This is one of the episodes that makes me think back to Wesley in Buffy season 3 and marvel at how far he'd come in some ways but also how he was much the same. As in, he was willing to sacrifice Willow for what he thought was the greater good even back then.
Sacrifice is probably a staple of Watcher training. Some are probably better at it than others but it’s probably a common mentality. Interestingly, Faith got away from him because he wasn’t willing to sacrifice a teammate. I wonder if he got feedback from the Council over that or if that weighed on him.
WB had a directive for Season 5 to be more “stand-alone” or “self-contained” episodes after the mess of Season 4. They weren’t canceled till fairly close to the end of the season.
This season does feel more bloody and gory than a lot of the rest of the Buffyverse to me at least. Wesley gunning down his dad and then throwing up is probably one of the more realistic reactions to the kind of horror and trauma these characters regularly encounter tbh. Don't see that often in media. Then the conga line of the other characters telling him how their parental relationships were fucked is hilarious. A real demonstration of how these shows can swing between horror/genuine drama and then humor. I actually took the Fred/Wesley conversation at the end as her being open to something but he shuts her down unthinkingly/unknowingly because he's so messed up at that moment. Just my read though.
in some way the reaction of wes after the shot reminded me of the body... it wasnt only emotions but the reaction of his whole system on shooting his father...
I could be misremembering but I think the show was moved one hour later in the last season. Because of the later hour they were able to show more violence. However that is just my very fuzzy memory of that time.
Lineage was a superb episode. Now we can see why Wesley really is the way he is. He was nurtured in such a way that shaped his early character, and in his Father here we see an almost carbon cutout of the irritating stuck up Quentin Travers from The Council. A banger of a start here with Wesley showing how his has developed his warrior skills, and a great sideways shooting scene when he does his PC Nicholas Angel bit from Hot Fuzz in the pub, copied of course from Bad Boys, but great nevertheless. Wesley unfortunately get chided by both Angel and Fred, it seems both are in the wrong here blaming him, and then his Father having to witness Fred chiding him. We see the bullying tone of his father here, saying how embarrassed they were with Wesley as Watcher. Great retort from Wesley when he replies I thought getting blown up was their most embarrassing thing to happen. Hilariously funny when Lorne says to Wesley's Father you could be the love child of Winston Churchill and Richard Harris. Very funny too when Spike says people having sex with robots is more common than you think referring to The Buffybot of course, and then even more hilarity when Spike says to Wesley's father how have you been after the events in Vienna in 1963, brilliant comedy! Then we have the awkward scene with Wesley witnessing Fred and the 'sus' Knox flirting. The father usurps Wesley in the bomb scene. Super scenes on the roof in the end, when Wesley confronts his Father as he was trying to take Angels will. As the Father belittles Wesley again we see how Wesley has grown in confidence and will not listen to it anymore. When his Father grabs Fred, Wesley does not hesitate to open fire in one of the best scenes in The Buffyverse, his love for Fred is total even prepared to kill his own Father to protect her. Wesley of course did not realise his Father was a Cyborg, and feels immediate remorse over what he has done and gets physically sick, but he sees his Father is a Cyborg in a twist at the end. Again at the end hilarious comedy with Spike saying I killed my mum, well she tried to shag me. A painful scene for Wesley at the end with Knox going off with Fred. So poignant with Wesley ringing his real Father at then end just to see his was OK. This was one of the very best character centric episodes from the whole Buffyverse, this is why he became such a fan favourite I think he definitely had the best character arc of all Buffyverse characters. This was an Ultra Banger!
"did this show get more gruesome" This is where I sort-of quote Marsters doing press conferences with the rest of the cast: 'things are different (because of the one-hour difference) and are a lot more brutal! Second episode, a man came back in buckets, I can't let my niece watch this!'
Y'know, much as Spike bringing up what happened with his mother is played up for comedy, there is something so heartwarming about how he's wanting to bring it up in an attempt to try and make Wesley feel better about what he went through. And this was something that, up until now, Spike hadn't shared with ANYONE else.
I love this episode but I'm not sure Roy Dotrice ever gets the props he deserves for this episode. As Lexi says, Wesley's dad has been built up as a character from s1 of Angel and Dotrice absolutely nails it. He's not physically dominating or anything but there's still something crushingly patriarchal about him. (I also wonder if it helps explain Wes's relationship to Giles, as a psuedo-father figure but one that he can challenge.
Considering how many childhood stories Wesley's not father knew as well as his father's personality & mannerisms, I wonder how close the cyborgs' programmer was to the Watchers Council. ❤🧡💛💚💙💜
The only character in the Buffyverse to go through more growth and change than Wesley is Willow. Funny how the two actors ended up falling in love and got married!
Cordelia arguably had just as much growth and change from a shallow, stereotypical rich mean girl to ascended being, with plenty of growth and change along the way.
You have the most hilarious intro bits of any reactor ive ever watched! Never fails to crack me up and make me feel like we've been friends for decades!😂😂 mmm whatcha say
_THE O.C._ SPOILER I love that we finally see Wesley's dad, and yet we don't actually see Wesley's dad. I wonder how many people understood the opening song joke. It had me smiling. And I'm not even 100% positive it was intentional to _The O.C._ S2 ending.
23:05 Given that you just posted 5x17 to Patreon a few minutes ago, I guess you have a better sense of how the writers feel about "happy endings". I won't say anything more just in case there are YT people who haven't watched future episodes.
I've always said take Spike and Angel away from Buffy and they are comic geniuses. Around Buffy, they're too brooding and mopey to be this comedic. Not that that's Buffy fault, of course.
Your memory scares me. Im not as obsessed with Angel as with Buffy so I might have watched it only 3 times (do not ask how many times I watched Buffy lol) and I still didnt remember when his father was first mentioned. Not the first time you immediately recall something that happened in a one of episode. I believe you remember the first immediately too, but I might be remembering wrong. I kinda wish it was really wesleys father, that scene is SO strong and it is a bit undermined by the robot twist
This is the last moment I care about in the Buffy/Angel saga, the reaction to that scene. Oh there's still good stuff later on, but seeing the realisation on Fred's face that Wesley did it to save her life, without a moments hesitation. Yeah girl, you done fucked up choosing Gunn. That's your endgame right there. Going to write some more on this, since the episode where the pay off from this episode finally lands and Fred gives Wes a very subtle signal. Wes killed his dad without hesitation once it was Fred at risk. He didn't kill his dad out of hatred or to free himself, it was to protect the person he loved, regardless of their lack of feelings for him. On the rooftop we see Fred's reaction to what has just happened and she is in shock that Wes killed him, what we don't see is her go away to get her arm bandaged up and think about what just happened. Reach the decision that Wes isn't a bad guy so must have subconsciously know it wasn't really him. Only explanation. So she goes to tell Wes this, to help him get over what he thought he'd just done... but Wes closes this down, tells her that no he did choose her life over his dad's. I don't believe that "Wes..." which got cut off by Nox was her about to say she didn't feel the same way. Why have the interruption and Wes telling her to go at that point in the story? What suits better is her about to strike up a conversation about their relationship. Tell him that she likes him, but is worried about starting something that goes wrong with yet another friend she works with. But good old cockblock Nox has to show up and ruin everything. I truly think this was where her interest in Wes became evident to her and led to Smile Time payoff... just do wish they'd had more scenes together where this could have been hinted at in episodes between them.
![Noob To Max With DRAGON REWORK In Blox Fruits [FULL MOVIE]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LnBMOinoOvA/mqdefault.jpg)
The instantaneous shooting of the dad when he pointed the gun at Fred.
Wesley is the goat of the buffyverse.
"Sex with robots is more common than most people think."
Spike's callbacks to Intervention and Lies My Parents Told Me were hilarious.
Spike making fun of Wesley for being a foppish English dandy is the height of perfect irony.
I have nothing more to report! 😂
Wesley is really the most tragic characther in the buffyverse.
Absolutely. I think for me it is because he cannot fundamentally trust anyone.
Agreed, so tragic. He's my favorite character in the Buffyverse.
😭 It really would be nice if they let Wes be happy, for more than just a moment
find it really interesting that the old wesley appears right after his father appears. There is alot of damage there.
This is one of the episodes that makes me think back to Wesley in Buffy season 3 and marvel at how far he'd come in some ways but also how he was much the same. As in, he was willing to sacrifice Willow for what he thought was the greater good even back then.
Sacrifice is probably a staple of Watcher training. Some are probably better at it than others but it’s probably a common mentality.
Interestingly, Faith got away from him because he wasn’t willing to sacrifice a teammate. I wonder if he got feedback from the Council over that or if that weighed on him.
The devotion Wesley has for Fred is truly instinctual to the core of his being at this point. He wants her happy no matter what.
They didn't know it was the final season
Wesley’s new strategy seems to be,”I see your crazy and I raise you.”
“A father doesn’t have to be possessed by a demon to terrorize his children. He just has t-“
Wesley, Season 1, “I’ve Got You Under My Skin”
WB had a directive for Season 5 to be more “stand-alone” or “self-contained” episodes after the mess of Season 4. They weren’t canceled till fairly close to the end of the season.
They learned they were cancelled at the party for the 100th episode.
I think a lot would have been different in this early part of the season if they had known they weren't getting another season.
"Oh yes this is Los Angeles. We have to talk about our feelings. Then maybe we'll hug." That was savage.😂
This season does feel more bloody and gory than a lot of the rest of the Buffyverse to me at least.
Wesley gunning down his dad and then throwing up is probably one of the more realistic reactions to the kind of horror and trauma these characters regularly encounter tbh. Don't see that often in media. Then the conga line of the other characters telling him how their parental relationships were fucked is hilarious. A real demonstration of how these shows can swing between horror/genuine drama and then humor.
I actually took the Fred/Wesley conversation at the end as her being open to something but he shuts her down unthinkingly/unknowingly because he's so messed up at that moment. Just my read though.
in some way the reaction of wes after the shot reminded me of the body... it wasnt only emotions but the reaction of his whole system on shooting his father...
I could be misremembering but I think the show was moved one hour later in the last season. Because of the later hour they were able to show more violence. However that is just my very fuzzy memory of that time.
Lineage was a superb episode. Now we can see why Wesley really is the way he is. He was nurtured in such a way that shaped his early character, and in his Father here we see an almost carbon cutout of the irritating stuck up Quentin Travers from The Council. A banger of a start here with Wesley showing how his has developed his warrior skills, and a great sideways shooting scene when he does his PC Nicholas Angel bit from Hot Fuzz in the pub, copied of course from Bad Boys, but great nevertheless. Wesley unfortunately get chided by both Angel and Fred, it seems both are in the wrong here blaming him, and then his Father having to witness Fred chiding him. We see the bullying tone of his father here, saying how embarrassed they were with Wesley as Watcher. Great retort from Wesley when he replies I thought getting blown up was their most embarrassing thing to happen. Hilariously funny when Lorne says to Wesley's Father you could be the love child of Winston Churchill and Richard Harris. Very funny too when Spike says people having sex with robots is more common than you think referring to The Buffybot of course, and then even more hilarity when Spike says to Wesley's father how have you been after the events in Vienna in 1963, brilliant comedy! Then we have the awkward scene with Wesley witnessing Fred and the 'sus' Knox flirting. The father usurps Wesley in the bomb scene. Super scenes on the roof in the end, when Wesley confronts his Father as he was trying to take Angels will. As the Father belittles Wesley again we see how Wesley has grown in confidence and will not listen to it anymore. When his Father grabs Fred, Wesley does not hesitate to open fire in one of the best scenes in The Buffyverse, his love for Fred is total even prepared to kill his own Father to protect her. Wesley of course did not realise his Father was a Cyborg, and feels immediate remorse over what he has done and gets physically sick, but he sees his Father is a Cyborg in a twist at the end. Again at the end hilarious comedy with Spike saying I killed my mum, well she tried to shag me. A painful scene for Wesley at the end with Knox going off with Fred. So poignant with Wesley ringing his real Father at then end just to see his was OK. This was one of the very best character centric episodes from the whole Buffyverse, this is why he became such a fan favourite I think he definitely had the best character arc of all Buffyverse characters. This was an Ultra Banger!
19:22 A clearer declaration of unconditional love and unparalleled devotion, I do not believe I've witnessed.❤💔
The way Wesley didn't *hesitate* to kill his own father when Fred was in danger was everything!
"did this show get more gruesome"
This is where I sort-of quote Marsters doing press conferences with the rest of the cast: 'things are different (because of the one-hour difference) and are a lot more brutal! Second episode, a man came back in buckets, I can't let my niece watch this!'
5 seasons in and we still think there are big bads.
Well we did have a big bad in season 4
Y'know, much as Spike bringing up what happened with his mother is played up for comedy, there is something so heartwarming about how he's wanting to bring it up in an attempt to try and make Wesley feel better about what he went through. And this was something that, up until now, Spike hadn't shared with ANYONE else.
I love this episode but I'm not sure Roy Dotrice ever gets the props he deserves for this episode. As Lexi says, Wesley's dad has been built up as a character from s1 of Angel and Dotrice absolutely nails it. He's not physically dominating or anything but there's still something crushingly patriarchal about him. (I also wonder if it helps explain Wes's relationship to Giles, as a psuedo-father figure but one that he can challenge.
Some people pay big money going to shrinks for years to get the kind of catharsis Wesley achieved in a few seconds.
Angel season five. TV hardly gets better than this.
Oh no, it got more gruesome, this is why the boxset is 18.
Considering how many childhood stories Wesley's not father knew as well as his father's personality & mannerisms, I wonder how close the cyborgs' programmer was to the Watchers Council.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜
The only character in the Buffyverse to go through more growth and change than Wesley is Willow. Funny how the two actors ended up falling in love and got married!
*Faith Lehane has left the chat.
Cordelia arguably had just as much growth and change from a shallow, stereotypical rich mean girl to ascended being, with plenty of growth and change along the way.
You have the most hilarious intro bits of any reactor ive ever watched! Never fails to crack me up and make me feel like we've been friends for decades!😂😂 mmm whatcha say
_THE O.C._ SPOILER
I love that we finally see Wesley's dad, and yet we don't actually see Wesley's dad.
I wonder how many people understood the opening song joke. It had me smiling. And I'm not even 100% positive it was intentional to _The O.C._ S2 ending.
There was an SNL skit i believe based on that scene, you should track it down
23:05 Given that you just posted 5x17 to Patreon a few minutes ago, I guess you have a better sense of how the writers feel about "happy endings". I won't say anything more just in case there are YT people who haven't watched future episodes.
You said to think of them as killing machines instead of muscle. Sure enough, they're killing machines.
Poor inocent Lexi, wanting something Big to happen.
is it me or am i just realizing that that was a harry potter reference. percy, the brother in harry potter who constantly said "excuse me im head boy"
I've always said take Spike and Angel away from Buffy and they are comic geniuses.
Around Buffy, they're too brooding and mopey to be this comedic.
Not that that's Buffy fault, of course.
Your memory scares me. Im not as obsessed with Angel as with Buffy so I might have watched it only 3 times (do not ask how many times I watched Buffy lol) and I still didnt remember when his father was first mentioned. Not the first time you immediately recall something that happened in a one of episode. I believe you remember the first immediately too, but I might be remembering wrong. I kinda wish it was really wesleys father, that scene is SO strong and it is a bit undermined by the robot twist
*sees the intro* ...REALLY??? XD
This is the last moment I care about in the Buffy/Angel saga, the reaction to that scene. Oh there's still good stuff later on, but seeing the realisation on Fred's face that Wesley did it to save her life, without a moments hesitation. Yeah girl, you done fucked up choosing Gunn. That's your endgame right there.
Going to write some more on this, since the episode where the pay off from this episode finally lands and Fred gives Wes a very subtle signal.
Wes killed his dad without hesitation once it was Fred at risk. He didn't kill his dad out of hatred or to free himself, it was to protect the person he loved, regardless of their lack of feelings for him. On the rooftop we see Fred's reaction to what has just happened and she is in shock that Wes killed him, what we don't see is her go away to get her arm bandaged up and think about what just happened. Reach the decision that Wes isn't a bad guy so must have subconsciously know it wasn't really him. Only explanation. So she goes to tell Wes this, to help him get over what he thought he'd just done... but Wes closes this down, tells her that no he did choose her life over his dad's. I don't believe that "Wes..." which got cut off by Nox was her about to say she didn't feel the same way. Why have the interruption and Wes telling her to go at that point in the story? What suits better is her about to strike up a conversation about their relationship. Tell him that she likes him, but is worried about starting something that goes wrong with yet another friend she works with. But good old cockblock Nox has to show up and ruin everything. I truly think this was where her interest in Wes became evident to her and led to Smile Time payoff... just do wish they'd had more scenes together where this could have been hinted at in episodes between them.
dont touch fred
Can you imagine if Faith returned for at least a single-episode-appearance? Would’ve been amazing.