In the south turmeric is often paired with black pepper. Medical science finally caught up with that pairing a number of years ago, showing that a component in black pepper makes more bio-available the primary medicinal compound in turmeric. Listening to you guys mess around is medicine, and we just got to that analogy's stop. Nope, there's more, Adam is turmeric and Peter is the pepper. There, done. I'm surprised you guys don't get more views. glad you have continued putting stuff up.
I felt like I not only understood all of this, but was also able to immediately put some of it to use, especially the pattern practice for the different "giveaways" and the triad pairs. I love feeling hopeful instead of lost!
3:03 "because dominant chords are part of diminished family" If you did want to go into that, all the way back in 1818 Anton Reicha, the composer/theorist/friend of Beethoven claimed that diminished chords do not even exists in his 1818 book "Course of Musical Composition". In his system, "diminished chords" are "false" interpretations of rootless dominant 9 or dominant b9 chords. If you apply this framework to music of the time, such as Chopin (who once considered studying with Reicha), you'll find that it applies very cleanly to the music. There are English translations in public domain easily available online if anyone is curious.
@@jbachman01 Barry Harris has great way of exploring diminished chords, but I think there are notable differences in the way he see diminished chords as opposed to the 18th-19th century conception of diminished chords.
Sometimes I like to think like this: Lydian Dominant is Myxolydian ♯4. Half-whole Diminished is Lydian Dominant «split 2» (into ♭9 and ♯9). Altered is Half-whole Diminished, but merge 5 and 6 (into the ♯5 between them). Whole-tone is Altered, but put the 9s back together. You can also go backwards, Altered is Whole-tone «split 2», etc.
I loved how we could hear and see the examples applied-so good! You know you hear these progressions/scales for years and now you see-oh that’s what’s going on.
The way of thinking about the Altered scale that made it click for me: Major scale with a sharp 1. I.E. G altered = F#major, but with G instead of F# Kinda weird but it’s technically just as many steps as the other methods
When I bring up the HW scale to non-jazz head guitarists, I call out the big dramatic riff from Radiohead's "Just." It's also simply a HW climb, but the tone and timing and where it's deployed sounds *great*.
If magicians reveal their secrets it takes the magic away. If musicians reveal their "secrets" it just deepens the magic. All the music masters are busy sharing their "secrets" every time you hear them play!!
Cool stuff. I learned the altered scale as a 16 year old (25 years ago) and remember thinking "what the heck is this crap all about"? I couldn't understand it. But just the other day I was noodling around with the diminished scale and thought "wait, is this the altered?" You answered that question. Thanks you. Hey, what is that music app you're using?
Super interesting how these different approaches to the dominant sound can impact people’s ears differently. Like they seem to agree that the diminished sound has “less tension” in it than altered bc of the natural 13. My ear absolutely disagrees (tho it’s all valid of course). Something about the natural 13 with the #11, # and b9s, the combination of that makes the diminished sound quite a bit more tense to my ear than the altered, which sounds a bit more cohesively “minor.” Like diminished seems to teeter between both minor and major vibes. Idk if I’m explaining this right, but this video rocks!
Half diminished and half whole tone is the way that worked best on guitar for me. It made it easier to see the interval patterns all over the neck without needing to know and repurpose the melodic minor scales.
I think of the altered scale as just using the Tritone #4 over the top, for some reason that’s easier for me to fathom, for example for the G7, I play Db7#4 scale which ends up being the same thing as the altered scale, using a 3,7,9 voicing for Db7 works fine as well
This is how I view the Half/Whole & Whole/Half diminished scales: The Half-Whole Diminished Scale is literally just 2 diminished 7th chords separated by a half step. And the Whole-Half Diminished Scale is just 2 diminished 7th chords separated by a Whole step. C Half-Whole Diminished Scale: C, D♭, E♭, E, F♯, G, A, B♭ The 2 Diminished 7th chords: C diminished 7th (C-Eb-Gb-A) Db diminished 7th (Db-E-G-Bb) C Whole-Half Diminished Scale: C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, A, B The 2 Diminished 7th chords: C diminished 7th (C-Eb-Gb-A) D diminished 7th (D-F-Ab-B) Sorry if I’m late to the party 😅😅. I just know it helps me see and construct it more quickly now.
Haaaa, finally someone mentions the great B. Harris. If I may add something: it could be interesting see it as a whole. There is 1 diminished scale: for exemple here > Ab diminished. Ab diminished is made of Ab B (Cb) D and F + the bass note of the dominants made from this > G Bb Db and E. So we get: Ab Bb B Db D E F G. If you want to play this scale on a diminished chord you start this scale from Ab B D or F (according to the diminished) AND you play the same notes on a dominant but from G Bb Db or E ( according to the dominant) (half-whole)... Same for the two other diminished... Have fun! Peace ✌🏻!
@@julienfraipont2810 I deleted the Barry Harris part before reading your comment 😅🙃 I thought it was off topic lol. But your perspective is interesting. I’m going to try to see it that way.
I like using the diminished scale on Secondary Dominant Chords that resolve to a minor chord. On the other hand, (no pun intended), I use the Altered Scale on Tritone Substitution chords. They seem to be the most appropriate under these conditions. Using the Altered Scale in a V7 to I situation, will get you a lot of outside notes, if that's what you're shooting for but I tend to be more conservative. The flip side is also true (at least for me), that if you use the Diminished Scale on a Tritone Substitution, again you'll get a lot of outside notes. I don't often make those last two choices.
I actually prefer the H/W diminished in major keys (the 13 is the major third of the key center) and in minor I prefer altered or fifth mode harmonic minor.
Hey! Isn´t the altered scale just like the Secondary Dominant, but from a diferent starting point? For example; G7alt would be just like Db7sharp11, but starting from G.
As far as usage I essentially have sort of rule of thumb and more or less use the Dominant Diminished exclusively for a target chord w/ a major third, , whereas the Altered Dominant I use for both minor and major third containing 'target/tonic chords) , I prefer this more 'diatonic ' (i.e., less chromatic) strategy. And on a complementary note, , I will more or less only use the Phrygian Dominant for a minor type target chord, same w/ the so called 'Lydian diminished', I think both work best if the intended target of tha Dominant chord is a minor tonic. If I recall correctly, Adam kinda adhered to some of the same principles on at least one of his guided practice live streams, where on a I/vi/ii/V cycle, the vi was turned into a V7/ii and he employed the Phrygian Dominant chord-scale, then on the V7 goin to the I, the chord scale employed was the half whole Dominant Diminished scale.
Regarding “altered Dom vs Diminished scale Dom”, may I suggest we stop confusing the dynamic at play here: 1) “Altered” strictly speaking is “diminished” whole-tone (just ask Jamie Aebersold for starters) and it’s got the flat 13. Also called Super-Locrian for some reason. Half-Whole Dim dominant, on the other hand, does NOT incorporate the flat 13. Try seeing that starting with a C diminished chord (C, Eflat, Gflat then A). Subtle but “noteworthy” sound difference. Still too much confusing nomenclature out here fir students if the genre
The Altered Dominant/ Scale, Diminished-whole tone/ 7th mode of melodic minor is also called 'Super Locrian' simply because the tetrachord it forms is a half diminished 7th (m7b5) chord. If you stack the melodic minor in thirds, and extract its 7th chords you'll see that
Maybe as a guitarist I simplify things too much, but as you say the flat vs nat 13th, plus the symmetrical movable nature of diminished and dominant chords available in half/whole scale are the key differences.
I've never understood why so many 'jazz school' types go straight to 'a mode of the melodic minor.' It's true, but what's the musical point? Do listeners hear that it's the 7th mode of a particular scale that has nothing to do with the current chord other than the insider geek knowledge? When listeners hear an Ab played over a G7 chord, do they think 'Hey, that sounds like the root of the same melodic minor scale!' ? I don't. I hear a b9 of G7. The rest is classroom details.
These guys are probably saying the same thing to themselves when they see the greats playing. Its not about being the best but enjoying your musical journey and learning to the best of your ability.
If magicians reveal their secrets it takes the magic away. When musicians reveal their "secrets" it just deepens the magic!!
Holy smokes. This is the best format I've ever seen for a music podcast. Hope to see more in the future!
could not be better an even time
Shit camera work.
This is why OpenStudioJazz rocks!
In the south turmeric is often paired with black pepper. Medical science finally caught up with that pairing a number of years ago, showing that a component in black pepper makes more bio-available the primary medicinal compound in turmeric. Listening to you guys mess around is medicine, and we just got to that analogy's stop. Nope, there's more, Adam is turmeric and Peter is the pepper. There, done. I'm surprised you guys don't get more views. glad you have continued putting stuff up.
I felt like I not only understood all of this, but was also able to immediately put some of it to use, especially the pattern practice for the different "giveaways" and the triad pairs. I love feeling hopeful instead of lost!
3:03 "because dominant chords are part of diminished family" If you did want to go into that, all the way back in 1818 Anton Reicha, the composer/theorist/friend of Beethoven claimed that diminished chords do not even exists in his 1818 book "Course of Musical Composition". In his system, "diminished chords" are "false" interpretations of rootless dominant 9 or dominant b9 chords. If you apply this framework to music of the time, such as Chopin (who once considered studying with Reicha), you'll find that it applies very cleanly to the music. There are English translations in public domain easily available online if anyone is curious.
very cool thanks for sharing
To clarify, Reicha does acknolage the dimished triad, but the diminished 7th chords are typically explained as rootless dominants.
For a more modern bebop exploration of that concept, Barry Harris
@@jbachman01 Barry Harris has great way of exploring diminished chords, but I think there are notable differences in the way he see diminished chords as opposed to the 18th-19th century conception of diminished chords.
Sometimes I like to think like this:
Lydian Dominant is Myxolydian ♯4.
Half-whole Diminished is Lydian Dominant «split 2» (into ♭9 and ♯9).
Altered is Half-whole Diminished, but merge 5 and 6 (into the ♯5 between them).
Whole-tone is Altered, but put the 9s back together.
You can also go backwards, Altered is Whole-tone «split 2», etc.
This is awesome. The back and forth of ideas and view points. Love the discussion.
So glad you include etudes with the music on screen cheers !!!
I loved how we could hear and see the examples applied-so good! You know you hear these progressions/scales for years and now you see-oh that’s what’s going on.
Y’all teach the hippest concepts. Thank you open studio.
Gotta be the best explanation and demonstration of those two great scales. Thanks fellas
This channel is so amazing wish I had this in high school
This is a wonderful exploration of this material. Thank you both!
Why not an album made of the first minutes of these episodes? WE would love it
The way of thinking about the Altered scale that made it click for me: Major scale with a sharp 1.
I.E. G altered = F#major, but with G instead of F#
Kinda weird but it’s technically just as many steps as the other methods
That's a great approach when you are trying to hear a full ii-V sound a tritone away
Ionian #1
Great lesson. Listening to you is training my ears. Will watch this over and over. Is that Queens Blvd in the background?
The half/whole then whole note scale is referred to by Kent Hewitt as Super Locrian. Kent mentions Chick and Herbie also.
When I bring up the HW scale to non-jazz head guitarists, I call out the big dramatic riff from Radiohead's "Just." It's also simply a HW climb, but the tone and timing and where it's deployed sounds *great*.
I’m so happy to see you guys this surprise morning. I really needed this today. 🥰💖 This was Crunchy Level 11 - Chipped Tooth! 😎👍🏽
The best video on this I’ve seen so far. 🙏
This! I’ve been too lazy to think about the difference. I knew they were, but I’m like no way. Brain exploded.
Omg the same
Me too 😢
Awesome stuff like always.
Thx for sharing your knowledge. 🙏🏼
I'm not a musician, but I like to hear these guys talk
Great opening.
Absolutely wonderful.
Damn it bro there's 427k other people subbing this channel. I want to be the only one learning these secrets.
If magicians reveal their secrets it takes the magic away. If musicians reveal their "secrets" it just deepens the magic. All the music masters are busy sharing their "secrets" every time you hear them play!!
excellent episode!
14:27 playing the scale at the same time was great
Cool stuff. I learned the altered scale as a 16 year old (25 years ago) and remember thinking "what the heck is this crap all about"? I couldn't understand it. But just the other day I was noodling around with the diminished scale and thought "wait, is this the altered?" You answered that question. Thanks you.
Hey, what is that music app you're using?
This is a top draw post chaps. Keep it coming.
This week on Piano Jazz with Marilyn McPartland
Super interesting how these different approaches to the dominant sound can impact people’s ears differently. Like they seem to agree that the diminished sound has “less tension” in it than altered bc of the natural 13. My ear absolutely disagrees (tho it’s all valid of course). Something about the natural 13 with the #11, # and b9s, the combination of that makes the diminished sound quite a bit more tense to my ear than the altered, which sounds a bit more cohesively “minor.” Like diminished seems to teeter between both minor and major vibes. Idk if I’m explaining this right, but this video rocks!
Auditory Dynamite..! - long live the longer form deep dive episodes .:)
Hey guys, the triad pairs over the half whole dim scale just knocked me out. 😮😮😮 At 17:20. But the triads CHANGE in this case. C#m G. Bbm. Em, etc.
You guys posting this early, nice! 👌
Half diminished and half whole tone is the way that worked best on guitar for me. It made it easier to see the interval patterns all over the neck without needing to know and repurpose the melodic minor scales.
I think of the altered scale as just using the Tritone #4 over the top, for some reason that’s easier for me to fathom, for example for the G7, I play Db7#4 scale which ends up being the same thing as the altered scale, using a 3,7,9 voicing for Db7 works fine as well
Great lesson.
This is how I view the Half/Whole & Whole/Half diminished scales:
The Half-Whole Diminished Scale is literally just 2 diminished 7th chords separated by a half step. And the Whole-Half Diminished Scale is just 2 diminished 7th chords separated by a Whole step.
C Half-Whole Diminished Scale: C, D♭, E♭, E, F♯, G, A, B♭
The 2 Diminished 7th chords:
C diminished 7th (C-Eb-Gb-A)
Db diminished 7th (Db-E-G-Bb)
C Whole-Half Diminished Scale:
C, D, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, A, B
The 2 Diminished 7th chords:
C diminished 7th (C-Eb-Gb-A)
D diminished 7th (D-F-Ab-B)
Sorry if I’m late to the party 😅😅. I just know it helps me see and construct it more quickly now.
Haaaa, finally someone mentions the great B. Harris.
If I may add something: it could be interesting see it as a whole.
There is 1 diminished scale: for exemple here > Ab diminished.
Ab diminished is made of Ab B (Cb) D and F + the bass note of the dominants made from this > G Bb Db and E.
So we get: Ab Bb B Db D E F G.
If you want to play this scale on a diminished chord you start this scale from Ab B D or F (according to the diminished) AND you play the same notes on a dominant but from G Bb Db or E ( according to the dominant) (half-whole)...
Same for the two other diminished...
Have fun! Peace ✌🏻!
@@julienfraipont2810 I deleted the Barry Harris part before reading your comment 😅🙃 I thought it was off topic lol.
But your perspective is interesting. I’m going to try to see it that way.
Love this ep!
Great stuff❤
I like using the diminished scale on Secondary Dominant Chords that resolve to a minor chord. On the other hand, (no pun intended), I use the Altered Scale on Tritone Substitution chords. They seem to be the most appropriate under these conditions. Using the Altered Scale in a V7 to I situation, will get you a lot of outside notes, if that's what you're shooting for but I tend to be more conservative. The flip side is also true (at least for me), that if you use the Diminished Scale on a Tritone Substitution, again you'll get a lot of outside notes. I don't often make those last two choices.
I actually prefer the H/W diminished in major keys (the 13 is the major third of the key center) and in minor I prefer altered or fifth mode harmonic minor.
Can you play and entire solo just using the Diminished or Altered Scale respectively? 🎹
Great stuff, thank you!
Hey! Isn´t the altered scale just like the Secondary Dominant, but from a diferent starting point? For example; G7alt would be just like Db7sharp11, but starting from G.
Yes! That’s how I think of it too! Just dawned on me
Excellent, is there a pdf? Anyway ... gala!
Man you guys are masters🎉🎉
This is really "the nerdiest stuff" ever, ...but also the hippest!
Brilliant!
Luka Doncic looking slim and fit for once in the offseason.
Great intro riffs! 😎🤓
As far as usage I essentially have sort of rule of thumb and more or less use the Dominant Diminished exclusively for a target chord w/ a major third, , whereas the Altered Dominant I use for both minor and major third containing 'target/tonic chords) , I prefer this more 'diatonic ' (i.e., less chromatic) strategy.
And on a complementary note, , I will more or less only use the Phrygian Dominant for a minor type target chord, same w/ the so called 'Lydian diminished', I think both work best if the intended target of tha Dominant chord is a minor tonic. If I recall correctly, Adam kinda adhered to some of the same principles on at least one of his guided practice live streams, where on a I/vi/ii/V cycle, the vi was turned into a V7/ii and he employed the Phrygian Dominant chord-scale, then on the V7 goin to the I, the chord scale employed was the half whole Dominant Diminished scale.
What software do you use to make the piano appear on the screen?
Would you say the piano you play is intentionally out of tune like a regular piano? Or is the problem with the piano's display screen?
Guys you're amazing
great episode. is there a pdf? i don't see a link.
I think you're mixing up your spices Adam. Tumeric is the yellow one, it tastes nothing like cumin.
Regarding “altered Dom vs Diminished scale Dom”, may I suggest we stop confusing the dynamic at play here: 1) “Altered” strictly speaking is “diminished” whole-tone (just ask Jamie Aebersold for starters) and it’s got the flat 13. Also called Super-Locrian for some reason.
Half-Whole Dim dominant, on the other hand, does NOT incorporate the flat 13. Try seeing that starting with a C diminished chord (C, Eflat, Gflat then A). Subtle but “noteworthy” sound difference.
Still too much confusing nomenclature out here fir students if the genre
The Altered Dominant/ Scale, Diminished-whole tone/ 7th mode of melodic minor is also called 'Super Locrian' simply because the tetrachord it forms is a half diminished 7th (m7b5) chord. If you stack the melodic minor in thirds, and extract its 7th chords you'll see that
Is this an episode of you'll hear it? I think I'll have to watch on RUclips and stop listening on Spotify from now.
thanks masters
Love this❤❤❤❤
wow fantastic
Excelente contenido
I can’t believe I actually understood anything that was said in this video.
I must be getting pretty good at the piano 😂
Could you do a breakdown of C Major vs A minor?
Love the duo lingo lessons 😂
we are on to some danny elfman shit here!
5:38 was casually very beautiful ;(
look at a dominant chord up a half step and play the melodic minor scale Dom demystified
Par Excellence!
Is the thumbnail supposed to say "ALTERED VS DIMINISHED"?
Maybe as a guitarist I simplify things too much, but as you say the flat vs nat 13th, plus the symmetrical movable nature of diminished and dominant chords available in half/whole scale are the key differences.
Half whole diminished triads= Messiaen
I like better the piano sound than the rhodes.
🎉
Solarrrr
totally "Gorge' "
Adam who?
I've never understood why so many 'jazz school' types go straight to 'a mode of the melodic minor.' It's true, but what's the musical point? Do listeners hear that it's the 7th mode of a particular scale that has nothing to do with the current chord other than the insider geek knowledge? When listeners hear an Ab played over a G7 chord, do they think 'Hey, that sounds like the root of the same melodic minor scale!' ? I don't. I hear a b9 of G7. The rest is classroom details.
It's just a way of memorizing the scale when first learning it. I don't think anyone thinks of it that way once they're comfortable with using it.
Damn
Good lord….I suck.😞
These guys are probably saying the same thing to themselves when they see the greats playing. Its not about being the best but enjoying your musical journey and learning to the best of your ability.
Don't be Half-Whole.
😂😂😂