I was taught many years ago (about 49) that you should completely rough out all your surfaces and major holes/bores before starting to finish a job. That has saved my arse many times. Kap
When started my apprenticeship in 1977 I used to rough out forged tool steel on a shaper taking of the crust, then block it up on a face mill then plough grind it. Then it was milled out and re ground as it used to " move.
I read the title and was expecting a video on the emotional stress of machining. Judging from the complexity of the parts you machine as well as the large dollar figures of the machine, tooling and materials you use, I'm sure you've got a few talking points on that subject as well.
Very cool. Interrupted API threads? in Inconel. Don't see that every day. Oil and gas stuff? Very nice looking part. Okuma has a similar control setup where you can save a location, pull out change inserts whatever then pick back up even in the middle of a threading cycle. I do like the configuration of that mazak. All the best. Tom
Doosan with fancy controls have program interrupt which does the same thing. You don’t need to save points the machine just remembers what moves you’ve made and then runs them in reverse up to ten different moves.
Peter, That was an awesome example and explanation of material stresses and how they affect the parts. It also shows how difficult it is to predict the stresses in the material. That thing really turned into a banana on you, good thing you had enough stock left to true it back up. That material is $$$$. Adapting your order of operations from a rigidity based strategy to a stress base is key. Some parts we make when the billets are cut from the bar, a sample needs to be sent to the lab to verify material properties all the way down the bar. Very much enjoy your videos.
Schooled, excellent analysis & explanation. learn't a lot. how do you machine the recesses where the threads are??? that has me puzzled. Great content on your video's, very informative & interesting
Phil's Projects I mill away most of the material than use a special shaping tool for the corners. See my previous video Things are shaping up at the shop.
I learned as a newbie in the shop 30yrs. ago on manual equipment from an old timer: Rough the OD, Rough the ID, Finish the ID, Finish the OD. This has saved me so many times since then, that I drill it into the apprentices now. Your analysis and observations are very much appreciated and I will add this video to my list for the new guys to watch. Thanks.
@@easyboy1950 I'm sure I'm not the only hobbyist who does machining who it never occured to. Even though I know material can bend after machining. This video and the comments have been very useful for me.
This channel is where you come to once you have moved on from being a maker and you have become a manufacturer. This is the business end of machining. He is great, so much to learn, but this is the advanced course.
I wish I could learn from you!😭😁 Love the details, tips and tricks and all the information that you provide! Very useful! Never machined inconel, but heard how difficult it is, machined ti64 and it wasn't quite challenging as I thought it would be. How do they compare?
The Okuma control has a similar feature and has had for ages. I think Fanuc has the feature too, but it has to be implemented by the machine builder, and many of them are too lazy or too cheap to do so.
Hurco controls these days are picking up where mazatrol left off. They'll do all kinds of rest machining functions like this tool return point thing along with fancy canned cycles such as peck tapping. The basic "interrupt" button on new hurcos is far and away better than feed hold. Interrupt automatically retracts the tool, turns off the spindle, kills coolant. Just remember to define the tool not to retract z if you're using a t-slot cutter or slitting saw ;) I'm mostly a mill guy with a little bit of smaller live tool lathe experience. Sub spindle hand offs, cross holes, face bolt patterns, milling hexes n such. Just doing the basics when shit starts to get to be too much like milling for our hard working lathe guys.
Interesting Video this should be common knowledge for any machinist. You should see what a 30+ foot marine shaft does once you rough it over. By the way the tool point reset isn´t only on Mazak i know from personal experience that at least Fagor can do it too.
2384SKIPPER yeah, I worked with Siemens and Heidenhain's DMG machines, they all have this function. And they even have program lines calculation if you wanna start mid way in the program.
This re-positioning in cycle is even more easy in Heidenhain. It remembers your movements and does them reverse if you want if you go back in position. Save lot's of time instead of hand programming the movement positions. I use every day Heidenhain, Mazatrol, Fanuc, Okuma & Siemens Simatic and they all have this. I find personally Heidenhain most easy and fastest system in re-positioning in cycle. PS. Please keep on going with sharing your great video's and tips
That interesting it seems all the newer controls have this function. I haven't had a opportunity working for myself to use anything newer than about 10 years old. Thanks! for the information and complement.
Rough then finish for anything not critical. Rough, semi finish, stabilise, finish for anything critical. Rough, split, relax, semi rough, vibro relax, semi finish, relax, finish for split critical jobs. That’s a go to for me regardless of materialz
Uuuhhhg.. material inconsistencies are common in most materials, but 304 seems to be the worst... Not to mention it moves around so damn much. I machined a bunch of parts from explosion bonded copper/304.. still have nightmares about flip flopping that stuff!!
Long skinny parts in 304 are the bane of my work, which is job shop laser cutting. Parts cut from the outside edges of a plate will warp so much I have to stop and remove them before I can cut the rest. Dealing with the consequences of wildly different released stresses adds a considerable amount of time cost (and sometimes rework!). I've had to educate a couple front office people on why all the parts cut out of a 'flat' plate don't come out flat...
Great video! Its awesome to see more and more seasoned machinists put out content like this. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and letting us look over your shoulder.
I have found that this process is not immediate for some materials. Duplex 25Cr, in particular, will relax gradually over maybe 24-48 hours. With these materials, I'd recommend roughing or ejector drilling, then letting it chill out for a day or two, and then setting back up again for the finishing.
My experience with the 'EN' series steel is that you have to turn the Job around and Turn it from both ways right until the finishing cut ie: EN 8 to EN 14 B . . . and many other hybrid Steels do Stress the same way. I understand that in a CNC machine, turning the job around after every cut would drive the Turning Quote or Price right up !
some Fanuc controls or atleast the one ive used, "oi-md", had a "manual intervention and return" function. very similar to what you explained in this video. an extremely helpful function if working with tough materials and using an insert tool. simply press feed hold then coolant off, go to handle mode, turn off the spindle and jog the tool to a suitable location to change the insert. then once done turn the spindle and coolant back on then go to memory mode and press cycle start. the machine will feed back to the last machining position and carry on. i was completely unaware of this function until recently and thought you had to start from the beginning of the program. be wary though that the machine will feed back to the original point in a straight line and if this is not considered the machine may crash into the workpiece!
I watch a vid where he mentions how expensive the material is, the next he say's how close he was to scraping one. Imagine how difficult it would be to make that part before cnc or dro, trying to measure down that hole. I've machined cast iron ( sg ) bars, about 2 inch dia, 2 foot long, they bend a bit when you cut through the skin, but I wasn't working to the tolerances of this guy, a tape measure was used.
This guy seems like the type of co worker that feels he don't need nobody's help . He to good for help lol. If I'm the guy with the air hose I'm blowing that shit some more. Get you ass mad 🤣🤣
I milked a bright mild steel bar for my model loco, i took it out of the vice it had curved about 0.010" next ones time I'll machine small amounts off each face to allow the stress to even out
on a 25 year old maho 600e you can do the same. prg stop (read botton) spindel stop . . move axes away ,, push cycle start and it runs back and continues prg
miss my machine shop now I now have a cnc milltronics mill and a hardinge chnc in the garage and only machine for fun and friends, all your machining is too high stress!!! I sleep at night now
Where you stopped the cycle with Tool Point Save. I have to say, Hurco has a more streamlined way of doing that. Here is how it works on their VMC'S. Press Intrupt (yellow button beside auto mode.) Z axis goes to home position and spindle shuts off. Then you can jog the machine wherever you need to. Clear chips, take a measurement, whatever you need to do. Then, when you are ready to resume. Simply press Auto and Cycle Start. The machine picks up right where it left off. I would imagine, it works the same way on all of their machines.
Thanks Brian. The house is getting there. My wife's brother is in the home remodeling business so he has been working on it for the last month. The whole inside on the bottom floor is totally demoed out the cabinet maker is going to start next week to rebuild the cabinets. We have to get a inspector to test for mold spores before we can redo the insulation and drywall. We are currently staying with my son in law.
@@EdgePrecision thats a damn shame, hopefully he had a decent and fulfilling life. Its funny how someone leaves behind a legacy, to me hes just the guy with a loud hose and nothing more.
I'm only a 2d Gantry mill guy, but our 08 Haas gr510 has something similar. If your in the middle of an operation (say profiling a part) feed hold, turn off spindle, hand jog, move the spindle to wherever. When you want to return, hit memory then feed start. Should resume your regularly scheduled programming. Lol.
The problem of stress reminds me of a time in the last shop where I worked when we had a problem with making flat aluminium test coupons, a job which the shop did on-and-off for a couple years without much issue. They were 8"x10" plates of 6061 aluminium which were machined flat with a 12-inch shell mill on a vacuum , taking off about half the plate thickness. One day we had two batches of plates where several of them would come out of the machine bowed. It came down to the fact the plates were machined only from one side, and enough was being removed that the internal stresses were causing the plates to bow after removing them from the fixture.
totally awesome explanation! You gave me more info about stresses in metal in this video than all the past reading I have done. Real world experiences and a demo. Great stuff! Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us.
20000th of an inch translates to one or a couple microns, and thats nothing even if in the most tolerance demanding parts ( especially for the size of your part) . You are really crazy if you are bothered by such a small amount of deviation !
I'm sure you must be referring to 2,000th of a inch not 20,000. But in any event. As a machinist all I am worried about is getting the parts I make, in tolerance according to the drawings dimensions. I do have to take into account things that influence all machining operations.
Man this is such an informational video! I just programmed a 96" long part, and had all kinds of problems with warp. Wish I would've seen this video before hand!!
This is priceless knowledge.. I've been a toolmaker/machinist for 35yrs, let me tell ya, you really need to know this stuff or you're gonna make a lot off bad parts.
Great video, Peter! FYI, there are machines that have features similar to the TPS feature that you've shown here. I've run a couple styles of "teach-in lathes" that have a "tool inspection" feature. Typically it's something along the lines of Feedhold>handwheel out>do what you need to do (clear chips, check insert...)>handwheel back in to within .200" on both axis>start spindle and press go. As far as stresses go, on some parts I've done before I've actually had to drill and rough ID and rough OD, and then take them out and leave them for a little while (overnight or a couple days depending on what's going on) before going back and finishing. Again, great video!
This is a good video. Lots on Tube about high speed milling, volume milling , faster then fast...... Almost none talks about the STRESS in the material
Fabulous explanation especially on paper with issues of locked in and asymmetrically released stresses (in spite of "Stress relieving/relaxation") as well as stresses put into material as result of machining. Beautiful part at the end! Thanks so much for sharing all of this... Very generous and very valuable also THANK YOU!
thank you for your video! I was amazed at how short the dovetail grip is, I normally work in aluminum and hesitate to grip less than 1/10 of the part's length. I am curious as to how you calculate what's safe and what is not? btw, I work with a hidraulic chuck as opposed to your manual 4 jaw chuck, so I dont have the ability to make the dovetail grip angle so acute,. following your videos I added 3 degrees taper to the grip of all the parts I make. (they used to be straight diameters).
TPS is smart.. Sinumerik controls got something alot the same.. really smart when you machine big parts and dont want to waste time on air chips.. about the stress.. its always a great way to learn how your material works when doing big jobs like this to check for runout after each tool/operation... great video..
TPS tip was very nice . We do this kind of thing usually only when there is G0 on " next " and perform it with Single block on (not using TPS at all ). I ll try TPS first thing in the morning on monday. Great vids !
Nice video again. But this phenomenon i experience on a daily basis. You have still have a small piece here so the runout is litle. My colleague had this Dia.90 x 2800mm bar that had to be turned to 50 and 80 for a trapezium thread and during the roughing cut he had to release the tailstock multiple times to relieve stress and tension from the long bar. It also varies from material to material. We almost rough every piece we make and then finish them all. Just for this phenomenon only. Takes lot's of time and setups but it's really needed when making big pieces. Once again, great video to explain it so nicely. (btw your last video when u created that measuring device was very nice and inspiring) Get a patent for it. And get it on the market
Would be interesting to machine a little feature at the chuck end of the job, little groove and diameter, for indication, to check for give in the chuck assembly and jaws.
Dude your parts look nice! Also love that lathe! I know this might not be a proper question to ask but ied love to know how much you got paid per part. Thanks very much for the video!
The part you are machining is quite unique in its feature. The material stock is what is "keeping it together". Once that stock has been removed , the part is going to flex whichever way the stress get relieved.
Peter checkout that Hertal OD insert anti chatter insert with warpage problems this insert has VEARY little tool pressure you get 8 cutting edges on each insert try it.
I've seen a face mill used for turning down a bar ..Turn Milling..not sure on the advantages or disadvantages though or if this method is used to speed up machining or reduce stress?
Haas controls have a similar feature for point return. Not sure if the Fanuc controls on the vertical lathes and boring mills I run have it. Good video and stress explanation
Try lining up the high spot with a jaw, rotating part unclamped, then lower jaw pressure to a safe holding pressure, then hit jaw with hammer. as the highspot is in one spot im assuming unless its gone oval in a few places, this may work to tap true if high spot is lined to a jaw
if you did the internal work first, wouldn't it make the outer dimensions easier if not completely eliminate the issues that you had? or would stresses be greater and more difficult to deal with because the part is hollow?
No, it was not run out. I ran (If I remember) around 8-10 of these parts. When the part is roughed down to the smaller neck diameter the stress in the stocks OD is relieved and causes distortion in the straightness of the bar.
Yup, the midcycle manual is like others have said in most controllers. Heidenhain I'm familiar with, it reverses the order of manual operations when resuming to cut and it also has the option of starting midcycle by precalculating how it got to the position where it is (think power outage). 5-axis can also retract along Z' for example after power outage during drilling in an angle. One fun in Heidenhain is also manual override during a cycle, you can reposition some axis with the handwheel while the cycle is running :) Charmilles EDM's also have midcycle manual option, just hit STOP, hit MANUAL/PENDANT, and you can then either manual position it or hit RETRACT and it automatically moves to the previous starting position. Very nice when you want to check how it is going or check the electrode or manually flush the area more.
My Mitsubishi horizontal mill has a Meldas control (buy the way all Mazaks are really Mitsubishi Meldas controls under the Mazatrol ). Anyway if you go into MDI and enter a tapping cycle in incremental mode but don't cancel it with a G80 you can manually tap holes with the hand wheel. Like this you have to give it a spindle speed lets say 100 RPM than a G91 so the code would look like this G91; S100; G84 F.100; Z-1.0; for a tap pitch of .100. Now run that at close to Zero return with the spindle. Let it finish than put it into the handle jog mode. The Z axis will now be synchronized with the spindle (at the feed in the tapping cycle) when you jog with the hand wheel. You can jog it back and forth just like you hand tap. It will remain effective until you push reset. I have not tried this on any other machines but it does work on this machine.
Generally, the one that is hot rolled, does have have such high internal stresses, but if it is hot forged, it will have that. We have toolox 44, that is forged and has spiral marks around it from the forging dies. Its highly directional with axial fiber orientation, if you turn it in one shot, it will move. Thanks for the video, it shows the issues so clearly!
Just finished watching the whole video, what a beautiful work or art that piece! Actually, I'd like to also add that the stress relieving can never remove that behavior, since the metal aligns itself in linear fibres which create a bias in stiffness and strength along the fibre direction. So cutting it off will change that stress and thus the bend.
TPS for Mazak is similar to Mid Auto Manual on Okuma, they've had it since at least the mid 90's. Regardless of MTB, it's an AMAZING feature that should be on all machines.
I give you a idea how long its been since I ran a Okuma. When we saved our programs we used their floppy drive that took their proprietary 8" floppy disks. I think that may have been in the late 70's or early 80,s. I'm not exactly sure. Wow that seems like a long time ago. The Mazak is the first machine I've run that had this feature and as you say it should be on all machines.
Never tried using tps in an iso program before. Im new to running iso tapes on my mazak, as we cut various connections on this machine, but i wondered if i can use tool suffixes in iso tapes? As in mazatrol i can define tool 4 or 4a for example, i have kenametal heads for my boring bar and need to change from my tnmg boring head to a 75 degree approach head. I have used the mdi to call the tool t0404.1. Can i use this in iso? Sorry for the long winded question.
Yes, In a EIA program on the Mazak the tool call outs go's like this. Tool 1A would be T1.01 Tool 1B would be T1.02 and so on. At least that's the way it works on my Mazatrol 640m Pro control. I don't think you need the prefix info like your example t0404.1 on my control T4.01 would be T4A all the other information the control would need is on the Mazatrol's tools page for that tool A(I use the Mazatrol tool setup page not the EIA tool offset page for everything except tip radius comp direction. The two interact with each other. This is kind off a complicated explanation for this. If you are interested let me know) . You would just have to change to tool A with a M6. For example I can use the same tool to turn toward the chuck and away from the chuck by just using a M6 tool change from one to the other. The tools orientation is on the tool page in the control. The machine will reorient the tool with the M6 T1.02 For tool 1B for example. Say I was turning toward the chuck with T1.01 (T1A)when finished I would move to a clearance position than command M6 T1.02 (T1B) and move in to turn away from the chuck. That is all that would be required in the program. All the other information would be in the tool setup. I hope that make sense. If not send me another question.
My Mazak had a cycle that would allow me to do a bore in multiple steps. This prevented chip build up. I can't remember what it was called but if I had a 7" bore 30" deep it would rough it out in 10" deep sections, or whatever you would set it at. The name of the cycle escapes me, but I can't imagine our 90's machine having it and that not.
You are correct that usually requires another first article. I really didn't change the shape of things just the order or sequence of the program. I moved the later roughing cycle up in the program, changing no finish cuts that establish the final dimensions. Thanks for keeping me honest.
Looking at the geometry and features of that part, I'm gonna guess there is a pyrotechnic charge inside the main cavity that produces a large volume of high pressure gas through that orifice.
I'm not entirely sure what this does. But the reason for the breach closure is. There is a instrument that goes inside. In order not to have to turn the cap many revolutions to close it because of wiring getting twisted to many times. The cap only has to turn a quarter of a turn. The whole thing than gets electron beam welded together. Its something that goes down deep in the ocean I think I heard. These buttress threads are timed precisely with the cap's threads.
After seeing some of your other videos I'm very surprised you fell for that one. I always get rid of as much material as possible before going to finish op's
Actually this wasn't the first part. It was the sixth part. The ones previous to this had no distortion. But just to be safe for the remainder of the parts I roughed out the neck before the finish cuts.
I was taught many years ago (about 49) that you should completely rough out all your surfaces and major holes/bores before starting to finish a job.
That has saved my arse many times.
Kap
When started my apprenticeship in 1977 I used to rough out forged tool steel on a shaper taking of the crust, then block it up on a face mill then plough grind it. Then it was milled out and re ground as it used to " move.
I've learned a lot.
Thanks for the explanation
I read the title and was expecting a video on the emotional stress of machining. Judging from the complexity of the parts you machine as well as the large dollar figures of the machine, tooling and materials you use, I'm sure you've got a few talking points on that subject as well.
Lol that's so true. :)
physical stress in the part is often a great contributor to physical stress in the machinist
Same here
Very cool. Interrupted API threads? in Inconel. Don't see that every day. Oil and gas stuff? Very nice looking part. Okuma has a similar control setup where you can save a location, pull out change inserts whatever then pick back up even in the middle of a threading cycle. I do like the configuration of that mazak. All the best. Tom
Doosan with fancy controls have program interrupt which does the same thing. You don’t need to save points the machine just remembers what moves you’ve made and then runs them in reverse up to ten different moves.
Interesting, distortion in round parts is not very often adressed.
All that large stuff would scare the heck out of me ;)
22:28
My heart skipped a beat there...
Peter, That was an awesome example and explanation of material stresses and how they affect the parts. It also shows how difficult it is to predict the stresses in the material. That thing really turned into a banana on you, good thing you had enough stock left to true it back up. That material is $$$$. Adapting your order of operations from a rigidity based strategy to a stress base is key. Some parts we make when the billets are cut from the bar, a sample needs to be sent to the lab to verify material properties all the way down the bar. Very much enjoy your videos.
Schooled, excellent analysis & explanation. learn't a lot.
how do you machine the recesses where the threads are??? that has me puzzled.
Great content on your video's, very informative & interesting
Phil's Projects I mill away most of the material than use a special shaping tool for the corners. See my previous video Things are shaping up at the shop.
Wow that dovetail clamping method is an eye opener for me. Going to steal this and put it in my toolbox.
I learned as a newbie in the shop 30yrs. ago on manual equipment from an old timer: Rough the OD, Rough the ID, Finish the ID, Finish the OD. This has saved me so many times since then, that I drill it into the apprentices now. Your analysis and observations are very much appreciated and I will add this video to my list for the new guys to watch. Thanks.
This is just common practice. I thought everybody knew that.
@@easyboy1950 I'm sure I'm not the only hobbyist who does machining who it never occured to. Even though I know material can bend after machining. This video and the comments have been very useful for me.
Peter's bigger point was that 6 pieces before ran fine - but the next might not.
This channel is where you come to once you have moved on from being a maker and you have become a manufacturer. This is the business end of machining. He is great, so much to learn, but this is the advanced course.
Peter indeed deserves far FAR more views. Super talented and humble.
machinists tend to find the term "maker" insulting
id rough, od rough, then face, then finish id/od one alway affects the other! Always id/od/face.
I wish I could learn from you!😭😁 Love the details, tips and tricks and all the information that you provide! Very useful! Never machined inconel, but heard how difficult it is, machined ti64 and it wasn't quite challenging as I thought it would be. How do they compare?
The Okuma control has a similar feature and has had for ages. I think Fanuc has the feature too, but it has to be implemented by the machine builder, and many of them are too lazy or too cheap to do so.
Are you making a cannon breech :P
It does look like a cannon breach. I think because of what's inside this housing they can't rotate the closure many turns to close it.
THANK YOU! Have been looking all over on how to use TPS, I'm kind of new to Mazatrol, and the manual wasn't very clear on how to use it.
I'm Glad it was some help. Thanks!
Hurco controls these days are picking up where mazatrol left off. They'll do all kinds of rest machining functions like this tool return point thing along with fancy canned cycles such as peck tapping. The basic "interrupt" button on new hurcos is far and away better than feed hold. Interrupt automatically retracts the tool, turns off the spindle, kills coolant. Just remember to define the tool not to retract z if you're using a t-slot cutter or slitting saw ;)
I'm mostly a mill guy with a little bit of smaller live tool lathe experience. Sub spindle hand offs, cross holes, face bolt patterns, milling hexes n such. Just doing the basics when shit starts to get to be too much like milling for our hard working lathe guys.
Beautiful work as usual. A great insight into the realities of machining. Thanks for making these videos.
Interesting Video this should be common knowledge for any machinist.
You should see what a 30+ foot marine shaft does once you rough it over.
By the way the tool point reset isn´t only on Mazak i know from personal experience that at least Fagor can do it too.
2384SKIPPER yeah, I worked with Siemens and Heidenhain's DMG machines, they all have this function. And they even have program lines calculation if you wanna start mid way in the program.
Also my old Fanuc 6 from 1984 has program re start :-)
thats all good but maybe the boss doesn't want you to rough machine then stress relieve then finish machine as time is money to them
This re-positioning in cycle is even more easy in Heidenhain. It remembers your movements and does them reverse if you want if you go back in position. Save lot's of time instead of hand programming the movement positions.
I use every day Heidenhain, Mazatrol, Fanuc, Okuma & Siemens Simatic and they all have this. I find personally Heidenhain most easy and fastest system in re-positioning in cycle.
PS. Please keep on going with sharing your great video's and tips
That interesting it seems all the newer controls have this function. I haven't had a opportunity working for myself to use anything newer than about 10 years old. Thanks! for the information and complement.
Just found you and started burning through your videos and wow! You really are putting a lot of great information out there, thanks for posting them!
Rough then finish for anything not critical.
Rough, semi finish, stabilise, finish for anything critical.
Rough, split, relax, semi rough, vibro relax, semi finish, relax, finish for split critical jobs.
That’s a go to for me regardless of materialz
I cant stop watching your channel. I wish you all the best
programmed stop for cleaning packed up bore swarf with a M0
Uuuhhhg.. material inconsistencies are common in most materials, but 304 seems to be the worst... Not to mention it moves around so damn much. I machined a bunch of parts from explosion bonded copper/304.. still have nightmares about flip flopping that stuff!!
Long skinny parts in 304 are the bane of my work, which is job shop laser cutting. Parts cut from the outside edges of a plate will warp so much I have to stop and remove them before I can cut the rest. Dealing with the consequences of wildly different released stresses adds a considerable amount of time cost (and sometimes rework!).
I've had to educate a couple front office people on why all the parts cut out of a 'flat' plate don't come out flat...
somebody else ..
Oh wow man.. I feel your pain there. The 304 we get back from laser or water are usually pringles..
Great video! Its awesome to see more and more seasoned machinists put out content like this. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and letting us look over your shoulder.
the restart feature you can do on simumerik and i know haas has a restart feature on there lathes..
Great video Peter very nice machine work you do some great projects and I really enjoy your videos.
I have found that this process is not immediate for some materials. Duplex 25Cr, in particular, will relax gradually over maybe 24-48 hours. With these materials, I'd recommend roughing or ejector drilling, then letting it chill out for a day or two, and then setting back up again for the finishing.
My experience with the 'EN' series steel is that you have to turn the Job around and Turn it from both ways right until the finishing cut ie: EN 8 to EN 14 B . . . and many other hybrid Steels do Stress the same way. I understand that in a CNC machine, turning the job around after every cut would drive the Turning Quote or Price right up !
some Fanuc controls or atleast the one ive used, "oi-md", had a "manual intervention and return" function. very similar to what you explained in this video. an extremely helpful function if working with tough materials and using an insert tool. simply press feed hold then coolant off, go to handle mode, turn off the spindle and jog the tool to a suitable location to change the insert. then once done turn the spindle and coolant back on then go to memory mode and press cycle start. the machine will feed back to the last machining position and carry on. i was completely unaware of this function until recently and thought you had to start from the beginning of the program. be wary though that the machine will feed back to the original point in a straight line and if this is not considered the machine may crash into the workpiece!
I watch a vid where he mentions how expensive the material is, the next he say's how close he was to scraping one. Imagine how difficult it would be to make that part before cnc or dro, trying to measure down that hole.
I've machined cast iron ( sg ) bars, about 2 inch dia, 2 foot long, they bend a bit when you cut through the skin, but I wasn't working to the tolerances of this guy, a tape measure was used.
This guy seems like the type of co worker that feels he don't need nobody's help . He to good for help lol. If I'm the guy with the air hose I'm blowing that shit some more. Get you ass mad 🤣🤣
I milked a bright mild steel bar for my model loco, i took it out of the vice it had curved about 0.010" next ones time I'll machine small amounts off each face to allow the stress to even out
Yup, seen same stress problems. Last 12 " of a 8 " diameter 8620 had stress in it. It also shows up in heat treatment.
That TPS mode is pretty sweet the doosan mills and lathes I run don't have it. I've run haas and fadal they didn't have it either that I knew of.
on a 25 year old maho 600e you can do the same. prg stop (read botton) spindel stop . . move axes away ,, push cycle start and it runs back and continues prg
miss my machine shop now I now have a cnc milltronics mill and a hardinge chnc in the garage and only machine for fun and friends, all your machining is too high stress!!! I sleep at night now
Where you stopped the cycle with Tool Point Save. I have to say, Hurco has a more streamlined way of doing that. Here is how it works on their VMC'S. Press Intrupt (yellow button beside auto mode.) Z axis goes to home position and spindle shuts off. Then you can jog the machine wherever you need to. Clear chips, take a measurement, whatever you need to do. Then, when you are ready to resume. Simply press Auto and Cycle Start. The machine picks up right where it left off. I would imagine, it works the same way on all of their machines.
retardbarf with Hurco, you don't have to jog back. It is a pretty cool feature.
Thank you for the insight and sharing your learning experience. Nice parts.
I thought we were about to talk about running a stressful machine shop😂
Great videos and always something to learn. Hope you are getting back to normal at your home !
Brian
Thanks Brian. The house is getting there. My wife's brother is in the home remodeling business so he has been working on it for the last month. The whole inside on the bottom floor is totally demoed out the cabinet maker is going to start next week to rebuild the cabinets. We have to get a inspector to test for mold spores before we can redo the insulation and drywall. We are currently staying with my son in law.
whats the email of the guy with the airhose, im going to send him a message about how loud it is.
Unfortunately the person in question passed away about three months ago. Not of covid by the way. Although they probably counted him that way.
@@EdgePrecision thats a damn shame, hopefully he had a decent and fulfilling life. Its funny how someone leaves behind a legacy, to me hes just the guy with a loud hose and nothing more.
I'm only a 2d Gantry mill guy, but our 08 Haas gr510 has something similar. If your in the middle of an operation (say profiling a part) feed hold, turn off spindle, hand jog, move the spindle to wherever. When you want to return, hit memory then feed start. Should resume your regularly scheduled programming. Lol.
That is a work of art 👍
The problem of stress reminds me of a time in the last shop where I worked when we had a problem with making flat aluminium test coupons, a job which the shop did on-and-off for a couple years without much issue. They were 8"x10" plates of 6061 aluminium which were machined flat with a 12-inch shell mill on a vacuum , taking off about half the plate thickness. One day we had two batches of plates where several of them would come out of the machine bowed. It came down to the fact the plates were machined only from one side, and enough was being removed that the internal stresses were causing the plates to bow after removing them from the fixture.
totally awesome explanation! You gave me more info about stresses in metal in this video than all the past reading I have done. Real world experiences and a demo. Great stuff! Thank you for taking the time to enlighten us.
This type of work is more suited to something like a Niles-Simmons N20...but then that's a far more expensive machine than this.
20000th of an inch translates to one or a couple microns, and thats nothing even if in the most tolerance demanding parts ( especially for the size of your part) . You are really crazy if you are bothered by such a small amount of deviation !
I'm sure you must be referring to 2,000th of a inch not 20,000. But in any event. As a machinist all I am worried about is getting the parts I make, in tolerance according to the drawings dimensions. I do have to take into account things that influence all machining operations.
Thanks for the tips.
Looks like a canon breech.
Wow, the final part is a work of art. Very interesting lesson on stress. From the video title there were two routes that this one could go.
Oh and yes, nothing like that Mazatrol programming. Nice and easy. And many adjustment features. It's really operator friendly.
Man this is such an informational video! I just programmed a 96" long part, and had all kinds of problems with warp. Wish I would've seen this video before hand!!
This is priceless knowledge.. I've been a toolmaker/machinist for 35yrs, let me tell ya, you really need to know this stuff or you're gonna make a lot off bad parts.
Great video, Peter! FYI, there are machines that have features similar to the TPS feature that you've shown here. I've run a couple styles of "teach-in lathes" that have a "tool inspection" feature. Typically it's something along the lines of Feedhold>handwheel out>do what you need to do (clear chips, check insert...)>handwheel back in to within .200" on both axis>start spindle and press go.
As far as stresses go, on some parts I've done before I've actually had to drill and rough ID and rough OD, and then take them out and leave them for a little while (overnight or a couple days depending on what's going on) before going back and finishing.
Again, great video!
This is a good video. Lots on Tube about high speed milling, volume milling , faster then fast......
Almost none talks about the STRESS in the material
Fabulous explanation especially on paper with issues of locked in and asymmetrically released stresses (in spite of "Stress relieving/relaxation") as well as stresses put into material as result of machining. Beautiful part at the end! Thanks so much for sharing all of this... Very generous and very valuable also THANK YOU!
So glad you completed your picture at 21:00, my OCD was peaking for a second. Fantastic video!
thank you for your video!
I was amazed at how short the dovetail grip is, I normally work in aluminum and hesitate to grip less than 1/10 of the part's length. I am curious as to how you calculate what's safe and what is not?
btw, I work with a hidraulic chuck as opposed to your manual 4 jaw chuck, so I dont have the ability to make the dovetail grip angle so acute,.
following your videos I added 3 degrees taper to the grip of all the parts I make. (they used to be straight diameters).
Your knowledge is always impressive, thank you for sharing.
That part must operate at crazy pressures!
I believe its 20,000 PSI.
TPS is smart.. Sinumerik controls got something alot the same.. really smart when you machine big parts and dont want to waste time on air chips..
about the stress.. its always a great way to learn how your material works when doing big jobs like this to check for runout after each tool/operation...
great video..
Always fascinating and interesting vids. Thank you.
TPS tip was very nice . We do this kind of thing usually only when there is G0 on " next " and perform it with Single block on (not using TPS at all ). I ll try TPS first thing in the morning on monday. Great vids !
Nice video again. But this phenomenon i experience on a daily basis. You have still have a small piece here so the runout is litle. My colleague had this Dia.90 x 2800mm bar that had to be turned to 50 and 80 for a trapezium thread and during the roughing cut he had to release the tailstock multiple times to relieve stress and tension from the long bar.
It also varies from material to material. We almost rough every piece we make and then finish them all. Just for this phenomenon only. Takes lot's of time and setups but it's really needed when making big pieces.
Once again, great video to explain it so nicely.
(btw your last video when u created that measuring device was very nice and inspiring) Get a patent for it. And get it on the market
Thanks for another great video. Your channel is definitely my favorite.
Would be interesting to machine a little feature at the chuck end of the job, little groove and diameter, for indication, to check for give in the chuck assembly and jaws.
Looks like something I would have drawn in drafting class (-8 Good info as always, thanks!
Dude your parts look nice! Also love that lathe! I know this might not be a proper question to ask but ied love to know how much you got paid per part. Thanks very much for the video!
Could it have been something else, though? Like maybe it slipped in the chuck sometime during the OD?
The part you are machining is quite unique in its feature. The material stock is what is "keeping it together". Once that stock has been removed , the part is going to flex whichever way the stress get relieved.
Peter checkout that Hertal OD insert anti chatter insert with warpage problems this insert has VEARY little tool pressure you get 8 cutting edges on each insert try it.
I've seen a face mill used for turning down a bar ..Turn Milling..not sure on the advantages or disadvantages though or if this method is used to speed up machining or reduce stress?
Thank you Peter for another Excellent video, as usual.
FIDIA controls have a similar function.
Haas controls have a similar feature for point return. Not sure if the Fanuc controls on the vertical lathes and boring mills I run have it. Good video and stress explanation
How’d you do the interruptions in the thread you show at the end? The fillets radii at the edges seem too small for the apparent depth, LxD ratio
Try lining up the high spot with a jaw, rotating part unclamped, then lower jaw pressure to a safe holding pressure, then hit jaw with hammer. as the highspot is in one spot im assuming unless its gone oval in a few places, this may work to tap true if high spot is lined to a jaw
Which lathe is that? Manufacturer and model?
It is a Mazak e650H mill turn machine.
if you did the internal work first, wouldn't it make the outer dimensions easier if not completely eliminate the issues that you had? or would stresses be greater and more difficult to deal with because the part is hollow?
Excellent video! Awesome content man, keep them coming!
That's a big Integrex, probably the biggest I've seen but I know they make them bigger. What is the milling spindle power?
douro20 The milling spindle has 50 hp and the turning spindle has 60 hp. The model is a e650H 120" between centers.
That's why you can't beat a good old lathe and tail stock live center.
Thanks a lot dear master, again learned a lot, again schooled.
A great lesson on dealing with stresses in materials.
P-A-I-N
Everything is a rubber...
Thank you for the video, be well!
It looks like runout to me and not distortion..are you sure the job is not moving slightly the more you ruff out?
No, it was not run out. I ran (If I remember) around 8-10 of these parts. When the part is roughed down to the smaller neck diameter the stress in the stocks OD is relieved and causes distortion in the straightness of the bar.
@@EdgePrecision thank you sir
Yup, the midcycle manual is like others have said in most controllers. Heidenhain I'm familiar with, it reverses the order of manual operations when resuming to cut and it also has the option of starting midcycle by precalculating how it got to the position where it is (think power outage). 5-axis can also retract along Z' for example after power outage during drilling in an angle.
One fun in Heidenhain is also manual override during a cycle, you can reposition some axis with the handwheel while the cycle is running :)
Charmilles EDM's also have midcycle manual option, just hit STOP, hit MANUAL/PENDANT, and you can then either manual position it or hit RETRACT and it automatically moves to the previous starting position. Very nice when you want to check how it is going or check the electrode or manually flush the area more.
My Mitsubishi horizontal mill has a Meldas control (buy the way all Mazaks are really Mitsubishi Meldas controls under the Mazatrol ). Anyway if you go into MDI and enter a tapping cycle in incremental mode but don't cancel it with a G80 you can manually tap holes with the hand wheel. Like this you have to give it a spindle speed lets say 100 RPM than a G91 so the code would look like this G91; S100; G84 F.100; Z-1.0; for a tap pitch of .100. Now run that at close to Zero return with the spindle. Let it finish than put it into the handle jog mode. The Z axis will now be synchronized with the spindle (at the feed in the tapping cycle) when you jog with the hand wheel. You can jog it back and forth just like you hand tap. It will remain effective until you push reset. I have not tried this on any other machines but it does work on this machine.
Hi Peter, is the blank forged?
Technically all material is forged but this is coming out of commercially available 9.0 dia. round bar.
Generally, the one that is hot rolled, does have have such high internal stresses, but if it is hot forged, it will have that. We have toolox 44, that is forged and has spiral marks around it from the forging dies. Its highly directional with axial fiber orientation, if you turn it in one shot, it will move.
Thanks for the video, it shows the issues so clearly!
Just finished watching the whole video, what a beautiful work or art that piece!
Actually, I'd like to also add that the stress relieving can never remove that behavior, since the metal aligns itself in linear fibres which create a bias in stiffness and strength along the fibre direction. So cutting it off will change that stress and thus the bend.
Very interesting, thanks for sharing
Wish I watched this last month...
TPS for Mazak is similar to Mid Auto Manual on Okuma, they've had it since at least the mid 90's. Regardless of MTB, it's an AMAZING feature that should be on all machines.
I give you a idea how long its been since I ran a Okuma. When we saved our programs we used their floppy drive that took their proprietary 8" floppy disks. I think that may have been in the late 70's or early 80,s. I'm not exactly sure. Wow that seems like a long time ago. The Mazak is the first machine I've run that had this feature and as you say it should be on all machines.
Never tried using tps in an iso program before. Im new to running iso tapes on my mazak, as we cut various connections on this machine, but i wondered if i can use tool suffixes in iso tapes? As in mazatrol i can define tool 4 or 4a for example, i have kenametal heads for my boring bar and need to change from my tnmg boring head to a 75 degree approach head. I have used the mdi to call the tool t0404.1. Can i use this in iso? Sorry for the long winded question.
Yes, In a EIA program on the Mazak the tool call outs go's like this. Tool 1A would be T1.01 Tool 1B would be T1.02 and so on. At least that's the way it works on my Mazatrol 640m Pro control. I don't think you need the prefix info like your example t0404.1 on my control T4.01 would be T4A all the other information the control would need is on the Mazatrol's tools page for that tool A(I use the Mazatrol tool setup page not the EIA tool offset page for everything except tip radius comp direction. The two interact with each other. This is kind off a complicated explanation for this. If you are interested let me know) . You would just have to change to tool A with a M6. For example I can use the same tool to turn toward the chuck and away from the chuck by just using a M6 tool change from one to the other. The tools orientation is on the tool page in the control. The machine will reorient the tool with the M6 T1.02 For tool 1B for example. Say I was turning toward the chuck with T1.01 (T1A)when finished I would move to a clearance position than command M6 T1.02 (T1B) and move in to turn away from the chuck. That is all that would be required in the program. All the other information would be in the tool setup. I hope that make sense. If not send me another question.
My Mazak had a cycle that would allow me to do a bore in multiple steps. This prevented chip build up. I can't remember what it was called but if I had a 7" bore 30" deep it would rough it out in 10" deep sections, or whatever you would set it at. The name of the cycle escapes me, but I can't imagine our 90's machine having it and that not.
Yes if I was programming in Mazatrol that cycle is still available. I run EIA (G code). This cutting strategy can also be done in a EIA program.
peter very informative video.
You are not supposed to be changing the process after a 1st article. Shame on you!
You are correct that usually requires another first article. I really didn't change the shape of things just the order or sequence of the program. I moved the later roughing cycle up in the program, changing no finish cuts that establish the final dimensions. Thanks for keeping me honest.
Was looking for this comment
Looking at the geometry and features of that part, I'm gonna guess there is a pyrotechnic charge inside the main cavity that produces a large volume of high pressure gas through that orifice.
I'm not entirely sure what this does. But the reason for the breach closure is. There is a instrument that goes inside. In order not to have to turn the cap many revolutions to close it because of wiring getting twisted to many times. The cap only has to turn a quarter of a turn. The whole thing than gets electron beam welded together. Its something that goes down deep in the ocean I think I heard. These buttress threads are timed precisely with the cap's threads.
@@EdgePrecision I saw the venturi shape, breach, and Iconel, all said "hot, high pressure, optimized flow" to me.
After seeing some of your other videos I'm very surprised you fell for that one. I always get rid of as much material as possible before going to finish op's
Actually this wasn't the first part. It was the sixth part. The ones previous to this had no distortion. But just to be safe for the remainder of the parts I roughed out the neck before the finish cuts.