We're back from GDC! Jetlag hit us in the face but regardless i hope you enjoy this episode from tired Ludo & I. What topic would you like to see us tackle next? LET US KNOW!! If you enjoy the show please consider supporting us all making this weird content over on Patreon: www.patreon.com/SecondWindGroup
I'd personally be interested in hearing your take on how a focus on characters, or lack thereof, affects player investment in games! I've noticed that a lot of games lately, probably inspired by Soulsbournes, put a ton of work onto, and emphasis on, worldbuilding, but very little into characters (at least, that the player can see outside of reading about it outside of their experience with playing the game, which just feels like more worldbuilding to me). I think some really cool lore/environments have been created this way, but it usually comes off as feeling a bit flat to me, and makes it hard for me to feel engaged with the story, or care much about what's going on. I know a lot of people really love this style of storytelling in games, though, so I'd love to know what you guys have to say about it!
I am really curious about focus groups/focus testing when it comes to gaming. It's a subject I don't really know much about. I would really like to understand it more and WHY developers base their game design decisions on what a small handful of 100 people could or could not do in terms of their games.
The thing is that considering how the building design interacts with actual functionality of the space for the end user is supposed to be part of the architect's job, not just making it look cool.
Aye, that's why architecture is still work - they still have to do the unfun part where they have to accommodate for spoilsports like "gravity" and "people"!
@@noatrope Firmitatis, utilitatis, venustatis. Stability, utility, beauty. The three classical pillars of architecture. A building needs to be structurally stable. A building needs to serve its intended purpose. And a building needs to look good, for its users and passersby. Making a stable building that serves its users needs is literally an architect's job.
The very fact that so many games now have some form of "Eagle Hision" or Witcher Senses" as a narrative-based reason to strip all the pretty visuals away to show you what you need to be looking at to play the game proves ypur point perfectly.
I think Arkham started the trend with "Detective Vision". Games that use stealth use it a lot and I wonder if any games implement the mechanic in a aesthetically pleasing way. Arkham made it look cool by highlighting the characters' skeleton.
@@Nathaniel2Leinahtan1Actually the Arkham games are a good example. I recently replayed Aslyum and City, and I found that while I only ever used detecta-vision while there were enemies or stealth encounters in Asylum, I was using it way more with City. Aslyum was nicely paced out with introducing you to each place on the map and it being automatically obvious where they were. With City I found the map a bit too sprawling and gloomy and I found myself just using detecta-vision way more and getting lost a lot. (Also I know it's Detective-vision not Detecta-vision, the latter just has a better flow to me)
The best example of “yellow paint” working really well was the bright red objects in mirrors edge because it really fit the design choices while also being a clear signpost for players saying “hey look! Over here!”
The red elements in Mirror's Edge are also stated to be just Faith's perception of the environment from her own experience and skillset - like an always-on version of Batman's detective vision.
The reason it was such a success was the signal being worked into the rest of the game. It's not really a 'yellow paint' because the yellow paint effect comes from something being out-of-place to the point of being jarring. Through the use of the color palette in Mirrors Edge, they neatly side-step the issue and the signifier becomes a cohesive part of the level aesthetic, rather than something that stands out for the purpose of standing out. Yes, you can tell me the red is "Faith's perspective" but that's not what sells the player on the effect.
I was listening to a podcast complain about yellow paint. There was something like "why do we need yellow ladders? climbing is what ladders are for". I could see 3 yellow ladders IRL from where I was working at the time!
You wanna know something really interesting? J makes it sound like the 'yellow paint' is something new devised to guide players where to go in an unsubtle way in environments that are just too pretty and cluttered. But it's not. It's a concept that was actually first devised when graphics were kinda shit, not just by modern standards but even by the standards of the time. Because as it turns out, having an environment that consists of a bunch of simple polygons with textures that you can count the pixels on stapled to them makes drawing the player's eyes to things that are relevant just as hard as having a gorgeous environments full of visual clutter. The reality is that _most_ people don't mind, or even notice, the 'yellow paint' in all its various shades and forms (it's not always yellow, it's not always paint). It's mostly just level designers and environmental artists who dislike it because they feel it's too inelegant a solution... And unfortunately the more they talk about not liking it, the more people who aren't level designers and environment artists start believing that a game using 'yellow paint' as a solution is automatically bad and the more they start noticing it. So the end note of this video is kinda shooting itself in the foot. 'Don't be too harsh on the yellow paint, please'... Well, you know, we weren't going to, but you just told us it's bad, actually, and now our attention has been drawn to it.
@@RvEijndhoven I mainly play older games (1990 - 2010) and I have no idea what games you are referring to. I can't think of any game from that era like Doom, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Halo, RE, Diablo, etc that uses something even remotely close to yellow paint to guide the player.
@@RvEijndhovenI have definitely noticed it in games that use traversal as a puzzle mechanic, such as Zelda or Horizon Zero Dawn. After the first time I realized why that color was there, I almost always think, "Ah, that's pretty heavy-handed, isn't it?" The exception is the few times I thought, "Oh thank God. This is the right direction." The last bit usually makes up for all the other times. :D
@@RvEijndhoven I am old enough that I grew up on an Atari 2600 and an NES. I can’t think of a single game that used this until Zelda: Twilight Princess. And even that didn’t use it a ton. Can you name some examples of older games that did this, please?
I find a lot of subtle but clear changes in color like making the rocks a darker or lighter color to climb on worked a lot better back in my day, and it makes sense also that climbable rocks would be more smooth and changed
then you run into issues with lighting and day and night cycles, what could look like a darker/lighter shade of rock in one lighting condition, is completely or nearly indistinguishable in another
for an example of something pulling me out of the experience I can think of recently, both FF7 Remake and Rebirth have had these mini mission where you're searching for a person or multiple people. In dialog you are given a description of a specific, unique attribute to help you find them, but also when you get even a slightly close to them there's a waypoint above their heads that will even show up through walls, completely defeating the purpose even having the task of looking for them in the environment
As an old gamer, I am fully on board w/ hating this aspect of modern gaming. One of MANY reasons I don't have any desire to play the half dozen FF7 remake games they've got lined up at 70 bucks a pop that people are slavishly buying. If you've played the Gothic games and you've seen the gameplay of the remake coming out later this year... it's horrific. It would be like if they remade Half-Life 1 and gave it the writing of Forspoken.
@@yondertwitch Exactly, old games just did things better. I remember when I was 9 and Fortnite just came out, it was so fun. Now it's all pop culture crossovers.
Gonna have to agree with you there, for modern games its crazy that turning off waypoints or quest markers isn't in the options every time. It should be! Have it on by default sure, but turning it off should be just a setting menu away. In Yakuza I love immersing myself in the cities but there is an unavoidable map marker should I even open the map for a second (minimap turned off, of course). Just drives me crazy. In the same vein, I disabled waypoints in Skyrim and used mods to get more descriptive quests and instructions.
Not only has visual clutter made games less fun to navigate, it has made them less appealing in general. I will always be more drawn in by a clever and unique stylization than a hyper realistic environment.
I second this sentiment. I don't even think that immersion is necessarily helped by high fidelity graphics. Papers, please, Citizen Sleeper and Celeste are three examples where my investment in the games world, story or character has been the highest. And don't get me wrong, these games are all gorgeous in their own way, but it's style/artistic integrity over fidelity.
That is pretty subjective. It is certainly a valid read that "visual clutter" has made games less enjoyable. But it is probably not the universal opinion or there would likely be less of it. I for one am enjoying the added detail to the world's of the games I play. Not saying you are wrong but it is not as cut and dry as you make it out
My eyes can't focus on some of the more recent games that are just suuuper detailed I was watching a friend play Ghosts of Tsushima recently, and it was just too much. Everything was so vibrant and high fidelity, that they started to blend together. Without the UI elements I wouldn't have been able to keep track of all the enemies
@@Kufunninapuh I've thought of that before. Immersion is not based on visuals. If it were, live action productions would be the standard. And I find Subnautica way more immersive than Seinfeld.
At the risk of taking away from the overall point of the video, the best part was hearing that others at GDC are abandoning their corporate slave drivers to forge their own paths! You guys at Second Wind are inspiring positive change, who could have thought!
It's still concerning that indie devs are struggling to get funding for their projects at the moment, now that epic and xbox are less charitable with buying exclusivity. Hoping people can make ends meet and arent forced to go back to their old offices.
Unfortunately, as you age, you see this story happen over and over and over and over and over again. The workers who flee the corporate slave drivers will frequently BECOME the next decade's future slave drivers. Activision and Electronic Arts were literally FOUNDED on this concept... fleeing from the big evil of the day: Atari Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen... just pointing out that it's an inevitable cycle. Many of the people you admire for what they're doing will turn... because gamemaking is a business, and businesses are money-driven. Simple reality. Sorta like when Kickstarter was worshipped as "get out from under the big evil publishers" (and absolutely publishers deserve the hate they get)... half a decade later everyone was hating on it because *THEY* got a taste of the nightmare it is to fund some of these creative types like Tim Schafer. We, as a group, learned what those in the industry already know: Some amazingly creative people *NEED* the business types to rein them in every now and then. Ideally, every group would have a Steve Jobs AND a Steve Wozniak... but that ain't reality. *SOMEONE* has to control the money and determine when and where it gets spent. So yeah, I am also glad to see this happen. I just hope people don't expect too much. Humanity is full of humans, after all.
As an Environment Artist i wholeheartedly agree with this video. Different departments are siloed off and departments often communicate their intents poorly due to a variety of reasons as mentioned in the video. My biggest hope is that studios will adopt a setting where departments are mixed together more, having small teams based on sections of the game instead of the job that is being done. Perhaps education sessions with these teams would also help so that artists can learn more about the intent of level designers on a project, and designers learning to use artistic elements and terminology to communicate with artists to further enhance and integrate designs with art.
Well my favourite games are dark souls 1 and 3. The art is beautiful and balanced with some of the best level design I've ever played. When both click, it really makes games more immurisive.
@@SimuLord While John does have a share in the blame, it should be noted that a lot of the board of directors were also behind the initiative to monetize the hell out of Unity, and that none of them had been removed, just Riccitello. Unity's reputation has been ruined, and the blame only falls on one guy.
Thanks for the excellent video. I can't remember the game but I remember that I would end up focusing on the minimap to get around instead of looking at the actual game because the environment was so cluttered.
I had some moments in open world platforming games like Horizon Zero Dawn and Dying Light were it seemed a bit emersion breaking seeing the same yellow sheets or vines or cables draped over ledges that marked them as climbable. I think at that point it just became part of the game but definitely made the world feel a little more artificial in that there's specific paths marked for progression. Makes me think of a whole team of unseen technicians rushing to prepare these ledges and wall climb sections before the main character gets there. The true unsung heroes of these worlds.
I think visual clutter is one of the reasons we are starting to see a lot of games built around looking retro. There's been a massive boom in boomer shooters and ps1 throwback games which all have much less detail but are much easier to read.
I'd say that's largely because it's easier for small teams to make and because of nostalgia for the time. It just so happens to be a style that's great for visual clarity and artistic expression.
I'm experiencing this right now in final fantasy 7 rebirth. Every screen and environment is so loaded up with stuff that they have to have super hand holdy ui and an agent that won't shut up about the next thing you need to find and of course the dreaded yellow paint. I would have gladly accepted a more muted design with less environmental assets and cities without 200 NPCs that you can't talk to to find the three you can.
Interestingly enough, couldn't figure out how to get to one of the "Ubisoft"-style towers in Gongaga Jungle because of all the pretty. Ended up having to google it after it stopped being fun looking for the path, which is a hard fail of design. (Turned out it was a set of stairs in the water I just missed from all the pretty, even when I KNEW I was probably looking for stairs)
The worst I find is the tendancy to make everything dark. It really makes playing some games incredibly difficult, and I end up turning the brightness up even to max in certain games.
My favourite way of dealing with the visual clatter is making actually intuitive “pointers”. Take for exemple firewatch’s map, it pinpoints your exact location, but you have to figure out which way to go using compass and your own orientation skills, so you can freely admire the landscape.
Something I've noticed in games where detailed visuals confuse level design, especially when the designers then slap on the yellow paint or a relevant-object-o-vision filter, is that it makes me actually see the pretty environments LESS. If I'm focused on looking for the next trail marker, or busy reading the data in my scan visor, it makes the rest of the visuals become so much noise, to the point where I can't even remember what environmental details there were in the area I just traversed, just doorway -> chest high wall -> resource node -> climbable ledge. It's kind of sad that the environment artists are shooting themselves in the foot like that, because the environments in so many games I've played are just gorgeous, but if I have to look THROUGH the environment to play the game, I'm not gonna actually SEE it.
I can't tell you how many games I basically navigated by looking at the bottom of the screen map without once looking at the surroundings. When a simplified version of the landscape is the only way to navigate, I think there is something wrong.
I feel the same way about the “yellow paint” issue as I do the “characters spoil the puzzle before you can solve it” issue. I never asked for environments this detailed - Twilight Princess is still the peak for game visuals as far as I’m concerned - but because they are, the gameplay suffers, and the solution to that problem created an even bigger one.
I disagree. Puzzles not being given time to solve is one thing. But "yellow paint" is an accessibility feature for a person with debilitating migraines like me, who really would like an easy way to see the path from point A to point B
@@votch2798disagree again. In order for that to be the case, everything would have to be essentially linear. While I enjoy a well-crafted linear experience, the ability to create nonlinear experiences (whether in level design or player agency) really is essential to most modern gaming expectations and experiences
Before it made traversal skills irrelevant, warframe did a good job of avoiding yellow paint in a way that mostly doesnt stand out. Spaces where you are intended to wall run to navigate the level frequently have a little bit of wear that highlights them. Its most visible in the oldest tileset, grineer asteroid, but still shows up in some newer tilesets that still rely on a bit of wallrunning, such as the gas city.
I hold the first Mirror's Edge in such high regard on that aspect: when I started the game for the first time, I've been thrown off by the red "runner sense" highlight feature. I immediately turned that stuff off to really immerse myself in the no-UI flow of the game and you know what? It's not even needed! The levels are, aside a couple of exceptions, so clear and well thought out that you don't need explicit UI highlights to play it. There are enough "natural" cues to catch your attention when and where it is needed, so you end up "feeling" the path as you run through it without the "runner sense" crutch. Of course this isn't an argument to remove the highlight, it's a great accessibility/difficulty feature, but I found it interesting how the level design was so on point that it is optional even on a first playthrough.
There have been times where I had to google the way forward because the path forward was obscured by the way the environment was designed. A ladder hidden in the murky darkness, blocked by clutter and having the exact same color pallet at the background. It's less that the game is too pretty, but more that the game is too visually busy. Like an IKEA without the arrows or the grey lane you're supposed to follow.
3:00 - Ironically, this is an exit. The entrance that gets you on the other side of that fence is more hidden, and you have to explore the map to get there.
A couple of comments from me: 1) Obviously, well done. Also congrats on having a good team to work with. 2) I've played several games, where the path or objective was so hard to find, cause you just couldn't see a bloody thing through the clutter 3) I've played games, which were almost railroading through level design, making the art design just fade out like it wasn't even there 4) Both are bad. 5) BUT... I have played some games, where the overclutter IS part of the level design. Legends of Kyrandia point'n'click adventure series. Part of the fun was finding what you wanted hidden in the art on screen AND not getting fooled by false things placed among them. Absolutely brilliant. And the interactable objects weren't highlighted in any special way from the background as was the case in some p'n'c games.
Level information density has also been on my mind lately. I have been introducing my girlfriend to gaming and talking her through some things that she may not 'get' in regards to how games are designed and what they expected her to learn, but a very huge thing has just been her strain to parse information in the environment and have the ability to understand 'what can i interact with or what information is communicated to me that i should take note of'. Stray featured heavily in this video and i bet that's for a good reason. I could very quickly understand with years of gaming behind me that the bird spikes on AC units in the environment were places where i couldn't climb... but of course my girlfriend just couldn't tell the difference between them and the usable ones. There was so much /stuff/ in Stray that it made it hard for her to parse what was a blocked off passage that shouldn't be tried to gotten around, and what actually could have. Same for how most windows are closed but you need to go through some of them which are open and barely lit by a single lamp if that. I then backpaddled and have been showing her stylised cartoony games with little clutter density and she's been finding it easier to not be confused by the environment and the cues. She is still amazed by my ability to read an level and understand "yeah, we need to go through there, to get there, and jump up there and i assume drop down there", when all she often sees are jumbles of unremarkable features. It took me explaining highlighted edges as climb spots for her to understand that's what those mean, as she came in with ZERO experience and knowledge of game design shortcuts currently in use that most players will get and understand.. but.. a few will be utterly left behind or clueless. Also the Bog's challenges in communication reminds me of another in the same vein, Carrion. That game also has to maximally use its levels and sound design to communicate gameplay concepts. PS: Also, with how modern developers are treating DLSS/FSR/XeSS as crutches to not optimise their games, you even end up in the situation where some things which /were/ used as vital clues to explain interaction, like said bird spikes on AC units, can get lost in the upscaling, or when you go to lower lighting, volumetric or shadow quality.
Wow the bog sounds like a really cool premise and I am really excited to learn more/play it. As someone who gets distracted very easily I find a lot of visual clutter just gets me frustrated. Don’t get me wrong I love a well built world, but it still needs make sense to get around in. Also I get different teams being in different departments for large companies, but it just makes more sense for the art team and environment team to work together so they can deal with the issues you and Ludo spoke about before they become huge problems.
A problem is level designers have to build a whole game just to build a level because they start from scratch in a modern engine. Unreal engine is made for artists and not level designers sadly, and their is the the problem of fun. Where is the fun? Well the industry needs only art to sell a game in the triple A space.
The ability to tell what's important easily through visual cues is what made me like Team Fortress 2 above games like Call of Duty. TF2 went to great lengths to make sure that you could both easily see your opponents and tell what they capable of at a glance. There's so much stuff in CoD that makes the world feel more real while also making it really hard to tell stuff apart.
For me, yellow paint is less of a problem because at least it's silent. What actually bothers me is when you're in a room and you know what to do but you want to look around for goodies and your character won't shut up about what you're supposed to be doing, like "I think i can move these things to get across that gap." Which is made worse when the game throws up a floating dialogue box saying "look at this thing and do this."
This extends beyond graphics. Animations do that too. Animations so detailed, and lifelike, that they start to lose meaining in the simple gaming calculus. Thinking about games like Uncharted, where so much is going on there, with so little input during fist fights and traversal, that you cant really imagine whats going to happen you hit a button. I think this is another reason from the laundry list of reasons, why soulsborne games are so successful. Their combat is extremely easy to visualize. Thats why you feel that dread, when you mess up and know that youll be pummeled in 2-3 seconds and can do nothing about it. You can also be relatively confident about the the trajectory of your attacks, because of that.
I guess level design clarity is also why "stark white character in a dark environment" is something I've seen before. The Bog looks great, but I can't help be compare it to Ori and Rain World in my head.
I have JUST experienced this! On Marvel Midnight Suns, exploring the chapel grounds is a nightmare! There is so much visual clutter I can't see the roads and I am always lost, even after 40 hours of playtime.
I really enjoyed Midnight Suns, but I felt that. I can't stand fast-travelling and STILL not being able to tell where I am. I open the map to see what direction I'm facing, still can't tell how the map relates to the actual environment, so I move around a bit opening the map again to triangulate where the hell I'm actually going before I finally find the path I'm trying to reach.
One design I really appreciate is the pawn system in dragons dogma 2. Not only can they provide useful hints for quests and pointing out hidden ladders or treasure chests, but they can also act as a guide to the location you want to go to, which keeps your eyes off the mini map so you can appreciate surroundings.
It is kinda annoying when they chime in with a "over here Arisen, I know what to do!" And ruin finding them, but luckily there's a dedicated "shut up and lemme figure it out" button for that. Also the few missions that did require some more player-sleuthing, Pawns weren't allowed.
I'm colorblind, so yea, visual clutter, particularly foliage, really screws things over for me. Far Cry or the like are real trouble. So for me, having the clear "OVER HERE DUDE!" indicators is highly appreciated. really liked horizon forbidden west's "scan" thing that showed it to you in a digital UI overlay that was utterly clear but also only there when you activated it. other games have had "yellow paint" that was more subtle, like worn rock or bird droppings on a ledge, which was actually so effective at blending in with the environment, I didn't notice it was a hint.
Your point about how AAA dev teams are generally in segregated teams based on their purpose and are in effect put in competition with one another in order to keep their jobs is something I hadn't considered before when trying to affirm my pro-indie game biases. Instead of just "indie game devs have more passion" or "they have a vision that isn't meddled with by publishers," knowing how different the work culture generally is between the two types of games serves as a more concrete reason why larger teams so often fail.
I like how in the Metro games, if you ever feel lost you can look almost anywhere and find some broken street sign literally pointing the direction you are meant to move. Confusion doesn't happen often (with levels usually being mostly linear anyways), and they blend in enough, that they don't take you out of the experience much.
Portal 2 came close to it sometimes in those underground caverns, which were so vast and detailed that it was sometimes hard to figure out where you were supposed to go next.
When I think about this topic the very first game that springs to mind is Borderlands 3. When it released I bought a copy to play with my partner. We installed the game, sat down on the lounge to play splitscreen, made our way through the opening area . . . and found we couldn't tell the enemies we were meant to be shooting apart from the environment around them. We made it through the early levels, but only by using their health bars to aim. Though the game had a splitscreen mode, it was impossible to play because the enemies and environment were too detailed and shared too much of the same colour palette. We dropped the game after one session and never came back to it.
Yellow paint is neither good nor evil to me, it feels like a disgusting wart that's grown on the face on the industry due to other issues. Stemming from mismanagement and time crunch, developers have had to come up with new intelligent ways to guide players through their levels, and instead of getting time to work together on developing intelligently laid out levels with beautiful scenery that doesn't clash with the intended gameplay, level artists have had to resort to working out their own solutions. It is a necessary evil at this moment in time, and I hope we can look back on it as a thing of the past in future titles.
It’s interesting to watch these videos and apply them to other art forms. (I’m a musician.) It’s really cool to try to find the fundamental problems and apple it to your craft. This video was a cautionary tale for me that you shouldn’t place form over function. And I REALLY need to learn that lesson. I’ve come to love these videos
You're totally right that when there's too many assets in view players can end up feeling lost, but on the other side of the coin, clutter can also be used extremely effectively to hide and obfuscate secrets and items in games such as Elden ring or even the recent Dragons Dogma 2. It's so easy to miss an item, cave or tomb entrance due to visual clutter and it becomes - atleast to some extent - more rewarding when you find the more cleverly hidden ones. It's a tough balancing act and it doesn't work in every genre of gaming either. Great topic for discussion though, thanks!
Two examples that immediately came to mind during this were Assassin's Creed pre-Origins, and Horizon: Zero Dawn. Because AC I feel, actually managed to navigate it's visual clutter really well. Handholds and ledges were really obvious, but still worked with the world, and so climbing and parkour always felt really smooth and natural, and you got used to hunting for that out-of-place brick, or the crack in the cliff, or the piece of scaffolding. Horizon, however, had bright yellow handholds for EVERYTHING, and so I always felt both patronised and walled-in when climbing.
As someone with absolutely horrible depth perception when playing video games, I really struggle sometimes reading what is essentially a 2D image of a 3D space. Good level design is so important for me. I can't tell you how many games I've rage quit because the opening levels aren't designed in a way that teaches me how to read them. And how grateful I can feel for a simple indicator of "Oi, over here, you can climb this wall!"
Let me start by saying I love your videos. They give a behind the scene look at things gamer take for granted. With that out of the way I think with The Bog the way you explain it really sounds like "This triple axle is really hard to do, especially blindfolded with an arm tied behind your back." So yes it's hard but along the way you decided to flex too. Communication as you've said must have been really important for clarity and is more possible in smaller indie studios where office politics doesn't get in the way.
Beauty and realism aren't the same thing. Furthermore, realism doesn't necessitate the absurd clutter we often see in newer (Especially post-apocalyptic) games. Sometimes areas are just clean guys!
What I truly dislike about the yellow paint is that it seems so obvious, an obvious "We don't trust you to look here, so we made it obvious", which always feels so disheartening to see because its basically the game telling me, the player, that it has no trust in me finding the right path to take. Obviously, not everyone will get it, but I think good leveldesign can naturally guide the players flow and gameplay to choosing the most logical path forward without having to point it out. Same with the barrels in Resident Evil 4. Even without a glow to the containers like in the original, simply establishing a set model for containers and keeping that one consistent would have been enough. Everything is clutter, but a round barrel is container? Got it, look for barell of the same size every time. Or simply having the buttonprompt to interact with it appear when you get close would have been just enough.
I feel like there's something to be said for a game that's so realistic it counterintuitively ruins verisimilitude. A core aspect of immersion is forgetting that you're playing a game, and you can't do that if your gameplay amounts to roleplaying a hopelessly lost man who treats the world like a giant museum whose exhibits are all hidden around whichever corner he's not fully explored yet. Having less visual detail (while still having a "realistic style") can result in more "as if you were there in real life" type gameplay, because the player isn't consistantly looking around trying to take all the small details in. And more immersed play results in a less critical look at the graphics.
Yellow Paint is nowhere near as annoying as "NPC telling you how to solve a puzzle cause you fumbled with it several times" (looking at YOU GoW Ragnarok) or "NPC telling you to hurry up in the background while your trying to take in the world around you" (looking at YOU Dead Space Remake)
I always envisioned an entity which takes the form of an old hooded hermit that transcends video games and walks with a buck of yellow paint around slapping it on all of the location needed to get the player where they need to go. I don't know why I think of this but it seemed to have made sense to me in a strange logic of sorts lol.
I wouldn't say this is a new problem. I remember when Gears of War (2006) come out and them talking about building the entire level/game in Maya then importing to Unreal, which was a shift from building in engine with an editor and using BSP (Binary Space Partitions) to box the level out, then texture the walls and place static models in the environment. Games were becoming more art focused and less level design focused even at that point in the 360/PS3 era. I remember having talks with other level designers at the time about we are less and less of a focus. Design has always been tricky like that. Good design can be almost invisible, but good developers will always know just how damn important it is.
My brother is very good at playing games and we both struggled to complete the tutorial in Avatar because we couldn't identify what we should be interacting with in the overforested open world. So there's definitely a sense that the visual design is getting in the way. Additionally, I want to know if anyone is with me on this, but I feel less motivation to explore things when I feel like it isn't being deliberately placed by a level designer. Even though the worlds are beautiful, I feel like I don't want to explore them because the generative nature of them feels like exploring them is just busy work. Anyone with me on this?
Good example is left for dead 1. The original Turtle Rock Studios maps were FULL of environmental storytelling and debris, decals, etc. Valve basically had to remove a lot of it so players could have a clear path through the level and be directed. Hell they even have that red spray paint that says "SAFE HOUSE ->"
Games that have incredible, realistic, and cluttered visuals also attract gamers looking to explore organically. Games have to satisfy those players either by making being lost fun, or by creating the illusion that the players are forging their own path. People say they hate yellow paint because it's "lazy" or "breaks immersion", but I suspect the reason is they want to feel lost and have fun doing it. That's insanely difficult for sure, but yellow paint as a solution to that is like telling someone with bed sores to try taking a nap. Yellow paint directly prevents them from being lost and is not fun outside of sending players to the fun. It makes beautiful levels feel like just a bridge between fun sections. Not every player wants to get lost in worlds and many want to complete quests and progress story beats quickly. AAA games are finding it increasingly difficult to make games that cater to everybody and yellow paint is just the cleanest example of this.
I’m one of those who prefers clutter, exploring, and feeling lost in an overly detailed environment, even if the interactions amount to nothing more than scrabbling up a junk pile and enjoying the scenery, or knocking a bottle off a table with my little cat paw. But if it’s going to be that sort of environment (which isn’t for everyone), then it does need a different language for how players are given hints toward finding something interesting-like an odd-looking tree or distant cliff formation or what have you. And it does need more little rewards (visual, interactivity) for being lost in the clutter. I can’t even imagine something like a RDR2 having giant “look over here” searchlights all over it like an AC Valhalla.
I agree, but I think you’re only halfway there. The issue isn’t “one wants to wander, and the other wants to be pointed to the objective, how do you reconcile?” You could easily have less obtrusive markers than yellow paint, basically just having a waypoint like the traditional floating arrow or the thematically appropriate wind from Ghost of Tsushima. The real issue is that they’re mostly linear games being sold as if they’re open when they’re not. Which is why you have characters with limited mobility, than can only do [traversal action] at specific points on a specific path, rather than during all contexts. And this applies to whether one type of object is interactable too. More contrast between the two so it’s more obvious and there’s less confusion. But if you’re really set on a linear game with more room to “explore”, then make “paths” wider. Example, if you’re climbing straight up a cliff, don’t have grabbable rocks where the path is as narrow as the player character’s body. It makes it feel claustrophobic your hand is being forced. Instead, have that path 5x wider. Nothing changes fundamentally, you’re still climbing up that one side, in that one direction. But now it doesn’t feel like you’re funnelled through a tunnel (even when you’re outside). Ideally, you’d be able to scale said cliff from any side, but it depends on what you’re trying to make.
I think yellow point has a purpose, but it's limited to tutorials where the player is expected to learn the indication of climbing, vaulting, or crawling. But the. Take them away afterwards.
A few years ago, i played Breath of the Wild, Gothic 2 and Witcher 3 pretty much back to back. And what you are saying here perfectly summarizes my experience with these three games. The Gothic games are ooooold, but have a stylized artstyle that's easy to read and still is able to create an immersive atmosphere. I never was confused what i could or couldn't pick up or interact with. And i could easily recognize different areas in the game world. Breath of the Wild is of course far more modern but still has a very stylized artstyle that also makes it easy to read your surroundings and recognize what what you can interact with or pick up. Also, the map design is so insanely good that i can watch over my wife's shoulder while she plays, see a monster camp in a forest and still tell exactly where she is, because every area is *that* uniquely handcrafted. Witcher 3 was incredibly hard to read. I constantly needed the witcher senses to be able to find out where i am supposed to go, what i can and should interact with and what is just decorative clutter. Not to mention that navigating the forests and swamps of Velen without your minimap is hopeless. Witcher 3 is still a phantastic game for other reasons, but the readability of the graphics was abysmal for me.
I think it was in a Valve game (probably HL2 or Portal), they mentioned how they used lighting to draw the players attention and help them navigate. So, either this has become less possible because of all the stuff/tech the devs are trying to find space for, the publisher is trying to make the game more appealing to "everyone", or they're having to accommodate for gamers like DSP >_>
As always, great video JM8! (and that ending bit with Ludo being a sweary girl, lol) Was happy to hear more on your experiences with working on The Bog, I'm unbelievably hyped for that game. Hopefully a day one purchase for me. Really reminds me of the underwater horror game that I wanted Silt to be, but better!
I'm reminded of when Yahtzee covered that one future-y magenta game a month or two ago and talked about how things can be overdesigned to the point of meaninglessness. Sometimes more budget to give "more detail" to the assets isn't a good idea.
I encounter this kind of problem when I played HZD: Forbidden West. The environments were so lush and realistic that, without the Focus highlights, I would not be able to fine the interact points in the areas.
Oh, for sure, more cluttered environments have been detrimental to my play, mostly when I get lost looking for secrets. Sometimes I wish the way forward were *more* obvious just so I can avoid that direction to explore everything.
I actually ran into this problem with Mario Kart 8. Everything is so shiny and busy that it actually becomes hard for me to find the road. Every signpost needs extra detail to look extra believable, but it ends up making the shape less distinct. Now that I think about it, road signs IRL look as flat as possible so you can actually read them. On the upside, I think I understand what the word "hyperrealistic" means now.
The concept art for the bog remind of rain world in all the best ways (besides just the main character) I adore ui minimalist atmospheric games like it and hollow knight and I hope to hear when and where I can wishlist and follow the game!
I have noticed a lot more yellow paint these days. Granted, I don't play a ton of AAA, but the ones I do, sometimes it is literal yellow paint, sometimes it is a giant tarp draped over a stack of boxes that don't make diegetic sense when you think about why they would be there. I am far more drawn to games with unique stylistic looks, or games that don't mind you getting a little lost. Elden Ring does some great navigation work with just a well placed torch here or there, or maybe a glowing flower that could just as well scream "ambush" as "the way you should go".
This reminds me of a video that criticized the last Thief game to come out because the game was too linear and it needed a UI to help you navigate, but trying to explore it without the UI just made you lost. It's easy to forget that sometimes developers feel compelled to add things to make levels easier to navigate because obviously they want the player to win, but it backfires and makes the actual traversal of the level less engaging.
It boggles my mind that big studios still haven't figured out how to keep design consistent and communicate across large organizations. This is stuff software developers figured out decades ago. This is just more evidence that the industry itself, at least at the AAA scale, is not run very well.
I think it's the bloat of tripple A. Game devs used to have a small core dev team that all trust eachother. Past 100 people in house politics rise and divides trust.
You trying to explain the difference between level designer and artist reminds me of my professor trying to explain the difference between an intior decorator and an intior designer.
Doom Eternal's climbable walls are so hard to spot in all the clutter. Some of it is the environmental artist's fault as they sometimes swap texture and blend too well into the environment. I have sometimes got stuck and had to look up online to figure out where to go next, only to realise there is a climbable wall in plain sight.
@@DasGanon true, but I prefer that over not knowing where to go. All the paint and green lights also helped keeping the pace consistent. It would of course be better with something else to lead the player
@@SimpleSaemple Can't say I relate as I've never had trouble distinguishing climbable surfaces in DE. I mean, it's always either a section of a wall that has had its upper layer removed in a conveniently rectangular(-ish) shape with small grooves littering the surface, or a perfectly rectangular metal covering with similar grooves (and red-colored hazards at times).
@@DasGanon Yes but that's just good design. Leading a player is not a bad thing, doing it in a way that does not fit the environment is when it becomes a problem.
I've never heard of chiaroscuro being used as an "english" term anywhere else outside of vocal pedagogy, so it was cool to see that the concept can be applied in other ways.
I love these vids. Listening to you, Yatz and Tim Cain really make me wanna give game development a shot. But as a full time worker and parent of two small kids, I don't see myself picking up a "hobby" with such a steep learning curve right now. Still, you are super inspiring and informative to listen to.
I like the satisfaction of finding things myself rather than being guided with yellow paint however, you mentioned escort mission. If you can manage make it feel neither utterly pointless or frustratingly difficult, that would be an achievement for the books.
I've always appreciated a "less is more" approach when it comes to a game's art style. Not that I want a game to spell it out for me, but more in a way of showing just enough to get your gameplay across. FEZ's level design is just cubic sections, but it's constructed in a way that's both pleasing to the eye and easy to read.
Personally, I do a lot of the detailing on the environments in the game I’m working on as a level designer. I use a lot of modular pieces. I can arrange the placeholder pieces so that the visuals work with sight lines, framing, leading lines, etc… then the artists come in to swap out all the placeholders with the final game art. Our game also uses a fixed camera which helps guide the player and give them information without needing for constant UI or yellow fabric. And because there is only one view point, environments can be composed with more intention, making sure things don’t get in the way or block your view. 2D games also have a similar advantage with the camera perspective. Although, our game is going for a more stylized look, so that definitely helps to keep things cleaner.
The first time I noticed this issue was when I played Silent Hill: Downpour. Every Silent Game takes place in similar environments, but man, it is so much harder to find items in Downpour than it is in the PS1 and PS2 games. In those, items just naturally stand out in the environment, but in Downpour there's so much junk - as in, literal, actual garbage - in the streets that every item just blends in with the background. Downpour doesn't use any UI elements to highlight them, so you basically have to rely on luck to find anything.
Your crying in the thumbnail JM8 reminds me of when I first saw Journey and Flower on PS4, because *HOLY CRAP! THOSE GAMES ARE GORGEOUS AND BEAUTIFUL! AND MADE ME BREAK DOWN IN HAPPY TEARS BECAUSE I WAS JUST SO HAPPY!!!!!* 😭💖
i go with clutter rules. Dead ends and alternative routes can have more clutter and fewer lights, while the desired path has little touches. Showing its been walked through and more lights
Funny that you used Scorn as a supplemental example here, because I felt that Scorn's level design and art direction worked together extremely well to create the alien atmosphere of the game world. That might be due to the art definitely getting top billing, forcing the level designers to build from the world design instead of the other way around like in your game, but regardless I found the puzzle mechanics were well served by this choice. It became a game of discovering what weird mechanics existed and piecing together your interaction, where the "what do I do now" was in service to the game instead of detracting from it.
I’d also say that this amount of “visual clutter” actively makes some games more difficult to run if you don’t have a strong enough GPU. Unless I’ve just cleaned my laptop’s insides, it struggles to run games like Helldivers 2 at 60 fps (or sometimes even 30), and I largely suspect that it’s due to the sheer amount of particle effects. Oh, and even when in top shape, I still have to use minimal graphics settings. This isn’t the only game where I have this issue, but it is the most recent.
We're back from GDC! Jetlag hit us in the face but regardless i hope you enjoy this episode from tired Ludo & I. What topic would you like to see us tackle next? LET US KNOW!!
If you enjoy the show please consider supporting us all making this weird content over on Patreon: www.patreon.com/SecondWindGroup
I'd personally be interested in hearing your take on how a focus on characters, or lack thereof, affects player investment in games! I've noticed that a lot of games lately, probably inspired by Soulsbournes, put a ton of work onto, and emphasis on, worldbuilding, but very little into characters (at least, that the player can see outside of reading about it outside of their experience with playing the game, which just feels like more worldbuilding to me). I think some really cool lore/environments have been created this way, but it usually comes off as feeling a bit flat to me, and makes it hard for me to feel engaged with the story, or care much about what's going on. I know a lot of people really love this style of storytelling in games, though, so I'd love to know what you guys have to say about it!
What did you say at 5:25? "Lighting or _________ can be used"? The automatic captions with their "Kiros skuro" isn't very helpful.
@@420cactusgaming7 Chiaroscuro, the interplay between shadows and light.
I am really curious about focus groups/focus testing when it comes to gaming. It's a subject I don't really know much about. I would really like to understand it more and WHY developers base their game design decisions on what a small handful of 100 people could or could not do in terms of their games.
🥰😍🤩😘
Isn't the quote "An architect's dream is an engineer's nightmare"?
The thing is that considering how the building design interacts with actual functionality of the space for the end user is supposed to be part of the architect's job, not just making it look cool.
@@noatrope That makes sense. I imagine if game artists adopted a similar ethos when creating art for worlds or levels it'd help things immensely.
Aye, that's why architecture is still work - they still have to do the unfun part where they have to accommodate for spoilsports like "gravity" and "people"!
As an electrician I hate both the architect and engineer. Both never consider how the electrician is actually supposed to do the job
@@noatrope Firmitatis, utilitatis, venustatis. Stability, utility, beauty. The three classical pillars of architecture. A building needs to be structurally stable. A building needs to serve its intended purpose. And a building needs to look good, for its users and passersby.
Making a stable building that serves its users needs is literally an architect's job.
The very fact that so many games now have some form of "Eagle Hision" or Witcher Senses" as a narrative-based reason to strip all the pretty visuals away to show you what you need to be looking at to play the game proves ypur point perfectly.
Dead Space gives you a literal line on the floor to follow.
I think Arkham started the trend with "Detective Vision". Games that use stealth use it a lot and I wonder if any games implement the mechanic in a aesthetically pleasing way. Arkham made it look cool by highlighting the characters' skeleton.
@@Nathaniel2Leinahtan1Actually the Arkham games are a good example. I recently replayed Aslyum and City, and I found that while I only ever used detecta-vision while there were enemies or stealth encounters in Asylum, I was using it way more with City. Aslyum was nicely paced out with introducing you to each place on the map and it being automatically obvious where they were. With City I found the map a bit too sprawling and gloomy and I found myself just using detecta-vision way more and getting lost a lot.
(Also I know it's Detective-vision not Detecta-vision, the latter just has a better flow to me)
I...uhm...wait....omg
@@Nathaniel2Leinahtan1 Mirror’s Edge was a bit earlier with runner’s vision.
The best example of “yellow paint” working really well was the bright red objects in mirrors edge because it really fit the design choices while also being a clear signpost for players saying “hey look! Over here!”
Felt even better when you could switch off the red highlights - made you feel as if you had ascended.
The difference is that the "yellow paint" of mirror's edge looked sick as hell, as part of a greater artstyle.
It's even better when they use light, sound, perspective, or any other element than just painting something in an obvious color.
The red elements in Mirror's Edge are also stated to be just Faith's perception of the environment from her own experience and skillset - like an always-on version of Batman's detective vision.
The reason it was such a success was the signal being worked into the rest of the game. It's not really a 'yellow paint' because the yellow paint effect comes from something being out-of-place to the point of being jarring. Through the use of the color palette in Mirrors Edge, they neatly side-step the issue and the signifier becomes a cohesive part of the level aesthetic, rather than something that stands out for the purpose of standing out. Yes, you can tell me the red is "Faith's perspective" but that's not what sells the player on the effect.
I was listening to a podcast complain about yellow paint. There was something like "why do we need yellow ladders? climbing is what ladders are for". I could see 3 yellow ladders IRL from where I was working at the time!
Although real life ladders (and stepladders) are yellow for a different different reason: so people and vehicles don't bump against them by accident.
@@arturoaguilar6002 that's the same reason: to make them more visible
I hardly play AAA games and, as a result, didn't even notice the "yellow paint" thing until someone pointed it out.
Wait, is that why the adventure lines in Stanley's Parable are literally drawn with yellow paint?
You wanna know something really interesting? J makes it sound like the 'yellow paint' is something new devised to guide players where to go in an unsubtle way in environments that are just too pretty and cluttered. But it's not.
It's a concept that was actually first devised when graphics were kinda shit, not just by modern standards but even by the standards of the time. Because as it turns out, having an environment that consists of a bunch of simple polygons with textures that you can count the pixels on stapled to them makes drawing the player's eyes to things that are relevant just as hard as having a gorgeous environments full of visual clutter.
The reality is that _most_ people don't mind, or even notice, the 'yellow paint' in all its various shades and forms (it's not always yellow, it's not always paint). It's mostly just level designers and environmental artists who dislike it because they feel it's too inelegant a solution... And unfortunately the more they talk about not liking it, the more people who aren't level designers and environment artists start believing that a game using 'yellow paint' as a solution is automatically bad and the more they start noticing it.
So the end note of this video is kinda shooting itself in the foot. 'Don't be too harsh on the yellow paint, please'... Well, you know, we weren't going to, but you just told us it's bad, actually, and now our attention has been drawn to it.
@@RvEijndhoven I mainly play older games (1990 - 2010) and I have no idea what games you are referring to. I can't think of any game from that era like Doom, Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Halo, RE, Diablo, etc that uses something even remotely close to yellow paint to guide the player.
@@RvEijndhovenI have definitely noticed it in games that use traversal as a puzzle mechanic, such as Zelda or Horizon Zero Dawn. After the first time I realized why that color was there, I almost always think, "Ah, that's pretty heavy-handed, isn't it?" The exception is the few times I thought, "Oh thank God. This is the right direction." The last bit usually makes up for all the other times. :D
@@RvEijndhoven I am old enough that I grew up on an Atari 2600 and an NES. I can’t think of a single game that used this until Zelda: Twilight Princess. And even that didn’t use it a ton.
Can you name some examples of older games that did this, please?
I find a lot of subtle but clear changes in color like making the rocks a darker or lighter color to climb on worked a lot better back in my day, and it makes sense also that climbable rocks would be more smooth and changed
then you run into issues with lighting and day and night cycles, what could look like a darker/lighter shade of rock in one lighting condition, is completely or nearly indistinguishable in another
You mean like the Looney Tunes style "obviously they drew this pile of rocks separately, therefore we know it will move"?
so... basically paint the rocks yellow, but not THAT yellow
for an example of something pulling me out of the experience I can think of recently, both FF7 Remake and Rebirth have had these mini mission where you're searching for a person or multiple people. In dialog you are given a description of a specific, unique attribute to help you find them, but also when you get even a slightly close to them there's a waypoint above their heads that will even show up through walls, completely defeating the purpose even having the task of looking for them in the environment
the game cost 700 gazillion dollars no one must be left behind
As an old gamer, I am fully on board w/ hating this aspect of modern gaming. One of MANY reasons I don't have any desire to play the half dozen FF7 remake games they've got lined up at 70 bucks a pop that people are slavishly buying.
If you've played the Gothic games and you've seen the gameplay of the remake coming out later this year... it's horrific.
It would be like if they remade Half-Life 1 and gave it the writing of Forspoken.
@@yondertwitch Exactly, old games just did things better. I remember when I was 9 and Fortnite just came out, it was so fun. Now it's all pop culture crossovers.
@@votch2798 Man, this is such a perfect comment. I can't tell if it's satire or genuine, but either way it's 👌.
Gonna have to agree with you there, for modern games its crazy that turning off waypoints or quest markers isn't in the options every time. It should be! Have it on by default sure, but turning it off should be just a setting menu away. In Yakuza I love immersing myself in the cities but there is an unavoidable map marker should I even open the map for a second (minimap turned off, of course). Just drives me crazy. In the same vein, I disabled waypoints in Skyrim and used mods to get more descriptive quests and instructions.
Not only has visual clutter made games less fun to navigate, it has made them less appealing in general. I will always be more drawn in by a clever and unique stylization than a hyper realistic environment.
I second this sentiment. I don't even think that immersion is necessarily helped by high fidelity graphics. Papers, please, Citizen Sleeper and Celeste are three examples where my investment in the games world, story or character has been the highest. And don't get me wrong, these games are all gorgeous in their own way, but it's style/artistic integrity over fidelity.
That is pretty subjective. It is certainly a valid read that "visual clutter" has made games less enjoyable. But it is probably not the universal opinion or there would likely be less of it. I for one am enjoying the added detail to the world's of the games I play. Not saying you are wrong but it is not as cut and dry as you make it out
My eyes can't focus on some of the more recent games that are just suuuper detailed
I was watching a friend play Ghosts of Tsushima recently, and it was just too much. Everything was so vibrant and high fidelity, that they started to blend together. Without the UI elements I wouldn't have been able to keep track of all the enemies
@@Kufunninapuh I've thought of that before. Immersion is not based on visuals. If it were, live action productions would be the standard. And I find Subnautica way more immersive than Seinfeld.
@@FrankDux-uo7ig Meh, I've been outside. Graphics are crisp but art direction sucks.
At the risk of taking away from the overall point of the video, the best part was hearing that others at GDC are abandoning their corporate slave drivers to forge their own paths! You guys at Second Wind are inspiring positive change, who could have thought!
It's still concerning that indie devs are struggling to get funding for their projects at the moment, now that epic and xbox are less charitable with buying exclusivity. Hoping people can make ends meet and arent forced to go back to their old offices.
Unfortunately, as you age, you see this story happen over and over and over and over and over again. The workers who flee the corporate slave drivers will frequently BECOME the next decade's future slave drivers.
Activision and Electronic Arts were literally FOUNDED on this concept... fleeing from the big evil of the day: Atari
Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen... just pointing out that it's an inevitable cycle. Many of the people you admire for what they're doing will turn... because gamemaking is a business, and businesses are money-driven. Simple reality.
Sorta like when Kickstarter was worshipped as "get out from under the big evil publishers" (and absolutely publishers deserve the hate they get)... half a decade later everyone was hating on it because *THEY* got a taste of the nightmare it is to fund some of these creative types like Tim Schafer. We, as a group, learned what those in the industry already know: Some amazingly creative people *NEED* the business types to rein them in every now and then.
Ideally, every group would have a Steve Jobs AND a Steve Wozniak... but that ain't reality. *SOMEONE* has to control the money and determine when and where it gets spent.
So yeah, I am also glad to see this happen. I just hope people don't expect too much. Humanity is full of humans, after all.
As an Environment Artist i wholeheartedly agree with this video. Different departments are siloed off and departments often communicate their intents poorly due to a variety of reasons as mentioned in the video. My biggest hope is that studios will adopt a setting where departments are mixed together more, having small teams based on sections of the game instead of the job that is being done. Perhaps education sessions with these teams would also help so that artists can learn more about the intent of level designers on a project, and designers learning to use artistic elements and terminology to communicate with artists to further enhance and integrate designs with art.
Well my favourite games are dark souls 1 and 3. The art is beautiful and balanced with some of the best level design I've ever played. When both click, it really makes games more immurisive.
Ludo using Unity as a toilet. Beautiful.
I totally missed that. Awesome.
And not for the first time.
@@SimuLord because the rich always fail upwards. As long as you aren’t stealing from other rich twats you fail upwards.
@@SimuLord While John does have a share in the blame, it should be noted that a lot of the board of directors were also behind the initiative to monetize the hell out of Unity, and that none of them had been removed, just Riccitello. Unity's reputation has been ruined, and the blame only falls on one guy.
Thanks for the excellent video.
I can't remember the game but I remember that I would end up focusing on the minimap to get around instead of looking at the actual game because the environment was so cluttered.
I had some moments in open world platforming games like Horizon Zero Dawn and Dying Light were it seemed a bit emersion breaking seeing the same yellow sheets or vines or cables draped over ledges that marked them as climbable. I think at that point it just became part of the game but definitely made the world feel a little more artificial in that there's specific paths marked for progression. Makes me think of a whole team of unseen technicians rushing to prepare these ledges and wall climb sections before the main character gets there. The true unsung heroes of these worlds.
I think visual clutter is one of the reasons we are starting to see a lot of games built around looking retro. There's been a massive boom in boomer shooters and ps1 throwback games which all have much less detail but are much easier to read.
well that & the fact that most Devs that are nostalgic for PS1 graphics were kids when the PS1 came out...
100% agreed
I'd say that's largely because it's easier for small teams to make and because of nostalgia for the time. It just so happens to be a style that's great for visual clarity and artistic expression.
I'm experiencing this right now in final fantasy 7 rebirth. Every screen and environment is so loaded up with stuff that they have to have super hand holdy ui and an agent that won't shut up about the next thing you need to find and of course the dreaded yellow paint. I would have gladly accepted a more muted design with less environmental assets and cities without 200 NPCs that you can't talk to to find the three you can.
Interestingly enough, couldn't figure out how to get to one of the "Ubisoft"-style towers in Gongaga Jungle because of all the pretty. Ended up having to google it after it stopped being fun looking for the path, which is a hard fail of design. (Turned out it was a set of stairs in the water I just missed from all the pretty, even when I KNEW I was probably looking for stairs)
The worst I find is the tendancy to make everything dark. It really makes playing some games incredibly difficult, and I end up turning the brightness up even to max in certain games.
My favourite way of dealing with the visual clatter is making actually intuitive “pointers”. Take for exemple firewatch’s map, it pinpoints your exact location, but you have to figure out which way to go using compass and your own orientation skills, so you can freely admire the landscape.
Something I've noticed in games where detailed visuals confuse level design, especially when the designers then slap on the yellow paint or a relevant-object-o-vision filter, is that it makes me actually see the pretty environments LESS. If I'm focused on looking for the next trail marker, or busy reading the data in my scan visor, it makes the rest of the visuals become so much noise, to the point where I can't even remember what environmental details there were in the area I just traversed, just doorway -> chest high wall -> resource node -> climbable ledge. It's kind of sad that the environment artists are shooting themselves in the foot like that, because the environments in so many games I've played are just gorgeous, but if I have to look THROUGH the environment to play the game, I'm not gonna actually SEE it.
I can't tell you how many games I basically navigated by looking at the bottom of the screen map without once looking at the surroundings. When a simplified version of the landscape is the only way to navigate, I think there is something wrong.
I feel the same way about the “yellow paint” issue as I do the “characters spoil the puzzle before you can solve it” issue. I never asked for environments this detailed - Twilight Princess is still the peak for game visuals as far as I’m concerned - but because they are, the gameplay suffers, and the solution to that problem created an even bigger one.
It's like in writing, it's good to have details but don't bog down your audience with them
I disagree. Puzzles not being given time to solve is one thing. But "yellow paint" is an accessibility feature for a person with debilitating migraines like me, who really would like an easy way to see the path from point A to point B
@@genlando327plays2 In an ideal world you wouldn't need yellow paint to guide you through an environment, because it would be well designed.
Looking at you, God of War 4!
@@votch2798disagree again. In order for that to be the case, everything would have to be essentially linear. While I enjoy a well-crafted linear experience, the ability to create nonlinear experiences (whether in level design or player agency) really is essential to most modern gaming expectations and experiences
Before it made traversal skills irrelevant, warframe did a good job of avoiding yellow paint in a way that mostly doesnt stand out. Spaces where you are intended to wall run to navigate the level frequently have a little bit of wear that highlights them. Its most visible in the oldest tileset, grineer asteroid, but still shows up in some newer tilesets that still rely on a bit of wallrunning, such as the gas city.
I hold the first Mirror's Edge in such high regard on that aspect: when I started the game for the first time, I've been thrown off by the red "runner sense" highlight feature. I immediately turned that stuff off to really immerse myself in the no-UI flow of the game and you know what? It's not even needed! The levels are, aside a couple of exceptions, so clear and well thought out that you don't need explicit UI highlights to play it. There are enough "natural" cues to catch your attention when and where it is needed, so you end up "feeling" the path as you run through it without the "runner sense" crutch.
Of course this isn't an argument to remove the highlight, it's a great accessibility/difficulty feature, but I found it interesting how the level design was so on point that it is optional even on a first playthrough.
There have been times where I had to google the way forward because the path forward was obscured by the way the environment was designed. A ladder hidden in the murky darkness, blocked by clutter and having the exact same color pallet at the background.
It's less that the game is too pretty, but more that the game is too visually busy. Like an IKEA without the arrows or the grey lane you're supposed to follow.
3:00 - Ironically, this is an exit. The entrance that gets you on the other side of that fence is more hidden, and you have to explore the map to get there.
MORE DESIGN DELVE! MORE! (Please, i enjoy under the hood/back end discussions like these very much.)
Good graphics fade with the seasons but good design is timeless
I might be drunk, but your videos are my favorite of Second Wind. All of which are friggin awesome. But you are so cool.
A couple of comments from me:
1) Obviously, well done. Also congrats on having a good team to work with.
2) I've played several games, where the path or objective was so hard to find, cause you just couldn't see a bloody thing through the clutter
3) I've played games, which were almost railroading through level design, making the art design just fade out like it wasn't even there
4) Both are bad.
5) BUT... I have played some games, where the overclutter IS part of the level design. Legends of Kyrandia point'n'click adventure series. Part of the fun was finding what you wanted hidden in the art on screen AND not getting fooled by false things placed among them. Absolutely brilliant. And the interactable objects weren't highlighted in any special way from the background as was the case in some p'n'c games.
Level information density has also been on my mind lately. I have been introducing my girlfriend to gaming and talking her through some things that she may not 'get' in regards to how games are designed and what they expected her to learn, but a very huge thing has just been her strain to parse information in the environment and have the ability to understand 'what can i interact with or what information is communicated to me that i should take note of'. Stray featured heavily in this video and i bet that's for a good reason. I could very quickly understand with years of gaming behind me that the bird spikes on AC units in the environment were places where i couldn't climb... but of course my girlfriend just couldn't tell the difference between them and the usable ones. There was so much /stuff/ in Stray that it made it hard for her to parse what was a blocked off passage that shouldn't be tried to gotten around, and what actually could have. Same for how most windows are closed but you need to go through some of them which are open and barely lit by a single lamp if that. I then backpaddled and have been showing her stylised cartoony games with little clutter density and she's been finding it easier to not be confused by the environment and the cues. She is still amazed by my ability to read an level and understand "yeah, we need to go through there, to get there, and jump up there and i assume drop down there", when all she often sees are jumbles of unremarkable features. It took me explaining highlighted edges as climb spots for her to understand that's what those mean, as she came in with ZERO experience and knowledge of game design shortcuts currently in use that most players will get and understand.. but.. a few will be utterly left behind or clueless.
Also the Bog's challenges in communication reminds me of another in the same vein, Carrion. That game also has to maximally use its levels and sound design to communicate gameplay concepts.
PS: Also, with how modern developers are treating DLSS/FSR/XeSS as crutches to not optimise their games, you even end up in the situation where some things which /were/ used as vital clues to explain interaction, like said bird spikes on AC units, can get lost in the upscaling, or when you go to lower lighting, volumetric or shadow quality.
"We're all human too."
Sir, you just said that to a dog...
Ludo is a gogo dog person.
Wow the bog sounds like a really cool premise and I am really excited to learn more/play it. As someone who gets distracted very easily I find a lot of visual clutter just gets me frustrated. Don’t get me wrong I love a well built world, but it still needs make sense to get around in.
Also I get different teams being in different departments for large companies, but it just makes more sense for the art team and environment team to work together so they can deal with the issues you and Ludo spoke about before they become huge problems.
A problem is level designers have to build a whole game just to build a level because they start from scratch in a modern engine. Unreal engine is made for artists and not level designers sadly, and their is the the problem of fun. Where is the fun? Well the industry needs only art to sell a game in the triple A space.
The ability to tell what's important easily through visual cues is what made me like Team Fortress 2 above games like Call of Duty. TF2 went to great lengths to make sure that you could both easily see your opponents and tell what they capable of at a glance. There's so much stuff in CoD that makes the world feel more real while also making it really hard to tell stuff apart.
Short and sweet, and I like the tying it to a project you are literally contributing to in a relevant manner.
I cannot get enough of these, if I had stuff like this when I was younger I might have considered studying it!
Holy cow your game is beautiful! I can't wait to play it
The new map in The Finals is incredibly simplistic and I realized... Wow it's so much easier to see and comprehend what's going on! 😮
For me, yellow paint is less of a problem because at least it's silent. What actually bothers me is when you're in a room and you know what to do but you want to look around for goodies and your character won't shut up about what you're supposed to be doing, like "I think i can move these things to get across that gap." Which is made worse when the game throws up a floating dialogue box saying "look at this thing and do this."
This extends beyond graphics. Animations do that too. Animations so detailed, and lifelike, that they start to lose meaining in the simple gaming calculus. Thinking about games like Uncharted, where so much is going on there, with so little input during fist fights and traversal, that you cant really imagine whats going to happen you hit a button. I think this is another reason from the laundry list of reasons, why soulsborne games are so successful. Their combat is extremely easy to visualize. Thats why you feel that dread, when you mess up and know that youll be pummeled in 2-3 seconds and can do nothing about it. You can also be relatively confident about the the trajectory of your attacks, because of that.
I guess level design clarity is also why "stark white character in a dark environment" is something I've seen before. The Bog looks great, but I can't help be compare it to Ori and Rain World in my head.
I have JUST experienced this!
On Marvel Midnight Suns, exploring the chapel grounds is a nightmare!
There is so much visual clutter I can't see the roads and I am always lost, even after 40 hours of playtime.
I really enjoyed Midnight Suns, but I felt that. I can't stand fast-travelling and STILL not being able to tell where I am. I open the map to see what direction I'm facing, still can't tell how the map relates to the actual environment, so I move around a bit opening the map again to triangulate where the hell I'm actually going before I finally find the path I'm trying to reach.
@@MrThirtyH Yes! I dreaded doing the side quests just because of that.
Main gameplay is good tho
One design I really appreciate is the pawn system in dragons dogma 2.
Not only can they provide useful hints for quests and pointing out hidden ladders or treasure chests, but they can also act as a guide to the location you want to go to, which keeps your eyes off the mini map so you can appreciate surroundings.
It is kinda annoying when they chime in with a "over here Arisen, I know what to do!" And ruin finding them, but luckily there's a dedicated "shut up and lemme figure it out" button for that.
Also the few missions that did require some more player-sleuthing, Pawns weren't allowed.
I just realized the importance of the dog's name. Took me way too long.
I'm colorblind, so yea, visual clutter, particularly foliage, really screws things over for me. Far Cry or the like are real trouble. So for me, having the clear "OVER HERE DUDE!" indicators is highly appreciated. really liked horizon forbidden west's "scan" thing that showed it to you in a digital UI overlay that was utterly clear but also only there when you activated it. other games have had "yellow paint" that was more subtle, like worn rock or bird droppings on a ledge, which was actually so effective at blending in with the environment, I didn't notice it was a hint.
I love those deep dives so much
Your content is amazing guy
Second-wind indeed
Your point about how AAA dev teams are generally in segregated teams based on their purpose and are in effect put in competition with one another in order to keep their jobs is something I hadn't considered before when trying to affirm my pro-indie game biases. Instead of just "indie game devs have more passion" or "they have a vision that isn't meddled with by publishers," knowing how different the work culture generally is between the two types of games serves as a more concrete reason why larger teams so often fail.
I like how in the Metro games, if you ever feel lost you can look almost anywhere and find some broken street sign literally pointing the direction you are meant to move. Confusion doesn't happen often (with levels usually being mostly linear anyways), and they blend in enough, that they don't take you out of the experience much.
Portal 2 came close to it sometimes in those underground caverns, which were so vast and detailed that it was sometimes hard to figure out where you were supposed to go next.
When I think about this topic the very first game that springs to mind is Borderlands 3.
When it released I bought a copy to play with my partner. We installed the game, sat down on the lounge to play splitscreen, made our way through the opening area . . . and found we couldn't tell the enemies we were meant to be shooting apart from the environment around them. We made it through the early levels, but only by using their health bars to aim.
Though the game had a splitscreen mode, it was impossible to play because the enemies and environment were too detailed and shared too much of the same colour palette. We dropped the game after one session and never came back to it.
"We're all human here." - JM8, talking to a dog
Yellow paint is neither good nor evil to me, it feels like a disgusting wart that's grown on the face on the industry due to other issues. Stemming from mismanagement and time crunch, developers have had to come up with new intelligent ways to guide players through their levels, and instead of getting time to work together on developing intelligently laid out levels with beautiful scenery that doesn't clash with the intended gameplay, level artists have had to resort to working out their own solutions. It is a necessary evil at this moment in time, and I hope we can look back on it as a thing of the past in future titles.
It’s interesting to watch these videos and apply them to other art forms. (I’m a musician.)
It’s really cool to try to find the fundamental problems and apple it to your craft.
This video was a cautionary tale for me that you shouldn’t place form over function.
And I REALLY need to learn that lesson.
I’ve come to love these videos
You're totally right that when there's too many assets in view players can end up feeling lost, but on the other side of the coin, clutter can also be used extremely effectively to hide and obfuscate secrets and items in games such as Elden ring or even the recent Dragons Dogma 2. It's so easy to miss an item, cave or tomb entrance due to visual clutter and it becomes - atleast to some extent - more rewarding when you find the more cleverly hidden ones.
It's a tough balancing act and it doesn't work in every genre of gaming either. Great topic for discussion though, thanks!
Two examples that immediately came to mind during this were Assassin's Creed pre-Origins, and Horizon: Zero Dawn. Because AC I feel, actually managed to navigate it's visual clutter really well. Handholds and ledges were really obvious, but still worked with the world, and so climbing and parkour always felt really smooth and natural, and you got used to hunting for that out-of-place brick, or the crack in the cliff, or the piece of scaffolding. Horizon, however, had bright yellow handholds for EVERYTHING, and so I always felt both patronised and walled-in when climbing.
As someone with absolutely horrible depth perception when playing video games, I really struggle sometimes reading what is essentially a 2D image of a 3D space. Good level design is so important for me. I can't tell you how many games I've rage quit because the opening levels aren't designed in a way that teaches me how to read them. And how grateful I can feel for a simple indicator of "Oi, over here, you can climb this wall!"
Let me start by saying I love your videos. They give a behind the scene look at things gamer take for granted. With that out of the way I think with The Bog the way you explain it really sounds like "This triple axle is really hard to do, especially blindfolded with an arm tied behind your back." So yes it's hard but along the way you decided to flex too. Communication as you've said must have been really important for clarity and is more possible in smaller indie studios where office politics doesn't get in the way.
Beauty and realism aren't the same thing. Furthermore, realism doesn't necessitate the absurd clutter we often see in newer (Especially post-apocalyptic) games. Sometimes areas are just clean guys!
A problem I face is modern game engines are more designed around artists.
What I truly dislike about the yellow paint is that it seems so obvious, an obvious "We don't trust you to look here, so we made it obvious", which always feels so disheartening to see because its basically the game telling me, the player, that it has no trust in me finding the right path to take.
Obviously, not everyone will get it, but I think good leveldesign can naturally guide the players flow and gameplay to choosing the most logical path forward without having to point it out.
Same with the barrels in Resident Evil 4. Even without a glow to the containers like in the original, simply establishing a set model for containers and keeping that one consistent would have been enough. Everything is clutter, but a round barrel is container? Got it, look for barell of the same size every time.
Or simply having the buttonprompt to interact with it appear when you get close would have been just enough.
I feel like there's something to be said for a game that's so realistic it counterintuitively ruins verisimilitude. A core aspect of immersion is forgetting that you're playing a game, and you can't do that if your gameplay amounts to roleplaying a hopelessly lost man who treats the world like a giant museum whose exhibits are all hidden around whichever corner he's not fully explored yet. Having less visual detail (while still having a "realistic style") can result in more "as if you were there in real life" type gameplay, because the player isn't consistantly looking around trying to take all the small details in. And more immersed play results in a less critical look at the graphics.
Lol - I did not expect that diagnosis from Ludo 🤣
Yellow Paint is nowhere near as annoying as "NPC telling you how to solve a puzzle cause you fumbled with it several times" (looking at YOU GoW Ragnarok) or "NPC telling you to hurry up in the background while your trying to take in the world around you" (looking at YOU Dead Space Remake)
Npcs can really make me mad af specially when they don’t shut the flip up about a puzzle or me taking a side path for loot
I always envisioned an entity which takes the form of an old hooded hermit that transcends video games and walks with a buck of yellow paint around slapping it on all of the location needed to get the player where they need to go. I don't know why I think of this but it seemed to have made sense to me in a strange logic of sorts lol.
I wouldn't say this is a new problem. I remember when Gears of War (2006) come out and them talking about building the entire level/game in Maya then importing to Unreal, which was a shift from building in engine with an editor and using BSP (Binary Space Partitions) to box the level out, then texture the walls and place static models in the environment. Games were becoming more art focused and less level design focused even at that point in the 360/PS3 era. I remember having talks with other level designers at the time about we are less and less of a focus. Design has always been tricky like that. Good design can be almost invisible, but good developers will always know just how damn important it is.
This dog is making an unsafe work environment
Ludo's not a doctor. She's a dog-tor.
My brother is very good at playing games and we both struggled to complete the tutorial in Avatar because we couldn't identify what we should be interacting with in the overforested open world. So there's definitely a sense that the visual design is getting in the way.
Additionally, I want to know if anyone is with me on this, but I feel less motivation to explore things when I feel like it isn't being deliberately placed by a level designer. Even though the worlds are beautiful, I feel like I don't want to explore them because the generative nature of them feels like exploring them is just busy work. Anyone with me on this?
And on top of all that: the extra textures, objects, and atmosphere takes up extra space which I am rapidly running out of 😭😭
Good example is left for dead 1. The original Turtle Rock Studios maps were FULL of environmental storytelling and debris, decals, etc.
Valve basically had to remove a lot of it so players could have a clear path through the level and be directed. Hell they even have that red spray paint that says "SAFE HOUSE ->"
I'm playing Scorn right now and I'm constantly having to Google to find which meaty knob in the wall I missed that was crucial to progression.
Games that have incredible, realistic, and cluttered visuals also attract gamers looking to explore organically. Games have to satisfy those players either by making being lost fun, or by creating the illusion that the players are forging their own path. People say they hate yellow paint because it's "lazy" or "breaks immersion", but I suspect the reason is they want to feel lost and have fun doing it. That's insanely difficult for sure, but yellow paint as a solution to that is like telling someone with bed sores to try taking a nap. Yellow paint directly prevents them from being lost and is not fun outside of sending players to the fun. It makes beautiful levels feel like just a bridge between fun sections. Not every player wants to get lost in worlds and many want to complete quests and progress story beats quickly. AAA games are finding it increasingly difficult to make games that cater to everybody and yellow paint is just the cleanest example of this.
I’m one of those who prefers clutter, exploring, and feeling lost in an overly detailed environment, even if the interactions amount to nothing more than scrabbling up a junk pile and enjoying the scenery, or knocking a bottle off a table with my little cat paw. But if it’s going to be that sort of environment (which isn’t for everyone), then it does need a different language for how players are given hints toward finding something interesting-like an odd-looking tree or distant cliff formation or what have you. And it does need more little rewards (visual, interactivity) for being lost in the clutter. I can’t even imagine something like a RDR2 having giant “look over here” searchlights all over it like an AC Valhalla.
I agree, but I think you’re only halfway there. The issue isn’t “one wants to wander, and the other wants to be pointed to the objective, how do you reconcile?” You could easily have less obtrusive markers than yellow paint, basically just having a waypoint like the traditional floating arrow or the thematically appropriate wind from Ghost of Tsushima.
The real issue is that they’re mostly linear games being sold as if they’re open when they’re not. Which is why you have characters with limited mobility, than can only do [traversal action] at specific points on a specific path, rather than during all contexts. And this applies to whether one type of object is interactable too. More contrast between the two so it’s more obvious and there’s less confusion. But if you’re really set on a linear game with more room to “explore”, then make “paths” wider. Example, if you’re climbing straight up a cliff, don’t have grabbable rocks where the path is as narrow as the player character’s body. It makes it feel claustrophobic your hand is being forced. Instead, have that path 5x wider. Nothing changes fundamentally, you’re still climbing up that one side, in that one direction. But now it doesn’t feel like you’re funnelled through a tunnel (even when you’re outside). Ideally, you’d be able to scale said cliff from any side, but it depends on what you’re trying to make.
I think yellow point has a purpose, but it's limited to tutorials where the player is expected to learn the indication of climbing, vaulting, or crawling. But the. Take them away afterwards.
"We are all human, after all" he tells the dog.
A few years ago, i played Breath of the Wild, Gothic 2 and Witcher 3 pretty much back to back.
And what you are saying here perfectly summarizes my experience with these three games.
The Gothic games are ooooold, but have a stylized artstyle that's easy to read and still is able to create an immersive atmosphere.
I never was confused what i could or couldn't pick up or interact with. And i could easily recognize different areas in the game world.
Breath of the Wild is of course far more modern but still has a very stylized artstyle that also makes it easy to read your surroundings and recognize what what you can interact with or pick up.
Also, the map design is so insanely good that i can watch over my wife's shoulder while she plays, see a monster camp in a forest and still tell exactly where she is, because every area is *that* uniquely handcrafted.
Witcher 3 was incredibly hard to read. I constantly needed the witcher senses to be able to find out where i am supposed to go, what i can and should interact with and what is just decorative clutter.
Not to mention that navigating the forests and swamps of Velen without your minimap is hopeless.
Witcher 3 is still a phantastic game for other reasons, but the readability of the graphics was abysmal for me.
I think it was in a Valve game (probably HL2 or Portal), they mentioned how they used lighting to draw the players attention and help them navigate. So, either this has become less possible because of all the stuff/tech the devs are trying to find space for, the publisher is trying to make the game more appealing to "everyone", or they're having to accommodate for gamers like DSP >_>
you all are inspiring the industry that inspires you. That is a legacy ANYONE should be extremely proud of.
As always, great video JM8! (and that ending bit with Ludo being a sweary girl, lol) Was happy to hear more on your experiences with working on The Bog, I'm unbelievably hyped for that game. Hopefully a day one purchase for me. Really reminds me of the underwater horror game that I wanted Silt to be, but better!
I'm reminded of when Yahtzee covered that one future-y magenta game a month or two ago and talked about how things can be overdesigned to the point of meaninglessness. Sometimes more budget to give "more detail" to the assets isn't a good idea.
I encounter this kind of problem when I played HZD: Forbidden West. The environments were so lush and realistic that, without the Focus highlights, I would not be able to fine the interact points in the areas.
“Muddies the water” I see what you did there
As always, tightly integrated teams prdouce the best work, whether it be game design, car design, or building design.
Yellow paint is much better than "how the hell was I supposed to figure that out."
7:01
Ludo: "Woof woof!" (Excuse me, I'm standing right here!)
Oh, for sure, more cluttered environments have been detrimental to my play, mostly when I get lost looking for secrets. Sometimes I wish the way forward were *more* obvious just so I can avoid that direction to explore everything.
I actually ran into this problem with Mario Kart 8. Everything is so shiny and busy that it actually becomes hard for me to find the road. Every signpost needs extra detail to look extra believable, but it ends up making the shape less distinct. Now that I think about it, road signs IRL look as flat as possible so you can actually read them. On the upside, I think I understand what the word "hyperrealistic" means now.
The concept art for the bog remind of rain world in all the best ways (besides just the main character) I adore ui minimalist atmospheric games like it and hollow knight and I hope to hear when and where I can wishlist and follow the game!
I have noticed a lot more yellow paint these days. Granted, I don't play a ton of AAA, but the ones I do, sometimes it is literal yellow paint, sometimes it is a giant tarp draped over a stack of boxes that don't make diegetic sense when you think about why they would be there. I am far more drawn to games with unique stylistic looks, or games that don't mind you getting a little lost. Elden Ring does some great navigation work with just a well placed torch here or there, or maybe a glowing flower that could just as well scream "ambush" as "the way you should go".
This reminds me of a video that criticized the last Thief game to come out because the game was too linear and it needed a UI to help you navigate, but trying to explore it without the UI just made you lost.
It's easy to forget that sometimes developers feel compelled to add things to make levels easier to navigate because obviously they want the player to win, but it backfires and makes the actual traversal of the level less engaging.
This has quickly become my favorite show on Second Wind. ♥
It boggles my mind that big studios still haven't figured out how to keep design consistent and communicate across large organizations. This is stuff software developers figured out decades ago. This is just more evidence that the industry itself, at least at the AAA scale, is not run very well.
I think it's the bloat of tripple A. Game devs used to have a small core dev team that all trust eachother. Past 100 people in house politics rise and divides trust.
You trying to explain the difference between level designer and artist reminds me of my professor trying to explain the difference between an intior decorator and an intior designer.
Doom Eternal's climbable walls are so hard to spot in all the clutter. Some of it is the environmental artist's fault as they sometimes swap texture and blend too well into the environment. I have sometimes got stuck and had to look up online to figure out where to go next, only to realise there is a climbable wall in plain sight.
On the flip side Doom 2016 does yellow paint all over the place with its Green Lights saying "climb here!"
@@DasGanon true, but I prefer that over not knowing where to go. All the paint and green lights also helped keeping the pace consistent. It would of course be better with something else to lead the player
@@SimpleSaemple Can't say I relate as I've never had trouble distinguishing climbable surfaces in DE. I mean, it's always either a section of a wall that has had its upper layer removed in a conveniently rectangular(-ish) shape with small grooves littering the surface, or a perfectly rectangular metal covering with similar grooves (and red-colored hazards at times).
@@DasGanon Yes but that's just good design. Leading a player is not a bad thing, doing it in a way that does not fit the environment is when it becomes a problem.
I've never heard of chiaroscuro being used as an "english" term anywhere else outside of vocal pedagogy, so it was cool to see that the concept can be applied in other ways.
I love these vids. Listening to you, Yatz and Tim Cain really make me wanna give game development a shot. But as a full time worker and parent of two small kids, I don't see myself picking up a "hobby" with such a steep learning curve right now.
Still, you are super inspiring and informative to listen to.
I like the satisfaction of finding things myself rather than being guided with yellow paint however, you mentioned escort mission. If you can manage make it feel neither utterly pointless or frustratingly difficult, that would be an achievement for the books.
I've always appreciated a "less is more" approach when it comes to a game's art style. Not that I want a game to spell it out for me, but more in a way of showing just enough to get your gameplay across. FEZ's level design is just cubic sections, but it's constructed in a way that's both pleasing to the eye and easy to read.
Personally, I do a lot of the detailing on the environments in the game I’m working on as a level designer. I use a lot of modular pieces. I can arrange the placeholder pieces so that the visuals work with sight lines, framing, leading lines, etc… then the artists come in to swap out all the placeholders with the final game art.
Our game also uses a fixed camera which helps guide the player and give them information without needing for constant UI or yellow fabric.
And because there is only one view point, environments can be composed with more intention, making sure things don’t get in the way or block your view.
2D games also have a similar advantage with the camera perspective.
Although, our game is going for a more stylized look, so that definitely helps to keep things cleaner.
Starting out as an LD is painful in Unreal due having to build everything from scratch.
The first time I noticed this issue was when I played Silent Hill: Downpour. Every Silent Game takes place in similar environments, but man, it is so much harder to find items in Downpour than it is in the PS1 and PS2 games. In those, items just naturally stand out in the environment, but in Downpour there's so much junk - as in, literal, actual garbage - in the streets that every item just blends in with the background. Downpour doesn't use any UI elements to highlight them, so you basically have to rely on luck to find anything.
Your crying in the thumbnail JM8 reminds me of when I first saw Journey and Flower on PS4, because *HOLY CRAP! THOSE GAMES ARE GORGEOUS AND BEAUTIFUL! AND MADE ME BREAK DOWN IN HAPPY TEARS BECAUSE I WAS JUST SO HAPPY!!!!!* 😭💖
i go with clutter rules. Dead ends and alternative routes can have more clutter and fewer lights, while the desired path has little touches. Showing its been walked through and more lights
Funny that you used Scorn as a supplemental example here, because I felt that Scorn's level design and art direction worked together extremely well to create the alien atmosphere of the game world. That might be due to the art definitely getting top billing, forcing the level designers to build from the world design instead of the other way around like in your game, but regardless I found the puzzle mechanics were well served by this choice. It became a game of discovering what weird mechanics existed and piecing together your interaction, where the "what do I do now" was in service to the game instead of detracting from it.
I’d also say that this amount of “visual clutter” actively makes some games more difficult to run if you don’t have a strong enough GPU. Unless I’ve just cleaned my laptop’s insides, it struggles to run games like Helldivers 2 at 60 fps (or sometimes even 30), and I largely suspect that it’s due to the sheer amount of particle effects. Oh, and even when in top shape, I still have to use minimal graphics settings. This isn’t the only game where I have this issue, but it is the most recent.