I am suprised Oblivion Ring wasn't among the additional examples. When you O-Ring an Ulamog and then the O-Ring leaves the battlefield, the returning Ulamog will also be seeing itself in exile.
I knew this one, mostly because I played Nethroi on Arena and saw a similar interaction with Golgari Raiders. I was blown away when I realized it counted itself and everything else Nethroi was bringing back, but thinking back on what I had learned from your videos, I realized it made sense.
Oof I got it wrong this time, but the explanation makes a lot of sense. I also got the Ragavan part wrong, but I think I was just answering too quickly and not thinking about it. The "When" rewording I got though. Thanks for teaching all of these!
It's really interesting that this exact interaction can happen in Limited events too! Aside from the obvious cards like Phelia, the Creation of Avacyn does the exact same interaction of exiling the card, then putting that card directly into play from Exile. I knew this ruling prior to watching because I actually saw a screenshot of this happening. Very cool interaction
Yeah, but unfortunately there are some rules and rules interactions where the obvious interpretation can lead to some pretty messed up game states. Also, I think some of the judges and people writing the rules are actual lawyers (contract lawyers, specifically). :P
I got 3/3! (Or however many there were) Though I didn’t have a particularly good explanation of the first one. I just sort of inherently knew that ETBs happen instantly without using the stack, but I forgot that it was ultimately a replacement effect and so on Thanks for the rulings! 😊
You tricked me with the initial formulation at 0:07 "When it's returned to the battlefield, does it see itself in exile and enter with 10 counters?". Since it starts with "When" my immediate reaction was "It's triggered when it enters the battlefield so obviously it can't see itself in exile". But when you said it was a replacement effect I read this version of Ulamog carefully and yeah, it's not triggered so it enters from exile with the counters.
This is actually the first time since I've been watching your videos that I just, didn't know the answer to one of these that was 3 stars or lower. Huh. I would have never guessed it worked that way. Now that you've explained it, it makes sense, but I wouldn't have thought that.
Question: If I control a clone and an Ulamog, the Defiler and I Flicker the clone. I have the clone enter as Ulamog, the Defiler. Does the clone enter with 4 counters or 10?
@@simonteesdale9752 Ok this is the bit I don't get then. Ok so the clone is in exile about to enter the battlefield and it's replacement effect has it become a copy of ulamog. Then ulamog's replacement effect then happens. In the video he says that replacement effects look at the characteristics of how the permanent would exist on the battlefield 1:27 so wouldn't it see itself as ulamg with 10 cmc?
And what if i cast ulamog, but my opponent, in response, cast dress down? Does it enters with counters? And what if the dress down is cast in response to the flicker? Great video as always
It will not enter with counters as long as there is a dress down out. 614.12: Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
"As ~ enters" works the same as "~ enters with" because they're both replacement effects according to 614.1c, and 614.4 says that replacement effects happen before the event they're modifying occurs.
@@macmusial3644 Ok, riddle me this. What happens if a card (white creature) has "as this enter the battlefield, choose a colour, creatures of the chosen colour can't enter the battlefield from exile"... and you choose white?
@@damien4197 The creature will enter the battlefield as normal, per CR 614.17d: 'Some "can't" effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield or whether it can enter the battlefield. Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). [...]' "Creatures of the chosen color" is a general subset of permanents, so that effect doesn't modify the creature's own entry to the battlefield.
@@damien4197 It would be able to enter the battlefield fine, the ability wouldn't start being in effect until the moment the creature actually enters the battlefield according to 611.3b, and by then it's too late for it to stop the creature from entering the battlefield because it already has.
"There's no time between when Ulamog is on the battlefield and when the counters are on it. Therefore, when the game is deciding how many counters to put on Ulamog, it's gotta be doing this right before Ulamog enters the battlefield." That's a contradiction.
No. The game decides how many counters go on Ulamog while it's still in exile. Then it enters the battlefield with those counters. But those are two discrete steps with nothing in between
@@danieljohns95djthat is actually not the case. Here's a ruling from Solemnity: "Solemnity stops counters from being put on an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land as it enters the battlefield, as well as stopping counters from being put on them later." The reason that it doesn't stop Planeswalkers is because they are (intentionally) not one of the card types it lists (it stops counters from being put on artifacts, creatures, enchantments, or lands).
I really hate this one. Overall the MTG rules ever since the 6th ed overhaul are too in love with "steps" and allergic to things happening simultaneously. A rule that IS still elegant in that way is "as" replacement effects, where in fact two things CAN happen at the same time. No reason the rules can't handle this! Yet for some reason they need to make a distinction between the time the # of counters is determined, and the time it actually is on the field with those counters? Why? Why can't the determination be made at the same time the counters are placed, which as you pointed out, is distinctly NOT when the card is in exile anymore? It's very strange to me.
Really wish WOTC would stop making cards as sadly broken as this which ruins the "fun" to play the game, as this is ZERO fun to play against at all. Also they should revise annihilator to mean when it deals combat damage to the player, not upon declaring as an attacker.
Игры
I am suprised Oblivion Ring wasn't among the additional examples.
When you O-Ring an Ulamog and then the O-Ring leaves the battlefield, the returning Ulamog will also be seeing itself in exile.
Oblivion Ring is effectively a slow flicker effect for the purposes of Ulamog, yeah.
I love this channel, always learn something new
I knew this one, mostly because I played Nethroi on Arena and saw a similar interaction with Golgari Raiders. I was blown away when I realized it counted itself and everything else Nethroi was bringing back, but thinking back on what I had learned from your videos, I realized it made sense.
I initially said no, but that was because I was thinking of Ulamog the Powercrept rather than Ulamog, the Defiler.
Oof I got it wrong this time, but the explanation makes a lot of sense.
I also got the Ragavan part wrong, but I think I was just answering too quickly and not thinking about it.
The "When" rewording I got though. Thanks for teaching all of these!
It's really interesting that this exact interaction can happen in Limited events too! Aside from the obvious cards like Phelia, the Creation of Avacyn does the exact same interaction of exiling the card, then putting that card directly into play from Exile. I knew this ruling prior to watching because I actually saw a screenshot of this happening. Very cool interaction
Really counter-intuitive at first glance.
Yeah, but unfortunately there are some rules and rules interactions where the obvious interpretation can lead to some pretty messed up game states. Also, I think some of the judges and people writing the rules are actual lawyers (contract lawyers, specifically). :P
ba-dum tsst
Did, did you just?
@@dragonfeets2032 maybe
I got 3/3! (Or however many there were)
Though I didn’t have a particularly good explanation of the first one. I just sort of inherently knew that ETBs happen instantly without using the stack, but I forgot that it was ultimately a replacement effect and so on
Thanks for the rulings! 😊
Great video as always!
I only knew this one because of seeing someone else talking about this combo yesterday. Really odd but it makes sense why it has to be this way.
I hope SaffronOlives makes an against the odds episode featuring these two cards 🤗
You tricked me with the initial formulation at 0:07 "When it's returned to the battlefield, does it see itself in exile and enter with 10 counters?". Since it starts with "When" my immediate reaction was "It's triggered when it enters the battlefield so obviously it can't see itself in exile". But when you said it was a replacement effect I read this version of Ulamog carefully and yeah, it's not triggered so it enters from exile with the counters.
This is actually the first time since I've been watching your videos that I just, didn't know the answer to one of these that was 3 stars or lower. Huh. I would have never guessed it worked that way. Now that you've explained it, it makes sense, but I wouldn't have thought that.
Nick just can't catch a break
Question:
If I control a clone and an Ulamog, the Defiler and I Flicker the clone.
I have the clone enter as Ulamog, the Defiler.
Does the clone enter with 4 counters or 10?
Assuming you don't have anything else in exile, It'll get 4.
The clone sees itself as a clone in exile.
@@simonteesdale9752 Ok this is the bit I don't get then.
Ok so the clone is in exile about to enter the battlefield and it's replacement effect has it become a copy of ulamog.
Then ulamog's replacement effect then happens.
In the video he says that replacement effects look at the characteristics of how the permanent would exist on the battlefield 1:27 so wouldn't it see itself as ulamg with 10 cmc?
@@JohnSmith-vn7cy but ulamog doesn't look at the permanent on the battlefield - it looks at what's in exile, which is a clone with mana value 4.
And what if i cast ulamog, but my opponent, in response, cast dress down? Does it enters with counters? And what if the dress down is cast in response to the flicker? Great video as always
It will not enter with counters as long as there is a dress down out.
614.12: Some replacement effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield. (See rules 614.1c-d.) Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). They may also come from other sources. To determine which replacement effects apply and how they apply, check the characteristics of the permanent as it would exist on the battlefield, taking into account replacement effects that have already modified how it enters the battlefield (see rule 616.1), continuous effects from the permanent's own static abilities that would apply to it once it's on the battlefield, and continuous effects that already exist and would apply to the permanent.
Thanks!!!
Would "as ~ enters the battlefield, put a number of counters..." mean it's out of exile before that replacement is checked?
"As ~ enters" works the same as "~ enters with" because they're both replacement effects according to 614.1c, and 614.4 says that replacement effects happen before the event they're modifying occurs.
@@macmusial3644 Ok, riddle me this. What happens if a card (white creature) has "as this enter the battlefield, choose a colour, creatures of the chosen colour can't enter the battlefield from exile"... and you choose white?
@@damien4197 The creature will enter the battlefield as normal, per CR 614.17d:
'Some "can't" effects modify how a permanent enters the battlefield or whether it can enter the battlefield. Such effects may come from the permanent itself if they affect only that permanent (as opposed to a general subset of permanents that includes it). [...]'
"Creatures of the chosen color" is a general subset of permanents, so that effect doesn't modify the creature's own entry to the battlefield.
@@damien4197 It would be able to enter the battlefield fine, the ability wouldn't start being in effect until the moment the creature actually enters the battlefield according to 611.3b, and by then it's too late for it to stop the creature from entering the battlefield because it already has.
"There's no time between when Ulamog is on the battlefield and when the counters are on it. Therefore, when the game is deciding how many counters to put on Ulamog, it's gotta be doing this right before Ulamog enters the battlefield."
That's a contradiction.
No. The game decides how many counters go on Ulamog while it's still in exile.
Then it enters the battlefield with those counters.
But those are two discrete steps with nothing in between
@@Vex-MTG Sure, but that's a misuse of the word "as."
@@NotYourAverageNothingWhere was "as" used? Don't see it in the quote or their response.
@@seandun7083 In the text of the card: "as it enters the battlefield."
@@NotYourAverageNothing Ulamog uses "enters with", though they do work the same in the rules.
wait, what????
I got it right because it's similar to the reanimated ggt.
Flicker + Ulomog + Solemnities? I'm sure he prolly doesn't enter with anything
"Enters with" means the counters are already on Ulamog by the time solemnity sees it. Works the same with planeswalkers.
@@danieljohns95djthat is actually not the case. Here's a ruling from Solemnity:
"Solemnity stops counters from being put on an artifact, creature, enchantment, or land as it enters the battlefield, as well as stopping counters from being put on them later."
The reason that it doesn't stop Planeswalkers is because they are (intentionally) not one of the card types it lists (it stops counters from being put on artifacts, creatures, enchantments, or lands).
Cheated with this one, cause I saw this question online
I really hate this one. Overall the MTG rules ever since the 6th ed overhaul are too in love with "steps" and allergic to things happening simultaneously. A rule that IS still elegant in that way is "as" replacement effects, where in fact two things CAN happen at the same time. No reason the rules can't handle this! Yet for some reason they need to make a distinction between the time the # of counters is determined, and the time it actually is on the field with those counters? Why? Why can't the determination be made at the same time the counters are placed, which as you pointed out, is distinctly NOT when the card is in exile anymore? It's very strange to me.
Really wish WOTC would stop making cards as sadly broken as this which ruins the "fun" to play the game, as this is ZERO fun to play against at all. Also they should revise annihilator to mean when it deals combat damage to the player, not upon declaring as an attacker.