Even if one “believes” in a designer, we have to make a monumental leap to attach that designer to any one god. This is one of the best episodes I have seen by you guys. Thanks.
This is an old argument I've used before: I throw a deck of cards on the floor. When they settle, I tell people the cards resemble a Quasdile. When they ask what a Quasdile is, I tell them it's something that looks like how the cards currently look.
I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
When we think to ourselves "Now I'm gonna stop myself thinking", it is still ME thinking that thought. So "I" exist. And if I CHOOSE to ignore reality & jump in front of a train ( as if it's not real ) then I will get hit by that train.. So reality is as "real" as there is. 😁☮️🌏
@@chetsavage2536 True. But in all the ways that count, that would "feel" exactly the same. So, unless there ever shows up some "ghosts in the machine" etc, the most parsimonious belief is that reality is real.. But you're still true in what you say. 😁☮️🌏 edit- spelling
"The Universe Is FINE TUNED By God" - By who? - God - What is that? - Everyone knows what god is. - Everyone knows what the concept of god is, but is God more than a concept? - Millions of people believe in God for thousands of years, how could all of those people be wrong? - Those people follow religions which have a function in society and religions use the concept of god, but never proved it to be more than a concept. - But people believe in God and they have a personal relationship with God. - Yes, with the concept of it. - You are not fun. - I know.
I actually appreciate that caller, he understands his arguments better than most other and is trying to be honest, sure religion poisons his mind but he is trying. Hope he is on our side today
@realilty no, I don't believe a god exists because there isn't a single shred of legitimate evidence for the existence of one. Yahweh definitely doesn't exist considering it's attributes are literally impossible in reality. You should go back to the shallow end of the pool before you drown. Btw, we've actually studied near death out of body experiences and they are a crock of sh1t. Makes sense that you would think that's some sort of topic atheists should avoid. 😂
I have never been a practicing theist, I realised I was an atheist when I was 8 years old when I was listening to my aunts and uncles and my parents discussing a man down the street who was an atheist, I asked my mam what that was and she told me and you could have heard a pin drop when I said, 'oh, I'm an atheist then', everyone was staring at me and I said well I don't believe there is a 'god' as my RE teacher was lying to us. We were being told of things that happened in that dumb book and I just couldn't accept what I was being told, I was constantly thrown out of the class for being 'disruptive' as they put it, all I did was ask questions but they didn't like the questions or my responses, by the way I'm over 71 so this was a time when being an atheist was frowned upon.
I'm a little older than you, but my only connection with religion up to the age of 12 was a once-a-week class when someone would come to our school and we'd have religion classes. To me, at that age, the stories were not very entertaining especially compared to my favourite supernatural books that were Norse Myths and Legends, and 1001 Arabian Nights.
I'm from a mostly secular home although my father was a non practicing Catholic. On occasion he would buy me these children's bible story books but even at the age of 6 or 7 I very much treated them as all my other fictional books from the likes of Roald Dahl, Enid Blyton etc. Although my father believed he did not go to church nor did I ever set foot in a church and he did not force his religion on me. My mother is an atheist and although she does not believe in any God she is highly spiritual and does believe in the supernatural. I'm the only person that I know of in my family and friend group who does not believe in the supernatural full stop and am a secular humanist materialist.
@@iminabrons If people aren't indoctrinated from an early age most people will not fall into the religious trap, I'm glad like me you didn't. I agree the norse myths were really interesting, I'm of viking decent so it was great to listen to it all.
The physical constants aren’t dials on your oven. You don’t turn them up and down to see what you get. They’re like pi. You observe a thing in the universe -circles and spheres. You decide to measure the radius and the circumference. You get C = 2πr. We could ask how could the universe exist if someone intelligent didn’t set π to 3.14159…? That’s like asking, “What if pillows?”
@@golden-63 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
No, it’s really not. That’s a gross oversimplification. Do you understand the difference between inference and circular reasoning? It also doesn’t necessarily begin with the conclusion of intent. Rather, it questions “why are the parameters of the universe the way they are?”, and invites further inquiry and exploration into the possible mechanism at play when it comes to the philosophical/metaphysical nature of reality.
David John Welman had an excellent response to the fine tuning argument, pointing out that for this argument to be persuasive, one must assume from the start that some thinking agent was behind the universe and intended that certain outcomes, like us existing- should be attained and therefore had to 'fine tune' things to ensure that they would. Although in fact this would seem to preclude a creator that is omnipotent- such a being would not need to 'fine tune' in order to attain its objectives.
The observed universe controlled by a tinker god could be literal chaos from our perspective everywhere we looked outside of what we are directly effected by, consistent or even same order throughout even our galaxy would not even be necessary.
@@charismauniversity9626 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
@@northernlight8857 God/Jesus Christ has already won. Open your eyes. Every created thing is evidence. Not one thing that ever existed or exists today ever came about being from nothing. There is more to life than what meets the eye. Things that can be seen are temporal, things that cannot be seen are eternal. I know it's hard for some people to wrap the finite mind around that truth. Denying the truth will never make the truth go away.
@@Blue-EyesWhitePrivilege By the time you factor in all the seas/Oceans/Mountains Deserts and Tundras the majority of the planet is uninhabitable for humans never mind the universe
Ah yes, the 'fine tuned' universe in which humans can only inhabit the few dry specks of land upon the thin crust of a ball of molten rock circling a backwater G class star.
The appearance of "fine tuning" is that stars and rocks are able to form at all, that the universe has any kind of structure. If such-and-such constant were different, elements can't form. If such-and-such constant were different, the universe would have imploded within microseconds. In my opinion, the argument is based on thinking that structure is "special" somehow: of course we would think that, since we are structured.
@@Vernon-Robber if stars and rocks weren't able to be formed and it imploded, we wouldn't be here to discuss it. So we are back to the puddle analogy. Isn't is amazing that we fit so well in the little tiny hole we find ourselves in?
@@Vernon-RobberWhy? If they didn’t exist we wouldn’t talk about it. If things were different… They would be different and we’d be discussing that version. If things were different maybe humans would be the same as they are now, or wouldn’t exist. Speculative ignorance doesn’t equal “fine tuning”. It’s still something you’d have to demonstrate and show how, why, and by who. We can sit here all week and think about different ways things could happen.
@@USCanDoBetter To be clear, I hold no value in the fine tuning argument, I don't need to demonstrate anything. I am steel-manning the argument. The OP made it about the small fraction of the universe available for human habitability, I think that is irrelevant to "fine tuning". Perhaps I was not clear in my dismissal of fine tuning, in a way I was restating the puddle argument: we think that structure is "special" because we are structured. Either that or people are not reading what I'm writing.
Gods started on Mount Olympus, then moved to the Stars, then to outer space, then to out of space and finally out of time. And then created billions of galaxies with billions of Stars with billions of planets and only one planet with life? You're kidding, right? I love science fiction, but that is too much. Oh, and 1 god loves us but will punish nonbelievers for eternity? Got it, lol
The most basic element is hydrogen. It's the simplest and lightest element, consisting of just one proton and one electron .no God. The next element after hydrogen is helium. Helium has two protons, two neutrons, and two electrons. No God needed .The element that comes after helium on the periodic table is lithium. It has three protons, three neutrons, and three electrons. This process go's on all the way up we know how they all bond then comes the bonding of the elements next one up from that is The next stable element formed by bonding after hydrogen gas (H2) is lithium, which can bond with other elements to form various compounds. This process happens naturally we know how they all form from 1 atom it can form all the complex chemicals we see all of them .we know that complex chemicals form to make what we would call life .we know how that made more and more complex forms ..we have it in the fossil record. We know how long the time periods lasted what aminals lived at that time how they become more complex. We have named the time periods and we can trace progress with fossils and now backed up by what we could already see in the fossil recored by DNA .we have more data on evolution than it takes to watch the terminator trilogy. To try and deny it is like watching the terminator trilogy and calling it Harry Potter.
I like Tracy's card layout analogy because it demonstrates that this is only significant or compelling within the contexts of the rules of a game where there are goals. Or in the real life in the context of aiming for our specific existence. Removing the assumption of intent or desire. Renders the results wholly unremarkable.
@@dwightfitch3120 Open your eyes. Every created thing is evidence. Not one thing that ever existed or exists today ever came about being from nothing. There is more to life than what meets the eye. Things that can be seen are temporal, things that cannot be seen are eternal. I know it's hard for some people to wrap the finite mind around that truth. Denying the truth will never make the truth go away.
@@MaxDoll The Spirit of truth testifies that there is a spirit world. Evil testifies that there are evil spirits. Love testifies that there is a loving creator God/Jesus Christ. Love is stronger than hate.
@@paulgemme6056 A loving creator who has condemned most of humanity to hell because of the actions of 2 people who were incapable of knowing their actions were wrong. What is your definition of 'love'?
@zapkvr You seem to have missed the bigger point. Theists assert the universe is fine tuned for life ... by an "all loving" God. It would be really weird for any parent who manifests as "chaotic, nihilistic, and brutal" to be called "all-loving".
@@zapkvrWhy fine tune it for life if it remains horribly chaotic and brutal. In fact, if ur all powerful, why bother fine tuning at all? Can’t ur very will sustain it all?
Theists say that the universe seems fine tuned, and they offer God as an explanation. When one asks them what they mean, they say that constants of the universe (like the strenth of gravity or that of the electromagnetic force) wouldn't result in a universe like the one we find ourselves in, if they had different values. Firstly, note that by saying that, theists necessarily mean that the laws of nature are fixed, and the outcome of those fixed laws operating on different constants would produce a different universe. By claiming that it was God who fine tuned those constants, they are assuming that the laws of nature are beyond the control of God. Fine tuning is, by definition, designing or modifying something in order to achieve a desired goal against external physical constraints. For some reason (boredom? loneliness?), God wants to make a universe exactly in the way our universe is, so he fine tunes the constants to achieve this with the fixed laws of nature that he can't change. And this "explains" why the constants have the values they have. Of course, theists would chew off one of their own limbs rather than get trapped into admitting that God is subject to the laws of nature. So what they will say instead is that God also created the laws of nature in such a way that they would produce this exact universe with the values God selected. What they don't realize is that this is not fine tuning anymore. If God is not subject to his creation (the laws of nature), then god isn't fine tuning against anything. To put this another way, if God knows *that* a set of chosen constants will certainly work, then he knows *why* they will certainly work. This either implies he knows of a pre-existing framework on which those constants will work, or that he knows that any constants will work, which isn't fine tuning. Of course, once again, theists would chew off one of their own limbs rather than get trapped into admitting that God doesn't know if or why anything will work. Secondly, note how this has zero actual explanatory power. There is no mechanism provided to explain how laws of nature are created or how constants get the values they get. It's the same lack of explanation we find in every argument from ignorance: I don't know, therefore God, and don't ask how, it's magic. Well, in the history of human knowledge, all explanations we ever found turned out to have one thing in common: There are not magic. We have attributed everything to gods doing magic, and then we explained it and it's no longer magic. We did that with fire, rivers, mountains, volcanoes, lightning, the weather, earthquakes, the earth, the stars and all plants and all animals, including ourselves. At a certain point, we should learn to say "I don't know" when we don't know, and not follow this with "therefore".
As an analogy… The number of possible ways to order a pack of 52 cards is '52! ' (“52 factorial”) which means multiplying 52 by 51 by 50… all the way down to 1. The number you get at the end is 8×10^67 (8 with 67 '0's after it), essentially meaning that a randomly shuffled deck has never been seen before and will never be seen again… we don’t know how many combinations could produce life, but we know it must be at least one for someone to notice, we don’t know how many deals happened before, nor will come after, all can be done by pure randomness without the ability of a God
All I know is that when I play online solitaire, this effectively infinite number of random deals have an approximate 50/50 chance of having already been played by other people. One had even been played by me. So much for improbability.
@@jb888888888 True, but I take the point of the first respondent, about the fact that the stacked half of the pack is selected (or not) one at a time, reducing the odds considerably. I was already aware that the number of permutations was considearbly greater than the number of stars in the visible universe which is approx 1 septillion (1 followed by 24 0's) That fact alone ought to suggest that this little speck, orbiting just one of them is nothing special.
The odds of winning the lottery are 1 in 300,000,000. Happens all the time. Just because you lack the ability to grasp large expanses of time, or that it only takes one successful event for life to come forth during that large expanse of time, in no way equals magical space wizard. That is a completely separate claim that requires its own evidence. I could say everything you just said, but replace "god" with literally anything else (fairies, leprechauns, aliens, etc.), and the claim would have just as much weight to it. None.
It will always be circular reasoning to try and use tuning, design, or creation to prove a tuner, designer, or creator. The designer proves the design, not the other way around.
@@JimCastleberryThe only way design could ever be the best explanation is if you have a designer to start with. Take that away, and design can never be the best explanation.
@@JimCastleberry Your gravity example is just a word salad. We do not demonstrate that gravity exists by appealing to gravity. We demonstrate gravity by doing experiments that show the predicted effect of gravity. If "X" is true, "Y" should happen. We repeat with many "Y" so we confirm that "X" is true. What experiment can you do to show the effect of design? What prediction can you make to sow that design is true? Prove design without appealing to a designer. Give us one solid argument. How is the universe designed?
@@JimCastleberry I've noticed that you use "lying" in an unconventional way, to criticize (without counterargument) claims with which you disagree. That is not lying. Lying involves deliberately misleading statements of fact. Such as "you are lying" in response to an argument. Don't get me wrong. It's great for you to put your ineptitude on display and drive up the ratings too. But you really need to up your game as far as sophistry is concerned. You give the impression of an unhappy incel living in his parents's basement and desperate to be taken seriously. If you worked harder on your rhetoric, you might stand a chance at that, but honestly you'll have to broaden your repertoire a little.
How refreshing it is to listen to a conversion where the caller is actually trying to reason and is looking for explanations. How refreshing it is to listen to a conversation where the caller is actually trying to engage instead of repeating a script. Cuddos to the three of you.
He actually gets to the heart of the problem when he says that there's no reason to think that the way that the constants are is necessary. That's not true. The truth is that we don't know that they could possibly be any other way. That's just speculation. Until you can prove that the constants COULD be any other way then the argument from "design" is just pretending that there is a problem so that your imaginary friend can solve it.
Not even that lucky. The universe, according, to our best estimates has a diameter of 93 BILLION light years. That's big, bigger than our human minds can even comprehend. Way way bigger than our minds can comprehend. This universe has around 200 billion to 2 trillion GALAXIES. Each of these galaxies contains from a 100 million to 100 trillion stars. Each of these stars most likely has at least 2-3 planets orbiting around it. Our own star system contains 8 planets. Life could evolve on any of these planets which happen to have the conditions just right. Even if the probability of life is astronomically low, the universe is so astronomically big that somewhere in it, life is bound to occur at least once, or maybe even a bunch of times!
At 23min or so Brian accepts that the universe seems to be eternal, etc, all the properties he assigns to his magical fairy, but he can't accept that the same is true without his magical fairy, or assigns the same properties to his magical fairy!
No, man, don't forget that God is perfect and omnipotent but if you play with yourself you create cancer and destroy His plans with sin. What a powerful deity.
Oh Jeffrey... If your Jesus doesn't exist you just lived a life of sufference hoping for something better after it and died without truly placing importance on this one. If your Jesus exists you are kissing the ring of the mafia boss that just burned down your house and terminated your family and told you "love me cause I could do much worse to you". Honestly you should be hoping for the former at this point.
If everything is so fine tuned then why do we constantly have to terraform our environment to actually suit our needs and turn on the AC when we done lol, plus more then half of the stuff we do is keep back and away all these animal insects deer and rodents which were fairly well adapted to their environment before we came along and changed/ tuned it our damn selves because it wasn't ready for us.
Fine-tuning is a superb example of a Shabby Friar joke, or grammitcally a non sequiter. Abraham Lincoln once came up with this kind of joke when he observed that it was amazing to him that man's leg's were just long enuf to reach the ground.4
The power of the resurrection is evidence that God/Jesus Christ is who he says he is. Jesus Christ is risen indeed! Jesus Christ is the King of Glory! The only name by which a man can be saved. Glory to his name forever and forever. Nothing but the blood of Christ Jesus. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Fine tuning is just a terrible argument. It implies the laws of physics can be tuned when they cannot, like if gravity were 1% stronger, what does that even mean? Its just saying, "If things were different, they would be different." 😂
Was our Universe God`s first and only failure? Or are we as close as he ever got. Maybe God`s failures are called the multiverse? What a Colossal Calamitous Clutz, this God!
@@nsf001-3 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
47:33 hell god didn’t even need to kill himself to create the universe, why did he have to hill himself just to forgive animals he created for using the free will he gave them?
Terrific articulation of something I've always struggled to explain about why the fine-tuning argument is flawed. It's essentially a teleological viewpoint. The way I've always thought of it is that any single outcome, in a nondeterministic system, is equally "miraculous."
Finely tuned universe is laughable. Even this rock we live on is barely habitable for our frail bodies. We need to harness the power of science and technology, and contain nontoxic gasses to explore the 75% of the surface covered in water. Need to separate oxygen from the 90% of the rest of the toxic atmosphere to explore up mountains, down in caves. The earth is 4000 miles to the core, we've gone down a mile in the crust, or some 8 miles through the water. Need special containment suits to go either up or down for any extended period. Most of the animals here will eat you, most of the atmosphere will kill you, we can only exist in about 8% of the volume of earth. I'd say earth isn't even tuned for us, we've mucked out an existence against all odds here, the universe would sooner see us dead, than see us explore it.
And odds can be figured because we know how many cards there are, what each one is and what all the possible hands would be. We know none of that about the universe
@@dwightfitch3120 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
@@dwightfitch3120 Well... it appears to have happened by natural means in THIS universe, and since we have no other universes to compare this one to, I guess we'll just have to operate off of a 100% success rate until proven otherwise.
Fine tuning argues for a designer that is not a god. A god wouldn't have to mold life to fit certain requirements. Fine tuning is creating within confines that the designer cannot alter.
@wyldink1 Yes This. I didn't think of this. The "first cause" or "fine tuning" argument , to me, seems to be them wanting it both ways, illogically. What was the "first cause" for a complexly evolving intending god ? Or what "fine tuned" it to be "just right" for a god to appear ? Either "something" needed to FIRST cause the god, AND fine tuned it for that god. AND ALSO something needed to first cause & fine tune for this "simple" unbalanced universe. OR NEITHER.. There was never a need for a first cause or fine tuning in the first place. Maybe "nothing" doesn't exist & the universe "fell" into this way. 😁☮️🌏
Or what if some eternal natural existence can only produce expanding universes with certain fine tuned properties. So universes that continue are selected for and those without just the right properties are selected against and don't materialize.
The story about tuned universe is totally weird. First of all, it proves God sucks at planning and resource management. He creates a single planet in one day, then on day four he creates billions of star systems in our galaxy alone, not to mention black holes, neutron stars, dark matter and two trillions of other galaxies in observable universe. If that still makes sense to someone, I'm really surprised.
The example of the cards is totally flawed, because *we know what the potential cards are.* These people who are proposing that it is “unlikely” that the constants of the universe are what they are … haven’t shown us the universe’s other cards. How do they know other constants are even possible? Show that first and then you can discuss the probability of a given subset.
Why would an all-powerful god need to fine-tune anything? He could make the universe exactly like he wanted without "spinning dials" to set the various constants.
Our universe can simply be one of a gigantic multitude of parallel universes where these universes have mathematical laws that don't produce human sentient life. Because we have no other universes to compare to, we cannot say our universe if the only one, and because it is "fine tuned" for us to exist, it must have been created by an intelligence who is aware of itself, of what it is doing, and aware of causality. Therefore to say that our universe is created by God because we exist, not because we exist because of random chance, is making a supposition without taking into consideration that there can be an infinite number of other universes out there. A commenter said it perfectly succinctly: "Every puddle is fine-tuned to exactly fit the hole it's in". Our universe, by chance, came into existence or may be it has always been that way, as a round hole whereas the other universes are in an infinite other shapes. If God had indeed created our universe with fine-tuned mathematical laws so that we could live in it, why create it with an expiration date? Sooner or later, billions or billions of year from now, as the level of entropy progresses, our universe will cease to exist when the last photon will decay into nothingness. There is no logical purpose of creating a process knowing that it will have an end date.
theres a more basic issue that escapes apologists. WHY bother with fine-tuning if you’re the all powerful creator of the universe? it makes god beholden to the laws of physics.
I find the fine tuning argument funny. Everything we know about the earths and the universes history, life exists despite the universes best efforts, not because of them. So by that reasoning, theyr god hates life.
You know, I probably sound really stupid, and maybe I'm simplifying things, but like.....ARENT WE TALKING ABOUT AN OMNIPOTENT OMNISCIENT BEING THAT APPARENTLY LOVES US AND WANTS US TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM?! I mean seriously, if all that is true, then like....WHY is all this talk about "evidence for god" and apologists and interpreting and context and all these other mental gymnastics even a THING?! Like seriously, this shit has been discussed for like, THOUSANDS of years and the arguments just keep getting dumber and dumber, more and more bullshit to try to prove god and make him seem like a moral being, justifying genocide and slavery. Its just such an uphill battle for these people the more this shit goes on. You hear a new yet TIRED way to justify God's existence and excuse horrible shit in the bible every day, and it never gets anywhere, it just sounds MORE evil trying to justify it. All this "you need to read it in context bullshit." None of that shit in context makes sense for an all loving god, who can also see the future and find better, less bloody outcomes. But my main point is, ALL THESE MENTAL GYMNASTICS COULD LITERALLY BE AVOIDED, IF GOD LITERALLY JUST POPPED INTO EXISTENCE, AND HAD A NICE CHAT WITH US. He could literally do it any second, to anyone, he's omnipotent and omniscience, he knows a way to do it without violating that free will dogshit (as if he's never done it before). And I'm not even saying he has to CONVINCE people to worship him, he should just try to prove his existence in a way that people can't refute. Surely right now God sees all these apologists twisting their heads into knots to make new ways to explain his existence right? Surely he can see they only work for stupid people who are too afraid to let go of their faith. I think the very fact that they have to come up with all this nonsense in itself just PROVES that this specific god just doesn't exist.
I couldn't have put it better myself. Either God doesn't exist, or he engages in contorted thinking and why should we imagine we could ever figure it out? I mean..take animal sacrifice. How is it Bible-believing theists can't see that this was obviously a way for the priesthood to get the people to bring them food? Now, it's done via tithes and offerings...the priesthood is still living off the largess of the parishioners. And then the whole "Christ dies for my sins" is OBVIOUSLY a different form of animal sacrifice...WHY would a God even contemplate coming to earth as himself to be a sacrifice to himself to appease himself for sins against him? Can an omnipotent God not merely forgive sins of a repentant person and redeem them? Seems a crock to me too. OF courser the last thing apologists want is for God to make himself known because they would be out or a job. The entire point of church would immediately collapse as a mechanism for dispensing the word of God since we'd all have his word right there in our minds.
I northern Europe their are Stinging Nettles, which sting and hurt; they are usually are found near a kind of Dock Leaf , which is rubbed on the sting, comfort and ease te sting ; fine tuning/ why not just get rid of the nettles?
I can't understand eternity, beginning of everything or existence, therefore a magical fairy who can have no beginning, can always exist and create everything. That makes sense (as long as you don't worry about where the magical fairy came from).
No, I think it was the Boogeyman. Everyone thinks he just lives under your bed to scare you every night, but instead is the creator and fine tuner of the Universe. I wrote a book about it, and you can't prove it wrong. Checkmate theists.
Wait, how is that a checkmate to theists? Wouldn't it be just in line with fine tuning and theism? Sure, it wouldn't be the god most of them want, but it's *some* god either way. So... Theism?
I think fine tuning assumes that the way things are is the only way they could be to sustain life or produce complexity. Just because the earth has all these interweaving elements that sustain life doesn't mean it's in an ideal form. It has been claimed tectonic activity is crucial for life. Does that mean the earth is fine tuned? I assume an omni creator wouldn't be constrained to the specifications we think of for 'essential for life'. He could have, probably in many different ways, created a world where life isn't dependent on tectonic activity. And then we wouldn't have things like earthquakes ans volcanic activity that take so many lives. I don't think the theists realize the irony that their fine tuning argument puts their god in a box and makes him limited.
Dingleberry deleted his thread after I exposed him. Classic creationist coward. (This is an example of alliteration for anyone struggling in English class)
@@ApatheticFish3667 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
This guy at least seems to be both honest and sincere --- a rarity on this show. I can see having a serious discussion with him and not ending up pulling my hair out in handfuls. He seems capable of questioning his beliefs and perhaps even learning clearer ways of thinking.
Since matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed, I believe that the universe, which is made of matter/energy, has always existed. Therefor, the universe did not have a beginning. The big bang is not a beginning of the universe. It was the changing of the shape of the universe.
Matter can be created and destroyed or turned.onto energy. Energy eg sunlight is turned into matter by plants. Food is matter. The body turns it into energy.
@@vetinaris1297 Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing: matter/energy. Matter can be changed into energy and energy can be change into matter, but neither the matter nor the energy would be destroyed, only changed. The total matter/energy remains the same. It always has and always will.
One amazing point I read was that Darwin noted, “…in nature there are no edges or hard lines (we are) snapshots of chaos in motion.” That from a book, “Why Fish Don’t Exist.” What we morph to from here, who knows?! That thought image is amazing to me. The idea my baby photos in a sense are not me, at least not any longer and evolutionarily imagine the same, not us any longer.
Evil is finely tuned by God. Everything is fine tuned by God. And a good Wednesday Morning 🌞 AXP Fans and Theists ❤❤❤ Peace Love Empathy From Australia 🇦🇺✌️😎👍
@bernardleger8478 oh that's easy...God is the justfiication. Its a circular argument, you can't win or even find an edge to get a grip on. Or it could be the King of The Pixies said it was so.
Intrinsic probability of theism 😂😂😂 the confusion is strong . How do you calculate probability on dumbeldore or dracula or Rumpelstilschin?! (Or whaterver his name is)🤔🤔🤔
I find it amazing that they need an answer for the origin of the universe but are completely content without needing answers for why or how. God is needed for matter to exist. Why and how? Mysterious ways! If god is perfect why does imperfection exist? Because unknown master plan! If god created the universe for us why is 99.99999999999999% uninhabitable? Unknowable master plan! Nonsensical doesn’t even come close to the compilation of presumption, assertion, maybe’s and could be’s of this 🐴💩.
The universe is actually a pretty hostile place for life. The fact it is unimaginably vast means statistically some life exists. This is not evidence for « fine tuning ».
Either the universe was fine tuned and thus life is likely or, by the contra-positive, life is unlikely and hence not fine tuned - structuring the implication any other way means that fine tuning is not a causal factor in the development of life. AND the observable universe is about ninety-nine point 9999999999 9999999999 9999999999 , wait, not done 9999999999 9999999999 9999999999 99999999 - percent lethal to life by volume. That is not a fine tuned universe. SMH
5:22 it should be said also that if I deal out cards at random again and again but only allow people to come see when I’ve dealt all spades, that’s analogous to a series of universes coming into existence and the only life forms that wonder about fine tuning are trapped within the universes that can sustain life lol
You could boil down this argument objectively as saying, "Had the universe unfolded any differently than it did, the present state of the universe would be different in direct proportion." While that is true, so what? What makes the universe as it is, so objectively special that if it were different, it would matter? As soon as you strip away that flawed assumption, the argument falls apart. Odds become meaningless. The odds of anything being what, where and when it is, are astronomical, when you add up all the variables responsible for it being there.
It's like saying, if you live in the desert, "look how perfectly made this is to us, the almighty even provides water at an oasis after a long struggle to us! I can't imagine how it could be different!". But It's objectively still easier to thrive in a temperate climate. If the universe would be sliglthy different, it could also be way more compatible with us, or something else. A lack of imagination, isn't a proof of god.
@@vertigo4236 The compatibility to the universe by humans is a relevant criticism, but that's kind of the point. What makes human existence so objectively grand that it matters? You're right that if the universe was created with us in mind, it's sure seems like a waste of real-estate and time for that matter, but I see it as being beside the point. Let's say the universe did unfold differently and rather than humans some other type of sentient life came to be that didn't basically feed on the carcasses of other life, reproduce and die. But oh well, the universe got us. For a relatively brief instant anyway.
If the universe was different, either we would be having exactly this same conversation about how unlikely that universe is, or we wouldn't exist at all. We wouldn't know about those universes with no life in them, so we can just ignore them.
Since we do not know what causes universes to form, we cannot say any outcome is unlikely. Moreover, every argument for fine tuning that I have heard discusses what might happen if this ONE constant were changed. What if they were ALL changed is it not possible that they could work together in a way totally different than ours do to produce a result that some inhabitants of that universe would see as significant? This caller talks about stars and planets - what makes them necessary? Wouldn't a universe where every bit of it was conducive to life be even more amazing?
I have a great analogy for those kinds of discussions! I have a dice, the dice has an unknown amount of sides, on each side there is a number, we know nothing about the numbers that are on the dice, I rolled it and it landed on a 7, what were the odds? Every answer besides "I don't know" is based purely on assumptions, that's how people come up with the probability of our universe being the way it is with the sample size of exactly one, which is absolutely pointless.
I think a deck of cards is not a useful analogy when discussing fine tuning. We know we can get different cards, we don’t know the physical constants can be different at all. We know the different cards have equal probability, we don’t know the physical constants can be different at all, let alone their probabilities.
At 18:19 the Kalam, is outdated. In a more modern form, it should say “everything that exists has a cause for its existence, and that cause always follows the laws of quantum physics and relativity, both special and general. The universe began to exist therefore it has a cause that likely follows the same physical laws.”
There's too many arguments against fine tuning that it's widely accepted there is no fine tuning. Unless God was stupid enough to make our throat an area for air and food to go down. God would be really stupid making us a immune system and then make virus' that attack immune systems. That would be a real wasteful bit of effort. So stupid.
Do all humanists believe their origin or destination is insignificant? As an atheist, I can think the natural world is significant because it resulted in life...life that became sentient and ultimately my life. And as a sentient being, I and others can create our own meaning/value. That is significant to me. I don't know why my and other's lives wouldn't be significant to me/us. What makes life significant to you?
@@possumface2425 "What are you going to do with yourself while you live out your destiny Tim?" Tim didn't answer my question either. The point is there is no significance even in the existence of God UNLESS someone...each individual creates in their own mind the significance God represents. IOW humanist or theist...we each create meaning in our own minds. Nothing else can do it for us....not even God. It would seem to me that those needing to invent meaning via God are just deficient in their own personal ability to deal with life.
Ultimately, my life and all of existence here on Earth is insignificant. The Earth could evaporate today, and tomorrow the universe would not give a shit. So what? To me, my life is significant. Because it's mine. Just like to me, my cat is significant. To others, she's not. I don't care. Their views are not my concern.
@@HuxtableK "To me, my life is significant. Because it's mine. " Exactly, and even those who imagine a God...a supreme being...are STILL creating their own significance in their minds and for themselves by imagining a God that (they think) makes their life significant. Why should the existence of a god make anyone's life any more or less significant? We're of no real value...just a manufactured creation...a toy, a plaything of the gods. Sure we can say we're merely accidents of a natural world. But that in itself is spectacular. We are unique. We may be the only sentient beings in the entire universe. But if we're the mere construct of an arbitrary god who decided what and how, we're not unique at all. We're actually quite a mundane product created intentionally with flaws and limitations...not special at all since he could have done better but chose not to.
@@HuxtableK My friend, you cling to the notion that your life has significance simply because you choose to believe it, much like you cherish your cat while dismissing the views of others. But if the universe is truly indifferent, your sense of meaning is nothing more than a comforting lie, a flimsy construct that will eventually collapse under the weight of reality. The love you feel for your life and your cat points to something far deeper than personal preference; it hints at a higher truth, a divine purpose that you are choosing to ignore. By denying this greater reality, you are shutting yourself off from the true source of meaning, leaving yourself adrift in a world where your self-made significance is as fragile as a soap bubble, destined to burst and leave you with nothing but emptiness. I urge you to consider that real meaning is not something you can fabricate out of thin air, but something that is given, grounded in a reality far beyond yourself.
The proposition of fine tuning and the question of existence from a cause, are never resolve no matter how you talk about it. When your discussion is over nothing is being resolved. I will post this long narrative. Regarding the origin of things, in quantum physics it could be said that energy exists forever since the law of conservation of energy states that " energy could neither be created nor destroyed it only transforms from one to another" in which sense it means energy is there forever. Second thing is that consciousness is inherent in nature in the quantum realm as shown in the experiment of the double slit board where it seems that particles have consciousness in my view. To support that claim many experiments show that water in jars reacts to words spoken to them. Another thing is that air seems to respond to blow more when farmers whistle when they want more air, which led me to conclude that particles at quantum level have inherent consciousness or in totality the universe is conscious. The theory of multiverse also would in conjunction with this view, it relates that in any space multiverse exists. Considering it collectively, energy and consciousness are inherent in nature. With these energy and consciousness it could originate species and also made the galaxies to arrange by themselves. Being conscious they could evolve by themselves, yes? A computer could do a tremendous job with just a binary combination of gate zero and one. Compared to conscious particles, consciousness surely would be much more advanced and amazing which is the primality of genes and DNA,where particles like different sorts of electrons, protons, gamma, theta or what not clinging to it forming different kinds of species. This process underwent a billion years in the past. This is a challenge for theists and more simple than what you are speculating to prove that there is what you claim is the “all powerful and merciful God”, go to cancer hospital and look for 20 patients and ask God for complete healing, that is the way if we want scientific proof like testing a cure of covid, yes? Then repeat it ten times to clear doubt. Ok do it. If you couldn’t do it simply means you are embracing a lie your theory is incorrect. Thus there is no "all powerful and merciful God", no hell, heaven and rapture which is made to control people.
It all boils down to 2 different kind of people, thinking and non thinking people, the non thinking people don't ask questions they just believe it because someone told them so. The thinking people ask questions and want answers, or solutions to the problem.why would a god want to kill a person just to bring him back to life, why kill him in the first place?
*No, the universe wasn't fine tuned by a god, but contrary to what the vast majority of commenters seem to think, so called fine tuning is a bit of a puzzle in science that physicists discuss and take seriously. It isn't just something that the theists just dreamed up. Clearly the universe isn't fine tuned for LIFE. But if the physical constants, especially the cosmological constant, were much different, matter itself would not have been able to form. Personally, I think the multiverse is the simplest and most likely explanation for so called fine tuning.*
Right...and why would a creator bother to fine tune it if it was going to go ahead and create life itself anyways? Life created by an almighty creator could exist under any conditions or under no (physical/material/natural) conditions rendering fine tuned-ness useless.
For the card exemple to really be analogous to the evolution vs design question it would have to go like this: -here are 13 cards I drew from a standard 54 cards playing deck. -Oh all are spades ! -Do you think I cheated? -Well it's more likely. -What actually happened is that I kept dealing myself 13 cards from a 54 cards deck until I actually got this result and kept the hand to show you.
Another issue I’ve always had and it was brought up a little bit, death is a construct of an omnipotent creature for his creation, they would have no use for it. It’d be like an off switch on a computer. So how could a God die for three days? Also, why would it be considered a sacrifice for a God? It is no sacrifice, three days out of forever? And it’s three days of taking a nap, the closest as a human I would be able to describe an omnipotent creature being dead for three days.
I can't stand it when someone is missing or someone has been murdered and people say I'm praying for you how do you think God didn't know this was happening when it was happening and if a child is missing God knew it was going to happen and knows where the child is why would you think you would have to tell this God that you need help
Indeed, they seem to think their god is less capable and less concerned than the average law enforcement officer or even the average person who, even though THEY cannot affect someone's free will, manage to work to solve crimes and help people.
How can you compare when there is only one, or many ones. Whether we ask what the universe is (big one) or what experience is (the many ones) the answer is the same isnt it? Theres really nothing ultimately we can compare it too, as in order to compare, we must be outside of. We cant think out of the box because we are the box. This made me think of "as above, so below"
Even if one “believes” in a designer, we have to make a monumental leap to attach that designer to any one god.
This is one of the best episodes I have seen by you guys. Thanks.
This is an old argument I've used before:
I throw a deck of cards on the floor. When they settle, I tell people the cards resemble a Quasdile. When they ask what a Quasdile is, I tell them it's something that looks like how the cards currently look.
I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
Good one lol very true what Canadians and maybe Mexicans know what it is, good analogy though.
Brilliant!!
Brian was a good caller. Stayed respectful and Mat didn't have an aneurism. Didn't agree with him but good debate. 👍
This was not a debate.
Dill's angry man routine is getting boring
@@zapkvr Go away, then.
@@RideAcrossTheRiver I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
The probability of me being alive and the universe existing is 100%
Did you die in the last 13 hours??
When we think to ourselves "Now I'm gonna stop myself thinking", it is still ME thinking that thought. So "I" exist.
And if I CHOOSE to ignore reality & jump in front of a train ( as if it's not real ) then I will get hit by that train..
So reality is as "real" as there is.
😁☮️🌏
@@akirameru675 still here!
Unless it's all just a simulation.
@@chetsavage2536 True. But in all the ways that count, that would "feel" exactly the same.
So, unless there ever shows up some "ghosts in the machine" etc, the most parsimonious belief is that reality is real..
But you're still true in what you say.
😁☮️🌏
edit- spelling
"The Universe Is FINE TUNED By God"
- By who?
- God
- What is that?
- Everyone knows what god is.
- Everyone knows what the concept of god is, but is God more than a concept?
- Millions of people believe in God for thousands of years, how could all of those people be wrong?
- Those people follow religions which have a function in society and religions use the concept of god, but never proved it to be more than a concept.
- But people believe in God and they have a personal relationship with God.
- Yes, with the concept of it.
- You are not fun.
- I know.
A concept, and ONLY a concept, is all "God" is.
The truth sucks sometimes. I happen to like it.
Is this supposed to be a clever post?
@@ShroudoftheLogos
No, it supposed to be a spontaneous post.
A clever post would be a lot longer.
@@LordLemoncake dull
I actually appreciate that caller, he understands his arguments better than most other and is trying to be honest, sure religion poisons his mind but he is trying. Hope he is on our side today
So you think God doesn't exist because of religion lol?
@realilty no, I don't believe a god exists because there isn't a single shred of legitimate evidence for the existence of one. Yahweh definitely doesn't exist considering it's attributes are literally impossible in reality. You should go back to the shallow end of the pool before you drown.
Btw, we've actually studied near death out of body experiences and they are a crock of sh1t. Makes sense that you would think that's some sort of topic atheists should avoid. 😂
I have never been a practicing theist, I realised I was an atheist when I was 8 years old when I was listening to my aunts and uncles and my parents discussing a man down the street who was an atheist, I asked my mam what that was and she told me and you could have heard a pin drop when I said, 'oh, I'm an atheist then', everyone was staring at me and I said well I don't believe there is a 'god' as my RE teacher was lying to us.
We were being told of things that happened in that dumb book and I just couldn't accept what I was being told, I was constantly thrown out of the class for being 'disruptive' as they put it, all I did was ask questions but they didn't like the questions or my responses, by the way I'm over 71 so this was a time when being an atheist was frowned upon.
Out of the mouth of babes! I’d love to have seen their faces
I'm a little older than you, but my only connection with religion up to the age of 12 was a once-a-week class when someone would come to our school and we'd have religion classes.
To me, at that age, the stories were not very entertaining especially compared to my favourite supernatural books that were Norse Myths and Legends, and 1001 Arabian Nights.
I'm from a mostly secular home although my father was a non practicing Catholic. On occasion he would buy me these children's bible story books but even at the age of 6 or 7 I very much treated them as all my other fictional books from the likes of Roald Dahl, Enid Blyton etc. Although my father believed he did not go to church nor did I ever set foot in a church and he did not force his religion on me. My mother is an atheist and although she does not believe in any God she is highly spiritual and does believe in the supernatural. I'm the only person that I know of in my family and friend group who does not believe in the supernatural full stop and am a secular humanist materialist.
@@iminabrons If people aren't indoctrinated from an early age most people will not fall into the religious trap, I'm glad like me you didn't.
I agree the norse myths were really interesting, I'm of viking decent so it was great to listen to it all.
Good on you. I went to catholic school and decided to reject all this biblical nonesense when I was 12.
The physical constants aren’t dials on your oven. You don’t turn them up and down to see what you get. They’re like pi. You observe a thing in the universe -circles and spheres. You decide to measure the radius and the circumference. You get C = 2πr. We could ask how could the universe exist if someone intelligent didn’t set π to 3.14159…? That’s like asking, “What if pillows?”
No, not a being, but matter would not have been able to form if the constants were not just right. Doesn't mean a god did it, it's just a fact.
@@golden-63 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
Fine tuning to me is essentially. I’ll deal some cards, then make up some rules to make those cards win.
Calvinball!
Fine tuning is inherently circular. Fine tuning implies intent. Intent implies an intender. That’s beginning with your conclusion.
Theists were raised to believe in God but when they get older they look for these apologetics to confirm the beliefs they were raised in.
No, it’s really not. That’s a gross oversimplification. Do you understand the difference between inference and circular reasoning? It also doesn’t necessarily begin with the conclusion of intent. Rather, it questions “why are the parameters of the universe the way they are?”, and invites further inquiry and exploration into the possible mechanism at play when it comes to the philosophical/metaphysical nature of reality.
@@EtsySpellcaster-fy3slthe phrase itself, “fine tuning”, implies purpose. Why not start with the phrase “random chance”
Thesit alert! @@EtsySpellcaster-fy3sl
that's begging the question, not circular reasoning.
David John Welman had an excellent response to the fine tuning argument, pointing out that for this argument to be persuasive, one must assume from the start that some thinking agent was behind the universe and intended that certain outcomes, like us existing- should be attained and therefore had to 'fine tune' things to ensure that they would.
Although in fact this would seem to preclude a creator that is omnipotent- such a being would not need to 'fine tune' in order to attain its objectives.
The observed universe controlled by a tinker god could be literal chaos from our perspective everywhere we looked outside of what we are directly effected by, consistent or even same order throughout even our galaxy would not even be necessary.
Probably one of the strongest and undefeated atheistic tagteams ever
😊😊
Well thats not true
@@zapkvr No. It's true. There has not been a loss to date.
@@charismauniversity9626 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
@@northernlight8857 God/Jesus Christ has already won.
Open your eyes. Every created thing is evidence. Not one thing that ever existed or exists today ever came about being from nothing. There is more to life than what meets the eye. Things that can be seen are temporal, things that cannot be seen are eternal. I know it's hard for some people to wrap the finite mind around that truth. Denying the truth will never make the truth go away.
The universe is fine tuned to the point where there's hardly anywhere in it that mankind can live.
Haha!!! that is perfect
Unfortunately it seems God didn't tune it finely enough
@@nsf001-3Yeah, if It began, why didn’t It finish?
Cats are definitely the purpose of the universe.
😃
Hail Bastet
They are fine-tuned to meow. LOL...
My cat certainly seems to agree with you.
I could not agree more
Fine tuned birth defects, animal extinctions, mass starvation, and death.
99.9% of all species that have existed are now extinct on the earth.
That was the reset button being hit.
99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the universe being uninhabitable to us humans, yes, fine tuned indeed.
@@Blue-EyesWhitePrivilegeYou shot a little too high there. Your rounding is off. Need more 9’s 😉 haha
@@Blue-EyesWhitePrivilege By the time you factor in all the seas/Oceans/Mountains Deserts and Tundras the majority of the planet is uninhabitable for humans never mind the universe
Ah yes, the 'fine tuned' universe in which humans can only inhabit the few dry specks of land upon the thin crust of a ball of molten rock circling a backwater G class star.
The appearance of "fine tuning" is that stars and rocks are able to form at all, that the universe has any kind of structure. If such-and-such constant were different, elements can't form. If such-and-such constant were different, the universe would have imploded within microseconds.
In my opinion, the argument is based on thinking that structure is "special" somehow: of course we would think that, since we are structured.
Can't remember who said it, but "if anything the universe is fine tuned for black holes"
@@Vernon-Robber if stars and rocks weren't able to be formed and it imploded, we wouldn't be here to discuss it. So we are back to the puddle analogy. Isn't is amazing that we fit so well in the little tiny hole we find ourselves in?
@@Vernon-RobberWhy? If they didn’t exist we wouldn’t talk about it. If things were different… They would be different and we’d be discussing that version. If things were different maybe humans would be the same as they are now, or wouldn’t exist.
Speculative ignorance doesn’t equal “fine tuning”. It’s still something you’d have to demonstrate and show how, why, and by who. We can sit here all week and think about different ways things could happen.
@@USCanDoBetter To be clear, I hold no value in the fine tuning argument, I don't need to demonstrate anything. I am steel-manning the argument. The OP made it about the small fraction of the universe available for human habitability, I think that is irrelevant to "fine tuning".
Perhaps I was not clear in my dismissal of fine tuning, in a way I was restating the puddle argument: we think that structure is "special" because we are structured. Either that or people are not reading what I'm writing.
"God has a good reason for having people be non-believers." That will be tortured and tormented for eternity for being "non-believers". Got it!
So what is the reason?
I don't know. The caller Brian made the statement. @joshsheridan9511
@@kevinkoch-jj1uj I haven't got that far yet
But I bet he won't give a sensible reason.
Gods started on Mount Olympus, then moved to the Stars, then to outer space, then to out of space and finally out of time. And then created billions of galaxies with billions of Stars with billions of planets and only one planet with life? You're kidding, right? I love science fiction, but that is too much. Oh, and 1 god loves us but will punish nonbelievers for eternity? Got it, lol
The most basic element is hydrogen. It's the simplest and lightest element, consisting of just one proton and one electron .no God. The next element after hydrogen is helium. Helium has two protons, two neutrons, and two electrons. No God needed .The element that comes after helium on the periodic table is lithium. It has three protons, three neutrons, and three electrons. This process go's on all the way up we know how they all bond then comes the bonding of the elements next one up from that is The next stable element formed by bonding after hydrogen gas (H2) is lithium, which can bond with other elements to form various compounds. This process happens naturally we know how they all form from 1 atom it can form all the complex chemicals we see all of them .we know that complex chemicals form to make what we would call life .we know how that made more and more complex forms ..we have it in the fossil record. We know how long the time periods lasted what aminals lived at that time how they become more complex. We have named the time periods and we can trace progress with fossils and now backed up by what we could already see in the fossil recored by DNA .we have more data on evolution than it takes to watch the terminator trilogy. To try and deny it is like watching the terminator trilogy and calling it Harry Potter.
I like Tracy's card layout analogy because it demonstrates that this is only significant or compelling within the contexts of the rules of a game where there are goals.
Or in the real life in the context of aiming for our specific existence.
Removing the assumption of intent or desire. Renders the results wholly unremarkable.
if you’re the ALL-POWERFUL Deity responsible for creating the universe….WHY BOTHER with FINE-TUNING?
this makes god beholden to the LAWS of PHYSICS.
Yeah, I’ve often wondered why an all powerful entity would bother creating any infrastructure at all
@@dwightfitch3120 Open your eyes. Every created thing is evidence. Not one thing that ever existed or exists today ever came about being from nothing. There is more to life than what meets the eye. Things that can be seen are temporal, things that cannot be seen are eternal. I know it's hard for some people to wrap the finite mind around that truth. Denying the truth will never make the truth go away.
@@paulgemme6056 How do you know that something that cannot be observed even exists, let alone know that it is eternal?
@@MaxDoll The Spirit of truth testifies that there is a spirit world. Evil testifies that there are evil spirits. Love testifies that there is a loving creator God/Jesus Christ. Love is stronger than hate.
@@paulgemme6056 A loving creator who has condemned most of humanity to hell because of the actions of 2 people who were incapable of knowing their actions were wrong.
What is your definition of 'love'?
How is the universe “ fine tuned” this universe is chaotic and nihilistic and brutal. How is that “ fine tuned”?
And it's filled with evil humans, so if God fine tuned this BS then his instruments need to be recalibrated
You haven't understood the point at all. Theists assert the universe is fine tuned for life specifically conscious life.
@zapkvr
You seem to have missed the bigger point. Theists assert the universe is fine tuned for life ... by an "all loving" God.
It would be really weird for any parent who manifests as "chaotic, nihilistic, and brutal" to be called "all-loving".
@@zapkvrWhy fine tune it for life if it remains horribly chaotic and brutal. In fact, if ur all powerful, why bother fine tuning at all? Can’t ur very will sustain it all?
In a facetious way, I always say "The universe is on a continual mission to kill us."
The universe is fine tuned for EMPTY SPACE. There is WAY MORE EMPTY Space than ANYTHING ELSE.
This was an excellent conversation. The tone, scope and attentiveness was remarkable on all sides.
I know, right?
A civil conversation? No "F" bombs? What the heck?
Theists say that the universe seems fine tuned, and they offer God as an explanation.
When one asks them what they mean, they say that constants of the universe (like the strenth of gravity or that of the electromagnetic force) wouldn't result in a universe like the one we find ourselves in, if they had different values.
Firstly, note that by saying that, theists necessarily mean that the laws of nature are fixed, and the outcome of those fixed laws operating on different constants would produce a different universe.
By claiming that it was God who fine tuned those constants, they are assuming that the laws of nature are beyond the control of God.
Fine tuning is, by definition, designing or modifying something in order to achieve a desired goal against external physical constraints.
For some reason (boredom? loneliness?), God wants to make a universe exactly in the way our universe is, so he fine tunes the constants to achieve this with the fixed laws of nature that he can't change. And this "explains" why the constants have the values they have.
Of course, theists would chew off one of their own limbs rather than get trapped into admitting that God is subject to the laws of nature. So what they will say instead is that God also created the laws of nature in such a way that they would produce this exact universe with the values God selected. What they don't realize is that this is not fine tuning anymore. If God is not subject to his creation (the laws of nature), then god isn't fine tuning against anything.
To put this another way, if God knows *that* a set of chosen constants will certainly work, then he knows *why* they will certainly work. This either implies he knows of a pre-existing framework on which those constants will work, or that he knows that any constants will work, which isn't fine tuning.
Of course, once again, theists would chew off one of their own limbs rather than get trapped into admitting that God doesn't know if or why anything will work.
Secondly, note how this has zero actual explanatory power. There is no mechanism provided to explain how laws of nature are created or how constants get the values they get. It's the same lack of explanation we find in every argument from ignorance: I don't know, therefore God, and don't ask how, it's magic. Well, in the history of human knowledge, all explanations we ever found turned out to have one thing in common: There are not magic. We have attributed everything to gods doing magic, and then we explained it and it's no longer magic. We did that with fire, rivers, mountains, volcanoes, lightning, the weather, earthquakes, the earth, the stars and all plants and all animals, including ourselves.
At a certain point, we should learn to say "I don't know" when we don't know, and not follow this with "therefore".
Until you can demonstrate the universe could be any other way.
fine tuning isn't even an argument
As an analogy… The number of possible ways to order a pack of 52 cards is '52! ' (“52 factorial”) which means multiplying 52 by 51 by 50… all the way down to 1. The number you get at the end is 8×10^67 (8 with 67 '0's after it), essentially meaning that a randomly shuffled deck has never been seen before and will never be seen again… we don’t know how many combinations could produce life, but we know it must be at least one for someone to notice, we don’t know how many deals happened before, nor will come after, all can be done by pure randomness without the ability of a God
All I know is that when I play online solitaire, this effectively infinite number of random deals have an approximate 50/50 chance of having already been played by other people. One had even been played by me. So much for improbability.
@@alfresco8442Sounds like your solitaire game needs a better random number generator.
@@alfresco8442 Computers don't actually make random choices though, it's a simulation of randomness.
@@jb888888888 True, but I take the point of the first respondent, about the fact that the stacked half of the pack is selected (or not) one at a time, reducing the odds considerably.
I was already aware that the number of permutations was considearbly greater than the number of stars in the visible universe which is approx 1 septillion (1 followed by 24 0's)
That fact alone ought to suggest that this little speck, orbiting just one of them is nothing special.
The odds of winning the lottery are 1 in 300,000,000. Happens all the time. Just because you lack the ability to grasp large expanses of time, or that it only takes one successful event for life to come forth during that large expanse of time, in no way equals magical space wizard. That is a completely separate claim that requires its own evidence. I could say everything you just said, but replace "god" with literally anything else (fairies, leprechauns, aliens, etc.), and the claim would have just as much weight to it. None.
It will always be circular reasoning to try and use tuning, design, or creation to prove a tuner, designer, or creator. The designer proves the design, not the other way around.
@@JimCastleberryif you haven't demonstrated a designer, calling it a design at all is begging the question.
@@JimCastleberryThe only way design could ever be the best explanation is if you have a designer to start with. Take that away, and design can never be the best explanation.
@@JimCastleberry Your gravity example is just a word salad. We do not demonstrate that gravity exists by appealing to gravity. We demonstrate gravity by doing experiments that show the predicted effect of gravity. If "X" is true, "Y" should happen. We repeat with many "Y" so we confirm that "X" is true.
What experiment can you do to show the effect of design? What prediction can you make to sow that design is true?
Prove design without appealing to a designer. Give us one solid argument. How is the universe designed?
@@JimCastleberry
I've noticed that you use "lying" in an unconventional way, to criticize (without counterargument) claims with which you disagree.
That is not lying. Lying involves deliberately misleading statements of fact. Such as "you are lying" in response to an argument.
Don't get me wrong. It's great for you to put your ineptitude on display and drive up the ratings too. But you really need to up your game as far as sophistry is concerned. You give the impression of an unhappy incel living in his parents's basement and desperate to be taken seriously. If you worked harder on your rhetoric, you might stand a chance at that, but honestly you'll have to broaden your repertoire a little.
@@JimCastleberry You're absurd.
I really enjoyed this conversation.
How refreshing it is to listen to a conversion where the caller is actually trying to reason and is looking for explanations. How refreshing it is to listen to a conversation where the caller is actually trying to engage instead of repeating a script. Cuddos to the three of you.
He actually gets to the heart of the problem when he says that there's no reason to think that the way that the constants are is necessary. That's not true. The truth is that we don't know that they could possibly be any other way. That's just speculation. Until you can prove that the constants COULD be any other way then the argument from "design" is just pretending that there is a problem so that your imaginary friend can solve it.
Well, my imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend.😜
The best explanation is that we are just really really really really really really really really really really really really really really lucky.
unlucky*
The best explanation is there are multiple universes and then we got lucky.
The best explanation is unlikely to require the human concept of Luck .
Not even that lucky. The universe, according, to our best estimates has a diameter of 93 BILLION light years. That's big, bigger than our human minds can even comprehend. Way way bigger than our minds can comprehend. This universe has around 200 billion to 2 trillion GALAXIES. Each of these galaxies contains from a 100 million to 100 trillion stars. Each of these stars most likely has at least 2-3 planets orbiting around it. Our own star system contains 8 planets. Life could evolve on any of these planets which happen to have the conditions just right.
Even if the probability of life is astronomically low, the universe is so astronomically big that somewhere in it, life is bound to occur at least once, or maybe even a bunch of times!
At 23min or so Brian accepts that the universe seems to be eternal, etc, all the properties he assigns to his magical fairy, but he can't accept that the same is true without his magical fairy, or assigns the same properties to his magical fairy!
Satan, demons, the antichist, rape, cancer, war, viruses, all fine-tuned by God. What a good God😊😊
Excellent point.
If god created this f8cked up world...what evidence do you have the supposed next one will be any better
And bad with money
No, man, don't forget that God is perfect and omnipotent but if you play with yourself you create cancer and destroy His plans with sin. What a powerful deity.
Oh Jeffrey... If your Jesus doesn't exist you just lived a life of sufference hoping for something better after it and died without truly placing importance on this one. If your Jesus exists you are kissing the ring of the mafia boss that just burned down your house and terminated your family and told you "love me cause I could do much worse to you". Honestly you should be hoping for the former at this point.
If everything is so fine tuned then why do we constantly have to terraform our environment to actually suit our needs and turn on the AC when we done lol, plus more then half of the stuff we do is keep back and away all these animal insects deer and rodents which were fairly well adapted to their environment before we came along and changed/ tuned it our damn selves because it wasn't ready for us.
Fine-tuning is a superb example of a Shabby Friar joke, or grammitcally a non sequiter. Abraham Lincoln once came up with this kind of joke when he observed that it was amazing to him that man's leg's were just long enuf to reach the ground.4
Fine tuning. Yahweh ain't almighty after all. He's just a backyard mechanic who has to follow someone else's rules.
And if he was a hillbilly mechanic we'd all come out with finely tuned duct tape between the ears 😅😂
exactly!
why bother with fine-tuning if you’re the all-powerful creator of said universe.
The fine tuning argument doesn’t get to Christianity at all. It doesn’t even come into play.
@@joemiller7082
fine-tuning is what EVERY apologist uses as an argument.
The power of the resurrection is evidence that God/Jesus Christ is who he says he is.
Jesus Christ is risen indeed! Jesus Christ is the King of Glory! The only name by which a man can be saved. Glory to his name forever and forever. Nothing but the blood of Christ Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Fine tuning is just a terrible argument. It implies the laws of physics can be tuned when they cannot, like if gravity were 1% stronger, what does that even mean?
Its just saying, "If things were different, they would be different." 😂
The caller is wrong about a god manipulating the dials, but so called fine tuning is actually a problem that scientists discuss and take seriously.
@@golden-63It may be mysterious, but does that make it a problem for a naturalistic view?
@@dwightfitch3120 Not at all. I'm no scientist, but the multiverse hypothesis makes the most sense to me.
Was our Universe God`s first and only failure? Or are we as close as he ever got. Maybe God`s failures are called the multiverse?
What a Colossal Calamitous Clutz, this God!
Whenever I hear someone claim "fine tuning" I can't help but wonder what their basis is for comparison.
coarse tuning maybe?
@@nsf001-3 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
47:33 hell god didn’t even need to kill himself to create the universe, why did he have to hill himself just to forgive animals he created for using the free will he gave them?
The fine tuning argument is really dumb
Terrific articulation of something I've always struggled to explain about why the fine-tuning argument is flawed. It's essentially a teleological viewpoint.
The way I've always thought of it is that any single outcome, in a nondeterministic system, is equally "miraculous."
Finely tuned universe is laughable. Even this rock we live on is barely habitable for our frail bodies. We need to harness the power of science and technology, and contain nontoxic gasses to explore the 75% of the surface covered in water. Need to separate oxygen from the 90% of the rest of the toxic atmosphere to explore up mountains, down in caves. The earth is 4000 miles to the core, we've gone down a mile in the crust, or some 8 miles through the water. Need special containment suits to go either up or down for any extended period. Most of the animals here will eat you, most of the atmosphere will kill you, we can only exist in about 8% of the volume of earth. I'd say earth isn't even tuned for us, we've mucked out an existence against all odds here, the universe would sooner see us dead, than see us explore it.
A Royal Flush is rare, but it happens. The odds of winning the lottery are unbelievably small, but it happens all the time.
And odds can be figured because we know how many cards there are, what each one is and what all the possible hands would be. We know none of that about the universe
@@dwightfitch3120 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
@@dwightfitch3120 Well... it appears to have happened by natural means in THIS universe, and since we have no other universes to compare this one to, I guess we'll just have to operate off of a 100% success rate until proven otherwise.
Fine tuning argues for a designer that is not a god. A god wouldn't have to mold life to fit certain requirements. Fine tuning is creating within confines that the designer cannot alter.
@wyldink1 Yes This. I didn't think of this.
The "first cause" or "fine tuning" argument , to me, seems to be them wanting it both ways, illogically.
What was the "first cause" for a complexly evolving intending god ?
Or what "fine tuned" it to be "just right" for a god to appear ?
Either "something" needed to FIRST cause the god, AND fine tuned it for that god.
AND ALSO something needed to first cause & fine tune for this "simple" unbalanced universe.
OR NEITHER.. There was never a need for a first cause or fine tuning in the first place.
Maybe "nothing" doesn't exist & the universe "fell" into this way.
😁☮️🌏
Probability means nothing without knowing the denominator... What if there are trillion trillionth or more trials to form a universe??? 🙃
Or what if some eternal natural existence can only produce expanding universes with certain fine tuned properties. So universes that continue are selected for and those without just the right properties are selected against and don't materialize.
The story about tuned universe is totally weird. First of all, it proves God sucks at planning and resource management. He creates a single planet in one day, then on day four he creates billions of star systems in our galaxy alone, not to mention black holes, neutron stars, dark matter and two trillions of other galaxies in observable universe. If that still makes sense to someone, I'm really surprised.
And the sun is slowly losing mass and will explode , so amazing ‘fine tuning’. Both earth and moon are also drifting further away each year.
Dude needed a better project manager.
He was on a roll....
Circular arguments for 100 Alex!
Earthquakes, deserts and species that can only survive by killing and eating other species. Yeah, great fine-tuning, God 🤦♂
Or eating and killing. Not all species follows the order you said.
@@stephenolan5539he did mention "species that can only survive..." He never said"all"
@@farhanfiroz7192
So?
He talked about killing and eating.
Some organisms do it the other way around. They eat their victim before killing it.
@@stephenolan5539 yes, he talked about killing and eating, so what, he didn't say all species
@@farhanfiroz7192
Neither was I.
He was listing nasty things in nature.
I added to his list.
What is so difficult to understand?
The example of the cards is totally flawed, because *we know what the potential cards are.* These people who are proposing that it is “unlikely” that the constants of the universe are what they are … haven’t shown us the universe’s other cards. How do they know other constants are even possible? Show that first and then you can discuss the probability of a given subset.
Why would an all-powerful god need to fine-tune anything? He could make the universe exactly like he wanted without "spinning dials" to set the various constants.
If as creationists tell me god's goal was to create humans
Then the universe itself would be unnecessary
Good point. @@joshsheridan9511
You can't use the card anology with theists because they rarely play with a full deck .
Fun fact: The bible is not the word of a loving god.
Our universe can simply be one of a gigantic multitude of parallel universes where these universes have mathematical laws that don't produce human sentient life. Because we have no other universes to compare to, we cannot say our universe if the only one, and because it is "fine tuned" for us to exist, it must have been created by an intelligence who is aware of itself, of what it is doing, and aware of causality. Therefore to say that our universe is created by God because we exist, not because we exist because of random chance, is making a supposition without taking into consideration that there can be an infinite number of other universes out there. A commenter said it perfectly succinctly: "Every puddle is fine-tuned to exactly fit the hole it's in". Our universe, by chance, came into existence or may be it has always been that way, as a round hole whereas the other universes are in an infinite other shapes.
If God had indeed created our universe with fine-tuned mathematical laws so that we could live in it, why create it with an expiration date? Sooner or later, billions or billions of year from now, as the level of entropy progresses, our universe will cease to exist when the last photon will decay into nothingness. There is no logical purpose of creating a process knowing that it will have an end date.
theres a more basic issue that escapes apologists.
WHY bother with fine-tuning if you’re the all powerful creator of the universe? it makes god beholden to the laws of physics.
F**ked up my appendix!
I will never understand how the mind of someone like Brian functions
Pretty reasonable and calm guy. Respect.
I find the fine tuning argument funny. Everything we know about the earths and the universes history, life exists despite the universes best efforts, not because of them. So by that reasoning, theyr god hates life.
You know, I probably sound really stupid, and maybe I'm simplifying things, but like.....ARENT WE TALKING ABOUT AN OMNIPOTENT OMNISCIENT BEING THAT APPARENTLY LOVES US AND WANTS US TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM?! I mean seriously, if all that is true, then like....WHY is all this talk about "evidence for god" and apologists and interpreting and context and all these other mental gymnastics even a THING?!
Like seriously, this shit has been discussed for like, THOUSANDS of years and the arguments just keep getting dumber and dumber, more and more bullshit to try to prove god and make him seem like a moral being, justifying genocide and slavery. Its just such an uphill battle for these people the more this shit goes on.
You hear a new yet TIRED way to justify God's existence and excuse horrible shit in the bible every day, and it never gets anywhere, it just sounds MORE evil trying to justify it.
All this "you need to read it in context bullshit."
None of that shit in context makes sense for an all loving god, who can also see the future and find better, less bloody outcomes.
But my main point is, ALL THESE MENTAL GYMNASTICS COULD LITERALLY BE AVOIDED, IF GOD LITERALLY JUST POPPED INTO EXISTENCE, AND HAD A NICE CHAT WITH US.
He could literally do it any second, to anyone, he's omnipotent and omniscience, he knows a way to do it without violating that free will dogshit (as if he's never done it before).
And I'm not even saying he has to CONVINCE people to worship him, he should just try to prove his existence in a way that people can't refute.
Surely right now God sees all these apologists twisting their heads into knots to make new ways to explain his existence right? Surely he can see they only work for stupid people who are too afraid to let go of their faith.
I think the very fact that they have to come up with all this nonsense in itself just PROVES that this specific god just doesn't exist.
I couldn't have put it better myself. Either God doesn't exist, or he engages in contorted thinking and why should we imagine we could ever figure it out? I mean..take animal sacrifice. How is it Bible-believing theists can't see that this was obviously a way for the priesthood to get the people to bring them food? Now, it's done via tithes and offerings...the priesthood is still living off the largess of the parishioners. And then the whole "Christ dies for my sins" is OBVIOUSLY a different form of animal sacrifice...WHY would a God even contemplate coming to earth as himself to be a sacrifice to himself to appease himself for sins against him? Can an omnipotent God not merely forgive sins of a repentant person and redeem them? Seems a crock to me too.
OF courser the last thing apologists want is for God to make himself known because they would be out or a job. The entire point of church would immediately collapse as a mechanism for dispensing the word of God since we'd all have his word right there in our minds.
I northern Europe their are Stinging Nettles, which sting and hurt; they are usually are found near a kind of Dock Leaf , which is rubbed on the sting, comfort and ease te sting ; fine tuning/ why not just get rid of the nettles?
Fine tuned? Babies are sometimes born with their organs on the outside of their body. That’s a weird definition of “fine tuned”.
MyStErIoUs WaYs!!
"space demon works in mysterious ways"
Fundamental constants of the universe
@@cenred4821 How imperfect.
I can't understand eternity, beginning of everything or existence, therefore a magical fairy who can have no beginning, can always exist and create everything. That makes sense (as long as you don't worry about where the magical fairy came from).
No, I think it was the Boogeyman. Everyone thinks he just lives under your bed to scare you every night, but instead is the creator and fine tuner of the Universe. I wrote a book about it, and you can't prove it wrong. Checkmate theists.
Wait, how is that a checkmate to theists? Wouldn't it be just in line with fine tuning and theism? Sure, it wouldn't be the god most of them want, but it's *some* god either way. So... Theism?
I think fine tuning assumes that the way things are is the only way they could be to sustain life or produce complexity. Just because the earth has all these interweaving elements that sustain life doesn't mean it's in an ideal form.
It has been claimed tectonic activity is crucial for life. Does that mean the earth is fine tuned? I assume an omni creator wouldn't be constrained to the specifications we think of for 'essential for life'. He could have, probably in many different ways, created a world where life isn't dependent on tectonic activity. And then we wouldn't have things like earthquakes ans volcanic activity that take so many lives.
I don't think the theists realize the irony that their fine tuning argument puts their god in a box and makes him limited.
An all powerful God could have made life in any universe. It would not have to be tuned in any way.
An all powerful god could have made an infinite number of universes...
How does faith ignore all the suffering their GOD does nothing about.
While giving him praise.
Dingleberry deleted his thread after I exposed him. Classic creationist coward. (This is an example of alliteration for anyone struggling in English class)
Which thread? His silly fine tuning thread is still up.
@@joshsheridan9511 Oops wrong video.
@@ApatheticFish3667 I've got proof. Man is the most destructive creature on the planet. Just look at what we have done and continue to do to this planet. Do some research. Toxins everywhere, in the air, in the water, in the soil, in the food and in our bodies. Because of the love of money and in the name of progress. We are sinful creatures. We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. God/Jesus Christ is our only hope of salvation. No religion needed. Just faith, faith plus nothing. If a man says he has never done wrong/sinned he is a liar, and the truth is not in him. This evil world, atheists and the devil (Satan) offer no hope.
This guy at least seems to be both honest and sincere --- a rarity on this show. I can see having a serious discussion with him and not ending up pulling my hair out in handfuls. He seems capable of questioning his beliefs and perhaps even learning clearer ways of thinking.
Since matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed, I believe that the universe, which is made of matter/energy, has always existed. Therefor, the universe did not have a beginning. The big bang is not a beginning of the universe. It was the changing of the shape of the universe.
Matter can be created and destroyed or turned.onto energy. Energy eg sunlight is turned into matter by plants. Food is matter. The body turns it into energy.
@@vetinaris1297 Matter and energy are two forms of the same thing: matter/energy. Matter can be changed into energy and energy can be change into matter, but neither the matter nor the energy would be destroyed, only changed. The total matter/energy remains the same. It always has and always will.
One amazing point I read was that Darwin noted, “…in nature there are no edges or hard lines (we are) snapshots of chaos in motion.” That from a book, “Why Fish Don’t Exist.” What we morph to from here, who knows?! That thought image is amazing to me. The idea my baby photos in a sense are not me, at least not any longer and evolutionarily imagine the same, not us any longer.
Evil is finely tuned by God.
Everything is fine tuned by God.
And a good Wednesday Morning 🌞 AXP Fans and Theists ❤❤❤
Peace Love Empathy From Australia 🇦🇺✌️😎👍
I can't imagine the Cosmos having not existed, and I don't believe the caller can either. It is inconceivable.
What the hell is “intrinsic probability of theism”? Word salad
Simply means that God is more probable than not. Its wrong but that's what it means
Just another evidence-free theist trying to define their personally preferred deity, into existence.
@@vetinaris1297 lol, I understood that, I meant what’s the justification?
@bernardleger8478 oh that's easy...God is the justfiication. Its a circular argument, you can't win or even find an edge to get a grip on. Or it could be the King of The Pixies said it was so.
@@bernardleger8478 Did you ever try using a dictionary?
That Brian from Houston is just
dusting off the apologetics and
taking it for a spin. 🤔🤨🧐😁
Your God made me an atheist. Stop arguing with what your God wants me to be.
Intrinsic probability of theism 😂😂😂 the confusion is strong . How do you calculate probability on dumbeldore or dracula or Rumpelstilschin?! (Or whaterver his name is)🤔🤔🤔
The universe which 1 day will be totally incapable of supporting life is somehow fine tuned
I find it amazing that they need an answer for the origin of the universe but are completely content without needing answers for why or how. God is needed for matter to exist. Why and how? Mysterious ways! If god is perfect why does imperfection exist? Because unknown master plan! If god created the universe for us why is 99.99999999999999% uninhabitable? Unknowable master plan! Nonsensical doesn’t even come close to the compilation of presumption, assertion, maybe’s and could be’s of this 🐴💩.
The universe is actually a pretty hostile place for life. The fact it is unimaginably vast means statistically some life exists. This is not evidence for « fine tuning ».
Coincidence does not imply cause, which does not imply agency.
Either the universe was fine tuned and thus life is likely or, by the contra-positive, life is unlikely and hence not fine tuned - structuring the implication any other way means that fine tuning is not a causal factor in the development of life. AND the observable universe is about ninety-nine point 9999999999 9999999999 9999999999 , wait, not done 9999999999 9999999999 9999999999 99999999 - percent lethal to life by volume. That is not a fine tuned universe. SMH
5:22 it should be said also that if I deal out cards at random again and again but only allow people to come see when I’ve dealt all spades, that’s analogous to a series of universes coming into existence and the only life forms that wonder about fine tuning are trapped within the universes that can sustain life lol
You could boil down this argument objectively as saying, "Had the universe unfolded any differently than it did, the present state of the universe would be different in direct proportion." While that is true, so what? What makes the universe as it is, so objectively special that if it were different, it would matter? As soon as you strip away that flawed assumption, the argument falls apart. Odds become meaningless. The odds of anything being what, where and when it is, are astronomical, when you add up all the variables responsible for it being there.
It's like saying, if you live in the desert, "look how perfectly made this is to us, the almighty even provides water at an oasis after a long struggle to us! I can't imagine how it could be different!".
But It's objectively still easier to thrive in a temperate climate.
If the universe would be sliglthy different, it could also be way more compatible with us, or something else.
A lack of imagination, isn't a proof of god.
@@vertigo4236 The compatibility to the universe by humans is a relevant criticism, but that's kind of the point. What makes human existence so objectively grand that it matters? You're right that if the universe was created with us in mind, it's sure seems like a waste of real-estate and time for that matter, but I see it as being beside the point. Let's say the universe did unfold differently and rather than humans some other type of sentient life came to be that didn't basically feed on the carcasses of other life, reproduce and die. But oh well, the universe got us. For a relatively brief instant anyway.
If the universe was different, either we would be having exactly this same conversation about how unlikely that universe is, or we wouldn't exist at all. We wouldn't know about those universes with no life in them, so we can just ignore them.
Extinct animals have entered the chat
Since we do not know what causes universes to form, we cannot say any outcome is unlikely. Moreover, every argument for fine tuning that I have heard discusses what might happen if this ONE constant were changed. What if they were ALL changed is it not possible that they could work together in a way totally different than ours do to produce a result that some inhabitants of that universe would see as significant? This caller talks about stars and planets - what makes them necessary? Wouldn't a universe where every bit of it was conducive to life be even more amazing?
I have a great analogy for those kinds of discussions! I have a dice, the dice has an unknown amount of sides, on each side there is a number, we know nothing about the numbers that are on the dice, I rolled it and it landed on a 7, what were the odds? Every answer besides "I don't know" is based purely on assumptions, that's how people come up with the probability of our universe being the way it is with the sample size of exactly one, which is absolutely pointless.
I think a deck of cards is not a useful analogy when discussing fine tuning. We know we can get different cards, we don’t know the physical constants can be different at all. We know the different cards have equal probability, we don’t know the physical constants can be different at all, let alone their probabilities.
At 18:19 the Kalam, is outdated. In a more modern form, it should say “everything that exists has a cause for its existence, and that cause always follows the laws of quantum physics and relativity, both special and general. The universe began to exist therefore it has a cause that likely follows the same physical laws.”
There's too many arguments against fine tuning that it's widely accepted there is no fine tuning. Unless God was stupid enough to make our throat an area for air and food to go down. God would be really stupid making us a immune system and then make virus' that attack immune systems. That would be a real wasteful bit of effort. So stupid.
I absolutely know that cats are the reason for the universe. Ha
"intrinsic probability of theism" already watched this one dude once, that line remained in my brain =D
Humanist believe their origin is insignificant and their destiny is insignificant but simply don’t have the balls to say their life is insignificant.
Do all humanists believe their origin or destination is insignificant? As an atheist, I can think the natural world is significant because it resulted in life...life that became sentient and ultimately my life. And as a sentient being, I and others can create our own meaning/value. That is significant to me. I don't know why my and other's lives wouldn't be significant to me/us. What makes life significant to you?
@@possumface2425 "What are you going to do with yourself while you live out your destiny Tim?"
Tim didn't answer my question either. The point is there is no significance even in the existence of God UNLESS someone...each individual creates in their own mind the significance God represents. IOW humanist or theist...we each create meaning in our own minds. Nothing else can do it for us....not even God. It would seem to me that those needing to invent meaning via God are just deficient in their own personal ability to deal with life.
Ultimately, my life and all of existence here on Earth is insignificant. The Earth could evaporate today, and tomorrow the universe would not give a shit.
So what?
To me, my life is significant. Because it's mine. Just like to me, my cat is significant. To others, she's not. I don't care. Their views are not my concern.
@@HuxtableK
"To me, my life is significant. Because it's mine. "
Exactly, and even those who imagine a God...a supreme being...are STILL creating their own significance in their minds and for themselves by imagining a God that (they think) makes their life significant. Why should the existence of a god make anyone's life any more or less significant? We're of no real value...just a manufactured creation...a toy, a plaything of the gods.
Sure we can say we're merely accidents of a natural world. But that in itself is spectacular. We are unique. We may be the only sentient beings in the entire universe. But if we're the mere construct of an arbitrary god who decided what and how, we're not unique at all. We're actually quite a mundane product created intentionally with flaws and limitations...not special at all since he could have done better but chose not to.
@@HuxtableK My friend, you cling to the notion that your life has significance simply because you choose to believe it, much like you cherish your cat while dismissing the views of others. But if the universe is truly indifferent, your sense of meaning is nothing more than a comforting lie, a flimsy construct that will eventually collapse under the weight of reality. The love you feel for your life and your cat points to something far deeper than personal preference; it hints at a higher truth, a divine purpose that you are choosing to ignore. By denying this greater reality, you are shutting yourself off from the true source of meaning, leaving yourself adrift in a world where your self-made significance is as fragile as a soap bubble, destined to burst and leave you with nothing but emptiness. I urge you to consider that real meaning is not something you can fabricate out of thin air, but something that is given, grounded in a reality far beyond yourself.
The proposition of fine tuning and the question of existence from a cause, are never resolve no matter how you talk about it. When your discussion is over nothing is being resolved.
I will post this long narrative.
Regarding the origin of things, in quantum physics it could be said that energy exists forever since the law of conservation of energy states that " energy could neither be created nor destroyed it only transforms from one to another" in which sense it means energy is there forever. Second thing is that consciousness is inherent in nature in the quantum realm as shown in the experiment of the double slit board where it seems that particles have consciousness in my view. To support that claim many experiments show that water in jars reacts to words spoken to them. Another thing is that air seems to respond to blow more when farmers whistle when they want more air, which led me to conclude that particles at quantum level have inherent consciousness or in totality the universe is conscious. The theory of multiverse also would in conjunction with this view, it relates that in any space multiverse exists.
Considering it collectively, energy and consciousness are inherent in nature. With these energy and consciousness it could originate species and also made the galaxies to arrange by themselves. Being conscious they could evolve by themselves, yes?
A computer could do a tremendous job with just a binary combination of gate zero and one. Compared to conscious particles, consciousness surely would be much more advanced and amazing which is the primality of genes and DNA,where particles like different sorts of electrons, protons, gamma, theta or what not clinging to it forming different kinds of species. This process underwent a billion years in the past.
This is a challenge for theists and more simple than what you are speculating to prove that there is what you claim is the “all powerful and merciful God”, go to cancer hospital and look for 20 patients and ask God for complete healing, that is the way if we want scientific proof like testing a cure of covid, yes? Then repeat it ten times to clear doubt. Ok do it. If you couldn’t do it simply means you are embracing a lie your theory is incorrect.
Thus there is no "all powerful and merciful God", no hell, heaven and rapture which is made to control people.
It all boils down to 2 different kind of people, thinking and non thinking people, the non thinking people don't ask questions they just believe it because someone told them so. The thinking people ask questions and want answers, or solutions to the problem.why would a god want to kill a person just to bring him back to life, why kill him in the first place?
*No, the universe wasn't fine tuned by a god, but contrary to what the vast majority of commenters seem to think, so called fine tuning is a bit of a puzzle in science that physicists discuss and take seriously. It isn't just something that the theists just dreamed up. Clearly the universe isn't fine tuned for LIFE. But if the physical constants, especially the cosmological constant, were much different, matter itself would not have been able to form. Personally, I think the multiverse is the simplest and most likely explanation for so called fine tuning.*
Right...and why would a creator bother to fine tune it if it was going to go ahead and create life itself anyways? Life created by an almighty creator could exist under any conditions or under no (physical/material/natural) conditions rendering fine tuned-ness useless.
@@rizdekd3912 Exactly!
For the card exemple to really be analogous to the evolution vs design question it would have to go like this:
-here are 13 cards I drew from a standard 54 cards playing deck.
-Oh all are spades !
-Do you think I cheated?
-Well it's more likely.
-What actually happened is that I kept dealing myself 13 cards from a 54 cards deck until I actually got this result and kept the hand to show you.
Couple of accidents for hosts!
Another issue I’ve always had and it was brought up a little bit, death is a construct of an omnipotent creature for his creation, they would have no use for it. It’d be like an off switch on a computer. So how could a God die for three days? Also, why would it be considered a sacrifice for a God? It is no sacrifice, three days out of forever? And it’s three days of taking a nap, the closest as a human I would be able to describe an omnipotent creature being dead for three days.
I can't stand it when someone is missing or someone has been murdered and people say I'm praying for you how do you think God didn't know this was happening when it was happening and if a child is missing God knew it was going to happen and knows where the child is why would you think you would have to tell this God that you need help
Indeed, they seem to think their god is less capable and less concerned than the average law enforcement officer or even the average person who, even though THEY cannot affect someone's free will, manage to work to solve crimes and help people.
How can you compare when there is only one, or many ones. Whether we ask what the universe is (big one) or what experience is (the many ones) the answer is the same isnt it? Theres really nothing ultimately we can compare it too, as in order to compare, we must be outside of. We cant think out of the box because we are the box. This made me think of "as above, so below"
I like these calls. I think the fine tuning argument is bad, but this is three people talking and listening. To each other.