10.50 you talk about the edge being used among gentelmen while the tipp is used in war and conflict with outsiders. i can tell you that as a chechen i can confirm that story among our people. if i remember well the use of the tipp of the "sh-alt" in battle with your own was seen as honorless, i was also told it was to minimize the damages as much as possible. healty men where needed in war with outsider not among themselvs. great video
About the usage of the dagger, Georgia probably has its own martial arts, different regions of the country, even different Noble houses had special techniques. If you search Georgian martial arts, there are good examples of using the weapon
I will take a look. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm also interested in a particular kind of Imeretian sword. I'm not sure what it is called in the native language. It has a handle much like a shashka, without a cross guard, but the grip is at an angle more like a pistol, and the blade is often straight. And the scabbards often have a kind of 'skirt'. I want to explore this form and when/where it originated because it might be a part of the story of how the shashka emerged as a specific weapon form. Do you know the name of this weapon? And can you direct me to any resources on its origins, history and use? Cheers!
Here's one website about Georgian weaponry. Its in Georgian but you can check out it's gallery: www.georgians-weapons.com/galery.htm The main page: www.georgians-weapons.com/index.htm Also the website menu Is on the left side of the main page in a yellow font (at least in the mobile version) and the 1st section from the top is the About section 2.Gallery 3.News 4.Publications 5.Sources
I'm late to conversation - "Kabiani Khmali" means "dressed/skirted [single-edged] sword", popular opinion is that it's been "skirted" for horse riding (to protect the horse from damaging or something like that). About Shashka style - I've read some historians' "debate" about sword prominent in Eastern Georgia known as Gorda sword - the idea was that originally Gorda sword referred to a sword akin Shashka, while later due to immense cultural expansion of Iran on Eastern Georgia, and especially post-Russian conquest people began to call Persian style a "Gorda sword"; in my opinion this seems to be true based on couple of reasons - same skirted sword from western Georgia and other swords from mountainous area of eastern Georgia still had swords more in line to Shashka than to Persian one, or are in-between two styles, and the second reason is that Wikipedia says "he best and most famous shashkas of this types were Gurda, Volchek" - Gurda being similar to Gorda.
I am Georgian and I know a person who was one of a few people why studied and I might even say saved Georgian martial arts, whey traveled across whole Georgia and gathered enormous information. There was more than a few variations of martial arts in every region of Georgia, but Georgian martial art is called Khridoli (ხრიდოლი) there is not a lot of information but you can find something bout it. He also confirmed that there are a lot of martial arts moves in Georgian dance, we have a dance called Khanjluri (ხანჯლური) that means dance of khanjals, khanjali is Georgian name of Kindjal.
As an Hema aficionado, as well as a student of military history. Thank you! I do believe you are absolutely correct about the why and wherefores of using a French style fencing grip. Penetrating mail is in fact much more difficult than thrusting through cloth. This was very interesting. I had always presumed that Caucasian martial traditions had survived to some extent. That region has seen thousands of years of near continual conflict, it stands to reason they would have very developed and effective martial arts. I look forward to further explorations like this on your part. As always, your content is interesting and in depth.
I may do one on shashkas after a bit. I only have one now, but I've owned a few in the past (including a wootz one) and I've seen and handled scores of them, all correct and from period. But I may do one on the Caucasian saddle before that. Not sure. In any case it will be a while as this clip took me longer than I expected. I need to catch up for a bit with the usual sort of content. Thanks for watching, and commenting!
Awesome! I really look forward to the Caucasian Saddle! Have you looked at any of the Byzantine Fighting manuals? What little I have found focus mainly upon unit tactics with very little on individual weapons techniques. Of course that would reflect the Roman tactical focus on unit action as opposed to western, or northern European tactics and martial techniques. Your presentation on the Kindjal, the proper grip, was enlightening, in as much, as it opened my eyes to possible technique with Bronze age short swords and how they were used. For example, the anthropomorphic hilt designs of early Celtic swords. Now they make a great deal more sense! Thankyou! I had always felt that the assumption that they were primarily slashing weapons was incorrect, given the use of chain mail. Trying to use a Celtic short sword, or Roman for that matter with a closed grip made thrusting weak and awkward. As always your content has been thought provoking as well as enlightening. Thank you for the good work.
Thanks for the comment! I'll be interested to learn what you discover about using some of those 'anthropomorphic' hilts. I've handled a few original ones and they are rather odd. I think these were originally probably wrapped with cloth or thongs or something. Might be hard to figure out how they were used without perhaps experimenting with some of that on replicas.
Gentlemen, I will do my best to refrain from lengthy comments. First, I want to commend the author for a proposed link between the Caucasian dagger and the Caucasian guardless saber (lekuri, sashxo, cholauri, etc) adopted and incorporated by the Russian military as shashka in 19th century. That is surprisingly correct supposition for a researcher at the early stage of inquiry. A practical application of shashka, or let's say the method of guardless saber (that is starkly different from fencing techniques of sabers with a crossguard) was not developed on its own but emerged organically from the practical experience with Caucasian daggers, especially those early types of large and longer blades known as satevari. The dagger types displayed in the video are smaller and typical for late 18-19th century. Another important aspect regarding use of a Caucasian dagger is a traditional, long-standing restriction on stabbing in intra-communal disputes as opposed to combat in a war against foreign enemies (Russians, Persians,Turks, etc.), unless deliberate killing in a blood-feud situation. Therefore two methods of application developed. One that survived the most is closely linked to dancing, folk sports games and similar in use to arranged / restricted duels that would not inflict a stabbing wound ( in other words limited to cuts and dubbs). I highly recommend fragments of a video on western Georgian dagger. Link as follows ruclips.net/video/KRpoFZgzS1A/видео.html Compare a dagger technique to fragments from a lecture on Georgian shashka or lekuri. It demonstrates an obvious relation between the use of cutting edge of a dagger and shashka in sporting and folk dance exercises. Here is a link ruclips.net/video/NlCyaFRzQTQ/видео.html
More links on use of double shashka and dagger are below. ruclips.net/video/oH5C89gq1qc/видео.html ruclips.net/video/lxFPwvYEqVA/видео.html ruclips.net/video/DzWxBO0vQGw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/juSNd5OFblY/видео.html ruclips.net/video/8eF9agpB9Js/видео.html Best, Vakhtang Kiziriya
I hope you're not a Teetotaler now. Personally for stabbing through Mail or even the gaps in Plate-armour I'd prefer a 15/16th Century Rondel-dagger. That thing packs a punch. If you like beautiful Craftsmanship of Weapons check out "Todd's Stuff"
Thanks very much! Is it possible to guess at what names have been abbreviated based on the initials? Or are there too many names that the could correspond to? Again, thanks!
Yes. They're very impressive. But no blocks. None. They dance that way without any blocks of any kind. The boots are basically just soft, pliant leather. Nothing else...
Just watched some Circassian dancing. A few things I noticed: the precision footwork as mentioned in the video, but also speed and a heavy emphasis on shoulder agility (some of it made my rotator cuff hurt just looking at it) which may indicate that hand to hand combat may have had a lot of emphasis on the draw cut. Also Caucasian shields that I've seen tend to be small and round, almost like bucklers, which would go along with a quick, agile fighting style.
Here's a Circassian dance by Kabardinka performing a battle dance, it shows the Circassian style of fighting (using speed, lightness and athleticism) in form of art ruclips.net/video/9yAx9ihiRUY/видео.html And here's a video of a Circassian dancer of Kabardinka performing a playful dance with Circassian daggers ruclips.net/video/sLuj_NOR_bg/видео.html
@@tcherkess9695 this isn't circassian style of fighting.this is georgian (khevsurian) style sword fightingruclips.net/video/dH9176AdLFk/видео.html .with small shield and straight sword.circassian don't use small shields and straight swords they use shashka sword
I should say you are the first European who knows what he is talking about this subject. At least the ones i have seen making weaponry since 11 years old. I am impressed with your knowledge. I invite you to have a look at my work on RUclips and stay in touch. Look for knife of shirvan for instance and many other videos of my work. Respectfully, emin mammadov
Teşekkür ederim beyefendi. Thank you for the kind words. I will definitely have a look at your videos. It will take me some time, but the next video on weapons and equipment I do will probably be on Circassian/Caucasian saddles. I have two of my own, and I have photos of some very fine ones I was able to photograph in a private collection. I just have to find the time!
As a Chechen who has been to an dance ensemble, I can tell you there are many things in our dances that are new, modernised or plain foreign (from Russian ballet). Any of the big spins and show off moves are from Russian ballets. Especially Georgian dances have little authenticity, as many have been heavily reworked and made almost unrecognizable from their original forms by the Ensemble Sukhishvili (especially after the 1980s). Even if these things apply mostly to Ensembles and Stage dance, some elements have gotten transferred to our live dances. And I do doubt that Caucasian dances will in any meaningful way help rebuild our lost Martial Arts. I'm unsure if it's true, as you said in the video. But there is a wide myth or tales of how Chechens in duels would slash at eachother taking turns, and that thrusting was prohibited. I've spoken to several Caucasian people (Avars, Georgians, Circassians) and they have heard or been told that is how they did it as well. Which does leave me to believe that is actually how one would've duelled "properly" back in the day. I've done fencing for a few years as well, and I will say that the grip you presented is actually very plausible after testing it with my own Kinjal, it doesn't slip and is easy to control, although it is harder to thrust like that.
Thanks for your comment! And for the input regarding dance. Are you sure that all of the spinning, and particularly the spinning on the knees is an introduction from Russian ballet? Don't forget that the Caucasus began to influence Russian ballet a long time ago, so it's possible that the same techniques were picked up by the Russians (and Georgians, since under Dadiani they fell to the the Russians very early). Of course, you might be right, but I'm going to try to keep an open mind. When I lived in Istanbul I was part of a performance group that had many Kavkaz dancers, and I got to learn a bit about the techniques. One movement that I feel definitely is a part of martial arts is the step/half-step way of covering ground. In discussions with an expert in Bagua and Hsing-i (Chinese martial arts) I learned that the step/half-step is very important in Bagua. The half-step is like a way to 'close' a movement and retain one's center of a balance and change it in an instant. It's like a way of ensuring that the direction of movement can be changed or very quickly stopped. And I'm pretty sure that the movement of the arms with the elbows up, as well as the bottom of the closed fist rotated upwards, along with the arms bent in different ways around the torso is related to the use of bazu-bands, the armor on the outside of the forearm, being used to block cuts. As for the use of the edge vs. the point in the duel, I've now heard several comments, including yours about how that is likely to be true, so I might have to revise my hypothesis :)
Yes, as our dance rules (in live dance) don't allow for such moves most of the time, especially spinning on knees, which has no traditional backround in our dances, but are often seen in Russian ballets. But almost all (if not all) of the movements that are done on the spot, or getting on your toes, or "walks" are undeniably Caucasian. Like those seen from 18:40-19:10 in this video. The movements from 19:56-20:35 are almost all "modern" movesets that have the base in Russian spinning moves but are given a Caucasian motives or touches, such as making the spinning moves end with getting on your toes or specific poses like the "Eagle-like" stance. But beyond Spinning moves I haven't ever really seen any foreign moves. Although I have seen MANY modernisations, especially from Georgian dances. As Sukhishvili, which dominated all Georgian dance and still does, modernised heavily in the 1970s and afterwards. This is very apparent when you watch their Older dances with their Newer ones. And it is seeping into North Caucasus as well due to Sukhishvili's big presences on the Ensemble scene in Caucasus. A very big example of this is Svanuri (Svan dance), which there are some rare footages of from the early 1900s danced by native Svans, compared to the one danced on stage now. I am in no way saying any of these dances lack skill or that they are bad, just that in the context of using them to rebuild something like lost Martial Arts one would have to be very careful. For example there is a movement in Georgia to recreate Georgian Martial Arts called "Shavparosnebi" or "Blackshielding/Blackshielders" which literally does what you suggested and try to rebuild it from their Modernised dances, and end up just jumping around and wildly swinging or doing stupid, ineffective and impossible moves. As someone who has fenced, albeit only for a couple of years, I can see many of the glaring faults of Shavparosnebi, and how the emphasis on Georgian dance has made this movement far from a Martial Art, and just a dance or show. This in my opinion brings shame to our people and rich history of Martial Arts, that instead of reading any materials they can find on Caucasian fighting, or looking at foreign manuscripts which could feature similar weapons and moves, they use dance solely and make it into a show instead of an effective and useful Martial Art.
Interesting. I wasn't aware that people were already using dance in reconstruction. As you say it is always 'dangerous', given that dance is about form and beauty first, whereas fighting is about killing and staying alive. I've seen much of the Georgian dance with the little Khevsur-style bucklers and the very short, single-edged 'swords' designed to strike sparks. If this is an example of a Georgian 'reconstruction' I think they're on the wrong path... But I'm also skeptical of the so-called kindjal dance which is all about holding knives in your teeth and throwing them at the ground. It has more of the feel of something created to please tourists. But perhaps I'm wrong? Coming back to the spins, which you associate with Russian ballet, I have to say that we see these spins, and the dropping to the knees, in Zurkaneh (Persian 'house of strength' training). Given that this is the fact, I doubt that the spinning and doing so on the knees, is simply a Russian 'importation'. Watch the Zurhaneh footage again. I put it right next to the Kavkaz dance footage for a reason. The Zurkaneh is less graceful, less skilled, compared to the Caucasian dance, but that's what you'd exect from something that is a kind of echo of something associated with the original fighting techniques, and that had not been through a 'polishing phase' that comes with being adapted into surviving dance traditions. And yes. As dance none of those moves are bad or stupid. In fact even to be a mediocre Kavkaz dancer you have to be a pretty serious athlete. I have great respect for dancers. Thanks again for commenting!
Comments: 1. Khanjal is what it is called in turkic speaking Azerbaijan. Although it may have a different name in Turkey or Turkic speakers of North Caucasus. Over millennia dominant Turkic language in the North was mostly a version of Kipchac (at time of Huns, Khazars, Tatar, Nogay and Mongol and post Mongol Periods) but at times Oghuz (i.e. Pechenegs, Uezes, Yagbu-Oghuz). In the south Oghuz was more common starting w/ 7 century penetration of Islam, and later break up of Khazar and Yagbu-Oghuz and consequent expansion of Seljuks. 2. That said predating Turkic(or Altaic in general), Indo-European (i.e. persian/iranian, armenian, kurdish, greek and most definitely russian) and Afro-Asiatic(mostly semitic i.e. Assyrian , Aramaic, Arabic later) ethno-linguistic migrations into the region various Caucasian languages were more common. In South Caucasus Urartian and Hurrian for example are entirely extinct. But there are many unique isolate language groups that are still in Caucasus saved in the pockets of mountains despite many waves of mass migrations. This tossed salad of cultures probably spread from China to Spain, yet in most places due to a version of cultural genetic drift (and mono cultures of sort) the diversity thinned out. 3. Manna state www.ucl.ac.uk/sargon/essentials/countries/mannea/, for example, in NW Iran (current Iranian provinces of Azerbaijan) predominantly spoke Hurrian language before Assyran and later Persian expansion were cavalry men and horse breeders for as far out as Egyptian pharaos. Earlier and later steppe cultures contributed to horsemanship no less over millenia. By the time Memluks became a thing in Islamic world what by then were Turkic speaking Caucasian were the slave kings of Khalifat (as in slaves that became kings). by 11th century the same south caucasians now speaking a turkic language ruled both Iran (mistakenly referred to as Persia by most of the west still) and Byzantium. Alwhile from the time of Huns the Rome has been paying tribute to confederations of Turks, Caucasians and Iranians. This is why you see elements of caucasian martial culture from Turkey to Iran, from Eastern Europe to Central Asia. Cultures have been cooking in the same sauce with others while the martial culture having gone though changes in languages, religions and racial diversification prevailed and kept pushing boundaries for new empires of the age, all while adopting new technologies like gun powder and guns, and compund bows w/ horseback archery and etc. In Caucasus (or broader Black-Caspian sea region) now you have Christian Indo_european Speaking Caucasians (i.e Osetians), Muslim Indo-European speaking Caucasians(i.e. Talish), Christian Caucasian speakers Caucasians (i.e. Georgians), Muslim Caucasian speakers (i.e. Chechens), Muslim Turkic speaking Caucasians (ie Azerbaijanis, balkars) , Christin Turkic speakers (Gagauz), Buddhist Altaic speakers (Buryat), Various waves of Jewish folks speaking Iranian, Turkic, Germanic and Slavic languages let alone the atheists and religions of the past (i.e. Zoroastrianism, Manicheans, Tangreism and etc.) 4. Russian conquest of Caucasus destroyed a lot of the cultures, especial the martial arts. The biggest contributor was prolly the fear. Most Caucasian by this point in history being Muslim were not allowed to serve in military until Russia got really desperate in WW1. But as you mentioned some of it preserved itself in a dance form, or embedded in Turkish or Iranian cultures or Cossack cultures of the slavs. Wrestling along with other martial arts and equestrian sports are still still popular in caucasus to extent that folks can afford to practice it (as in judo team is much cheaper to maintain than team of jigits en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigit#Equestrian_Jigitovka or a polo team en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chovgan)
footwork is very important in Caucasian dances and can be interpreted as martial. So can be the thrusting arm motions and slashing waving motions and spins, and the blocking motions. i urge you to watch two caucasian men dance... even slower dances (more comon in South Caucasus) you can see that dancers never touch and the body positioning and gliding is responsive and harmonized to that of the opponent... kinda like sparing w/ the foot work and the blocking and thrusting and slashing but gracefully without the contact.. in some ways similar to capoeira.
also another use (prolly not primary or and more gimmicky in the case of this video) of khanjar could be throwing: ruclips.net/video/oZV0TzKUj0c/видео.html
@@joepulaski2960 Thanks for checking out the video. And for your comments. I agree with most of the things you've said. Almost all in fact. But on one thing I have to differ. The shamshir ('lion's tail') is different than the shashka. Shashkas have thinner, lighter blades. Shamshirs are heavier, with lenticular cross-section. And the shamshir is much more deeply curved. Further, the shashka was designed and used for piercing as well as draw cuts and slashing, whereas the shashka was poorly designed for that, with no cross guard (probably related in some respects to the Persian 'kard' which also had a lobed scale grip panels, no quillions, and a scabbard which covered half way up the grip - much like the 'Khyber knife', the yataghan, as well as the aforementioned kard. Interesting 'crossover' forms in Central Asia as well. Cheers!
I've got a Saddle in the Circassian style. But it's relatively late. The silver has a niello inscription (on the pommel face, right on the front) that reads: БЖA MACTEP КУЛИЕВ ГОР. ДЗАУД And then it has the date marked either January 10, 1919 or October 1, 1919 I've ben trying to figure out what these clues can tell me about it. If you have any ideas, I'd appreciate hearing them!
Very informative :) Our own Polish sword called 'szabla' or 'karabela' originally came from that region or Persia. And was far more popular than the western-european rapier among polish military all the way until 20-th century. Even ceremonial Marines sword bears its resemblance :)
Yes! I know about the karabela hilted sabers. I've even handled a few very nice old ones. There are a number of old Hungarian saber forms that are very, very nice as well. In my library here I have titles such as "Szabla: wschodnia I jej typy narodowe" by Jarnuszkiewicz and "Stara bron w polskich zbiorach" by Zygulski. Others too. Lots of great material in and from Poland!
yOU ARE QUITE a 'renaissance man' Ollie, you know a lot of shit on quite a few subjects :) BTW, I got my sister to subscribe to your vlog, she is gettin' quite a kick from you and Tim :)
I'm certainly no expert but I'm pretty sure Polish sources would provide a lot of information on the saber-related martial art itself. I even remember watching movies about it in school. What's fascinating is how I'm imagining our traditional regional dancers as ancient bad-ass warriors with amazing skills. Think of the styles! This would make an AMAZING comic book. Anyway, great material, keep these documentary style clips coming, superb food for thought.
Hah! I tried to get a friend of mine who did illustrations for combat to use traditional dance as well as the old manuals of arms. He didn't do, but I'm glad you see the potential there. And in terms of restoring interest in traditional dance, one way would be to talk again about the likelihood that dance and martial training were related. At least insofar as any balance, grace, speed and precision contribute to fighting skill. And then there are dances like those I discussed in the video, where you can see even more clearly that sometimes the dances were probably more directly related to martial forms. The step/half-step in Circassian dance, which they use to cover ground, is a way of being able to stop very suddenly and with the most control, even if in the middle of covering ground quickly. A friend of mine, Allen Pittman, observed that it's probably related to the step/half-step taught in Chinese Bagua (itself related to broken and unbroken lines in the I-Ching). Lots to dig into with all of this material :)
I think there is a common misunderstanding about dagger hilt grips being too small. In many cases, the ENTIRE hilt is meant to be gripped, not just the grip section. Our ancestors did not have baby hands.
the writing on the georgian sword are initials of probably an owner or a maker,the initials say (ც.გა) in english it would be (c.ga) probably letter c(ც)is the owners names first letter which is quite rare in georgia most common and popular name in georgia that starts with the letter c(ც) is "cotne"(ცოტნე) and for the lastname it starts with "ga"(გა) the most common lastname that starts with "ga"(გა) is "gabashvili" ( გაბაშვილი) so there's a pretty good chance that the sword belonged to some guy named "cotne gabashvili"(ცოტნე გაბაშვილი)
just stumbled on this georgian here: 1. Khmali is the large one, khanjali is the small one, makhvili is the general term for a blade 2. words written are კა. გა. or ka. ga. which are the two letters from the first name and two letters from the last name, either smith's or the previous owner's if i was to make a guess კახაბერ or kakhaber would be the name. as for the last name i can't even fathom
I get that some people get really pissed at Shashka whirling, it should be said, this was probably done in the period as a way to show off and practice agility. We shouldn't take them to be combat techniques, just flashy agility drills if done right. Aside from that, a great video. Personally, I've been wondering why in Eastern Europe, unlike the west, no strong dagger and sword in one hand tradition ever developed. The Khvesurians of Georgia use a broadsword (Gurda) and buckler, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, etc. used it (Palash/Pallasz) extensively as well. Sword in one hand was always the main tradition of Eastern European warriors of the last thousand years, yet we see no equivalent to rapier or sidesword with dagger, so prevalent in Italy, Spain, and other parts of Western Europe. I imagine a Kindjal and Palash would make an effective pairing in combat. Many kindjals were certainly thick enough to be effective parrying daggers and are without a doubt deadly in their own right, especially against an armored Sipahi or Hussar. I suppose the answer is that a buckler is just better, hence why we see buckler's in Italy and Britain as well as Georgia when paired with broadswords.
Thanks for checking out the content. Glad to see someone familiar with the weapons and regions roll through. The only issue I see with the kindjal being used for parrying is the lack of quillions. Most of the Khevsur equipment I've handled is pretty low quality, including the bucklers. But again, no clear evidence of sword in one hand, dagger in the other, as you mention.
@@Semiogogue Thanks for replying! That's a good point I did not think of. I guess you'd probably only see it drawn like a Knight using his rondel dagger, once he's got the advantage against am armored opponent, to finish him off.
Agreed on the dancing being a strong part of the martial tradition. Just me being an obsessed mall ninja teen just repeating movements I thought were right gained me reflexes in other areas I didn't realize, which doesn't sound like much til your in Iraq and a little more dexterity and agility means alot. Like life or death sometimes, it just makes you more adaptable to surpises and warfare is all about trying to surprise your enemy.
I’ve heard old people call this a Djata chesh, meaning short sword. The Russians call this kinjal like Turks, the word itself is just Turkish for dagger. So Iranian guys and many Circassian younger generation say quamma. In ottoman army they used the curved version of this for inline ranged troops. They have underwent many changes. Circassian man were mandated by the khabze to have it on them at all times. In its pure form it is straight not curved, and it was meant to be a short sword like the gladius. Now people will be coming here and saying the word djata is also Iranian word for sword but it’s important to understand that Circassians are related to the kurgan culture and those guys back than spoke an indo Iranian language. This weapon was also actually used as a last ditch attempt throwing weapon that’s why the handle is short. They do come in three sizes but older duplications of French travelers you will see that the handle was just normal prior to 1800s. The reason is has gotten so small overall is doe to the shashka being very effective. Warriors would throw them if the enemy was trying to shoot them at distance and if their short rifles aren’t ready. Circassian is very literal pistol is called short rifle. The revolvers are called charakha, means spinner.
Gentlemen, I will do my best to refrain from lengthy comments. First, I want to commend the author for a proposed link between the Caucasian dagger and the Caucasian guardless saber (lekuri, sashxo, cholauri, etc) adopted and incorporated by the Russian military as shashka in 19th century. That is surprisingly correct supposition for a researcher at the early stage of inquiry. A practical application of shashka, or let's say the method of guardless saber (that is starkly different from fencing techniques of sabers with a crossguard) was not developed on its own but emerged organically from the practical experience with Caucasian daggers, especially those early types of large and longer blades known as satevari. The dagger types displayed in the video are smaller and typical for late 18-19th century. Another important aspect regarding use of a Caucasian dagger is a traditional, long-standing restriction on stabbing in intra-communal disputes as opposed to combat in a war against foreign enemies (Russians, Persians,Turks, etc.), unless deliberate killing in a blood-feud situation. Therefore two methods of application developed. One that survived the most is closely linked to dancing, folk sports games and similar in use to arranged / restricted duels that would not inflict a stabbing wound ( in other words limited to cuts and dubbs). I highly recommend fragments of a video on western Georgian dagger. Link as follows ruclips.net/video/KRpoFZgzS1A/видео.html Compare a dagger technique to fragments from a lecture on Georgian shashka or lekuri. It demonstrates an obvious relation between the use of cutting edge of a dagger and shashka in sporting and folk dance exercises. Here is a link ruclips.net/video/NlCyaFRzQTQ/видео.html
More links on use of double shashka and dagger are below. ruclips.net/video/oH5C89gq1qc/видео.html ruclips.net/video/lxFPwvYEqVA/видео.html ruclips.net/video/DzWxBO0vQGw/видео.html ruclips.net/video/juSNd5OFblY/видео.html ruclips.net/video/8eF9agpB9Js/видео.html Best, Vakhtang Kiziriya
I remember studying with Scott Sonnon back in 96/97 and when he had returned from one particular trip to Russia he'd been gifted a Kindjal and trained in the use of the Kindjal by modern Cossacks. The grip and use were very interesting and allowed for a great deal of mobility and flexibility. We learned the Cossack dance as martial art too and it applied to and knife use and shashka.
You forge knives? Or do it through stock removal? I'm looking to make a modern version of these, but with the proper thumbs-forward grip, with the hilt designed based on my hand dimensions. Still giving some thought to how to do it....
Semiogogue I do stock removal, but I'm in the Air Force now and can't be much of a help to you now. Bladeforums has lots of good makers, you won't have a tough time finding someone there.
I want to adapt this weapon form (mainly in terms of materials, and keeping it a bit smaller) as a modern carry weapon. But I want to keep, and experiment with, the traditional grip - custom made precisely for my hand. And I'll probably have serrations on both sides down closer to the forte. I'll also of course use a different scabbard arrangement for concealment. Just need to recheck knife laws in my state...
That was absolutely fascinating. We've lately been interested in forging edged weapons--my youngest just finished making his anvil and he and my brother are making a forge. I already have my own hand-forged knife picked out and on order! Now that I've seen these, I might make an adjustment to the design I want. I like the re-kindling of interest in traditional dance, although I know nothing about those from the Caucasus. This is good, there is much to be learned from our ancestors. Thank you for the time and effort put into this video, I've shared all around.
I thought those outfits looked familiar--they look like Russian Cossack. I guess that's the region that the Cossack came from? This deserves some reading I think. Years before my father passed away, I found a book for his birthday called "The Cowboy and the Cossack" by Clair Huffaker, in which a herd of longhorn cattle was sold to a group of Russian Cossack. The book was written from the point of view of the senior cowboy, and told about their trials and tribulations in delivering this herd all the way to Russia. Very interesting read! Sorry, LOL, the video triggered memories....
There are many 'types' of Cossack. Not all of them adopted Caucasian dress and arms. But two groups of them did. The Terek Cossacks and the Kuban. They basically acculturated in many respects, being on the Russian frontier living with or near the Chechens, Kabardin, Georgians, Avars, Lakh, Ingusheti, Adige, Shapsugh and all the scores of others. So they came to dress like them, and to use their weapons. But don't be confused about where it all came from. It was simply adopted by these Cossack groups, and at the same time members of many of these cultures accepted Russian rule and entered the Imperial military fighting for the Tsar, and so their dress, tactics and weapons came in that way as well. But again, there are many different Cossack groups. An Orenberg Cossack, for example, or a Don Cossack, wouldn't dress like a Caucasian mountaineer.
Thanks for the added context! Definitely added to my reading list, LOL. If you have any books on the subject you'd recommend, feel free to make suggestions.
The "Cherkesska" is not a real name - it's just who Russians saw when they set foot on Caucasus - Cherkesses, and clothing itself - the name "Chokha" (as known in Georgia) as long as I know has a Persian origin, but same dress was depicted on as old as 9th century paintings in south Caucasus - they had certain elements which made these dresses stood out, but usage of word "Chokha" came quite later, again with persian influence, but it had one great reason - locally this kind of cloth was simply called "dress/skirt" and later to distinguish female dress from male dress the male version came to be known as "Chokha" (previously was called simply as "male skirt/dress"). That style of clothing had some elements that made it stand out from other clothings, it was quite different than Byzantine fashion of clothing, yes it was closer to Qajar but still it wasn't Qajar; yes periodically it adopted some of traits of popular contemporary clothings - like shoulder straps when Byzantine empire was a dominant power.
kindjal is a mongolian word meaning a "dagger".. a stabbing knife with two edges. it got to russian language with the mongols and is also in arabic as khanjar..general word for a dagger.. just as russians and arabs used the mongol word for javalin.. "jard" and many other weapon and military terms... each caucascan native group has there own word for kindjal
They started to make them a Little bit smaller because of Russian... When they conquered Caucasus they made a rule that it has to be smaller ... If you see Ingush or Xevsur you will see they use big ones
Thanks! I expect my next clip will be on Circassian saddles. But I'm also considering one on a particular kind of shield used in the East that I don't see HEMA people talking about. Stay tuned!
Bladesmiths from the Caucasus and people familiar with the history of weapons in this region say that modern qama manufacturers absolutely do not understand the essence of the handle and how these weapons are supposed to be used, and therefore they make the handle so long that the whole palm fits on the narrow part of it. Old kindjals have a short handle, and modern people think that this is because the ancestors had small palms. Here is a video of the bladesmith, where he explains about the qama kindjal handle and about the grip: ruclips.net/video/iwHS4NiZV6Q/видео.html - 3 : 38 , 5 : 13 . The handle of the qama in the narrow part should be three fingers wide, the index finger is located on the wide part of the handle and the thumb rests against the head of the nail, or is located on it side. He also says that the technique of fighting with this weapon did not imply wide sweeping movements. This applies to qamas. But the bebuts and apparently also the qaddaras had a handle of normal length, because their grip was meant to be different.
Thanks for sharing the link. However, I disagree with this person. While I do not doubt that qamas were held in different ways for different purposes at different times, I believe they were properly and most commonly held in the way I showed, for the reasons I explained. The base of the short hilt, the pommel, when held in the way I described and showed, rests directly against the palm of the hand, allowing for more force to be applied in piercing chainmail, as I mentioned in my video. And as I also mentioned, chainmail was worn in the region as recently as the 1920s. Furthermore, as can be seen in my video, there are photos showing people from the region, in the historical period of qama use, with their hands on the grip in the position I discussed. The idea of generally holding the blade 'flat' in the way the person in your video describes is silly, as in that position, most of the swinging motions would result in hitting your opponent with the flat of the blade, rather than the edge, and if one were thrusting, it's more likely the thumb would slip off of the stud, especially if the grip were wet with sweat or blood. And finally, in that position, the pommel is not fully seated in the palm, which goes back to the point I made about piercing chainmail. But again, thank you for your comment and for the link.
@@Semiogogue My comment primarily concerned the issue of the short handle and the opinion of some people that it is designed for a small hand, what you mentioned on 14:40. I agree with the grip method you described, but I think you were too quick to conclude that holding the blade flat is silly. This grip method is known in different cultures, and it seems to me it is mainly used with double-edged dagger-like blades. And that's how William Fairbairn recommended holding the Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife. When thrusting , the hand does not slip, because the fingers wrapping around the narrow part will stretch against the wide one. This arrangement of the blade makes it easy to penetrate between the ribs. Here's a pretty interesting video.( I must say that I am skeptical about modern "cossacks", but this gentleman is interested in the history of weapons and their use, and his reflections sound logical. Well, the video is also interesting because you can observe the use of a dagger on a target quite similar to a human body ..) : ruclips.net/video/pmmHeFrhr4E/видео.html At 3-32, he talks about it and demonstrates a thrust. At 4-33, he talks about the various striking techniques that this blade can be used for. For example, in the solar plexus from the bottom up and under the ribs. And at 6-18, an inexperienced student performs a top-down blow. As you can see, the blade confidently penetrates the body.Here in another video, he demonstrates both methods of gripping,"flat", and the one that you described - 4-46 and 5-12: ruclips.net/video/JbFiGV2aT7Y/видео.html Probably all of the above applies to a greater extent to small and medium-sized qamas. I beg your pardon for my English and for the verbosity) I have to use simple words and phrases to express my thoughts.
@@user-cl2tc5kd8k Your English is excellent. You write very clearly. And I too am verbose :) I don’t doubt a ‘flat grip’ could be used, and occasionally was, but that grip is more appropriate for a shorter knife, used close in. As I said in the clip I’m sure a hammer grip was used as well. These weapons were doubtless held in different ways for different purposes. But I do not doubt that the primary grip, and the one for which the hilt form was designed, was the one I described. Take a qama in your hand, and hold it with the ‘flat grip’ you think was the primary grip, then hold the weapon out at arms length. You’ll see that you can’t point it out wards in a straight line. The blade will be angled upward - or if you rotate your wrist it will be angled to one side or another. That’s because the ‘flat grip’ is suited for thrusting upwards in very close quarters. This is to say it’s appropriate for a much shorter knife used at closer range. It is possible to reorient your grip a bit and get the point to align straight ahead, but the grip is less secure. You have to change the angle and hold it more loosely. It works if you’re stabbing a goat wearing a jogging jacket, but these men had to penetrate chain mail. And it wasn’t mail with butted links. It was mail with riveted links. Try your ‘flat grip’ with slippery wet hands striking against a resisting surface. Just be careful not to cut yourself when your hand slips forward over the blade. Now take the weapon and use the grip I’ve shown. You’ll find that it points straight outwards perfectly. The tip forms a smooth and straight extension of the arm when thrusting. Most importantly, you’ll see that by simply rotating the wrist you can choose to orient the edges horizontally or vertically in your thrust. So the grip I’m talking about allows you to align the blade flat (for sliding between ribs or whatever) even though the grip is not flat. And the grip is very secure. Actually hold one and try the things I’m talking about and you’ll see what I mean. Use the ‘flat grip’ you propose, as well as the one I propose, and stab something solid. You’ll see which one allows you the most flexibility, the most reach, and the most force for penetrating resistance. Again, they could be gripped in different ways, and doubtless were. But there was a primary grip and I’ve correctly identified it. Just look at the photos from the period. It’s important to recognize that the qama or kindjal is not a fighting knife. It is a short sword. The grip can be changed allowing it to be used similarly to a fighting knife, but it isn’t one. Again. It’s a short sword. I’ll go a step further. Look at Caucasian dance. There are many moves in the men’s dance that involve the arms held at full length, with the wrists/fists turning up and then down - orienting palm up and palm down with arm outstretched. This corresponds to orienting the blade differently in a full thrust. Try this with the two grips and you’ll see which one is most natural. Look at the dance, and some vestiges of the lost martial art will be revealed. These men specialized in leaping across distances, thrusting at full extension, and this sort of thing. Yes, they could use the qama like a fighting knife and stick it into a hanging goat or sheep’s carcass. But if you see the dancers you’ll recognize they were capable of far, far more. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
@@Semiogogue «Take a qama in your hand, and hold it with the ‘flat grip’ you think was the primary grip»-first of all, I must note that I do not consider and do not insist that this is the primary grip!) «Just be careful not to cut yourself when your hand slips forward over the blade.»- please don’t worry, the only qama I have is a souvenir with a blunt blade for hanging on the wall.) Nevertheless, its hilt allows me to experience its peculiarities and experiment with different grips. Several years ago I tried different grips including the one you suggested and I agree with your words. But! Neither I, nor the gentleman with the dead goat, claimed that this «flat» grip was the perfect grip for piercing armor. But what did I notice during my unscientific experiments with grips. In both cases, it was not difficult for me to point the blade in a straight line, but, indeed, in the case of the "flat" grip, I decided that it would be preferable to shift the grip a little back so that the pommel rested against the base of the palm and the hand would not slip onto the blade upon impact. And the same with the grip recommended by you, thus, as you demonstrate at 14:39. The fact is that the handle of my kindjal had a rather large pommel, and trying to place my thumb on the expanding part, I lost the pommel support at the base of the palm. I also thrust the kindjal in the sheath into the wall and the floor and did not very strong pushes, and it seemed to me that with any grip the hand would not slip onto the blade, because the index finger wrapping around the narrow part of the hilt would stick into the expanding part. If you grasp the wide part with your thumb and forefinger (like a Scottish dirk), then the middle finger will prevent slipping. I was comfortable with both grip options, but I got the impression that if I had to use such a weapon for piercing-cutting-chopping blows, then I would prefer a saber grip in the manner suggested by you, or a grip where the thumb and forefinger are wrapped around the extension,in a manner of «handshake» grip. If we focus on the use of piercing and cutting blows without wide swings, then the "flat" grip seemed to me quite convenient. But all of the above applies to the situation with the enemy not wearing armor. When you suggest "Take a qama in your hand" what kind of kama do you mean? After all, they differ in size, width and length of the blade, size and shape of the hilts. Like your three examples in the video: at 12:47 - the handle of this Georgian kindjal seemed to me the most comfortable, at 13:11 - I got the impression that the place where the thumb rests is too square, and at 13:36 - the hilt seems quite long and you may need to move the grip back to support the pommel more securely. Well, maybe I'm wrong, because I have to judge by the video. "Again. It's a short sword." - kindjal is kindjal) Pay attention to how it is positioned on the belt, this position means that it can be grabbed with both forward and reverse grip. The sword is not held with a reverse grip. In many languages the word "dagger" is different forms of the words qama (къамэ,kama,хъяма,kamë) and kindjal (hançer,xanjar,xəncər,kanjar-қанжар,xençer,chinjaal). And you yourself used the term "dagger" in your video.(But I understand what you mean by using the word "sword", because large and medium qamas are really comparable in size to gladius and xyphos which are swords). You often mention chain mail, and I would like to remind you of what you also mentioned in your video: kindjal was part of a group of weapons. And in close combat, the warrior had the opportunity to use, first of all, long-bladed weapons: a saber, shashka, palash-broadsword or pike. And to fight the enemy dressed in chain mail, they also had a choice of weapons, for example, the so-called Circassian saber with a bayonet tip: avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-zen_doc/1538903/pub_5de935c77cccba00b1c30da2_5de9429e5ba2b500adf0be03/scale_1200 Also, do not forget that qama is not ideal for a warrior on a horse. You are right when you say that chain mail was used in the Caucasus until the 20th century. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Circassian professional warriors of noble origin wore chain armor. But was its use so widespread in the 19th century? During the Caucasian wars, the warriors of the Caucasus encountered Russian troops who did not wear chain mail. So was it so important to concentrate on the mail-piercing techniques? During this period, shashka becomes popular, also adopted by the Russians, and this is far from an ideal weapon for breaking through chain mail. Yes, we should not forget that in mountainous areas in winter, people wore thick multi-layered clothing, and the penetrating properties of weapons in this situation are important. But here the tricks shown by the gentlemen with the goat will be quite enough.) Kindjal was widespread far beyond the Caucasus, in regions where chain mail has not been seen for a long time. This suggests that it was a versatile weapon. This weapon was widely used in the Russian army, by the Cossacks, as well as by units drawn up in the Caucasus after its conquest, and again, hardly these soldiers were afraid of a collision with an enemy in chain mail. Please, take a look at the famous photograph of Imam Shamil taken after his surrender. According to the story of the author of the photograph, Count Nostitz, Shamil behaved tensely because he noticed Russian dragoons watching him and was expecting an attack, he was ready to fight. It is hardly possible to say about him that he did not know how to use kindjal, nevertheless pay attention to his grip: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BC_%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C.jpg You are undoubtedly correct about the grip you demonstrated, but why then the rest of the hilt parts? For example, the expansion at the blade, the front and back head of the rivet? These are not just decorations, it prevents slipping and twisting in the hand. If the blade was intended primarily for penetration, then why does it has good cutting and slashing properties? What I wanted to say is that the hilt of a kindjal implies different grips, and this is inherent in its design. When I came across your video on youtube, I was pleasantly surprised by the logic of your arguments and the level of historical and ethnographic research, and by the fact that you even drew attention to the role of Caucasian and Persian dances in the training of warriors. And I did not set out to argue with you, but simply wanted to supplement some points with the information I read. And I was very happy when you brushed aside the tales of "people with small hands", because this theory sometimes annoys me very much.) And thanks for taking the time to answer, despite the fact that the video was posted almost 4 years ago.
Excellent! Fascinating! Thank you for your insight into this colorful, almost exotic matter! A thought: Might these dances not only be an echo of the combat culture, but have played an active role in the training of the warriors? I would sure hate to have to go up against a man this nimble on his feet and armed with weapons of skill and precision, yessir.
I think the answer to your question is very much a yes. Dance in general is a great way to develop skills that can be carried over to considerable extent into fighting, but you can also use it to impress the ladies without having to hurt anyone. What's not to like? And I think that it was this way in the west once upon a time as well. We've lost quite a bit. Quite a bit...
Very cool video. Ill add a little info, in georgian khanjali or satevari was mainly used like a side arm in every situation, it was always carried as a selfdefense weapon and not like a dagger but more like a shortsword or a langmesser of germans. This is clear because when entering someones house the guest would leave his primary weapon be it a saber, sword, musket, pistol or any other such thing but wouldnt leave his satevari (kindjal). Also the Satevari often had a thing called Shvili ( child in georgian) a small second dagger in the same scabbard as the main short sword. This was probably used for more normal daily needs such as cutting food. There was an instance when Georgian noble Dadeshqeliani was arrested by the russians, he was stripped of all his weapons except his Satevari which he used to escape the arrest. Historical sources suggest that martial arts were practised by common people in Georgia from early age and these martial arts included sword fighting and fighting with Satevari (kindjal). One such is the svan sword fighting style. Today some practise georgian equivalent of HEMA called khridoli. You can look up that for more details. Again thanks for the educational video and excuse my poor english.
@@Semiogogue Cheers ans thank you for taking your time to talk about caucasus and such underrated topics in general. Also I didnt realise this video was 3 years old it's awesome that you replied. Subbed and shared !
Hello. Very much enjoyed your thoughts and history on the kindjal. I believe you are right on concerning the simple and effective use of this weapon. I also believe that as used when fencing an opponent, hooking the forefinger over the forward rivet head and the tip of the thumb against the opposite side of the rivet, gives a solid handling of this weapon. Your thoughts also on the relation of a culture’s traditional dance movements to their martial arts, is also correct. Thank you again for your studies.
Another good source on this weapon is RazmafzarTV here on YT. Dr. Khorasani is the foremost expert on such weapons in Persia/Iran (the place they seem to originate from).
Thank you from Ossetia. It's a little strange that are foreigners are interested in us. In many ways you are right. Much was lost bacause of the results of the Caucasian war, but we saved a lot, trying to revive. About dancing you should watch old recordings. In the modern version of our dances , there are many elements of dancing. Especially Georgian dances, there is not much of the Caucasus there, they calle themselves ballet. But they are good artist's. As for who was the ancestorancestor of clothing, weapons, it's is impossible to determinedetermine. I think we influenced each other. But the fact that Circassians were trendsetters in Kavkaz is true. Very ironically, the empire broke us, but all the nobility and Russians tzars began to wear our clothes, weapons, riding style, dressed up their southern cossacks. Although Russia has not been at war with anyone for so long.
I now I might not reach anyone, I just wanted to say that I'm pleasantly surprised the people here know of middle eastern and weastern Asian cultures as descended from the Caucasus mountains as well. Quick question if anyone sees this. Would Iberian Moor descent Arabs be any amount descended from the Caucasus too?
While there's considerable cultural overlap in the Caucasus, the various ethnic groups are all over the place. Lots and lots of different peoples (ethnically or genetically speaking) all in a relatively small area. So 'descended from the Caucasus' could mean Persian, Turkic/Mongol, 'Circassian', Avar, Georgian, Lakh, Jew, Armenian, Russian, etc. If you're looking for people of Caucasian descent (bearing in mind what I said about how that's genetically not at all a uniform thing) you'll find most of them today in Asia Minor (today's Turkey), the Levant (today's Syria, Jordan, Israel, etc.), and Egypt. Going back to the period when the Muslims controlled the Iberian Peninsula you might have had some number of Mamluk slaves originally from the Caucasus, but you would have had Arabs, North African Berbers, European converts as well as native populations, Jews, etc. So even if we leave aside the idea that 'Iberian Moors' were ever mostly of 'Arab' descent (which I would question), I would doubt that you'd find much genetic material represented that's directly from the Caucasus.
Very interesting. You make an exceedingly logical argument. I hope someone deep into researching these subjects will follow your line of reasoning to see what may be unearthed. And thank you for the detailed close up shots, the craftsmanship of those weapons was beautiful. The scabbard and hilt decoration was exquisite.
Thank you. It's just a 'one off' relative to the other channel content. So the rest of it might not be your style. But you've inspired me to get doing another video on Circassian saddles onto my 'to do' list. Cheers!
@@Semiogogue I am watching one of your vids and I have to say that while I find your perspective interesting, I really thought that your channel was about the Caucasus / HEMA. I don't tend to consume youtube for political matters but perhaps you are worth making an exception, as you and I are aligned on at least some things ;-) For example, that you criticise multiculturalism while having a Chechen tcherkesska as a decoration in the background might seem like a contradiction at first, but IMO it conveys that you have great respects and admiration for some foreign cultures, which is not mutually exclusive with not wanting them as neighbours. This is something that the liberal, mainstream media pretends not to understand. But back to the Caucasus, it is an absolutely fascinating region and it has indeed produced the best warriors the world has seen. Being a sport fencer I absolutely buy your theory on the pistol grip. By the way, the dance you are referring to is unique, the Lezginka. It is indeed a dance with many martial elements and that is clear. However, perhaps one thing that your vid does not mention is that it is an "eagle trying to seduce a swan" dance. The man imitates an eagle, and the woman imitates a swan. So that drifts away from a martial concept. I really wish that more of us Westerners would recognise the Caucasians for the awesome warriors they are. Your knowledge of the Caucasus is impressive, fine Sir.
Thank you! I got a modern reproduction of one because I wanted a gladius and this was cheaper and had a similar (generally) blade. But it is an interesting weapon in its own right! Glad to hear / learn more about it! Would love to get a better made one or even a functional solid antique example. The ones you had there were simply stunning...
This is G.E.O.R.G.I.A.N weapon and not Russian russia is not Georgia. Georgia is independent country. Russia is an occupier. 20% of Georgia is ocupied by Russia. GEORGIA IS INDEPENDENT COUNTRY 🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪
Perhaps traditional qama is not made big and has short hilt to provide easy maneuver by fingers and thumb. Could it be that this weapon is used for emergency or backup such flicking or throwing? For bit demonstration of dagger throwing click on ruclips.net/video/qrxJYzuKoyY/видео.html
Thank you. Both from an Anthropological and and military view. I love watching the Leshinka. Also interesting is to see is the Thikr circles amoung Chechens. I would love to visit that region some day. Hopefully peace prevails and it is safe.
Cheers! And, yeah. I've heard old recordings of zhikr ceremonies. An odd driving single beat. Rather like you hear with North American shamans. ONE ONE ONE ONE. I wouldn't expect peace any time soon, sadly.
In just two very fascinating days from looking more into the Russian Dragoon saber, that I was considering, buying from a few other possible choices, to the discovery of the Shashka sword and on into the history of the Cossacks and their extensive martial history and watching countless videos til my eyes bled, I have to agree, 100% with your assertions. The manual that HEMA seeks for the guard less Shashka sword is there with the Cossacks and the Hoopak, which I think is what they call their dance. There is much more practicality even in the Sword Dance than I think most people give credit for. It's an exercise that leads into other forms of exercise and it has philosophies quite similar to Russian Systema martial arts. I'm definitely buying a Shaska or at least the Dragoon saber! lol! Don't be surprised if I turn into a Cossack in the next couple of years, either. They are fascinating people!
Which ties to American 'Buck Dancing'. Which ties to tap dancing. And Buck Dancing is also associated with rodeos, and can involves a heeled boot. Compare to Flamenco, with a horseman's boot, and the fact that bull fighters and dancers share certain characteristics and sometimes even come from the same families...
maybe...some Irish arts look very arabic to me and others. The saying is that keeping shoulders straight is a sign of opposition to the British. Am not sure, my ex was Irish but not me.3
Lack of the real proves plus everlasting competition amongst the Caucasian nations on who is the most anciet and badass makes it almost impossible to find out where Qama really comes from. But some ethnic representatives being more ambitios and active claim qama being solely their invention just like the "cherkesska" (which in fact has different names in different languages of the region) and the rest of the traditional look of people residing at Caucasus. The truth is that every ethnic group like chechens, dagestans, karachays, adyghes, ingushs or balkars or etc of Caucasus had their own style of qama dagger, or the long sword nowdays called "shashka". Anyone claiming they were the ones to invent those is wrong unintentionally or knowingly
Do you know a good smithy where they still make them in the traditional way with the right handle length and everything? Those I might have found don't ship to Europe only in Russia...
I think you'd do just fine working with a local bladesmith. The correct handle length depends on the dimensions of your hand. It's a full tang with the same profile as the grip. And the simple grips are just two pieces of wood, horn or ivory fixed in place with two or three rivets. Work with someone local, and provide them drawings, etc.
Kindjal actually means " Hinc Al " i.e take revenge . Kama comes from Kam and it is the name of God ; Kama means To the God. Both Turkic in origin. Circassians call it Khame which means " smell of grave ".
Thanks for commenting. Any references for this in English or Turkish? Not that I'm contesting your assertion, I'd just like to be able to get the references because I'm working on translating a Circassian text so it would be useful.
It's in Ottoman. Yani, Osmanlıdır. Written by a Bzhedukh: Mustafa Mahir Effendi. You've probably read the modern Turkish translation by Mahmut Fidan. I'm sure it's online. I'm translating the same text into English, but I'm working from the Ottoman original (the Fidan translation has lots of mistakes). It's a slow process, but I'm past the halfway point. Most of the trouble is the old words. Luckily the Arabic text was produced on a printing press; it would be impossible for me to decipher otherwise :) It was a great experience to learn that the Circassian who leapt his horse from the walls of the fortress in Cairo during the massacre of the Mamluks (and lived) was named "Heshjukur". I'll be done translating it within another year - maybe 2.
Working with the Kinjal, seems that a lot of this is about riding a horse, left hand on the saddle/Kinjal, yes? Also, the thrust dagger grip can be two-hand during part of the strike? Curved moving sideways, into the heart, rotating the blade?
Good luck getting two hands onto anything but the largest of kindjal handles. As for its possible use on horseback, one can't rule it out, but it doesn't provide much reach. And bear in mind that mounted men were generally wealthier than those who went only on foot, and hence were more likely to carry a suite of weapons including the shashka. As for keeping one hand on the saddle remember that these folks were used to firing bows and long guns from the saddle while at a full gallop, which requires two hands. That said, many of the djigit maneuvers involved holding onto the high pommel and cantle of the saddle.
Hey i have just bought a kindjal few weeks ago in esteren turkey close to siryan irak border. Could i send you some photos? I had no idea at that time that it is a kindjal:)
Are these the blades carried by the Hussars or the Cossacks? I Fucking LOVE the equestrian (specifically equitation-like) posture and bearing of those dudes dancing! -I have a -highly-polished-black-boot -fetish- that is, I really, really, really love tall black boots on men, or really anyone. Also you got me onto a roll again with the Wikipedia addiction, (Thanks!) I spent past -two hours- whole entire evening reading about the Hussars and the Cossacks and did some con.-ed. (Aka continuing education) on those fascinating groups. I think that I was a Cossack soldier or a Hussar in a past life. Who knows? Maybe you were too.
Ghetto Medic - I'll probably do a clip on Circassian saddles here after a bit. I have two of them, and I've been lucky enough to see (and even photograph) a number of others, some of them very fine. It's a very different saddle form. It uses a cushion. Stirrups are slung high for a bent-knee riding position. They don't post. Stirrups have platforms instead of bars so that people wearing them place the ball of the foot in the stirrup. Three girth straps for real stability. And a high pommel and cantle for 'trick riding'.
Oh snap!! I adore military saddles, they're my favorites, next to, of course, my fox hunting saddle, and my dressage one.;-) I've had the privilege of riding in a Civil War era McClellan saddle & may buy an Army surplus one off of my buddy. Also, I caught that you said- "After a bit?" What a cool pun. Namaste
I wish you were closer to me. I want to pull out all the tack, make the necessary repairs, and get one of my saddles onto a horse to check it all out. I have everything, I think... Maybe I know someone down this way. I'll have to give it some thought...
I have to say the craft work on these blades are exquisite. That alone must of taken a few man hours toiling away to get blade just right. What's the weight like in the hand--more specifically are your blades balanced well? I did some linear katana work in Bujinkan (Taijutsu) for a few years which I found enjoyable. One last question have you looked at or used kettlebells,Indian clubs as a physical training method. Thanks based Elric.👍🏻 You may like this MA from Russia called Systema: ruclips.net/video/SWAQG2k4FZs/видео.html
Out of the three kindjals in my video two are well balanced (the longest and the shortest) while the medium length one (relatively speaking) has a point of balance well forward of the hilt. But the other two are quite nimble and responsive, and even the less well-balanced one is perfectly functional. And yes. I use both metal and wooden Indian clubs, as well as 4 lb medicine balls that I can palm and use in pairs in wrist strength exercises. They help to break things up so I'm not always exercising my hands flexed closed...
Semiogogue very cool, the blades are super nice great pieces of craft man ship. I'm going to get a leather medicine ball soon for my body weight training. Do you know you can build up wrist strength by simply hanging of a pull bar (I think it's called a dead hang). Thanks Professor. 👍🏻
Yep! I 'hang' with a number of grips. We're on the same page :) Definitely give pairs of medicine balls a try. I use 4 lb, but I went very slowly starting with them. You can injure yourself VERY easily if you're not careful. Basically palm the two of them, one in each hand, then slowly hold them out in different positions, while rotating the whole hand inwards and outwards. The point is to work the wrist joint and all the small muscles that create strength there, in complete movements. I think you'll find it strengthens your wrists in ways that other exercises can't. When I say rotate the hands, I mean something similar to this, but with a palmed 4 lb weight in each hand: ruclips.net/video/np0IBfeU0jM/видео.html Of course this is just dance, but my point is to do it under weight. And again, go slowly. And don't do anything that creates the least pain. You have to take your time working up into it. Weeks. Until you've gotten into it and developed the tendon anchoring in the bone you can pop and tear small muscle groups quite easily. I want to emphasize this. You were warned! But once you get used to it you can then move to combining the hand and arm movements like this: ruclips.net/video/8W6BZl8CcfA/видео.html Again, I'm talking about doing it with weight. Imagine she's holding one of those medicine balls in each hand. It smooths the bearing surfaces of the joints, and tightens everything up. Even working the tiny muscles that come together to create strength in odd ways. And of course using the full arms with weight at full extension it will work things all the way down to your 'core'. Enjoy!
Actually, the dress is not Persian or that non-sense the dress is a Circassian dress and no other countries dress that's the truth + where did you get that information from its almost all wrong
I said the cherkesska *derived* from Qajar period Persian dress. And it's not nonsense. Of course there are differences; the Qajar version had no cartridge pockets across the breast (an innovation that came from the period of Ottoman occupation/trading in the 17th and 18th centuries). As for your claim that it is the dress of no other country, what about Lakh people? What about Avars? What about Terek and Kuban Cossacks? What about Lezgins? What about Mingrelians? What about Azeris who wore similar dress. Laz? Even Jews in the Caucasus were known to wear similar dress.
@AP chemistry course what kind of nonsense is that? Russians named the dress "Chrkesska" because the first people they encountered wearing them were Circassians since Circassia stretched the furthest north from the Caucasus mountains.. If they'd discovered Chechens first they would've probably named it "Chechenska". Also, the earliest depiction of Chokha in the Caucasus is on a painting of a Georgian noble. And the name "Talaveri" is also first mentioned in Georgian writing. Having said that we still don't know who was the first to use and incorporate chocka as a national dress but anyone who makes claims with any certainty is talking nonsense that's for sure.
@@username7735 why don't you read what I said one more time before you say that i was talking none sence because I said that the dress isn't Persian and don't try to convince me that it's Persian because it's not and it's a circassian cloth wether anyone liked it or not a fact is a fact and cannot be changed.
@@APchemistrycourse It's not Circassian, doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, primary sources disagree with you. And before you go any further. no, I'm not interested in a nationalism infused pseudo caucasian history lesson tyvm.
A lot of eastern european swords come from steppe asiatic and middle eastern swords/daggers. A lot of people also aren’t aware that the europeans that exist today long long ago come from the steppes of asia as well. Caucasian weapons come from turkic steppe weapons, as well as middle eastern scimitars, i suggest try giving kiril rivkin’s “a study of the eastern sword” a read :). Wonderful video nonetheless!
@@ChromeMan04 turkic and nomadic people dont originate from east asia. the steppes are in central asia and the panonnian steppe, and mongolians come from siberia, as well as many northeast asians like myself. our ancestry goes back to siberia which is near the steppe, so you're wrong on the first one, second one you're closer :)
A comment or two, if you don't mind. The correct pronunciation of the weapon has a stress on the last syllable, not the first. It is "keen-DJAL". I just noticed it was a recurring error, and you'd want to know about it. Second, I feel you're too quick to dismiss the "baton twirling" of the shashka, (known in Russia as "Flankerovka") In addition to developing your ability and movement, it is a legitimate, historical martial "art" form. When you see people standing still and twirling the blades, it just means they haven't mastered the footwork yet. The twirling of the blades DOES have a combative application, and its equivalent is not found in western fencing manuals. Russia and the Caucasus are at the juncture of Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia. There will be a more syncretic martial philosophy.
Syncretic? Definitely. The Caucasus is, as you pointed out, a major cultural crossroads. No disagreement there. And thanks for the observation about pronouncing 'kindjal'. I first came across these weapons in Turkey so I learned about them as 'kama' and only started saying 'kindjal' when I realized even fewer people had heard of kamas than had heard of kindjals. I don't doubt the twirling of the blades can have application in combat. The issue I have is that the twirling that I've seen has completely devolved into a decorative flourish. All one has to do to see whether any of it will prove useful is to see whether the movement actually brings the edge to bear on anything, or even permits one to 'index' whether the edge is aligned for a cut - assuming that there are cases where you might wish to present the flat, for example. From what I've seen the people standing around twirling a shaska or two don't even bother to notice how the edge is presented at all. That said, I'll try to keep an open mind. Thanks for watching, and for commenting!
I'm not putting myself forward as any kind of an expert, but I have heard Russians and Georgians discussing the shashka with the flourishes, etc, and I'll do my best to pass on their rationale. I can draw out four reasons for the "flourishes". Firstly, in a simpler era, the show you could demonstrate to your opponent, the "pre-game" so to speak, had psychological and intimidation value. If you could intimidate and bewilder your foe with fancy sword tricks, there was a chance he would not want to fight you. Second, the shahska should be kept in continuous motion, and the flourishes were actually born from continuing the movement of a slash. re-directing the blade without slowing it down. Third, because the shashka strikes from a continuous movement, the flourishes were skillfully inserted to break up the regular patterns, making movements less predictable. Fourth and last, the twirling movements might have been used while moving into the opponents space, as both a defensive measure and a strategy to put the opponent into reactionary mode, thus taking the initiative. I've lived in Russia for 15 years, this info comes from talking to different people and watching a lot of Russian youtube, so your mileage may vary. Intriguing justifications, whether they're true or not. Cheers!
Are you in the Caucasus area? I'm working on a translation dealing with tribes of the Caucasus and their symbols (tamga) from back in the 19th century. Always looking for anyone who has 'boots on the ground' in the region. When I'm done with my draft I'll need to get feedback from people in the area in order to locate old villages mentioned, and to learn more about historical figures mentioned...
I bounce back and forth between Moscow, Sochi and Abkhazia. I speak Russian, but know lots of people who speak Georgian and Armenian. The other Caucasian languages are an order of magnitude more obscure. If you had a specific fragment or text, I might be able to run it by someone here. Send me a PM.
I am eastern European. And I never understood why Caucasians are asociated with my race. You call whites Caucasian in your land, but it's other breed of beings. We are pagans they are Muslims. Edit: I apologise for my hostility, good and interesting.material as usual. But Caucasians have little to nothong to do with white people.
Calling Europeans 'Caucasians' comes from the idea that the Caucasus was the Indo-European 'homeland'. As best I can tell this is a result of theories put forth by the German anthropologist Johann Blumenbach in 1795. While this idea is no longer supported, it can't be disputed that the northern Black Sea littoral is a region filled with early Indo-European sites. And even if it was occupied by groups that were not IE, in terms of material culture it would be hard to find evidence that the way of life there in ancient times was at all different from regions that are proposed as the IE 'homeland' today. The next point to raise is that not all of the Caucasian peoples are or were Muslim. The Muslim focus is in the Eastern Caucasus. This is where Imam Shamil (an Avar from Daghestan) came from. And the E. Caucasus had heavy Persian influence. But in the NW Caucasus, the Circassian region, you will find that there were (and are) Christians as well as Muslims, and that Muslim culture was like a superficial overlay on the traditional culture of the region. And I'm sure that you will find that many Georgians would contest your assertion about the Caucasus being Muslims. The Georgian Church, like the Armenian Church, is very, very old. Not to mention that whatever the religion, most of the material culture of the region was like a shared zone, regardless of religion. Jews and Armenians, Christians and Muslims in the Caucasus all wore Cherkesskas, and all carried Kindjals. As for true IE peoples, you should have a look at the Ossetians, also residents of the Caucasus. The point I am making is that you shouldn't be so quick to assumes 'Caucasians' are a different group than whites - unless you also think that Basques, for example, are not 'white'.
Semiogogue that's a very extensive reply. Thank you. I am not a scholar, just a curious cat ^^. Those are only my observations and opinion. I have Caucasian friends and I do not identify with them in racial terms neither do they. Differences are obvious, both cultural and racial. I am baltic and unfortunately one of the last generations. Caucasians have similar racial qualities as Persians as you mentioned. It spiked a lot of interest in early history inside of me. How ever I lack of time at the moment to investigate more. Your vid. about mercurian mark have changed my life and I am acumulating paper at the moment. :p Greetings.
Semiogogue I live in Spain and my basque friends identify tem self more with my people then with Spaniards. I am not fully aware of the story, but one elder basque that was living with a Lithuanian woman told me that once.
Cheers! And yes, many of those in the Caucasus would look very different from how you might, coming from the Baltic :) But you also have Sami people and Finns up that way, or nearby... But you have to realize that there are blondes and blue eyes and all that in the Caucasus too. Not just from the Russian invasions. Also from much older peoples there. And there are literally several hundred (if not a few thousand) distinct languages and dialects all tightly pushed together in one area. It changes literally from valley to valley in the mountains...
I need to say tat your opinion about ხანჯალი is not true cause georgians were using it until russia and evan kiev of russia (very first russian country name ) so it is just lie !
In Georgian that thing is called Satevari not khanjal.
..and the big sword is called Khmali
10.50 you talk about the edge being used among gentelmen while the tipp is used in war and conflict with outsiders. i can tell you that as a chechen i can confirm that story among our people. if i remember well the use of the tipp of the "sh-alt" in battle with your own was seen as honorless, i was also told it was to minimize the damages as much as possible. healty men where needed in war with outsider not among themselvs.
great video
About the usage of the dagger, Georgia probably has its own martial arts, different regions of the country, even different Noble houses had special techniques. If you search Georgian martial arts, there are good examples of using the weapon
I will take a look. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm also interested in a particular kind of Imeretian sword. I'm not sure what it is called in the native language. It has a handle much like a shashka, without a cross guard, but the grip is at an angle more like a pistol, and the blade is often straight. And the scabbards often have a kind of 'skirt'. I want to explore this form and when/where it originated because it might be a part of the story of how the shashka emerged as a specific weapon form. Do you know the name of this weapon? And can you direct me to any resources on its origins, history and use? Cheers!
Semiogogue I think you are referring to Kabiani sword (კაბიანი ხმალი)
Here's one website about Georgian weaponry. Its in Georgian but you can check out it's gallery: www.georgians-weapons.com/galery.htm
The main page: www.georgians-weapons.com/index.htm
Also the website menu Is on the left side of the main page in a yellow font (at least in the mobile version) and the 1st section from the top is the About section
2.Gallery
3.News
4.Publications
5.Sources
I'm late to conversation - "Kabiani Khmali" means "dressed/skirted [single-edged] sword", popular opinion is that it's been "skirted" for horse riding (to protect the horse from damaging or something like that). About Shashka style - I've read some historians' "debate" about sword prominent in Eastern Georgia known as Gorda sword - the idea was that originally Gorda sword referred to a sword akin Shashka, while later due to immense cultural expansion of Iran on Eastern Georgia, and especially post-Russian conquest people began to call Persian style a "Gorda sword"; in my opinion this seems to be true based on couple of reasons - same skirted sword from western Georgia and other swords from mountainous area of eastern Georgia still had swords more in line to Shashka than to Persian one, or are in-between two styles, and the second reason is that Wikipedia says "he best and most famous shashkas of this types were Gurda, Volchek" - Gurda being similar to Gorda.
Many people overlook the importance of footwork in any form of combat.
Not anyone who's good at it :)
Todo cuenta, si es importante , y entre más habilidades se involucren mejores posibilidades hay de seguir vivo.
I am Georgian and I know a person who was one of a few people why studied and I might even say saved Georgian martial arts, whey traveled across whole Georgia and gathered enormous information. There was more than a few variations of martial arts in every region of Georgia, but Georgian martial art is called Khridoli (ხრიდოლი) there is not a lot of information but you can find something bout it. He also confirmed that there are a lot of martial arts moves in Georgian dance, we have a dance called Khanjluri (ხანჯლური) that means dance of khanjals, khanjali is Georgian name of Kindjal.
Thanks for the further information!
As an Hema aficionado, as well as a student of military history. Thank you! I do believe you are absolutely correct about the why and wherefores of using a French style fencing grip. Penetrating mail is in fact much more difficult than thrusting through cloth. This was very interesting. I had always presumed that Caucasian martial traditions had survived to some extent. That region has seen thousands of years of near continual conflict, it stands to reason they would have very developed and effective martial arts. I look forward to further explorations like this on your part. As always, your content is interesting and in depth.
I may do one on shashkas after a bit. I only have one now, but I've owned a few in the past (including a wootz one) and I've seen and handled scores of them, all correct and from period. But I may do one on the Caucasian saddle before that. Not sure. In any case it will be a while as this clip took me longer than I expected. I need to catch up for a bit with the usual sort of content. Thanks for watching, and commenting!
Awesome! I really look forward to the Caucasian Saddle! Have you looked at any of the Byzantine Fighting manuals? What little I have found focus mainly upon unit tactics with very little on individual weapons techniques. Of course that would reflect the Roman tactical focus on unit action as opposed to western, or northern European tactics and martial techniques. Your presentation on the Kindjal, the proper grip, was enlightening, in as much, as it opened my eyes to possible technique with Bronze age short swords and how they were used. For example, the anthropomorphic hilt designs of early Celtic swords. Now they make a great deal more sense! Thankyou! I had always felt that the assumption that they were primarily slashing weapons was incorrect, given the use of chain mail. Trying to use a Celtic short sword, or Roman for that matter with a closed grip made thrusting weak and awkward. As always your content has been thought provoking as well as enlightening. Thank you for the good work.
Thanks for the comment! I'll be interested to learn what you discover about using some of those 'anthropomorphic' hilts. I've handled a few original ones and they are rather odd. I think these were originally probably wrapped with cloth or thongs or something. Might be hard to figure out how they were used without perhaps experimenting with some of that on replicas.
Gentlemen,
I will do my best to refrain from lengthy comments. First, I want to commend the author for a proposed link between the Caucasian dagger and the Caucasian guardless saber (lekuri, sashxo, cholauri, etc) adopted and incorporated by the Russian military as shashka in 19th century. That is surprisingly correct supposition for a researcher at the early stage of inquiry. A practical application of shashka, or let's say the method of guardless saber (that is starkly different from fencing techniques of sabers with a crossguard) was not developed on its own but emerged organically from the practical experience with Caucasian daggers, especially those early types of large and longer blades known as satevari. The dagger types displayed in the video are smaller and typical for late 18-19th century.
Another important aspect regarding use of a Caucasian dagger is a traditional, long-standing restriction on stabbing in intra-communal disputes as opposed to combat in a war against foreign enemies (Russians, Persians,Turks, etc.), unless deliberate killing in a blood-feud situation. Therefore two methods of application developed. One that survived the most is closely linked to dancing, folk sports games and similar in use to arranged / restricted duels that would not inflict a stabbing wound ( in other words limited to cuts and dubbs). I highly recommend fragments of a video on western Georgian dagger. Link as follows
ruclips.net/video/KRpoFZgzS1A/видео.html
Compare a dagger technique to fragments from a lecture on Georgian shashka or lekuri. It demonstrates an obvious relation between the use of cutting edge of a dagger and shashka in sporting and folk dance exercises. Here is a link
ruclips.net/video/NlCyaFRzQTQ/видео.html
More links on use of double shashka and dagger are below.
ruclips.net/video/oH5C89gq1qc/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/lxFPwvYEqVA/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/DzWxBO0vQGw/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/juSNd5OFblY/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/8eF9agpB9Js/видео.html
Best,
Vakhtang Kiziriya
What a lovely bit of relaxation that was!! Now,...Back on your head...coffee breaks over! Ha!
I drink tea Sir. Tea! Hah!
Heehee Tea? Ah yes tea.
I hope you're not a Teetotaler now.
Personally for stabbing through Mail or even the gaps in Plate-armour I'd prefer a 15/16th Century Rondel-dagger. That thing packs a punch.
If you like beautiful Craftsmanship of Weapons check out "Todd's Stuff"
The blade says ც. გა. (Ts. Ga.) Which are probably initials of the owner
Thanks very much! Is it possible to guess at what names have been abbreviated based on the initials? Or are there too many names that the could correspond to? Again, thanks!
Semiogogue The most common name in Georgia starting with "ც" is ცოტნე (Tsotne). But there can be a lot of last names starting with გა.
I'm not sure that it's "ც" and not let's say two connected letters like "ვა" or some kind of symbol
i'm not sure if it's ც . though ... it look's like a combination or merged პ and ა (p and a )
@@Semiogogue it can be Pa , not Ts .. so even harder to guess
Marvellous dancers.. Looks like they have blocks in the toes... Very interesting...
Yes. They're very impressive. But no blocks. None. They dance that way without any blocks of any kind. The boots are basically just soft, pliant leather. Nothing else...
Maitre Mark - Imagine a ballet dancer with a rapier and you'll begin to form an image of what I imagine Western martial arts were once like...
Just watched some Circassian dancing. A few things I noticed: the precision footwork as mentioned in the video, but also speed and a heavy emphasis on shoulder agility (some of it made my rotator cuff hurt just looking at it) which may indicate that hand to hand combat may have had a lot of emphasis on the draw cut. Also Caucasian shields that I've seen tend to be small and round, almost like bucklers, which would go along with a quick, agile fighting style.
Here's a Circassian dance by Kabardinka performing a battle dance, it shows the Circassian style of fighting (using speed, lightness and athleticism) in form of art
ruclips.net/video/9yAx9ihiRUY/видео.html
And here's a video of a Circassian dancer of Kabardinka performing a playful dance with Circassian daggers
ruclips.net/video/sLuj_NOR_bg/видео.html
@@tcherkess9695 this isn't circassian style of fighting.this is georgian (khevsurian) style sword fightingruclips.net/video/dH9176AdLFk/видео.html .with small shield and straight sword.circassian don't use small shields and straight swords they use shashka sword
I should say you are the first European who knows what he is talking about this subject. At least the ones i have seen making weaponry since 11 years old. I am impressed with your knowledge. I invite you to have a look at my work on RUclips and stay in touch. Look for knife of shirvan for instance and many other videos of my work. Respectfully, emin mammadov
Teşekkür ederim beyefendi. Thank you for the kind words. I will definitely have a look at your videos. It will take me some time, but the next video on weapons and equipment I do will probably be on Circassian/Caucasian saddles. I have two of my own, and I have photos of some very fine ones I was able to photograph in a private collection. I just have to find the time!
Very informative & enjoyable 😉
Cheers!
Oh. My son is going to like this one!
More to come as I have time. This format with all the supporting images takes a lot longer than just bitching or ranting :)
As a Chechen who has been to an dance ensemble, I can tell you there are many things in our dances that are new, modernised or plain foreign (from Russian ballet).
Any of the big spins and show off moves are from Russian ballets.
Especially Georgian dances have little authenticity, as many have been heavily reworked and made almost unrecognizable from their original forms by the Ensemble Sukhishvili (especially after the 1980s).
Even if these things apply mostly to Ensembles and Stage dance, some elements have gotten transferred to our live dances.
And I do doubt that Caucasian dances will in any meaningful way help rebuild our lost Martial Arts.
I'm unsure if it's true, as you said in the video. But there is a wide myth or tales of how Chechens in duels would slash at eachother taking turns, and that thrusting was prohibited. I've spoken to several Caucasian people (Avars, Georgians, Circassians) and they have heard or been told that is how they did it as well. Which does leave me to believe that is actually how one would've duelled "properly" back in the day.
I've done fencing for a few years as well, and I will say that the grip you presented is actually very plausible after testing it with my own Kinjal, it doesn't slip and is easy to control, although it is harder to thrust like that.
Thanks for your comment! And for the input regarding dance. Are you sure that all of the spinning, and particularly the spinning on the knees is an introduction from Russian ballet? Don't forget that the Caucasus began to influence Russian ballet a long time ago, so it's possible that the same techniques were picked up by the Russians (and Georgians, since under Dadiani they fell to the the Russians very early).
Of course, you might be right, but I'm going to try to keep an open mind. When I lived in Istanbul I was part of a performance group that had many Kavkaz dancers, and I got to learn a bit about the techniques.
One movement that I feel definitely is a part of martial arts is the step/half-step way of covering ground. In discussions with an expert in Bagua and Hsing-i (Chinese martial arts) I learned that the step/half-step is very important in Bagua. The half-step is like a way to 'close' a movement and retain one's center of a balance and change it in an instant. It's like a way of ensuring that the direction of movement can be changed or very quickly stopped.
And I'm pretty sure that the movement of the arms with the elbows up, as well as the bottom of the closed fist rotated upwards, along with the arms bent in different ways around the torso is related to the use of bazu-bands, the armor on the outside of the forearm, being used to block cuts.
As for the use of the edge vs. the point in the duel, I've now heard several comments, including yours about how that is likely to be true, so I might have to revise my hypothesis :)
Yes, as our dance rules (in live dance) don't allow for such moves most of the time, especially spinning on knees, which has no traditional backround in our dances, but are often seen in Russian ballets.
But almost all (if not all) of the movements that are done on the spot, or getting on your toes, or "walks" are undeniably Caucasian. Like those seen from 18:40-19:10 in this video.
The movements from 19:56-20:35 are almost all "modern" movesets that have the base in Russian spinning moves but are given a Caucasian motives or touches, such as making the spinning moves end with getting on your toes or specific poses like the "Eagle-like" stance.
But beyond Spinning moves I haven't ever really seen any foreign moves. Although I have seen MANY modernisations, especially from Georgian dances. As Sukhishvili, which dominated all Georgian dance and still does, modernised heavily in the 1970s and afterwards. This is very apparent when you watch their Older dances with their Newer ones. And it is seeping into North Caucasus as well due to Sukhishvili's big presences on the Ensemble scene in Caucasus. A very big example of this is Svanuri (Svan dance), which there are some rare footages of from the early 1900s danced by native Svans, compared to the one danced on stage now.
I am in no way saying any of these dances lack skill or that they are bad, just that in the context of using them to rebuild something like lost Martial Arts one would have to be very careful.
For example there is a movement in Georgia to recreate Georgian Martial Arts called "Shavparosnebi" or "Blackshielding/Blackshielders" which literally does what you suggested and try to rebuild it from their Modernised dances, and end up just jumping around and wildly swinging or doing stupid, ineffective and impossible moves.
As someone who has fenced, albeit only for a couple of years, I can see many of the glaring faults of Shavparosnebi, and how the emphasis on Georgian dance has made this movement far from a Martial Art, and just a dance or show.
This in my opinion brings shame to our people and rich history of Martial Arts, that instead of reading any materials they can find on Caucasian fighting, or looking at foreign manuscripts which could feature similar weapons and moves, they use dance solely and make it into a show instead of an effective and useful Martial Art.
Interesting. I wasn't aware that people were already using dance in reconstruction. As you say it is always 'dangerous', given that dance is about form and beauty first, whereas fighting is about killing and staying alive. I've seen much of the Georgian dance with the little Khevsur-style bucklers and the very short, single-edged 'swords' designed to strike sparks. If this is an example of a Georgian 'reconstruction' I think they're on the wrong path... But I'm also skeptical of the so-called kindjal dance which is all about holding knives in your teeth and throwing them at the ground. It has more of the feel of something created to please tourists. But perhaps I'm wrong?
Coming back to the spins, which you associate with Russian ballet, I have to say that we see these spins, and the dropping to the knees, in Zurkaneh (Persian 'house of strength' training). Given that this is the fact, I doubt that the spinning and doing so on the knees, is simply a Russian 'importation'. Watch the Zurhaneh footage again. I put it right next to the Kavkaz dance footage for a reason. The Zurkaneh is less graceful, less skilled, compared to the Caucasian dance, but that's what you'd exect from something that is a kind of echo of something associated with the original fighting techniques, and that had not been through a 'polishing phase' that comes with being adapted into surviving dance traditions.
And yes. As dance none of those moves are bad or stupid. In fact even to be a mediocre Kavkaz dancer you have to be a pretty serious athlete. I have great respect for dancers. Thanks again for commenting!
same applies to Georgian traditional dances - even though some of them are still relevant to the point of representation of the martial art .
those dancers are absolutely amazing!
Адыгэ зыгуэр къыфхэт?)
Comments:
1. Khanjal is what it is called in turkic speaking Azerbaijan. Although it may have a different name in Turkey or Turkic speakers of North Caucasus. Over millennia dominant Turkic language in the North was mostly a version of Kipchac (at time of Huns, Khazars, Tatar, Nogay and Mongol and post Mongol Periods) but at times Oghuz (i.e. Pechenegs, Uezes, Yagbu-Oghuz). In the south Oghuz was more common starting w/ 7 century penetration of Islam, and later break up of Khazar and Yagbu-Oghuz and consequent expansion of Seljuks.
2. That said predating Turkic(or Altaic in general), Indo-European (i.e. persian/iranian, armenian, kurdish, greek and most definitely russian) and Afro-Asiatic(mostly semitic i.e. Assyrian , Aramaic, Arabic later) ethno-linguistic migrations into the region various Caucasian languages were more common. In South Caucasus Urartian and Hurrian for example are entirely extinct. But there are many unique isolate language groups that are still in Caucasus saved in the pockets of mountains despite many waves of mass migrations. This tossed salad of cultures probably spread from China to Spain, yet in most places due to a version of cultural genetic drift (and mono cultures of sort) the diversity thinned out.
3. Manna state www.ucl.ac.uk/sargon/essentials/countries/mannea/, for example, in NW Iran (current Iranian provinces of Azerbaijan) predominantly spoke Hurrian language before Assyran and later Persian expansion were cavalry men and horse breeders for as far out as Egyptian pharaos. Earlier and later steppe cultures contributed to horsemanship no less over millenia. By the time Memluks became a thing in Islamic world what by then were Turkic speaking Caucasian were the slave kings of Khalifat (as in slaves that became kings). by 11th century the same south caucasians now speaking a turkic language ruled both Iran (mistakenly referred to as Persia by most of the west still) and Byzantium. Alwhile from the time of Huns the Rome has been paying tribute to confederations of Turks, Caucasians and Iranians. This is why you see elements of caucasian martial culture from Turkey to Iran, from Eastern Europe to Central Asia. Cultures have been cooking in the same sauce with others while the martial culture having gone though changes in languages, religions and racial diversification prevailed and kept pushing boundaries for new empires of the age, all while adopting new technologies like gun powder and guns, and compund bows w/ horseback archery and etc. In Caucasus (or broader Black-Caspian sea region) now you have Christian Indo_european Speaking Caucasians (i.e Osetians), Muslim Indo-European speaking Caucasians(i.e. Talish), Christian Caucasian speakers Caucasians (i.e. Georgians), Muslim Caucasian speakers (i.e. Chechens), Muslim Turkic speaking Caucasians (ie Azerbaijanis, balkars) , Christin Turkic speakers (Gagauz), Buddhist Altaic speakers (Buryat), Various waves of Jewish folks speaking Iranian, Turkic, Germanic and Slavic languages let alone the atheists and religions of the past (i.e. Zoroastrianism, Manicheans, Tangreism and etc.)
4. Russian conquest of Caucasus destroyed a lot of the cultures, especial the martial arts. The biggest contributor was prolly the fear. Most Caucasian by this point in history being Muslim were not allowed to serve in military until Russia got really desperate in WW1. But as you mentioned some of it preserved itself in a dance form, or embedded in Turkish or Iranian cultures or Cossack cultures of the slavs. Wrestling along with other martial arts and equestrian sports are still still popular in caucasus to extent that folks can afford to practice it (as in judo team is much cheaper to maintain than team of jigits en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jigit#Equestrian_Jigitovka or a polo team en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chovgan)
footwork is very important in Caucasian dances and can be interpreted as martial. So can be the thrusting arm motions and slashing waving motions and spins, and the blocking motions. i urge you to watch two caucasian men dance... even slower dances (more comon in South Caucasus) you can see that dancers never touch and the body positioning and gliding is responsive and harmonized to that of the opponent... kinda like sparing w/ the foot work and the blocking and thrusting and slashing but gracefully without the contact.. in some ways similar to capoeira.
also another use (prolly not primary or and more gimmicky in the case of this video) of khanjar could be throwing: ruclips.net/video/oZV0TzKUj0c/видео.html
also shashka is just another version of kilinj( aka kilij, aka shamshir, aka sablya, aka saber) that has been a go to for many eastern cavalry men
@@joepulaski2960 Thanks for checking out the video. And for your comments. I agree with most of the things you've said. Almost all in fact. But on one thing I have to differ. The shamshir ('lion's tail') is different than the shashka. Shashkas have thinner, lighter blades. Shamshirs are heavier, with lenticular cross-section. And the shamshir is much more deeply curved. Further, the shashka was designed and used for piercing as well as draw cuts and slashing, whereas the shashka was poorly designed for that, with no cross guard (probably related in some respects to the Persian 'kard' which also had a lobed scale grip panels, no quillions, and a scabbard which covered half way up the grip - much like the 'Khyber knife', the yataghan, as well as the aforementioned kard. Interesting 'crossover' forms in Central Asia as well. Cheers!
Glad to see more videos about the weapons my relatives used during WW1. They were Circassians who fought in the Savage division.
I've got a Saddle in the Circassian style. But it's relatively late. The silver has a niello inscription (on the pommel face, right on the front) that reads:
БЖA
MACTEP КУЛИЕВ
ГОР. ДЗАУД
And then it has the date marked either January 10, 1919 or October 1, 1919
I've ben trying to figure out what these clues can tell me about it. If you have any ideas, I'd appreciate hearing them!
Not only circasian but kaukasians in gwneral
Very informative :)
Our own Polish sword called 'szabla' or 'karabela' originally came from that region or Persia. And was far more popular than the western-european rapier among polish military all the way until 20-th century. Even ceremonial Marines sword bears its resemblance :)
Yes! I know about the karabela hilted sabers. I've even handled a few very nice old ones. There are a number of old Hungarian saber forms that are very, very nice as well. In my library here I have titles such as "Szabla: wschodnia I jej typy narodowe" by Jarnuszkiewicz and "Stara bron w polskich zbiorach" by Zygulski. Others too. Lots of great material in and from Poland!
yOU ARE QUITE a 'renaissance man' Ollie, you know a lot of shit on quite a few subjects :)
BTW, I got my sister to subscribe to your vlog, she is gettin' quite a kick from you and Tim :)
Hah! Glad to hear it. Thanks!
I'm certainly no expert but I'm pretty sure Polish sources would provide a lot of information on the saber-related martial art itself. I even remember watching movies about it in school. What's fascinating is how I'm imagining our traditional regional dancers as ancient bad-ass warriors with amazing skills. Think of the styles! This would make an AMAZING comic book. Anyway, great material, keep these documentary style clips coming, superb food for thought.
Hah! I tried to get a friend of mine who did illustrations for combat to use traditional dance as well as the old manuals of arms. He didn't do, but I'm glad you see the potential there. And in terms of restoring interest in traditional dance, one way would be to talk again about the likelihood that dance and martial training were related. At least insofar as any balance, grace, speed and precision contribute to fighting skill. And then there are dances like those I discussed in the video, where you can see even more clearly that sometimes the dances were probably more directly related to martial forms. The step/half-step in Circassian dance, which they use to cover ground, is a way of being able to stop very suddenly and with the most control, even if in the middle of covering ground quickly. A friend of mine, Allen Pittman, observed that it's probably related to the step/half-step taught in Chinese Bagua (itself related to broken and unbroken lines in the I-Ching). Lots to dig into with all of this material :)
Respect from Dagestan
I think there is a common misunderstanding about dagger hilt grips being too small. In many cases, the ENTIRE hilt is meant to be gripped, not just the grip section. Our ancestors did not have baby hands.
the writing on the georgian sword are initials of probably an owner or a maker,the initials say (ც.გა) in english it would be (c.ga) probably letter c(ც)is the owners names first letter which is quite rare in georgia most common and popular name in georgia that starts with the letter c(ც) is "cotne"(ცოტნე) and for the lastname it starts with "ga"(გა) the most common lastname that starts with "ga"(გა) is "gabashvili" ( გაბაშვილი) so there's a pretty good chance that the sword belonged to some guy named "cotne gabashvili"(ცოტნე გაბაშვილი)
Thanks very much! Very much indeed!
I love these blades.
just stumbled on this
georgian here:
1. Khmali is the large one, khanjali is the small one, makhvili is the general term for a blade
2. words written are კა. გა. or ka. ga. which are the two letters from the first name and two letters from the last name, either smith's or the previous owner's
if i was to make a guess კახაბერ or kakhaber would be the name. as for the last name i can't even fathom
Really interesting subject and I enjoyed your presentation and attention to detail.........and not a cigarette in sight!
Thanks for watching!
I get that some people get really pissed at Shashka whirling, it should be said, this was probably done in the period as a way to show off and practice agility. We shouldn't take them to be combat techniques, just flashy agility drills if done right.
Aside from that, a great video. Personally, I've been wondering why in Eastern Europe, unlike the west, no strong dagger and sword in one hand tradition ever developed. The Khvesurians of Georgia use a broadsword (Gurda) and buckler, Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians, etc. used it (Palash/Pallasz) extensively as well. Sword in one hand was always the main tradition of Eastern European warriors of the last thousand years, yet we see no equivalent to rapier or sidesword with dagger, so prevalent in Italy, Spain, and other parts of Western Europe. I imagine a Kindjal and Palash would make an effective pairing in combat. Many kindjals were certainly thick enough to be effective parrying daggers and are without a doubt deadly in their own right, especially against an armored Sipahi or Hussar. I suppose the answer is that a buckler is just better, hence why we see buckler's in Italy and Britain as well as Georgia when paired with broadswords.
Thanks for checking out the content. Glad to see someone familiar with the weapons and regions roll through. The only issue I see with the kindjal being used for parrying is the lack of quillions. Most of the Khevsur equipment I've handled is pretty low quality, including the bucklers. But again, no clear evidence of sword in one hand, dagger in the other, as you mention.
@@Semiogogue Thanks for replying! That's a good point I did not think of. I guess you'd probably only see it drawn like a Knight using his rondel dagger, once he's got the advantage against am armored opponent, to finish him off.
Careful, you'll put yer eye out with them things!
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye :)
Depends on the subject. What are you interested in that I might know something about?
Agreed on the dancing being a strong part of the martial tradition. Just me being an obsessed mall ninja teen just repeating movements I thought were right gained me reflexes in other areas I didn't realize, which doesn't sound like much til your in Iraq and a little more dexterity and agility means alot. Like life or death sometimes, it just makes you more adaptable to surpises and warfare is all about trying to surprise your enemy.
Connection with GLADIUS should be noted, and never forgotten.
I’ve heard old people call this a Djata chesh, meaning short sword. The Russians call this kinjal like Turks, the word itself is just Turkish for dagger. So Iranian guys and many Circassian younger generation say quamma. In ottoman army they used the curved version of this for inline ranged troops. They have underwent many changes. Circassian man were mandated by the khabze to have it on them at all times. In its pure form it is straight not curved, and it was meant to be a short sword like the gladius. Now people will be coming here and saying the word djata is also Iranian word for sword but it’s important to understand that Circassians are related to the kurgan culture and those guys back than spoke an indo Iranian language. This weapon was also actually used as a last ditch attempt throwing weapon that’s why the handle is short. They do come in three sizes but older duplications of French travelers you will see that the handle was just normal prior to 1800s. The reason is has gotten so small overall is doe to the shashka being very effective. Warriors would throw them if the enemy was trying to shoot them at distance and if their short rifles aren’t ready. Circassian is very literal pistol is called short rifle. The revolvers are called charakha, means spinner.
Gentlemen,
I will do my best to refrain from lengthy comments. First, I want to commend the author for a proposed link between the Caucasian dagger and the Caucasian guardless saber (lekuri, sashxo, cholauri, etc) adopted and incorporated by the Russian military as shashka in 19th century. That is surprisingly correct supposition for a researcher at the early stage of inquiry. A practical application of shashka, or let's say the method of guardless saber (that is starkly different from fencing techniques of sabers with a crossguard) was not developed on its own but emerged organically from the practical experience with Caucasian daggers, especially those early types of large and longer blades known as satevari. The dagger types displayed in the video are smaller and typical for late 18-19th century.
Another important aspect regarding use of a Caucasian dagger is a traditional, long-standing restriction on stabbing in intra-communal disputes as opposed to combat in a war against foreign enemies (Russians, Persians,Turks, etc.), unless deliberate killing in a blood-feud situation. Therefore two methods of application developed. One that survived the most is closely linked to dancing, folk sports games and similar in use to arranged / restricted duels that would not inflict a stabbing wound ( in other words limited to cuts and dubbs). I highly recommend fragments of a video on western Georgian dagger. Link as follows
ruclips.net/video/KRpoFZgzS1A/видео.html
Compare a dagger technique to fragments from a lecture on Georgian shashka or lekuri. It demonstrates an obvious relation between the use of cutting edge of a dagger and shashka in sporting and folk dance exercises. Here is a link
ruclips.net/video/NlCyaFRzQTQ/видео.html
More links on use of double shashka and dagger are below.
ruclips.net/video/oH5C89gq1qc/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/lxFPwvYEqVA/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/DzWxBO0vQGw/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/juSNd5OFblY/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/8eF9agpB9Js/видео.html
Best,
Vakhtang Kiziriya
here is a link to a demonstration of a basic stabbing movement with Caucasian dagger. ruclips.net/video/vovsOWB_EnI/видео.html
I remember studying with Scott Sonnon back in 96/97 and when he had returned from one particular trip to Russia he'd been gifted a Kindjal and trained in the use of the Kindjal by modern Cossacks. The grip and use were very interesting and allowed for a great deal of mobility and flexibility. We learned the Cossack dance as martial art too and it applied to and knife use and shashka.
GREAT WEAPON! Make knives and do hema as a hobby. Love this sort of blade.
You forge knives? Or do it through stock removal? I'm looking to make a modern version of these, but with the proper thumbs-forward grip, with the hilt designed based on my hand dimensions. Still giving some thought to how to do it....
Semiogogue I do stock removal, but I'm in the Air Force now and can't be much of a help to you now. Bladeforums has lots of good makers, you won't have a tough time finding someone there.
Semiogogue You want something purely practical, or something more decorative?
Copy that! I'll check it out once I have my designs ready!
I want to adapt this weapon form (mainly in terms of materials, and keeping it a bit smaller) as a modern carry weapon. But I want to keep, and experiment with, the traditional grip - custom made precisely for my hand. And I'll probably have serrations on both sides down closer to the forte. I'll also of course use a different scabbard arrangement for concealment. Just need to recheck knife laws in my state...
That was absolutely fascinating. We've lately been interested in forging edged weapons--my youngest just finished making his anvil and he and my brother are making a forge. I already have my own hand-forged knife picked out and on order! Now that I've seen these, I might make an adjustment to the design I want. I like the re-kindling of interest in traditional dance, although I know nothing about those from the Caucasus. This is good, there is much to be learned from our ancestors. Thank you for the time and effort put into this video, I've shared all around.
I thought those outfits looked familiar--they look like Russian Cossack. I guess that's the region that the Cossack came from? This deserves some reading I think. Years before my father passed away, I found a book for his birthday called "The Cowboy and the Cossack" by Clair Huffaker, in which a herd of longhorn cattle was sold to a group of Russian Cossack. The book was written from the point of view of the senior cowboy, and told about their trials and tribulations in delivering this herd all the way to Russia. Very interesting read! Sorry, LOL, the video triggered memories....
There are many 'types' of Cossack. Not all of them adopted Caucasian dress and arms. But two groups of them did. The Terek Cossacks and the Kuban. They basically acculturated in many respects, being on the Russian frontier living with or near the Chechens, Kabardin, Georgians, Avars, Lakh, Ingusheti, Adige, Shapsugh and all the scores of others. So they came to dress like them, and to use their weapons. But don't be confused about where it all came from. It was simply adopted by these Cossack groups, and at the same time members of many of these cultures accepted Russian rule and entered the Imperial military fighting for the Tsar, and so their dress, tactics and weapons came in that way as well. But again, there are many different Cossack groups. An Orenberg Cossack, for example, or a Don Cossack, wouldn't dress like a Caucasian mountaineer.
Thanks for the added context! Definitely added to my reading list, LOL. If you have any books on the subject you'd recommend, feel free to make suggestions.
For the E. Caucasus you can try 'Sabers of Paradise'' by Lesley Blanch. You can also read some of the stories by Lermontov...
Great, thank you!
The "Cherkesska" is not a real name - it's just who Russians saw when they set foot on Caucasus - Cherkesses, and clothing itself - the name "Chokha" (as known in Georgia) as long as I know has a Persian origin, but same dress was depicted on as old as 9th century paintings in south Caucasus - they had certain elements which made these dresses stood out, but usage of word "Chokha" came quite later, again with persian influence, but it had one great reason - locally this kind of cloth was simply called "dress/skirt" and later to distinguish female dress from male dress the male version came to be known as "Chokha" (previously was called simply as "male skirt/dress").
That style of clothing had some elements that made it stand out from other clothings, it was quite different than Byzantine fashion of clothing, yes it was closer to Qajar but still it wasn't Qajar; yes periodically it adopted some of traits of popular contemporary clothings - like shoulder straps when Byzantine empire was a dominant power.
kindjal is a mongolian word meaning a "dagger".. a stabbing knife with two edges. it got to russian language with the mongols and is also in arabic as khanjar..general word for a dagger.. just as russians and arabs used the mongol word for javalin.. "jard" and many other weapon and military terms... each caucascan native group has there own word for kindjal
They started to make them a Little bit smaller because of Russian... When they conquered Caucasus they made a rule that it has to be smaller ... If you see Ingush or Xevsur you will see they use big ones
Awesome Ollie, would love to see more of your collection.
Thanks! I expect my next clip will be on Circassian saddles. But I'm also considering one on a particular kind of shield used in the East that I don't see HEMA people talking about. Stay tuned!
Bladesmiths from the Caucasus and people familiar with the history of weapons in this region say that modern qama manufacturers absolutely do not understand the essence of the handle and how these weapons are supposed to be used, and therefore they make the handle so long that the whole palm fits on the narrow part of it. Old kindjals have a short handle, and modern people think that this is because the ancestors had small palms. Here is a video of the bladesmith, where he explains about the qama kindjal handle and about the grip:
ruclips.net/video/iwHS4NiZV6Q/видео.html
- 3 : 38 , 5 : 13 .
The handle of the qama in the narrow part should be three fingers wide, the index finger is located on the wide part of the handle and the thumb rests against the head of the nail, or is located on it side.
He also says that the technique of fighting with this weapon did not imply wide sweeping movements.
This applies to qamas. But the bebuts and apparently also the qaddaras had a handle of normal length, because their grip was meant to be different.
Thanks for sharing the link. However, I disagree with this person. While I do not doubt that qamas were held in different ways for different purposes at different times, I believe they were properly and most commonly held in the way I showed, for the reasons I explained. The base of the short hilt, the pommel, when held in the way I described and showed, rests directly against the palm of the hand, allowing for more force to be applied in piercing chainmail, as I mentioned in my video. And as I also mentioned, chainmail was worn in the region as recently as the 1920s. Furthermore, as can be seen in my video, there are photos showing people from the region, in the historical period of qama use, with their hands on the grip in the position I discussed. The idea of generally holding the blade 'flat' in the way the person in your video describes is silly, as in that position, most of the swinging motions would result in hitting your opponent with the flat of the blade, rather than the edge, and if one were thrusting, it's more likely the thumb would slip off of the stud, especially if the grip were wet with sweat or blood. And finally, in that position, the pommel is not fully seated in the palm, which goes back to the point I made about piercing chainmail. But again, thank you for your comment and for the link.
@@Semiogogue My comment primarily concerned the issue of the short handle and the opinion of some people that it is designed for a small hand, what you mentioned on 14:40. I agree with the grip method you described, but I think you were too quick to conclude that holding the blade flat is silly. This grip method is known in different cultures, and it seems to me it is mainly used with double-edged dagger-like blades. And that's how William Fairbairn recommended holding the Fairbairn-Sykes fighting knife. When thrusting , the hand does not slip, because the fingers wrapping around the narrow part will stretch against the wide one. This arrangement of the blade makes it easy to penetrate between the ribs. Here's a pretty interesting video.( I must say that I am skeptical about modern "cossacks", but this gentleman is interested in the history of weapons and their use, and his reflections sound logical. Well, the video is also interesting because you can observe the use of a dagger on a target quite similar to a human body ..) :
ruclips.net/video/pmmHeFrhr4E/видео.html
At 3-32, he talks about it and demonstrates a thrust. At 4-33, he talks about the various striking techniques that this blade can be used for. For example, in the solar plexus from the bottom up and under the ribs. And at 6-18, an inexperienced student performs a top-down blow. As you can see, the blade confidently penetrates the body.Here in another video, he demonstrates both methods of gripping,"flat", and the one that you described - 4-46 and 5-12:
ruclips.net/video/JbFiGV2aT7Y/видео.html
Probably all of the above applies to a greater extent to small and medium-sized qamas.
I beg your pardon for my English and for the verbosity) I have to use simple words and phrases to express my thoughts.
@@user-cl2tc5kd8k Your English is excellent. You write very clearly. And I too am verbose :)
I don’t doubt a ‘flat grip’ could be used, and occasionally was, but that grip is more appropriate for a shorter knife, used close in. As I said in the clip I’m sure a hammer grip was used as well. These weapons were doubtless held in different ways for different purposes. But I do not doubt that the primary grip, and the one for which the hilt form was designed, was the one I described.
Take a qama in your hand, and hold it with the ‘flat grip’ you think was the primary grip, then hold the weapon out at arms length. You’ll see that you can’t point it out wards in a straight line. The blade will be angled upward - or if you rotate your wrist it will be angled to one side or another. That’s because the ‘flat grip’ is suited for thrusting upwards in very close quarters. This is to say it’s appropriate for a much shorter knife used at closer range. It is possible to reorient your grip a bit and get the point to align straight ahead, but the grip is less secure. You have to change the angle and hold it more loosely. It works if you’re stabbing a goat wearing a jogging jacket, but these men had to penetrate chain mail. And it wasn’t mail with butted links. It was mail with riveted links. Try your ‘flat grip’ with slippery wet hands striking against a resisting surface. Just be careful not to cut yourself when your hand slips forward over the blade.
Now take the weapon and use the grip I’ve shown. You’ll find that it points straight outwards perfectly. The tip forms a smooth and straight extension of the arm when thrusting. Most importantly, you’ll see that by simply rotating the wrist you can choose to orient the edges horizontally or vertically in your thrust. So the grip I’m talking about allows you to align the blade flat (for sliding between ribs or whatever) even though the grip is not flat. And the grip is very secure. Actually hold one and try the things I’m talking about and you’ll see what I mean. Use the ‘flat grip’ you propose, as well as the one I propose, and stab something solid. You’ll see which one allows you the most flexibility, the most reach, and the most force for penetrating resistance.
Again, they could be gripped in different ways, and doubtless were. But there was a primary grip and I’ve correctly identified it. Just look at the photos from the period. It’s important to recognize that the qama or kindjal is not a fighting knife. It is a short sword. The grip can be changed allowing it to be used similarly to a fighting knife, but it isn’t one. Again. It’s a short sword.
I’ll go a step further. Look at Caucasian dance. There are many moves in the men’s dance that involve the arms held at full length, with the wrists/fists turning up and then down - orienting palm up and palm down with arm outstretched. This corresponds to orienting the blade differently in a full thrust. Try this with the two grips and you’ll see which one is most natural. Look at the dance, and some vestiges of the lost martial art will be revealed. These men specialized in leaping across distances, thrusting at full extension, and this sort of thing. Yes, they could use the qama like a fighting knife and stick it into a hanging goat or sheep’s carcass. But if you see the dancers you’ll recognize they were capable of far, far more.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
@@Semiogogue «Take a qama in your hand, and hold it with the ‘flat grip’ you think was the primary grip»-first of all, I must note that I do not consider and do not insist that this is the primary grip!)
«Just be careful not to cut yourself when your hand slips forward over the blade.»- please don’t worry, the only qama I have is a souvenir with a blunt blade for hanging on the wall.)
Nevertheless, its hilt allows me to experience its peculiarities and experiment with different grips. Several years ago I tried different grips including the one you suggested and I agree with your words. But! Neither I, nor the gentleman with the dead goat, claimed that this «flat» grip was the perfect grip for piercing armor.
But what did I notice during my unscientific experiments with grips. In both cases, it was not difficult for me to point the blade in a straight line, but, indeed, in the case of the "flat" grip, I decided that it would be preferable to shift the grip a little back so that the pommel rested against the base of the palm and the hand would not slip onto the blade upon impact.
And the same with the grip recommended by you, thus, as you demonstrate at 14:39. The fact is that the handle of my kindjal had a rather large pommel, and trying to place my thumb on the expanding part, I lost the pommel support at the base of the palm.
I also thrust the kindjal in the sheath into the wall and the floor and did not very strong pushes, and it seemed to me that with any grip the hand would not slip onto the blade, because the index finger wrapping around the narrow part of the hilt would stick into the expanding part. If you grasp the wide part with your thumb and forefinger (like a Scottish dirk), then the middle finger will prevent slipping. I was comfortable with both grip options, but I got the impression that if I had to use such a weapon for piercing-cutting-chopping blows, then I would prefer a saber grip in the manner suggested by you, or a grip where the thumb and forefinger are wrapped around the extension,in a manner of «handshake» grip. If we focus on the use of piercing and cutting blows without wide swings, then the "flat" grip seemed to me quite convenient. But all of the above applies to the situation with the enemy not wearing armor.
When you suggest "Take a qama in your hand" what kind of kama do you mean? After all, they differ in size, width and length of the blade, size and shape of the hilts. Like your three examples in the video: at 12:47 - the handle of this Georgian kindjal seemed to me the most comfortable, at 13:11 - I got the impression that the place where the thumb rests is too square, and at 13:36 - the hilt seems quite long and you may need to move the grip back to support the pommel more securely. Well, maybe I'm wrong, because I have to judge by the video.
"Again. It's a short sword." - kindjal is kindjal) Pay attention to how it is positioned on the belt, this position means that it can be grabbed with both forward and reverse grip. The sword is not held with a reverse grip.
In many languages the word "dagger" is different forms of the words qama (къамэ,kama,хъяма,kamë) and kindjal (hançer,xanjar,xəncər,kanjar-қанжар,xençer,chinjaal).
And you yourself used the term "dagger" in your video.(But I understand what you mean by using the word "sword", because large and medium qamas are really comparable in size to gladius and xyphos which are swords). You often mention chain mail, and I would like to remind you of what you also mentioned in your video: kindjal was part of a group of weapons. And in close combat, the warrior had the opportunity to use, first of all, long-bladed weapons: a saber, shashka, palash-broadsword or pike. And to fight the enemy dressed in chain mail, they also had a choice of weapons, for example, the so-called Circassian saber with a bayonet tip:
avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-zen_doc/1538903/pub_5de935c77cccba00b1c30da2_5de9429e5ba2b500adf0be03/scale_1200
Also, do not forget that qama is not ideal for a warrior on a horse. You are right when you say that chain mail was used in the Caucasus until the 20th century. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Circassian professional warriors of noble origin wore chain armor. But was its use so widespread in the 19th century? During the Caucasian wars, the warriors of the Caucasus encountered Russian troops who did not wear chain mail. So was it so important to concentrate on the mail-piercing techniques?
During this period, shashka becomes popular, also adopted by the Russians, and this is far from an ideal weapon for breaking through chain mail. Yes, we should not forget that in mountainous areas in winter, people wore thick multi-layered clothing, and the penetrating properties of weapons in this situation are important. But here the tricks shown by the gentlemen with the goat will be quite enough.) Kindjal was widespread far beyond the Caucasus, in regions where chain mail has not been seen for a long time. This suggests that it was a versatile weapon. This weapon was widely used in the Russian army, by the Cossacks, as well as by units drawn up in the Caucasus after its conquest, and again, hardly these soldiers were afraid of a collision with an enemy in chain mail.
Please, take a look at the famous photograph of Imam Shamil taken after his surrender. According to the story of the author of the photograph, Count Nostitz, Shamil behaved tensely because he noticed Russian dragoons watching him and was expecting an attack, he was ready to fight. It is hardly possible to say about him that he did not know how to use kindjal, nevertheless pay attention to his grip:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/%D0%98%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BC_%D0%A8%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C.jpg
You are undoubtedly correct about the grip you demonstrated, but why then the rest of the hilt parts? For example, the expansion at the blade, the front and back head of the rivet? These are not just decorations, it prevents slipping and twisting in the hand. If the blade was intended primarily for penetration, then why does it has good cutting and slashing properties? What I wanted to say is that the hilt of a kindjal implies different grips, and this is inherent in its design.
When I came across your video on youtube, I was pleasantly surprised by the logic of your arguments and the level of historical and ethnographic research, and by the fact that you even drew attention to the role of Caucasian and Persian dances in the training of warriors. And I did not set out to argue with you, but simply wanted to supplement some points with the information I read. And I was very happy when you brushed aside the tales of "people with small hands", because this theory sometimes annoys me very much.)
And thanks for taking the time to answer, despite the fact that the video was posted almost 4 years ago.
Excellent! Fascinating! Thank you for your insight into this colorful, almost exotic matter!
A thought: Might these dances not only be an echo of the combat culture, but have played an active role in the training of the warriors? I would sure hate to have to go up against a man this nimble on his feet and armed with weapons of skill and precision, yessir.
I think the answer to your question is very much a yes. Dance in general is a great way to develop skills that can be carried over to considerable extent into fighting, but you can also use it to impress the ladies without having to hurt anyone. What's not to like? And I think that it was this way in the west once upon a time as well. We've lost quite a bit. Quite a bit...
Wow that was an eye opener! I'll look at ancient dance completely differently now! I love RUclips and it's contributors.
Ends with a nod to Danny Kaye's "The Court Jester."
Very cool video. Ill add a little info, in georgian khanjali or satevari was mainly used like a side arm in every situation, it was always carried as a selfdefense weapon and not like a dagger but more like a shortsword or a langmesser of germans. This is clear because when entering someones house the guest would leave his primary weapon be it a saber, sword, musket, pistol or any other such thing but wouldnt leave his satevari (kindjal). Also the Satevari often had a thing called Shvili ( child in georgian) a small second dagger in the same scabbard as the main short sword. This was probably used for more normal daily needs such as cutting food. There was an instance when Georgian noble Dadeshqeliani was arrested by the russians, he was stripped of all his weapons except his Satevari which he used to escape the arrest. Historical sources suggest that martial arts were practised by common people in Georgia from early age and these martial arts included sword fighting and fighting with Satevari (kindjal). One such is the svan sword fighting style. Today some practise georgian equivalent of HEMA called khridoli. You can look up that for more details. Again thanks for the educational video and excuse my poor english.
Thanks for the comment with all the information.And your English is of course excellent. Cheers!
@@Semiogogue Cheers ans thank you for taking your time to talk about caucasus and such underrated topics in general. Also I didnt realise this video was 3 years old it's awesome that you replied. Subbed and shared !
Hello. Very much enjoyed your thoughts and history on the kindjal. I believe you are right on concerning the simple and effective use of this weapon. I also believe that as used when fencing an opponent, hooking the forefinger over the forward rivet head and the tip of the thumb against the opposite side of the rivet, gives a solid handling of this weapon.
Your thoughts also on the relation of a culture’s traditional dance movements to their martial arts, is also correct. Thank you again for your studies.
Kizlyar kinjals are nice.
Except for those long grips. Of course these are accurate reproductions, but they're made for the hammer grip.
Another good source on this weapon is RazmafzarTV here on YT. Dr. Khorasani is the foremost expert on such weapons in Persia/Iran (the place they seem to originate from).
Well done sir, I've enjoyed this very much.
Cheers!
Thank you from Ossetia. It's a little strange that are foreigners are interested in us. In many ways you are right. Much was lost bacause of the results of the Caucasian war, but we saved a lot, trying to revive. About dancing you should watch old recordings. In the modern version of our dances , there are many elements of dancing. Especially Georgian dances, there is not much of the Caucasus there, they calle themselves ballet. But they are good artist's. As for who was the ancestorancestor of clothing, weapons, it's is impossible to determinedetermine. I think we influenced each other. But the fact that Circassians were trendsetters in Kavkaz is true. Very ironically, the empire broke us, but all the nobility and Russians tzars began to wear our clothes, weapons, riding style, dressed up their southern cossacks. Although Russia has not been at war with anyone for so long.
Ah i thought you said something gopd about georgia tgen i realised georgian dances is not kaukasian 😂
Excelente análisis, concuerdo plenamente contigo.
18:41 this dance is also Georgian. this is our traditional dance
Ну да всё у нас всё грузинское 😅 только там танцуют чеченцы и солирует Махмуд Эсамбаев.
Fact ....ingush and Chechens never never use it to stabbing when they had a fight 1 on 1 it was a rule
Haven’t mentioned Georgia enough. Could have done better research. Still enjoyed it very much. Thanks🙏
Very, very nice collection, by the way.
Cheers!
I now I might not reach anyone, I just wanted to say that I'm pleasantly surprised the people here know of middle eastern and weastern Asian cultures as descended from the Caucasus mountains as well. Quick question if anyone sees this. Would Iberian Moor descent Arabs be any amount descended from the Caucasus too?
While there's considerable cultural overlap in the Caucasus, the various ethnic groups are all over the place. Lots and lots of different peoples (ethnically or genetically speaking) all in a relatively small area. So 'descended from the Caucasus' could mean Persian, Turkic/Mongol, 'Circassian', Avar, Georgian, Lakh, Jew, Armenian, Russian, etc. If you're looking for people of Caucasian descent (bearing in mind what I said about how that's genetically not at all a uniform thing) you'll find most of them today in Asia Minor (today's Turkey), the Levant (today's Syria, Jordan, Israel, etc.), and Egypt. Going back to the period when the Muslims controlled the Iberian Peninsula you might have had some number of Mamluk slaves originally from the Caucasus, but you would have had Arabs, North African Berbers, European converts as well as native populations, Jews, etc. So even if we leave aside the idea that 'Iberian Moors' were ever mostly of 'Arab' descent (which I would question), I would doubt that you'd find much genetic material represented that's directly from the Caucasus.
Very interesting. You make an exceedingly logical argument. I hope someone deep into researching these subjects will follow your line of reasoning to see what may be unearthed. And thank you for the detailed close up shots, the craftsmanship of those weapons was beautiful. The scabbard and hilt decoration was exquisite.
Thanks! The real challenge is getting even a basic skill with some of the dance movements. They're not easy!
Excellent video, fine Sir. Instant subscribe.
Thank you. It's just a 'one off' relative to the other channel content. So the rest of it might not be your style. But you've inspired me to get doing another video on Circassian saddles onto my 'to do' list. Cheers!
@@Semiogogue I am watching one of your vids and I have to say that while I find your perspective interesting, I really thought that your channel was about the Caucasus / HEMA.
I don't tend to consume youtube for political matters but perhaps you are worth making an exception, as you and I are aligned on at least some things ;-) For example, that you criticise multiculturalism while having a Chechen tcherkesska as a decoration in the background might seem like a contradiction at first, but IMO it conveys that you have great respects and admiration for some foreign cultures, which is not mutually exclusive with not wanting them as neighbours. This is something that the liberal, mainstream media pretends not to understand.
But back to the Caucasus, it is an absolutely fascinating region and it has indeed produced the best warriors the world has seen.
Being a sport fencer I absolutely buy your theory on the pistol grip.
By the way, the dance you are referring to is unique, the Lezginka. It is indeed a dance with many martial elements and that is clear. However, perhaps one thing that your vid does not mention is that it is an "eagle trying to seduce a swan" dance. The man imitates an eagle, and the woman imitates a swan. So that drifts away from a martial concept.
I really wish that more of us Westerners would recognise the Caucasians for the awesome warriors they are. Your knowledge of the Caucasus is impressive, fine Sir.
Cheers! There will eventually be a video on saddles, certainly. And perhaps more if I get off of my ass :)
Thank you! I got a modern reproduction of one because I wanted a gladius and this was cheaper and had a similar (generally) blade. But it is an interesting weapon in its own right! Glad to hear / learn more about it! Would love to get a better made one or even a functional solid antique example. The ones you had there were simply stunning...
Quite interesting. Good video
Thanks! Hopefully I can get around to doing more clips like this.
This is G.E.O.R.G.I.A.N weapon and not Russian russia is not Georgia. Georgia is independent country. Russia is an occupier. 20% of Georgia is ocupied by Russia. GEORGIA IS INDEPENDENT COUNTRY 🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪🇬🇪
Wrong term for the traditional Georgian dagger "Satevari". The term kindjaal is some muscovite naming
Надо возродить воинские традиции народов Кавказа...
Qama (Къамэ) is the Adyghe (Circassian) name not Turkic
I think Abdul Abulbul Amir used a skibouk on ol' Ivan Skavinsky Skavar.
what is your obsession with hammer grips being oafish?
Perhaps traditional qama is not made big and has short hilt to provide easy maneuver by fingers and thumb. Could it be that this weapon is used for emergency or backup such flicking or throwing?
For bit demonstration of dagger throwing click on
ruclips.net/video/qrxJYzuKoyY/видео.html
CIRCASSIANS CALLED THE SWORD. [ KHA'MA ]
Thank you. Both from an Anthropological and and military view. I love watching the Leshinka. Also interesting is to see is the Thikr circles amoung Chechens. I would love to visit that region some day. Hopefully peace prevails and it is safe.
Cheers! And, yeah. I've heard old recordings of zhikr ceremonies. An odd driving single beat. Rather like you hear with North American shamans. ONE ONE ONE ONE. I wouldn't expect peace any time soon, sadly.
In just two very fascinating days from looking more into the Russian Dragoon saber, that I was considering, buying from a few other possible choices, to the discovery of the Shashka sword and on into the history of the Cossacks and their extensive martial history and watching countless videos til my eyes bled, I have to agree, 100% with your assertions.
The manual that HEMA seeks for the guard less Shashka sword is there with the Cossacks and the Hoopak, which I think is what they call their dance.
There is much more practicality even in the Sword Dance than I think most people give credit for. It's an exercise that leads into other forms of exercise and it has philosophies quite similar to Russian Systema martial arts.
I'm definitely buying a Shaska or at least the Dragoon saber! lol!
Don't be surprised if I turn into a Cossack in the next couple of years, either. They are fascinating people!
Irish dancing.....riververdance and lord of the dance.
Which ties to American 'Buck Dancing'. Which ties to tap dancing. And Buck Dancing is also associated with rodeos, and can involves a heeled boot. Compare to Flamenco, with a horseman's boot, and the fact that bull fighters and dancers share certain characteristics and sometimes even come from the same families...
maybe...some Irish arts look very arabic to me and others. The saying is that keeping shoulders straight is a sign of opposition to the British. Am not sure, my ex was Irish but not me.3
i would love to be a fly on the wall. You and Tim have so much knowledge !
my replies do not seen to post for some reason3333
i would love a vid about Irish people. I saw the good the bad and the very ugly but it is your preference of course
Lack of the real proves plus everlasting competition amongst the Caucasian nations on who is the most anciet and badass makes it almost impossible to find out where Qama really comes from. But some ethnic representatives being more ambitios and active claim qama being solely their invention just like the "cherkesska" (which in fact has different names in different languages of the region) and the rest of the traditional look of people residing at Caucasus. The truth is that every ethnic group like chechens, dagestans, karachays, adyghes, ingushs or balkars or etc of Caucasus had their own style of qama dagger, or the long sword nowdays called "shashka". Anyone claiming they were the ones to invent those is wrong unintentionally or knowingly
You right. I'm from Kavkaz.
Do you know a good smithy where they still make them in the traditional way with the right handle length and everything? Those I might have found don't ship to Europe only in Russia...
I think you'd do just fine working with a local bladesmith. The correct handle length depends on the dimensions of your hand. It's a full tang with the same profile as the grip. And the simple grips are just two pieces of wood, horn or ivory fixed in place with two or three rivets. Work with someone local, and provide them drawings, etc.
Kindjal actually means " Hinc Al " i.e take revenge . Kama comes from Kam and it is the name of God ; Kama means To the God.
Both Turkic in origin.
Circassians call it Khame which means " smell of grave ".
Thanks for commenting. Any references for this in English or Turkish? Not that I'm contesting your assertion, I'd just like to be able to get the references because I'm working on translating a Circassian text so it would be useful.
I am a Circassian . ;) I can have a go .
It's in Ottoman. Yani, Osmanlıdır. Written by a Bzhedukh: Mustafa Mahir Effendi. You've probably read the modern Turkish translation by Mahmut Fidan. I'm sure it's online. I'm translating the same text into English, but I'm working from the Ottoman original (the Fidan translation has lots of mistakes). It's a slow process, but I'm past the halfway point. Most of the trouble is the old words. Luckily the Arabic text was produced on a printing press; it would be impossible for me to decipher otherwise :) It was a great experience to learn that the Circassian who leapt his horse from the walls of the fortress in Cairo during the massacre of the Mamluks (and lived) was named "Heshjukur". I'll be done translating it within another year - maybe 2.
thank you from Chechnya
You are very welcome!
Working with the Kinjal, seems that a lot of this is about riding a horse, left hand on the saddle/Kinjal, yes? Also, the thrust dagger grip can be two-hand during part of the strike? Curved moving sideways, into the heart, rotating the blade?
Good luck getting two hands onto anything but the largest of kindjal handles. As for its possible use on horseback, one can't rule it out, but it doesn't provide much reach. And bear in mind that mounted men were generally wealthier than those who went only on foot, and hence were more likely to carry a suite of weapons including the shashka. As for keeping one hand on the saddle remember that these folks were used to firing bows and long guns from the saddle while at a full gallop, which requires two hands. That said, many of the djigit maneuvers involved holding onto the high pommel and cantle of the saddle.
ruclips.net/video/mC7iFqcU4rY/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/aSOeEeYh3QA/видео.html
Hey i have just bought a kindjal few weeks ago in esteren turkey close to siryan irak border. Could i send you some photos? I had no idea at that time that it is a kindjal:)
If you have a link to a photo I'll be happy to take a look.
@@Semiogogue drive.google.com/open?id=0ByXplmOpaD9nQ2F2bUtrWEFXODBhVmRoRE9hSnVuOGZQQUFB
drive.google.com/open?id=0ByXplmOpaD9nTmhLcG5wVHBrcGxlZlpiN3JyZ2lSaDNJbmE4
He’s like geralt...
Are these the blades carried by the Hussars or the Cossacks?
I Fucking LOVE the equestrian (specifically equitation-like) posture and bearing of those dudes dancing! -I have a -highly-polished-black-boot -fetish- that is, I really, really, really love tall black boots on men, or really anyone. Also you got me onto a roll again with the Wikipedia addiction, (Thanks!) I spent past -two hours- whole entire evening reading about the Hussars and the Cossacks and did some con.-ed. (Aka continuing education) on those fascinating groups. I think that I was a Cossack soldier or a Hussar in a past life. Who knows? Maybe you were too.
Ghetto Medic - I'll probably do a clip on Circassian saddles here after a bit. I have two of them, and I've been lucky enough to see (and even photograph) a number of others, some of them very fine. It's a very different saddle form. It uses a cushion. Stirrups are slung high for a bent-knee riding position. They don't post. Stirrups have platforms instead of bars so that people wearing them place the ball of the foot in the stirrup. Three girth straps for real stability. And a high pommel and cantle for 'trick riding'.
Oh snap!! I adore military saddles, they're my favorites, next to, of course, my fox hunting saddle, and my dressage one.;-) I've had the privilege of riding in a Civil War era McClellan saddle & may buy an Army surplus one off of my buddy. Also, I caught that you said- "After a bit?" What a cool pun. Namaste
I wish you were closer to me. I want to pull out all the tack, make the necessary repairs, and get one of my saddles onto a horse to check it all out. I have everything, I think... Maybe I know someone down this way. I'll have to give it some thought...
sweet
I have to say the craft work on these blades are exquisite. That alone must of taken a few man hours toiling away to get blade just right. What's the weight like in the hand--more specifically are your blades balanced well? I did some linear katana work in Bujinkan (Taijutsu) for a few years which I found enjoyable. One last question have you looked at or used kettlebells,Indian clubs as a physical training method. Thanks based Elric.👍🏻
You may like this MA from Russia called Systema:
ruclips.net/video/SWAQG2k4FZs/видео.html
Out of the three kindjals in my video two are well balanced (the longest and the shortest) while the medium length one (relatively speaking) has a point of balance well forward of the hilt. But the other two are quite nimble and responsive, and even the less well-balanced one is perfectly functional. And yes. I use both metal and wooden Indian clubs, as well as 4 lb medicine balls that I can palm and use in pairs in wrist strength exercises. They help to break things up so I'm not always exercising my hands flexed closed...
Semiogogue very cool, the blades are super nice great pieces of craft man ship. I'm going to get a leather medicine ball soon for my body weight training. Do you know you can build up wrist strength by simply hanging of a pull bar (I think it's called a dead hang). Thanks Professor. 👍🏻
Yep! I 'hang' with a number of grips. We're on the same page :) Definitely give pairs of medicine balls a try. I use 4 lb, but I went very slowly starting with them. You can injure yourself VERY easily if you're not careful. Basically palm the two of them, one in each hand, then slowly hold them out in different positions, while rotating the whole hand inwards and outwards. The point is to work the wrist joint and all the small muscles that create strength there, in complete movements. I think you'll find it strengthens your wrists in ways that other exercises can't. When I say rotate the hands, I mean something similar to this, but with a palmed 4 lb weight in each hand:
ruclips.net/video/np0IBfeU0jM/видео.html
Of course this is just dance, but my point is to do it under weight. And again, go slowly. And don't do anything that creates the least pain. You have to take your time working up into it. Weeks. Until you've gotten into it and developed the tendon anchoring in the bone you can pop and tear small muscle groups quite easily. I want to emphasize this. You were warned! But once you get used to it you can then move to combining the hand and arm movements like this:
ruclips.net/video/8W6BZl8CcfA/видео.html
Again, I'm talking about doing it with weight. Imagine she's holding one of those medicine balls in each hand. It smooths the bearing surfaces of the joints, and tightens everything up. Even working the tiny muscles that come together to create strength in odd ways. And of course using the full arms with weight at full extension it will work things all the way down to your 'core'. Enjoy!
Actually, the dress is not Persian or that non-sense the dress is a Circassian dress and no other countries dress that's the truth + where did you get that information from its almost all wrong
I said the cherkesska *derived* from Qajar period Persian dress. And it's not nonsense. Of course there are differences; the Qajar version had no cartridge pockets across the breast (an innovation that came from the period of Ottoman occupation/trading in the 17th and 18th centuries). As for your claim that it is the dress of no other country, what about Lakh people? What about Avars? What about Terek and Kuban Cossacks? What about Lezgins? What about Mingrelians? What about Azeris who wore similar dress. Laz? Even Jews in the Caucasus were known to wear similar dress.
@AP chemistry course what kind of nonsense is that? Russians named the dress "Chrkesska" because the first people they encountered wearing them were Circassians since Circassia stretched the furthest north from the Caucasus mountains.. If they'd discovered Chechens first they would've probably named it "Chechenska". Also, the earliest depiction of Chokha in the Caucasus is on a painting of a Georgian noble. And the name "Talaveri" is also first mentioned in Georgian writing. Having said that we still don't know who was the first to use and incorporate chocka as a national dress but anyone who makes claims with any certainty is talking nonsense that's for sure.
@@username7735 why don't you read what I said one more time before you say that i was talking none sence because I said that the dress isn't Persian and don't try to convince me that it's Persian because it's not and it's a circassian cloth wether anyone liked it or not a fact is a fact and cannot be changed.
@@APchemistrycourse It's not Circassian, doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, primary sources disagree with you. And before you go any further. no, I'm not interested in a nationalism infused pseudo caucasian history lesson tyvm.
@@username7735 it's not important if you agree or not because it is circassian.
A lot of eastern european swords come from steppe asiatic and middle eastern swords/daggers. A lot of people also aren’t aware that the europeans that exist today long long ago come from the steppes of asia as well.
Caucasian weapons come from turkic steppe weapons, as well as middle eastern scimitars, i suggest try giving kiril rivkin’s “a study of the eastern sword” a read :). Wonderful video nonetheless!
No not all Europeans come from Asia and only sabres originate from east Asia
@@ChromeMan04 no, sabres originate from the nomadic tribes of asia. as a matter of fact the word "saber" is traced back to the turkic origin.
이치고 that’s what I said like, sabres originate from east Asia around Mongolia
@@ChromeMan04 turkic and nomadic people dont originate from east asia. the steppes are in central asia and the panonnian steppe, and mongolians come from siberia, as well as many northeast asians like myself. our ancestry goes back to siberia which is near the steppe, so you're wrong on the first one, second one you're closer :)
이치고 Mongolia is in east Asia not the steppes and Central Asia is not the original homeland of the Turks but Aryans. What country u from?
you need front lighting
I wish that was all I needed :)
A comment or two, if you don't mind. The correct pronunciation of the weapon has a stress on the last syllable, not the first. It is "keen-DJAL". I just noticed it was a recurring error, and you'd want to know about it. Second, I feel you're too quick to dismiss the "baton twirling" of the shashka, (known in Russia as "Flankerovka") In addition to developing your ability and movement, it is a legitimate, historical martial "art" form. When you see people standing still and twirling the blades, it just means they haven't mastered the footwork yet. The twirling of the blades DOES have a combative application, and its equivalent is not found in western fencing manuals. Russia and the Caucasus are at the juncture of Europe, the Middle East, Central Asia. There will be a more syncretic martial philosophy.
Syncretic? Definitely. The Caucasus is, as you pointed out, a major cultural crossroads. No disagreement there. And thanks for the observation about pronouncing 'kindjal'. I first came across these weapons in Turkey so I learned about them as 'kama' and only started saying 'kindjal' when I realized even fewer people had heard of kamas than had heard of kindjals.
I don't doubt the twirling of the blades can have application in combat. The issue I have is that the twirling that I've seen has completely devolved into a decorative flourish. All one has to do to see whether any of it will prove useful is to see whether the movement actually brings the edge to bear on anything, or even permits one to 'index' whether the edge is aligned for a cut - assuming that there are cases where you might wish to present the flat, for example. From what I've seen the people standing around twirling a shaska or two don't even bother to notice how the edge is presented at all. That said, I'll try to keep an open mind.
Thanks for watching, and for commenting!
I'm not putting myself forward as any kind of an expert, but I have heard Russians and Georgians discussing the shashka with the flourishes, etc, and I'll do my best to pass on their rationale. I can draw out four reasons for the "flourishes". Firstly, in a simpler era, the show you could demonstrate to your opponent, the "pre-game" so to speak, had psychological and intimidation value. If you could intimidate and bewilder your foe with fancy sword tricks, there was a chance he would not want to fight you. Second, the shahska should be kept in continuous motion, and the flourishes were actually born from continuing the movement of a slash. re-directing the blade without slowing it down. Third, because the shashka strikes from a continuous movement, the flourishes were skillfully inserted to break up the regular patterns, making movements less predictable. Fourth and last, the twirling movements might have been used while moving into the opponents space, as both a defensive measure and a strategy to put the opponent into reactionary mode, thus taking the initiative. I've lived in Russia for 15 years, this info comes from talking to different people and watching a lot of Russian youtube, so your mileage may vary. Intriguing justifications, whether they're true or not. Cheers!
The great takeaway from your video is the observation on the grip of the kindjal, and how it is meant to be held, I agree entirely.
Are you in the Caucasus area? I'm working on a translation dealing with tribes of the Caucasus and their symbols (tamga) from back in the 19th century. Always looking for anyone who has 'boots on the ground' in the region. When I'm done with my draft I'll need to get feedback from people in the area in order to locate old villages mentioned, and to learn more about historical figures mentioned...
I bounce back and forth between Moscow, Sochi and Abkhazia. I speak Russian, but know lots of people who speak Georgian and Armenian. The other Caucasian languages are an order of magnitude more obscure. If you had a specific fragment or text, I might be able to run it by someone here. Send me a PM.
I am eastern European. And I never understood why Caucasians are asociated with my race. You call whites Caucasian in your land, but it's other breed of beings.
We are pagans they are Muslims.
Edit: I apologise for my hostility, good and interesting.material as usual.
But Caucasians have little to nothong to do with white people.
Calling Europeans 'Caucasians' comes from the idea that the Caucasus was the Indo-European 'homeland'. As best I can tell this is a result of theories put forth by the German anthropologist Johann Blumenbach in 1795.
While this idea is no longer supported, it can't be disputed that the northern Black Sea littoral is a region filled with early Indo-European sites. And even if it was occupied by groups that were not IE, in terms of material culture it would be hard to find evidence that the way of life there in ancient times was at all different from regions that are proposed as the IE 'homeland' today.
The next point to raise is that not all of the Caucasian peoples are or were Muslim. The Muslim focus is in the Eastern Caucasus. This is where Imam Shamil (an Avar from Daghestan) came from. And the E. Caucasus had heavy Persian influence. But in the NW Caucasus, the Circassian region, you will find that there were (and are) Christians as well as Muslims, and that Muslim culture was like a superficial overlay on the traditional culture of the region.
And I'm sure that you will find that many Georgians would contest your assertion about the Caucasus being Muslims. The Georgian Church, like the Armenian Church, is very, very old. Not to mention that whatever the religion, most of the material culture of the region was like a shared zone, regardless of religion. Jews and Armenians, Christians and Muslims in the Caucasus all wore Cherkesskas, and all carried Kindjals. As for true IE peoples, you should have a look at the Ossetians, also residents of the Caucasus.
The point I am making is that you shouldn't be so quick to assumes 'Caucasians' are a different group than whites - unless you also think that Basques, for example, are not 'white'.
Semiogogue that's a very extensive reply. Thank you.
I am not a scholar, just a curious cat ^^. Those are only my observations and opinion. I have Caucasian friends and I do not identify with them in racial terms neither do they. Differences are obvious, both cultural and racial.
I am baltic and unfortunately one of the last generations. Caucasians have similar racial qualities as Persians as you mentioned.
It spiked a lot of interest in early history inside of me. How ever I lack of time at the moment to investigate more.
Your vid. about mercurian mark have changed my life and I am acumulating paper at the moment. :p
Greetings.
Semiogogue I live in Spain and my basque friends identify tem self more with my people then with Spaniards.
I am not fully aware of the story, but one elder basque that was living with a Lithuanian woman told me that once.
Cheers! And yes, many of those in the Caucasus would look very different from how you might, coming from the Baltic :) But you also have Sami people and Finns up that way, or nearby... But you have to realize that there are blondes and blue eyes and all that in the Caucasus too. Not just from the Russian invasions. Also from much older peoples there. And there are literally several hundred (if not a few thousand) distinct languages and dialects all tightly pushed together in one area. It changes literally from valley to valley in the mountains...
Georgians are Caucasians too but they are christians.
But i went to Antifa "fight school" and my limp-wristed martial style would make quick work of these kindjal weilding corporate overlords!
Indeed :| Hah!
Seriously though, thanks for the video. Interesting random studies of the week.
khanjali and not kinjal
I need to say tat your opinion about ხანჯალი is not true cause georgians were using it until russia and evan kiev of russia (very first russian country name ) so it is just lie !
Another satisfied customer!!!
The term Kama is a circassian word, not Turkic
Thjs swords are georgian and only georgian get your facts straight
ROFL
Mate I couldn't find you on social media, do you have FB or Instagram? I