testament, then the heirs that come from another marriage. I don't know if it's been told, but I wonder if Godwyn was also an Empyrean before his death ? Maybe he was supposed to be THE heir of Marika's "throne".
That "born from a single god" reminds me, this game has a lot of mistranslations.
Anyone tried to do a cross reference on other languages on these debates?
It’s not. In the Japanese version, it says that Malenia and Miquella are the begotten children of the one and only god.
I think that an Empyrean is born but not specifically of a single god. My understanding is that to be an Empyrean is to be born with the potential to contain the power of an Outer God. From the characters' perspective they are chosen but the reality is they are discovered to be Empyrean (Without the fingers to tell them how would they know). Ranni is the daughter of Radagon and Rennala, no shenanigans, who was born with the potential to contain the power of an Outer God.
Miquella and Malenia's situation is basically saying, "These two came from an Empyrean and nothing else so obviously they are Empyreans." Ranni had two parents but one was an Empyrean and she took after that parent in that regard unlike her brothers.
It seems like both answers are right. Empyreans really deal with like of succession. The greater will can choose these candidates through the fingers. One can also assume that children born of one god would have string claims to be next in line and by default would be chosen seeing how they are in a way a clone of that god.
Melania/Miquella are the only ones born from Radaricka (assuming Radagon and Mericka are the same person) and fill that role
A tv show or book, or comic or something about events prior to this game would be fantastic.
I had a crazy idea, but what if being an empyrean is a dominant trait that both Merika and Radagon have. This would explain how children of Rannla are mostly non-empyrean, but still have a small chance of being born as one.
I think you mean recessive trait.
I think the idea that she was born of the amber egg as a child born after Radagon left Rennala makes sense. Given her love for her mother but extreme distaste for her father, it could make sense. Plus the absence of her own great rune and the amber egg holding the Great Rune of the Unborn, a rune without a known demigod barer in possession of Ranni’s mother can’t be too much of a coincidence. If were the case, it would continue to follow that all empyreans are born of a single god, as well as explain Ranni’s cutscene in her mom’s boss fight a bit more. Another thing, Ranni specifically had to burn and rid herself of her empyrean flesh and body. The verbage around that event is specific about that to the point that there could be a conclusion that something about the body itself was what made Ranni an empyrean. That too would also lend to the idea that empyreans were born such. The chosen by the two fingers bit could be more about which outer god graced and chose them. So perhaps the scarlet rot god has a set of fingers that chose Melania or something like that. Of course I could be completely wrong, let me know if anyone has any thoughts!
When I read "born of a single god" I interpret it as is. Marika has already ascended to godhood. Since both parents are technically Marika wouldn't the offspring be Marika? At least genetically? So whatever requirements Marika may have met to be chosen as an Empyrean wouldn't Miquella and Malenia have it as well?
Then Why is Ranni an empyrean? Renala sure aint an Empyrean nor was she a demi god so how come her daughter Ranni is an Empyrean while her sons Radahn and Rykkard aren't? Simple the Empyrean is just a title not a race or something you get from being born to a Demi-god/Empyrean.
@@Shane-gg3hl exactly. Born of one true god statement holds up for Malenia and Miquella since they are Radagon + Marika. But Ranni makes that statement fall apart because of Renalla.
I’ve seen theories around that ranni empyrean stuff saying that Rennala wasn’t her birth mother, that being Marika instead and she was given to Rennala around the time of radagon leaving her perhaps. It’s not a solid theory but it could explain the single god thing.
@@spencertang5155 i mean yes that would explain it sure but i dont see any evidence in the game to link Ranni to Marika in that way. Honestly that theory holds little to no weight. Unless iv missed something but even Malenia and Miquella may have just been given the title at birth not nessasarily "born" as an Empyrean
@@fishnutz5196 I suppose we’ll have to wait for dlc content to see if there’s any weight to the theories.
The Player is pretty much the strongest being in the Lands between and is a God (technically)
An interesting thing to note that I never see anyone bring up: Miquella is this game's Gwyndolin analogue with the whole St. Trina may have been a young girl or young boy thing, and every single Empyrean other than himself is female. It may just be that female Demigods are the only ones that are Empyrean, and any born of a single God will always be born Empyrean (Both a demigod and female). Regardless of that potential link, I just think Empyreans are a naturally occurring oddity. They can be created directly by being born of one god, or it can just be luck of the draw like with Ranni and the previous Empyreans like the Gloam Eyed Queen. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole idea is that the Greater Will sends it fingers out to each of the Empyreans of an age when it is time for a new vessel, the fingers encourage the Empyreans to fight so that the strongest one comes out on top as the new vessel with the greatest of champions at their side (The importance of a "Champion" for the new vessel also seems very important as every Empyrean we see also has a specifically male "Champion" with the sole exception of Melania who was Miquella's Champion, also interestingly turning the normal Female God Male Champion dynamic on it's head).
This also could help explain part of why Marika sent away Godfrey: He only gave her male heirs.
Morgott was definitely more powerful than the rest, he defeated radahn while not embracing his omen powers
I think the meaning is not as complex as we made it be and that the crux of the problem is the translation: I believe that "born from a Single God" was actually meant to be ''born from One God" as in that one of the parents has to be a whole, fully formed God, as opposed to demigods (half-gods) and only person who fit that requirement is Marika/Radagon. Empyreans are just children of Gods who are able to ascend to godhood themselves and that's why in the game other outer gods are prying them to their side. We see the presence of multiple Outer Gods in The Lands Between, but it seems that having a full God as their vessel made the Greater Will a dominant one. That Empyreans are demigods who can ascend to full godhood is, in my opinion, also why there are Oracle Envoys who are said to appear heralding the arrival of a new God or a new age. They are in The Lands Between exactly because there are several demigods on a verge to become Gods. GW just wants to extend their age in The Land Between and new ruler who is a vessel of some other Outer god is, consequentially, the begging of a new age.
But wouldn’t that make every one of the children Empyreans? Radahn, the omen twins, Rycard, ect?
I believe Marika is the Gloam Eyed/Dusk Eyed Queen. It really makes us work for it though. Look at Marika at the end, red and black spear impaling her, imprisoned. Defeated. Who did that? Who uses red and black Rune of Death power? Well, Maliketh.
Ranni tells us that chosen Empyreans have a shadow assigned to them which protects them, but also is able to and directed to destroy their Empyrean host if they go against the Greater Will. How does she know this? She saw it happen to Marika and Maliketh. When he defeated the Gloam Eyed Queen. Who is simply another name for Marika, hinting at her past as a Numen and denizen of the Eternal City. The Black Knife assassins are also from here.
The Age of the Duskborn ending sees Godwyn as the Prince of Death rise to new ascendancy and it is said by Fia he will be reborn anew. I believe the Duskborn ending is Godwyn's ending. I believe the "Duskborn" is Godwyn himself. He is the Prince of Death. Born of someone aligned with Death and "Dusk" indeed. His mother is Marika. The Dusk Eyed Queen. Godwyn, a Prince. Marika, his mother, the Queen.
The Beast Eye you get from Maliketh/Gurranq is purple/gloamy. We never see Marika's eyes. Or the left side of her generally. I believe it's her eye. Now who else has purple eyes we see, ever? Melina. Who is Melina? The daughter of Marika. Traits are often passed down in Elden Ring from parent to child, no? I bet Marika has gloamy purple eyes. Well, one left now.
What does Melina talk about? Destined Death which is just the Rune of Death really. And flame. Sounds like black flame to me. Tied to the Godskins. What shape does Marika hang in? The shape of the Rune of Death. The Godskins served it, long ago. Marika was once made an Empyrean specifically because she was so powerful already in the world before the Erdtree. The host must be very powerful after all.
Hewg is praying to himself, to Marika about her wish to create a Godslaying weapon. To kill a God. The Elden Beast. Who else made and knew of Godslaying weapons and arts? Well, the Godskins and their black flame. Flame and Death. With Maliketh keeping watch of the main part of the Rune of Death, and with the other half impaled in the Dusk Eyed Queen, pinning her to the Erdtree, defeated but not slain as per the item description, she needed another way to slay a God. That's Hewg's task given by her.
It's worth noting that Fia, Deathbed Companion has a similar black robe we see Marika wearing, and we see the tattered remnants of her black garb when we find her in the Erdtree as well. There's a statue of Marika holding the twins Malenia and Miquella in the Haligtree region, she is hooded there like Fia. To me this just further ties her to aspects of Destined Death and proves she is the DEQ/GEQ.
I don’t know if Godwyn was an Empyrean, but my thoughts are that maybe Godfrey and Marika couldn’t produce Empyrean offspring. Rykard and Radahn are not empyreans either, and if Ranni came from the amber egg (which had a rune in it?) then that was after whatever change Radagon underwent, as it was his parting gift before he went to Marika. He was able to father Empyrean children with Marika. Radagon is the common link, and something happened to him that changed him.
Theyre chosen. Radahn is Rannis sister and hes just a regular ol stronk boi
sounds like both. It's the acquired quality of a being, to be susceptible or able to possess stronger power.
Ranni said she was chosen. So I think either being of a single makes you eligible, and then if deemed worthy your chosen by the fingers, or maybe Ranni didn't know she was of a single God, and thought Rennala was her biological mother.
So imo there is way that both are true as you put it. If an empyrean is someone worthy to become a god as chosen by fingers then all is good. By being born of a single god, ie neither parent is mortal then by default by birthright you are already worthy to ascend to godhood. So in this case if Ranni is not empyrean by birth she was still found worthy, whereas the twins were worthy just by who there parents are.
Does "born of a single god" require that the god be in the world, or are outer gods allowed too?
Ranni's strong connections to the moon seem pretty incompatible with Radogan, so what if the "single god" that created Ranni was the full moon when Rennala met with it?
Definitely speculative, but I feel like it would fit Ranni's themes better than a lineage descended from anything of the golden order given how opposed she is to it
In game it stated that radagon was her father most likely she's probably born from that rune egg that rennala holding.
@@kiddeenotv903 this bullshit theory that everyone is trying to jam everyone else's throat is just to force feed everyone that Empyreans must be born of a single God. Stop with the nonsense.
Awesome lore!
Does Ranni the youngest demigod (she has the smallest throne, her parents both tall)?
Was she born by Rennala, or by amber egg or is it actually her twin (Unborn)?
Did Rennala imprisonment by involvement of Radagon (the seal on the academy gate, the red wolf, and baby cribs in the ceiling..)?
How's GW choose the successor Emperyan, does true borns from single god not enough (because afflictions)? Therefore it's passed to Ranni (who prefers the moon rather than GW)?
Ranni is older than Miquella and Melania. As they were born after Radagon abandoned Renalla and assumed the title of Elden Lord. (Publicly as Queen marika's consort, but in reality literally being a separate aspect of the same being.)
It is strongly implied that Ranni was essentially born like Athena from Radagon/Marika, via the great rune of the unborn that Radagon gave Renalla, and essentially WAS the "gift" that Radagon left Renalla.
(And Ranni's half alive, half dead, state is why Renalla has gone mad and is sitting, fixated on the rune, surrounded by mindless children. IE, she may be repeatedly trying to resurrect Ranni using the rune, but it doesn't work because only Ranni's body is dead and her soul is still alive and bound to a puppet.)
I think they are chosen by the 2 fingers. I dont think it has anything to do with other outer gods other than the greater will because miquellas whole thing is warding off the influence of outer gods. I personally think malenia and miquella were just instantly chosen at birth due to the fact they were born of one god, and I think ranni was chosen due to her ability to rule/intellect
Like,chosen to be born? That an option too,right? This would justify Marika, I guess. The greater will chose for them to be born to "assist" them,then effectively gave them their powers ?
It seems to me that both are true, chosen by the fingers or a *pure* descendant of one who already was a finger-chosen God.
So Ranni is Chosen by the fingers, with Radagon planting her with Renalla on the fingers orders - probably in anticipation of Marika's betrayal - while Miquella and Melania were the offspring of Marika and Radagon and thus *pure* so also Empyrean, but more by Marika's ego than the Fingers design, hence their curses.
I think Marika's talk of Radagon not yet being her is to do with them truly being one, but Radagon being more loyal to the Fingers, hence why he was the agent of the Fingers in creating Ranni and when she called him back, they became more one, but it didn't work out as she'd intended.
I posted the theory of cloning radagon to create ranni using the amber egg in response to a ziostorm.
My opinion is that being born of one god automatically have Melenia and Miquella Empyrean status, but at the price of a curse. Ranni seems to me like is the biological daughter of Rennala, although her sorcery skills could be explained by her being raised by the quenn of the full moon even if she were not to be her blood.
As for the fingers choosing Empyreans, they certainly tried with all the known ones, but this doesn't imply that the act of choosing them made them Empyreans, might very well be that they simply recognized their potential.
So I think that Empyreans are born with higher potential compared to other demigods, and the fingers try to get them to do their bidding.
I think its chosen. Since the "born of one true god" falls apart due to Ranni being born of Renalla and Radagon.
There’s some strong evidence that Ranni is Renallas daughter.
@@maldor56 thats what i said. Renalla + Radagon isnt born of 1 true god hence why i said i think 2 fingers chose who Empyreans are and they arent born Empyreans.
@@fishnutz5196 i meant adopted or step mother that’s my bad
@@fishnutz5196 or I guess I haven’t thought of this what Renalla isn’t a god but radagon is. If Ranni was born of them she would still technically be born of one god.
@@maldor56 but if thats the case then every demi god would be born of 1 god since Rykard and Radahn also had Radagon as a father. And Morgott and Mohg had Marika for a mother. The only way Ranni can be born of "1 god" is if Renalla is her adopted mother. However there is no proof of this in any item or dialouge in the game. But yeah i have heard that theory aswell.
For me, it's both.
My headcanon is that they are chosen, but if they are born of a god/gods, it's 100% that they will be chosen, they are "born empyreans". Being chosen might depend of how much "godly" blood the child inherits, so Ranni may have been born with more divinity in her blood than the other demigods. In Elden Ring, gods seem to be just vessels to outer gods, so it makes sense that the more godly they are, the better vessel they make.
Being purely of godly blood might make them a free real estate to outer gods even before they are born though. (There's a theory that Miquella got afflicted by a "God of Sleep" of sorts, since he is most likely St. Trina.) Being chosen by a Two Fingers might be just letting them know, that they can become vessel to the Elden Ring/Elden Beast/Golden Order/Whatever.
Or maybe they need to be chosen for an outer god to use them, and born empyreans get chosen right after birth, since they are an obvious choice. Ranni might've been chosen later, and then received her affliction (which might've been one of the incentives to cast her body away).
Let me give a good example the way I see it.
John was put in the starting lineup up because he is the son of the team owner.
David was put in the starting lineup because hes the best quarterback of team has.
Each has their own respective reason for getting the same position.
I bet they're born and chosen before birth but if the outer god that needs an empyrean and there aren't any suitable being on the way they probably could make anything they want into an empyrean
Do you think you could do a video over the Crystalian People?
Chosen by the two fingers. In which ranni tells us
It specifically says the gloom eyed Queen was one
i thought it was just those related to marika
and since marika and radagon was the same person *a secret* that the definition is weird (but we dont know who actually knows that)
Perhaps, and this is just speculation, the condition of being born from a single god might mean they must first be a demi-god. But that an Empyrean is ALSO one blessed from birth by an outergod, chosen if you will.
What if Empyreans are simply beings whose parents are both Gods? In that case Ranni could be an empyrean because one of her parents is Radagon (=Marika=God) and her other parent is Renalla (Possibly goddess of the moon?) If Renalla is the "God" chosen by the moon that makes Ranni an Empyrean spanning two different outer Gods. Whilst Malenia and Miquella are Empyreans born of a single God
If they are chosen, why did they choose those, who do not support the greater will, instead of morgott I. E. To me this implies they are chosen very early, probably at birth, so birth and lineage seems to be an important aspect of becoming an empyrean.
So if Blaidd serves Ranni and Maliketh serves Merika... who serves Melania and Miquella as their guardians?
I kinda don't fully agree with either theory.
Ranni said that she "slew her Empyrean flesh" -- which means that it was a quality of her body. (Yet she's still able to usher a new Age, so I have questions)
Also the remembrance gives you a sufficient condition to be an Empyrean, not a nessesary one.
So I think that Empyreans are born, but we don't know the full set of conditions.
There was an interesting theory, that Empyreans are actually numen purebloods or something like that.
And it ties up everything nicely: like, if you are born from a single god Marika, who is numen -- then you are a pure numen offspring. And just as remembrance says, it makes you an Empyrean.
But that's not the only option.
I agree with everything except the pure Numen part as I don't believe that would apply to Ranni if we assume the game hasn't lied to us about Rennala being her mother.
If you pause the video at 5:12 on the right side you can see a humanoid shape embedded in the Haligtree. Who is that?
Pretty confident they have to be born capable/compatible, but they're ultimately chosen.
I myself don't fully trust melina word as she is allegedly tell in marika word from Long ago
Nah, it is not discussed. There are people who say empyreans are born based on in-game facts and people who are wrong. Easy.
I believe both prerequisites are true. Elden Ring loves double meanings and multiple names for one thing, this is something we know. I don't think it's too crazy to believe both theories as a liklihood. Queen Marika was born of the Numen and The Greater Will chose her to be an Empyrean, the game says/implies this. Miquella and Malenia are Empyrean by birth rite, which the game states this.
What I find more interesting is when an Empyrean is chosen/born(Though the game only mentions chosen) they are granted Wolven Shadows to defend them. As far as we know, unlike Marika, Radagon, and even Ranni, Miquella and Malenia being the only born Empyreans have no wolven shadow, or their's were killed before the events of the game due to their betrayal of The Golden Order.
There's a possibility that the various Two Fingers represent different outer gods, and if so they might have different policies. It might be that one specific faction is in the habit of supplying helper-wolves that double as security against betrayal, and the other ones do something else.
@@Eladelia This makes sense seeing that Empyreans are simply vessels for Outer Gods. Malenia we know is a vessel for The Rot Goddess, so I would assume an Empyrean can only be a vessel for a single outer god. Doesn't explain Miquella though, nearly nothing explains Miquella. We need DLC for him for sure.
Or maybe it's as simple as he's just Empyrean by birth rite and not by sponsorship meaning he just wouldn't get one anyway.
Both ways could be possible, they don't have to be mutually exclusive
Honestly I do feel like it’s kind of both. I think what qualifies them as the next line to be gods is the normalities that each of them have. Melenia was given blessings by the rot and her brother was given eternal Youth making him have a body of a young child and Ranni I can’t say since we don’t know much about her history before the events that transpired. In my personal theory for the reason they’re chosen by the two fingers is likely due to their ability to make great change in the land between . Like we saw this heavily with melenia when it came to the rot, where it heavily mutated everything around it change it or reshaping it and Ranni is a very gifted sorcerer and Melenia’s bother is very special. He was able to make various items that allow them def the the outer gods and even made a kingdom for those who are not wanted. The other I can’t say much since The only thing that we know is she’s tied with Destiny death and is the one that made the Godslaying apostles but that’s my Theory.🐱
Another great video on a topic that will be debated forever lol
My current belief is that Empyreans are chosen, but having any amount of non-godly blood, like being half-human as most of the demigods are, disqualifies them from being chosen somehow. They don't necessarily have to be born of ONE SINGLE god, but they can't have a parent who ISN'T a god
Which, given that Marika was an Empyrean as well, would mean that she was perhaps the child of one or two gods worshipped by the Numen back in their old world. (And for the conspiracy theorists out there, a fun speculation might be that she is the child of Gwynevere and her husband the Flame God Flann from Dark Souls, and the Numen are the descendants of the lords she led away from Anor Londo at the end of the Age of Fire)
Ranni disproves your idea. Her mother isn't a god. Carian royalty, yes. But not a god.
@@brentgarrison6245 True! But, as discussed, there is some evidence that Rennala may not be Ranni's biological mother. She raised her, yes, and was more of a parent to her than anyone else, but it's possible that Ranni was never physically birthed at all and was instead created with the Rune of the Unborn. And as Radagon was the one who forged that rune, that could in theory make him her only "biological" parent
ranni and the God of death melania/miquella
I'm so back and forth on this one.
The egg shit with Ranni is confusing as shit.
Also she straight up says she was "chosen" by her Two Fingers.
Just a few thoughts
Empyreans may not necessarily just be either one of those two definitions, but rather to become an Empyrean you either have to be born of a pure godly bloodline, therefore being born from one single god makes you an Empyrean by default (Malenia and Miquella), OR you need to carry a "mark" of sorts of a god, like being chosen or cursed by an Outer God (Ranni being chosen by the Two Fingers). It would explain how Ranni was able to become an Empyrean after being chosen by the two fingers. That might also be why Ranni says that she had "slain her Empyrean flesh" which suggests that the Empyrean status is tied to the physical body, since despite her still being "alive" she doesnt seem to be an Empyrean anymore.
To people who think that an empyrean is born of a single god, have you considered Marika. We can assume that the only god begore Queen Marika was the Elden Beast itself. We also know that Marika is of Numen descent. Therefore I believe that anyone could be an empyrean.
The description of Malenia's remembrance might just mean that when a child is born to a singular god, they automatically become an empyrean at the cost of being cursed.
I honestly think this will eventually turn into the "Is Hornet void?" of the Elden Ring community.
This comment was made while my lore knowledge was still bad. I agree with basically nothing this comment says anymore. Please take that into consideration.
One thing I can say is that there were DEFINITELY gods before Marika, as far back as the age of ancient dragons, far before the arrival of the Elden Beast.
@@TenchiHawkwing Yes.
What is the lore behind the evergaols? Like is it another dimension or something?
I see an Empyrean as a recessive gene, like ginger hair or blue eyes. Marika and the gloam eyed queen are Empyreans. Most of Marika’s children are not, they don’t inherit the gene, rarely some do like Rani. Miquela and Melania are Empyrian because they are born of a single god, so inherit 100% of the Empyrean gene. This could also explain their afflictions, they’re essentially inbred so have defects. This is also a theme George R.R. Martin has used in his works before with the Targaryen’s in GOT. Being an Empyrean allows one to become a god, it’s a requirement, there’s no evidence that Marika or the gloam eyed queen were born of a single god. Marika had a people she belonged too before she came to the lands between, perhaps the Empyrean gene comes from them and they are simply the best people to become gods.
We need a DLC to finish this topic more information on the lore because elden ring contraditcs itself too much when it comes to the story
So much interesting lore
I wonder if in order to be born an empyrean, you have to be birthed from a single empyrean god. Like the title is inherited by offspring with pure empyrean blood.
The Japanese language around a "single god" follows the English pretty closely indicates it's a single-bodied/-personed god.
Given that, it's hard to get around the implication that parentage isn't crucial to Empyrean status.
(Enia also says all the demigods are descended from Marika, so...)
Both, both is good.
I don't think it is a grammar problem
it more a logic problem
A Empyrean can be born when it is from a Single god, So A(Born from Single God) imply B (Empyreans)
But Logic tells us that when A imply B, does not mean B imply A
A( number is bigger than 4, ie x > 4) imply that B (number is bigger than 1, x > 1) , A imply B is true, any number bigger than 4, is definitely bigger than 1, but the other way round, does not work always
B imply A is not true when the number is 3
number 3 is bigger than 1 , ie X=3 > 1 is true, does not imply A. X > 4
So this is what I think, Born from Single god, is definitely Empyreans, but other than that, many other ways can make you a Empyrean, when the finger chooses you.
what do you's think to be an empyrean you have too have both sides?
Likely a case of mistranslated text. But i would wager that Empyrean are chosen and anyone could possibly become a Empyrean. For example Ranni was likely chosen as a Empyrean once the Greater Will discovered the flaws and influence of other outer gods in Miquella and Malenia. Considering Radahn's and Rykard's great rule state that "the children of Rennala and Radagon, who became demigod stepchildren after Radagon's union with Queen Marika." to me implies that they were elvated /powered up to the level of a demigod. Though I am also under the impression that Radagon and Queen Marika were separate people in the beginning.
I believe that being an empyrean, regardless of the criteria, is determined at birth and is part of their physical being (which makes me think the 'single god' theory is more credible.)
Why, you may ask. Well, I don't see why the night of black knives would be needed otherwise. The entire thing was Ranni's means of getting rid of her empyrean flesh, after all.
The *Black Flame Ritual* text says that the “GEQ was chosen by the two fingers” and the *Remembrance of the Rot Goddess* text says “Miquella and Malenia are both the children of a single god. As such they are both Empyreans.” So therefore it appears there are two ways to become an empyrean.
1. Born from a single god
2. Chosen by the two fingers
And that’s straight from the in game item descriptions.
@@sneekmuch Who is to say GEQ was not chosen as a result of the circumstances of their birth? We don't even know who it is. That doesn't actually tell us anything specific.
@@TenchiHawkwing I agree. Since we don’t know the GEQ’s parents (nor who the GEQ even is) we don’t know if they were born an empyrean or chosen to be one by the two fingers. All I’m saying is that based on the in game text from those two items that it is possible to be born an empyrean and also be chosen to become an empyrean.
Edit: Since the Black Flame Ritual uses the word “chosen” I’m assuming someone chose to give her that title where as being born from a single god automatically gets the empyrean title. Also the in game files name for Melina is “MarikaOfDaughter” and with all the theories of her being the GEQ would align nicely with how the GEQ got the empyrean title. Not to mention Ranni once having the empyrean title as well but not being born from a single god if were to believe Radagon and Renalla are her true parents. Which would still confirm both ways to become an empyrean (birthed from single god/chosen by the two fingers) are correct.
has anyone noticed that with the exception of miquella, all the empyreans are women? just something I noticed right now
Definitely seems like both
It seems like Empyreans are all female except Miquella. As a matter of fact there are no female demigods that are not Empyreans. Miquella could be could be female as well ... kinda a similar businessmen as with Gwyndolin in Dark Souls.
The Empyreans can replace Marika as a vessel for the elden ring which kinda implies that they should be female to have a male consort who will hold the tittle of the elden lord. So Mogh wanted to be an elden lord with Miquella as his Empyrean.
It seems that empyreans are all female, at least partly. That is, if one is to assume that Miquella has the same male/female duality that Radagon/Marika had when they became one.
i think theyre chosen, but if youre born from one god then youre basically chosen by default
Why would the GREATER WILL have potential empyrean successors if the greater will was happy with Marika being god and and vessel of the elden ring?
Ranni says they were selected as potential gods for the coming age. It seems like it implies that it was well understood that this world should be moving from one age to the next, that the age of the Erdtree began and would/should one day end, and so they were lining up candidates for who was coming next (and it wasn't necessarily just the Greater Will involved. We know there was a past age of the dragons, but it never seems to be directly said whether the greater will was also somehow a sponsor to that age, or if there was some other outer god in supremacy at the time)
@@Eladelia agreed, do you then think that would be a point of conflict between the greater will and marika as
she wouldn't want her age to come an end therefore instructing maliketh to hold the rune of death making her immortal?thats why she becomes known as marika the eternal?
I think that Empyreans are Empyreans because they have something special about them that makes the Outer Gods like them. Malenia's rot came from an Outher God and as you say Miquela was chosen by the Formless Mother to be a god so maybe they are just people that have a better connection with them.
As to why Ranni is an Empyrean it could simply be by chance. All sons of Radagon and Rennala were demigods which means that Radagon was indeed a god but as it only was him only Ranni got the Empyrean genes so to speak. That could also explain why the remembrance mentions the being born of a single god thing. It's not expressing that Empyreans are born from a single god but it's saying that as they were born from a single god BOTH Miquela and Malenia were Empyreans, instead of only one of them
Porque No los Dos?
Hmmm... So this is my interpretation from the evidence in the video.
Looks like the community is overthinking this. Both are correct but have created points that directly contradict each other.
This means that there must be a third answer, an answer that allows both sides to coexist.
Let the third definition of an Empyrean be: A person that has the potential to become a god.
This is because being born or chosen does not fit with the criteria of all the known Empyreans in the game with evidence. As well as answers how Marika became a god in the first place, without having a god as a parent. But first we need to look at the problems of the other definitions.
1. Empyrean is Chosen Problem:
If an Empyrean is chosen then, Marika, the Gloam-Eyed Queen, Ranni, Miquella, and Malenia are true Empyreans. It is a title that is given by a god. The video states that the counter-argument to this is the speculation about Radagon, which is really not good speculation, and is debunked by the video. Fortunately, the video introduces the problem with Mogh, and why he need Miquella to expand the influence of the blood god. This will be answered by the third definition/take/theory on what constitutes an Empyrean.
2. Empyrean is born problem:
If an Empyrean is born, then the only true Empyreans are Miquella and Malenia. The glaring issue with this take/definition/theory is that the evidence of Marika, Ranni, and the Gloam-Eyed Queen being Empyreans are left hanging. Fortunately, for the theory there is no evidence that points that the Gloam-Eyed queen and Marika are not born from a single god, and just suggests Ranni to be a lying bastard.
However, if we truly take all the dialogue, and remembrance notes are true, we can create allow another definition. That an Empyrean is a person has the potential to become a god.
The Empyrean God-Potentiality Theory/Take
An Empyrean is a person that has the potential to become a god. They can either be born with the potential or have it be discovered. To be born with the potential to become a god, one must be born from a single god (Miquella and Malenia). Yet there is an exception. For, other potentialities are hidden, and is only known if a Finger has detected it (Marika, Ranni, Gloam-Eyed Queen). This is why all the demi-god children of Marika have two fingers associated with them. It is to let the Greater Will know if a child has the potential to become a god or not. This also makes sense for other beings. The Gloam-Eyed Queen became an Empyrean after being chosen by the Fingers, as she has been detected to have potential. Further evidence supporting this theory is the 3 demi-gods chosen by the fingers. Ranni, Malenia, and Miquella were empyreans because the Fingers detected their capability of becoming a god. Their potentiality can actually be realized in the game. For Ranni, one just needs to finish her ending, to see her potentiality becoming an actuality, replacing Marika and becoming the Queen/Goddess of the Stars. For Malenia, one just needs to reach phase 2 to see her bloom into the goddess of rot. Finally, Miquella's potential can be read through Mogh's plan. Mogh needs Miquella to spread the influence of the Formless Mother as Mogh doesn't have the potential to become a god. Yet Miquella, has and he knows it. He is actually pretty much useless to the Formless Mother, yet was given audience because he's already in possession of the key to spread influence, in the form of Miquella. That is why Mogh wants Miquella so badly so that he can uphold the end of his bargain. Also, I'd like to speculate that the player too, becomes an Empyrean in the Frenzied Flame ending. As to become Lord of Frenzied Flame, you must have an audience with the 3 fingers who will grant you the power of the Frenzied Flame. This is also why Marika's clay structure decays after becoming the Lord of Frenzied Flame, as it signifies that she isn't god anymore. The player is, who is now a vessel for the Lord of Chaos.
“Each of us was chosen by our own Two Fingers, to succeed Queen Marika, and become the new God of the coming age.”
No! Learn English people. Those three were not chosen to be Empyreans, the sentence said they were chosen to succeed Queen Marika. They, all three, were already Empyrean. When you set up a sentence and have one statement followed by a comma and another statement ending in a comma that second statement is on its own. Though usually qualifying the previous statement. And can always be removed from the sentence so you could still read and make a sentence without it. How English works, while it can be complex, is often very simple… see what I did with that last sentence and it’s structure?
So, given what information we have gotten before, it clearly states an Empyrean is someone born of One God. And only an Empyrean can succeed Queen Marika. It clearly shows that’s what an Empyrean is, and they can or can not be chosen by a Two Fingers. If an Empyrean is chosen by the Two Fingers they get a Shadow. A spiritual companion and guide or chaperone. No to me the question is why and what are the Shadows, and who or what were Marika and Radagons Shadows, and the same for Melania and Miquella?
If the twins are Emperions where are their shadows?
Empyrean, but not chosen by the Fingers. Only those chosen by the Fingers get shadows. So, Marika and Ranni. And the Dusk Eyed Queen, if she isn't somehow also Marika. Because those are the only three we've ever been told explicitly were chosen by the Fingers.
@@brentgarrison6245 Ranni explicitly states that each of them were chosen by their two fingers to be candidates. They have shadows that we just never see.
Can someone point out to me other gods that aren't empyreans?
I think that Ranni, Malenia, and Miquella were chosen by the fingers BECAUSE they were empyreans.
I think an Empyrean is chosen are basically female demigods. Miquellia who is also known as St. Trina could pass off as a female because of his alignment and the fact that he is of small physique makes it seem like he can be easily controlled so him being chosen as an empyrean because the two fingers thought he was a girl would not be farfetched
An empyrean is certainly a demigod with an affinity to an other outer god. So the greater will marks them an 'empyrean' so as to amalgamate and subjugate the aspects of other outer gods within its order and grow its own elden ring. In the case of Mohg, I do not think he has an affinity with the mother of truth as its successor, as Malenia does with rot. He needs to open a void to borrow the power of the formless mother.
It's best to get the actual Japanese text and a decent direct English translation.
Speed demon