While I get the idea of "writing to market", I think it has some inherent pitfalls to be aware of. The first is that if you try to only satisfy a potential audience, you may lose interest in your own project and risk half-heartedly making a movie. Films have so many moving parts and if you get bored, everyone associated with it will follow your lead. I think it's better to make a film you want to make and dovetail an audience into it. Like Jason points out, you can always dissect your film and find marketable elements. From an artist's perspective, you also risk creating something cookie cutter vs something moderately original, and that audience you initially pursued may not even exist by the time you are finished. Why not make something you're passionate about and excite others to see it, whatever it is? Don't just make something for someone else, make something someone else will want to see.
Having this information before you set out to make a film is very helpful. Even if you don't use it, it is important to keep it in the back of your mind. Because let's be real folks, even in indie film, there's a business side to it. And it doesn't have to be this evil, nefarious thing like J says. Props to J Horton for always being transparent and sharing his knowledge and techniques.
Yea no. 1 is my focal point. Iv recently as a hobby went back and started reediting my old movies from filmschool and before trying to make them good or better. Its alot of fun and i get to see how far iv progressed. I think it would be neat if these directors went back too n tried to fix their duds. Sometimes just rescoring or removing some of the bloated scenes is all it needs.
I'm getting my first film on the way, this certainly helps me to stop overthinking about pointless things and focus on the actual problems. Thanks a lot.
Thanks! This is really helpful for me even though I’m not a film maker. Having busted my butt in the past to create content only get the sound of crickets, I now appreciate the smart effort that is needed to have my work seen. Marketing is not intuitive. It’s definitely something I need to learn. I really like this channel. You interview amazing people. I learn so much that I can apply to different art forms. Two enthusiastic thumbs up!👍 👍
thank you... been watching your movies... per finding you here...(interviewer does a great job--asks fetching questions and doesn't get in the way...thanks)... Keep Rollin' Strong...
Listen to and write from your heart. Be original. Think outside the box. This is what I recommend doing. Your audience will find you if you have something to say in your film that is well made and resonates well with them. Anyone can be a hack.
Make the project first. No matter what, get it done. But then be humble and open to feedback BUT NEVER make ANYTHING stop you from making the next one. If you are making a movie to MAKE MONEY, oh yeah, audience and all that. If you are making movies 'cause you love the process, screw the audience, focus on IT. Great advice, for me I need someone else to keep these points in mind.
Love this! A lot of the tips and tactics J. mentions also works for books - I know because I employed them! 🤣🤣 Especially with regard to targeting underserved audiences. These are very smart, very effective strategies. 👍🏾👍🏾
Very good and informative video. I am very eager to be a successful filmmaker and all of your videos are very inspiring and informative on how to achieve success. Thank you very much!
I get number 2, but I also dislike this the most. I feel too many movies think too much about the audience to the detriment of basic story and character. They feel like a checklist of tropes and bad cliches trying to be cool. Particularly with casting, just get whoever is hot right now regardless of how well suited they are to the role. I read a film maker lamenting that studios have turned him down because he didn't have enough followers on social media... like WTF?! I really do wish film makers could just make their vision and not have studios water everything down to a spreadsheet.
I believe his advice and what companies do now are exactly the same. The advice is telling you to think about not just you, but also for who you want to like the movie. He straight up tells you not to follow a checklist. What companies do is play it safe and only make movies that have: Follow a checklist, only use the cheapest writer regardless of their experience, only make it if there is a clear and pre-existing audience, ignore all the complaints by the pre-existing audience and push their own "market researched best most generalized audience".
2-5 is the difference between art as a hobby interest and and business. When you are starting out just do what every you enjoy to learn the skills and get past point 1 of making something good. If you are lucky, you might end up with something good that lots of people like and is successful. If you want to consistently make money, you need to start considering the audience/marketing aspects. Between the two there is this big gap where "artists" think taking those things into consideration cheapens the art or makes someone a sellout. Personally, I find it a lot of fun and consider an constraint as something that can instill an inherently interesting dimension to the art. Anyone could make a modern film in black and white. The interesting questions become: Can you still express the full depth of the story without color? Can you make a good story? Really good, so good that people don't care that there isn't color? In a similar way you can do that with just questions on audience subversion. Can you make a middle aged, American soldier love a character story about a western hating member of ISIS? Without resorting to comedy or reformation, but understanding and respect?
Self promo on reddit is hard, most subreddits have some people who absolutely hate self promo of anyone but the subreddit "stars." Honestly, at this point and my disdain for reddit I'd recommend using a vpn and a few alt accounts, as well as co-workers to put things in your favor. I'd say most of then people who got big through reddit did this, the risk is maybe getting banned, but if your post was never going to get seen it would be worth it.
THE FILM INDUSTRY IS VERY POLITICAL. THE FILM PRODUCER NEEDS TO HAVE AT LEAST ONE BIG NAME ACTOR/ACTRESS IN THE MOVIE AND A MARKETING NETWORK WILLING TO GET BEHIND THEM WITH MAJOR DOUGH TO PUSH IT! THAT'S ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW.
I can't think of a single filmmaker who is really good at making films and good enough at marketing their films to earn a profit. A lot of really good marketers will sell their not very good films. By the same token, there are a lot of really good movies languishing on Amazon Video Direct that will never find an audience. Self-distribution is being promoted by people living on the fringes of the industry. It's a position that gains support only because too many people are determined to make films. Personally, I'd rather be a really good film-maker and getting better because eventually I will get the budget and marketing support of industry professionals. But a marketing wiz making not so good films will always be in that same spot unless they get lucky and their movie becomes a hit or they decide to focus on marketing and distribution.
It's not just indie films with these problems!! Multimillion dollar productions are crap these days often for the same reasons! Not to mention Reason Number 1 is their biggest problem now!
I guess then also a question is do you want to make money or do you want to make a good movie that will last forever? Like the movie *Under the Skin* is a great example of this. Jonathan Glazer made an awesome thriller in 2013, with a very famous actress. But no one saw it (underperformed), probably from the marketing or just not sure what the movie is about to risk watching. Today if you see this movie for the first time, just like pre 70s movies in school, you're not going to think about the budget or the box office. You just care if the movie is good or not. I guess my answer as to why people don't watch indie movies is simply probably because they will only watch franchise/IP movies. So something that is easily recognizable has a better chance at making money than your $5 million film that you put your passion to make that no one saw or talks about.
Every undergrad degree, and I mean EVERY one, should have basic business, basic accounting, and basic marketing included. It's used in everything whether you are a chef, an artist, or an writer. Everyone needs these basic concepts. This whole video is basic marketing... (Maybe even teach these at the High School level as required courses for graduation)
A degree is a measurement of movement, not knowledge. To someone possessing knowledge a degree could be very useful. To someone possessing patience a degree can demonstrate the holding of such a quality. When you tell someone like myself (bookworm witch) that you possess a degree I know movement has been made, but there is no guarantee of knowledge. Most people who have degrees have student loan deficits; the post secondary education system is concerned with profit primarily and they educate most people well past their natural intelligence. 2c
@@smellymala3103 It's why I suggested the basic courses in my post. Just enough to get an idea. I know of too many artists (of all types but also in the trades) that don't apply basic business ideas. Not talking fancy stuff. The basics. I pop on this creators' vids a lot and see a lot of videos along these lines and my first thoughts are always: jeez, that's just basic business/marketing.
This is too woke for me - it’s people like him who’s ruining the movie industry by pushing all this hyper focus on ‘diversity, inclusion and diversity’ instead of focusing on the story and entertaining the audience.
I suppose you can roughly categorize filmmakers into two camps: those who have something to say, and those who simply want to make a lot of money. Michael Bay is in the second group, as are almost all studio executives. Let's be honest, comic book films are that way. You obviously can have crossovers, like Spielberg. 'Saving Private Ryan' had so many details most will not get, but the film is overall powerful and moving, and obviously has a lot to say, and deservedly made a lot of money. Avengers made more but was inconsequential.
I think it's much more complex than that. I'm very much a passionate filmmaker. But yeah, I do focus on business too. And it be frank, it's why I am able to make a living off the exhibition of my films. I do what I love FOR A LIVING. And it's awsome. But I still have to think about the business too.
Meh, I understand if your only goal is to make money doing this, but I would never dedicate a year of my life to making a feature allowing data to influence my creative decisions. Factory films or art. I guess the good filmmakers have a balance of the two.
it's totally not my only goal (to make money). but the question was centered around the business side of things as is my channel. Talking about the business side doesn't negate or dismiss the importance of the creative. Like you said it's a balance of the two.
I look at it this way: you MUST have passion for your film. After that, simply decide at the beginning, what are you trying to say? Why are you making this film? Then, what can I do to make a film that gets my ideas across, and to the people who should see this film? Now if you are just making a film for money, put the damned camera down and become a producer.
@@scottslotterbeck3796 i 100 percent agree with all those points. And my main motivation for being a filmmaker is the passion. But I also have to eat. It's what I do for a living. And I don't compromise my creative for these things. These are just things I think about on top of the creative .
@@JHorton "And I don't compromise my creative for these things. These are just things I think about on top of the creative ." I think that can be difficult for some people to understand: how to express yourself creatively while satisfying the business side of things. To me, it's coming to a realization that I'm not correct all the time, and that's why feedback and data and collaboration is good, because my work may be improved by something outside of my own creative mind.
On the flip side , why dedicate your time making a film I'd no one is going to watch your message ? It need not mean you compromise your message but if you can have a strategy for marketing and promotion then that really important message you have can reach more people . The more people you reach the more your message can have the chance to change the world.
Mumblecore is a subgenre of independent film characterized by naturalistic acting and dialogue (sometimes improvised), low-budget film production, an emphasis on dialogue over plot, and a focus on the personal relationships of people in their 20s and 30s
I can't get passed reason #1. I do think that if you want to say something in your film, make it. The important thing is to get your idea, your vision, your point of view, your strong opinion across.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
While I get the idea of "writing to market", I think it has some inherent pitfalls to be aware of. The first is that if you try to only satisfy a potential audience, you may lose interest in your own project and risk half-heartedly making a movie. Films have so many moving parts and if you get bored, everyone associated with it will follow your lead. I think it's better to make a film you want to make and dovetail an audience into it. Like Jason points out, you can always dissect your film and find marketable elements. From an artist's perspective, you also risk creating something cookie cutter vs something moderately original, and that audience you initially pursued may not even exist by the time you are finished. Why not make something you're passionate about and excite others to see it, whatever it is? Don't just make something for someone else, make something someone else will want to see.
You guys and Chris Stuckmann recently teach me a lot on why Indie films struggle the most to get to the starting line and succeeding. Love learning
Thanks for watching Ruben!
Having this information before you set out to make a film is very helpful. Even if you don't use it, it is important to keep it in the back of your mind. Because let's be real folks, even in indie film, there's a business side to it. And it doesn't have to be this evil, nefarious thing like J says. Props to J Horton for always being transparent and sharing his knowledge and techniques.
Yea no. 1 is my focal point. Iv recently as a hobby went back and started reediting my old movies from filmschool and before trying to make them good or better. Its alot of fun and i get to see how far iv progressed. I think it would be neat if these directors went back too n tried to fix their duds. Sometimes just rescoring or removing some of the bloated scenes is all it needs.
I'm getting my first film on the way, this certainly helps me to stop overthinking about pointless things and focus on the actual problems. Thanks a lot.
Thanks! This is really helpful for me even though I’m not a film maker. Having busted my butt in the past to create content only get the sound of crickets, I now appreciate the smart effort that is needed to have my work seen. Marketing is not intuitive. It’s definitely something I need to learn.
I really like this channel. You interview amazing people. I learn so much that I can apply to different art forms. Two enthusiastic thumbs up!👍 👍
thank you... been watching your movies... per finding you here...(interviewer does a great job--asks fetching questions and doesn't get in the way...thanks)... Keep Rollin' Strong...
Listen to and write from your heart. Be original. Think outside the box. This is what I recommend doing. Your audience will find you if you have something to say in your film that is well made and resonates well with them. Anyone can be a hack.
Make the project first. No matter what, get it done. But then be humble and open to feedback BUT NEVER make ANYTHING stop you from making the next one. If you are making a movie to MAKE MONEY, oh yeah, audience and all that. If you are making movies 'cause you love the process, screw the audience, focus on IT. Great advice, for me I need someone else to keep these points in mind.
Commenting so the algorithm pushes your videos. Very useful information! Hope you gain more exposure! Your consistency inspires me
Thanks Matthew! We appreciate it!
Fantastic Info!
“STORY always comes first.”
J Horton and Film Courage together is like peanut butter and chocolate: a great combination!
These insights are applicable to making content for social media 🧐
Love this! A lot of the tips and tactics J. mentions also works for books - I know because I employed them! 🤣🤣 Especially with regard to targeting underserved audiences. These are very smart, very effective strategies. 👍🏾👍🏾
Thanks for watching Jay!
Your commenting is biased. See if you can find the pattern.
Very good and informative video. I am very eager to be a successful filmmaker and all of your videos are very inspiring and informative on how to achieve success. Thank you very much!
Cheers Nikolas!
@@filmcourage Thank you very much!
I get number 2, but I also dislike this the most. I feel too many movies think too much about the audience to the detriment of basic story and character. They feel like a checklist of tropes and bad cliches trying to be cool. Particularly with casting, just get whoever is hot right now regardless of how well suited they are to the role. I read a film maker lamenting that studios have turned him down because he didn't have enough followers on social media... like WTF?! I really do wish film makers could just make their vision and not have studios water everything down to a spreadsheet.
I believe his advice and what companies do now are exactly the same.
The advice is telling you to think about not just you, but also for who you want to like the movie. He straight up tells you not to follow a checklist.
What companies do is play it safe and only make movies that have: Follow a checklist, only use the cheapest writer regardless of their experience, only make it if there is a clear and pre-existing audience, ignore all the complaints by the pre-existing audience and push their own "market researched best most generalized audience".
Most new Hollywood films are formulaic.
2-5 is the difference between art as a hobby interest and and business. When you are starting out just do what every you enjoy to learn the skills and get past point 1 of making something good. If you are lucky, you might end up with something good that lots of people like and is successful. If you want to consistently make money, you need to start considering the audience/marketing aspects. Between the two there is this big gap where "artists" think taking those things into consideration cheapens the art or makes someone a sellout.
Personally, I find it a lot of fun and consider an constraint as something that can instill an inherently interesting dimension to the art. Anyone could make a modern film in black and white. The interesting questions become: Can you still express the full depth of the story without color? Can you make a good story? Really good, so good that people don't care that there isn't color? In a similar way you can do that with just questions on audience subversion. Can you make a middle aged, American soldier love a character story about a western hating member of ISIS? Without resorting to comedy or reformation, but understanding and respect?
Young Frankenstein.
Very useful synopsis - but number 1 ..... tell me more about that !!
Self promo on reddit is hard, most subreddits have some people who absolutely hate self promo of anyone but the subreddit "stars." Honestly, at this point and my disdain for reddit I'd recommend using a vpn and a few alt accounts, as well as co-workers to put things in your favor. I'd say most of then people who got big through reddit did this, the risk is maybe getting banned, but if your post was never going to get seen it would be worth it.
Facts
Opinions
You are a good smoke seller
I knew this (the target audience) and I never apply... until NOW. The 4 others are still very helpfull. Thank you M. Horton.
THE FILM INDUSTRY IS VERY POLITICAL. THE FILM PRODUCER NEEDS TO HAVE
AT LEAST ONE BIG NAME ACTOR/ACTRESS IN THE MOVIE AND A MARKETING
NETWORK WILLING TO GET BEHIND THEM WITH MAJOR DOUGH TO PUSH IT!
THAT'S ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW.
I can't think of a single filmmaker who is really good at making films and good enough at marketing their films to earn a profit. A lot of really good marketers will sell their not very good films. By the same token, there are a lot of really good movies languishing on Amazon Video Direct that will never find an audience. Self-distribution is being promoted by people living on the fringes of the industry. It's a position that gains support only because too many people are determined to make films.
Personally, I'd rather be a really good film-maker and getting better because eventually I will get the budget and marketing support of industry professionals. But a marketing wiz making not so good films will always be in that same spot unless they get lucky and their movie becomes a hit or they decide to focus on marketing and distribution.
It's not just indie films with these problems!! Multimillion dollar productions are crap these days often for the same reasons! Not to mention Reason Number 1 is their biggest problem now!
I guess then also a question is do you want to make money or do you want to make a good movie that will last forever?
Like the movie *Under the Skin* is a great example of this. Jonathan Glazer made an awesome thriller in 2013, with a very famous actress. But no one saw it (underperformed), probably from the marketing or just not sure what the movie is about to risk watching. Today if you see this movie for the first time, just like pre 70s movies in school, you're not going to think about the budget or the box office. You just care if the movie is good or not.
I guess my answer as to why people don't watch indie movies is simply probably because they will only watch franchise/IP movies. So something that is easily recognizable has a better chance at making money than your $5 million film that you put your passion to make that no one saw or talks about.
it's not a one or the other thing.
Every undergrad degree, and I mean EVERY one, should have basic business, basic accounting, and basic marketing included. It's used in everything whether you are a chef, an artist, or an writer. Everyone needs these basic concepts. This whole video is basic marketing... (Maybe even teach these at the High School level as required courses for graduation)
100 percent!
A degree is a measurement of movement, not knowledge. To someone possessing knowledge a degree could be very useful. To someone possessing patience a degree can demonstrate the holding of such a quality. When you tell someone like myself (bookworm witch) that you possess a degree I know movement has been made, but there is no guarantee of knowledge. Most people who have degrees have student loan deficits; the post secondary education system is concerned with profit primarily and they educate most people well past their natural intelligence. 2c
@@smellymala3103 It's why I suggested the basic courses in my post. Just enough to get an idea. I know of too many artists (of all types but also in the trades) that don't apply basic business ideas. Not talking fancy stuff. The basics. I pop on this creators' vids a lot and see a lot of videos along these lines and my first thoughts are always: jeez, that's just basic business/marketing.
You're?!
That was a nod to Facebook's comments?
😬
"Your" movie is no good. Lol. Not a quick text typo. Pre-written on a chalk board. Video recorded.
It worked!
If you read the board, this advise is actually just hating on your film.
*Your
This is too woke for me - it’s people like him who’s ruining the movie industry by pushing all this hyper focus on ‘diversity, inclusion and diversity’ instead of focusing on the story and entertaining the audience.
I suppose you can roughly categorize filmmakers into two camps: those who have something to say, and those who simply want to make a lot of money. Michael Bay is in the second group, as are almost all studio executives. Let's be honest, comic book films are that way. You obviously can have crossovers, like Spielberg. 'Saving Private Ryan' had so many details most will not get, but the film is overall powerful and moving, and obviously has a lot to say, and deservedly made a lot of money. Avengers made more but was inconsequential.
I think it's much more complex than that. I'm very much a passionate filmmaker. But yeah, I do focus on business too. And it be frank, it's why I am able to make a living off the exhibition of my films. I do what I love FOR A LIVING. And it's awsome. But I still have to think about the business too.
@@JHorton then you fall into the Spielberg camp.
You are movie is no good!
You got us!
Meh, I understand if your only goal is to make money doing this, but I would never dedicate a year of my life to making a feature allowing data to influence my creative decisions. Factory films or art. I guess the good filmmakers have a balance of the two.
it's totally not my only goal (to make money). but the question was centered around the business side of things as is my channel. Talking about the business side doesn't negate or dismiss the importance of the creative. Like you said it's a balance of the two.
I look at it this way: you MUST have passion for your film. After that, simply decide at the beginning, what are you trying to say? Why are you making this film? Then, what can I do to make a film that gets my ideas across, and to the people who should see this film?
Now if you are just making a film for money, put the damned camera down and become a producer.
@@scottslotterbeck3796 i 100 percent agree with all those points. And my main motivation for being a filmmaker is the passion. But I also have to eat. It's what I do for a living. And I don't compromise my creative for these things. These are just things I think about on top of the creative .
@@JHorton
"And I don't compromise my creative for these things. These are just things I think about on top of the creative ."
I think that can be difficult for some people to understand: how to express yourself creatively while satisfying the business side of things. To me, it's coming to a realization that I'm not correct all the time, and that's why feedback and data and collaboration is good, because my work may be improved by something outside of my own creative mind.
On the flip side , why dedicate your time making a film I'd no one is going to watch your message ?
It need not mean you compromise your message but if you can have a strategy for marketing and promotion then that really important message you have can reach more people . The more people you reach the more your message can have the chance to change the world.
Da fuq is mumble core?
Mumblecore is a subgenre of independent film characterized by naturalistic acting and dialogue (sometimes improvised), low-budget film production, an emphasis on dialogue over plot, and a focus on the personal relationships of people in their 20s and 30s
@@major.malfuction thanks
Perfect explanation. Thanks!
I can't get passed reason #1. I do think that if you want to say something in your film, make it. The important thing is to get your idea, your vision, your point of view, your strong opinion across.
It's "Your movie is no good!" Maybe check spelling before educating people.
Grate eye!!!
@@filmcourage lol
@@filmcourage loves it! haha