When Woodworkers Question Whether Japanese Hand Saws are Suitable for Hardwoods?
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- Опубликовано: 14 дек 2018
- When do Woodworkers question Whether Japanese Hand Saws are Suitable for Hardwoods?
#woodworkingtools #woodworkers #handsaws
The biggest concerns about using Japanese saws with hardwoods are the possibility of tearing teeth from the blade, bending the teeth, or otherwise damaging the saw and the fear is quite real. Because the saw plate is much thinner, it is easy to understand that it will probably not be as strong as a Western-type saw simply because there is less material.
There is no question that Japanese saws are more fragile and more susceptible to damage than the equivalent Western saws. But the properties that make them so fragile such as the taller tooth shape, the thinner, much harder, and brittle steel, and more acute angles at the cutting tips of each tooth also reduce the load applied to each tooth. The final result is a saw that appears to be at first glance a very fragile design into something that makes sense.
Provided you are careful with a Japanese saw, it should be more than capable of dealing with hardwoods. As long as you make sure your work is adequately secured, you choose a saw appropriate to the task and you allow the saw to work at its own speed and do not force it, a Japanese saw will serve you well, and it should remain sharp for a lot longer into the bargain.
The above applies to traditional design Japanese saws, and if you are fortunate enough to be able to purchase one, then it would be a wise choice to choose a hardwood-specific saw. Hardwood saws have teeth where the edges are shaped with less acute cutting tips, sacrificing some of the sharpness to gain durability.
Replaceable blade Japanese saws let you get the advantages of Japanese saws along with a softer, more robust plate, harder and longer-lasting working edges, and a much cheaper price. If you accidentally hurt one, it’s less of a burden to simply replace the blade rather than replace or repair the entire saw. The difference is that replaceable blade saws do not cut as cleanly as a hand made saw will.
► Where to Buy & More Information
Suizan is a brand that sells many kinds of Japanese saws.
Suizan's Site: www.suizan.net/
► They also sell on Amazon:
RYOBA (Japanese Saw): amzn.to/2SxowrG
DOZUKI (Japanese Dovetail Saw): amzn.to/2VmME1Q
KATABA (Single Edge) Pull Saw: amzn.to/2NM7jK5 ► Become a member of this channel to get access to perks:
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Хобби
I entirely agree that Japanese saws are more fragile and more susceptible to damage than the equivalent Western saws. But the properties that make them so fragile such as the taller tooth shape, the thinner, much harder and brittle steel and more acute angles at the cutting tips of each tooth also reduce the load applied to each tooth.
you are careful with a Japanese saw, it should be more than capable of dealing with hardwoods. As long as you make sure your work is adequately secured, you choose a saw appropriate to the task and you allow the saw to work at its own speed and do not force it, a Japanese saw will serve you well.
One important detail missed in the video was that the reason Japanese saws can be thinner and lighter is that they cut on the pull stroke rather than the push stroke, which means that while the saw is cutting the blade is in tension on a Japanese saw rather than in compression in a European saw. This is the reason European saws need to be thicker and stiffer is to resist buckling while the saw is being pushed. since it is cutting at this time, while a Japanese saw only needs to be stiff enough to not buckle as it is slid forward before the next pulling (and cutting) stroke.
One thing that I'd love to see improved in these videos is translating more of the Japanese subtitles on the video. Without these translated it's not clear what the purpose of a lot of the manufacturing stages is. I suspect finding a European saw with a manufacturing process as labour intensive as the one shown for the Japanese saw would be more or less impossible. I'm pretty sure affordable Japanese saws are not made like this either though.
Have used them frequently in my furniture shop its all about the dound the make when its cutting like it should uou will here the saws song singing to you its a steady consistent tune if it changes your messing up not the saw .
good tools
I've used a Japanese saw for years in gunstock making because the finer teeth tend not to ever get any end grain tearing.
Agreed, more movement less *pushing*, it's a saw not a chisel.
Imagine what they could make if the workshop had lights!
It’s probably so they can see the color temp of the glowing hot metal when taken out of the forge better.. (a keen eye for which is crucial to the artisanal blacksmith)
Just like the 28 generations before them used to make 'em!
😂
@@ArtOfficialKreations that's exactly why
Imagine how advanced this people are when it comes to technology and still valued hand craftsmanship what a respect
There is absolutely nothing about cutting hardwoods in this video. It's just a description of the saws, and then someone making them by hand.
Clickbait titles have become a means to give your video more clicks than it deserves......
Recently, it hit a critical point where, if you don't clickbait your title, you don't get new viewers because the algorithm doesn't see as many clicks on your video as it sees on others. The other video's end up in a viewers feed and not yours.
It used to be so that the title was the shortest possible summary of the content. Nowadays on youtube the title is just a means to rope a viewer in and is more and more disconected from the actual content.
@@DreadX10 I downvote all clickbait titles
@@fiver-hoo Unfortunately, a downvote also counts as click. RUclips algorithm counts interactions with a video, new comments rank highest, reactions on comments comes next, then the upvotes/downvotes, then the fact you clicked on the video-link. The best one can do is nothing and exit the video before it is done.
Literally, nobody asks that question.
maybe just not anymore
"Literally, nobody asks that question."
That's good, because this video didn't answer it.
This is the best saw. I use mine everyday. Use it correctly and it will serve you for along time.
Beautiful saws, but the folks comparing these to "Western Saws" mass produced are comparing apples to oranges.
Most folks compare mass produced Japanese saws to mass produced Western saws though. Of course for each type of saw there are specialist companies and real artisans who manufacture some high quality hand made ones. You just won't find those in the DIY shops but at best a small tool shop who values selling good products.
Comparing apples and oranges is totally fine, if not as to taste then sure as to nutrition.
There is no reason why a mass produced saw couldn't be just as good as a handmade one... The main issue is that due to the demand for cheap saws, the mass produced ones often lack good quality control.
However saws such as those from the Silky brand, with precision ground teeth and hollow ground blade with no set are incredibly smooth and leave an exceptional finish, the crosscut surfaces they leave are better than if you sanded them.
Get a cheap "Dewalt"-"Irwin" pull-saw and use it properly. I'll get through hard woods in ten strokes what'll take you fifty using a hand-made English saw. And I'll have 50%-70% less saw-marks to show for it
If you are cutting giant tree you need western style, everywhere in Asia we use western style saw over japanese which are finer but doesn't cut too deep
I bought an inexpensive Japanese saw from Tilgear in the UK some years ago and have used it exclusively. It took a very short time to work out how to use it and has served me well.
They are my weapon of choice for fine cabinetry work. I love these saws and have used them since the '80s.
It's amazing to watch old fashion techniques in action. So much better quality then what 99% of us buy at stores -- mass production = garbage in a few years.
Well said, I appreciate it!
I agree unfortunately the majority of people can't afford to purchase high quality hand made items like this and those that can don't really need such quality tools ( generally speaking) so the demand for the product doesn't support the trade of creation.
I find that my pull saws actual cut harder woods much better than softer woods
A Japanese carpenter RUclipsr was saying in his program that saw used to be the most expensive tools to maintain that he used fortune on as it requires frequent adjustments. But nowadays he uses mass produced throwaways because there are not enough technician left to do the proper maintenance and they are so expensive because of it.
I am sure all the experience shared here are with mass produced ones but still it’s a pleasure. Japanese saw cutting experience is completely different from western tools especially nowadays with all these power tools we can enjoy Japanese saw with proper jobs with maximum pleasure. Very nice.
glad you like it!
I agree about the maintenance on the hand made saws. I have one hand made pull saw that requires sharpening and tooth set after about 10 hours of use. It is a joy to use and cuts better than the mass produced pull saw I have, but the sharpening and set takes me about 3 hours. Mass produced ones are definitely cheaper to use if you value your time and cut quality in my opinion is only about 10% less in a mass produced one than a hand made one.
Yes, "大工の正やんShoyan"
ruclips.net/video/tLykIuJQbO4/видео.html
at1:18
The care he brings is like that of making knife blades 👏
I got a japanese saw 10 years ago since then my collection of fine old Distons are reduced to ornaments.
I'm blown away by the old world craftsmanship and cannot believe how much hammer shaping goes into one of these. Master craftsmen.
I'm glad you like it!
Nice video to see Japanese craftsmen making the saw👌 during the years i have increasingly appreciated the use of Japanese saws
Thank you very much!
Amazing skills
Japanese saws have a huge advantage over european saws when it comes to longevity:
They operate on the pull. This means the saw is under tension during the actual cut and thus kept straight.
Saws cutting on the push experience compression und bow out, making the saw bend with every cut, especially when the saw gets stuck or you misalign it in the cut.
A japanese saw can still get bent by inexperienced woodworkers when they misalign the cut (pull it out of the workpiece in an angle), but they only get bent at that angle of misalignment.
European saws that get misaligned and thus stuck will get bent violently due to the compressive force.
WOW, Good Point!!
@@WoodworkingEnthusiasts its the reason the japanese can make their saws as thin as they are in the first place. european saws that thin almost always have a back bracing to keep them straight under compression.
Once again, this fascinating video proves that Japanese craftsmen are more like artists, as they turn the act of making a saw blade into a work of art.
Yes, I totally agree that using Japanese saws with care, and working at its own speed and weight will make your works done with great efficiency.
Where does this video address the question in the title?
Simply beautiful.
Столько труда потрачено на одну ножовку. Она прямо обязана пилить всё подряд в течении 20лет. Желаю удачи.
Anyone know where I can find the original video?
These Japanese saws are the very best. If you pick one up, try to cut a piece of oak with it and destroy it.. you should have learned how to use it properly first. No pressure, many strokes. That is the key to a perfect cut every time.
Enjoyed your video and gave it a Thumbs Up
Notice that the men doing this painstaking work are all working at their own pace, with skill born of long practice. The Japanese culture places value on doing any job to the best of your ability and, while I don't think every single saw of this type is made in this way, they are still worlds different to the mass produced handsaws of the western world. These tools cost more for a very good reason.
Only 2 traditiinal sawsmiths left in JapN now.. Heiji and Takaguchi-san..,very very $$$$
Very few tools are made anywhere in the world by hand using individual makers, regardless of what culture you are looking at the main production of tooling is fully automated and very cost effective. A $1,200 hand plane really is amazing to use, but it is not ten times better than a $120 version - same with any cutting tool. A $35 saw cuts almost as well as a $350 one, but it is not cost effective for most people to pay ten times the price for tooling that cannot return much more in practical output in the shop - longevity may be longer with the high quality tooling, but not ten times... I love high end tools just like I love high end reels and cars, sadly without the finances to afford many of these I must be happy with just the occasional treat for personal satisfaction...
clean and precision cut..enough :P
All I use them on is hardwoods and I don't own a western style saw. Havent had a problem yet and they last a long long time'. I'm still using the first one o bought 7yrs ago.
!!! TOP Masters
Thanks for the video! As soon as I discovered there were saws that cut on the pull stroke I never used one that had a push stroke as it is much smarter and much more energy efficient. Why narration get replaced by horrible music? Best of luck!
sorry for the hassle!
Narration assumes we all want the same language no?
Used these for yonks. Now there everywhere. Great stuff
Okay...what's the timestop for them putting the teeth on the blade? Am I just repeatedly missing it (I've bad eyes, so it's possible) or did they simply not show it?
Mirozen
4:49
@@keirfarnum6811 Thank you! I think I missed it because I was watching for one of the craftsman to do it, when it was only the machine cutting the teeth. Thanks for providing that timestop!!!
@Mirozen also at 5:00 the rough punched saw is fixed in a wood vise and filed to shape with a feather file, then taken out of the vise and set with a hammer, then jointed and finished filed - hon metate. Most of the work --- if all the work that went into making a saw were shown on a video, it would be hours.
Good Lord....the only thing I use Japanese saws on are hardwoods, and I mean HARD WOODS at times. Like Bubinga, Shedua, Gaboon Ebony, Katalox, etc. Only put downward pressure on the pull, and easy slide forward, that's the full user's manual. How is the premise of this video even a question? If you think Japanese pull-saws are too fragile you're a caveman with tennis elbow from your "superior" English-tooth saws.
Btw, there are also Japanese files with tooth geometries that cut only on the push, and polish on the pull.
Along with the brilliant Shinto file, none of which could I live without.
So, are suitable for Hardwoods? Question is still unanswered. Do the sawteeth, that are set for soft wood, cut the hard woods at acceptable speed? How fast they will become dull on european oak? Searching internet for two years and haven't seen yet a single japanese ripcut saw with teeth set for hardwoods.
What is the name of the business that is making the saws? Specifically what workshop do these craftsmen work in?
how do they keep such a thin blade from warping when quenched?
right after the quench while still hot they but them in a press to cool down
@Elgin Rose i would think the covered tank was for tempering. removing a lot of the brittleness while still been hardened.
this is alec steele and in this video he explain it really well ruclips.net/video/ufeyD-Rohs0/видео.html
It warps..
@Chris Yu Bob is right, but they do warp, and are then flattened on an anvil using various hammers.
I Saw more tools , everyday. Thanks
You are welcome
Super Arbeit
عمل رائع
That cannot be how they are still made
They make thin western saws too. They have a spine, usually brass, and are called a back, tendon or dovetail saw. The genius of the Asian saws is the pull stroke putting the blade under tension, and the tooth design (which DOES need modified for OPTIMUM performance in rosewood, ebony, Purple Heart or Lilac.)
The genius of western saws is they figured out a nice handle :)
WOW Good Point!!!!
👍👍
You get what you put into it and Japanese joinery is the apex in fine joinery.
If only only we had a society half as closed as japan. They hardly let any foreigners in at all. They do have really small dingalingis so I guess they kind of have to run their society that way.
I really like Japanese saws but have never been about to keep the cut straight after about 3 inches. Once the blade starts to stray off the line it is impossible (for me) to steer it back again. So I use them for only short, fine cuts.
@David Clark It needs to be straightened and flattened -- by someone who has been doing it for awhile, possibly set and sharpened also. search daikudojo+metate
Also, if you're trying to hit a specific cut angle, build a jig at said angle that acts like a 'saddle' over the workpiece and embed at least one magnet in the face of its 'fence'. Your bio-mechanical errors in technique will suddenly disappear.
Source: we've done exactly this in my shop for 90°, 45°,14°, 7°, etc. You can make the 'foot' one-sided and clamp it on, or get fancy with threaded inserts and star-knobs so that the jig doesn't care about stock thickness.
When Hardwoods Question Whether Japanese Handsaws are Suitable for Woodworkers?
I absolutely adore my Japanese saw.
Japanese do not cut nails with their saws thus they do not need a club for a hand saw
Well put....typical hand-saws are for your average carpenter, zero-set pull-saws are for actual woodworkers. As are chisels that don't look like Dave Letterman's front teeth.
The expensive saws may be made like that but the small one I bought from Amazon although stated made in Japan can't have been made like that - would have cost a fortune rather than the 15 quid I paid.
Just ordered a larger saw for about twice the price but still doubt it will have been hand made. Great video though.
I have 3 or 4 of those. It was most likely induction hardened, which as I understand, cannot be sharpened. After it's dull, it's useless. A throwaway saw. This is why I just bought some Japanese saws on ebay. Hopefully they're authentic, because I plan on trying to file them to keep them sharp.
A saw is a saw. Doesn't matter where it was made. It's about using the correct saw for the cut. If you use the "wrong" saw, break out the plane and or the sand paper
Your saying not as good but don't want to come right out and say they as not as good for hardwoods is what it sounds like to me
Enjoyed your video and gave it a Thumbs Up
They are awesome for hardwoods. They far outperform western saws, in every way possible.
Thay take pride in what they make respect to them
I don't understand the question. Do people actually believe the Japanese say to themselves "Pack it up boys, its hard wood"?
Pick the right tool for the right job. Use the right tool with the right technique. And your job job will be done right.
yeah, Totally!
Thank you for your beautiful video, as a thank you here are "2 secrets concerning the teeth of Japanese saw blades:
1) one tooth out of two must have, like the teeth of human beings, 5 faces,
but out of the 5 faces, 3 must be filed with a thin file to pass between the teeth.
2) to check if the teeth are filed, put the blade of the saw between your eyes and the sun, three faces of each tooth must shine
Thanks for sharing!
This video is as ancient as boomer goes...
IMO Japanese saws are so much better than most western style saws for precision cuts because of how much thinner the blades are and usually have more teeth for a better quality and precise cut! Western saws are the braun and japanese saws are the brain so to speak! It has definitely changed my life! My saws are at the low budget end so I can only imagined how much better the high end saws can be! I will own some top quality saws as woon as I can afford it lol
Well, Great point!!!
Ну, и сколько стоит такая пила как на видео . Цифра с пятью знаками? Ничего общего с тем ширпотребом , который может позволить себе большинство из нас.
The western saw only has one real advantage and that is these pullsaws cover the cut line in sawdust in certain situations... no biggie a little huff n puff fixes it :)
Good Point!!
I like the pistol grip tote handles of western style saws better. It is more comfortable to hold them. You can keep those straight handles. They're for the birds.
These regular japaneae saws are nice for small wood working. If you wanna slay trees. Use japanese silky saws.
Any saw is suitable if a carpenter have good skills
And those skills would be to cut proud of the actual line so you can sand those 1/16"-deep saw marks out of every joint cut you make. That's IF you recognize beforehand that your joints will be garbage if you don't. Too many will just hit their sloppy joinery with some putty after the fact.....and proceed to charge extra for being "hand-made".
when i tap my saws with my fingernail, they ring like a bell, all my push saws have no ring
Good Point, LOL!!
They are harder (as in Rockwell) and thinner...
ur push saws have a warble. like the sound of lightning. have u never heard anyone play a western saw?
Yeeeessssssss.....and that is the only true measure of quality?
Even if some did ask that question they obviously don't realise that the Japanese have been the masters of woodwork for centuries !!
Thank you very much!
One day! If the craftsmen are still producing... I will be able to place an order, for a set of originally produced carpenters tools.. they will all be gone, if the day should come😯
Those are designed for Japanise peoples, gently and patient.
but can you sharpen them yourself?
You can indeed providing the blade is not one intended to replaced. The replaceable blades are impulse hardened so you shouldn’t be sharpening the teeth. To sharpen a traditional blade you need a feather edged file and the know how - which I don’t have😎. However, most decent replaceable blades are intended to last 5-7 years if you use them properly, and new blades being generally half price of a new saw replacing them is probably the better option….unless you wish to learn the skill of course 😊
I have both European and Japanese saws. I use only the Japanese saws for fine joinery. No comparison.
Yankee Axe & Tool Co. you can also use a hacksaw with blade for cutting steel, the cut is as if you sanded, it takes longer to cut tho
I've been looking into getting one for my wood shop..
This video did nothing to convince me or not.
No actual information is given that answers any of the real questions wood workers might have..
So...
Thanks for nothing I guess?
when you show me how they made these a 1000 years ago il be impressed !
'Easier'. People had more common talents like these guys, on more a congratulative gratitude for quality. If you were to look into History how it doesn't fit the puzzle pieces of logic. Yet, when you think of how corporations greed technology that has been persistent through time, then you will understand better on how and why companies will (literally) kill to place their names on patients. Remember how J.P.Morgan shut down Nicola Tesla with his free energy concept? Same thing, nothin new is under the Sun. Basically, there is certain technology being suppressed, unless there can be a price tag attached.
Human experiences go through eras, and our current one is the most nostalgic. There once was a time where life was simple.
@@ROBST3RR Okay, live a life being a judgemental asshat. The joke is on you.
@@ROBST3RR for what? You're making a deal out of nothing. If you only understood history and manufacturing practicing of resources... Go back to Wal-Mart, kid.
@@ROBST3RR Is that you're goto insult? You clearly have no intellectual-mind. Or you want to sound dumb as possible? Chances are you flunked even with ADHD meds.
Please do not debate those who can pluck the feathers off of you.
@@ROBST3RR Nope. But keep flapping those gums, someone someday very may give you a rude awakening. People have their ways.
I prefer my lie Neilsen tenon saw to my Lie Neilsen Japanese pull saw. It keeps bending near the handle and the saw dust obscures the marking.
First off, try buying a Japanese saw from the actual Japanese. You might change your opinion. Second, you may be surprised to know that you have a built-in dust-blower if you posess lips and a pair of lungs. Third, the 'kinking' you get near the handle on the push is a sign you're exerting far too much force on the push. Hence, people calling them PULL-saws.
Nokojiry)))
It's all about the right tool for the right work (and the right wood).
titlegore deluxe.
As with anything Japanese the weebs will always defend their beloved piece of metal while slagging off those *uncultured western* tools 😂
They each have their own strengths and weaknesses. Know how to use them and you'll find that they are perfect in their own way
1080p my ass
in this day and age a mechanical voice shouldn't be on a video
A japanese tool and craftsmanship with north-american country song 😆
Who cares.....merica number 1
I gave a thumbs down because the narration was computer generated. For that short amount of talking they should have hired someone to talk.
sorry for the hassle
strange how they use western sheet steel,guillotine,power hammer,hand sheers,grinders,tooth forming machines,electric oven.
basically everything western to make a japanese pull saw
They do not use western sheet steel. They use Hitachi steel. And their industry tools are mainly Japanese. ...might look western, but most likely arent.
jadekayak01 the Japanese have been forging steel for a long long time.....
I'll echo maezzee's reply.....buy a high-end forged "Damascus" Japanese chisel (can't remember their name for it) and see how often you DON'T have to sharpen it. Those folks have their cutting tool metallurgy down cold.
@@robwoodring9437 and you have been suckered into the "damascus" bullshit industry.
If you really studied damascus(or more correctly,pattern welded or layered steels) you would know it is only a SOLUTION for a technically inferrior steel making process(couldnt get the charge hot enough to fully melt and make a homogeneous steel)
Layered steels only excell in cutting FLESH due to the micro serations in the finished piece.
For TOOLS you cant beat a perfectly manufactured homogeneous steel.
For metal working there are NO damascus tools(with the exception of the japanese tool for rough shaving of forged billets)
I suggest YOU make quite a few pieces of damascus steel and then get back to me.
I am not a highly accomplished smith but have a few pieces under the belt.
@@missionron and where did they get the knowledge to make tgese "japanese" machines
MACHINES were introduced to Japan and the refined them.
SHEETS of steel are not a JAPANESE historical product.
They DO make some of the best steels in the world today but it is all in an industrial manner.
JAPANESE couldnt even produce a properly melted ingot of steel pre europen contact.
ALL thier steel produced was made in a tatar furnace which only produced a rough lump of steel that hadnt been properly smelted.
The UK and Europe surpassed this method hundreds of years ago.
thumbs down, click bait this has nothing to do with the title.
dont get me wrong i would have watched it if it was titled "How Japanese saw are made"
But seriously NOTHING TO DO WITH THE TITLE.