The real reason you still can't speak your target language
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
- You've studied for years but you can't speak when you want? Here's why, and what to do about it.
Lingoda link: try.lingoda.com/LanguageJones
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Edited with Gling AI: bit.ly/46bGeYv
#language #languagelearning #Lingoda #linguistics #speakingpractice #speakingskills #learning
Obviously not the main point of the video, but that throwaway line about refusing to endorse BetterHelp made me love you even more.
Same, betterhelp is awful and all the youtubers endorsing them are soulless
The hind brain stressing makes sense.
In my teens when I visited family back in Poland for the first time since baby form, I found out, to my absolute horror, my parents never bothered to correct my 'baby' pronunciations. They thought it was cute. I had been talking to the diaspora like a toddler, and no one said anything! Why!!
I overthink everything a lot now.
That is so awful and also so hilarious. I’m sorry that happened!!!
Some fun sentences in the heavenly languages Norse and Icelandic are...
Ek heiti Freyja ok ek em at læra Norrænu því ek elski (elska) hana! (Norse)
Hann ǫrninn vissi ekki hvaðan kemr Sólin... (Norse)
Ek veit alt er þú veizt ekki! (Norse)
Ég hef talað Ensku síðan þegar ég vas (var) tveggja eða triggja ára!
En ég get líka talað Hollensku og Norsku og Spænsku og FornNorrænu!
Ég get talað Íslensku reiprennandi og ég em (er) ekki með neina hreim!
Ef ég gæti lært annað mál, hvað væri það? Það væri auðvitað Danska!
Ég em (er) að hugsa að það er mikilvægt að læra að minnsta kosti eitt erlent tungumál, eða flest fallegu tungumálin!
Svo ég valdi Íslensku og ég héld áfram að læra hana...
Ég læri það í samhengi... (Icelandic)
Hvíslaðu að svaninum!
En ertu frá hinum hlutanum?
Þegar ég segi Ísland, hvað er það fyrsta sem dettur þér í (hug) hugi?
Als ik Ijsland zeg, wat is het eerste wat naar boven komt bij jou? (Dutch)
Some of the prettiest words in Gothic are namo, þein, hunds, þatist, ik, weis, eis, qen, driusaima, wairþan, ains, sinteina, nist, imma, twais, eisarn, swikn, uhteigo, brunna, faíraþro etc!
(The words in these heavenly languages are just so pretty and so poetic and so cool, they are true works of art, so I definitely wish I had learnt them in childhood, and I highly recommend learning them all together, as they are way too pretty not to know and so magical!)
By the way, when it comes to learning languages such as Danish and German that have accents that aren’t easy to imitate and a quite complicated pronunciation, one must also practice a lot things such as accent / glottal stops / pronunciation / sound placement / intonation / sound projection etc, as they have very unusual sound projection and placement and some unusual sounds (like the soft D in Danish, for example) that aren’t easy to figure out how to do - so, I would say Danish and German are the languages with the accents that are the hardest to imitate of all Germanic languages, whereas languages such as Norse / Gothic / Icelandic / Faroese / Dutch / Norwegian / Welsh / Breton / Cornish / Latin / Italian / Galician / Manx / Esperanto / Gaelic / Latvian / Irish / Slovene etc have some of the accents that are the easiest to imitate and some of the easiest pronunciations that are as easy or almost as easy as the neutral American accent and English pronunciation, so these languages are naturally very easy to pronounce (except for the LL sound in Welsh, which isn’t easy to figure out how to do) with accents that are naturally very easy to imitate, so they don’t require a lot of practice, and, I could sound native in Icelandic and Norse and Dutch etc even at a beginner level or intermediate level, but now I am upper intermediate level in Norse and advanced level in Icelandic and upper advanced level in Dutch, at least vocab-wise, and I even sound very natural in these languages, as it was very easy for me to develop and imitate the right accents, however, I am really struggling with developing the right Danish accent and the right German accent, so I have to practice a lot and hear a lot of spoken Danish and a lot of spoken German!
I don't think that's true. I think knowing even 1000 words you can get talking, in principle, but then you have to build it from there, of course. Before reaching a comfortable B2 level it's always going to be frustrating trying to speak in a new language, it just needs to be pushed through, doggedly, until an ok level is reached.
?
When people say to 'just engage' there is another very useful dimension to this, providing you can tolerate the pain for a while. One of the worst hurdles is worrying about how other people perceive your efforts, what you 'sound like'. If you start and people actually reply to you that hurdle can be surmounted. Also, when you interact those people feed you both words and patterns for speech. Language at its most basic and everyday is not greatly creative, it is made up of interchangeable blocks and by speaking with people you learn which blocks to use and how to arrange them.
Yes - I think it would be really useful to think about Adele Goldberg's (1995) Contruction Grammar and her notion of the "constructicon" - which relies on the compilation of these formulaic chunks as the foundation for grammar, whether from syntax, morphology, or phonology even.
I think it's important to keep in mind that speaking a language is a skill, not just knowledge. The brain does not learn how to do something if we don't practice it, no matter the amount of theory we know about it.
I teach ESL and this is exactly what I tell my students/learners. I don''t care if you've "studied" the language for (X) years...How long have you been practicing (ie, using) it?
@@adammoore7447Indeed it's about results and there are no medals for the time spent on language learning. In fact I have even felt ashamed to admit when I had started some on-and-off language projects when asked. People often ask "so how long have you been learning...?", but it's a random number that does not have anything to do with success. Imagine gym rats not asking each other "how much do you lift?" but "when did you first get your gym membership?". It does not even get close to "do you train often?"😂
Exactly right. I tell myself that I’m a participant, not a student. It forces me to use the languages, not just study them. I give the same advice to the adults that I tutor.
To be able to say anything in the new languages, one must know over ten thousand words or over fifteen thousand words automatically, so one has to revise / see / hear each word at least thirty times over a longer period of time, which is why one must use the spaced repetition method, and one must also constantly analyze and repeat all sorts of different sentences with different grammatical constructions, to really be able to maintain a natural flow throughout the full sentences, so I recommend focusing mostly on vocab videos and memorizing / analyzing as many lyrics as one can and watching every single video with subtitles in the target languages, and I also recommend learning at least thirty thousand base words automatically in each target language, over the course of five to ten years, to get to a writer level in the target languages in about a decade or so - one can recognize many words after only seeing them a few times in pretty and easy languages such as the Germanic languages and the Celtic languages and the true Latin languages and other pretty languages such as Hungarian and Latvian and Slovene etc, but, to be able to freely use the words and to automatically remember them without having to think about them, one must see each word many times, so one must constantly revise and repeat previously learnt words, while still learning hundreds and thousands of new words every week or every day etc, until each word can be instantly processed and automatically remembered, and, it’s like that in any language, including the first language that one is made to learn, even though most don’t notice that because they aren’t actively trying to learn the first language, but yea, it takes a lot of hard work / revising to learn languages, because there are just so many words that one must learn automatically and permanently! (By the way, I highly recommend learning the prettiest languages ever created Norse / Gothic / Icelandic / Faroese / English / Dutch / Norwegian / Danish / Welsh / Breton / Cornish together as they are equally gorgeous and way too pretty not to know, and, I would recommend always choosing wisely, by only choosing the pretty and easy languages with mostly pretty words that have a modern and professional sound or at least a nice sound, for their gorgeous poetic words and cool sound, as opposed to trying to learn a language that doesn’t sound good and that doesn’t have mostly pretty words that is also unnecessarily complicated with odd alphabets or writing systems that aren’t an alphabet and that are impossible characters (because they have more native speakers) etc, as one can learn more than fifteen pretty and easy languages at the same time, as opposed to only learning one or two impossible category 10 languages, choosing wisely being the key to being a successful polyglot and enjoying the learning process, and, by the way, I am learning 25+ of my target languages at the moment and focusing mostly on the Norse languages and Celtic languages, which are the most fun to learn and speak and hear and see!)
Some fun sentences in the heavenly languages Norse and Icelandic are...
Ek heiti Freyja ok ek em at læra Norrænu því ek elski (elska) hana! (Norse)
Hann ǫrninn vissi ekki hvaðan kemr Sólin... (Norse)
Ek veit alt er þú veizt ekki! (Norse)
Ég hef talað Ensku síðan þegar ég vas (var) tveggja eða triggja ára!
En ég get líka talað Hollensku og Norsku og Spænsku og FornNorrænu!
Ég get talað Íslensku reiprennandi og ég em (er) ekki með neina hreim!
Ef ég gæti lært annað mál, hvað væri það? Það væri auðvitað Danska!
Ég em (er) að hugsa að það er mikilvægt að læra að minnsta kosti eitt erlent tungumál, eða flest fallegu tungumálin!
Svo ég valdi Íslensku og ég héld áfram að læra hana...
Ég læri það í samhengi... (Icelandic)
Hvíslaðu að svaninum!
En ertu frá hinum hlutanum?
Þegar ég segi Ísland, hvað er það fyrsta sem dettur þér í (hug) hugi?
Als ik Ijsland zeg, wat is het eerste wat naar boven komt bij jou? (Dutch)
Some of the prettiest words in Gothic are namo, þein, hunds, þatist, ik, weis, eis, qen, driusaima, wairþan, ains, sinteina, nist, imma, twais, eisarn, swikn, uhteigo, brunna, faíraþro etc!
(The words in these heavenly languages are just so pretty and so poetic and so cool, they are true works of art, so I definitely wish I had learnt them in childhood, and I highly recommend learning them all together, as they are way too pretty not to know and so magical!)
Respect the hell out of rejecting a sponsorship segment from better help
Brilliant. And all in less than 15 mins. "Beer goggles for your mouth" cannot be improved upon
I learned how to speak Spanish by trying to translate random every sentence I thought and then immediately looking up any word or construction I couldn’t produce.
I’m trying to learn a third language (German) now, and it’s bizarre, but every time I try to speak it, I slip back into Spanish haha
haha when I was learning french I'd try to translate every song i really liked (i still have most of them memorized 20 years later T_T) and now that I'm trying to learn Swedish I keep.... trying to slip into french. I feel you!
I think this happens to most people.
I'm learning Portuguese for my friends, English is my first language, but they said I spoke it with a French accent 😂 it's funny how we slip into our second languages when speaking a third.
Spot on excellent advice. I think too many RUclips influencers forget that learning a foreign language often requires a bit of work. When I moved to German speaking Switzerland-already knowing German at the B2 level-I still worked hard. When planning an errand or preparing for a meeting, I would look up vocab and write out some scripts to memorize. The planning and prep is essential. I remember when natives stopped switching to English-when I stopped uh-ing and ah-ing. I still prepare. For instance, I just joined an archery club. What did I do? I watched a boat-load of archery videos in German.
I've been doing a mix of pimsleur, clozemaster, italki, and harassing my friends who are native speakers every chance I get and it's worked very well in my target languages in the past.
Pimsleur helps so much! Game changer for me! I also use HelloTalk.
I went to Brussels a few months ago, and I was feeling fairly good about my French, until I actually tried to talk to someone, and then I felt like the only word I knew was "quoi?" because I said it about a thousand times
My earbuds were having connective issues when I first clicked on this and I thought the silence was on purpose
LOL
There's also the part where irl people don't speak with pauses between every word, but the end of one word flows together with the beginning of the next one.
I love watching Twitch streamers in lieu of a language tutor or language exchange partner. The streamer is Doing Something, and that something provides you context for what they're saying. They're constantly using those little "ums" and stuff. They're probably very online, so their speech is probably more Englishy than average. And there's already an existing community of people talking about what's happening on screen in your target language. They're typing conversationally, reading their typos kind of forces you to imagine the voice speaking the words.
15-40 viewers is a pretty good sweet spot where the conversation is fast enough to be active but slow enough to allow you to participate. The streamer will read your messages and sometimes autocorrect your mistakes in grammar or vocabulary. People love getting viewers from foreign countries and they love when you take an interest in their culture. I've met a lot of cool people who speak little or no English on Twitch. I highly recommend searching for streamers who speak your target langauge.
Algorithm leave a comment followers numbers engagement viewership analytics channel growth statistics, if I’m being completely honest
Same, bro, same
I am trying an experiment on myself that maybe other people have tried, but I want to do it anyway. I just treat the language I am studying like it is part of English, my native language. I just speak that language out loud mixed with English when I walk the dog. (I assume the neighbors think I am talking to the dog, which I like to do anyway.) I don't care if I am not perfectly following the rules exactly. I try to use the words a lot this way and I figure once I know the words better, then I can worry about all of the other details.
I also study verb conjugations making short sentences in English and the other language like "If I tell you something, then you will be told something by me." I like to study active and passive verb forms this way, but I change who the subjects and objects are. So far, I like doing it. I don't know if it will work. I still forget words, but who knows.
I do likewise with French when I walk in the hills. Best wishes!
This is a version of “interlanguage” that definitely helps. I don’t know the research on it, but I should look into that and make another video!
I wonder how similar the grammar has to be for this to work. My study language is *so different* from my native language that it doesn't make sense to do both at the same time.
The largest problem with the alcohol technique is that it works until after the second drink. I found this out the "easy" way in France --- I had couple of glasses of red and my host family noticed that I was speaking much, much better than I had been doing up to then. Of course, the scientific method recommends "observe, form a hypothesis, test." My hypothesis was "if two glasses is effective, four will be twice as nice, six thrice so, etc." The testing was fun but consistently disproved the hypothesis -- multiple experiments were conducted. After two you're loose but consume more and you're incoherent in any language.
Also: when in the field, for every 30 minutes you actively engage in conversation, you're going to need a couple of hours to decompress. You will not feel very confident in your abilities the first several hundred decompression sessions, however over time you will achieve fluency, often when you least expect it. Others probably have more efficient methods.
Anki Cards + being very severe with mistakes + emotional images + maximum speed or it’s wrong. Duly noted. This is actually supercharged spaced repetition.
I just want to caution you on this if you're not already advanced. I tried this as a beginner and the sheer volume of cards you're going to have of you do this and you're still learning vocab (so less than what is considered normal for your Lang, mine is about 20k word and I know about 2k) might make you stop wanting to do them, which is a bigger problem (quitting).
Always be sure to not take on more work than you can handle, whole trying to get as close to the top of that as you can reasonably deal with.
I had to start being more lenient with myself, and put the higher focus on learning more words, whole doing other things (like talking to friends) go improve my speech, instead of being super strict on just the flashcards.
Anyway I hope my ramble makes sense, it's just that being too strict on cards is a mistake I and many of my friends have made
@@littlered6340 Thanks for the insights! With which language did you try it? I'll start with Russian's motion verb, myself.
@@1langueen100jours Japanese!
Honestly I don't know much about the other non Asian languages, they might be easier, but I think a lot of people accidentally underestimate the compounding effect of srs cards.
I am not using Anki, but I know they recentlyish added FSRS, which I think works on a card by card basis? So that might be better? I do everything as cloze, which isn't super useful for FSRS, so I can't confirm.
Great video, Dr. J. In my experience (and I'm a bog standard amateur), the key to being able to speak effectively is to wait.., a wee bit; listen, listen, listen...a lot; watch, watch, watch a lot; read, read, read (stuff that interests you)... and THEN speak. Firstly with yourself, around the house, and, as you said, notice the 'holes' as you do so, and then go back and fill them in. Finally, talk with native speakers as much as you can (easy now with the internet...yes, I'm quite old) and when you do so, and this is the CRUCIAL bit, when you do so, don't give a **** about getting it wrong or making an ass of yourself. Admittedly, this is not an easy thing for many folk to do, but you can train yourself. And, in any case, and speaking for myself, I find that being a bit older, for once, is an advantage. Thanks again 👍
Very helpful. Thank you!
Thank you so much!
Thank you!
I find that writing things in my target language is helpful for getting better at speaking it. One thing that I've found works well for both expanding my vocabulary and getting better at expressing myself in another language is subscribing to a "word a day" email and then writing at least a sentence in the given language. There are a lot of websites that send out free "word a day" vocabulary emails. You can even keep track of words that you're having trouble remembering and try to incorporate them into your writing on other days. I also think that a big trick to getting better at speaking and listening to a new language is interacting with it as frequently as you can without another language as an intermediary. Use flash cards with only images rather than the translation in your own language, and watch movies and TV shows in the language that you're trying to learn, using subtitles in that language if you need a little extra help, but not using your native language as a crutch. Also, when you encounter a new word, look up the definition in that language rather than the translation in your own language. Some of these things may need to wait until you have a solid foundation, but don't be afraid to leave your comfort zone.
This is helpful; thanks.
Always interesting and informative, thanks
You're a good guy, Dr. Jones
I talk to myself in the car, talk to my kids as much as possible even though they don't understand, talk to myself around the house about what I am doing, etc. It really helps getting my brain to simply think in my target language (French). Great video.
❤😂 that intro
You said that the sponsor is a perfect match as I looked down to see an ad for Hinge. Then, Lingoda was revealed.
My Ad was for plimsuer 😅
Thanks
I overthink about how my words will be perceived so much that I stumble even in my own native language.
i like this
I got lucky living in a dorm for a year in Kyiv while learning Ukrainian. So right in the first week in learning I could have little conversations like everyday just to practice with native speakers. It would start with "what are you cooking?" And then from there it could build up as the weeks and months went by. Now I am reading children's literature and really building a strong vocabulary. I read the BFG in Ukrainian and now I am reading "В Країні Сонячних Зайчиків" or "In the Land of Sunny Rabbits" (a figurative term for sun beams) and doing my own index cards (no photos though, but a lot of the words are now abstract ideas instead of easily drawable emotions and objects).
Tbh i would just talk to myself in private, starting out with small little phrases, but as i got better i started to have more options
Good advice with the fillers, that's something I learn first to buy time. And constant speaking in my head. Have hypothetical conversations with all the random people you see in the streets, in the train, in the shop etc
Hi. I really like your content. I think I've heard at least one RUclips language expert suggest that high intelligence doesn't contribute to faster or better language learning, and that in fact no one is any better than anyone else in their innate language learning abilities. Could you possibly do a video on this topic?
If you train your writing, you will be good at writing. If you train your speaking, you will be good at speaking. Learning lists of words is necessary but does not by itself allow speaking.
When I was learning English at the age of 14, I was at a point when I could speak the language pretty confidently but I couldn't understand it by listening. The reason is simple - I would always practice speaking with myself, and I got pretty good at it, but I didn't have the internet at the time so I didn't even have an opportunity to listen to it. That is to say that I don't think that listening is objectively easier than speaking, it certainly wasn't for me. They're two separate skills and it really depends on a lot of factors.
Great video! Thanks for it!
You mentioned kind of babbling to yourself in your target language. As I'm beginning to try to speak in German, do you think it's fine to babble absolute nonsense and even fake words to myself, in hopes that subconsciously there is something real trying to come out of my mouth? For example -- trying to say something and saying the first words that come to my mind.
And say I were using a language exchange app as I cannot afford Lingoda at the moment, is it better to speak just as I would speak no matter how bad it is -- or should I verify sentences with ChatGPT? Should I stick to only the vocabulary I know, or is it better to look up words I want to use?
Thanks if you get a chance to answer these.
I have been learning Korean for almost a year and now at an intermediate level. I started attempting to speak to native speakers very early on, taking classes with a tutor who could speak barely any English. From my experience, it is pretty important to try to speak early on but you must have a realistic expectation of your performance and look at it as nice practice and cool social interaction (with relatively rare languages it is an amazing ice-breaker and I made a bunch of Korean friends in just one year mostly because they initially remembered me as a white dude who for some reason attempted to learn their language).
If I could do it all over again, I would definitely spend less money on tutors in my first six months of studying. Most importantly, I would choose a tutor who could speak English at a high level, able to explain grammar and nuance to vocabulary (why one word can be used in a given situation and another is unnatural) to me. I realized that, before you reach at least a pre-intermediate level, it does not really make much sense to expect a lot of utility from speaking practice with a tutor.
Now I am studying 90% of the time with a textbook, looking up words and grammar that is not explained in the textbook, using Anki to improve word recognition (I don't think it helps my active vocabulary A LOT; definitely helps, but not very much) and actively employ ChatGPT and HiNative to look up example sentences, meanings, and cultural nuance behind different words, expressions, and grammar structures. I am taking only one hour a week and it feels more beneficial now because I can incorporate many of the words and grammar I learn on my own in a real conversation, improving memorization through practice.
I do some of that with my reading. I'm reading Maurice Leblanc's L'aiguille creuse (Lupin). I read a good part of it aloud. I try speak the dialogues as close as a person would talk. Sometimes, I read the narrated part very fast, but in a natural speed.
I literally just finished my very 1st level of Japanese, so in between memorizing the new alphabets and learning the mandatory "Nice to meet you", I don't have enough vocabulary or grammar structures yet, but I'm definitely re-watching this video in the next couple of months.
It's simple. You get good at what you practice. I read for hours a day in Greek for 2 years and knew a ton of words but when i would speak i was still pretty slow and made mistakes. Now i'm focusing a little less on reading and more on training my ear to be able to understand people because even if I can say sentences at a decent speed what good is that going to do if I can't keep up with what they say? I don't want to keep saying "slow down"
I do opposite in German all listening no reading. My comprehension after four years is not too bad. I'm able to hear all the words parce the sounds. There's still words I don't know.
@@Branden-vl9sl If you only do listening how do you gain vocab? You have to keep seeing what the words mean for it to stick. Listening is great for ear practice no doubt you need it but reading is also very good as it allows you to go at your own pace and find more vocabulary easier.
@@Hellenicheavymetal I use a srs app to build up my vocabulary. I do read the word in the target language. So I guess that counts as a tiny bit of reading. But the sentence it's within is in my native language english. It also has sound it pronounced the words for you. So you get even more listening practice. I use the subtitles to find words I don't know to look up. Add them to the spaced repetition flash cards. I do read the subtitles to find words so I guess that counts as a little bit of reading. But I don't do it very often and only for a few minutes.
Thanks coach Ram-... er, Jones!
I am always hearing about all these interesting platforms etc but hardly any of them have modern Greek and that's my target language. So I'll just continue to sit in the corner on my own 😁
Was it you that recommended 'mirroring'? Speaking along with something - like for French, listen to RFI's Journal en francais facile with the transcript and try to speak with the recording? If that wasn't you, would that be one way to practice?
just started the video but the answer is easy: pronunciation and diction. I hear a lot of english daily, and write it, but I suck at speaking it.
What teleprompter software do you use to get your speech so perfect?
"She's Canadian, but that's ok, she was born that way and we don't judge" - Instant laugh and like. Canadian self-deprecating humour... this is the Way.
How do you feel about using a language exchange for a sort of reverse crosstalk in which both people speak the language they're learning 100% of the time?
My belief is that you can learn comprehension through videos, podcasts, audiobooks, etc., and focus on speech production in a low-stress environment because you don't have to deal with understanding a foreign language spoken in real time. I've had great success learning Spanish with it.
Preemptive comment: becoming comfortable with making mistakes (not taking yourself seriously). // after 7mins I'm almost certain that this is it xD. Sure, you can be more concrete, but... If you want your audience to retain any information:::::::::: 1 idea. A bit sad that this is... true. Love listening to your videos though. Soothing voice, succinct thoughts and presentation. Being this close to the camera kind of gives away the reading, though. Merci du Canada! Suerte con todo. Edit: ight you did summarize it in the end. Good advice[s] and I'm gladly reminded of why I shared your videos in the past ;)
Thank you for investigating Better Help and rejecting it. It can very well cause more harm than help.
I struggle learning German for a few reasons, some of which you address in this video. I have a built-in practice partner, but with a caveat. Meine Frau. She speaks English perfectly and with little accent. She also struggles to translate on the fly. Apparently she cannot switch back and forth quickly. Here's my problem with learning. I have to first warn her that I'm going to attempt something in German otherwise there is no chance she will understand me. She then gets extremely critical of any pronunciation I attempt. She then goes off on a much wider tangent about the word, how it should be used, and why I have to get all of it completely correct. (Her uncle once corrected me for using Sie in addressing him....should have used, du. LOL)
Her best friend in Germany has no trouble with anything I say. She understands me perfectly the first time, every time. I think that my wife has spoken English for so long now she thinks primarily in English and can't hear words in German when I don't pronounce them perfectly. (She is a perfectionist as you've probably guessed.) Her girl friend in Germany speaks German almost exclusively and if I'm even close she hears what I'm trying to say. Just like a native English speaker might not completely understand a different accent, but gets the general idea anyway.
Anyway, that's a long way to go to say I've struggled for years to learn German. I can understand almost everything I would see on a billboard or store sign. I can understand menus and simple phrases, but I still struggle with anything more complex than asking where the bus stop is located. I just keep hoping for the epiphany to happen. I've had a few, but not enough yet. I have taken to listening to basic German podcasts....that's helping a bit. I would like to find the German equivalent of Sesame Street. I think that would help the most.
Interesting, useful video, thanks. Maybe a decline in social skills in the internet age aggravates this challenge? Anyway, I perform less well in real French chats than when I talk to myself. Your video helps me understand that phenomenon. Best wishes!
I'm learning Hungarian and my bf is Hungarian but we always speak in English because my level of speech in Hungarian is poor. Below infant child I think lol. I am having lessons once a week but I just can't recall the words needed for sentences. It's a work in progress, I just hope one day it all clicks.
Great video, only thing I disagreed with was the disdain for AI chatbots. I've used one for quite a bit, they work well. I learn a few new words here and there and it helps with me getting sentences out. Thanks for the tips.
So do you have both recognition and production SRS cards? If so, what kind of balance between the two? How do you choose which to use for a given word?
Another question: do you fail the production cards if you don't produce the answer in 20ms (or at least very quickly)?
Thanks for your videos, you talk so much sense, it's v refreshing.
Most of my language learning has come through solo learning through books, so I’m significantly better at oral production than oral reception. I prioritize learning derivational and inflectional morphology with the limited exposure I get so that I can get the most of what I get. With my great interest in phonetics and phonology, my pronunciation is usually pretty decent, so when I use my weaker languages I preface, my “blank” isn’t too good because I have difficulty understanding, but often time people will think I’m being modest because of my perceived efficacy. Finding aural comprehensible input that is interesting is sometimes difficult.
I wanted to know if other self learners experience something similar
You’re describing my life
I have the opposite problem. I'm very poor at (french) oral production - my pronunciation is fine, but I struggle with vocabulary and sentence construction - but I'm quite good at understanding conversations. I have ADHD, so I prefer podcasts, and I recently discovered a folder of Pimsleur Method recordings on Internet Archive that are definitely not the best thing ever, but are still rather enjoyable to use while cleaning the house or doing anything else. So my dilemma is that French people notice that I understand them, yet they are startled when I refuse to talk in French - because I know I would stumble and make a mess.
When I discussed this nervous sensation with my therapist, she tolde me that it's okay to express to new people that I'm having difficulty speaking French right now but that I still want to try.
so I can relate to this feeling :,) also this video was quite helpful; I had been waiting for it for a while!
good luck, hope we'll all find a way out :)
Are there any Anki decks you recommend for French sentences?
You made my day with that "social alcoholism" comment! Cheers! ;)
When you mentioned recognizing "on his father's side" in Persian, it made me wonder how many constructions like that are recent borrows, or have been invented by language users independently, hundreds of years ago, and thousands of miles apart.
I just want to say that if you don’t NEED to speak, you can spend your time with what you do need to do.
If you are learning a language with little possibility of needing to speak it, spend time with what you need. For example, if you love love Anime, maybe you only care about your listening comprehension. 3 years down the line, if you get a chance to go to Japan, you will likely have 3-6 months to switch over to practicing production.
I’m an extreme example: Latin. I just care about reading it. There aren’t even any true native speakers to speak to. If I were not also a teacher, O wouldn’t spend much time in production.
For the algorithm!!!! שבת שלום ומבורך, אחי
What about writing? I feel I can write pretty well in Spanish for the amount of time I have put into it, but I don't speak. I feel like if I can write I can speak if I really wanted to but maybe with bad pronunciation which is something I would think I need to practice. But if you are writing you are retrieving the words to express your self but they are output through your writing instead of the mouth.
I seem to recall a recent study that measured the "beer goggles" effect in second-language acquition environments. It was only effective for low quantities of alcohol e.g. 1 beer. Probably not sustainable as a learning strategy due to "social alcoholism" as ProfJones has called it.
My problem when engaging in L2 production is that I can't compartmentalize well among the languages I know. Hence, when I'm trying to speak French, graammar and vocab from Spanish will leak in. The same happens in German, only the intrusion is French elements. This reflects the order in which I learned these languages: Spanish, French, German.
What are your thoughts on "preforming" the sentence in your head, then saying it quickly?
Also how bad of a habit is it to use filler words like "like" or "yknow" from your native language in your target language?
A funny bit of trivia: there's a technique in programming known as "rubber ducky programming", if you're stuck in a problem, grab a rubber ducky, and explain the problem to it, doing this will make you think through the problem you're having without being stuck in your own brain, and it is pretty effective, it often helps you find what you're doing wrong.
So, if you need to practice speaking ,grab yourself your own rubber ducky and talk to it, rubber ducky doesn't know your target language either, so no need to worry it will be judgemental :)
I love that! I should honestly think about making a video about the jargon file - I had to use it to understand one of my phonetics professors who is an old school programmer/hacker from before the personal computing days
@@languagejones6784 Woah that would be amazing!
@@languagejones6784 I think about the magic/more magic switch story much more often than is probably warranted.
So as a linguist, why in your in opinion is it that so many language classes fixate on grammar terms and the technical aspects of language at the expense of teaching students to speak?
I tried learning two foreign languages in universities located in more than one US state and the story was always the same: Professor speaks in English most of the time and students are barely ever asked to speak let alone have a conversation.
Would it be so odd to have classes structured around the end goal of achieving the different CEFR or ACTFL levels?
There's also an opposite one.Being able to speak but not understanding. That's even more frustrating.
The method of "language learning through a significant other" is kinda famous, but the downside is, if you start learning another one, would you be dumping that person?
There's even a saying in my language, which uses the same word for "tongue" and "language" that makes it a lot more alliterative: "a language cannot be learned unless a tongue touches another" (dil dile değmeden dil öğrenilmez)
Who was the paper on Naughty Mnemonics by? I'm thinking about writing my linguistics master's thesis about it. Gabriel Weiner?
He just mentions that sex and violence and high emotion help encode memory - this is pretty well established in the academic literature in both neuroscience, learning, and psycholinguistics. You could probably track down his citations though. If you use the exact phrase “naughty mnemonics” please give me an acknowledgment, since I independently coined that!
Gabriel's book is "Fluent Forever." It's an excellent resource. I think a good amount of his resources are online too.
I would wonder with the amygdala, fear response shutting down the brain (which I would agree with), but I've also heard feel like those lessons are burned deeper into my brain. Which I guess makes sense. If my brain is in fear mode it's going to learn those lessons well.
Is Ramsey Dewey your BJJ tutor?
Haven't watched the video yet but commenting for the holy algorithm. The reason people can't speak is because they're not speaking enough. Whatever ego, sense of pride, or feelings of embarrassment you have- get rid of them. Start talking, people will understand.
I'm an American in Finland and I have met dozens upon dozens of people who have lived here for 5, 10, 15+ years and they can hardly order a coffee because they're afraid of looking stupid or messing up. Don't worry about that stuff. I run into people who speak with perfect grammar, but their flow, intonation, and accent are all out of whack and their vocabulary is lacking. They think too much and they're afraid of screwing up.
Yes, follow your routine of reading, writing, listening, and comprehensible input- but don't be afraid to output. I'm so sick of seeing this bulls**t with RUclips polyglots who are like "Before you even try to speak, you need to watch Peppa Pig on repeat for 8 hours a day 5 days a week for 2 years! I swear bro, it works! Plz, it works seriously! You'll open your mouth one day and all the right words will just fall out!"
No dude. For all practical intents and purposes don't be afraid to speak. People say that it's so dangerous to get locked into bad habits, but I've found that as my knowledge increases it's easier to just check out the grammar if I need a tip and to go from there. Do what feels right and what you enjoy, but be sure to practice your speaking.
I don't suppose you would make a shortened - and simplified - version of this? There are quite a few advanced and/or technical terms in this version, but you also make some valid points that would benefit learners of any language.
"Leap Talk," "Spring Say," "Hop Rap..." I'm sure it's obvious, but I have no idea what you're referring to.
9:18 The stresses in חיים אישיים come on the last syllable of the words, not the second to last
whats that blue thing that keeps appearing behind your head?
Have to say, AI for learning a language is pretty neat! Not sure what something means, ask AI! Got me some good answers! Etymology, meaning, use case, etc.
I don't always agree with your content. It sometimes rubs me up the wrong way. Here I felt on safer ground.
A lot of good insights and suggestions which are worth thinking about.
The first time I went to a language group my anxiety was sky high. A moderate amount of alcohol helped/helps. I have a large glass of red win and when it's gone I go.
There is specific content for a conversation, words and phrases that don't mean much but keep the conversation going.
A sort of example of this is the British set of Hi. How's things?/Very well thanks/mustn't grumble..... it's a linguistic but relatively content free conversation. If a British person asks how you are they are not asking you how you are and don't want to know (if they do want to enquire about your wellbeing they'll find some subtle and appropriate way to do so). This is just a British example.
Another thing I think is important. Don't, if at all possible, translate into your Target language. You'll be reduced to constant 'how do you say this? How do you say that? What's the French for such and such?
Wherever possible avoid this. It means finding idiomatic English and translating this into L2.
This means you are constantly focusing on what you don't know or can't say. Focus on what you can say spontaneously with mistakes if need be.
Finally speech is hardly ever error free. Just get it out there. Some of the mistakes will just get sorted out with time. Some might not. Speaking is about expanding your verbal expression over time and with practice.
Sabbath shalom my friend. See you on Sunday!
So, I have what may be an odd question.
I'm legally blind. Not quite totally blackout blind, but getting there in a hurry, more's the pity.
I use and have had success with Pimsleur But I'm always looking for better ways to learn.
Most of what I've found is, understandably, focussed toward those who can see. Flash cards, applications, videos, etc, etc - while these make perfect sense when you can see, they're far less productive for those who can't.
I've got a good ear, and can "usually" pronounce otherwise alien words with reasonable fascility. I'm just looking for better methods.
I'd love to hear any ideas you might have.
Bon… alors… à mon avis… it’s a good video ! Among the key advice : you need to store grammatical, or more simply speech patterns, equally important as individual words. And those fillers to gain a few more milliseconds ! Small comment from a French native speaker : “emmener” is with two Ms, whereas “amener” has only one. I believe the first M in “emmener” is for the sound “an/en” and the second for the actual sound M.
I was wondering if u can help me to understand how someone with photographic memory (or so they claim), studied 3 years of grammar and didnt advance a bit. Their speking rocketed but the rest of the skills didnt.
Something about their story is not adding up!
in software engineering, there's a common technique called "rubber ducking" where you talk out loud mostly to have a sounding board. the name comes from an engineer who realized that doing this to coworkers was wasting their time, so they started talking to a rubber duck instead. (although some people are really good sounding-board listeners, and they'll get complimented on being good "rubber ducks")
As a double cohort Ontarian who can only speak basic French and struggles even more to understand others, I feel called out.
It’s not you! But also, if it describes you, you were failed by Ontario schools
'Social alcoholism is not an effective long-term learning strategy'.
Why was there no trigger warning before this sentence came out?
Haha imagine just bringing a little remote control around with you and pausing all the Germans mid sentence, that would be so useful
Is prayer enough to support this channel?
Can’t hurt, right?
Still want to talk to a thing? iPhones (probably Android phones too I don’t know) have dictation input, aka speech to text. Just speak some variations of the word until it gets written on a note or something similar. 🤷♂️
Viewer engagement
My italki tutor is a big believer in self talk. She says she didn’t learn English speaking to her boyfriend, she just happened to have a an American boyfriend. But I think the self talk advantage if you can find ways to do it is real. I’m trying as much as I can for a trip to Korea and Japan next month.
It seems to happen naturally for a little while after I have a real conversation with a human being. Otherwise I have to force it. Forcing it is not as good.
“If someone is speaking, those
"People learn in different ways....."
?
Sorry, I do not agree fully.
1. Officially, they say one needs 2000 words minimum to use a language (speak, read, write, etc.), but I would say 6000 is a better target.
2. It is not just a matter of knowing words, but of knowing the right words. As an English speaker, I probably can find 6000 loanwords in German, but that will not help me to speak the language because the base language is 95 percent German words, not loanwords.
3. The grammar taught in textbooks does not correspond to what is used. For example, according to Routledge, 'je' is the 312th most common word in German. I do not remember it from my German studies. There are basic words in Lithuanian that you cannot find a proper translation or explanation for, sometimes even in Lithuanian.
4. I learned to read before starting to speak Lithuanian. I read a real book by a single author on a single topic that included lots of dialogue and by the time I finished, I could read at a fairly normal pace. That means I was recognising words at normal speed and I was seeing the words and structures I needed for communication repeatedly. It took me a month to adjust my pronunciation because no one gets Lithuanian pronunciation correct (a 2022 paper gets darn close) but my speaking speed was there from pretty much the start. In that month I also added the rest of the words the book had missed (different topics than I was talking about). But one of the things I did when reading was to make sure I understood and learned the material fully as I progressed instead of looking for a passing mark.
most of this advice is a bit hard to agree with. a lot of people focus on retrieval when they first try to study something. Few if any people are calibrated to prioritize long term storage of knowledge and most don't have the first clue how to do it because the feedback is delayed.
in terms of language what's more important I guess depends on your goals but for competence you have to be able to learn words without a lot of diliberate review. And for getting around memorising a few phrases is sufficient and you can practice them on the plane, use them on your trip and forget them promptly 2 weeks later. We've all experienced "learning" something really well and being able to retrieve it super fast and easy and then its gone days later. It just doesn't scale to the vocabularly of a language.
Did you give up persian? In your geopolitical language learning journey? 🙃
I’m still working on it, it’s just on the back burner. I’ll give myself another challenge in the fall and build on what I learned
@@languagejones6784
Balekala ! I admire you 👍
"The reason you can't speak your target language"
My target language is sign language. //badum tss//
Sigh. I have this issue in my native language.
That might be different root causes 😂
Maybe. I think a big part is ADHD. I suffer a lot from word retrieval (constant tip-of-the-tongue moments), losing track of the conversation or what I’m talking about, and struggling with ambiguity in questions (not sure if that is an ADHD thing), and then the stressor effect that comes from knowing that I’m going to struggle. It’s 100x worse in my foreign languages for obvious reasons.
@@crow-dont-know Just for your info: there is an assessment to diagnose if your have ADHD (though it is a bit expansive if you don't have insurance). And if it turns out it is your problem, there are solutions to help coping. It is certainly worth to check that. Sometimes medications is necessary. But maybe the training could be enough for you. Good luck!
@@mariefrenchtutor3180 thanks, I already have a diagnosis.
@@crow-dont-know you are describing some textbook ADHD, which I am not equipped to diagnose or recommend treatment for. But I’m familiar with it, and it makes sense it would manifest in your L1 the ways you’re describing. The other comment here might be helpful
i miss the funny intros: "And this is language jones" bits you would do
Could you do a video on using AI to practice speaking skills?
Like I said at the end: "don't!"
I'm a native Russian and Ukrainian speaker. But I can't speak research or technical Russian or Ukrainian. I learned technical and research language in English.