Dead Things | Buffy the Vampire Slayer 6x13 | The Normies Group Reaction
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- Опубликовано: 15 май 2024
- This episode was happy for about 3 whole minutes.
Watch The Normies react to Buffy the Vampire Slayer season 6 episode 13, "Dead Things."
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Have no fear Buffy is here!!! What do we think of this season so far?
While it can be a little slow, weird, or uncomfortable at times, I also really appreciate this season for its whole "LIFE is the Big Bad" approach - and the way it forces all the characters to grow up in complicated and messy ways. Since the whole show is a metaphor for the journey through adolescence into adulthood, a season like this is kind of crucial.
X-Men ‘97
Season 6 is my personal fav. It's messy, chaotic, sad and also super realistic. This is the season where they stepped their game up and showed us what this show is capable of in terms of characters development. So many more things to unpack and we'll talk about it once the season is over. But boy, what a ride
This is my favorite season. It only gets better from here human villains that are just as evil any demon Buffy has ever fought.
It is a season people can appreciate with time. The most audacious season and the best for all the characters because their developped so well. The bad guy is life, and the resurrection and how characters go through this is really well done
I love how down to earth and supportive Tara is, I think that’s her best quality
Her emotional intelligence is underrated.
Yes! That final scene with Tara and Buffy was so powerful, and I love how supportive and understanding Tara was being, even giving the surprising news.
Yeah. As she stepped into Joyce’s role, she became my favorite character.
😢@@benllewellyn297
This is when the Trio's comic book super villan fantasy meets with real world concequences.
Yep. This is a brutal turning point. I'm not sure what the Sunday Rundown comment was Rana was referring to, but if I had to guess I would imagine it's not "You'll learn to love the Trio" and more "You'll understand what makes them work as villains."
These people are real. They are incels, they have too much power, and too little empathy. You don't encounter a lot of Gods or mayors-turned-snake in real life. But you will encounter Warrens. They darken our society daily. It's the kind of toxic masculinity we talk about more in 2024 than we did in 2002, but the show already had a good sense of the existence of these kinds of men.
But they don't endure it until later on.
How does everyone just forget that like, 3 episodes ago, when Spike found out he could hit Buffy, he thought his chip was broken and *immediately* ran to the nearest ally and attempted to murder the first person he saw?
It's the power of the Marsters, lol. He's turned Spike into a genuinely loveable character. I think your comment is very interesting though because I think this is some of the frustration the writers felt over the years with fans just not realising Spike's true nature, to the point where they felt they needed to address it.
@@jakelover1731maybe thats why writers do what they do in the end of season, more specifically ep 19
@@jakelover1731 James has admitted this in many interviews, particularly on the Michael Rosenbaum podcast. Half the writers kept writing Spike as valiant and loveable, and Jane Espenson and Joss Whedon kept getting irate because they were trying to showcase how toxic Spike is, even while chipped, and the fans kept forgiving his transgressions and it was pissing them off lol So Jane wrote a specific scene into an episode........
@@Bodankican’t wait for them to see that scene. If they give him any type of pass like they’ve been all season, I’m going to SCREAM!!!
@@notyouraveragebear9326 That's the thing bout Spike tho... in-universe and in the fandom, he gets a lot of passes.
God Sarah Michelle Gellar was just stellar. There are a lot of things that made this show great but her acting was just icing on the cake.
Apparently this was her most hated episode to film, specifically the balcony scene in The Bronze.
Best lead.
Using the R word is often really important - a lot of men who prey on women in vaguely ambiguous situations don't actually think of themselves as doing that. When they're sometimes coercive, deceptive, stealthing, when a woman's highly intoxicated, when their romantic partner is asleep, etc. they don't think of themselves as rapists. These guys didn't, and given their (im)maturity it was very believable that they wouldn't put two-and-two together until the word was used. I've heard some women say that if they find themselves in complicated situations it can sometimes be useful to blurt out that word to force a man to confront what he's doing.
And Women
Abusers in psychological studies have been shown to consistently minimize their attacks, to paint the victim as somehow exaggerating or deserving, to even believe that the victim physically feels less pain than others do. It's a mechanism to protect their own ego, to avoid the pain of acknowledging they hurt someone. R*pe culture reinforces that mechanism from an early age in a lot of countries. Being called out by one's peer group is the best way to disrupt that pattern.
Spike should have used the A word in the alley.
I remember first watching that moment and feeling flooded with shock. I knew that’s what was happening but having her say it aloud really cemented it. Made me realize how rare it is to be called out.
Your question as to why the Trio hates Buffy, I think the answer is they don't. Like Katrina says, they see it all as a game or fantasy. It's fun to fantasize about being a supervillain with an arch nemesis. In the case of Jonathan and Andrew they like the idea of being powerful and haven't thought too deeply about any of it. In Warren's case he is a real misogynist and psycho and he does not care who gets in the way of what he wants. Buffy, as a powerful woman, is a target for him. Jonathan never wanted to hurt anyone, including Buffy, but got caught up in the excitement of belonging to a group and feeling powerful. Which is just what he wanted in his Superstar episode. I also like to think it sunk in that what he did with the twins in that episode was also rape.
Agreed but Warren does hate Buffy, the two other guys are as you say caught in the fantasy but Warren strikes me as being full aware on where things are going.
This is a great comment and I think I'd go a step further with Jonathan and say it's completely understandable that he was sucked into Warren's orbit. Who did he have? Yes, Buffy saved his life, but it's not like she befriended him after that, nor did any of the Scoobies. As Buffy tells Giles, she's not Saint Buffy. (Not judging her for it, just stating the reality of what happened.) In the two big Jonathan episodes prior to this season we do get meaningful Jonathan interaction with the main cast, but for most of the show's runtime he is an awkward, ignored, occasionally bullied teen who lives his life - and he knows it, too - in the background of people with actual lives, actual friends, actual development. This is why he does what he does in Superstar: he wants to transform from passive, stepped on observer into active, heroic participant. Yes, Buffy gives him good advice at the end of that episode, but how realistic was it to expect he would take that to heart and transform his life for the better? That stuff is hard, and harder still when you don't really have a support system to see you through it. Cue Warren, who, although nefarious, does give Jonathan a sense of belonging to a group, and a sense that his magical dabbling can be put to use. He offered Jonathan the role of active participant, whilst hiding or at least not showcasing his dangerous and sociopathic nature. And now here we are.
@@Henrik_Holst You're right, he probably hates Buffy, but not because of anything in particular, just because he would hate any powerful woman.
@@Henrik_Holst you're right, he probably does hate Buffy but not because of anything in particular, but because he would hate any powerful woman.
@@NJM519 yep, also I think on the fantasy level they are kind of on the Unbreakable train where they believe that a supervillain must have a superhero antagonist.
"I don't get why they hate buffy" they don't they just wanna play supervillain and for their eyes buffy is a superhero
Spike did think the chip had stopped working, the first thing he did was go and try to attack someone
The Trio doesn’t hate Buffy, they love her. They need her for their delusion to be super villains. Super villains need a hero to have purpose.
Love is a strong word for that.
I like that the use of the R word hit Jonathan like a ton of bricks. You can see ge was so wrapped up in the comic-booky supervillian fantasy the fact that thats what it is never even occurred to him.
Rana was the first one to say Warren is a problem in Gone I think. Now I hope it is sinking in how bad he really is.
Spike is a vampire without a soul... You guys seem to be forgetting that he is simply restraining.
I've always loved that Buffy chose Tara to confide in. Shows how much their friendship has grown since first meeting
Their reaction Seeing Red is gonna be crazy
I love how down to earth and support Tara is as a friend, I think that’s her best quality
As someone who's been dealing with depression for years, let's just say that I completely understand Buffy's actions, and why she ends up hooking up with Spike. It's not healthy, but at least you get to feel something (bad) during and afterwards.
Such a good, but heavy episode. Rana has a clear perspective on Spike.
Amber Benson, who plays Tara Maclay in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, dated Adam Busch, who plays Warren Mears, from 2002 to 2009. The two have remained close friends.
Adam is so good at depicting Warren as the conniving scum he truly is...
The key distinction between Spike and Angel is that Angel feels remorse for the evil things he did in the past, whereas Spike doesn't. Spike doesn't do evil things now because he can't, not because he has developed the capacity to understand why they were wrong.
This, look at how he physically treats Buffy the second he realises he can attack her without the chip pain. To me Spike is effectively an example of the guy who dates a girl who comes off as nice in company but is scum behind closed doors
@Wezt334 indeed. His first inclination when he thinks his chip isn't working is to murder some innocent girl, then when that fails and he realises he can only hit Buffy his immediate next action is to isolate her, lure her into an alley and beat the shit out of her, and this only stopped because halfway through the fight she pounced on his dick and starting fucking him. And afterwards, his first comment "I knew the only better than killing a slayer would be [banging one]"
@@Wezt334 Indeed. His first inclination when he thinks his chip isnt working is to murder an innocent woman. When that fails and he realises its only Buffy he can hit, is to lure her on her own to an alley and beat the shit out of her. He only stops this because she pounces on his dick and starts fucking him mid fight.
I mean the real distinction is because Angel has a soul and Spike doesn't. They made angelus and angel so different in there approach that it feels like spike is not that bad in comparison because he does some things that are nice.
No. The difference between Angel and Spike, at this point in the show, is Angel has a soul. Angelus would never have a fraction as much empathy as soulless Spike has had.
I love the end of this episode. I love every time Buffy and Tara are friends. It's special.
This ep is just so uncomfortable... But in the very best way somehow?
Warren Mears weirdly has a lot in common with Willow this season. The disturbing stuff earlier this season might have seemed like minor things but over time it added up to them becoming monsters worse than what Buffy hunted on a regular basis.
Sarah's acting in this episode is phenomenal. She deserves all the praise in the world
#SundayRundown
I don't think Buffy is torn to pieces because of the hookups with Spike. Spike is a side effect to what she's feeling, not the cause. Buffy is still severely depressed and traumatized from being ripped out of heaven. She was at peace, and abruptly thrown back into this cruel world. A world without her Mom, without hope, without purpose. The crying at the end to Tara isn't her feeling shame for boinking Spike, as much as it is her experiencing shame for feeling so depressed and helpless since coming back from heaven. She hasn't really talked about that with anyone 😔
And this is, why Tara is beside Cordi one of the real friends to Buffy, and not the other Scoobies
The two are actually really close friends IRL, and they never shared any screen time.
Come on now, the OG four's bond is too strong to be dismissed.
@@jp3813 Unfortunately no. Until the end, Xander was someone who only thought about himself and often acted very selfishly, often at the expense of Buffy. See for example Angel/Angelus in Season 2. Willow was just as selfish, and quickly threw Buffy under the bus, see Season 7. Although Buffy was always there for her. Giles, Willow and Xander were always good at judging Buffy. Cordi and Tara never did that.
@@PATZ1984 Friends aren't perfect, but there's no ignoring all the good things they did for each other (ex: Xander in "The Freshman"). Judging people is Cordi's specialty, even Buffy. Tara is the kindest, but whenever something bad happens to her, I don't think it hurts Buffy as much as it does Willow & Dawn.
"You accept the love you think you deserve"
Tara’s story was entwined with Willow, so their break unfortunately removes Tara from the story. This episode was good Willowless Tara content. It was a really good idea to have Buffy rely on Tara to deal with her problems. I like mixing up character dynamics where we see people interact who don’t usually converse. Tara was a very supportive friend and wasn’t judgmental with Buffy at all. Just processed what she heard and tried to help her friend deal with it. Tara is a real one.
Tara is the most purely good person in the show, in my opinion.
SMG has stated the scene with Spike on the balcony is one of the most degrading things she’s done.
I feel like the Normies are missing two actually important things. 1) The Trio isn’t evil. WARREN is evil, and Jonathan and Andrew are two losers who want to be accepted and belong. They kind of just gravitate around Warren because he makes them feel powerful for the first time. Then the line between fantasy and reality get blurred (note Andrew and Jonathan reacting to the reality that what they were going to do was the r word). And with Warren in particular, he’s a total sociopathic misogynist. Every time his masculinity is damaged, he becomes more and more enraged. They don’t have an end goal with Buffy, they’re too deep in their fantasy to think that far ahead. Warren just hates her because she has power. 2) Spike. Spike is bad for Buffy. He pulls her into the darkness with him. Most importantly, he has no soul. When a human becomes a vampire they lose their soul and a demon takes its place. That demon is evil, chaotic, selfish, and has no conscience. The body the demon is inhabiting still has a brain though, with memories and personality traits. Spike was a hopeless romantic and poet as a human. That’s baked into him, soul or not. Spike without a soul, though, is always going to feel compelled to listen to his demon instincts to do evil things, to hurt, to take, etc. He isn’t neutered. If the chip was removed, he would lean back into those demonic instincts. Buffy deserves to be with someone that makes her feel happy and good about herself, someone who wants to see her thriving in the light. Spike is just infatuated. That’s not real love. Love requires a soul, in the Buffyverse.
Nah. Andrew and Jonathan had to make a thousand decisions that led them to develop a process and plan, then giddily go human shopping, knowing the victim's consent was removed by the "cerebral dampener." A device that is literally designed to remove consent. There's no soft-shoe tippy toe out of that. I don't care what they do later. They are just as responsible as Warren.
My first reply might have been hidden because of accidental spoilers(?). So I'll shorten it to: Regardless of why Andrew and Jonathan went along with Warren, they are still very active participants in removing consent for the purpose of kidnapping and SA.
@@em8066 I totally agree. I’m just talking about their intent. Warren is sadistic. Andrew and Jonathan want to belong. All three committed a crime though.
Warren's character becomes more engaging over time IMO. We see his character personality A LOT now and entire industries are funded by people being drawn to his personality type.
@@chaost4544 I sometimes think of Warren as an extension of the guys from I Robot, You Jane (maybe even hanging out with them off-camera). It's an episode that's not very good, but at the time it was viewed as typical '90s Internet hysteria, where today its premise reads more like a prediction of the rise of incel culture, gamer-gate, etc.
One of my favorite episodes of the season. I think it brilliantly captures the theme's and emotional throughlines of the season. This is the season of rock bottoms.
In this universe The Soul exists and is the key distinct feature in what makes humans even have the capacity for "being good". Vampires don't have that at all. In fact, the lack of the soul is what drives those "dark urges" to kill people, to cause mayhem, and to generally be evil.
Angel has a soul. Spike does not. However Spike is a unique case in that he has a leash on his bloodlust. The chip in his head prevents him from doing harm to humans. But the first thing he did when he thought it didn't work, after punching Buffy, was try to eat a random innocent person.
If the soul makes people good then explain Warren. I mean I do agree to a certain point I just don't believe the soul is as important as angle and the council made it out to. The council of watch just want slayer to think all demons are evil and Angel just likes to make himself seem special.
@@92sentrelltbf they said the capacity, it doesn't mean a straight soul=good. Angel by gaining a soul experienced guilt, remorse and shame before taking action. Warren is just a shitty human, still has a soul but it's definitely tainted.
@@Al7249 Plus there was that little boy from season one of Angel who was born without a soul and turned out to be so evil as a soulless child that the demon possessing him was begging to escape him.
Souls have always existed in real life.
PLEASE, you, and EVERYONE, if you haven't already, embrace the One True Only God YHWH Jehovah, Only One Jesus Christ His Only Begotten Son and Lord and Savior of our souls and the Only One Holy Spirit. God is good. God is love. Jesus is Lord. Jesus IS coming. Your soul depends on it!
I have seen God act in my life. He saved my soul, changed my heart, changed my mind, helped people through me, took care of people in my life, people I hurt before I found God. God is the only reason I was able to reconcile with my dad before he died.
God worked through Jesus Christ to save our souls. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and that God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. Be baptized in The Holy Spirit, and if He wills, water as well. Repent of your sins, accept God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit into your heart, that Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son Jesus Christ, that all who believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jesus Christ is The Way, The Truth and The Life. No one comes to the Father Jehovah God but through Him.
Not long after I got saved I prayed to God for help understanding the Holy Bible, and that same day someone knocked on my door asking me if I wanted to understand the Bible.
The Holy Bible says, "love thy enemy", "turn the other cheek", "If your enemy is hungry, feed him", "if he is thirsty, give him a drink", "pray for those who persecute you", "do not repay evil for evil".
LORD willing, all humans may commit sin of almost every kind (gay, straight), and that's wrong, and all humans sin, as God tells us through the The Holy Bible, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus." The Holy Bible also says, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
@@Dagenspear Hail Satan
Despite this being one of the hardest episodes in the series, for me; I was very curious to see The Normies reaction to it, considering past reactions to The Trio.
Marketa's right when she says all three of them are complicit on all charges that would be filed. And the morality of what they were doing even when Andrew and Jonathon thought it was innocenr (Jonathan should even know better considering the twins in _Superstar_ wouldn't have been willing if they weren't under his _Jonathan is great_ spell.
Rana, timetravel/undoing it wouldn't change the fact that it has already been done. Timetraveling doesn't change who the timetravelers are and what they've done. Reversing the actions doesn't change that. If timetravel hit more on those issues time travel wouldn't be so confusing and it would deal with more important themes than the fun of time travel.
Also, Rana: Buffy realizing The Trio has been behind the dead girl issue doesn't solve the overall problem which made her turn herself in and beat Spike nearly unconscious. Until she deals with said depression and it's root cause, she will continue just sliding down slopes like sleeping with Spike, beeting him into near uncounciousness, and assuming turning herself in is a good thing.
What I think is different from the "old school movies" Chris referenced and how they referenced the badness here, is that BtVS made it clear The Trio is wrong in all things (even before this episode), whereas those "old school movies" like the '80's John Hughes films, as examples, mske it all seem like a good thing to get the girl through horrible means. The scary thing is most pop culture before _Twilight_ had society not recognizing problems in the relationships or how people handle relationships of pop culture. One of the many things I like about BtVS is that it was ahead of it's time in showing said badness for what it was, even if not always directly.
Their goal for The Trio was to have fun and make inventions as they figure out how to "take over Sunnydale." What we see here is that Andrew and Jonathan thought it was all in good fun and were following the leadership of someone (Warren) who actually thinks he can take over Sunnydale, but also (clearly) wants to be evil, but is still just a creepy, little nerd. It's a danderous combination that has the writers showing the viewers, on purpose, the underbelly of everything Chris talked about with the "old school movies" while mixing it into the mythology of the show.
I have a hard time understanding if The Normies understand Buffy's depression or not. They seem to be hitting some of the beats of why she is, but never outwardly just say she is depressed. And then start talking about issues about times before Buffy's depression. Buffy laid out how much she hates herself in this episode and how much she knows she's using Spike, but doesn't understand why, if there's nothing wrong with her after coming back from the dead. It all stems from being risen from the dead after being in heaven. Very little, if any said depression, involves Spike's actions with vs without the chip. Everything in Buffy's depression stems back to Willow, Xander, Anya, and Tara resurrecting her: Sleeping with (and using) the soulless Spike, the shame that's leading to not talking to any of her friends (it doesn't help that their resurrecting her has her have issues towards them), hating herself, and beating up Spike, etc.
The Normies need to remember Spike is soulless. With the chip, he's just a dangerous dog in a muzzle. Emotions aren't the same thing to him as they are to people who have souls. The chip forced him to not seek out bloodlust issues, but the bloodlust is alway there and has never gone away. And good things he does, doesn't mean he's a good person, even if it means good things are being done.
We already know what Spike would do if the chip stopped working because he straight went to try and kill a young woman just a few episodes back when he believed that it stopped working.
This cannot be compared with Angel who is two completely different persons with and without the soul, the Angel that killed Ms Calendar is not the same Angel that Buffy later reconnected with.
Oh yeah, Angelus would've found a way to murder that young woman and torture Buffy's friends even _with_ the chip
I truly do not understand their thinking on this.
0 IQ take.
Spike attacked that woman because he wanted to prove to her that he really was the monster that Buffy had just called him to be.
He was angry, and had to psyche himself up to try.
@@Mant111 perhaps not the time to come with such a dumb argument when you start with an insult...
No he did not do that to prove anything, he did it the second he thought the chip malfunctioned. It had zero to do with Buffy, did you even watch the episode in question?
@@Mant111 It's not a 0 IQ take, there's many others who would take it much further than Henrik here. I agree with you, but there's no way to compare Angel's humanity with Spike's. My thing is I don't judge him as a human. As a demon or a vampire I think Spike is more moral than most.
I don’t think they hate Buffy, they want to be super villains and Buffy is a superhero so they would eventually collide.
Even though it may seem Spike hiding the body for selfish reasons he was right. Buffy did save the world a lot, and Sunnydale didn't stand a chance without her. Even Faith said the samething but explained it poorly not to mention Giles told her that stuff like has happened before. Also in a way Spike does love Buffy even without a soul, mostly because as a human he was more compassion a poet a lover. Angel as a human cared little for noone or anything. Which is the reason he makes such a frightening vampire.
I think that's too simple an explanation of Angel and Spike as humans, they both learned a lot from becoming vampires.
Angel not caring about people should have made him a tame vampire. the in-show logic is that the sweeter a person they were the more vile they are as vampires.
@@sugardares That's a nice tie in! There _is_ an in show fanon type logic, but I don't think it's about sweetness as much as your willingness to be evil, or go against convention. Spike was a romantic for example, who would do anything for love. Liam was also to a lesser degree, but grew up in a more strict Catholic environment, like Drusilla. Harmony didn't change much, she just always did what she thought would be best for her, which is follow the group. There's much to be said about both.
I just want to say that the trio are supposed to be unlikable. I don’t think that people are saying “give them a chance” as far as finding them likable. It’s like if Andrew Tate was popular in the early 2000s and some of his fans just happened to be aspiring supervillains. They are children living out a power fantasy to take what they want with no consequences. Now they face real consequences and we see that Warren is unfazed, while Jonathan and Andrew show some remorse. They are all still evil though.
This is such a pivotal episode for this season and agruably the series. The nerds have done stupid crimes without any real victims or consequences until now
And Buffy finally admitting to using Spike, how is that ok, and that she needs to be "abnormal" to explain the choices she's made lately. So many shows would have the main character be fine after the premiere episode or a handful of episodes in. Here we are episode 13 and Buffy isn't anywhere close to being ok or back to herself. Bravo for really diving into these topics
In all the years that the Slayer has existed, you would think that over time the Watchers council would have thought to get some therapists on staff that know about the supernatural, so they can help Slayers deal with the trauma of this life
I think all of their mistakes stem from treating the Slayer as a renewable resource, and their low life expectancy once called. They never thought about practical considerations to help their lives, only to make them better Slayers. If a Slayer is supposed to be a full time job, they shouldn't have to worry about anything else. Salary, home, insurance, etc etc should all be provided by the Council. Very selfish and short sighted to have gone all the way into the 1990s and not provide any support in all that time.
I think most Slayers have short lifespans. So they're seen as expendable.
@@jp3813they get to know what it’s like being a guy for a change.
@@neverbeganforme Guys get paid though.
@@jp3813 scraps and metals, yes. Women get paid more than guys for showing their toes. Your are, nor have you ever been, oppressed by the below average, average or above average guy.
This season is dark depressing, but except for a couple scenes (or episodes), it IS necessary. We all love strong characters when they're at their peak, but in this season they explore Buffy and the gang at their lowest, and (except for those 2-3 scenes) makes what's to come even more satisfying imo.
This was the best and somewhat most realistic season. Especially with Buffy working while everyone lives in the house with her.
Comparing Angel and Spike at this point is MEGA YIKES.
Nothing alike ever.
I believe that Spike does not love Buffy, he is obsessed with her and that is why Buffy completely can't accept this addiction to him since its incredibly toxic
well, this just isn’t true. he does love her but his love is inherently unhealthy because he does not have a soul. doesn’t matter what you believe because that’s a fact.
As Drusilla said last season, vampires CAN love, just not wisely.
#SundayRundown Woah, woah woah. Nobody told you guys to give the super incel trio a chance. They were a little amusing in the beginning, but they are revolting.
We meant that you should give Buffy ,the show, a chance. To trust that they will handle this properly. If you hate the trio, good. They are not supposed to be liked at all.
This is an episode that I really really admire, but also find really tough to watch. I love the call backs to Faith (Consequences and Who Are You?) - they show that even though she's depressed and her feelings are chaotic, at her core she's still the slayer she was called to be. But also, I think this ep provides fantastic insight into the ways people can convince themselves - allow themselves to be convinced - to take action that goes against their own code or moral core. Buffy needs some kind of solace as she spirals, and she can't just let herself have it with Spike, so she has to convince herself that she's bad to allow herself to do it. It's horrible for her, absolutely toxic. But it's also one of the most honest, rawest depictions of how a person will let themselves do that that I've ever seen on TV. SMG's acting here is just immense (esp. consider that I think she really hated this episode). Plus the fight scene, Tara shines, and the Trio's final dreadful turn into proper villains. All executed so well. But also .... ugh.
Chris: “He could be the first good vampire on purpose”
We’ve got a bumpy road ahead so hang on but it will smooth out.
Better to not give them any hints.
I really liked the Tara/Buffy friendship, it was something different from Willow’s and Xander’s and it was precious in its own way.
Rana has the most clear prospective on Spike
Rana was a mood this whole episode 😂
Normies, May 20, 2024 marks the 21st Anniversary of when "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" series ended it's run.
Spidey always has the best one liners lol
3:24 well that just curb stomped 20yo me's nuts geeeeeez
Spike always had some humanity before the chip. The demons could smell it on him in throw back eps.
It gets a little murky with spike, but it is important to remember he is soul-less! He has done some good but also the kind of "love" he is capable of is similar to obsession/ he was also like that with Dru...when she left him, his plan was to just go torture her till she loved him again 😬
I think the show really bent the rules with him a little so it gets complicated
Bc of spike fan service and pro-spike prominent writers in latter seasons. It warped the show.
There are so many spoilers in the comments section. The perspective people have on spike is only due to the upcoming episodes, let them go through the episodes and experience it for themselves
after defeat a god its hard to find a greater villan. some people didnt get the 3 nerds but is the logical villans, because they are human, have a soul and the worst thing, they are real, you can find warrens not to far, from were you live.
The scene where she beats Spike bc she hates herself is just like when Faith was in Buffys body in S4 and beating the crap out of herself.
Marti Noxon saying Spike could hurt Buffy because she "wanted him to" says it all. Most of the writers weren't equipped to tackle such storylines. Props to Sarah Michelle Gellar. Legendary.
And yes I know she wanted to be punished because she felt like she deserved it after coming back from heaven but fuck Spike and the writers for just how far they went with it.
I love spike as a character and he brings a lot to the show, but its concerning that there is more blame for buffy in this situation than him. He's literally trying to pull her into the darkness and isolating her from everyone. How is that any better or can be defined as good? Yes she's using him and its toxic on her end, but he also has a choice and is not some helpless victim. He's feeding into this and sees its as an opportunity to get buffy at her lowest state. She wouldn't of gotten together with him like this if she wasn't depressed. Anyways I feel like the spike/buffy dynamic changed after there first kiss in 6x07. Buffy gave in and there was no going back.
I guess if Warren repented and start helping out at a homeless shelter he'd be ok too. Except that spike hasn't repented and doesn't feel bad about the things he's done. I'm equally confused about there logic when it comes to Spike too.
Well Spike is a vampire. It is not like he has a soul. Just traits of his former self.
@@minuette1752 Yes and that’s my point. I don’t think they remember that though or forgot, because they think he’s turned ‘good’. He’s incapable of healthy love.
They didn't blame anybody more, they just described the situation as it was.
@@alicequinn505they definitely think Buffy is the abusive one in their “relationship”
When you compare Spike's love for Buffy to Angel's, its the perfect comparison of soul vs No soul. Angel's love for Buffy is true, so much so that he loved her enough to leave, because he knew being in a relationship with an immortal demon who drinks blood, cant have kids and cant go out in the sunlight, isnt something he wants to inflict on Buffy. Spikes love for Buffy, being soulless, is more of a selfish obsession. He craves her constantly and is trying to cause a rift between her and her family so that he can have her to himself. Thats not to say that Buffy isnt abusing his feelings for her, she surely is, but their relationship is toxic in almost every sense, for both of them, and its no good.
Spike is into being treated like a piece of shit, thats his kick, look at this relationship with Drusilla. He was with her for 100 years and she would basically piss off and leave him whenever Angelus was around, or any other demon that took her fancy (like the Chaos demon) and Spike would be left as a sulky little simp....thats what he thrives on. What Spike feels for Buffy isnt love as we know it, its what passes for love to a fucked up, soulless, kinky demon.
Except the part about Angel stalking a 14-15YO. Not trying to start a ship war, let's just be real. There are problems. xD
@@em8066 There were, which is why Angel left.
@@em8066 Eh she was more 17 at the time.
@@minuette1752 17 when they slept together. 14/15 (high school freshman) when he first saw her and fell in love or grew a purpose. You know, while peeking out from his van, as she sucked on a lollipop in a mini skirt, chattering with her friends in LA. Then he followed her to Sunnydale, cleaned himself up, and watched her in her 2nd floor bedroom without her knowledge. Then followed her around town just to flirt and be mysterious.
@@Bodanki You only mentioned the no babies and immortality problems. I filled in the predatory problems. yw
I feel like only Warren really hates Buffy, while Andrew and Jonathan are just along for the ride. The two of them never belonged, never had a group of friends to hang out with, etc, and now they do, plus Warren inflates their egos when necessary. Until Katrina came back out of the room and mentioned rape, they almost seemed to think that while she was under a spell, it was also something she was agreeing to. They seemed shocked about it and I don't think they were playing dumb, I think they just didn't see it as rape. I don't know if this is just because they are clueless in general or they are just dumb in terms of women and sex.
Buffy’s birthday is the next episode. It’s great.
Loved the reaction guys its was priceless haha
This episode would be impossible if the network actually had censors working at the time.
What I love about this episode and The Three in this season: you get to see the psychology of incels before there was a name for it. I grew up as a nerd, into all the same things they are into. Nerds are cool and nice. But we all knew a couple of "that kind of nerd."
Tbh Spike only exists at this point in the show bc he was a fan favorite. I would’ve been interested to see how the show went if it wasn’t so geared toward spike fans. Even one of the writers was a huge spike fan and pushed these latter season spike centric plots. Curious how it would’ve went if that weren’t the case.
The thing with the Trio is no one looks at them as a thereat as there human and nerds so there not doing anything about them this episode is to show both Buffy and the viewers there are dangerous and unhinged.
Lol. You are gonna love the rest of this season
Bruh if pat says you should be doing good you're a supervillain
Season 6 is in many ways one of the darkest seasons of Buffy...hands down. Its antagonists are human, not demonic...and that says a lot about humanity. After seasons of demons and outside forces and an occasional evil human here and there...this season settles into showing the Trio descending into real evil, and knowing its happening and sort of resigning themselves to it. Warren is their 'cult of personality' leader...and the others just follow...if a little grudgingly. As for Spike, he is still split between desire for Buffy inspired by actual passion...and his demon nature making any kind of healthy relationship impossible. In some ways, he's right...he understands the part of the Slayer that only exists in darkness and violence...and isn't horrified by it, which makes him unique in her world. In other ways, his love is obsessive and cruel, selfish and self indulgent. Even when the best part of Spike's dual nature is out front, Buffy is not emotionally ready to connect with it. Then...the rest of the crew has all had their issues as well...everyone is facing complex normal life personal problems...Willow with addiction, Dawn with adolescence and abandonment issues, Xander with the impending reality of marriage, Giles with the mixed fear of creating total dependence on him for support and accidentally stifling Buffy's growth as an adult, etc etc. Season 6 hammers home that none of the Scoobies have the luxury of carefree childhood anymore...and it makes for a season that can be hard to watch, and hard to predict, but somehow still amazing.
Great commentary 👌🏾💕
Great reaction, guys! Loved your analysis of the characters throughout the discussion. Also, to all the Spike haters. GO TEAM SPUFFY!!!!!!!!! ❤
My thoughts on Spike are so complicated in this season. Like, he is a soulless vampire who doesn't have morals. But he is capable of feeling genuine love and care for people. He just has very little concept of how to properly comprehend right from wrong. And even though he wants to do good because of Buffy, he would have no compulsion to do good for the sake of doing good. He doesn't have a soul, so every good thing he chooses to do is literally because he CHOOSES to do it. Yes, also because of Buffy, and because of the chip... But he is a DEMON actively choosing to try to do good things. Like already waaaaay better than all of other soulless vampires.
So I have a certain level of respect for his attempts. And it annoys me that Buffy has been using him, because he is genuinely in love with her. But overall I just feel bad for them both, because they are both just so lost and incapable of understanding how to be in a healthy relationship. It's so toxic, and they are both hurting themselves and each other at this point. I'm glad Buffy is letting Tara in on the situation. Tara can help her process everything. Unfortunately Spike has no ability to process the situation clearly, and has no one to confide in about it. His feelings are going to spiral and implode because he can't properly feel or understand how toxic it all is.
And I acknowledge that Spike not having a soul means he isn't a good person... but having a soul doesn't mean much if you don't use it anyways, as evidenced by the evil trio. They are humans, with souls... but still capable of truly demonic behavior. Having a soul gives you the ability to understand right from wrong... but it doesn't keep you from doing right or wrong. We choose to listen to our souls/morality, or we choose not to.
The real question is: what is going on at the Bronze with Buffy’s friends dancing the Charleston?
Easy. Willow & Xander are huge dorks and Anya has little to no awareness of pop culture.
I hope Rana knows that it's totally ok if she needs to step out of the room at any point. This series can get really dark and messed up at times.
I hope Suraj and Mickey make it back for the next one, Older and Far Away.
I love that this is the episode that turns the Trio from goofy incels into actual threats. It brings them crashing into the real world.
How is it that in a world of vampires, demons, evil gods, etc. Warren is somehow the worst of all.
I think what's so awesome about this season, is that it starts with these doofuses just trying to be comic book super villains to the person that they perceive as a superhero (That's why they hate Buffy), But the things they're doing are so morally reprehensible, that it very purposely crosses over from comic book villainy into very real world despicable actions. That, to me, is genius writing.
This episode had Rana going through it 😂
one of the best episodes of the season and the series tbh even if it's a tough one
When the comic relief villain turns out to be the worst one.
“buffy kind of sucks right now” as opposed to spike trying to manipulate/isolate her into thinking she belongs in the dark with him? buffy beating him was a bit much but he got physical with her first trying to stop her from turning herself in bc he couldn’t understand why killing someone (however accidentally) was something buffy felt like she had to come forward about
i def don’t agree dawn had a right to be mad about that. and spike def still feels bloodlust with the chip lol
It is getting serious. Love it.
Perfect counch here 👍 no more jokes and more serious review, please stay like that it's perfect
6 more episodes 👀👀
I don’t think the nerds hate Buffy . Warren does because she broke up him and Katrina . Andrew has a crush on Warren and follows him like a lap dog. Jonathan signed up to be a super villain without thinking it through and only just realising that he’s into something really messed up .
The crux of it is that he doesn't have a soul. By definition, that makes him evil in this universe.
I don’t understand how anyone could see Spike and Buffy’s relationship in S6 and genuinely ship them. The scene on the balcony at the Bronze was gross, Spike is alienating her from anything and anyone that could help her get better. I know she willingly goes to him, but he’s dragging her into the darkness in ways that can’t be forgiven.
We saw in Smashed when Spike thought for a minute that the chip stopped working, he promptly went to grab someone to eat. Spike is still a soulless vampire.
Watch out, the Devitos are multiplying!!!
Also we got Buffy's pure unedited feeling when it comes to Spike last season. She's disgusting by him. The fact that she feels this way about there relationship isn't that weird.
To be fair feelings Change all the time
@@gjjijji yeah feelings change, but we have the advantage of actually seeing what's changed. Buffy's unhealthy isolation from her loved one and everything she's going through with being brought back to heaven.
Though we speculate Spikes actions, his behavior since she came back speaks volumes that he doesn't really care for he in a selfless way. Someone who cares selflessly for someone doesn't continue to want her to isolated herself from her friends(that includes Dawn, her dependent that he supposedly cares about) gets into a ass whooping exchange with her when they first had sex etc. He just want her closer to him, whatever he has to do to get her there he'll do.
I always wonder if fans who think like you understand the fans who think the opposite
I love that this show chose to examine toxic incel culture over twenty years ago, before 'incel' was even a widely known term. Very ahead of its time.
I think we can see the way Buffy is now with Spike is that her sex addiction to him is reaching critical levels. Even though she needs him to fulfill her desires we know that deep down she knows this to be wrong, even though we see a soulless Spike seem to have genuine feelings at this stage. Buffy of course can confide in Tara, as she is still very much a periphery character in the group, and Buffy feels she can trust her without the others knowing. The Trio from being somewhat slapstick in earlier episodes are now becoming very sinister indeed, or rather Warren who is totally dominating the other two. Warren meeting Katrina again and treating her like this is terrible, this is actual sexual abuse (mirroring Rohypnol spiking), and the other two just seem to go along with it, as they a puerile idiots. When Warren murders Katrina, we can really see how totally evil he has become. The part back in The Bronze with Spike and Buffy is so telling, as she cannot resist the temptation from Spike, and he is questioning whether she really belongs with The Scoobies, again since switching Networks we can really see the adult tone of the show now. The devious plot by The Trio to frame Buffy for Katrina's murder spectacularly backfires thanks really to Spike begging Buffy to not go in, and I think it is so uncomfortable to watch Buffy beat Spike outside the Police Station, bordering on abuse after he tells her he loves her ' he says to her you always hurt the one you love'. When Buffy hears Katrina's name she realises the truth. A powerful ending when she opens up to Tara, saying 'why do I let him do these things to me' Buffy seems to be painting herself as a victim here, which in a way she is, but she is very much a willing partner unable to control her sexual urges. A terrific episode a 100% improvement on the preceding episode.
This is where The Trio become serious and not just a comic effect.
The thing about the trio is for two of them the "villainy" thing was a joke at first, purely comic book fantasy. Jonathan and Andrew had no interest in actually hurting Buffy or anyone in particular, their still complicit mind you but they're also exceedingly naive. The trio is a slow peek around the corner with Warren as the driving force behind their transition from something goofy into something ultimately not funny at all.
18:40 While it's obvious that Buffy is using Spike, he's using her as well. Yes, he loves her, but he has a very twisted sense of love (we've seen it in previous seasons with Drusilla and Harmony), and they're both very toxic for each other. And yes, what they have right now, NEEDS to stop. xd
24:00 spike is not there every time for the scoobies. He would only help when they paid him money. He's only there every time for Buffy. But like I said before, if a murderer fell in love with you and would come running if you called. He's ok? 🤷🏻♂️
He absolutely did help out the Scoobies, and not for money, not least while Buffy was dead. No hope of getting into her pants then, and he was happily being a Scooby for months with no reward.
@@phueal he did that for Buffy. He helped out to stay feeling close to Buffy. The end of my comment still stands. A murderer falls In love with you and help you he's all good now? He helped out yeah but where is the scene with the scoobies constantly asking him to show up and he's there? He was there keeping his promise to Buffy, protecting Dawn. When did we see the scoobies ask him to show up? They tolerate him because his feelings for Buffy and the fact that he's harmless with the chip. They know he has no remorse about the things he's done and would do them again.
@@kingmedjai9433 where is the scene of him saying he’s only doing it to feel close to Buffy? I agree with much of what you’ve said, and I’m not saying he gets his murders forgiven because he helps out, but the one bit I disagree with is his motivation. We’re both just speculating, because it’s not clarified in the show, but to me I’ve always thought that he continued helping for lots of reasons: because he liked Dawn, to keep his promise to Buffy, because he got a taste for it, and to give him something to do.
I don’t think he did it because of his obsession with Buffy - he didn’t know she was coming back, he would have moved on had that been it.
And the reason it matters is not because it earns Spike redemption but because it shows (to me) that his motivations are not purely selfish. He often helps out when there is nothing for him to gain from it.
@@phueal it's also speculation that he isn't motivation by his feelings for Buffy. So I guess we'd just go in circles speculating why he's doing it. But other things that he's done make all that pretty irrelevant imo considering what he tried to do a few episodes ago to that girl in the alley. What he's currently doing to Buffy and what he does in the future.
@@phueal I agree with you. They just inserted the narrative that Spike only helped when he was paid, which isn't true. It's clear they don't like Spike, and that's fine, whatever. But if he did only help when he got money then he'd be much less interesting as a character. The whole point since season 2 is that Spike is confused, confusing, morally gray and mostly twisted.
"She needs Linda, from LUCIFER". Great idea, Rana. That would be awesome, combing the two shows. Great Post, Normies.
If you think of the trio from where they started to now, it shows how people can be led into doing truly terrible things.
Warren was always a real bad guy, from the building a buffy bot episode on. The other two just follow along deeper and deeper.
Warren and Jonathan are just as responsible for what happened to Katrina.
Spike. Can't. Love.
Thanks.
You gotta remember that Spike changed but he is still soulless. Thats what makes him different than angel
X-Men ‘97
Explain season 6 of Buffy in less than 10 seconds @13:50 😂