Suffering brings awareness. Not being true to ourselves (self betrayal) is part of the human condition that often leads to resentment once the betrayal is recognized. Reconizing the Shadow/the "why" you did this self-betrayal and forgiving yourself is the only remedy i can think of...
The term self-betrayal seems like a criminal act but small children who end up fragmented from repeated dissociation in order to survive, they are not criminals. And it can take years, and a rare therapist willing to accept multiple dissociation as a fact, a reality, to regain any semblance of coherence let alone a sense of authenticity.
@@elizabethmansfield3609 I think that is a self-preservation, to split at a time when the trauma can not be fully understood. Does Self-betrayal start when Agency has or should have kicked in (with the ability to make independent life choices)? It’s an interesting point that you bring up! Thank you!
Last night I hit a despair so deep and dark that I contemplated the Worst Thing. I’m not religious but I prayed -out loud - for clarity on how to gain purchase in this self loathing. I’ve been baffled by my self sabotage and unable to locate its source… or arrest its course. This video is so specific to my prayer that I am reminded truth is always kind when the agenda is clear and simple. I want to be whole so I can give back the good I’ve received. Thank you. I’ve not feel this level of clarity and purpose in a very long time and never on this level.
This is what I’ve been going through but wasn’t able to see it. I am complicit in so many ways due to fear of being exiled. Saving this to listen to again We all have an appoint-ment with ourselves and most of us never show up for it -James Hollis
incredible ; i related so much to the power drive as a source of self betrayal - listening to this unraveling of the story itself felt like i was literally in the oven in conversation with myself thank you for so much insight throughout... and the killing of the magic 😢- so sad and true - (good thing that magic never really dies tho )
This was so apt. I had often felt “self sabotage” didn’t quite go far enough in describing how I feel about some of the actions I’ve taken in the past. A succession of self betrayals between 2020 to 2022 have left me shocked and horrified, indeed, traumatised by my own actions against my values as a father, as a son and as a partner. If I had known my values, standing strong and conscious in them would’ve prevented all of these events from happening. But as was said, it’s only by suffering that we become conscious.
Congratulations on the book! It’s now on my wishlist ❤ I will listen to the podcast again because I still can’t grasp the difference between self betrayal and self sabotage.
Self betrayal is not being true to who you are by choosing goals according to externally imposed criteria, or to be more accurate, not choosing goals, partners, life paths that truly fit you and your inherent whole being. But being “successful” in them, according to the world which allows you to ignore yourself, your whole authentic self, while gaining acceptance and approval. Self-sabotage is ostensibly being on a path to a real aligned goal but messing it up or not completing it or rejecting someone who really does love you etc. staying small, not digging deep, etc -more like “The War of Art” by James Pressfield. I hope this helps. But note that ADHD can mess up both ways and that’s a potential confounding influence, or something other than trauma which can influence these I think-although it also provides an easier way to mess yourself up if you do have trauma by not paying attention and letting everything just happen. The best way to see such things for me is “ways of coping” using internal and external resources and temperament, etc. either to escape or hide and stay small instead of individuation. It’s confusing because humans are intelligent and resourceful and can do similar patterns so many different ways. Thats my take on it anyway. I didn’t think that was super clear in the video either or in life 😊🤷♀️
This was so fascinating to listen to and immediately applicable to my personal life. 🙏 I also enjoyed how you incorporated The Master & His Emissary into your discussion as I have found Iain McGilchrist’s work to be transformative.
I am reading your book and recently I had a dream that I was playing with two healthy parrots but at the bottom of the cage was Miki, the parrot I raised from an egg when I was 10, and she was dead, decapitated. I knew it was from neglect that she ended up that way. I learned from your book to pay attention to the emotion in the dream and it surprised me that I was not all that shocked or upset in the dream. In real life if that would have happened I would be horrified beyond imagination. I loved that bird so much, still thinking of her 17 years after her death. So I was wondering in what way am I not attending to my most precious values and not just that but I don't even notice it, distracted by other things, the two birds. Then a few nights later I dream that I am living with a man, a roommate, and due to some negligence on his side my two parrots (other parrots I loved from my past) escaped out the window. I shouted after one of them and managed to make her come back to me and then I confronted the roommate that he didn't even try to get the parrots back, to which he replied in a non-affected tone that he did not realise it matters so much to me. So my unconscious told me what part of me makes me neglect my soul, it's the masculine.. my latest emotional involvement with work and other things. The shocking imagery from my unconscious puts me on the right path. So I was happy to see this last video. Perfectly fitting with my latest train of thought.
Wow guys, strong, strong episode. Truly solid and so interesting and engaging. And that Fairy tale was wonderful! I plan to use this with my own patients (I’m a therapist myself). Thank you so much! ☺️✨
I did get it after listening 2x and it led me to a distinct revelation about how betrayal leads to sabotaging behavior. Healing the betrayal is key to overcoming the sabotage.
In the lion king. Simba loses his identity and values in his endeavours with Timon and pumba ,only for rafiki to return him to his true essence,a King. His indulgence set him apart from responsibility(Response ability)
...before watching this, my first thought has to do with the relinquishing of 'that' and choosing 'this'...and already there's 'lumper' and 'splitter' and the distinctions made between self-sabotage and self-betrayal. Nice... Now on to the blame game and the essentials of self-reliance...on Thanksgiving morning...
I have spent decades in the depth of my psyche, or in a kind of mental emigration. I had lots of mental issues. When a child splits parts of themselves is not self-betrayal. It's self-preservation in certain cases. The only way to survive is to hide oneself and establish a false self. Lie to oneself. Ferenczi Sándor describes this situation very well in his Clinical Diaries. I have been on my healing journey for five years, and the return is challenging. I'm a concept in a way, because I cannot really live the person I'm. I'm a completely different person at home and in my surrounding than what people see of me. I don't know what is holding me back. I think I don't have the means or fear, etc. I'm actually a very different person than I though I'm. I even learned to write with my right hand, and I used to be left-handed.
I sort of experience this more consciously even. Which is almost a worst experience then being able to point at being taken away into something. But it may be a similar thing.
This kinda ties into the I'm Just a Girl trend on social media, I would LOVE to hear yalls take on how we sometimes regress in ways that can be damaging. For example, "girl math" and sex in the city style spending habits are holding some young women back in their initial foray into or rather away from adulthood and womanhood.
I work in a school with 6-8 year olds, 99% of the time they misbehave they become baby like, regress to talking like how they feel they think a baby might talk. It's horrifying and fascinating to see the attempt to dodge even the limited responsibilities of a small child to a pantomime of an even younger child.
I think of Jimmy Stewart's character in "It's a Wonderful Life" who gives up his dream of travel and adventure to form a family with Donna Reed. He betrays himself but is portrayed as a hero for doing it, in the name of family and responsibility. But to me he is a tragic figure.
I am wondering about the servant girl who was "given" to a princess, dressed in rags and expected to ride a nag into her future life of service. Ostensibly, her usurpation of the princess's gifts and power is "evil" by trying to become someone else, an imposter. Who was she supposed to become? Is it virtuous to obediently accept slavery? Perhaps such gross social injustice screwing-up self-realization is also an implicit value in fairy tales. If the "evil" servant, or slave, represents an aspect of of the royal shadow, perhaps it explains the illusion of entitlement, also a form of becoming an imposter.
I am too. How would docile acceptance of a life of servitude, where one is “given” away like an object be anything but a self betrayal? Is she expected to embrace a life of subservience, poverty and drudgery with the same unquestioning openness and enthusiasm as the wealthy and powerful princess? Do servants deserve no better than rags and a nag? Does a lack of pretty golden hair or royal blood mean this woman deserves such a bleak fate? The chambermaid struck me as a hero the second she told the princess to get her own water. Groveling in rags while filling a privileged princess’s golden cup is no one’s happy ending.
I think it is interesting that this story was collated and no doubt edited by two brothers. I wonder what the oral versions were like? I think this is an inherently feminine story about women using guile in a dangerous situation. The mother’s precious daughter is being sent off to marry “a man she has not met”. How can she protect her? Send a proxy in the form of the chambermaid to work out if the Prince is indeed a good man, if not, the chambermaid is sacrificed to the marriage. If he is, she is sacrificed for the sake of the princess, and rather than reveal that the King and Prince were duped, she carries the blame.
There is a conditionality in terms like sabotage, betrayal, or "something darker". So, whatever else you 3 are speaking about it is conditioning and conditioning effects. There is a suggestion of deep manipulative aspects you don't seem to fully appreciate...in a positive light. Do you know why we are easily conditioned and why conditioning is a deeply embodied process of awareness? It is the only way a person can mirror information patterns and learn from experience. Listeners/viewers, never be told of bad habits and faults by an expert. They're all statistically average, like most of their ideas. Common conventions are the curse of independent thought of expressions. Cultural conditioning is the tyranny that needs escaping, ideas of lack, want, and need.
I love listening to you guys. But the only "return" I am looking forward, was sung by Homer millennia ago, the big-screen production of history's most famous, "return": ruclips.net/video/FJmAwlmOavs/видео.htmlsi=QBCY4tULyKcGM2qJ
Suffering brings awareness.
Not being true to ourselves (self betrayal) is part of the human condition that often leads to resentment once the betrayal is recognized.
Reconizing the Shadow/the "why" you did this self-betrayal and forgiving yourself is the only remedy i can think of...
The term self-betrayal seems like a criminal act but small children who end up fragmented from repeated dissociation in order to survive, they are not criminals. And it can take years, and a rare therapist willing to accept multiple dissociation as a fact, a reality, to regain any semblance of coherence let alone a sense of authenticity.
@@elizabethmansfield3609 I think that is a self-preservation, to split at a time when the trauma can not be fully understood. Does Self-betrayal start when Agency has or should have kicked in (with the ability to make independent life choices)? It’s an interesting point that you bring up! Thank you!
Last night I hit a despair so deep and dark that I contemplated the Worst Thing. I’m not religious but I prayed -out loud - for clarity on how to gain purchase in this self loathing. I’ve been baffled by my self sabotage and unable to locate its source… or arrest its course.
This video is so specific to my prayer that I am reminded truth is always kind when the agenda is clear and simple. I want to be whole so I can give back the good I’ve received.
Thank you. I’ve not feel this level of clarity and purpose in a very long time and never on this level.
This is what I’ve been going through but wasn’t able to see it. I am complicit in so many ways due to fear of being exiled.
Saving this to listen to again
We all have an appoint-ment with ourselves and most of us never show up for it -James Hollis
Listening to Lisa read fairytales is always so soothing lol
incredible ; i related so much to the power drive as a source of self betrayal - listening to this unraveling of the story itself felt like i was literally in the oven in conversation with myself thank you for so much insight throughout... and the killing of the magic 😢- so sad and true - (good thing that magic never really dies tho )
This was so apt. I had often felt “self sabotage” didn’t quite go far enough in describing how I feel about some of the actions I’ve taken in the past. A succession of self betrayals between 2020 to 2022 have left me shocked and horrified, indeed, traumatised by my own actions against my values as a father, as a son and as a partner. If I had known my values, standing strong and conscious in them would’ve prevented all of these events from happening. But as was said, it’s only by suffering that we become conscious.
i feel you. 🫂
It takes a lot of courage and wisdom seeking to acknowledge that.
The magic of spiritual camaraderie is so palpable with your trinity of Jungian Presence! ♥️
So good to see/hear you 3! A true gift!!!! Thank you indeed for this sharing here 🙏🧙
Congratulations on the book! It’s now on my wishlist ❤
I will listen to the podcast again because I still can’t grasp the difference between self betrayal and self sabotage.
Self betrayal is not being true to who you are by choosing goals according to externally imposed criteria, or to be more accurate, not choosing goals, partners, life paths that truly fit you and your inherent whole being. But being “successful” in them, according to the world which allows you to ignore yourself, your whole authentic self, while gaining acceptance and approval.
Self-sabotage is ostensibly being on a path to a real aligned goal but messing it up or not completing it or rejecting someone who really does love you etc. staying small, not digging deep, etc -more like “The War of Art” by James Pressfield.
I hope this helps. But note that ADHD can mess up both ways and that’s a potential confounding influence, or something other than trauma which can influence these I think-although it also provides an easier way to mess yourself up if you do have trauma by not paying attention and letting everything just happen.
The best way to see such things for me is “ways of coping” using internal and external resources and temperament, etc. either to escape or hide and stay small instead of individuation. It’s confusing because humans are intelligent and resourceful and can do similar patterns so many different ways. Thats my take on it anyway.
I didn’t think that was super clear in the video either or in life 😊🤷♀️
Deb was on FIRE 🔥 in this one. Very helpful. Very inspiring.
This was so fascinating to listen to and immediately applicable to my personal life. 🙏 I also enjoyed how you incorporated The Master & His Emissary into your discussion as I have found Iain McGilchrist’s work to be transformative.
I really appreciate all of your insights
Thank you for the rich expansions of principles (like a blown up diagram) from your interesting examples.
I am reading your book and recently I had a dream that I was playing with two healthy parrots but at the bottom of the cage was Miki, the parrot I raised from an egg when I was 10, and she was dead, decapitated. I knew it was from neglect that she ended up that way. I learned from your book to pay attention to the emotion in the dream and it surprised me that I was not all that shocked or upset in the dream. In real life if that would have happened I would be horrified beyond imagination. I loved that bird so much, still thinking of her 17 years after her death. So I was wondering in what way am I not attending to my most precious values and not just that but I don't even notice it, distracted by other things, the two birds. Then a few nights later I dream that I am living with a man, a roommate, and due to some negligence on his side my two parrots (other parrots I loved from my past) escaped out the window. I shouted after one of them and managed to make her come back to me and then I confronted the roommate that he didn't even try to get the parrots back, to which he replied in a non-affected tone that he did not realise it matters so much to me. So my unconscious told me what part of me makes me neglect my soul, it's the masculine.. my latest emotional involvement with work and other things. The shocking imagery from my unconscious puts me on the right path. So I was happy to see this last video. Perfectly fitting with my latest train of thought.
Wow guys, strong, strong episode. Truly solid and so interesting and engaging. And that Fairy tale was wonderful! I plan to use this with my own patients (I’m a therapist myself). Thank you so much! ☺️✨
You guys podcasts are always in tune with my life. So grateful to have this
Your voices are so soothing, thank you ❤
Stunning. 🙏🏼
I did get it after listening 2x and it led me to a distinct revelation about how betrayal leads to sabotaging behavior. Healing the betrayal is key to overcoming the sabotage.
Lisa looks SO good.
This happens so often in the workplace, particularly on the managment track.
In the lion king.
Simba loses his identity and values in his endeavours with Timon and pumba ,only for rafiki to return him to his true essence,a King.
His indulgence set him apart from responsibility(Response ability)
...before watching this, my first thought has to do with the relinquishing of 'that' and choosing 'this'...and already there's 'lumper' and 'splitter' and the distinctions made between self-sabotage and self-betrayal. Nice... Now on to the blame game and the essentials of self-reliance...on Thanksgiving morning...
I have spent decades in the depth of my psyche, or in a kind of mental emigration. I had lots of mental issues. When a child splits parts of themselves is not self-betrayal. It's self-preservation in certain cases. The only way to survive is to hide oneself and establish a false self. Lie to oneself. Ferenczi Sándor describes this situation very well in his Clinical Diaries. I have been on my healing journey for five years, and the return is challenging. I'm a concept in a way, because I cannot really live the person I'm. I'm a completely different person at home and in my surrounding than what people see of me. I don't know what is holding me back. I think I don't have the means or fear, etc. I'm actually a very different person than I though I'm. I even learned to write with my right hand, and I used to be left-handed.
Thank you for the video.
Were the Brothers Grimm “psychologists”?
I sort of experience this more consciously even. Which is almost a worst experience then being able to point at being taken away into something. But it may be a similar thing.
Would love to hear an episode about pride and it’s pitfalls, this is something I’ve struggled with
Type of podcast to snuggle up to 😊
This kinda ties into the I'm Just a Girl trend on social media, I would LOVE to hear yalls take on how we sometimes regress in ways that can be damaging. For example, "girl math" and sex in the city style spending habits are holding some young women back in their initial foray into or rather away from adulthood and womanhood.
Have you recorded anything about false guilt? From childhood trauma?
Thank you.
I work in a school with 6-8 year olds, 99% of the time they misbehave they become baby like, regress to talking like how they feel they think a baby might talk. It's horrifying and fascinating to see the attempt to dodge even the limited responsibilities of a small child to a pantomime of an even younger child.
Lovely episode.
I think of Jimmy Stewart's character in "It's a Wonderful Life" who gives up his dream of travel and adventure to form a family with Donna Reed. He betrays himself but is portrayed as a hero for doing it, in the name of family and responsibility. But to me he is a tragic figure.
I am wondering about the servant girl who was "given" to a princess, dressed in rags and expected to ride a nag into her future life of service. Ostensibly, her usurpation of the princess's gifts and power is "evil" by trying to become someone else, an imposter. Who was she supposed to become? Is it virtuous to obediently accept slavery? Perhaps such gross social injustice screwing-up self-realization is also an implicit value in fairy tales. If the "evil" servant, or slave, represents an aspect of of the royal shadow, perhaps it explains the illusion of entitlement, also a form of becoming an imposter.
I am too. How would docile acceptance of a life of servitude, where one is “given” away like an object be anything but a self betrayal? Is she expected to embrace a life of subservience, poverty and drudgery with the same unquestioning openness and enthusiasm as the wealthy and powerful princess? Do servants deserve no better than rags and a nag? Does a lack of pretty golden hair or royal blood mean this woman deserves such a bleak fate?
The chambermaid struck me as a hero the second she told the princess to get her own water. Groveling in rags while filling a privileged princess’s golden cup is no one’s happy ending.
I think it is interesting that this story was collated and no doubt edited by two brothers. I wonder what the oral versions were like? I think this is an inherently feminine story about women using guile in a dangerous situation. The mother’s precious daughter is being sent off to marry “a man she has not met”. How can she protect her? Send a proxy in the form of the chambermaid to work out if the Prince is indeed a good man, if not, the chambermaid is sacrificed to the marriage. If he is, she is sacrificed for the sake of the princess, and rather than reveal that the King and Prince were duped, she carries the blame.
An imaciated kitten is longterm . Strawman thinking is part and parcel of syndrome
There is a conditionality in terms like sabotage, betrayal, or "something darker".
So, whatever else you 3 are speaking about it is conditioning and conditioning effects.
There is a suggestion of deep manipulative aspects you don't seem to fully appreciate...in a positive light.
Do you know why we are easily conditioned and why conditioning is a deeply embodied process of awareness?
It is the only way a person can mirror information patterns and learn from experience.
Listeners/viewers, never be told of bad habits and faults by an expert. They're all statistically average, like most of their ideas. Common conventions are the curse of independent thought of expressions. Cultural conditioning is the tyranny that needs escaping, ideas of lack, want, and need.
Self betrayal is also about naiivete
I love listening to you guys.
But the only "return" I am looking forward, was sung by Homer millennia ago, the big-screen production of history's most famous, "return":
ruclips.net/video/FJmAwlmOavs/видео.htmlsi=QBCY4tULyKcGM2qJ