Is “Handmade” Really Better? CNC vs. Handmade Guitar
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- Опубликовано: 7 окт 2024
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I really prefer my guitars cut by northern Beavers. That tone is not matched with any other method.
Ah yes, the Canadian beavers have that special tone that gets you that Alex Lifeson or Rick Emmett sound. ;)
Yeah- the tone has some bite!
Agreed, but the jury is still out on whether the female or male beaver has the edge on quality.
@@threeque when it comes to beaver, the female definitely gets my vote.
Haha
“Handmade” is the modern way of charging extra money for products. I’ve seen some pedal brands saying that they use vero board layouts because it’s the truest tone, that pcb sucks tone. I also have friends who build tube amps and say it’s handmade because people pay more. The problem in guitar world is that people are usually ( completely fine for sure ) ignorant about the technology behind it. So they rely on stupid myths like: wood from a tree that was watered with unicorn tears, this particular transistor that gives 0.00001 dB more than this other and other bullshit. Guitar manufacturing can be improved with technology leaving the finer details for the craftsmanship. And thanks to this technology flexibility brands like kiesel are that successful.
kiesel suck
was a cnc machinist for 24+ years, even cnc's can make cruddy parts, still takes a decent operator to make quality happen.
Concur, sucky jig/operator, plus CNC=crap. I love my PRS guitars, and they are all CNC. The finishing touches make up the diff.
@@youKnowWho3311 The "finishing touch" is what makes the guitar cost $4000 and more. The wood/parts itself/themselves, glued together, worth $500, maybe less. But a real nice finish takes a week, maybe two, sometimes more. That is what makes a US guitar worth $4000. Strangely, Asians can give the same quality for less than the half of the price. Thanks to CNCs...
@@DigiPal You can't get lacquer finishes on Asian guitars though.
@@toddflowers8052 I have a Gretsch G6120SSU Brian Setzer signature made in Japan w/a lacquer finish.
@@EphICanIMite That is the first one I've heard of , you have a rare MIJ, all of my MIJ's have been Poly .Congrats !
My dad was a CNC engineer before he retired. He made parts for excavators and he was paid a lot! There is a lot of skill that goes into operating a CNC machine.
I am a manufacturing consultant. We deal with this issue on many different kinds of products. There is little difference between pin router and CNC when hogging out a body blank, other than in time savings and consistency. IMHO this was not a good comparison. The real difference between them is in FIT - i.e. the neck and neck pocket, the shape and feel of the neck and paint - the machines are much more accurate and do a FAR BETTER JOB, giving near perfect results every time (if programmed properly). This is why you can now buy a $300 guitar that feels and looks as good as a $2000 guitar. The differences are now in the quality of the hardware and little hand details (like dressing fret ends) that the maker may skimp on for the cheaper versions. In addition, the maker may choose to use more expensive woods for the costlier models. But otherwise, the new manufacturing techniques for guitars (and TVs and cars and many other items) are far better and give more precise results than any hand work can do.
A violin-repairman(? -technician perhaps) once told me that the Stradivarius-class violins were made exclusively with chisels and anything else was completely inferior and ruined, absolutely *ruined* the tone. Was he talking nonsense, being to picky, too exclusive?
@@KitagumaIgen he was a dumbass. Explain to me how an absolutely precise scale length ruins tone. Explain to me how exactly measured cuts and dimesions 'ruins tone. Alot of tools in the world
@@juanvaldez5422 Because the machine doesn't read the wood grain like a luthier can.
I don't know that there's much difference in tonal qualities using a chisel, vs a water-jet, vs a saw, vs a router, etc etc, but there IS something to be said for reading each individual and unique piece of wood and making decisions on how to build the instrument based on the luthier's knowledge of how that will translate into tonal qualities. Wood is not homogeneous and consistent throughout. Each piece is unique and in violins and acoustic guitars, etc, this becomes even more important than in a solid-body electric guitar.
The average person may not consciously hear the difference but seasoned musicians can and that is why they will always choose hand made instruments, built by professionals when they can justify the price.
Having near perfect scales is certainly an advantage of modern technology but there's also the harmonic tones that play a huge factor in how the instrument sounds. AI is not yet good enough to surpass human beings for that job and I estimate it will be an absolute minimum of 50 years before we see any system that can compare.
@@christurnblom4825 Wood selection and book matching have nothing to do with cutting the wood to scale and form. The machine doesnt magically pick the wood to cut.
@@christurnblom4825 your statement deserves entirely to be ignored... oh wait, "your statement deserves entirely to be ignored".. I put it quotes so its for real. I flush more tone down the porcelain throne with my morning sh*t than you'll muster in your life. Your comment is plain stupid and anybody else that has half a clue thats read it knows it too, "read the grain".. smh, how exactly does one "read wood grain" lol. Please stop, It's embarrasing. Read the grain... geesh. Save it. Do yourself a favor and stop speaking to me. You wanna read my big fat wood grain mahogany, chris? Bet you would. I'm putting your dumbass on mute.
You’re 100% spot on w/general CNC belief; I have to explain almost daily that the neck/frets/Electronics, etc. aren’t populated & done via a button push. People truly do think it’s like a bucket of supplies, a button push and POOF!--Guitar. Really glad to see this video, I’ll be showing it on the regular whilst at work.
-Aaron
One of the only things that is changed by CNC, is the accuracy between one body to the next. All of rest is still at work, Mother natures influence of the materials, parts used, and the hands of the assembler/finisher(s).
Rhett, as a drummer who has built hundreds of drums in my day I appreciate any method to mechanise, template, or automate. Let the machines do the repetitive processes and the artisan add the human touch. Great video!
Agree with what the guy said.
cnc machine is just another tool and people still need to know how to make guitars and put them together.
As a small scale builder I can appreciate the accuracy in repetition of a cnc but the artistry of a one of a kind instrument is special. Especially when you are familiar with every detail of the raw lumber, the grain and the joy of a great sounding instrument that came from your hands. But , hard to make any money that way. It’s about the journey.
This whole series you are doing with Novo Guitars is really interesting, informative and just plain cool to watch.
As an old timer told me about computers 0 in 0 out the set-up for either process is very involved! I am an old school craftsman started hand lettering signs in 1972 got my first robotic vinyl cutter and never looked back stepped up to a fully computerized shop in 1999 cnc etc. It allowed me to produce easier more healthy and safer and efficient. I am also a lifelong bass and guitar player and have dabbled making them.
Look at the Islamic countries. They may be living in squalor, some of them, but when a crowd hits the streets they display some of the biggest and best printed signs in the world.
it wouldn't matter to me, its all the finish work that makes you fall in love the moment you pick it up and the longer you hold it the more amazed you become. priceless.
Oh no doubt Rhett, mojo is in the hands! The hands of Dennis when he designed it, in the hands the guys who use the tools (CNC or pin router) to build it, and the hands of the musicians who play them. - Thanks for another great video Rhett!
2:13 man this cut is amazing. Well done!
In case you and RJ ever worried that the series’s about your guitars being built were too similar and would therefore steal each other’s viewers: I absolutely dig both of your documentations, there’s something so calming and fascinating about seeing a world-class instrument being crafted, I’d easily come back to even more content like that!
Cheers!
I'm an amateur builder of guitars, I started with a few kits, then decided to 'have a go' at making the bodies, to see if I could do it with the tools I have. I only have a hand router, so all the body shapes were cut out with a hand saw, very time consuming. The only tool you really 'need' to make a guitar body is a router of some kind to do all the plunge cuts for control cavities and pickup spaces, etc. Actually, the real time is spent hand making the templates, to get everything in the right place using a router, and actually routing out the plunge cavities takes hardly any time at all, once the templates are correct. However, it can take many hours work to get the templates right.
A properly programmed CNC machine can do in minutes what would take me a couple of days to do. Plenty of room for error in hand or pin routers..and potentially very dangerous indeed, and I was astonished to see no safety features on the pin router this chap was using. The speeds of the bit in these machine are many thousands of RPM...one slip, and well, only a serious injury would result. There is no question in my my mind at all, CNC produce a far superior result than a so called 'hand made' body for this part of the process of guitar making. In truth, it's the time spent hand finishing the guitar that sets 'better' guitars from the crowd. Using a CNC machine for this part of the many processes that end in a finished guitar makes the end product much better in preparation for the numerous further processes to follow, many of them necessarily performed by hand.
Yea, templates are the way to go with routers. But you can actually do the routing by hand. If you think about it, a router is really a drill, and in the old days mortices for tenons were drilled out, then finished with chisels, or cut entirely with chisels even. Sure it's time consuming, but I've personally done it many times. Not only that, but they used what was the routers predecessor, and namesake. It's basically a plane with a blade you could lower much farther.
A pin router is no more dangerous than a sharp kitchen knife. I have and use both.
Making guitars should be as automated as possible to minimise the cost and get great quality instruments into the hands of everyone, regardless of their income to give as many opportunities to as many people to make amazing music, because that's what it's really all about.
Careful what you wish for or we'll all be playing a plastic injection-molded guitar with that great polypropylene tone.
You know what? Maybe a Polypropylene guitar designed by AI would actually work surprisingly well. We need to embrace the rise of the machines :) These are not acoustic instruments we're talking about here, 90% of the tone comes from the strings, the wiring, the magnetics, the amplifications and the effects, the rest is sustain, but that's probably an argument that would run and run and run some more...
No, its not. What its about for me is a tool capable of helping me take my craft, that I've devoted my entire life to, to the next level. There's certainly a place for inexpensive, well-made guitars, I bought two of them last year. But there's also a place for expensive, custom-made instruments for professionals, like the one I just made in the profile pic there. There's millions of us, we can have a market that serves both ends of the spectrum I think.
As a 20-year machinist and more than 25 years as an engineer (got my degree in the middle of things), I would take a CNC-made instrument any day. Uniformity being the main reason.
If I see "Jim the rock star's" Les Paul, I want one exactly like it!
Might look exactly like it. But I highly doubt it'll be "exactly" like it. Wood grain and density, finish coats, hardware weight. All that makes Jim's guitar, Jim's guitar. What you want is eye candy. Something that looks like Jim's guitar
@@roberthelmick9574 I've been a hard rock lead player for 52 years. I mostly only bought LPC's. Owned 40 of them at one point (all Norlin's back then). I have 16 now. All sound different. My avatar is a couple of them. ;) Although I have a Carvin and a Strat in this pic.
@@markham4041 40 guitars. Wow. The string and polish budget must've been through the roof. Lol
I stopped buying guitars 2 years ago and started making them. Mostly copies of PRS styles, but I made a few strats, a tele and even one of Jerry Garcia's guitars. However I don't build mine to be exactly like the ones I copy. And I do not make Counterfeits. I have 17 I've made and 3 I've redone. I just made a few mockups of a singlecut style I designed with different carves. Trying to figure out which one I like best. Eventually I'd like to move away from building the copies to just building my own style of guitars.
Absolutely brilliant. The way the pin-router guy (Steven?) talked about the different methods was spot-on. The almost philosophical statement of "we hear through our preconceptions" nailed it for me. I would rather have a CNC-machined guitar like that played really well than a hand-made one that wasn't the best of the batch made that day.
Yes. Smart guy.
Perception bias is very real. Once you learn about it it can help you and save you LOTS of time wasting and cash.
This is more than just a guitar debate, this is a woodworking debate. Imagine a dresser - all parts cut out with CNC vs all parts cut with a table saw vs all parts cut with an old school handsaw. Where do you draw the line in regards to "handmade"? Also, is there really a difference between a CNC guitar vs a body done with a router and template?
The guy at Texas Toast Guitars really loves his pin router (and weenie rollers) but the guy on Crimson Guitars uses hand planes, chisels and gouges.
As a woodworker myself, I'm fine with parts cut with CNC. The real luthier work is bringing all the parts together to make it a good guitar, not just chunks of wood glued together.
When I think of "hand made" I think zero electricity.
Router is the same as CNC just controlled by a different operator.
Dude just said "analog CNC" yup.
I would personally always want the neck pocket on any guitar I bought to have been CNC cut. Removes the margin for error and makes for a really tight fit.
@@spike62002 I respect what you're saying. Suppose I have no experience of a guitar made with that level of attention to detail. I will say that the CNC'd neck pocket on my Mexican made Charvel is seriously impressive, it actually grips the neck perfectly. The pocket on my 2017 custom shop strat is also bang on. However my mid 90's strat, pre CNC has much more play in the pocket.
@@spike62002 A CNC machine can easily achieve repeatable sub thousandth precision. With complex patterns and geometries that would drive you insane. Go watch a 5 axis machine cut an impeller blade. You'd be a drooling mess before you got halfway done with just one blade. You're redundant you meatbag!
@@spike62002 I've never had a sloppy strat neck! I'm not sure where you get yours from?
use screws and a backing plate next time for a tight fit. I bet everyone of your guitars has a crack in the side of the neck pocket
@@spike62002 they're not sloppy, they're firm. Its how they're meant to be. Wood expands and contracts throughout the year. I'm surprised you don't know this.
I feel that as long as CNC routing makes guitar production cheaper I'm ok with it.
As the guitar moves from basic shapes and machining to sanding, finishing and setup, the machinery and skilled worker input moves from heavy machinery to the tips of the fingers. It is the most effective way to quickly and accurately produce something like an electric guitar or bass.
This is what I love to see. Amazing channel and work Rhett.
Pin Router? That's cute. Try a hand held router and a MDF template.
When I saw the "Pin Router" I said that is much safer than my handheld router 😁
Try a pocket knife.
@@notahotshot a rusty nail and some old fishing line
Why?
@@gitaramaker101 A 2 hand router is safer than that beast. Your hands must always be on the handles and they're a constant and reasonable distance from the spinning Blade 'o' Deth. One bit of inattention and/or wrong attire choice and that pin router is going to do some serious harm to its operator. The 2 hand router is much more forgiving. Heck, we had 2 handers in high school and nobody was so much as nicked by it.
I totally agree with you on that, and as someone who work as a builder for years, it makes me cringe every time i hear the word mojo, it's just doesn't make any sense! People go nuts for old stratocasters and les paul, when it was basically all made with machines, a Pin Router is just an handheld CNC ! And when you spent months designing a guitar, there's just no point to fully handcraft the repetitive parts every time, you build jigs to replicate the process as close as possible every time. it makes the works easier and the end product is better.
I don't care if Novo uses a cnc or a rasp on a piece of wood that was blessed by the pope, to me Novo is just like a small family business, i don't care how they do it, they do it very well and their line of instruments is amazing!
when i started out we used hand held routers with templates, we improvised and made lots of machines to speed up the process for increased demand. for instance we had a neck radiusing - fret slotting machine that we made also scalloping if needed.
turn it on and after an hour you had twelve necks fretboard radiused and fret slots done... that was a big game changer for us..
Yeh, mojo. It's like that violin test they did. When people could see the Stradivarius being played they said it sounded best. But when they couldn't see what violin was playing they all picked a different violin. The majority of expert judges picked the modern violin - the only one in the test - over the Strad and other old violins in the blind test.
I'll take a CNC made guitar as long as they cut it out with a bit from 1958.
No, no, no. The 58 bits were too thick. Gotta go with a 59.
Those flares peaked in '58.
@@henrywilliams5712 59s are just reground 58s you rube!
@@1pcfred LOL, of course, how silly of me.
Thanks so much for this! I always love when your videos include anything Novo! I adore my Serus J, and it make me so happy to see where they are making more Novos! Hopefully I will get down there for a tour very soon!
As a builder of handmade custom jazz guitars I still agree with your thoughts regarding CNC production advantages.
@@zacharyhandcraftedguitars agreed
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars “Real builder”, c’mon man. He just said he agreed with Rhett’s assessment of CNC techniques, i.e. consistency and safety, and leaving the human touch to things that really matter. It’s fine if “handcrafted” is your thing, but the elitism won’t get you far.
@@zacharyhandcraftedguitars yes you are, CNC can help work safer and with consistancy, if working with just your routers or files is your thing, then fine, go for it, but you had to be that elitist guy that spit to the face of people who work alone with newer technology and call them fake builders! It's not because you make everything with your tiny fingers that it means you're a real builder or even a good one for that matter.
Also i'm pretty sure you spent a lot of time building router jigs or jigs for everything in the shop to help out and reduce the work force some repetitive tasks, it's just the same with CNC . As other have said elitism will get you nowhere, it's just building guitars for people, in the end it will all sound like a guitar.
Great Idea to have a video in this subject, I an I'm sure many others got a lot of questions answered.
I'm with you Rett, I don't care one way or the other long as the guitar sounds and performs as it should.
Great video, thanks for the enlightenment my friend!!
i love the cnc but i use one for my job. its definitely safer and quicker than a pin router and if it equates to a more consistent better quality guitar then its the way to go.
@t , do you think this cnc is a good enough machine to do the basics of making the body and neck? Id work on the rest, I like the idea of building myself and am looking into it, also dont have an ego so would probably take it to a luthier to make sure I did it right at the end but in terms of cutting out a 3d angled body and all that, would you say this would be good? Im assuming the programs for cnc are useable across different machines? Meaning, this cnc wouldn't be barred by a crappy program that can't be changed? Thanks for any help.
Excellent video. There is a LOT that goes into the design and the work before a person ever turns the CNC on and, there is still a lot of hand work to be done. The CNC doesn’t just magically stamp out or create a guitar. It’s a tool in the process and neither is “better”.
Really, REALLY appreciate the work that went into the video. Kudo’s.
Yep, you nailed it. You made it clear towards the end of the video. I should have watched the whole video before rambling on!
if it plays good, sounds good & stays in tune, I'm not bothered how it's built.
If I had a choice, I would prefer my Les Paul to be made by Amati or Stradivarius...
I want to say most peoples problem with c&c is how much it allows someone to do, how fast it allows someone to do it, and how all that cost savings is rarely passed on.
Except there really isn't that much of a cost saving. When you take in to account the initial setup costs (purchase, setup, calibration, user training & programming) and ongoing maintenance costs (replacement cutters, periodic recalibration, hell, just the cost of electricity to run the thing) of a CNC setup, the actual cost per unit produced tends to go up when compared to a pin router setup. The savings come from the reduction in rejected parts produced, the time saved when changing between different body shapes, and perhaps most importantly, the reduction in liability insurance.
There really aren't any "small" pin router accidents, due to the operator being within inches of a cutter running at several thousand rpm. With CNC, the operator is well out of the way of any failures...
It honestly depends entirely what you are using the cnc for, if its just cutting things like this out or bigger work, then the cost savings is iffy, but a cnc that is big enough for a guitar costs just under 2000$, due to the kit being expandable, you could get something to lengthen the work bed so you could do necks too. form here you get bigger and bigger cnc's that while they cost more, likely don't cost proportionally more, where they are set up all in a row on the line and have the brains cutting 3+ guitars at the same time. you then run into the extra things you can do on a cnc, take binding for example, if you route an area around the body and fill it, you are able to get binding made into the guitar from the outset, and from there cnc away layers adding more if you want a multi color binding. this traditionally adds a chunk of change to the cost, but on cnc the cost to do this is near 0 as you are working on other things while the material you are using for binding sets.
if I decided to go cnc only, I could likely get it down to about 90% of my work was done on cnc alone, I could get around 90% of a guitar made on a cnc with the little bit that's left over being devoted to finishing, qc, and and things like inserting mother of pearl/whatever I want into fretboard/head as I would have the cnc makeit a size or so to small something a simple file will open it up enough as when you start working on things this small, tolerances on wood start coming into play and while the hold may very well be perfect, even a small gap on these will require filler material. from there you have writing everything up and truss rod.
Now a big cost savings starts coming in when you do more than 1 at a time because you now only need 1 person operating the machines
I am a luthier. I build guitars that are all hand made but I do use a manual milling machine for some work. I don't have the budget to get into a GOOD cnc system and don't have the inclination to build a basic CNC system of my own. For me CNC still stands for "Crankin' N' Cursin' ".
CNC gives consistency but any guitar that's truly great has received lots of careful hands-on attention to detail in the setup and adjustment, regardless of whether or not it's been made mostly by CNC processes or entirely by hand processes.
PRS is the best example of this. They do most of the work by CNC but they put a lot of hand work into them that is critical to delivering PRS quality.
I deliver equal to PRS quality without CNC. And I charge for it. But PRS charges more. They have the brand reputation. I am only a hobbyist who makes a few guitars on a busy year, and none in some years.
I like the consistency of CNC machines, knowing that I can buy another guitar and it will be essentially identical(or as close as something made mostly of wood can be)
This was a great video - thanks! I love behind the scenes stuff like this.
Give me the CNC, all day every day, if it makes the process easier and safer for the company making a high quality guitar to do their jobs! Great video man, the new Novo is going to be killer!
Especially korina wood, that stuff is NASTY to work with
I've gotten serious nose bleeds from mahogany.
Honestly, as long as the neck is adjustable, the thing stays in tune, it's resonant enough to be played, and nobody was killed or harmed in the making of the guitar, I don't care how the body was made.
I really enjoy the content this guy is putting out . With the plek machines , the single coil guitars , and this video . It’s very original something different other then just a unboxing video or a shred fest...
Everybody knows the Mojo is in the builders sweat dripping on the guitar body and permeating the wood with magical electrolytes
lol
The same "mojo" can be had by enclosing the CNC gear in a fog of cat urine.
You don't wanna know how i get those magical eletrolytes onto the fretboard.
You really don't wanna know!
NeverTalkToCops1 😂
Old school of a pin router? Hell bro I have made a guitar with jigsaw, hand files, hammer, and chisels to cut out the pockets, and some sandpaper. I never made a neck though.
I built a guitar from scratch with CNC, and it’s my favorite! (Modeled after a Strat)
"we hear with our preconceptions" - love this, it's absolutely true.
Still blows my mind Rhett was in CNC Music Factory! Rad!
Everybody route now!
Neither process here is 'hand-made'. Both are router made. One router uses a physical template, the other uses a computerised template.
Brian Arthur Good point ☝️
hahahaha!!! True, True!!!
Hey Brian, Just so you know, no one uses hand tools alone for their "hand-built" guitars. Everyone uses table saws, band saws, and routers.
@Michael Miller Calm down there buttercup. The title says hand made. My home built CNC is more hand made than the bodies in this video. Pryor to building it, I never had a pin router. My CNC cuts a nice clean semi-hollow body, to be sure. That don't mean any boob can turn that into a quality instrument. A CNC isn't going to take a rasp, files, ,spoke shave, and scrapers, and zero in on the perfect neck profile by feel alone. That is where hand crafting really takes place. There was nothing in Brian's comment that was factually inaccurate, and in no way warranted your bitchy little hissy fit.
Michael Miller....Very true jackoff. The dude has a point though. Completely hand made...break out the woodworking chisels, shoulder planes, and manual marking gauges.
But where's Matthew's sunglasses?
This is an excellent video. It's like the "how it's made" of guitar bodies and I've seen quite a few and no one has really explained this piece of it. The conversation that starts at 12:45 was really the light bulb moment for me. Thanks!
There is no such thing as all "machine built" or all "handmade"....its a combination of both...unless theres some dude in a shed somewhere chisiling away, making one guitar a year...great series...love it!!!!!
You still use your hands to use power tools.
evilution, exactly. It still requires an exorbitant amount of skill and technical ability to use a machine or power tool correctly.
The sound is everything in my opinion. What matters is that it's made well, and sounds great. I have no preference as to what tools are used in the process. Great video, Rhett. Thanks!
The big benefit of handmade is the inconsistency. Sometimes a factory that delivers handmade instruments delivers a line, or even sometimes a single unit within a series, that is exceptional. just because the workers had a good day that day or they had an argument with their spouse or whatever. The inconsistency is what allows for exceptionally good or bad instruments, where the consistency of machine work limits that.
In the end though, most people, myself included, won't hear a difference, machine all the way baby
I wouldn't bet on it. Les Paul made his first guitar out of a 4x4. With electric guitars the body doesn't really matter. The strings are going to vibrate over the pickups just the same.
@@1pcfred I'm not just talking about body. I'm talking fret work, polishing, pick-up windings and waxing, soldering, everything. Every part of handwork is where inconsistencies have the chance to make an exceptionally good or bad product. However, the influences are small and it indeed takes many of those inconsistencies towards one direction to get a truly outstandingly good instrument within a series. Mostly it gets undone by computer operated controls, but there is variation within series in modern instruments since a small part is done by humans.
@@hermest99 you think they wind pickups by hand?
As a hobbyist luthier, I'm jealous of CNC. 1) WAY less dangerous. 2) If you've seen the giant fly cutter that PRS uses to level the top of the neck to receive the fretboard, that level of flatness is difficult to achieve manually. 3) WAY less dangerous. 4) Templates can wear out or get damaged, whereas the CNC program will never change. 5) WAY less dangerous. Power tools are just as happy to cut human flesh and bone as they are anything else.
You saw some of the wood kinda chipping out in the pin router work. I was a little surprised that a larger diameter cutter wasn't used, but perhaps that's because I don't know enough about such hogging out. I do most of the hogging out with a forstner bit on my drill press, so I minimize wear on the router bits AND so I'm using the router bit as little as possible. A slow forstner bit on a drill press is less dangerous than a plunge router bit in a handheld plunge router. The "handmade" woodworking is accurate *enough*, but that's not the same as accurate.
The mythology around guitar making is annoying to me. "Lacquer lets the wood breathe." Please. The point of ANY finish is, first and foremost, to arrest water migration thru the wood. "Handmade is better" is a phrase that has no definition. The guitar that inspires you to play is the one to play. (Every word in that previous sentence that can be needs to be pluralized!)
Finally - every guitar is only as good as its centerline consistency, and CNC is better at that than any human-controlled process can be.
Doesn't really apply to a guitar neck but you might enjoy a Google search on precision from nothing and the three plate method. Hand methods that are WAY more accurate than a fly cutter. A lot of cnc made tooling has hand tweaking to get them more accurate.
@@anullhandle Thanks. I think I used the incorrect term. The PRS CNC machine uses a face mill (a BIG face mill) to flatten the neck surface in prep for the fretboard. I'll check out the 3 plate method.
Thank you Rhett, always enjoyable content
I think that the "mojo" we're talking about boils down to respect and admiration to what the older luthiers did WITHOUT pin routers and CNC machines.
I'm a cnc machinist and i love it, happy to buy a guitar built with the use of a mill.
Hey Rhett, Great, Great video, thanks for clarifying what a CNC machine does, essentially there is no difference in the method between the CNC machine and the "hand made , manual pin" method, but thanks to technology, (and this is one very positive use of it!), more guitars can be made without the hassle of a unnecessary manual physical human step ,so as the human can focus on detailing , refinement and finally the perfection of beautifying a functional tool of this mystical wonder we call music ! Thanks again !
Wow that was a well made video. I have high hopes for your new Novo. That Rod Castro build is the guitar to beat! That thing is friggin’ beautiful.
To anyone watching this video, please realize a free hand pin router operation like shown at the 12:00 mark is extremely dangerous. This machine is equipped with a right hand cut, left hand spiral bit. If you were to use a conventional end mill like this, the guitar body would climb the cutter and most likely spin and fly off the machine. Second, NEVER get your fingers close to a cutter that is still moving. Regardless if its just powering down or not. When he started to set the depth of the cutter with the pin standard, with the bit still moving, I nearly smacked my monitor. Watch your fingers people.
CNC cuts costs with ABSOLUTELY NO loss in quality, and usually with a small degree of increase in quality. The details of the finished product are what's important, and that's where the "custom handiwork" comes in - the finishing. I love it! Keep up with the great presentations!
Of course it's different at the Fender Custom Shop, although they still hog 'em out with a CNC, they are touched by Legendary 'Master Builders' and, obviously, the mojo spirit flows into the soul of the guitar.
I totally appreciate your efforts with vids like this one. The topic is stand alone though. The players I know who can really play don't care about any of this stuff. If a guitar has some mojo and you can play that's all that matters. I went through this last month - picked up a Heritage 535 - got swept up in the notion of the quality and building methods. I traded it after one week due to horrid tuning issues and an overall clunky playing feel. I grabbed a 249.00 used Ibanez Am70, dropped a set of good humbuckers in it, and it's wonderful. Feels and plays great - no issues whatsoever. Case in point.
When I read handmade.. I thought even the body would be carved with chisels, handsaws and hammers xD
This video was unbelievable. Absolutely fantastic reporting and videography.
Steven is smart as hell.
He's considered all the angles and has a sound grasp of logic, human nature and the interplay.
Good topic to cover. Whatever it takes to get it done. Final product result is what counts.
What's the big freakin' diff? You're carving out a piece of wood. The cleaner the better.
CNC rules, period. Leave the finer details to the craftsmen.
Leave the finer details to another type of robot.
Back in my day there were no pin routers. Handmade was man made!
@@FighterFlash I'm sure that even back in the day some templates were used. I doubt anything was cut freehand. Can you imagine the confusion trying to make parts fit?
@@FighterFlash Back in the days there were no electric guitars
@@FighterFlash pin routing has been happening for almost 150 years... just that the cutter moved to be electrically powered.
Great stuff! Super happy I found this channel. As both a manufacturing engineer and guitarist, this video was very interesting.
After being exposed to numerous manufacturing processes, I highly prefer the CNC machine to be involved in cutting guitars.
As an engineer and music/guitar lover, this video was fantastic
I don't really have a problem with CNC built instruments. Somebody at some point had to spend a lot of time programming the CNC based on a model that was created by hand.
I'm glad you brought this up because I have been saying for the past couple years the reason guitar prices have fell drastically is because of CNC. The tolerances are incredibl.
I bought a guitar for my niece some years ago that played as well as many so called professional-level level guitars.
CNC all the way. Make more guitars! LOL But seriously, even pin routing is an advancement from rough cutting slabs on a band saw and finish shaping with rasps and files, like my first Tele build. Yay for progress!
If Novos were 100% hand built, I'd never get to own one - they'd cost $6 each.
I think it was Steven's comments (15:16 thru 15:34) that struck me as so very insightful: "... If you believe that's [handmade] what you need, then that's what you need, because we hear with our preconceptions..." SO TRUE.
It needs to be pointed out that the "Hand made" debate is NOT actually about CNC machines verses Pin Routers.
its about a veteran Luthier who has the experience to "listen" to the materials an instrument is to be built from, and then properly select the best materials for a given Guitar design. Tap Toning is huge part of that process. ( notice that no one in the video did that on any of the guitars)
but it can take at least a decade of building, to properly understand just what benefits Tap Toning can provide a builder. and ONLY if he practices this art.
this is because an "instruments" entire job is to vibrate in a controlled manner. and there is no CNC or any machine yet that can predict that. Its only the skill & experience of a Luthier that can make that call. and this "tapping / listening" process is something that is carried throughout the entire build at every stage..
After the initial material selection...There is nothing wrong with using modern machines to make a guitar. but the Tap Toning must continue as the Instrument is being built in order to get a "Tonal picture" of the material as its being worked.
the problem arises when inexperienced woodworkers who "Call" themselves "luthiers"... start just chucking wood in to some automated machines and Call ALL of the product coming off said machines "great guitars"
and starting at 13:30.. the guy makes my case for me most eloquently.. until he goes off the rails at 14:05 and begins to extol the virtues of the factory cookie cutter system.
I've railed for decades about the fact that ALL "factory made guitars" are nothing more than Cookie Cutter guitars and have no soul in them and building a "Truly great instrument" in a cookie cutter factory setting...is a complete fluke. take a minute to look up the Winchester "1 of 1000" Rifles made in the 1880s and you'll see that this idea is not new.
what Factories Do Best, is make instruments cheaper.. but not necessarily better.
and Don't get me started about Forced Dried (Kiln) woods verses natural Air dried woods. there are SOME things that should NEVER be rushed all in the name of a profit.
I appreciate your comment and this video made me chuckle. The video sets out to prove that its a pointless video and does so. We don't even get to hear a single guitar in the whole video. In short, your comment has more value then the entire video.
What a great picture of how creation happens. Thanks for the insight!!
I didn't see a "hand made" guitar anywhere in this video. But still pretty cool. Thanks for the video....
Those were footmade, I can tell.
I use a CNC router for manufacturing signs. We used to rout all the signs by hand but now we use a CNC. CNCs are faster, much more accurate and do a better job over all. A CNC router is just another way to cut wood and that is it. A luthier could hand saw the entire job as well but you don‘t see them doing that. That would be doing “by hand”. They could sand it by hand as well. You might get your guitar in 5 years. No, they use power tools and that is what a CNC router is a power tool that cuts wood. No doubt when luthiers began using power tools there might have been a debate from moving away from doing everything by hand. To debate this topic is based on metal illness. End of story (good video, thanx).
I can use power tools without mucking about using any software. A CNC machine with no program is a table.
Taylor guitars are largely CNC made. They are the most consistent in terms of quality, sound, playability, etc. Why? Because CNC makes them IDENTICAL. The design was done correctly.
This wasnt true the last time I toured Taylor's factory. Their sound board and sound holes are CNCed, everything else is done with non-CNC tools. Their polishing and buffing is done by large robots.
What i like about this channel is a lot of times i learn something. After seeing this video i searched for prs cnc and lp cnc, pretty fun to watch how the machine carves the maple tops. I also found this guy making a whole guitar by hand and it is incredible (strack guitars). I mean cnc made guitars are probably cheaper and “better” but this guy is amazing,.
Termites create the best sound holes for one-of-a-kind acoustics.
CNC is the way to go. From a manufacturing point of view, consistency, productivity, safety, all achieving better product at a lower labor cost.
11:25 YIKES, thats a good way to lose some fingers, inserting the pin while the tool spindle is running. Then goes on to speak about the risk of running that machine... lead by example!
I noticed that, too. I was a safety engineer and I am astounded the machine was so dangerous. You have to design for real people, who will always cut corners or get distracted, it's the human condition. I'm sure he knew he should have shut the cutter off and waited for it to spin down to a stop, but he was trying to save that time. The guy watching and asking questions should not even be in the production area at all.
Loving this series! Thank you!
If you want consistency you want a CNC machine. If you’re making one or two products by hand is fine and you need a lot of skills
Think it's more about the builder than the player. Quite gratifying and rewarding. Its not always about production numbers. It's the experience and the reward.
CNC is just a duplicating machine, like the pin. If the design was bad, both will turn out bad parts. If the design was good, they can repeat that.
Exactly! CNC's are just repeating what you instruct them to do. If you trace the same line over and over again with a pin router, you're doing the same thing.
How about a series on the history of guitar building? How would a custom guitar be built in the 50s or 70s? How were some of the great acoustic guitars in the 1930s? etc.
Thanks for another great informative video.
I don't care what method was used to cut the guitar. The only real advantage to a hand made guitar, if I make it myself, is total control of the type of wood it is made out of. It doesn't matter what method was use to cut it. It's the finish work that is most important to me.
Neither where "hand made" , both used machines, both used router bits, one had its boundaries set by a template (quite possibly a template made on the cnc) and the other was guided by X,Y data.
An acoustic guitar where someone is taking shavings off the braces is what hand mode is about and where a difference would matter.
In this style of guitar a one off hand made prototype is great for doing on the fly changes to the styling and balance of a body, after that it is consistent duplication of that result which is where CNC comes into its own and keeps the price down in the area of shaping wood that could be better spent on finish and setup.
Agreed. The most basic of Violin designs might give people a better idea about handmade stringed instrument "voice".
unless they produce a machine that can choose the wood /glue /fret/ polish/assemble/finish sand/mock up/ setup then every guitar is hand made. i Build guitars and banjos i do not have a CNC or pin router. i do use a band saw and a hand router and files chisels etc.
If small local shops manufacturing and inovating in either the US or Europe want to compete at all with hyper-factorys in asia. cnc, 3d printing, mini lazer cutters and smart stuff like are essential, you cant waste a skiled guys time having him route a dam hole in a bit of wood for 20mins when he could be doing far higher skilled tactile jobs. So good to see things still being created and manufacturing still happening.
A CNC-Machine is just another tool. You can't built a guitar "by hand". I'd love to see someone trying to carve out a guitar body with his fingernails.
You have to use tools. I have learned by myself: The better the tools, the better the outcome.
A pinrouter is a fine machine. But every busines has to calculate some mayor subjects: Time and consistency.
Nothing beats a tool that spares time, and gives you consistance and quality.
Hand-built doesn't mean not using tools.
I have said this for years! A CNC is no different from a Pin-router - they both use a template (the CNC is following a Template too btw) and a 'power tool'. The only difference is that a machine is moving either the body or cutting tool precisely where as a Pin router relies on a 'human' to move either the tool or the body.
PRS actually make a 'hand made' version of whatever body, neck etc and scan that in to the machine to create the 'template'.
All a CNC does is produce the 'rough' body, the rough shape, the rough carve of a top or neck, and, like putting a 'template' on the top and routing out the cavities for PU's, electronics etc. Once the 'rough' shape body blanks come out of the CNC machines, these are then turned into guitars by skilled craftsmen who will sand out all the CNC marks (as Rhett knows well after receiving a CNC body blank for a kit build), sand down necks, sand down the right neck angle for set necks and ensure the fit tightly into the neck pocket for gluing, hand fit every fret wire, do all the fret work by hand, glue in every inlay, which can be quite complex (not just a dot), hand radius fretboards, hand finish all the frets, hand stain and finish the guitar, hand wire all the electronics, hand fit all the tuners, hand string the instrument, hand set up the instrument etc etc.
A solid body will be glued up (if it has a maple cap for example) then roughly cut to shape by hand and a bandsaw before its CNC'd into shape with all the routes cut out. The CNC is just following a 'template' like any 'hand' shaped guitar. Its done so that every guitar in the same model is consistent (apart from differences in wood density/grain as to be expected) so that anyone buying a guitar - whether its a Novo, a PRS etc - can buy in confidence because the 'specs' are the same as they are listed as.
Well ... moving the wood by hand along machines is not “handmade” 😂😂😂
Does it really matter that the pattern that the router uses is a physical object instead of a list of stepper motor movements stored in a computer? Is the wooden blank chosen any more carefully by the guy with the pin router? Seems to me that it would be easier for the guy shoving the blank around on the pin router to screw up. Of course, in the world of random wound pickups and 'relic-ed' guitars, the inconsistencies of hand work and fake ageing are revered rather than scorned. (Disclaimer - I'm a software developer and I'm building a small CNC machine.)
jfan4reva I don’t think the machining makes a relevant difference. But it looks like they took a much nicer piece of wood for the „handmade“ version.
Having tools in contact with the work is not really handmade. If you're not digging the wood out with your fingernails then it just isn't handmade!
You know, there‘s a difference between power tools and hand-driven tools ⚒
@@Sadowsky46 not on a fundamental level there isn't any true difference. They all operate on the same basic principals and we use them for the same reasons and end results. You simply cannot grasp things as they really are.
Great series! I own both handmade and mass production guitars and yes I agree the CNC method gives you consistency however as said here it’s still down to the operator/craftsman because some of those guitars play and look superb and others are well ok.
The handmade guitars have their flaws but this is what gives them an organic look and feel and no two are exactly the same. A perfectly unique guitar which was built for each of my sons when they were born as a unique gift to them when they’re older. But I’d say I still prefer the CNC method for its safety and bare bones consistency and leave the energy of the craftsman to really nail the details in frets and sanding because the devils in the details!
So if it takes less time, less labor and it’s safer to build a CNC guitar, then it should be cheaper???
CNC is what made Taylor guitars explode in popularity many years ago now. The technology allowed for consistent reliability and word quickly spread.
Umm.. excuse my ignorance but does the sound really change on an electric guitar? It's not like it has an echo chamber.
Depends if it's a hollow body or solid body. On a hollow body, the body does contribute somewhat to sound, but you have volume limits way below what you can achieve with a solid body and some hot pickups (solid body sound is more regulated by the electronics, and style and quality of the pickups)😉
@@danw1955 Thanks :)
It definitely does, but the degrees to which different ears will detect it is debatable for sure.
To better answer your question I'll give you an experiment to try; tap on different materials like glass, wood and plastic, they obviously vibrate differently and sound different. When you are underwater sounds travel much further based on the same principle (density), fill a glass with varying amounts of liquid and the pitch of the sound will change. Guitars even have resonant frequencies where certain notes will sustain better when the vibrations sent through the body match the frequency of the note to further vibrate the note and keep it ringing longer, though this effect is more obvious on acoustics, especially when amplified (usually one note resonates or feeds back FAR more that others).
Now imagine you have two nails with a string tied between them and you have this on a dense piece of hardwood and also another on a much less dense and softer wood, do you think that the vibration would be affected, even slightly? Try making an old string walkie-talkie out of paper cups, tins and plastic cups, again, the material heavily affects the tone, even though the person's voice hasn't changed.
Amplification and effects allow you to heavily affect tone, but my guitar with a metal nut (string contact point 1), wooden bridge (contact point 2) and a plastic body has a totally different character to my semi-hollow electric which is a light, soft wood with a cavity or hole in it to allow for more resonance like an acoustic. That guitar in turn sounds completely different to my Les Paul body which is super dense and heavy.
Long post, but hopefully it has helped answer your question; yes it makes a difference, but not everyone will notice it, some of it is also based on touch and the feel.
It's way cool that you can take tours, and they have been letting people do vids from inside. I'll have to put that on my next Tennessee trip. I'm sure Dennis is on your list of top luthiers. Who else would make top 5 for you?