TOM WRIGHT ON GNOSTICISM
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- Опубликовано: 2 авг 2024
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I was trying to figure out Gnosticism. And even though this wasn't the intent, this video made me want to explore more about Gnosticism. But in the end, no human can make up anyone's mind but their own.
Grew up in the Christian church and had no clue that what I’ve been thinking and feeling internally was Gnosticism till this year when I was 38 years old. I truly believe that some of us are born this way. When you hear God’s words in pure truth, there’s absolutely no doubt anymore nor any roadblocks nor can anyone stop you again.
Mine all started with the hypocritical teachings of Paul this past year and it lead me to the lost gospels and there I finally found the words of God that confirmed everything I’ve been thinking and feeling my entire life!
Like as a child I would ask God, “God if you love us so much why did you make things that hurt us?” My questions like this never have stopped. And I knew something was “off” about this world. I’ve never felt that things were right. I suffer greatly from a very painful genetic disease called Hypermobile Ehlors-Danlos Syndrome with Cranialcervical Instability, Mast Cell Activation Syndrome and PoTS and have always wondered why if God loved me so much and died for my sins, did I need to be in such agony for my entire life being undiagnosed till I was 37. Why did I need to suffer if Jesus already paid the price for my sins? It never made sense till I read the Gnostic gospel’s and found the answers.
In 2019, i was healed miraculously while crying in my husband’s arms one night in our home. I was suffering from an incurable disease called Pseudo tumor Cerbri, (comorbidity of hEDS) all the symptoms of a brain tumor without one to treat. It was undeniably God (of Gnosticism if you will) who cured me. This I have no doubt. After that night, I’ve received countless prophetic dreams and prophetic words about who I was in God. I searched the scriptures and found 1% that confirmed these dreams. Again, it wasn’t till I read the lost gospels did I fully understand and have these dreams confirmed. I found my Savior and God and who I am to them.🥰
Same here, I believed in more than the physical world, but the god of the Bible seemed evil to me, constantly contradicting himself and the things that Jesus taught. When I found Gnosticism, I felt like all of the things that I’ve always believed about spirituality were there. Like I had found a home.
I’ve spoken to other Gnostics since, and this is a pattern. Just wanted you to know that you’re not alone.
I'm a 72-year-old polio survivor. It's been quite a journey physically and in other ways, but the God of the Bible has been very fulfilling to me. Craig Keener talks about points of faith and miracles. I'm glad you've found something that has helped you. E. Stanley Jones, who spent 40 years in Asia and was a friend of Ghandi, wrote _The Divine Yes_ about accepting the beautiful material world God has given us. My mother suffered physically, but suggested that a person "taste the pain" and let the God who tasted pain for us meet us in our pain. The lodgepole pine will not release its seeds until it goes through a forest fire. One of my poems says: "Keep Going...
thru the fog, over the rocks...
until your weary
meet his strong arms.
Then go with him
In peace."
Well, the spiritual form of Christianity being Gnosticism, the spiritual form of Islam being Sufism, and the spiritual form of Judaism being Kabbalah. When comparing the three, are actually quite similar.
Every dealership has their top salespeople.
the special knowledge required; is what Christ teaches when He says the truth will set you free. What is truth if it is not knowledge. Many Sacred books were ordered to be destroyed by the Roman Empire. They legalised Christianity on the condition that Christians would only accept the Bible they put together. Christians who refused to be doctrined by the Roman Empire were put to death. I pray Christ leads you to truth
This was one of the most informative breakdowns between the two that I've seen on RUclips. At first, I thought you were pro Gnostic. For years now, when someone would ask what my religion is, I'd say agnostic because I thought it meant that I believed in God but didn't practice any religions. My family is Baptist. The main thing that pushed me away is that even as a kid, I got feeling that either the stories were missing something or that they had to be misinterpreted. I didn't think it made sense that God seemed to operate with such human emotions, many of which seemed negative. It's like, it didn't fit how I needed to understand God.
This comment is meant with love. The words Tom used were “… to attack Gnosticism/Gnostics”, this reminds me greatly of the disgusting murder of Cathar by the Catholic Church. Yeshua said “it is not what goes into your mouth that defiles you, but what comes out of it that defiles you”. In keeping with Yeshuas teaching, I pray Tom has ears to hear and eyes to see, and not simple follow the human doctrine of his church. God bless you Tom.
I was baptized Greek Orthodox and attended both Catholic and various protestant churches as a child. Back in 1991 as a young adult, I had a Gnostic vision. I didn't know what Gnosticism was until after 2019. There is something going in the spiritual realms and so much misinformation on what Gnosticism is.
Agreed, there’s an awakening happening, and an attempt to squash it.
_"so much misinformation on what Gnosticism is."_
It's definitely a lie of the devil. Harbor no doubts about that. However, I suppose from your statement, and esoteric indentifier, you didn't recieve THIS part of the vision.
@@fancycrafts7774 yes, but they will not succeed this time. not with the Nag Hammadi library and other ancient Gnostic texts (Mandaean, Manichaean, Cathar) now being freely available and easily accessed through the Internet.
The gospel statement of "The kingdom of God is within you" in context of the surrounding discussion is pointing out to the Jews that God no longer resides in the structure of a building (temple) but thru Jesus' sacrifice now resides in His people (i.e. "your body is the temple of God"). That is not the same as thinking you are somehow divine in and of your own right as Gnostic thinking goes. Also, Christianity does not say "change yourself and the Kingdom of God will come down." The whole point of the Gospel is that God Himself made a way (thur His own sacrifice) for us to reconnect spiritually with Him. And it's thru this reconnection that we rediscover the Kingdom. Not all religions teach this message of grace. Still, it's something you have to acknowledge and accept.
@Montelm4l mann How did you get ahead of the curve?
@Montelm4l mann That's the kind of vanity Gnosticism thrives on and cultivates
“For by the GRACE OF GOD you are saved through faith in Christ Jesus”
You are not saved by your own works but by THE POWER OF GOD.
@@internetenjoyer1044 "The essential dignity of human spirit and soul are cardinal tenets of the Gnostic worldview. The essence of the human being is not merely created by God but is God, not in the exclusive but in the inclusive sense inasmuch as it is part ad parcel of Divinity. Psychologically this might be seen to mean that the psyche may be subject to unconsciousness (the mud into which the pearl falls) but its very nature entitles it to the highest respect." ~Stephan Hoeller, Jung and the Lost Gospels.
The kind of vanity you are referring to is seen by the Gnostics as the characteristics of the ego - the lower self and has nothing to do with the divine spark within a man. This is a mud that the spirit falls into and from which it has to be rescued. Various New Age movement may in fact thrive on it but it is a serious mistake to claim the same about Gnosticism, which tends to have a depth-psychological attitude towards such issues.
The kjv says the “kingdom of God is in your midst”. Jesus is the kingdom of God.
The kingdom of God is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. It is not within yourself.
Gnosticism 💪 pre-Christian and persecuted by the very things foretold. Break the chains 🙏
If orthodoxy is correct and they hold the true key to Yeshua’s teachings, they shouldn’t have to attack and murder the Gnostics in order to perpetuate their doctrine. Goes against everything Jesus was about.
And they’ve clearly done a bang up good job of managing and teaching humanity with their “true” way.
Look at the state of the place. The world. The church.
It should be clear to anyone with half a brain that “The Church” isn’t the only true way to find “salvation/God”. If it was - they have failed. God doesn’t fail.
Gnosis has always been there in art, music, literature, the bible, in other cultures, Gnosis is not restricted to just Yeshua and his teaching, but as I said before it is similar to other cultures practices and sages.
I wouldn't say the davinci code is a suitable representation of gnosticism
Of course not. But listen to this guy's argument: absolutely missing. Just a bunch of mumbo jumbo, like any "established" church member
This presentation has unwittingly supported much of what the Gnostic approach is about. Simply by referring to it as a ‘conspiracy theory’ doesn’t do one’s argument against Gnostics much good in this age of official misdirection and fake news. We’re starting to get wise to this approach. Thanks for regenerating the search for the truth about what Jesus was all about.
Exactly!
As a man who walks this life and come from mainstream religion the gnostics whom i have come into contact with gsbe only complemented my faith..
Well done … Thank you for standing up for truth
In other words, to gnostics, what is most important is what goes on between one's ears, not what can be documented. Like empty tombs and radical conversions and exponential growth and multitudinous martyrdoms and world-transforming cultural revolutions.
Preaching separation is the original form of deception.
No it’s not. This is a dual-paradox reality, separation and unity exist/coexist simultaneously
@@DaedalusR That is logical nonsense. You're begging the question. You cannot claim the truth of the conclusion as one of the premises. I'm not trying to sound like an ass, but read Genesis in the light of what Christ actually came to accomplish and western evangelicalism falls apart at the seams and the truly good news is revealed. Look into some talks by theologian Baxter C. Kruger and you'll see what I mean.
Jordan “Logical nonsense” itself is an inherently contradictory term. I certainly can. Its basic physics and even religious belief. As above so below. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Yin and yang. God and the devil. Light and dark. No one thing can exist without another to compare it to. You’re saying we can’t do something when literally everything in our universe verifies this conclusion. Solomon’s own seal contains this truth. As well as the star of david. The microcosm and the macrocosm. The same goes for science. No matter how far you travel there is always something beyond. No matter how deep you look with a magnifying glass we always see that something else makes up the things we thought made up everything else. For every question there is an answer, and for every answer there lies another question. This is the nature of reality. Duality has created an endless paradoxical cycle
@@DaedalusR So what was in the beginning then?
@@athanasioscyril6467 There are many different theories and beliefs on what the beginning was but the truth of the matter is that all current and most likely future answers will never be fully capable of explaining this paradoxical phenomenon. We do not currently, nor will we ever likely know what the beginning was or what came before it, without having faith in answers we probably will never be able to prove.
thanks for these teachings they are helpful
"These men and womane tried to show the philosophical basis of Jesus' teachings. They tried to prove that there is a science of the soul as well as a science of the body. They tried to present Christianity in a form which would appeal not only to the untutored mind, but at the same time give the greatest minds their fullest scope. These men were known by many names. The world today calls them the "Christian" Gnostics, but the Church of that day called them Heretics...
Thank you for posting this video.
The true Gnosis was never written down, but was always passed orally from Teacher to pupil. The disciple obtained knowledge through initiation into the Spiritual Mysteries, of which the ceremonial "Mysteries" were but a type. The teachings were presented to him in the form of symbols, and his knowledge of religion and philosophy depended upon his understanding of symbolism.
Helpful to broaden the meaning of Jesus, relevant to today's context.
i'm not sure. gnostic thinking has perhaps advanced on the back of bhuddism and maybe quakerism. besides this, i get the feeling that gnostic thinking is more an experience rather than a pre given code on being.
Isn't that what all religions should be? Personal experience not a bunch of encoded practices pushed down by self proclaimed hierarchy?
You just explained what I have been saying to you all along my friend. In Love!
"They recognized that his teachings were only repetitions of ancient ethical precepts, and that the legends surrounding his life were identical with those of his predecessors. Knowing that Truth is universal, and that expressions of Truth had appeared in different lands at different times, they took those universal truths, wove them into the Christian tradition, and presented them to the world as the true spirit of Christianity".
When in reality Christianity is not only deceptive but has a hidden meaning
Along with Judaism and Islam and Buddhism the list goes on
I welcome the acknowledgement of imagination as a true and valid aspect of human nature. It has been employed in the prophetic writings to great effect. Imagination is not synonymous with fiction. It is a dimension of human existence which puts us in touch with truths which transcend our finite rational faculties.
Incredibly well spoken with clear, lucid, commentary. Well done.
He's actually gnostic. He thinks the knowledge of Good and Evil is the way to life not death.
I agree & this validates the gnostic teachings of Christ & is consistent with what he says in the Gospel of Thomas, if I may, "If your leaders you say to you: ‘Look, the kingdom is in the sky!’ then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you: ‘It is in the sea,’ then the fishes will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside of you, and outside of you." "When you come to know yourselves, you will be known, and you will realize that you are the children of the living Father."
@astrofrk, Did I say follow clergy? (Straw-Man) I made it clear that I follow the sola scriptura and the others.
"The original source from which the Gnostics drew their teachings is known as the Gnosis. The word means knowledge, and refers to the ancient Wisdom-Religion, the secret science of sciences from which all true systems of religion and philosophy have sprung. The Gnosis has always existed, and there have always been the knowers of it: the true Gnostics. These are the great Adepts of history, the Mahatmas, the spiritual Teachers of the race...
I did a thesis on Gnosticism and am borrowing from my work as well as the quotes that are from different sources but most are from a book called 'Introduction to the Body of Knowledge' from the section on THEOSOPHY, Vol. 24, No. 11, September, 1936
(Pages 481-490; Size: 26K) (Number 6 of a 29-part series)
So how do I get the resource mentioned at the end? That looks really cool. I'd like one, please.
@astrofrk, "If you read Thomas, why did you tell me it "relies heavily on narratives from the 4 gospels" when it does not?"
Can you explain this please:
And he said, "Whoever finds the interpretation of these sayings will not experience death." (
Oxyrhynchus Fragment)
This saying parallels John 8:51, " Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
John is dated to the late 90s which pushes the date of the gospel of Thomas further.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
-- Upton Sinclair
who is paying this guy?
Ahhh, that's what is going on here. I knew this guy hasn't read the Nag Hammadi or at least the entire Nag Hammadi.
@Stefan Urban yes. No glue at all. Lol
Excellent presentation! Clearly defined and in a short amount of time. Much appreciation.
if someone could help me out this would be cool. ive been reading up on middle eastern/greek gnosticism and i dont understand what the view of god is. do gnostics beleive in personal deities who either have an invested interest in human kind or have thoughts and even recognize the human species? or is everything (including god) metaphorical. personal deities are something i could never believe in.
Thank you for uploading
GOD RESIDES WITHIN ALL LOVING HUMANS. We don't need churches or a priest class telling us they are the intermediaries between us and God because they are not. God's 'representatives'
Yes, a divine spark exists in all humans. But we are also a deeply flawed species, and traditional spirituality is actually a means toward a spiritual therapy & healing, based also on the premise that it can bridge the chasm we've set between God and ourselves.
"It must be remembered that this period of history was particularly brilliant. The Roman Empire of that day was filled with minds well-schooled in the philosophy of Plato, Pythagoras, Aristotle and Zeno. The religious and philosophical systems of Egypt, Chaldea, Persia and India were known to many scholars. The work of Apollonius had greatly augmented the already existing interest in the philosophies of the Far Fast."
@astrofrk, You said you read Irenaus' work "Against Heresies" but you asserted that Irenaus conformed to the church and not Paul? Pauline soteriology is present in his writings? extensive quotations of Paul's epistles? Pauline Christology and language usage also?
Wright is totally on point here and very insightful about the modern cultural forms and resurgence of gnostic thought, and its dangers.
He characterized it as a silly self help movement practiced by people who want to feel important. Either it’s not actually dangerous because he’s accurate, or it is dangerous because he’s lying.
@@fancycrafts7774 Your statement is nonsensical
@@TitusCastiglione1503 wow, what an argument.
Great content!
Great lecture.
For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. And there is nothing buried that will not be raised.”
The Essenes were a particular group of Gnostics. Their way of life was very strict and ascetic. They believed in a strong dualism of body and spirit. The spirit (pneuma) is in origin pure, and an Essene had to live an equally pure life. The Spirit is divine and manifests itself as a brilliant light. Darkness is everything that belongs to matter, substance and impurity. They did not consider the Fall as the origin of sin, but as the origin of ignorance.
True. I do understand your view
@LifeLibertyLove You have the read the book that I cited. There were Christians, to be sure, who had a different views of Jesus than the Church, but they never called themselves Gnostics. This label was given to these Christians by the heresiiologists of the Church.
Best expository I’ve heard on gnosticism yet
I've checked the St. John's website for this resource, when is it to be released? I hope it is not just going to be a PAL format DVD set. We need this in the USA!!
Great presentation Sir. The link provided seems to require credentials. How would one gain access. Thank you and God Bless
Source criticism: 'The author of Acts likely relied upon oral tradition, as well as other sources, in constructing his account of the early church and Paul's ministry. Evidence for this is found in the prologue to the Gospel of Luke, wherein the author alludes to his sources by writing, "Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word."
@LogosTheos A pastor molested me when I was nine and you want me to FOLLOW clergy as a guide to Yeshua? Yeshua is within me as stated in Luke and Thomas and you have no place judging me, no controll over me! I follow the words of Yeshua and the guidence of Sophia (Holy Spirit) and you call that darkness because I won't put the words of men over the words of them? You are my brother in Yeshua, stop judging my kind. Only Love will unite.
“I Loved the book he wrote ‘Paul’, but he doesn’t understand the difference between opinion and experience! One must know the self, before the self can be left behind.... I agree with you, there’s a lot of judgment in this video. John, seek ‘Truth’ where ever ‘Truth’ can be found, keep up the good work.” Love, Jimmy G
Ver sorry you went through that. 1 John says we who are born again have the Holy Spirit inside Who teaches us ALL things. We can certainly help each other, but the teaching is where it gets sketchy. All people want to control other people. No thanks!
How do you know this to be for sure? Have you been in my shoes, have you experienced my experienced; do you know the truth in my existence? No. I don't think you do and I cannot judge or put assumptions on your experience either, but we can respect each other's individual experience and move forward together peacefully, please tell me this is possible.
Gnostic do not have to believe because they know, there is a difference between believing and knowing.The word Gnosis derives from Greek and connotes "knowledge" or the "act of knowing". It is sometimes confused with another more common term of the same root but opposite sense: agnostic, literally "not knowing”. The Greek language differentiates between rational, propositional knowledge, and a distinct form of knowing obtained by experience or perception.
Amen!!
Theophilus is Greek for lover of God and it is suggested that he may either be an individual who recently converted to the faith or a Roman official of whom the church is seeking acceptance from. “Acts, then is a continuation of the Lucan Gospel, not in the sense that it relates what Jesus continued to do, but how his followers carried out his commission under the guidance of his Spirit.” Thus, part of the answer to the purpose of Acts is that Luke is writing to Theophilus...
One of the most confusing voices comes from the discipline of political science. In his Walgreen Lectures at the University of Chicago in 1951, émigré scholar Eric Voegelin rose to the defense of what he called the "classic and Christian tradition" against what he perceived as the "growth of Gnosticism." This opening salvo was followed by such books as The New Science of Politics, the multivolume Order and History, and Science, Politics, and Gnosticism.
The purpose of Acts has been the subject of much scholarly research and debate. Since Luke-Acts was originally a single work, it is important to note that the purpose of Acts is normally examined in conjunction with the Book of Luke. In Luke 1:3-4, the author states that he decided to “write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the truth concerning the things about which you have been instructed.”
Amen. Most Judeo-Christians are unaware that their religion is influenced by both Gnosticism and Paganisim. For instance saying Amen as I did earlier originated from the egyptian God Amun Re, & worshipping on Sundays to name a few are pagan practices. They put so much FAITH in the bible and what the Church clergy and Paul tell them that they continue in blindness. Now is the time to break free of the chains, grasp the precious gnosis given us by our Father through Christ, what an exciting time!
Jesus spoke of the gnostics "We speak of what we know and we testify to what we have seen."
And then we have the crusade on the Cathars, which I suppose was an act of true christianity of forgiveness and the resurrection of God...
Wikipedia reports regarding Acts of the Apostles: " The question of authorship is largely bound up with the one of the historical value of the contents. A key contested issue is the historicity of Luke's depiction of Paul. According to the majority viewpoint, Acts describes Paul differently from how he describes himself, both factually and theologically. Acts differs with Paul's letter on important issues, such as the Law, Paul's own apostleship, and his relation to the Jerusalem church."
5:55 what were reading the people who were burned at Montségur
?
@adomjask Thankyou Danny. I really appreciate you believing me. I pray God will bless you for that. I'm sure you will start to feel better "inside" as God touches you in ways only you will understand. I don't expect you to have the same spiritual experiences as me, although why not? It will blow your socks off if it happens to you! So keep in touch. It happened to me a year after my heart was broken by my family... see next message...
Brilliant summary!
@KBThunder5 How on earth does Christianity to be "transcended"? I'm bursting with curiosity!
Might I suggest that you are (understandably) under the power of the spirit of this present age: post-modern cynicism -- the inability to believe in anyone or anything beyond your own skeptical mind? Try doubting your own doubts and see how that works out.
Very well spoken.
There is an ambiguity which I believe is deliberate and divinely inspired in the original language of Luke 17:21. It can be translated "The kingdom of God is AMONG you" with equal validity -- indicating the necessity and existence of a community to which the Kingdom is revealed, and to which alleged private revelations must be subjected. This does not negate, but supplements, the "WITHIN you" emphasis. The Holy Spirit is a communal as well as personal reality and relationship. We are not alone.
The purpose of Luke-Acts: Though the preface initially states Luke’s intentions for writing, by closely examining the contents of the work as a whole, scholars have surmised that Luke’s purpose is much more complex. In fact, Fitzmyer believes that the preface of Luke should only be “the starting point in the discussion of the aim of Luke-Acts.” Because the author’s intended purpose for the Book of Acts is not that straightforward, scholars have put forth four main claims to address this.
I was searching for more info on Gnosticism ... this is merely someone politely saying it's all wrong and standing up for the powerful Church. Onto other and more useful vids.
@LogosTheos I have read Against all Heresies, thank you. Iranius conformed to the church, not Paul. Valentinus was a 2nd generation student of Paul, which gives him at least as much credibility at Iranius. Valentinus almost became Pope and would have if not for Iranius. For the 2nd time I ask: Where in Collossians
does Paul refute ALL Gnosticism?
@02Blackbeard What do you believe in then, if you beleive in anything? Just by curiosity!
Gnosticism preached that the flesh wasn't of any significance, and therefore it didn't matter what was done here on earth. It preached no spiritual consequences for sin. Gnosticism rears its head when we see people preaching eternal salvation (free ticket to heaven) saved by grace alone (redefining grace as a kind of forced salvation), saved by faith alone (no works as described by our Lord Jesus are necessary), evidence of Holy Spirit by speaking in tongues (Gnostic special knowledge required.)
You have no understanding whatsoever about Gnosticism. You sound like a fool.
In Molnar's view, Gnostics were not only responsible for all modern utopianism, but also for the inordinate attachment of modern people to science and technology. The scientific world view, said these folk, is in fact a Gnostic world view, and it is responsible for treating humans as machines and for making societies into machinelike collectives.
Why the face blockout at 8:50?
He starts giving the pope a bj.
You seem to be relying quite extensively on the source from which these extended quotations are taken. May I ask what that source is? Is it Huxley?
Heresy is "hip" today. What is decidedly "uncool" and "untrendy" is orthodox/catholic/biblical Christianity, which is one reason I strongly suspect that it is true.
Yes. I hear and understand your question. The answer to it is not mysterious or conspiratorial. It is a matter of clear history. The apostles of Christ and their successors decided on the basis of guidance of the Spirit Whom Jesus promised to send them that certain writings were properly attested, in line with the Truth they had received, and therefore worthy to be accepted. Others didn't make the cut. This was a process that took some time, since consensus had to be reached. It's that simple.
As I understand Paegels and the others, they never said that the canonical gospels were somehow less authentic than the gnostic ones. And in my own view this is the most reasonable attitude to take, historically or otherwise: it is quite apparent from the evidence at our disposal that all of the gospels were, in the beggining of the common era, sacred christian literature, not just the gnostic ones or just the canonical four. It's important not to fall into this vicious cycle of saying "Well *obviously* these four weren't the real teaching(s) of Jesus precisely because the Church approved them".
But from what I gather of gnostic ideas (and I'm no expert) it wasn't (and people oughtn't think of it as such today) just about a bunch of hysterics cooking up exciting novel plots. It was the way part of the early Church experienced the world. So they acted and taught accordingly. Alright, they were more pessimistic than the group(s) that won the day. So what? As if pessimism died off in the 3rd-4th century CE, or as if that's such an outlandish position to take.
True, some do tend to aggrandize the gnostics and romanticize them overmuch; but dismissing them and saying they shouldn't be looked into and understood simply because it's "a weird and ancient idea" is not recommendable either.
Also, if I were to make a comparison, I wouldn't say that gnosticism says "I'm alright as I am". To my mind it reads far more along the lines of people like Albert Camus, as opposed to this New Age "chill out" nonsense. There is nothing self-help-ish about being of the opinion that at an existential level you are alone in the world and that if you want something good to come out of you, you'll have to fight tooth and nail to bring it out.
And here I'm not saying Irenaeus et. all. didn't have it rough. After all, at the time Lyon *was* the site of a massacre. But his reason for attacking gnosticism (not that I can't sympathize) was that he wanted the deaths of those many Christians to *mean* something, whereas gnostics tended to downplay the value of martyrdom. Basilides, who was one well-known gnostic of the period, taught that to abjure one's faith was no moral problem, so long as privately one adhered to it. Valentinus was more ambiguous, saying that a martyr's death is noble but not mandatory. Both positions are made consistent by the fact that in the non-canonical gospels one finds less emphasis on proselitizing, or "witnessing before the multitude", as preachers put it nowadays. That is what irritated Irenaeus so much--again, not that I can't see it from his perspective: all of those deaths meant less than he thought; and that was a stance he couldn't take.
Now, some will point and yell "Cowards!". But I don't see it like that. The gnostics decided to make a choice: quality over quantity. And indeed, if you read Irenaeus you will see that elitism is one of the things he accuses the gnostics of. On the other hand, there is a passage in the Gospel of Philip which reads
"Those who are free on account of knowledge are slaves for the sake of those not free."
And so here we have a tremendous declaration of responsibility, i.e.
One who has freed himself from all the promises and threats of this world and those hereafter does not flee on account of his freedom, but makes himself a servant of those still bound and gives of himself freely and without necessity.
And you cannot give anything to anuyone if you allow yourself to be killed by people who haven't the vaguest notion what it is that you are about. What is more, an agonizing death does not make an idea or a series of statement more true. But a life lived thereby might.
To quote James Wilson, of House M.D fame:
"Dying's easy. *Living*'s hard."
***** (tips hat)
***** It's not that suicide is "bad" (the Cathar practice of endura is a good example, as is the salekhana of the Jains), but the gnostic view was rather clear cut:
"We care more about understanding (gnosis) than faith (pistis). Either one understands that life isn't really all that great and willingly takes on a life aiming at reducing his bondage to the world or one does not. Sentimental babblings about the "poor martyrs" are of little or no use in this respect."
For good measure, I should point out that suicide is nowhere systematically encouraged in the sources that I know of. The point was to wake up, not go to sleep.
...who is also mentioned in Luke 1:3, in order to explain to him the occurrences that take place in the church that fulfill Yeshua’s promise to his disciples that “you will be baptized with, the Holy Spirit not many days from now” (Acts 1:5). Fitzmyer states that by looking at the prefaces of Luke and Acts together it can be seen “that Luke-Acts purports to be basically ‘a work of edification’.”
Thank you!
An apology is basically a defense or justification for a belief that aims to convince or persuade an audience of a particular point of view. Some believe that Luke’s gospel can be seen to mirror the Jewish apologetic literature of the time which served to “defend Jews against misunderstanding and persecution.” Acts is said to be a:
Political apology on behalf of the church addressed to Rome:
Jesus also said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you. For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. And there is nothing buried that will not be raised." We are witnessing his words come true today with the discovery of the Nag Hammadi Library and the human conscience waking up, the Church afraid, but the truth is the truth and it must be revealed. The three stages of truth:
1. Ridicule
2. Violent Opposition
3. Acceptance
Very well put.
I'm actually all right as I am. What a heresy!
u are 100% right ....gnosis tho is a owerwhelming express ...the truth is search tell u find when find u will be desterbed ...truths there when u stuck in dogma ...i get judged all the time by mass but yet i found are spirt ....and her word is love her promise is forgiveness in time ..be strong bro
He would say what?
The truth is out there! (It's just not necessarily "in here"-- that is, in my personal consciousness and experience.)
This is interesting man.
Would you agree on this?
@LogosTheos There are some comparisons that can be made with Thomas. The 4 Gospels in the cannon repeat each other far more times, even word-for-word and you KNOW that. However, Thomas is much more independant in many of its EARLIER teachings. John was a Gnostic Christian but his gospel dates from 90-120AD (earlychristianwritings website). I ask anyone following this to read The Gospel of Thomas and decide for themselves who is deceiving: Gnostic Christians or the Catholic Church.
1. An Apology: It is has been argued that Luke may be writing: a letter of apology (traditionally a defense for one’s beliefs), a letter of legitimation for Christian beliefs, a letter to equip the church to function amidst the Roman Empire, or a letter that is apolitical. Of course, some scholars believe Luke’s work may be fulfilling more than one purpose and thus may side with more than one of the claims that are presented here.
@dabliss101 I assume you are refering to the gnostic interpretation of the crucifixion as a human sacrifice to an evil god (Satan). The interpretation of Satan as lord over this world exists in the canonical gospels-- it is Satan's to offer to Christ when he tempts the later in the desert.
Beautifully woven lies, His Grace deserves an Emmy Award.
His Grace is correct that many early teachings of the Ecclesia Politica do arise in reaction to the Ecclesia Esoterica. What His Grace omits is that the many and sundry schools of the Ecclesia Esoterica account for the beginnings of the Trinity, Monasticism and a Christian New Testament.
His Grace is correct that the Enlightenment can be traced to the Gnostic movement. What His Grace omits is that the Gnostic movement can be traced to Hindusim and specifically Jainism. In fact, where the Ecclesia Politica deviates from this seems to be largely under the influence of Judahite, Greek, and Roman national identity movements, often influenced by the hyper-machista, hyper-exoteric cult of Mithras.
His Grace is correct that Gnostics were often wealthy, pacifist, and therefore did not attract persecution. What His Grace omits is that Constantine's "Christian" forces persecuted Gnostics so much that we didn't have a single Gnostic text until 1945, and that's only because it was hidden in a jar deep inside a cave!
For those Gnostics who saw Yeshua as a human being, they made a distinction between the human Yeshua(Jesus) and the divine Christ who worked through Yeshua(Jesus). In this case Yehsua was a vehicle for Christ to fulfill his work on earth. Other Gnostics saw Yehsua as a very advanced human who was directly inspired by the highest divinity.
The book of John is a very Gnostic book and as a Valentinian Gnostic Christian I recognise it as well as Mark. Matthew and Luke are also good except the Nativity was later added by the Roman Church to bring in other faiths like the Roman god of the sun (hence December 25th). Therefore the Roman Church became pagan to appease pagans. Come on people, what fool Jewish shepard would have his sheep out in the fields in late December?
One of the great strengths of orthodox/catholic (apostolic) Christianity is that it was a matter of public knowledge, situated in real-life history, in space and time. "Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea. . . Herod. . . his brother Philip. . . and Lysanius. . . while Annas and Caiaphas were high priests" (Luke 3:1ff); "". . .this thing was not done in a corner" (Acts 26:26). Many texts could be cited which appeal to public knowledge.
I never denied that there was public knowledge, there was...I am saying that there was also private knowledge and there are many texts as well that cite the existence of private knowledge. You are battling with yourself on the public issue, we agree on that, it is the private issue you are wrestling with and it is documented in the bible that this was a practice of Christ Mark 4:34 for starters.
@02Blackbeard right............