GUE is only about making MONEY and selling HALCYON equipment!!!
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 5 авг 2024
- #divegue #richkid #doktorben #halcyondivesystems
I got a very long comment from a user called African Twin basically stating that GUE is only about money, instructors are only interested in big business and selling 1000+$ dive computers and promoting Halcyon as a brand. The comment was so long that I promised him to react to it in another video and find out if GUE is only about money or not. And this is it! Enjoy!
So what's your impression after watching the video? Is GUE's Mission only to pull big money from divers' pockets and sell expensive Shearwater Perdix dive computers? Or is there an inherent problem with the industry when it comes to money? Should being a scuba diving instructor be considered a job to sustain or is it rather a hobby? Can you get rich by being an instructor? Please let's discuss this in the comments!
+++ LINKS +++ (Affiliate Linke are marked with *)
Here you can find the original comment:
• I'm back (!) with GUE ...
+++ COURSE AND BUSINESS INQURIES +++
I'm happy to teach a course in your area! Please contact me via:
ben@gue.com
Visit my website:
benjaminott.de
I regularly destroy dive equipment and tell you what the weak parts are. So if you are a manufacturer and want to get honest feedback on your equipment, please let me know!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you want to send me something:
Dr. Benjamin Ott
Freiheitstraße 49
52531 Übach-Palenberg/Germany
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++ TABLE OF CONTENTS +++
00:00 Intro
01:18 GUE Instructor refuses to teach cheaply
02:35 Can it be a bit cheaper?
04:21 Revenue Streams for (GUE) Instructors
07:08 Is GUE really so expensive?
10:54 Do you need expensive dive equipment?
11:56 Diving is not affordable anymore
12:48 Problems of the dive industry
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++ COURSE AND BUSINESS INQURIES +++
I'm happy to teach a course in your area! Please contact me via:
ben@gue.com
Visit my website:
benjaminott.de
I regularly destroy dive equipment and tell you what the weak parts are. So if you are a manufacturer and want to get honest feedback on your equipment, please let me know!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
If you want to send me something:
Dr. Benjamin Ott
Freiheitstraße 49
52531 Übach-Palenberg/Germany
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++ TABLE OF CONTENTS +++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
Хобби
![Jordan Adetunji - KEHLANI REMIX (feat. Kehlani) [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EeJ8n5PxFGE/mqdefault.jpg)
So what do you think? Is it legit to make a living from being a scuba instructor or not? How much should a day of scuba training cost realistically?
Scuba instructors are not driving instructors. There's no demand.
My 2 psi as newbie and recently trained GUE Diver (GUE-F/Rec):
1) The "problem" with GUE is that the cost of getting trained and getting gear for a GUE-F class seems high before taking the class, but after you finish, in retrospect it is EXTREMELY LOW for what you are getting. I spent 800$ for the class and having less than 40 dives in total, I learned how to hover in less than 2 dives, S-drill and V-drill in less than 4, and V-drill followed by an unplanned S-drill and control ascent from 30' with stops while shooting also a DSMB in parallel, in less than 8 dives. 1 month later I did my AOW with another 3 letter "techie" agency which was 400$ and I learned nothing having an instructor that he could not hover without grabing stuff at the bottom during the peak buoyancy class, and lost a student (that I rescued myself) during an 100' dive in a lake dive with 3' viz, being the ONLY ONE with a dive light and compass. Whoever wants can plug the numbers and see in which situation your money is actually bringing more value.
2) I was furtunate enough to get my GUE-F class at High Springs, from an awesome instructor who is a Sales Manager at Halcyon, and the theory lectures were taking place in Halcyon's conference room. So, more or less, it would be understandable by everyone if he was trying to push the Halcyon brand during the class. At NO POINT he even attempted to recommend Halcyon gear. He just made sure to explain the details we need to keep an eye-on for GUE compliant gear, and that was that.
Halcyon unlike other manufacturers, do not need any push from instructors to newbie divers that don't know any better, when they produce gear of superb quality that last for years, with an even more superb costumer service, while treating their employees with respect. I am confident that if another manufacturer would started producing gear of objectively higher quality/comfort/etc the entire GUE community would start using these gear. This looks pretty difficult though, when Halcyon has the constant input in their R&D from some of the best divers in the world...
Very well said…there’s nothing to add 🙂
I just finished Fundamentals 1 after coming to GUE as an AOW diver from other agencies. I wanted to take the class with my daughter after she mentioned interest in cave diving and I sought out the best instruction i could get her for undertaking the overhead environment. At first I was taken aback by the expense which was not only the instruction, but desire to dial in the equipment. Now that the class is over, my lingering thoughts are not on the cost of the equipment, which is fit for me, makes my diving more comfortable and will last several years, but rather imagining what kind of diver I could have become by now had I started with this level of instruction from the beginning. I am proud that I got my daughter started out with GUE.
Oh yeah so true! I wish I had started with GUE much earlier on my life
rarely seen such a good video with this great content. I'm not a mega fan of YT video channel and videos but this speaks out my soul. You took your time and create a very detailed commented summary. This isn't common in today's time of social media, but also a basic philosophy of our GUE Training - honest constructive feedback. THANK YOU Ben!
Well…it is what it is 🙂. Think honest feedback is important. I see a tendency, not only in diving, that no one can be honestly criticized. Everything has to be velvety and softly and everyone is literally superb. But that isn’t helpful. If everybody is Superman, nobody is Superman 🙂
Good video, prices are spot on for the quality and quantity of training received. Speaking of gear, my Heser lights arrived today. They look great and can't wait to use them. Thanks for turning me on to a solid company!
No problem! I’m happy to help! 🙂
I completely agree with you!GUE is one of very few training agencies (if not the only one) that provides real education and high standards. I'm PADI Divemaster and IANTD tec diver and to be honest since my first course i had a feeling that something is missing. That's the reason i want to take GUE Fundamentals class and continue to Tec 1 . I'm not very optimistic about that unfortunately...In my country we don't have GUE instructors and on top of that traveling nowadays is hard for everyone.Take care!
Yeah that’s how I ended up in GUE! I was instructor for a number of agencies before. Where are you coming from (think I asked you before but can’t remember).
@@DoktorBEN Hi Ben! I'm from Bulgaria . Unfortunately we don't have GUE instructors here and probably never will...
Well…I can teach in Bulgaria, too! Drop me a mail (ben@gue.com) and we can arrange something.
Great response. I learned more in my 5 days with Beto doing Fundies than in all the other courses combined. And it encourages me to be better not get a cert.
Yeah it’s usually like that. I never cried after a single cent I spent on GUE training.
Exactly correct and very well put Ben :thumbsup.
I started diving with Padi ow/aow/nitrox, then migrated to SSI for what I felt were wise choice 'specialty' training like nav/deep/wreck/rescue, and I still felt like an imposter or an accident just waiting to happen. At times I've been buddied with extremely poor water skilled people, one nearly drowned during mask flood exercise in only 5Mt of water - but EVERBODY always passes no matter how wrong or dangerous they perform the skills.
Then I took 1 x Fundy course and learned to dive and survive properly IMHO and I plan on going forward in this way from now on. Perhaps not always GUE which are limited offerings in AU, but definitely the DIR (Hogarthian) philosophy WRT how to keep yourself and/or team safe - while enjoying diving.
Yeah can imagine! Good that you found us! For me it was a revelation!
@@DoktorBEN We just need this format in more towns & cities here :)
Yeah that’s true. GUE instructors are unevenly distributed unfortunately
Excellent response, you should really charge him for the seminar! Clever enough to know and want ‘DIR’ training at the big business race to the bottom price point.
🙂🙂 well yeah…The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten 🙂
Bravo. The unfortunate propensity for many people today focusing on money instead of VALUE. This is what occurs when people prefer an abstraction in its essence, vs gaining of something that is truly transformative of time, effort and experiences into knowledge. There is no Free Lunch. Natural Law is real and despite humans attempts to ignore this, invariably comes back to haunt when they do. GUE takes its training to the same level of necessitative "PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITLY" that pilot training engenders. Only those who see the bigger picture will appreciate and value what GUE brings to the table. You would never take pilot training so flippantly. The difference is you do not get to pilot an airplane unless you have proven your capacity to do so. Great job and well beyond what you should need to do to explain this. Cheers.
Thank you! Yeah the price vs. value discussion is a thing nowadays, not only in diving. Just look at super-fast-fashion brands where fashion trends change so quickly and clothing is so cheap, made possible by the exploitation of workers and environment that people often don't even wear pieces one before dumping them. The pace is fast, the price low and the value does simply not exist...
Dr Ben, Very well explained. People easily jump to conclusions. I agree that a lot of problems in the dive industry stem from price dumping and ultimately sacrificing quality.
I experienced it in the beginning of my dive training “when I didn’t know, what I didn’t know”. But “you get what you pay for”was the lesson taken away, literally the whole price range within the dive industry enables you to pick and chose, so there is no lack of options.
Just pick one that fits you.
And living is expensive, everybody should be able to see that looking at their own life.
It’s good to give instructors the opportunity to be compensated reasonably, so they don’t have to sell out.
But we as the divers have to decide: quality or quantity!
Every decision affects the market overall.
There are more than one way to become a better diver.
I don’t think it’s fair to make blanket statements about GUE’s prices without looking at the whole picture.
Absolutely! Thanks for your comment!
I am a GUE trained diver, and continue to pursue GUE diving courses due to the standards and quality control that the agency takes seriously, in addition to it being non-profit. That said, I do not give a rat's arse (excuse me french) about buying Halcyon equipment. My gear is from Xdeep, Mares, Apeks, Beuchat, and Fourth Element. The only things I have from Halcyon is the wetnotes, the hose retainer, and one Santi suit (Halcyon has shares in Santi). It is unfortunate that SOMETIMES I find myself reminding GUE centers that there is no mention of "Halcyon" in appendix A/B for standard equipment. Don't get me wrong, Halcyon equipment is of very high quality and durability, but so are other brands.
Absolutely! It’s a misconception that you have to have H-branded equipment. I dive many other brands, although I like what halcyon makes.
I do have to say, when I push back, GUE instructors/divers will stop insisting on Halcyon and will advise on how to adjust other equipments to abide by the standards. On the other hand... I do not compromise on GUE being my standard training. The only cards that I am proud to show when asked for certifications is GUE, it was bloody hard work to get those.
Love your comment about the value of the GUE fundies class and how it can relate to a PADI’s bundling … with OWD, AOWD, Nitrox and Drysuit… you can add the Peak Buoyancy and DSMB classes also.
There’s seriously a dsmb class in PADI? That’s so basic knowledge (like buoyancy….) that’s hard to imagine people don’t find it quite odd to have to buy a class for that. It’s like having a breaking license as upgrade after your drivers license….
@@DoktorBEN yea… that was basically my reaction also… keep putting the content… it’s great
Thanks! Will do!
Many years ago, I dove at Puerto Galera in the Philippines and a Danish divemaster was assigned to assess and be my guide. After the dive, we spoke for quite a bit, him telling me that he liked diving so much that he sold everything he has and moved to the Philippines to dive full time. Now that he's doing that, he feels that what he makes from diving is not enough to pay the bills, and is looking for a full-time work to cover for his expenses.
Well yeah…that’s a very common story I think. I think most instructors can’t live from diving, not even in the Philippines.
As a sales person for high end equipment design software, I understand value and you get what you pay for concept very well. Somehow, when it applies to me, I hesitate and pull back, It is only when I am very determined that I'll close both eyes and spend one time big time, and I do understand the value for money after doing fundamentals. But having said that, my course to fundamentals is charted, timing is to be determined yet.
Unfortunately there are only few people who understand that concept! Have fun doing the class!
Buy once, cry once !
I am a Put Another Dollar In trained (sort of) with a little over 200 dives and just before the covid pandemic, I looked up a GUE instructor to teach me how to use doubles. The price was $500 AUD and I thought that was cheap given the quality of the instruction received and the quality of the instructor (he was a cave diving instructor with over 2000 cave dives) I really do wish I had trained with GUE in the first place. I feel I would have gotten a lot further a lot quicker with my diving than I have.
Luv ya work Dr BEN
Thank you very. Yes that’s exactly what I think about my personal diving career 😄. Did you already do Fundies?
Yeah it’s the same for almost everyone
Hi do you mind sharing the name of the instructor? I’m looking for a gue instructor too thanks
Hi @ozjohnno where about in Australia? Because I live in Sydney and I’d love to start with the same instructor as yours 👌
@@SkarenOrtizAguilera I am in Melbourne
I'm SSI instructor and TDI tec diver, I cant sell OWD course below 590 euro. If you will pay also for AWOD you will pay + 380 euro, and you will end up to the same price with the GUE Fundamentals......if you are a good instructor and you spend you time for the best training experience for your client, you can't sell your course with a lower price.
I think you speak about quality philosophy that's normal to have in the diving industry, not only in GUE. Otherwise we will produce "victims" of the "low cost philosophy", as we can see in Red Sea and in other crowded dive sites.
I wish everyone would think like that.
I am not a GUE diver, but agree people look for cheaper price make the industry hard for good instructor to keep teaching. If u want training pay what they ask for or look for another one.
I got OW certified in 91 and I have over a thousand dives with no other certifications. For me it seems that everyone in the dive industry especially training has their hands out for more money. They use every excuse to justify outrageous prices for training. Of course I'd love to take a gue fundies class but for nearly a thousand dollars it's simply out of what I can afford. I've dove with so many people throughout the years that were DMs, Instructors or others that are loaded with cert cards and I would put my skills either right next to theirs or in most cases beyond. It sucks for people like me who have a huge passion for diving and simply can't afford to take quality classes. I either need to settle for sub-standard training at a lower cost or not do any continuing ed at all. For me I have gained experience and skill through putting in the hours, years and dedication into actually diving. Don't get me wrong if I had disposable income, as it seems most in the diving community have, I'd have my tech and cave cert already.
Well…yeah quality training costs quality money. But serious diving is expensive, too. So most of the times there is a solution anyway
Hi Doktor Ben, on your first point, for divers who are preparing for fundamentals class and needs someone to supervise them or correct their mistakes to help them do better during the class proper. After all, in your earlier videos, practicing before taking the class is encouraged. My question is, will the professional fee for practice training and the fundamentals class differ a lot?
I don’t really recommend training before the class, but taking it as early as possible and training afterwards. And no, it does not differ usually.
I do not agree with you. Rec1 is more about skills, but it’s not equivalent as ow, aow, nitrox and drysuit.
You can do rec 1 in wetsuit, then you still don’t have experience in a drysuit.
Max depth is 21 meter for rec 1, max depth for aow is 30 meter. Your rec 1card is just telling max depth 21 meter. Touroperators may not let you dive deeper then 21 meter.
Are you allowed to dive nitrox 36 with rec 1 or only nitrox 32 ? My ssi card even allows me to dive nitrox 40.
When I did aow I was doing a dive with a lot of current, night dive, deep dive (and 2 other dives). Those dives conditions were more challenging then the conditions when I did fundamentals.
Experience dives in challenging conditions are also very important. (You and) a lot of divers seems to forget that sometimes.
Skills don’t replace experience and experience don’t replace skills.
(I do agree with the rest of the video :-).)
Well....you're right that the dry suit is not mandatory and if you don't do it in a dry suit, you're not dry suit certified. However, if you do it, then you are trained in a dry suit. When it comes to the depth, it depends vitally on the agency..
With CMAS** (teamed up with another ** diver) you can even dive to 40m. GUE is very safety-oriented. That's why we start using helium from 30m on and why we limit the depth. But there's no diving police - only very few countries in the world regulate diving by law. So you can go even 100m without certification if you like...
When it comes to the Nitrox cert - there's one reason you are only allowed 32%: GUE uses standardized gases and we only have 32% for many different reasons. Still - no diving police in most countries and at any time one can get 100% if he likes. Doesn't make sense, but is possible.
In the Rec1 class you have to do a dive under adverse circumstances, work with basic navigation, too. So all the above said, I'd say that the Rec1 is comparable to AOWD. And if you put a Rec1 diver with against a PADI/SSI/... AOWD diver, you'll most likely see what I mean
The problem with most agencies is that
@@DoktorBEN When you visit another country somewhere in the world and you want to dive the will ask for a card. When you want to do a rec dive to a wreck or reef at 30 meter you might have a problem when rec 1 says max 21 meter of depth.
You’re right that there is no scuba police. But if the captain of the boat doesn’t accept your card you can’t do the dive. I even think he is right. You can sent gue an email to ask for help. I think that they will say you should do rec 2…
I had the same with cave 2 and ccr1. A gue instructor is telling it’s enough for overhead diving with a ccr. But if the owner of the mine requires a ccr cave card, gue will not help you. Even if there are no gue ccr cave instructors in Europa. You simply can’t dive if the person who’s responsible for the mine, boat or whatever won’t let you dive because your card doesn’t met the requirements.
I was thinking the same as you in the past. I thought skills were very important and my focus was to much on skills. When I did ccr, it was like fundamentals on a rebreather. After doing 25 dives by yourself , you’re allowed to do tech dives. Then the problems are starting for some of the gue ccr divers. Even gue tech 2 divers think that they don’t need a decogas for a dive deeper then 40 meter with 10 minutes of deco. I was the only diver in a team of 3 with a decogas. Another gue ccr 1 divers were asking me at the surface how he should set their perdix in cc mode, after the dive his perdix was in error. Because they did switch their petrel 2 controller to setpoint 1.2 but didn’t switch their perdix to setpoint 1.2 and keep their perdix of setpoint 0.7 during the dive.
They did these kind of stupid things because they never did learn to do the tech dives with a rebreather. Other agency’s require mod 1 (5days) and mod 2 (5 days) instead of gue ccr (6 days).
(I think it’s not fair to say that gue ccr 1 is better then other agencies rebreather training.) I also think you comparison with rec 1 & ow, aow, drysuit and nitrox is wrong.
With that logic you should always opt for the agency that grants you the highest depth rating on the card. So CMAS might be the best option. You’re allowed to do deco and even cave diving in France just with CMAS**. In the end it’s always up to the (boat) owners. I even knew a dive center which totally denied diving for PADI divers…can happen with any certification card they could even deny you for wearing glasses or being male if they like.
When it comes to the GUE CCR divers: I don’t know the people and the dive. I just know we’ve had a very long discussion about that among instructors some years ago sand the result was to split the GUE CCR course up into CCR1 and CCR2 to address the problem.
@@DoktorBEN no, you shouldn’t always go for the agency with the highest depth rating.
You should choose an agency which make sense for you. And you should do the training for the dive you want to do which is required by the agency.
If you want to do a rec dive to a 30 meter wreck you should do rec 1 and rec 2 with gue. You can even use 30/30 with gue and rec 2. Your skills are probably very good compared to other agencies. Breathing 30/30 make a dive more safe.
But is it worth the money for a rec dive to a 30 meter wreck to do rec 1 and rec 2 and use expensive 30/30 ?
Most people at least 999 out of 1000 wouldn’t think it’s worth is because they don’t want to spent so much money and time. They can also do the dive wit ow+ aow (+ nitrox). They think that it’s safe enough.
If you want to get certified for a 30 meter dive it cost much more money with gue than other agencies. I agree with you that you get much better training and I also think that if you compare what you did learn for the money is much better at gue.
But most divers don’t want to spent so much time and money and just want to do dives and have fun. I think it’s better for them to choose ssi or padi.
Well yeah, there’s for everything a cheaper option and it’s fine to with that option anytime!
Simple PADI OWD here and I wish to adopt the GUE religion next spring. The entry price is high. I am spending way more dollars than I would have expected . But I am coming to the conclusion that it is worth it if I want to dive safely and seriously. For the few dives I did, I felt uneasy to observe so many broken rules, vague explanations and bad equipment. Diving is that kind of activity that does not forgive sloppiness. I also don't feel comfortable just doing it occasionaly like I would do for a ski trip every year. My conclusion is that I have to fully commit to it, at least for the first years.
Yes many people experience exactly that
GUE doesn’t accept anything and anyone from other agencies. It’s disturbing to say the least
Well…it’s part of the quality control. In fact…the standards allow waivers to accept other agencies‘ certifications.
@@DoktorBEN fair enough. So all other agencies don’t have quality control?
You know the story of the hammer that though that everything is a nail?
Well…other agencies quality control is beyond GUE‘s influence. Moreover, it’s a very specific system that relies heavily on standardization especially when it comes to team work. That’s why there is a Fundamentals class for everyone.
Plus the quality other agencies control might be to a lower standard. So GUE does not take the time to check for everyone else’s standards.
@@DoktorBEN Thanks! your video for the difficulty of instructors teaching full time is spot on!
I live in North Florida, in the county in fact, where Halcyon, GUE, and the only GUE based dive shop are located. Yes, they do sell Halcyon at that dive shop, but they also carry a lot of other manufacturers!
Guess there are more than one GUE based dive shops, however, yeah that’s the point! 🙂
@@DoktorBEN Sorry, yes, meant to say brick and mortar shop in the area ;)
What dive shop in North Florida is GUE?
@@akant74 Extreme Exposure in High Springs
I have MaresXR Hollis and Subgravity BPWs. Nobody has told me I can't use them in a class. :)
Also shops don't have students? My LDS is doing gangbusters courses. They're booked out a couple months worth right now!
No, because you can use them. Nobody cares for the brand 🙂.
Well yeah, I know thriving shops and shops with difficulties. I think it was always like that.
I know I'm late to this, and perhaps I missed it in the video, but I really didn't hear you elaborate on what really appears to be he relationship between GUE and Halcyon, as most can agree its rather obvious GUE favors Halcyon equipment.
Nah…it’s believed and sure, many GUE instructors favor Halcyon. Yet, GUE as an organization does not although there are ties - GUEs President is one of the owners of Halcyon. Still he does not really take advantage of his position in GUE in favor of his company
@@DoktorBEN Yes, but you can see how it, in a round-a-bout way, is a rather peculiar situation.
The creator of Halcyon was also one of the founding members and main push divers of the WKPP and GUE. Often creating/inventing kit for purpose, the purpose that GUE grew out of and expanded from.
Not hard to see why there would be somewhat of a link there.
(Disclaimer: not a GUE diver)
Yes and that person was Jarrod Jablonski, still GUE‘s president. Still, what I really like is that he does not take as much advantage of his position as he potentially could to promote his company.
Sums it up pretty much. But I have to disagree on the part Thaiboxen only costs about 1k. Fundies we’re probably the most expensive course I ever did or gonna do. It introduced me to GUE, made me love it and wanting to do more courses including tech/cave… Joke aside: Thank,you for the video and course with you. It was the best I ever took in diving.
Thank you very much! 🙂
I bought Halcyon gears 10years ago and I have got almost the same equipment since.
Yeah the same with me. It’s pretty durable 😄
For anybody not so into GUE, the best is at the end 00:14:24 - so true.
first of all i'd like to answer your question in the comments, (" Is it legit to make a living from being a scuba instructor")
sure, its absolutely legit! and i really think that dive instructors have a big struggle to earn enough money. I would be happy for all commercial dive instructors across the world to earn more money and be able to afford a better life of their profession.
that being said, as a CMAS non commercial instructor i'd like to adress some points about your video.
1. i sincerely do not think that you have to drop course quality just because you're making less money. i understand that you don't want to make exeptions and teach some people for free. But you can teach any number of students (in the (legal) limits of your ability to monitor/manage them safely) at any cost. even at zero cost. since that's what we non commercial instructors do in dive clubs all year round. with great results. (you mentioned degrading instructor/course quality. that's true and a whole other topic indeed.) This is simply a question of priority: making money, or teach diving to the best of your capabilities. you choose.
2. saying you would literally weigh down your students for safety reasons if the class gets bigger than 5-6 students is.... debatable at the least. i've never done a GUE class but i'd say that literally is the opposite of what GUE wants to teach. besides that, it's unsafe and malicious practice that's being used as a bad excuse. no matter wether CMAS, GUE, SSI, PADI or what. in 2022/2023 we don't want our students nailed to the ground. and you're actually making the class unsafer this way.
3. as someone who used to work freelance in germany, i get the point about what the costs of working freelance are. BUT! although your equipment and dive insurance costs should be calculated in and payed by students. i would advise to never ever use that as an argument in front of students. Since i really think you would pay these costs anyway if you weren't an instructor. since diving is your hobby, probably your life. we all have to pay equipment and insurance.
4. indeed, the industry has a problem with unprofessional people.
but.
5. we're all dive buddies!
bottom line: there are not enough (soon to be) divers to sustain all commercial instructors. but in the end we're all in it for the diving. and underwater we're nothing but dive buddies. and i expect any diver to treat any other diver as that.... a buddy.
All points considered a short
TL;DR: you say, that lowering your cost would mean that you also have to lower the quality of your courses. i actually would say the opposite is true. you struggle every month to cramp as many students in your precious time as possible. while non commercial instrucutors simply take all the time it needs for one student. i don't care, i dont get paid anyway. i don't need to have at least X amount of students. less is even (financially) better for me.
Thank you for your very thorough comment. However, I'd somewhat disagree with some of your points:
1. As a non-commercial instructor, you're not teaching at zero cost. It's just you covering the costs. And that's perfectly ok if you just enjoy teaching and see it as a hobby because you live from something else. In the latter case, I'm sure the instructor can take all the time the students need and deliver a high-quality class. But if the instructor has to make a living from diving and can't rely on other sources of income, I don't see a reason for him to deliver high quality at meager wages...
2. I didn't say everyone is doing that, but it is what I observed innumerable times in non-GUE classes. GUE classes are limited to 3 students, so there's no need to nail students to the ground - hence, you have fewer students to ask money from
3. My argument here aimed more to think about the fact that taking 1000 EUR for a GUE fundamentals class does not add 1000 EUR to my assets and that I do not earn 12000 EUR a month because I can possibly ask 12 students each month to pay me 1000 EUR each. If I look at diving as a normal (freelance) job, I have to cover the costs of living. And that includes insurance, tax, and so on, too. Sure, if I was not teaching, I'd have these insurances, too - but in that case, somebody else would be paying for them, for example, my employer or my clients.
I explain all these costs to my students, cause I think that transparency is the key. Sure...I'd still own dive gear without teaching. A driving instructor would most likely own a car anyway....but does that mean he cannot tell the students that some of the money he asks is not just for his pocket but to cover the costs of the car? I own three or four sets of equipment just to be able to give these items to students (free of charge by the way), which I would not do if I was not teaching. And they need maintenance, they break, wear off, and need to be replaced...I believe my students should know where the costs come from.
5. I agree. Dive buddies we are. Still, if I'm a lawyer, I still need to ask money from my friends for legal services, too. If I'm a baker, even my friends can't get their bread all for free, unless I'm a hobby lawyer or a hobby baker who can cover life from alternative sources.
So in the end: I taught the major part of my life for free in a club and spend probably thousands there just to teach people. I think the teaching quality was still not bad in these days. And I think many non-commercial instructors do a great job, even without being paid. But I assume in close to 100% of the cases, these people are not starving and have their lives already covered. And even today, I do not rely on diving for my personal income. Diving is only a minor part of my earnings. I live basically from being a company owner and teaching at university which means I do not teach a minimum amount of students each month. And quite frankly, there are only very few GUE instructors who rely truly just on diving (although some wish to, but that's another story). Most of my dear colleagues have other sources of income, be it something totally different, or running a dive center, having a dive shop, or working for equipment suppliers - because even with GUE-pricing, it's hard to make a living just from diving while maintaining the high quality, GUE demands.
I'd like to emphasize what I wrote in the beginning: If you go to a club and learn diving at no cost - it's not at no cost. It's just at someone else costs so you can do it without paying money (and here comes the discussion about the devaluation of diving instruction by non-commercial instructors ;) )
@@DoktorBEN @DoktorBEN I guess we happily agree to disagree, although just in some points. Overall I understand all your points and would even agree with most of them.
Indeed, there is no diving course at zero cost. Even in a dive club we have to charge about 100€ just to cover the cost for logbook, certification, learning book and dive table. After that another 150€ as club entry cost to keep the compressor etc. Up an running. So that makes it already not a "zero cost" course. And indeed, a lot of the other costs are paid by instructors. Fair enough, at that price we are a hard competition for any professional out there. You simply couldn't keep up with that price which leads somewhat to "devaluation".
Although our low price comes with a big disadvantage: our course takes 4 - 6 months. So as always: time is money. It's up to the student to decide whether time or money is more important.
I take it as a big privilege that I'm able to have a job nice enough to allow me to teach people basically free of charge. And as someone who knows how much work it is to teach and that's concerned about lowering standards to be able to earn more money, I whole heartedly think that instructors deserve to charge a good amount of money. I don't think that 1000€ is too much.
I'd even go so far that I hope that prises get raised. Because these dumping prises you'll sometimes see only lead to shorter courses with less training. We saw qualification standards dropping year after year which is quite concerning.
I think gue is a good way to try and fight these low standards and raise the bar again. But of course, good quality has its price.
Either in real money paid by the student. Or a lot of time and goodwill from a non profit instructor.
Because again: we're buddies in the end. And I don't want my (soon to be) buddies that I reached to not be able to manage any problem underwater. I need them to be safe divers. That should be priority number one at any point.
Thanks for your quick and good answer. Keep on your good work with your channel. Really like the work.
A Halcyon plate has one hole that is not suitable for all divers and the best of them is Oms and in fact they are rising from oms
I don’t see much of a difference between OMS and Halcyon
Funny facts， My gue instructor do not require me to buy lot of thing, But now I own SF2, 11 or 9 set of deco regs , 2 or 3 Drysuits and going to buy a DPV. Even they are not all halcyon, but come on , you do buy things cotinuously to dive. Why not the good gear on the market
Yeah…that’s how it is
No issue with prices, just a pity about the no vapers rules, rules me out.
All the Agencies are nothing but a diving club. Their authority amounts to zero.
In the US, yeah. But the US is it not the world. Still, why do diving clubs need authority anyway?
Africa twin can go to Padi!
I like offensive thesis. 😄
The biggest thing that people have to understand today is that diving is expensive. There’s no way of getting around that. Start adding helium, even more expensive.
The best bit of advice I have heard/read was that “most people are happy to spend £100+ on a night out, but are unhappy to do so (on helium) for a safer dive” - the same extends to the quality of your diving training.
Aside from this there are plenty of dive clubs who train for free such as the BSAC, but having a good instructor in your club that teaches at the level you want is just luck. If this isn’t an option you’ve got to pay for it regardless of agency.
There’s always the old saying too “if your good at something, never do it for free” - not always true, but if you had the chance to do your passion for a living, wouldn’t you? I guess many of the best divers in the world have capitalised on their skills to monetise their passion, so they can do more diving/get onto world leading expeditions etc., not to earn lots of money.
Yes very true!
Lots of people want things on the cheap. Going outside the agency by the instructor could have some legal problems. The diver you train may decide to sue you or GUE.
Depends on contract and the applicable law - but why should anyone sue GUE if the instructor teaches outside GUE?
@@DoktorBEN it's been my experience that if this guy wants some GUE type of training, unofficial training, if there is a problem people will be angry. I work with people like this. Any injury because they did not want to pay for proper instruction means they will due anyone that has money. The instructor or GUE. It won't matter. Most settlements are our of court.
Yeah that’s true. It’s the kind of person. Luckily there’s always a judge in charge (and laws).
Dive industry is a funny world. There are 2 worlds, the recreational world starting with OWD and the TEC world starting with "Fundamentals". While the 1st provides more or less live supporting equpment for the surface and pockets to collect items, the latter one is the only logic approach to dive procedures. While it is a very simple account, that Tec Equipment has more and more expensive materials and longer course lessons, most people are better of, just taking an OWD class and renting equipment here and now. Whereas everything beyond that starting from AOWD is a waste of money and You can throw everything to the trash. Those ones are better of going for fundamentals right from start. I dont have a very evident opinion for either decision as I am a lucky one who saved a lot of money by having a DIR-Stile reg setup right from the start and transfering to sidemount only from then.
The main "problem" is separating these 2 worlds right to begin with. Or more provocative: Diving is not for everyone, which is denied by the recreational approach.
The question is…is separating the two worlds the way to go or uniting them. Lastly we’re all recreational divers cause we dive for recreation 😀
@@DoktorBEN ☮
If you want to be a tech diver (twins etc) you already are spending bucks. If you want to look cool and be cheap find another sport. It took me 8 years of layaway and going into some debt to get get my intro to Tech behind me. Do I wish I could could do it cheaper of course I do. But going into tech is a whole different level, higher level equipment such as regs computers and manifolds. Diving twins are twice as expensive two tanks to viz every year every 5 years hydro'd and fills. GUE is a business and their instructors are high level professionals as well as other agencies SSI TDI etc. Its the nature of the sport more advanced stuff means more risks, more risks means you need to use better equipment. It just a bitter pill to swallow.
Oh yeah! That’s the case!
Why would you buy anything else but Halcyon and Perdix??
When you are serious only the best is good enough
No never! I signed the Halcyon/Shearwater-supply-life-contract with my blood and Jarrod will come down on me and strike with fire and lightning so I crumble into dust! 🤣🤣
Don't forget your Santi suit too, that's compulsory also
Sure! Wearing it all day and night…24/7