I just received my Hornady tools that you're using. I'm stoked that I found this video and have already watched it multiple times. Well done sir. Thanks a million.
I’ve come to depend on your videos as the most informative and well presented on RUclips. You are a methodical and excellent teacher. Thank you for the effort you put into your presentations.
been reloading pistol for a while, but just started rifle, this Ogive thing has been haunting me, you Sir are the first person to explain it, in a way that made perfect since to me , I feel much more comfortable about how to set my dies now that I watch this. Thank You !
Thank you!! I watched 3 different videos with people using this tool and I knew that something wasn't right. My intuition was that the headspace on my fire formed brass will most likely be longer than Hornady's in all instances. You are the only one who explained how to use this tool the right way. Well done.
+Steven Peters You're welcome Steven! That's exactly why I did this particular video. I also watched several videos of people using the OAL gauge and just had to shake my head in wonder at how so many people didn't understand the underlying concepts. Thanks for watching!
Great explanation but I had one problem that drove me and my son nuts when trying to measure with the dial caliper, bullet comparator and OAL gauge. We could not get consistent readings even in the hundredths. So after fussing with the OAL gauge for a couple of days my son figured out that the pushrod in the OAL gauge has a flat part that must be positioned correctly when measuring for overall length. It's obvious when you look at it and realize that's why the rod is shaped the way it is. Also I'd advise "feathering" the pushrod into the lands, not pushing or forcing in any way. Thanks for another great video Hornady Loader!
Excellent video. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain the use of the Hornady OAL gauge and comparator. Your diagrams really drive the point home and make it very easy to understand. I am new to reloading and have found your videos have added the confidence I've needed to move forward with this new hobby. I'm looking forward to your future videos. Thank you again.
+cjmcnaulty That's great! I love hearing that my videos are helping out! And welcome to the brotherhood of reloaders. It's a great hobby and I hope you come to enjoy it as much as I do.
This is the best video I have every seen on this topic. It is what you don't know that bites you and I never considered the difference in head space between my fired reloaded brass and the modified case.
+Anthony Owen Thanks Anthony. You're absolutely right, I've been bitten by that particular malady myself more than a few times. After watching some of the other videos on this device, I figured I'd better do my own video and get the word out. Thanks again, lot's more to come so stay tuned!
I have competition dies and I am glad I watched this video before measuring and seating my bullets. I am going to start 30,000 back and work my way up.
I have watched many videos on the subject. This is the best one. when I first tried to use the oal gauge I kept getting different readings. Then I realized the modified case was loose. Once I tightened it no problems.
Great information. I've been using the Hornady OAL gage along with the Hornady Headspace gage for several years and your videos pointed out some errors I have been making with both tools.Many thanks!
+Jim Goodel You're welcome Jim! To be honest, I made the same errors until I sat down and did the math one day. It was one of those moments of epiphany for me. Thanks for watching!
I just want to thank you for helping to clear a lot of this up for me. You have saved me from much headaches. I have not actually started the reloading process but, I have been accumulating tools & gauges along with presses and other items needed.
Doug Brown Thanks Doug! I'm kinda proud of this one. I'm not much of an artist but I couldn't think of any way to really illustrate how these devices work without putting together a PowerPoint animation. I'm happy you liked it! Hornady Loader
Detailed instruction gives me the confidence to expand my reloading skills. I started with Hornady and this video supports my decision. Thank you HornadyLoader for this video and all your other presentations.
TIP: for the Hornady bullet comparator; I just measured 3 different 223 bullets of different weights and manufacturers and found a total of CBTO variance of some .030. All bullets must have identical O'Gives. Then I removed the plastic plunger and filed down the rounded end into a more pointed end and remeasured a 3 bullets again @ 8 each and found the new total variance of the same bullets to be .010. In two of the bullets the CBTO variance was less than 5%. Very accurate now. My conclusion is the bullet bases are not 100% perpendicular to the concentricity of the bullet and the plastic plunger end is too large to get an accurate reading on a small point from the base of the bullets. This was all done in a brand-new JC Custom barrel just purchased and not installed. I wish Hornady would install a smaller metal pointed end on their plunger for a little extra money.
along with your program you are great at explaining ways to do things clearly and to the point. which makes it easy to listen to. thank you for all the info. Michael
Found the same issues. My fireformed neck sized stuff figured quite a bit longer oal than with modified case. Love the comparator. You are awesome. Don't know why you don't have thousands of views. Thanks!
aracp Thanks! I just started doing these videos in February because I watched a few reloading videos and was appalled at the lack of information and/or general misinformation that many of them contained. There are some good channels out there, but I most fail to mention some of the pitfalls and downright dangerous situations that can occur during the reloading process. Something as simple as a sticky balance beam scale or getting the OAL of a cartridge wrong can seriously injure or kill someone. Thanks again! Lots more to come! Hornady Loader
aracp Oh, I also wanted to mention...for $15.00 (includes return shipping), Hornady will take two of YOUR fire formed cases and do the modifications on them so you'll have a modified case that matches YOUR firearm and can be used with the OAL gauge. Hornady Loader
HornadyLoader, this was one truly awesome, educational video. Detailed, patient, methodical. Just excellent. And just what I needed! It was particularly cool that you showed the WRONG way to set up the overall length gauge. I knew when you started that part of the video that that's EXACTLY how I would have tried to set it up the first time, and it would have taken me 10 minutes to figure out what I'd done wrong. Count me as a new subscriber. Well done!
Great video never thought about my cases being slightly different than the modified case from Hornady. I will measure the headspace on my fire formed cases more closely now. Also never knew that you could use the 2 different sides on the comparator to make sure the bullet went in straight. Thank you for sharing
I have all the tools, and watched a bunch of videos on the procedure. Only one other divulges your analysis and consideration of the differences between the Hornady modified case dimensions and the case that is to become the final project. I have to say that your rendition is clear and precise, giving reloaders a true in depth base to build on. I've been reloading for 51 years and always based my measurements on OAL case head to the tip as provided by the reloading manuals. Thank You for your work and presentation.
Again, excellent video. I thought I knew how to use the OAL gauge. Problem is I didn't give much thought on thumbscrew placement at the body. I learned something useful. Thanks.
Excellent video... From now on, I'll be taking my measurements from the case head to the ogive of the bullet with the comparator installed on mt calipers. Thanks for a job well done....
Mate you explained that perfectly,i reload myself for competition.I am going through exactly the same process(bullet jump,powder loads...etc)bullet weights,case weights.....what amazes me is you can have bullets out of the same batch and they will vary ever so slightly,my 308,223,6.5 are nail drivers at 700mtrs.....good on ya
mickycricket Thanks Mickey! I was surprised that no one else seems to mention the variance between the modified cases and the cases that you actually use to reload. I've also noticed the same variance you have in the bullets themselves...even within the same lot. Some manufacturers are better than others, but you have to keep a close eye on tolerances regardless. Good luck with your competition! I've been competing for years...wish I was a better shot, lol. It seems my son Cody is the marksman in this family. Hornady Loader
HornadyLoader Thanks mate ,i hope cody goes far in the competion world(he has a great head start with you as his mentor)i am building a 6.5 creedmore at the moment with a peirce action with fluted bolt,a pacnor shute (fluted)custom barrel tuner,macmillan tasmanian black wood thumb hole stock,14x42x56 nf scope(davies trigger 2 stage)made in australia ,took out the single stage(timmney)should have someting shooting (great)i'm an ozzie....i will subsribe right now......GOOD LUCK CODY....MAKE EVERY SHOT AN........ X
Awesome video you're the first person that I've seen actually explained the entire tool set up. I learned a little something. I have the same set a bullet comparator and overall length gauges you have and a Hornady caliper. The only part that I would have added was the simple fact that Hornady their caliper has extra thick Jaws that hold the bullet comparator and headspace gauges much tighter and aligned much better. So a recommendation to all reloader if you're going to use the Hornady equipment use a Hornady digital caliper as well so that everything fits the way it's supposed to. The Hornady digital caliper and the headspace gauge along with the bullet comparator is all available on amazon.com. as well as the overall length gauges. Great video keep up the good work. Echo
This is the first video of yours I have watched and found it very helpful. The video, your instructions, and the diagrams were all excellent. Thank you!
+shoot2survive Thanks! I don't have the right tools to tap and drill the heads of my cases so I send mine out to Hornady to do it. Someday I'll get some decent tools in the shop. lol. Thanks for watching!
I understand what you are teaching here and I agree that for me as a beginner 30 thousand is a good place to start. I have all the measuring equipment and am practicing with the tools getting a feel for them. Loading for a 721 Remington .270.
great job explaining. When I first started reloading I thought these tools were a waste of time and money, now I won't load for any of my rifles without them. I thought my seating depths were accurate just using calipers but once I got the bullet comparator, they all were varied slightly. Now everything is precise for each rifle...must have tools for precision shooting
mojo jojo Hi mojo jojo, I know what you mean. When I first started loading, all I had was a press, some dies, a powder measure and a caliper. As I learned more and more about reloading, I upgraded my equipment and now I feel the same as you...if you want to print clovers on paper, you need to go the extra mile. Thanks for watching!
0321 jarhead Thanks Jarhead! I appreciate that! I try to be as in-depth as possible and to include info that doesn't seem to be mentioned on other videos.
Very thorough tutorial on the use of this device. I would add one comment. Your lighting could be improved on to make the video more detailed. I am glad that I found your channel, thank you for your efforts.
I really like your video on this, I use the stony point gage all the time. But I never gave it a thought about the case that comes with the gage verses the military brass that I use for prairie dog hunting. But how or what kind of a gage can you use to measure the head space difference between the two. It would be nice if you can point us in that direction. I would like to thank you so much for showing this method on how to measure properly, and bring this to everyones attention. Thanks so much, I think that this will shock most serious reloaders. In other words guy's really pay attention to this guy, and watch it twice if you don't understand, because remember, SAFTY ALWAYS COMES FIRST !!
Hornady will tap and thread and enlarge the neck of your fire formed brass i will be sending mine out soon.....thanks for the video it was very useful.
Exceptional video, great diagrams/pictures, extremely helpful. One question; from reading the Hornady manual they ask that if you want, you can send in 2 fired (fire formed) brass to them however they stress to NOT resize the fired brass. With this being said, how can you find the other unknown length not the given .799 length? And, what or how would you determine the OAL/COAL? Thanks again, awesome video.
Dave the overall length gauge is much more accurate on a fire formed piece of brass because it comes from your particular rifle chamber. Hornady simply takes your to once fired cases that have not been resized or touched and they drill out the primer pocket and run a tap to tap the threads needed by the overall length gauge so that it will install on it. When you're using brass that has not been fire formed out of your chamber there's a little bit of Wiggle inside your chamber. Most competition shooters will neck size their fire formed brass so that there is less misalignment between the bullet and the throat into your rifling. Fire formed brass that is simply next sized 4 bullet retention usually two thousands of an inch will be more accurate then a fired piece of brass that has been bumped back on the shoulder two thousands of an inch. What you're doing is setting up for precision rifle work and the once fired brass is a duplicate of the internal diameters of your particular rifle chamber. It's just going to be more accurate overall when determining overall length to your rifling. Hope it helps, Echo.
Hi Dave, Yup, that's the best way to do it! If you have a fire-formed case modified by Hornady for you, you can get the second measurement the same way as in the video. Just take the OAL as measured by the OAL gauge and subtract the headspace of the case Hornady has modified for you (as measured by the Hornady headspace gauge). Hornady Loader
HornadyLoader Sir, thanks a lot for that educational video. Is there any disadvantage in using the generic "Modified Cases" Hornady sells for the O.A.L. gauge rather than a fire-formed case (which has been modified by Hornady)? I am half a world away, so sending a few brass cases to Hornady would be impractical.
Karamojo7mm Hi there, there's nothing wrong with using the Hornady Modified cases. Just be aware that it is probably a different length than your brass and apply the formula I use in the video and you'll be good to go. Thanks!
HornadyLoader Sir, thank you for your quick response! It's highly appreciated. I bet you're bringing Hornady some additional business through your clear demonstration of how tools and gauge are used properly. I'll order these gauges. I am sure I will revert to this video in the future.
+HornadyLoader Excellent video, especially for a newbie like myself ... I just got into the hobby about 3 years ago. I just picked up my Hornady Overall Length Gauge - Straight Model late October from one of my gun shops I go to; and I have my 4 Hornady Modified Cases (.30-06 Springfield, .303 British, .30-30 Winchester and .32 Winchester Special) on order, along with the Hornady Overall Length Gauge - Curved Model thru him. I've been looking into the L. E. Wilson's Headspace Cartridge Gauges for my above mentioned calibers to compliment this tooling. Is this a good choice; or should I invest in the Hornady Headspace Gauge instead? I would not have considered the headspace issue of the actual case (Full Sized or Neck Sized) being used. Very good point you made in this video. I wish Hornady mention this point in their Overall Length Gauge instructions. I'll be viewing this video again and again to assist in my reloading process. My other question is, what size of Hornady Bullet Comparator set should I purchase, considering what calibers I already have now? I can get the smaller set, which will work for the calibers I'm shooting now, from Bass Pro Shops in Moncton, New Brunswick. Would I be better off with the bigger set later down the road? Bare in mind, I'm trying to anticipate my needs for tooling 5 - 10 years down the road.Looking forward in seeing the rest of your videos, especially those on the Hornady L-N-L Classic Kit Press Set and other Hornady equipment.
+HornadyReloader If you could humor my on a technique I came up with(out of necessity) for my particular application. I seem to have been having issues with the OAL gage. When inserting tool and plunging the bullet for o.a.l I would get what I can only describe as run-out in the mod'ed case neck. This required me to exert a significant amount of force to push the bullet onto the lands. So I figured out that I needed to drop the bullet into the chamber.Then begin to tilt my rifle,listen as the bullet slid home. Then I'd insert the gage/mod'ed case in to the chamber to interface with the bullet. Lock the pushrod down tilt the rifle w/muzzle up to allow gage and bullet to come out. This is where the humor comes in. Can you try this technique and see if you can get consistent readings. Thank You. Mike C.
If anyone is wondering; The straight model will work with an AR10 but it's not ideal. The brass screw will be inside the receiver when the modified cartridge is chambered. You can make it work, but curved might be easier. I read a few reviews of people having consistency issues with the curved model...not sure if true.
Great video. I am just getting into loading pistol ammo, 9mm, and am hoping you will do a video on reloading a rimless pistol cartridge in the near future. Really enjoy your videos.
+robert austin Hi Robert, I'll put that on the queue. I have 4 videos that I'm working on right now but doing a pistol load would be a good idea. I've been concentrating on rifle loads and pistol would be a nice change of pace. Pistol loads are done slightly different as well so it would be a good topic to cover. Thanks!
+Earle BuBar Hi Earle, yup, I probably should have mentioned that in the video. I tend to use terminology that a novice can relate to and sometimes forget to follow up with the correct or common terms. 99% of my videos are not scripted, I usually just turn on the camera and start talking so sometimes I do forget to include some things. Thanks!
0.007 thousands is the SAAMI head space for that cartridge - proves why this tool is worth the money without all the complications. A Go No-Go Gauge is 0.004 - SAAMI Spec is 0.007.
Good insights. You didn't address the issue of the cartridge fitting in the magazine. Some will get an extended magazine or have to load cartridge by hand if it is larger. I am not a seasoned reloader and appreciate your take on advanced techniques. Thanks.
I wonder, Would it be better to have a case that is a once fired in the gun we are loading for ? i.e use a once fired case that has been drilled and tapped for the wonderful Hornady gauge. I am loading for a 7.62x51 but using .308 fired brass...the cases are a bit diff.
I just bought the Hornady equipment so thanks very much indeed for explaining how it works. I have lots of fired shells and when I measured them it appears there are differences in length upto 0.09 milimeters. This consequently means that if one wants the overall lenght to be the same the bullet will be either deeper or not as deep pushed into the shell when reloading ... I wonder, how does this affect the accuracy or doesn't it ? By the way, very best wishes for a prosperous and healthy 2019.
Hornady Loader, first off great video...but have a question regarding the "twist" at the end of you video. So after measuring the OAL of the chamber on my new Howa 6.5 Creed I came up with 2.292" with the SMK 120gr bullet I used. And both the Hornady modified case and the Hornady fire formed cases measured the same headspace at 1.559" using the Hornady headspace gauge...so no need to adjust the actual OAL. However I'm fairly new to reloading and I went and FL resized the fire formed cases which bumped the shoulder back .006", and now the HS is 1.553" (I've since purchased some Redding comp shell holders to ensure I only bump the shoulder back .002"-.003" when FL resizing). Anyhow my question is, since the headspace on the FL resized cases are now .006" smaller at 1.553" is the new OAL of the cartridge 2.286"...and I need to adjust my desired bullet jump from that number now?
George Begonia... HornadyLoader covered every section except this most important aspect of the resizing process. Technically his video is now flawed. He comments that the 799 value remains the same... however it does not if the individual bumps the shoulder on the case. Such as yourself. Something is not right about this video with the difference in the Modified case verses the Fire-formed case. Why not just use the actual fire-formed case and removed the modified case out of the equation. Does not make sense. It seems that HornadyLoader just added an extra step to the equation by using both. Why not just one or the other. Or in this case the better fitting fire-formed case to the rifle.
@@bisonuberti It has nothing to do with the shoulder or how much you decide to bump it. The measurement referred to is from the case base to ogive (CBTO) and it is the bullet seating depth that matters here. If you bump the shoulder back 2-3 thou, then the bullet is seated 2-3 thou less - you are always aiming to get the same CBTO length to ensure your jump is where it needs to be.. Make sense ?
Aside from the headspace issue which is relevant and important, using a smaller bushing than the bore size place the measurement at some 'random' point on the ogive. Using the correct bushing (ie. .30 bushing for a .308 projectile) at least tells you where your rifling starts.
Great video HornadyLoader. I found your video after I purchased a Hornady overall length gauge and a Hornady bullet comparator. I have used a caliber specific Wilson headspace gauge for many moons, so I dropped in a fire formed 30-06 case that had not been sized. It dropped right into the "sweet spot" on the Wilson gauge. Hornady's modified '06 case was visibly higher in the Wilson gauge, meaning to me as you said, there is slight measurement disparity between the two cases in the headspace area.I just ordered a set of Hornady headspace gauges to work with the body housing that came with my Hornady comparator kit. I'll be able to read a fire formed case form my '06 and compare it to the modified case made by Hornady. From there I can do the math and work out the difference on my final seating depth. At least this is my intention....so please let me know if I am thinking this out correctly??? Thanks for a great video!!!
I bought the O.A.L., HEAD COMPARATOR, and BULLET COMPARATOR GAUGES not knowing different die types existed until a about a month ago. I bought a fixed 30-06 and it looks like I can't use any of these tools because I've been looking for a match grade set for a month here and there and can't get my hands on one. I'm going to get one when I find one, but say I only reloaded to SAMMI spec's, will this mess my rifle up over time? I've been under impression to make rifle last longer, need to follow all these steps in video.
Great Video. I wish I would have watched before I starting making a bunch of 300 BLK cases. I understand the concept about the difference between the modified case and the fire formed case. My question is if you have one case with a head space of 1.070 and another with 1.075 but both are trimmed to 1.360 am I still seating the same bullet in those two cases .005th apart or can the be seat same. Can seem to wrap my brain around this one. Thanks for all the videos, you are a wealth of knowledge.
+Jeff Horgan Hi Jeff, great question. Yes, your bullets will end up differing by 0.005" relative to their distance from the rifling. Let's say you set the COAL of both cartridges to 2.225". Use the formula in the video to determine the distance from the datum line where the cartridge will stop based on the headspace of the case to the tip of the bullet. The lower the headspace, the further the cartridge (and therefore the bullet) will go into the chamber.2.225" minus 1.070" is 1.155". 2.225" minus 1.075" is 1.150". So, the bullet in the case with 1.070" headspace will be 0.005" closer to the rifling than the bullet in the case with 1.075" headspace. I used COAL rather than CBTO but the result is the same either way. The trim length is irrelevant for this calculation, the two important values are the headspace and either COAL or CBTO.Thanks for watching and great question!
I assume the OD of the red tube is 5/16", but what is the ID or how thick is the tube wall? Mcmaster Carr offers that tube (.313 OD) in steel with an ID of .183, or .215, and even .243. Making the red tube should be easy, and as for the case, chuck the case in your drill press and clamp the drill bit /tap in your vice and it will drill like it's in a lathe.
I am just getting started in reloading and this video was VERY HELPFUL in clearing up some critical issues for me. Now I am not and never will be a competitive shooter but do want to improve my accuracy with the best ammo I can produce. One question that I do have deals with the natural variation that occurs in the headspace when resizing cases. I am using Dillon Carbide dies to resize .308 cases. I just checked a good size sample and found the headspace to vary from 1.613 to 1.623 where my target was 1.620. Most were in the 1.617 to 1.622 range. My question is do I need to really worry about this and just setup my press to produce rounds with a True OAL based on the 1.620. I think that as long as my Float is adequate to never drop below a safe minimum even with the shorter cases I would be okay? I seem to get myself going in a circle thinking thru this and any help would be appreciated.
Allen Cain Forgot to add that I am loading on a Dillon 650XL using the Dillon Carbide dies and RCBS bullet seating dies with the micrometer dept adjuster attachment and then crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.
Allen Cain Hi Allen, SAAMI standards call for a minimum headspace of 1.630 and a max of 1.640. The actual values are unimportant since you are measuring on a different datum line than SAAMI. The important thing to take away from this is that there is a difference of 0.010" between min and max. Your measurements of 1.613 to 1.623 represents a difference of 0.010" which is exactly what is called for in the SAAMI standards so you should be fine. The fact that the majority of your cases are within 0,005" makes me feel even more confident that you are in good shape. I would invest in a L.E. Wilson headspace cartridge gauge for .308 Winchester (Midway USA part #880646) which will help you determine if your cases are within the SAAMI standard. Of course SAAMI standards are designed to allow a cartridge to fit in ANY firearm of a particular caliber so even if your cartridges aren't exactly SAAMI, the more important measurement is what YOUR firearm works best with. The other thing I would work on is to find out why there is such a relatively large difference (if you can call 1/100th of an inch large) in your cases coming out of your sizing die. Is there some play in the die, ram, or shell holder/plate? Check that each piece involved is tight and has no play in it. I am not familiar with the inner workings of a Dillon press so I can't be more specific.
Thanks for the excellent feedback. I do have a Dillon case gage and all of the cartridges checked ok. I had trimmed them all after sizing. And I will be checking for any loose points in the press to see if I can tighten the range of dimensions.
Do the bushings of the Headspace Comparator also fit into the adapter of the Bullet Comparator? So when owning the Bullet Comparator i must only purchase a fitting Headspace Comparator Bushing?
I started reloading about three months ago. Presently, I only do .308 Winchester. It seems like the more I learn, the more I find out there is more I need to learn. I just gauged my Remington 700 with 175 gr. Sierra Match Kings and, my numbers were quite different. My True OAL, after subtracting the 0.030", was 2.312", which seems pretty long but, I measured everything at least three times. I wouldn't have thought the 178 gr. A-Max would be that different. I tried again with 168 gr. Sierra Tipped Match Kings and, my result was a True OAL of 2.285", not that far off the 175 SMK. This video was VERY informative and, I learned a lot from it. Now, I have to ask, do you crimp your rounds at all? It doesn't seem like there is much bullet inside the neck.
Dear Hornady Loader, @ 19:20 of the video, you reference a .799 measurement of datum point to ogive as being and remaining constant. I've spoken with the folks at Hornady and have come to the conclusion that this value you've assigned as remaining constant does not stay the same. If you measure head space on a fire formed case (base of stamp to datum point on shoulder), but then resize the case and bump the shoulder back...you are essentially changing the datum point your headspace gauge will measure at. If you change the datum point, it stands to reason the remaining measurement to the ogive will change with it.
+darren cook Hi Darren, You're measuring two different things. you're measuring the cartridge, not the chamber. For example, I have a coffee cup that is 4 inches tall. It was manufactured that way. If I then put the coffee cup on a coaster that is 1/2" tall, that doesn't mean the coffee cup is now 4 1/2" tall. The measurement from the datum line in the chamber to where the ogive of the bullet will hit the rifling will always be the same as long as you are using that bullet in that firearm. You are correct that if you bump the headspacing back on the cartridge, the measurement from the datum line on the CARTRIDGE to the ogive will change (longer). But since the measurement of the datum line in the CHAMBER to where the ogive of the bullet will hit the rifling remains the same, you will now end up with a cartridge that will jam the bullet's ogive into the rifling, which could cause pressure problems. If you were to use your resized case with the overall length gauge, you'll find that the bullet will need to be seated further in to the case in order to achieve the same desired result, which is to find how far you need to seat the bullet to where it just touches the rifling in the bore. Since the distance from the datum line in the CHAMBER to where the ogive of that same bullet hits the rifling has not changed, you'll find that value to be 0.799" again.
+HornadyLoader please bear with me while I understand this. What I'm having trouble with, is the fact you are measuring the modified case headspace (1.621 from stamp to datum) not chamber headspace from bolt face to datum point on chamber shoulder, and then subtracting that from your 2.420 measured from stamp to ogive (or lands) assuming your bullet has been seated for contact with the lands. The .799 is not a measurement from datum point on the shoulder of "chamber" to the ogive or lands.....it's actually the left-over from the bumped back factory modified case to the lands. In my mind, you're calculating the distance from unfired case shoulder datum point to the lands but assuming in the next example that it was actually a constant measurement of a chamber shoulder point to the lands. I personally use a fire formed modified case but I really want to understand your formula and video. I've enjoyed all of it, with the exception of the method of obtaining your constant measurement. At this point, I can only think the measurement would remain constant if measured using a fire formed case. Hope this makes sense.
+darren cook Hi Darren, no problem. I know it's a bit counter-intuitive. Let's look at it this way. I put the modified case and bullet into the chamber, then move the bullet forward until it touches the lands. At that point in time, the datum line on the case and the datum line of the chamber are at exactly the same point. Everything below that datum line on the case (towards the stamp), is irrelevant. the only measurement we'll look at for this example is the measurement from the datum line of the case/chamber to the ogive of the bullet where it hits the lands. Now, I also have another modified case with completely different headspacing. Remember the headspacing is the stamp to the datum line on the case, which is irrelevant for this example. I use that new case and the same bullet and insert it into the chamber. Now, the datum line on the case and the datum line of the chamber are once again lined up. I move the bullet forward again until it touches the lands. If I were to measure from the datum line of the case/chamber to the point on the ogive where the bullet hits the lands, it will be exactly the same measurement as the other case. Remember, the headspacing is irrelevant since it is BEHIND the datum line and has no bearing on the distance between the datum line of the case/chamber and the point where the bullet hits the lands. Also remember that since I am using the same bullet, it will hit the lands on exactly the same point on the ogive as it did before, since that is entirely a function of the bullet diameter along the ogive. The bullet may be inserted further into the case, or it may be sticking further out from the case, but that's also irrelevant. The only thing that matters is how far it is from the datum line to the ogive where it hits the lands. Believe me, I know how difficult it is to wrap your brain around this, it took me a while to have my epiphany about it as well.
+HornadyLoader First of all thanks for your continued patience. I plan on reading through your last statement again a few times tomorrow to make sure I fully grasp it but thought I'd start with this for this evening. "I know it's a bit counter-intuitive. Let's look at it this way. I put the modified case and bullet into the chamber, then move the bullet forward until it touches the lands. At that point in time, the datum line on the case and the datum line of the chamber are at exactly the same point." Isn't this only true if you are using a fire formed case? In your example, the datum point changes from 1.621 in the factory case to .007 further ahead in the fire formed modified case. The 1.628 can be looked at in two ways...stamp to shoulder datum point for the case, or bolt face to datum point on shoulder of chamber. Please stay with me...
+darren cook Hi Darren, Let's remember what we're trying to figure out. From your original post, your only problem was in the fact that the 0.799" was a fixed value. That's the part I'm describing in my posts. Assuming that we're talking about a rifle chambered for 308 Win, when the case is inserted into the chamber, the datum line of the case and the datum line in the chamber will line up for any 308 Win case, new, fire-formed, from any manufacturer anywhere on the planet, past or present, and every 308 Win case that will ever be manufactured in the future. The datum line does not change, regardless of the headspacing, COL, CBTO, bullet depth, anything. For 308 Win, the datum line on the case is the point at which the shoulder is 0.400" in diameter. The datum line in the chamber is the point at which the chamber is 0.400" in diameter. When you insert the case into the chamber, it will stop when the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder portion of the chamber. The part of the case that is 0,400" in diameter will hit the chamber at the point where it is 0.400" in diameter. At that point, the datum line on the case and the datum line on the chamber will be lined up. This will always be true whether the headspacing is 1.621", 1.628", 5.0" or 10 miles. All the headspacing does is determine where the case head will wind up and how far the firing pin is from the primer. Of course a case that has a headspacing of 5 inches or 10 miles would preclude the ability to even insert the bolt, but all of that is irrelevant. All of that is on the wrong side of the datum line. The part we're looking at is the distance from the datum line to the rifling. In fact, let's remove the case from the discussion altogether. Throw it in the trash. It is unimportant. imagine the chamber of your rifle. When it was manufactured, the barrel was mated to the receiver. At that point, the distance from the datum line of the chamber to the rifling was set in stone. Nothing will ever change it unless you take it to a gunsmith and have a different barrel installed. It is a fixed value. The problem is that there is no tool that will directly measure that distance. So, what we can do is measure the CBTO of a cartridge that has the bullet seated such that the ogive of the bullet just touches the rifling. This is what the Overall Length gauge does. Now, we need to know the distance from the datum line of the case to the ogive of the bullet. So we measure the headspacing of the cartridge which is the distance from the datum line of the case to the case head. If we then subtract that value from the CBTO, we are left with the distance from the datum line to the ogive. Since the datum line of the case matches the datum line of the chamber, and the ogive of the bullet lines up with the beginning of the rifling, it is the same as measuring the chamber itself.
Could you resize the modified case in your press to get the same shoulder length as your own resized cases? I know you need to open the neck back up to allow the bullet to move easily in the tool. But I would think this would give you the same headspace. Just curious if you’ve tried that, the math works as well to make sure you fall in the Hornady recommend .020 to .040 off the lands.
How do you find out the head space measurement for your fired case? If you are going to send a fired case to Hornady should it be fired, fully resized, and trimmed? New to reloading and working up a .308 load and would like to start looking at different seating depths.
Great video thank you. I just have a question ; following your video I used my Hornady head space Gauge to measure virgin Lapua brass and the same brass fired once from my .243 - I referred to SAAMI specs and seemingly the minimum headspace is 1.630 , the virgin brass is 1.6222 or 1.621 and only a thou bigger when fire formed. Have I missed something ? Thanks
All gunsmiths I've talked with say DO NOT USE a cleaning rod to remove the bullet. They say best way is to take the rifle and put it upright and lightly bang the butt on the work bench and the bullet falls right out.
I just received my Hornady tools that you're using. I'm stoked that I found this video and have already watched it multiple times. Well done sir. Thanks a million.
I’ve come to depend on your videos as the most informative and well presented on RUclips. You are a methodical and excellent teacher. Thank you for the effort you put into your presentations.
After watching hours of videos from others. You taught me something and saved me hours of frustration. Now I fully understand ogive measurements.
been reloading pistol for a while, but just started rifle, this Ogive thing has been haunting me, you Sir are the first person to explain it, in a way that made perfect since to me , I feel much more comfortable about how to set my dies now that I watch this. Thank You !
Thank you!! I watched 3 different videos with people using this tool and I knew that something wasn't right. My intuition was that the headspace on my fire formed brass will most likely be longer than Hornady's in all instances. You are the only one who explained how to use this tool the right way. Well done.
+Steven Peters You're welcome Steven! That's exactly why I did this particular video. I also watched several videos of people using the OAL gauge and just had to shake my head in wonder at how so many people didn't understand the underlying concepts. Thanks for watching!
Great explanation but I had one problem that drove me and my son nuts when trying to measure with the dial caliper, bullet comparator and OAL gauge. We could not get consistent readings even in the hundredths. So after fussing with the OAL gauge for a couple of days my son figured out that the pushrod in the OAL gauge has a flat part that must be positioned correctly when measuring for overall length. It's obvious when you look at it and realize that's why the rod is shaped the way it is. Also I'd advise "feathering" the pushrod into the lands, not pushing or forcing in any way. Thanks for another great video Hornady Loader!
I was aware of this problem. You just explained it so I actualle understood it. Thanks from a brand new reloader in Denmark (6,5x55) 😊👍
Excellent video. Thank you very much for taking the time to explain the use of the Hornady OAL gauge and comparator. Your diagrams really drive the point home and make it very easy to understand. I am new to reloading and have found your videos have added the confidence I've needed to move forward with this new hobby. I'm looking forward to your future videos. Thank you again.
+cjmcnaulty That's great! I love hearing that my videos are helping out! And welcome to the brotherhood of reloaders. It's a great hobby and I hope you come to enjoy it as much as I do.
This is the best video I have every seen on this topic. It is what you don't know that bites you and I never considered the difference in head space between my fired reloaded brass and the modified case.
+Anthony Owen Thanks Anthony. You're absolutely right, I've been bitten by that particular malady myself more than a few times. After watching some of the other videos on this device, I figured I'd better do my own video and get the word out. Thanks again, lot's more to come so stay tuned!
I have competition dies and I am glad I watched this video before measuring and seating my bullets. I am going to start 30,000 back and work my way up.
I have watched many videos on the subject. This is the best one. when I first tried to use the oal gauge I kept getting different readings. Then I realized the modified case was loose. Once I tightened it no problems.
By far the best explanation of this system ive seen thank you for your efforts and passing this on to us humbled re loaders :-)
Thanks HornadyLoader for sharing your knowledge with us. Glad I watched to the end of the video.
Great information. I've been using the Hornady OAL gage along with the Hornady Headspace gage for several years and your videos pointed out some errors I have been making with both tools.Many thanks!
+Jim Goodel You're welcome Jim! To be honest, I made the same errors until I sat down and did the math one day. It was one of those moments of epiphany for me. Thanks for watching!
Great explanation of backing bullet off .030 instead of .002 or .004. I am new to this ,and you clearly explained it. Thanks Hornady Loader!
I just want to thank you for helping to clear a lot of this up for me. You have saved me from much headaches. I have not actually started the reloading process but, I have been accumulating tools & gauges along with presses and other items needed.
Excellent video Hornady Reloader! You put it all together in a clear concise video with excellent illustrations. Thank you!
Doug Brown Thanks Doug! I'm kinda proud of this one. I'm not much of an artist but I couldn't think of any way to really illustrate how these devices work without putting together a PowerPoint animation. I'm happy you liked it!
Hornady Loader
Detailed instruction gives me the confidence to expand my reloading skills. I started with Hornady and this video supports my decision. Thank you HornadyLoader for this video and all your other presentations.
TIP: for the Hornady bullet comparator; I just measured 3 different 223 bullets of different weights and manufacturers and found a total of CBTO variance of some .030. All bullets must have identical O'Gives.
Then I removed the plastic plunger and filed down the rounded end into a more pointed end and remeasured a 3 bullets again @ 8 each and found the new total variance of the same bullets to be .010. In two of the bullets the CBTO variance was less than 5%. Very accurate now.
My conclusion is the bullet bases are not 100% perpendicular to the concentricity of the bullet and the plastic plunger end is too large to get an accurate reading on a small point from the base of the bullets.
This was all done in a brand-new JC Custom barrel just purchased and not installed.
I wish Hornady would install a smaller metal pointed end on their plunger for a little extra money.
along with your program you are great at explaining ways to do things clearly and to the point. which makes it easy to listen to. thank you for all the info.
Michael
Good show great tool..In the old days we used a color die on the bullet to gauge the bullet dept in the lands of the bore..Quite an improvement
AWESOME video. Your explanation, and graphics make OAL easy to understand.
Found the same issues.
My fireformed neck sized stuff figured quite a bit longer oal than with modified case. Love the comparator. You are awesome.
Don't know why you don't have thousands of views.
Thanks!
aracp Thanks! I just started doing these videos in February because I watched a few reloading videos and was appalled at the lack of information and/or general misinformation that many of them contained. There are some good channels out there, but I most fail to mention some of the pitfalls and downright dangerous situations that can occur during the reloading process. Something as simple as a sticky balance beam scale or getting the OAL of a cartridge wrong can seriously injure or kill someone.
Thanks again! Lots more to come!
Hornady Loader
aracp Oh, I also wanted to mention...for $15.00 (includes return shipping), Hornady will take two of YOUR fire formed cases and do the modifications on them so you'll have a modified case that matches YOUR firearm and can be used with the OAL gauge. Hornady Loader
Yep that's what I'm gonna do. Thanks again!
Also...What I'd like to see is the head stock close up on the concentricity gage.....thinking of making my own
HornadyLoader, this was one truly awesome, educational video. Detailed, patient, methodical. Just excellent. And just what I needed! It was particularly cool that you showed the WRONG way to set up the overall length gauge. I knew when you started that part of the video that that's EXACTLY how I would have tried to set it up the first time, and it would have taken me 10 minutes to figure out what I'd done wrong. Count me as a new subscriber. Well done!
Great video never thought about my cases being slightly different than the modified case from Hornady. I will measure the headspace on my fire formed cases more closely now. Also never knew that you could use the 2 different sides on the comparator to make sure the bullet went in straight. Thank you for sharing
I have all the tools, and watched a bunch of videos on the procedure. Only one other divulges your analysis and consideration of the differences between the Hornady modified case dimensions and the case that is to become the final project. I have to say that your rendition is clear and precise, giving reloaders a true in depth base to build on. I've been reloading for 51 years and always based my measurements on OAL case head to the tip as provided by the reloading manuals. Thank You for your work and presentation.
Again, excellent video. I thought I knew how to use the OAL gauge. Problem is I didn't give much thought on thumbscrew placement at the body. I learned something useful. Thanks.
Excellent explanations! Measures CBTO (Cartridge Base to Ogive).
Excellent video... From now on, I'll be taking my measurements from the case head to the ogive of the bullet with the comparator installed on mt calipers. Thanks for a job well done....
That makes your, true OAL spot on. Thanks HornadyLoader
Mate you explained that perfectly,i reload myself for competition.I am going through exactly the same process(bullet jump,powder loads...etc)bullet weights,case weights.....what amazes me is you can have bullets out of the same batch and they will vary ever so slightly,my 308,223,6.5 are nail drivers at 700mtrs.....good on ya
mickycricket Thanks Mickey! I was surprised that no one else seems to mention the variance between the modified cases and the cases that you actually use to reload. I've also noticed the same variance you have in the bullets themselves...even within the same lot. Some manufacturers are better than others, but you have to keep a close eye on tolerances regardless.
Good luck with your competition! I've been competing for years...wish I was a better shot, lol. It seems my son Cody is the marksman in this family.
Hornady Loader
HornadyLoader
Thanks mate ,i hope cody goes far in the competion world(he has a great head start with you as his mentor)i am building a 6.5 creedmore at the moment with a peirce action with fluted bolt,a pacnor shute (fluted)custom barrel tuner,macmillan tasmanian black wood thumb hole stock,14x42x56 nf scope(davies trigger 2 stage)made in australia ,took out the single stage(timmney)should have someting shooting (great)i'm an ozzie....i will subsribe right now......GOOD LUCK CODY....MAKE EVERY SHOT AN........ X
RIP you made great videos a wealth of knowledge has been passed to future shooters.
Awesome video you're the first person that I've seen actually explained the entire tool set up. I learned a little something. I have the same set a bullet comparator and overall length gauges you have and a Hornady caliper. The only part that I would have added was the simple fact that Hornady their caliper has extra thick Jaws that hold the bullet comparator and headspace gauges much tighter and aligned much better. So a recommendation to all reloader if you're going to use the Hornady equipment use a Hornady digital caliper as well so that everything fits the way it's supposed to. The Hornady digital caliper and the headspace gauge along with the bullet comparator is all available on amazon.com. as well as the overall length gauges. Great video keep up the good work. Echo
This is the first video of yours I have watched and found it very helpful. The video, your instructions, and the diagrams were all excellent. Thank you!
Great information it will be very helpful as I move forward with my reloading project! Thank you.
great video & excellent explanation of all the oal tools. I make my own modified cases from fire formed brass for each rifle I have.
+shoot2survive Thanks! I don't have the right tools to tap and drill the heads of my cases so I send mine out to Hornady to do it. Someday I'll get some decent tools in the shop. lol. Thanks for watching!
I understand what you are teaching here and I agree that for me as a beginner 30 thousand is a good place to start. I have all the measuring equipment and am practicing with the tools getting a feel for them. Loading for a 721 Remington .270.
Precise and to the point for the most part
great job explaining. When I first started reloading I thought these tools were a waste of time and money, now I won't load for any of my rifles without them.
I thought my seating depths were accurate just using calipers but once I got the bullet comparator, they all were varied slightly. Now everything is precise for each rifle...must have tools for precision shooting
mojo jojo Hi mojo jojo, I know what you mean. When I first started loading, all I had was a press, some dies, a powder measure and a caliper. As I learned more and more about reloading, I upgraded my equipment and now I feel the same as you...if you want to print clovers on paper, you need to go the extra mile. Thanks for watching!
This is superbly educational. I'll be starting into precision rifle this season and this info helps a lot. Thank you!
You are a baaaaddddd man. In a good "way better than me at reloading" kind of way!
Well done. Perfect example of what makes youtube great. Thanks for your effort HornadyLoader!
Been reloading for a bit and this was very informative. Thanks!!
Great video! Easy to understand and just what I was looking for....I have learned a lot watching your videos...I look forward to many more!
+Anthony Howard Thanks Anthony! I'm working on my next video right now and there's lots more to come so stay tuned!
Great video! You are explaining it for all to understand. Very informative.
0321 jarhead Thanks Jarhead! I appreciate that! I try to be as in-depth as possible and to include info that doesn't seem to be mentioned on other videos.
Very thorough tutorial on the use of this device. I would add one comment. Your lighting could be improved on to make the video more detailed. I am glad that I found your channel, thank you for your efforts.
Thank you for video brother. I’m just getting into reloading. Your info is much appreciated!
What a great video!!
Cheers from Moose Jaw Saskatchewan !!!!
Thank you for taking the time to make this video and explains it so clearly.
Very informative, thank you!!!
The best video on this topic. Thanks.
Excellent explanation. Very professional. Thank you.
Mr. Loader, you are amazing. learned sooo much from your video. I wish to be as skilled as you some day. Your Kung-Fu is un-matched.
You did an excellent job on this presentation. Thanks!
Fluffy O'Bannon Thanks Fluffy! I'm kinda proud of this one!
I really like your video on this, I use the stony point gage all the time. But I never gave it a thought about the case that comes with the gage verses the military brass that I use for prairie dog hunting. But how or what kind of a gage can you use to measure the head space difference between the two. It would be nice if you can point us in that direction. I would like to thank you so much for showing this method on how to measure properly, and bring this to everyones attention. Thanks so much, I think that this will shock most serious reloaders. In other words guy's really pay attention to this guy, and watch it twice if you don't understand, because remember, SAFTY ALWAYS COMES FIRST !!
Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
I just think you have made it look to technical. And it is so easy to do !
Hornady will tap and thread and enlarge the neck of your fire formed brass i will be sending mine out soon.....thanks for the video it was very useful.
torkroll Yup, that's the best way to do it.
Exceptional video, great diagrams/pictures, extremely helpful. One question; from reading the Hornady manual they ask that if you want, you can send in 2 fired (fire formed) brass to them however they stress to NOT resize the fired brass. With this being said, how can you find the other unknown length not the given .799 length? And, what or how would you determine the OAL/COAL?
Thanks again, awesome video.
Dave the overall length gauge is much more accurate on a fire formed piece of brass because it comes from your particular rifle chamber. Hornady simply takes your to once fired cases that have not been resized or touched and they drill out the primer pocket and run a tap to tap the threads needed by the overall length gauge so that it will install on it. When you're using brass that has not been fire formed out of your chamber there's a little bit of Wiggle inside your chamber. Most competition shooters will neck size their fire formed brass so that there is less misalignment between the bullet and the throat into your rifling. Fire formed brass that is simply next sized 4 bullet retention usually two thousands of an inch will be more accurate then a fired piece of brass that has been bumped back on the shoulder two thousands of an inch. What you're doing is setting up for precision rifle work and the once fired brass is a duplicate of the internal diameters of your particular rifle chamber. It's just going to be more accurate overall when determining overall length to your rifling. Hope it helps, Echo.
You really do a nice job on your videos. Thanks. J.
Thank you for this video. Just starting out and found this very informative. Regards from UK.
+salr362 Thanks! Glad to help and thanks for watching!
Hi Dave,
Yup, that's the best way to do it! If you have a fire-formed case modified by Hornady for you, you can get the second measurement the same way as in the video. Just take the OAL as measured by the OAL gauge and subtract the headspace of the case Hornady has modified for you (as measured by the Hornady headspace gauge).
Hornady Loader
HornadyLoader
Sir, thanks a lot for that educational video. Is there any disadvantage in using the generic "Modified Cases" Hornady sells for the O.A.L. gauge rather than a fire-formed case (which has been modified by Hornady)? I am half a world away, so sending a few brass cases to Hornady would be impractical.
Karamojo7mm Hi there, there's nothing wrong with using the Hornady Modified cases. Just be aware that it is probably a different length than your brass and apply the formula I use in the video and you'll be good to go. Thanks!
HornadyLoader Sir, thank you for your quick response! It's highly appreciated. I bet you're bringing Hornady some additional business through your clear demonstration of how tools and gauge are used properly. I'll order these gauges. I am sure I will revert to this video in the future.
+HornadyLoader Excellent video, especially for a newbie like myself ... I just got into the hobby about 3 years ago. I just picked up my Hornady Overall Length Gauge - Straight Model late October from one of my gun shops I go to; and I have my 4 Hornady Modified Cases (.30-06 Springfield, .303 British, .30-30 Winchester and .32 Winchester Special) on order, along with the Hornady Overall Length Gauge - Curved Model thru him. I've been looking into the L. E. Wilson's Headspace Cartridge Gauges for my above mentioned calibers to compliment this tooling. Is this a good choice; or should I invest in the Hornady Headspace Gauge instead? I would not have considered the headspace issue of the actual case (Full Sized or Neck Sized) being used. Very good point you made in this video. I wish Hornady mention this point in their Overall Length Gauge instructions. I'll be viewing this video again and again to assist in my reloading process. My other question is, what size of Hornady Bullet Comparator set should I purchase, considering what calibers I already have now? I can get the smaller set, which will work for the calibers I'm shooting now, from Bass Pro Shops in Moncton, New Brunswick. Would I be better off with the bigger set later down the road? Bare in mind, I'm trying to anticipate my needs for tooling 5 - 10 years down the road.Looking forward in seeing the rest of your videos, especially those on the Hornady L-N-L Classic Kit Press Set and other Hornady equipment.
+HornadyReloader
If you could humor my on a technique I came up with(out of necessity) for my particular application. I seem to have been having issues with the OAL gage. When inserting tool and plunging the bullet for o.a.l I would get what I can only describe as run-out in the mod'ed case neck. This required me to exert a significant amount of force to push the bullet onto the lands. So I figured out that I needed to drop the bullet into the chamber.Then begin to tilt my rifle,listen as the bullet slid home. Then I'd insert the gage/mod'ed case in to the chamber to interface with the bullet. Lock the pushrod down tilt the rifle w/muzzle up to allow gage and bullet to come out. This is where the humor comes in. Can you try this technique and see if you can get consistent readings.
Thank You.
Mike C.
If anyone is wondering; The straight model will work with an AR10 but it's not ideal. The brass screw will be inside the receiver when the modified cartridge is chambered. You can make it work, but curved might be easier. I read a few reviews of people having consistency issues with the curved model...not sure if true.
Great video. I am just getting into loading pistol ammo, 9mm, and am hoping you will do a video on reloading a rimless pistol cartridge in the near future. Really enjoy your videos.
+robert austin Hi Robert, I'll put that on the queue. I have 4 videos that I'm working on right now but doing a pistol load would be a good idea. I've been concentrating on rifle loads and pistol would be a nice change of pace. Pistol loads are done slightly different as well so it would be a good topic to cover. Thanks!
Good video, the distance reference from the "running start" is commonly refered to as the "jump" by most reloaders.
+Earle BuBar Hi Earle, yup, I probably should have mentioned that in the video. I tend to use terminology that a novice can relate to and sometimes forget to follow up with the correct or common terms. 99% of my videos are not scripted, I usually just turn on the camera and start talking so sometimes I do forget to include some things. Thanks!
0.007 thousands is the SAAMI head space for that cartridge - proves why this tool is worth the money without all the complications. A Go No-Go Gauge is 0.004 - SAAMI Spec is 0.007.
Great video and sound advise!
Good insights. You didn't address the issue of the cartridge fitting in the magazine. Some will get an extended magazine or have to load cartridge by hand if it is larger. I am not a seasoned reloader and appreciate your take on advanced techniques. Thanks.
Really enjoyed that and very educational!
I wonder, Would it be better to have a case that is a once fired in the gun we are loading for ? i.e use a once fired case that has been drilled and tapped for the wonderful Hornady gauge. I am loading for a 7.62x51 but using .308 fired brass...the cases are a bit diff.
I just bought the Hornady equipment so thanks very much indeed for explaining how it works. I have lots of fired shells and when I measured them it appears there are differences in length upto 0.09 milimeters. This consequently means that if one wants the overall lenght to be the same the bullet will be either deeper or not as deep pushed into the shell when reloading ... I wonder, how does this affect the accuracy or doesn't it ? By the way, very best wishes for a prosperous and healthy 2019.
Excellent clip, tks for sharing this.
+Gman yahman Thanks Gman, it's actually one of my most popular videos. Thanks for watching! There's lots more in the queue so stay tuned!
Hornady Loader, first off great video...but have a question regarding the "twist" at the end of you video. So after measuring the OAL of the chamber on my new Howa 6.5 Creed I came up with 2.292" with the SMK 120gr bullet I used. And both the Hornady modified case and the Hornady fire formed cases measured the same headspace at 1.559" using the Hornady headspace gauge...so no need to adjust the actual OAL. However I'm fairly new to reloading and I went and FL resized the fire formed cases which bumped the shoulder back .006", and now the HS is 1.553" (I've since purchased some Redding comp shell holders to ensure I only bump the shoulder back .002"-.003" when FL resizing). Anyhow my question is, since the headspace on the FL resized cases are now .006" smaller at 1.553" is the new OAL of the cartridge 2.286"...and I need to adjust my desired bullet jump from that number now?
George Begonia... HornadyLoader covered every section except this most important aspect of the resizing process. Technically his video is now flawed. He comments that the 799 value remains the same... however it does not if the individual bumps the shoulder on the case. Such as yourself. Something is not right about this video with the difference in the Modified case verses the Fire-formed case. Why not just use the actual fire-formed case and removed the modified case out of the equation. Does not make sense. It seems that HornadyLoader just added an extra step to the equation by using both. Why not just one or the other. Or in this case the better fitting fire-formed case to the rifle.
@@bisonuberti It has nothing to do with the shoulder or how much you decide to bump it.
The measurement referred to is from the case base to ogive (CBTO) and it is the bullet seating depth that matters here. If you bump the shoulder back 2-3 thou, then the bullet is seated 2-3 thou less - you are always aiming to get the same CBTO length to ensure your jump is where it needs to be..
Make sense ?
Aside from the headspace issue which is relevant and important, using a smaller bushing than the bore size place the measurement at some 'random' point on the ogive. Using the correct bushing (ie. .30 bushing for a .308 projectile) at least tells you where your rifling starts.
Great video HornadyLoader. I found your video after I purchased a Hornady overall length gauge and a Hornady bullet comparator. I have used a caliber specific Wilson headspace gauge for many moons, so I dropped in a fire formed 30-06 case that had not been sized. It dropped right into the "sweet spot" on the Wilson gauge. Hornady's modified '06 case was visibly higher in the Wilson gauge, meaning to me as you said, there is slight measurement disparity between the two cases in the headspace area.I just ordered a set of Hornady headspace gauges to work with the body housing that came with my Hornady comparator kit. I'll be able to read a fire formed case form my '06 and compare it to the modified case made by Hornady. From there I can do the math and work out the difference on my final seating depth. At least this is my intention....so please let me know if I am thinking this out correctly??? Thanks for a great video!!!
very nice video .. great info as well
Very helpful video. Thank you for sharing the info.
Thank you very much! I've learned something today.
+alin s That's great! Nothing better than hearing one of my videos helped someone out! Thanks for watching!
I bought the O.A.L., HEAD COMPARATOR, and BULLET COMPARATOR GAUGES not knowing different die types existed until a about a month ago. I bought a fixed 30-06 and it looks like I can't use any of these tools because I've been looking for a match grade set for a month here and there and can't get my hands on one.
I'm going to get one when I find one, but say I only reloaded to SAMMI spec's, will this mess my rifle up over time? I've been under impression to make rifle last longer, need to follow all these steps in video.
Great video. Learned a lot. Thanks
Great Video. I wish I would have watched before I starting making a bunch of 300 BLK cases. I understand the concept about the difference between the modified case and the fire formed case. My question is if you have one case with a head space of 1.070 and another with 1.075 but both are trimmed to 1.360 am I still seating the same bullet in those two cases .005th apart or can the be seat same. Can seem to wrap my brain around this one. Thanks for all the videos, you are a wealth of knowledge.
+Jeff Horgan Hi Jeff, great question. Yes, your bullets will end up differing by 0.005" relative to their distance from the rifling. Let's say you set the COAL of both cartridges to 2.225". Use the formula in the video to determine the distance from the datum line where the cartridge will stop based on the headspace of the case to the tip of the bullet. The lower the headspace, the further the cartridge (and therefore the bullet) will go into the chamber.2.225" minus 1.070" is 1.155". 2.225" minus 1.075" is 1.150". So, the bullet in the case with 1.070" headspace will be 0.005" closer to the rifling than the bullet in the case with 1.075" headspace. I used COAL rather than CBTO but the result is the same either way. The trim length is irrelevant for this calculation, the two important values are the headspace and either COAL or CBTO.Thanks for watching and great question!
Great job!
I assume the OD of the red tube is 5/16", but what is the ID or how thick is the tube wall?
Mcmaster Carr offers that tube (.313 OD) in steel with an ID of .183, or .215, and even .243.
Making the red tube should be easy, and as for the case, chuck the case in your drill press and clamp the drill bit /tap in your vice and it will drill like it's in a lathe.
great video sir! you are a smart reloader. very informative..
Hello, great videos, I ve learn a lot thanks to you. Is the body of the aol gauge is the same as the headspace gauge? Thank you?
I am just getting started in reloading and this video was VERY HELPFUL in clearing up some critical issues for me. Now I am not and never will be a competitive shooter but do want to improve my accuracy with the best ammo I can produce.
One question that I do have deals with the natural variation that occurs in the headspace when resizing cases. I am using Dillon Carbide dies to resize .308 cases. I just checked a good size sample and found the headspace to vary from 1.613 to 1.623 where my target was 1.620. Most were in the 1.617 to 1.622 range. My question is do I need to really worry about this and just setup my press to produce rounds with a True OAL based on the 1.620. I think that as long as my Float is adequate to never drop below a safe minimum even with the shorter cases I would be okay?
I seem to get myself going in a circle thinking thru this and any help would be appreciated.
Allen Cain Forgot to add that I am loading on a Dillon 650XL using the Dillon Carbide dies and RCBS bullet seating dies with the micrometer dept adjuster attachment and then crimping with the Lee Factory Crimp Die.
Allen Cain Hi Allen, SAAMI standards call for a minimum headspace of 1.630 and a max of 1.640. The actual values are unimportant since you are measuring on a different datum line than SAAMI. The important thing to take away from this is that there is a difference of 0.010" between min and max. Your measurements of 1.613 to 1.623 represents a difference of 0.010" which is exactly what is called for in the SAAMI standards so you should be fine. The fact that the majority of your cases are within 0,005" makes me feel even more confident that you are in good shape. I would invest in a L.E. Wilson headspace cartridge gauge for .308 Winchester (Midway USA part #880646) which will help you determine if your cases are within the SAAMI standard. Of course SAAMI standards are designed to allow a cartridge to fit in ANY firearm of a particular caliber so even if your cartridges aren't exactly SAAMI, the more important measurement is what YOUR firearm works best with.
The other thing I would work on is to find out why there is such a relatively large difference (if you can call 1/100th of an inch large) in your cases coming out of your sizing die. Is there some play in the die, ram, or shell holder/plate? Check that each piece involved is tight and has no play in it. I am not familiar with the inner workings of a Dillon press so I can't be more specific.
Thanks for the excellent feedback. I do have a Dillon case gage and all of the cartridges checked ok. I had trimmed them all after sizing. And I will be checking for any loose points in the press to see if I can tighten the range of dimensions.
i enjoy listening to H L speak He is speaking from experience I can't buy THAT at Brownells
Great video Sir!
Do the bushings of the Headspace Comparator also fit into the adapter of the Bullet Comparator? So when owning the Bullet Comparator i must only purchase a fitting Headspace Comparator Bushing?
I started reloading about three months ago. Presently, I only do .308 Winchester. It seems like the more I learn, the more I find out there is more I need to learn. I just gauged my Remington 700 with 175 gr. Sierra Match Kings and, my numbers were quite different. My True OAL, after subtracting the 0.030", was 2.312", which seems pretty long but, I measured everything at least three times. I wouldn't have thought the 178 gr. A-Max would be that different. I tried again with 168 gr. Sierra Tipped Match Kings and, my result was a True OAL of 2.285", not that far off the 175 SMK. This video was VERY informative and, I learned a lot from it. Now, I have to ask, do you crimp your rounds at all? It doesn't seem like there is much bullet inside the neck.
Excellent explanation, thank you. Subscribed.
Dear Hornady Loader, @ 19:20 of the video, you reference a .799 measurement of datum point to ogive as being and remaining constant. I've spoken with the folks at Hornady and have come to the conclusion that this value you've assigned as remaining constant does not stay the same. If you measure head space on a fire formed case (base of stamp to datum point on shoulder), but then resize the case and bump the shoulder back...you are essentially changing the datum point your headspace gauge will measure at. If you change the datum point, it stands to reason the remaining measurement to the ogive will change with it.
+darren cook Hi Darren, You're measuring two different things. you're measuring the cartridge, not the chamber. For example, I have a coffee cup that is 4 inches tall. It was manufactured that way. If I then put the coffee cup on a coaster that is 1/2" tall, that doesn't mean the coffee cup is now 4 1/2" tall. The measurement from the datum line in the chamber to where the ogive of the bullet will hit the rifling will always be the same as long as you are using that bullet in that firearm. You are correct that if you bump the headspacing back on the cartridge, the measurement from the datum line on the CARTRIDGE to the ogive will change (longer). But since the measurement of the datum line in the CHAMBER to where the ogive of the bullet will hit the rifling remains the same, you will now end up with a cartridge that will jam the bullet's ogive into the rifling, which could cause pressure problems. If you were to use your resized case with the overall length gauge, you'll find that the bullet will need to be seated further in to the case in order to achieve the same desired result, which is to find how far you need to seat the bullet to where it just touches the rifling in the bore. Since the distance from the datum line in the CHAMBER to where the ogive of that same bullet hits the rifling has not changed, you'll find that value to be 0.799" again.
+HornadyLoader please bear with me while I understand this. What I'm having trouble with, is the fact you are measuring the modified case headspace (1.621 from stamp to datum) not chamber headspace from bolt face to datum point on chamber shoulder, and then subtracting that from your 2.420 measured from stamp to ogive (or lands) assuming your bullet has been seated for contact with the lands. The .799 is not a measurement from datum point on the shoulder of "chamber" to the ogive or lands.....it's actually the left-over from the bumped back factory modified case to the lands. In my mind, you're calculating the distance from unfired case shoulder datum point to the lands but assuming in the next example that it was actually a constant measurement of a chamber shoulder point to the lands. I personally use a fire formed modified case but I really want to understand your formula and video. I've enjoyed all of it, with the exception of the method of obtaining your constant measurement. At this point, I can only think the measurement would remain constant if measured using a fire formed case. Hope this makes sense.
+darren cook Hi Darren, no problem. I know it's a bit counter-intuitive. Let's look at it this way. I put the modified case and bullet into the chamber, then move the bullet forward until it touches the lands. At that point in time, the datum line on the case and the datum line of the chamber are at exactly the same point. Everything below that datum line on the case (towards the stamp), is irrelevant. the only measurement we'll look at for this example is the measurement from the datum line of the case/chamber to the ogive of the bullet where it hits the lands. Now, I also have another modified case with completely different headspacing. Remember the headspacing is the stamp to the datum line on the case, which is irrelevant for this example. I use that new case and the same bullet and insert it into the chamber. Now, the datum line on the case and the datum line of the chamber are once again lined up. I move the bullet forward again until it touches the lands. If I were to measure from the datum line of the case/chamber to the point on the ogive where the bullet hits the lands, it will be exactly the same measurement as the other case. Remember, the headspacing is irrelevant since it is BEHIND the datum line and has no bearing on the distance between the datum line of the case/chamber and the point where the bullet hits the lands. Also remember that since I am using the same bullet, it will hit the lands on exactly the same point on the ogive as it did before, since that is entirely a function of the bullet diameter along the ogive. The bullet may be inserted further into the case, or it may be sticking further out from the case, but that's also irrelevant. The only thing that matters is how far it is from the datum line to the ogive where it hits the lands. Believe me, I know how difficult it is to wrap your brain around this, it took me a while to have my epiphany about it as well.
+HornadyLoader First of all thanks for your continued patience. I plan on reading through your last statement again a few times tomorrow to make sure I fully grasp it but thought I'd start with this for this evening.
"I know it's a bit counter-intuitive. Let's look at it this way. I put the modified case and bullet into the chamber, then move the bullet forward until it touches the lands. At that point in time, the datum line on the case and the datum line of the chamber are at exactly the same point."
Isn't this only true if you are using a fire formed case?
In your example, the datum point changes from 1.621 in the factory case to .007 further ahead in the fire formed modified case. The 1.628 can be looked at in two ways...stamp to shoulder datum point for the case, or bolt face to datum point on shoulder of chamber. Please stay with me...
+darren cook Hi Darren, Let's remember what we're trying to figure out. From your original post, your only problem was in the fact that the 0.799" was a fixed value. That's the part I'm describing in my posts. Assuming that we're talking about a rifle chambered for 308 Win, when the case is inserted into the chamber, the datum line of the case and the datum line in the chamber will line up for any 308 Win case, new, fire-formed, from any manufacturer anywhere on the planet, past or present, and every 308 Win case that will ever be manufactured in the future. The datum line does not change, regardless of the headspacing, COL, CBTO, bullet depth, anything. For 308 Win, the datum line on the case is the point at which the shoulder is 0.400" in diameter. The datum line in the chamber is the point at which the chamber is 0.400" in diameter. When you insert the case into the chamber, it will stop when the shoulder of the case hits the shoulder portion of the chamber. The part of the case that is 0,400" in diameter will hit the chamber at the point where it is 0.400" in diameter. At that point, the datum line on the case and the datum line on the chamber will be lined up. This will always be true whether the headspacing is 1.621", 1.628", 5.0" or 10 miles. All the headspacing does is determine where the case head will wind up and how far the firing pin is from the primer. Of course a case that has a headspacing of 5 inches or 10 miles would preclude the ability to even insert the bolt, but all of that is irrelevant. All of that is on the wrong side of the datum line. The part we're looking at is the distance from the datum line to the rifling. In fact, let's remove the case from the discussion altogether. Throw it in the trash. It is unimportant. imagine the chamber of your rifle. When it was manufactured, the barrel was mated to the receiver. At that point, the distance from the datum line of the chamber to the rifling was set in stone. Nothing will ever change it unless you take it to a gunsmith and have a different barrel installed. It is a fixed value. The problem is that there is no tool that will directly measure that distance. So, what we can do is measure the CBTO of a cartridge that has the bullet seated such that the ogive of the bullet just touches the rifling. This is what the Overall Length gauge does. Now, we need to know the distance from the datum line of the case to the ogive of the bullet. So we measure the headspacing of the cartridge which is the distance from the datum line of the case to the case head. If we then subtract that value from the CBTO, we are left with the distance from the datum line to the ogive. Since the datum line of the case matches the datum line of the chamber, and the ogive of the bullet lines up with the beginning of the rifling, it is the same as measuring the chamber itself.
When you close the distance to the lands , say from 20 thousandths to 15 thousandths and so on do you need to back off on your charge any at all?
One of the best videos I've seen. How did you do the graphics? That really helped me understand. Thanks
I head he has pass away. Hope he is at peace.
Could you resize the modified case in your press to get the same shoulder length as your own resized cases? I know you need to open the neck back up to allow the bullet to move easily in the tool. But I would think this would give you the same headspace. Just curious if you’ve tried that, the math works as well to make sure you fall in the Hornady recommend .020 to .040 off the lands.
How do you find out the head space measurement for your fired case? If you are going to send a fired case to Hornady should it be fired, fully resized, and trimmed?
New to reloading and working up a .308 load and would like to start looking at different seating depths.
Thanks very informative !
WOOOW - nice one!!!
Great video thank you. I just have a question ; following your video I used my Hornady head space Gauge to measure virgin Lapua brass and the same brass fired once from my .243 - I referred to SAAMI specs and seemingly the minimum headspace is 1.630 , the virgin brass is 1.6222 or 1.621 and only a thou bigger when fire formed. Have I missed something ? Thanks
All gunsmiths I've talked with say DO NOT USE a cleaning rod to remove the bullet. They say best way is to take the rifle and put it upright and lightly bang the butt on the work bench and the bullet falls right out.