And the absence of such experience is why I was already remembering the Chump... er, Champions before he even finished the phrase "completely forgettable"!
@@kenlieck7756 Nuts. That book was a fun read in the same way Defenders was. Both had that "random team of oddballs fighting gonzo villains" vibe throughout. And if weren't for them, we wouldn't have Swarm, comic's only Nazi made of bees.
@@richmcgee434 Actually I don't disagree with you -- but it is a fact that before he finished his sentence, my first thought was "The Champions"! (And I can't prove it, but surely there's other apian-oriented Aryan antagonists out there somewhere, just as I know where to find Zzyyxx, the other elf besides Relf and Melf who carries a gun.) Sieg Hive!
I loved how the Busiek era explored the "seduction of the light side" for a change. Doing good and being rewarded for it is a powerful incentive to change for the better.
I love the OG Thunderbolts. Seeing these villains pretending to be heroes and some of them realizing that was all they ever wanted and going all in on being heroes was great.
@@scottwagner2566 The very reason I snubbed the original *"Infinity Saga"* from the 90s. As far as I'm concerned, the 1984 12 issue *"Secret Wars"* is the ONLY Marvel event that truly mattered.
@@56postoffice I had to check out anything with Jim Starlin's name on it. That outweighs what I might think of Marvel's "events" in general. Btw, here in Texas we know it's only an event if it involves a fantastic deal on the new model years trucks!
@@56postoffice you're definitely missing out. Infinity Gauntlet is so fun and features incredible art. Don't sleep on it. Age of Apocalypse is also a ton of fun. That said, I think events should rarely happen.
I remember loving 'Thunderbolts' back in the 90s. I particularly enjoyed a crossover with Spider-Man in which Spidey's enthused to be working with these new heroes and Mach-1 is finding it very awkward due to the number of times he fought Spider-Man as The Beetle. Brilliant bit of subtle character work.
Original "Thunderbolts" run was a WONDERFUL change of pace and a breath of fresh are when it came out. The twist of taking the Masters of Evil taking on new identities and pretending to be heroes was just the icing on the cake. Busiek's obvious love for comics was a stark contrast to the deconstructionist mentality that was dominating the industry. Lots of writers love comics, but Busiek is one of those rare writers who just GETS it. I'll buy anything with his name on it.
I got this book in Italian about a year after it's original publication (there was a 10-13 months delay due to translation) and it was a insane. Granted, internet was nowhere near as big as it is today, but the fact that Marvel Italia was able to keep to lid on the pot for another year was huge.
I remember being hyped by this new super team when I was in high school post-Onslaught. That first issue reveal blew me and my comic-reading friends away at the time. Definitely one of the greatest comic twists of all time. I followed the book for years after, but nothing past that Busiek run ever captured the magic quite the same way again.
@@davidlloren The reasoning was probably they didn't know how long they could keep it going, and it would require them hiding parts about the characters and make them less interesting. I mean from what I read it almost got released in the Hulk Issue they were in that was released before their first comic, so they probably wanted to get out the surprise before it was ruined.
Brilliant series. After Busiek left the book, Fabian Nicieza took over for 40-some issues and the book was still great. For new readers, there are several recent softcovers collecting ALL of Busiek’s run and the first bit of Nicieza’s. Marvel just came out with an Omnibus line for this series, too.
Came to say exactly this: Fabian Nicieza's run was excellent and very faithful to Busiek's vision (kept twists and team dynamics changing), but after those two, all other thunderbolts runs fell short and it never felt like the same team again.
@Tennislove88 I feel the same way. Nothing recaptured the feel those two runs had. Ellis's run was alright, but it definitely felt like something very different. I love the late 90s Heroes return era.
Hard disagree with that one. I remember sticking with the series out of loyalty, but the counter-earth stuff was real rough to push through. I was kind of relieved when the series took a break to become a totally unrelated story about a fight club. The biggest problem is that most of the characters had their "bad guys become heroes" arc finished already. The book just kept inventing nonsense drama to keep them together and it all went nowhere.
To bad that the concept of the team has devolved from a team of reformed villains becoming heroes and doing good things of their own volition into instead being a wannabe Suicide Squad (an irritating status quo that was kicked off by, what else, Civil War).
I was a huge fan of the original Thunderbolts and fell off following every single version. BUT, I do like how they don't roll the same story and concept over and over.
I actually bought the omnibus from my LCS which collects the first 30 issues, the annual and 1st appearance in Hulk. It was excellent and the rare omnibus I actually finished.
I remember when Mark Bagley had his Spider-Man run, he didn't get the respect that he was due, mainly because he was in the shadows of Todd McFarlane and Erik Larsen, both of whom jumped ship to start Image, and had their mega-successful titles. I think Thunderbolts was when Bagley finally started getting respect as an artist, which is sad, because this was the time when I stopped reading comics. I still pick up an occasional comic from time to time, so I might give this a shot.
didn't get due respect? they got him to draw a whole card set, gave him a new Spider-Man comic to do from scratch, Bagley is the best damn Spider-Man artist ever
Funny how he’s now imo the best modern Spider-Man artist. No one is better. Especially the run on Ultimate which basically cemented Bagley as a legend.
It boggles my mind that the MCU is going to bring Thunderbolts to the screen as a cheap knockoff of Suicide Squad. Imagine if it had been the first movie after Endgame featuring a team of new "heroes" with this twist at the end. It could have been such a great start to a new wave of movies.
I loved the original run of the Thunderbolts. When the team was first introduced it was a rare bright spot in an otherwise very dark Marvel Universe, post-Onslaught/Clone Saga/the Crossing/outsourced Avengers and FF books (in short: Marvel's mid-90s identity crisis). It was such a shame to see the book never really receive the love it deserved, although at least it went out with a bang (the Avengers vs the Thunderbolts crossover). Then when New Thunderbolts debuted a few years later, it became my safe haven once again in a Marvel Universe that seemed overrun by Bendises (made the Avengers an utter drag to read and didn't "get" what the book was all about), Millars (too dark), and Brubakers (again too dark, and just not fun). New Thunderbolts, with Fabian Nicieza at the helm was one of the few books in 2005 to capture everything I loved about comic books: good stories that were engaging and involved, but also FUN, plot hooks that had me looking forward to the next issue each and every time (who was this new Swordsman? What is going on with Genis-Vell?), and character dynamics that left me hungry for more after each issue to see where they would go (Joystick was awesome almost reminding me of Mark Gruenwald-era Diamondback at times, the Speed Demon/Blizzard rivalry was great and I was really hoping Blizzard, arguably the biggest babyface on the team, would eventually get his comeuppance against the team's greatest heel, Speed Demon). Both Busiek and Nicieza are just awesome at taking relatively minor characters from Marvel history, and expanding them into full fledged main characters with interesting backstories and personalities that somehow still feel entirely in line with who they were when these characters were relatively minor. It's a shame so many of the characters kinda fell by the wayside after Busiek/Nicieza left. But that seems to have always kinda been the fate of most Thunderbolts. The ones that stuck around were generally those that already had a big presence before they were Thunderbolts (like Zemo), and generally those eventually revert back to their pre-T-bolt identities. I would have loved for Marvel to have given some more love to characters that really got their first opportunity to shine as something other than fodder for Spider-Man and Iron Man or as background characters in the pages of the Thunderbolts. Characters like Joystick, Jolt, Blizzard, Radioactive Man, and Vantage.
I remember my reaction reading that first issue and yes, this was one of the greatest comics of the 90s. What an epic twist! Also, yes, Bagley's work on Spider-Man was fantastic! You are also correct that the later iterations of the Thunderbolts, while entertaining, are essentially Marvel's Suicide Squad and don't have the same impact.
You know what's crazy? Your proposal that a person pretending to do something might fall into it because they are technically doing it for real is how I was convinced to watch the FX show "The Americans" because that's how the showrunner pitched it in pre-premiere interviews. One of the greatest TV shows of all time. Not enough people watched it, but it had an amazing run
Correct. It's a common mistake, since she was the only member to revert to her original name once they were found out (Zemo not included, since he bailed on the team at the time). The rest kept their hero names.
I always think of Dr. Sofen as Moonstone and usually call her that, whether or not she's using that code name. On the other hand, I always think of Melissa Gold as Songbird, even when referencing her villain days.
The MCU made a mistake not doing this version of thunderbolts. Can you imagine the twist ending of issue 1 used on the stinger at the end of it's first movie. You would grab watchers for the next movie. They would be hooked to see what happens next.
Absolutely love Busiek and Bagely's 'Thunderbolts'. I had only just started reading Marvel comics at the time it was released so the twist reveal didn't really register with me, but I quickly fell in love with the series. The newsagent at the shopping centre in town was the only place I could get issues and I remember missing out on #5 because Marvel were doing #-1 flashback issues that month except for a few titles, so the newsagent only got the flashback issue and not #5 as well.
Awesome video! I fell in love with Busiek and Bagley's Thunderbolts early on, so I was able to track all the previous issues of this comic book, and I ended up collecting all the run of the first team, all 75 issues, annuals, spin offs... Fabian Nicieza did an awesome job after Kurt Busiek, and even Mark Bagley, left the title. If someone had ever told me that THE BEETLE would become my favorite Marvel character, I would have denied this with every inch of energy I had. But here we are... Yeah, Thunderbolts after that is in name only. Not speaking about that apparent nonsense of a film we're promised. Thunderbolts wasn't great about just the twist, but with these characters and what they ultimately became.
Thunderbolts was a fantastic book that is the perfect example of a perfect storm of different things happening all at once. The reveal at the end of the issue was great of course. The fact that they managed to incorporate the "deaths" of the Fantastic Four and the Avengers into the story, as the catalyst for the Thunderbolts forming was really clever and made good use of the Onslaught story. The Bolts encountering different heroes and villains during the early issues, all of whom they had relationships with and who the heroes and villains were in the dark about who they were dealing with, made for good reading. It was a really clever concept, executed perfectly, with a great artist on board. What's not to like. I thought it was pretty funny you called Meteorite by her supervillain name, Moonstone, when naming the roster. You just spilled the beans in the first few minutes of the vid. Zemo would be furious.
I think Zemo would be even more furious at the sight of what the Thunderbolts have become (one Suicide Squad ripoff after another). When the group encountered a group of mercenaries using the name "The Masters of Evil", he angrily told them, _"The old Masters - they never were anyone's hirelings, not like you! They were Masters, not slaves! That was the point!"_
The first 75 issues of Thunderbolts is my favourite marvel book of all time. I absolutely fell in love with the characters, Mach-1 and Songbird are my favourite comic book couple, and Zemo is my favourite marvel villain, all because of this book. Really happy to see you giving it some love. Thanks for this one, Chris
Another great video Chris. I loved the original Thunderbolts and hate the fact that they along with the original New Warriors are treated as if they never existed. Also I was shocked at the way they disposed of Thunderbolts member Charcoal over a legal issue. He was a great Thing/Torch combo and could've been one of the greats. I'd love if you could do a video on the subject. Great job again.
Discovering the twist of Thunderbolts in the shop when I went to pick up my weekly books literally made my jaw drop. I am still impressed to this day that they managed to convince Marvel to keep it under wraps until the issue released.
Read that comic in real time, when it was new. Getting to that twist was MIND BLOWING and seeing the former villains fracture as some of them really wanted to turn good was also fantastic. This run was also a major reason for my appreciation for Hawkeye began. The 90s in general were not great for superhero comics, and Marvel in particular, and THUNDERBOLTS was such a great respite. Kurt Busiek is one of the best.
I really loved the post Dark Reign series where they were time traveling. I know it was really plainly Suicide Squad but something about the characters made me really fall in love with them.
Kurt Busiek has a knack of writing really well about superheroes as ordinary and relatable people - see Astro City for more of that. I've got the Thunderbolts volume 1 omni (volume 2 is waiting to be read!) and there are are some stand out issues for me: issue #1 (obvs.!) the introduction of Jolt (issue #4?), #10-#12 where the Avengers and FF return and the T'Bolts true identities are revealed to the world. Annual #1 where Citizen recounts, to Jolt, the story of how he got the team together, but what he describes to her is different to the images we're shown. Also special mention to issue #26 where Mach 1, now in prison, foils a prison riot. It's drawn in a really gritty styles and not like any of the other issues in the run.
As a lover of the Thunderbolts (and I remember having to call a dozen comic book stores here in NYC looking for a copy of that first issue the day it came out!), I do think you gave enough credit to Fabian Nicienza and Patrick Zircher, who took up the book after Busiek and Bagley left. I remember how seamless the transition was, how the quality did not dip at all, and how issues #34-75 did play to Nicienza's particular quirks while also expanding upon and further exploring the themes and characterization that Busiek set up. My favorite bit in that run was Fabian exploring Songbird's personality. After someone decided to pull an X-STATIC on the title with issue #76, the property has never been the same. Oh, and I do remember The Champions...BOY do I remember that title. Somewhere on my hard drive is a podcast where I and FORTRESS OF BAILYTUDE maven Michael Bailey discuss the short lived series that has yet to be completely edited....
There's a slight comeback after whatever that was in 76-81. A few years later there's a 6 issue T-Bolts/Avengers mini co-written by Kurt and Fabian with art by Barry Kitson, then the title is back as New Thunderbolts with Fabian and Tom Grummett. They're on it until the Warren Ellis run.
I would Say that all the run up to 75 Is great especially the double arc becoming Heroes/villains.. And busiek really loved songbird since he added her in his later Avengers Forever miniserie..
Hey Chris, I read Thunderbolts from the first issue. At the time I was mostly reading Vertigo and indie comics, let's just say that I wasn't a superhero fan but as I had enjoyed Astro City and Marvels, I gave this series a try and was pleasantly surprised. This was an enjoyable comic that brought back fun and intrigue. I loved the twists and character arcs and redemptions. I hope the MCU version is inspired by this comic!
The movie doesn't appear to be inspired by this run. From the looks of it Marvel Studios are just taking the Thunderbolts name, tying it to General "Thunderbolt" Ross, and giving it to a team of B-list second stringers. It's really quite disappointing.
Sadly it seems that it'll go more from Norman Osborn's Dark Avengers and Thunderbolt Ross' iteration as "Marvel's Suicide Squad" with a rumored plot sounding a lot like the first Suicide Squad movie.
By 1997 I was done with mainstream comics and was exclusively buying either indies or European graphic novels. I saw Thunderbolts on the shelves but assumed it was Marvel's version of Suicide Squad and didn't bother. The past year I've been "revisiting" all the titles I passed up in the late '90s/2000s, like Thunderbolts in trade paperbacks. Hmm...memories of the '90s!
@@jackdubz4247 What it reminds me of more than anything is Justice League International, heroes with character flaws (like Booster Gold and Guy Gardner). Of course, that may mostly be Harbour's Red Guardian being a dead ringer for Rocket Red #4.
The closest Thunderbolts ever got to going back to their original twist was when Osborn made a lot of them his "Dark" Avengers between Secret Invasion and Siege. At least then they went back to pretending to be heroes behind legit disguises even if they were taking the place of other real heroes rather than being their own. And there was the increased stakes of now they were the Avengers, the bad guys were in control
I read it when it when it first came out and was blown away by the twist. My only regret is I hadn't read the Avengers "Under Siege" storyline first to fully appreciate how ruthless Baron Zemo and his Masters of Evil was. It would have also made some of them trying to redeem themselves even more affecting.
I went to work in the Marketing Dept at Diamond in 1998, and they were all still talking about how difficult it had been to promote Thunderbolts and get shops to order “just another third-tier superteam” without spoiling the twist!
When this came out I was in my mid-20s and was a bit jaded about the industry. It was an absolute breath of fresh air. They took what seemed to be a weakness - the unbelievably generic super-hero team - and turned it on its head with that last page. But it was more than that or it wouldn't have sustained. They moved past the gimmick and fleshed out the characters and delivered a memorable run.
Great vid Chris! I don't think I've seen many videos about the team or its runs on the internet. To add one thing about how they kept the twist secret: The original solicitation text for Hulk 449 gave it away! But Peter David intervened and made the marketing department change it, to preserve Busiek's surprise.
God did I love this book when it came out. Thunderbolts Vol 1 was one of the best twists I ever read from Marvel back in the 90s. It's sad that they've hardly used any of these characters in a long while as of recent. I'd love to see this team dynamic return but I think we might have to count this as a lightning in a bottle moment.
Baron Zemo Jr. Doing a better job at playing hero than Norman Osborn could only dream of! I absolutely love Mark Bagelys work on this series and glad my boy Beetle got to shine once again!
Good video, loved that series when it came out. One nitpick: Moonstone called herself Meteorite in the beginning of the series. Pretty sure she didn't go back to Moonstone until they were outed
I love that all these horrible things the villains had done to The Avengers is capped off by destroying the last surviving photo of Caps mom. Like man even sentimental things aren't safe!? These guys truly are evil!
I agree with this video on every note. This was a true Diamond in Comics of the 90s. Thank you for covering it and slicing out a tasty piece of Nostalgia.
This is the first time I remember seeing Mark Bagley's drawing and understanding who he was. I've always found his drawing kind of fascinating in the way he can making something seem really stylized and realistic at the same time. I agree about Songbird, she was a great character who could be used as an anchor to a lot of good future stories.
Mach (Beetle) became one of my favorite Marvel characters through the Thunderbolts. He went from a B-List villain to someone who actually wants to be a hero.
This shows how out of step I am and have been with comic fans; I actually loved the Champions as a kid and got each one the second they came out. Even thought they'd take the lead and take the spotlight from the Avengers. And when they crossed over into another fav of mine back then, Godzilla, I was in heaven. I even pictured their live movie with Steve Reeves and Diana Riggs and hoped for them Herc/Steve to take on Ferigno-Hulk. And when Black Goliath joined, man was I thrilled (despite the glaring shame of not having him face the King of the Monsters too). I had also expected (no pun intended) big things from him at the time. Still a fond series to reread every now and then. Even though it didn't hold my attention long, Thunderbolts did have some genuinely well written moments, but I came into it after the fact thanks to a 50c or $1 box from a comicstore. So no surprises really by then. I had really like the Swordsman's turning over a new leave and was happy to see some villains that I actually knew try it (having been out of following comics for quite a while by then).
Pretty sure it still holds the record for greatest twist (at least in my book) cause I had no idea what to expect going into it! Thank you for another great vid!
Why this channel isn’t 10x more popular is always perplexing to me. It’s definitely more for the hardcore comic fans but you break it down in a way that is interesting for a casual reader . Keep up the good work!
I was in elementary school when this series started. My mind was blown when I got to that final page. I definitely didn't see that coming, especially considering there was so much T bolts merch (cards, activity books, etc.) I truly believed that after Onslaught the Avengers were gone and Marvel was truly replacing them.
It’s a great example of a book that came at exactly the right time. Onslaught had completely decimated reader interest, and Thunderbolts took Onslaught and essentially used it to springboard into a good story. Love it!
Great video! I really enjoyed the Thunderbolts back then, but I did have a few notes: first, you mentioned that Masters of Evil hadn't been used in about 9 years before debuting as the Thunderbolts, but a version of the team, with Dr. Octopus and a slightly different roster had fought against a time-displaced Guardians of the Galaxy during one of the Infinity Crossovers of the early 90's. Different members and leader, but same team name. Also, I would argue that Busiek was already on a lot of reader's radars due to the Marvels miniseries with Alex Ross. Other than that, excellent coverage of a great team book! Thanks!
Loved your blooper reel,.. i dropped out of reading comics in Feb of 96 or so, so ive never been informed on Thunderbolts. Thanks Chris. Good info before movie/series arrives.
That original run of Thunderbolts was excellent. I was only just getting into comics when it came out and would read Wizard religiously to help solidify my understanding of Marvel/DC continuity so it made the twist hit much harder. After that I would follow it on and off and I would say the only real stuff that came close was the post Civil War run that Ellis did, he really focused on the psychological depths of the characters even bringing in Doc Sampson.
I will say I always assumed the Thunderbolts was just Marvel's answers to Suicide Squad. but it seems to have a bit more interesting start then i would have guessed. A real shame we don't see them much of them outside of the comics. I know most of my familiarly with them was from the sparse game appearances. I can definitely see a pretty cool show coming from them. especially if they in lean into them secretly being villains in the beginning.
I started reading Thunderbolts when it came out it in the Heroic Age with Luke Cage leading it. That to me was such a great run and utilized various villains.
In the early early 90's Bags was my absolute favorite artist ever, before the image days came on, and Campbell's art blew me away, before he became a one trick ponly and started to draw every character the same way, but Mark always kept my interest with his work, specially when he was on Spider-Man, and i'm not even talking about ultimate, because that never tickled me enough. Never touched Thunderbolts though, not sure if i would have gotten the jist of it growing up, but it sure does sound intriguing.
I still recall flipping through the first issue in a store as was a fan of Bags artwork since New Warriors. I was so floored by the twist, I set the comic back on the rack and headed out to do something else and never got the issue. One of my biggest regrets in comic buying. I jumped back on about issue 6 or so and remained on up until 'Fight bolts'. I would argue the hand off to Fabs continued things nicely and kept the ride going. If you want to look at the legacy of Thunderbolts, Songbird has shown up in a few animated versions and I would argue that Zemo in the MCU pulls a lot of the traits of T-Bolts era Zemo.
I read this run a few years ago and loved it, even knowing the twist before going in. It made me a Kurt Busiek fan and I immediately started his Avengers run after it. I think Warren Ellis’ oh so brief run was also excellent during Civil War.
Never read the original Thunderbolts, I wasn't that into the Avengers-part of Marvel at the time and not a fan of Bagley's art. But brilliant concept, and fascinating to see how well they pulled it off. It was a really good idea to reveal the twist at the end of the first book - the equivalent of showing the audience the ticking bomb beneath the table, and allowing the readers to get to know the characters properly. It was clearly an inspiration for Bendis' Dark Avengers as well - including Moonstone in that roster was clearly an acknowledgement of that fact.
I remember emember reading this "live" when it happened after Onslaught. You just don't get unspoiled moments long that in this day and age! *Edit* You called Meteorite "Moonstone" at about 05:00. Minor mistake. I don't want to come off as a "Well, actually..." guy. This channel along with about two others are, in my opinion, the absolute best comic discussion channels on RUclips. Thanks for the years of entertainment!
I remember in the fall of 1996, I was in high school and in my local comic shop and flipping through a copy Thunderbolts 1. I was reading Hulk at the time because of Peter David and remember the team being introduced, but wasn't impressed. Fast forward to me thumbing over to the last page, being shocked and adding it to my weekly stack. I followed the book for a year before I stopped reading comics when my shop closed down and I was in college. The twist of using villains masquerading as heroes was an incredibly well-kept secret.
I love the thunderbolts that 97 series was a diamond in the rough busiek is so underated as a writer his thunderbolts and avengers books as well as astro city and the atumnlands are masterpieces
I remember The Champions. Marvel released a trade paperback collection of the short-lived series. It was similar to DC's "Batman and the Outsiders." "Heroes defending the common man" I believe was their selling point...
The entire Busiek/Bagely run is collected in one omnibus. One of my most favorite reads. One the few times I finished an omnibus within the same week I opened it.
Just been reading the run now actually cause of the video you did on Kurt busiek and I love it thanks for the recommendation and for doing a video on the run itself!
I've been following Jim Zub's current Thunderbolts run because I'm a huge fan of a lot of the character's featured, but now I gotta read the original.I remember Busieks writing being a little too dense for me when I tried Avengers Forever, but I'll give it another shot.
Avengers Forever is Busiek at his absolute densest, it's his League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and I love it for what it is but it's definitely not representative of his strongest work. Thunderbolts has much more room to breathe - there are still plenty of reinventions and retcons and bringing back obscure lore, but much more slowly and never takes over the whole book, the book itself is all about solid character work and fun, straightforward stories with just enough twist to be exciting.
I'd argue the whole run is up there with the best team books Marvel has published. Fabien Nicieza really picked up where Busiek left off and kept delivering month after month. I re-read the first two volumes of Omnibus Marvel put out recently and eagerly awaiting Vol.3. I agree the later iterations of the team suffered from diminishing returns. And yes, I do remember the Champions. The book ran into a lot of production issues if I remember rightly. It might have worked in the right hands, but man was it inconsistent.
Back in 2016-2017 when they had Zemo and Vulture survive Captain America: Civil War and Spider-Man: Homecoming, I was sure that the Avengers would mostly die in Infinity War / Endgame, other villains would survive in the next couple of movies, and they'd do a Thunderbolts movie after that. I was bummed they didn't go for that.
Instead they're going by a whole super soldier team (sans Ghost, and powerless Black Widow and Valentina de Fontaine) that their plot sounds awfully similar to David Ayer's Suicide Squad (with Sentry or Ikaris as the traitor team mate) or a plot about looking for Adamantium from the half Celestial that stayed in the ocean that way.
I was hoping for that as well. Before they announced the roster, the Thunderbolts movie was the only phase 5 movie announced that I was actually looking forward to, as I was hoping they'd go the route of Zemo recruiting most of the surviving villains. The saddest part is that there are just enough surviving MCU villains that they could've gone that route: Zemo, Abomination, Ghost, Vulture and Justin Hammer makes five; enough for a team.
It surprises me that Marvel's Freedom Force (aka Mystique's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants) did villains working for the government even before DC's Suicide Squad, but I don't think they ever got a series of their own. That'd be an interesting rabbit hole to go down by itself.
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I have an idea for a video
"The impact of Bruce Timm in the world of animation"
Looks very good. Lots of replay value.
it funny that thunderbolts was created because of the disaster 1996 "Onslaught" crossover which lead to heroes reborn!
Glad you're getting the sponsorships! Maybe there's a good crossover episode with this sponsor about Star Trek comics.
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I loved Kurt Busiek's line: "You see a lot of books talking about the seduction of evil but this was the first to talk about the seduction of good."
Where did he say that?
It's a great line, and I'd love to cite it in an essay or something.
@@daelen.cclark He was quoting what a fan told him in an old Wizard magazine article.
@@Anynom
Wow. That’s quite well said.
That page needs to be brought online somewhere just so people can cite it.
It's what made the Thunderbolts a really unique team but Marvel nowadays for some reason likes to make them their Suicide Squad.
Why are you so obsessed with getting the proper citation for this? Are you doing a research paper on Thunderbolts?
Another reason I think they work as a SuperHero Team concept is that they already worked as a Villain Team before changing their identities.
And the absence of such experience is why I was already remembering the Chump... er, Champions before he even finished the phrase "completely forgettable"!
@@kenlieck7756 Nuts. That book was a fun read in the same way Defenders was. Both had that "random team of oddballs fighting gonzo villains" vibe throughout. And if weren't for them, we wouldn't have Swarm, comic's only Nazi made of bees.
@@richmcgee434 Actually I don't disagree with you -- but it is a fact that before he finished his sentence, my first thought was "The Champions"!
(And I can't prove it, but surely there's other apian-oriented Aryan antagonists out there somewhere, just as I know where to find Zzyyxx, the other elf besides Relf and Melf who carries a gun.)
Sieg Hive!
@@kenlieck7756 Everybody remembers Melf, Relf and Zzyyxx, no one remembers Lusiphur. I guess Poison Elves was a little niche... :)
This logic is, I think, at least marginally circular. It works as a team because it worked as a team: you know
I loved how the Busiek era explored the "seduction of the light side" for a change. Doing good and being rewarded for it is a powerful incentive to change for the better.
Great point
I love the OG Thunderbolts. Seeing these villains pretending to be heroes and some of them realizing that was all they ever wanted and going all in on being heroes was great.
I love the way he says "Marvel just had an event" [3:21] in the
same tone as you'd say "the dog just took a dump on the rug."
That was such a nonchalant delivery, like "another Marvel event" was "meh."
That's the amount of excitement that the Onslaught event deserves. A great concept that was executed poorly.
@@scottwagner2566 The very reason I snubbed the original *"Infinity Saga"* from the 90s. As far as I'm concerned, the 1984 12 issue *"Secret Wars"* is the ONLY Marvel event that truly mattered.
@@56postoffice I had to check out anything with Jim Starlin's name on it. That outweighs what I might think of Marvel's "events" in general.
Btw, here in Texas we know it's only an event if it involves a fantastic deal on the new model years trucks!
@@56postoffice you're definitely missing out. Infinity Gauntlet is so fun and features incredible art. Don't sleep on it. Age of Apocalypse is also a ton of fun. That said, I think events should rarely happen.
I remember loving 'Thunderbolts' back in the 90s. I particularly enjoyed a crossover with Spider-Man in which Spidey's enthused to be working with these new heroes and Mach-1 is finding it very awkward due to the number of times he fought Spider-Man as The Beetle. Brilliant bit of subtle character work.
Original "Thunderbolts" run was a WONDERFUL change of pace and a breath of fresh are when it came out. The twist of taking the Masters of Evil taking on new identities and pretending to be heroes was just the icing on the cake. Busiek's obvious love for comics was a stark contrast to the deconstructionist mentality that was dominating the industry. Lots of writers love comics, but Busiek is one of those rare writers who just GETS it. I'll buy anything with his name on it.
I got this book in Italian about a year after it's original publication (there was a 10-13 months delay due to translation) and it was a insane.
Granted, internet was nowhere near as big as it is today, but the fact that Marvel Italia was able to keep to lid on the pot for another year was huge.
I remember being hyped by this new super team when I was in high school post-Onslaught. That first issue reveal blew me and my comic-reading friends away at the time. Definitely one of the greatest comic twists of all time.
I followed the book for years after, but nothing past that Busiek run ever captured the magic quite the same way again.
I felt at the time the twist came too quick.
@@davidlloren The reasoning was probably they didn't know how long they could keep it going, and it would require them hiding parts about the characters and make them less interesting. I mean from what I read it almost got released in the Hulk Issue they were in that was released before their first comic, so they probably wanted to get out the surprise before it was ruined.
Brilliant series. After Busiek left the book, Fabian Nicieza took over for 40-some issues and the book was still great. For new readers, there are several recent softcovers collecting ALL of Busiek’s run and the first bit of Nicieza’s. Marvel just came out with an Omnibus line for this series, too.
Came to say exactly this: Fabian Nicieza's run was excellent and very faithful to Busiek's vision (kept twists and team dynamics changing), but after those two, all other thunderbolts runs fell short and it never felt like the same team again.
@Tennislove88 I feel the same way. Nothing recaptured the feel those two runs had. Ellis's run was alright, but it definitely felt like something very different. I love the late 90s Heroes return era.
I liked the Jeff Parker run, but it was definitely a different vibe from the original.
Hard disagree with that one. I remember sticking with the series out of loyalty, but the counter-earth stuff was real rough to push through. I was kind of relieved when the series took a break to become a totally unrelated story about a fight club.
The biggest problem is that most of the characters had their "bad guys become heroes" arc finished already. The book just kept inventing nonsense drama to keep them together and it all went nowhere.
Thunderbolts is my favourite team book of all time. It's always good to see it revived in many different forms.
Ooh awesome
To bad that the concept of the team has devolved from a team of reformed villains becoming heroes and doing good things of their own volition into instead being a wannabe Suicide Squad (an irritating status quo that was kicked off by, what else, Civil War).
@@dakotanelson8523 yea they never really beat those allegations. Though I am actually a big fan of the Luke Cage era.
I was a huge fan of the original Thunderbolts and fell off following every single version. BUT, I do like how they don't roll the same story and concept over and over.
@@dakotanelson8523 indeed
The best plot twist in comics... ever.
Thanks for being one of the only few comic book RUclipsrs that at least talk about how good they are instead of the bad.
I just started reading thunderbolts so this video couldn't have come at a better time
Couldn't have come at a better time to spoil the twist?
@@noneofyourbusiness4616 i knew the twist cuz i watched the Mark Bagley video before this one.
I actually bought the omnibus from my LCS which collects the first 30 issues, the annual and 1st appearance in Hulk. It was excellent and the rare omnibus I actually finished.
I remember when Mark Bagley had his Spider-Man run, he didn't get the respect that he was due, mainly because he was in the shadows of Todd McFarlane and Erik Larsen, both of whom jumped ship to start Image, and had their mega-successful titles.
I think Thunderbolts was when Bagley finally started getting respect as an artist, which is sad, because this was the time when I stopped reading comics.
I still pick up an occasional comic from time to time, so I might give this a shot.
Well said!
didn't get due respect? they got him to draw a whole card set, gave him a new Spider-Man comic to do from scratch, Bagley is the best damn Spider-Man artist ever
Funny how he’s now imo the best modern Spider-Man artist. No one is better. Especially the run on Ultimate which basically cemented Bagley as a legend.
It boggles my mind that the MCU is going to bring Thunderbolts to the screen as a cheap knockoff of Suicide Squad. Imagine if it had been the first movie after Endgame featuring a team of new "heroes" with this twist at the end. It could have been such a great start to a new wave of movies.
I think james gunn want to make a Thunderbolts moviet too.
I loved the original run of the Thunderbolts. When the team was first introduced it was a rare bright spot in an otherwise very dark Marvel Universe, post-Onslaught/Clone Saga/the Crossing/outsourced Avengers and FF books (in short: Marvel's mid-90s identity crisis). It was such a shame to see the book never really receive the love it deserved, although at least it went out with a bang (the Avengers vs the Thunderbolts crossover). Then when New Thunderbolts debuted a few years later, it became my safe haven once again in a Marvel Universe that seemed overrun by Bendises (made the Avengers an utter drag to read and didn't "get" what the book was all about), Millars (too dark), and Brubakers (again too dark, and just not fun).
New Thunderbolts, with Fabian Nicieza at the helm was one of the few books in 2005 to capture everything I loved about comic books: good stories that were engaging and involved, but also FUN, plot hooks that had me looking forward to the next issue each and every time (who was this new Swordsman? What is going on with Genis-Vell?), and character dynamics that left me hungry for more after each issue to see where they would go (Joystick was awesome almost reminding me of Mark Gruenwald-era Diamondback at times, the Speed Demon/Blizzard rivalry was great and I was really hoping Blizzard, arguably the biggest babyface on the team, would eventually get his comeuppance against the team's greatest heel, Speed Demon).
Both Busiek and Nicieza are just awesome at taking relatively minor characters from Marvel history, and expanding them into full fledged main characters with interesting backstories and personalities that somehow still feel entirely in line with who they were when these characters were relatively minor. It's a shame so many of the characters kinda fell by the wayside after Busiek/Nicieza left. But that seems to have always kinda been the fate of most Thunderbolts. The ones that stuck around were generally those that already had a big presence before they were Thunderbolts (like Zemo), and generally those eventually revert back to their pre-T-bolt identities. I would have loved for Marvel to have given some more love to characters that really got their first opportunity to shine as something other than fodder for Spider-Man and Iron Man or as background characters in the pages of the Thunderbolts. Characters like Joystick, Jolt, Blizzard, Radioactive Man, and Vantage.
I really think Mach-1/Bettle is pretty Overlooked, I really enjoyed his growth during this series
I remember my reaction reading that first issue and yes, this was one of the greatest comics of the 90s. What an epic twist! Also, yes, Bagley's work on Spider-Man was fantastic! You are also correct that the later iterations of the Thunderbolts, while entertaining, are essentially Marvel's Suicide Squad and don't have the same impact.
You know what's crazy? Your proposal that a person pretending to do something might fall into it because they are technically doing it for real is how I was convinced to watch the FX show "The Americans" because that's how the showrunner pitched it in pre-premiere interviews. One of the greatest TV shows of all time. Not enough people watched it, but it had an amazing run
Moonstone was called Meteorite when she was in the Thunderbolts.
I'm happy for you you have a sponsor now. Good work.
Correct. It's a common mistake, since she was the only member to revert to her original name once they were found out (Zemo not included, since he bailed on the team at the time). The rest kept their hero names.
I always think of Dr. Sofen as Moonstone and usually call her that, whether or not she's using that code name. On the other hand, I always think of Melissa Gold as Songbird, even when referencing her villain days.
The MCU made a mistake not doing this version of thunderbolts. Can you imagine the twist ending of issue 1 used on the stinger at the end of it's first movie. You would grab watchers for the next movie. They would be hooked to see what happens next.
The twist would be harder to hide for a film since films have cast lists, but I agree that the MCU should've adapted this version of Thunderbolts.
Would work better as a tv show
Fantastic episode, Chris. It's always a great treat when a new CT episode goes online.
Absolutely love Busiek and Bagely's 'Thunderbolts'. I had only just started reading Marvel comics at the time it was released so the twist reveal didn't really register with me, but I quickly fell in love with the series. The newsagent at the shopping centre in town was the only place I could get issues and I remember missing out on #5 because Marvel were doing #-1 flashback issues that month except for a few titles, so the newsagent only got the flashback issue and not #5 as well.
Awesome video! I fell in love with Busiek and Bagley's Thunderbolts early on, so I was able to track all the previous issues of this comic book, and I ended up collecting all the run of the first team, all 75 issues, annuals, spin offs... Fabian Nicieza did an awesome job after Kurt Busiek, and even Mark Bagley, left the title. If someone had ever told me that THE BEETLE would become my favorite Marvel character, I would have denied this with every inch of energy I had. But here we are...
Yeah, Thunderbolts after that is in name only. Not speaking about that apparent nonsense of a film we're promised. Thunderbolts wasn't great about just the twist, but with these characters and what they ultimately became.
Thunderbolts was a fantastic book that is the perfect example of a perfect storm of different things happening all at once. The reveal at the end of the issue was great of course. The fact that they managed to incorporate the "deaths" of the Fantastic Four and the Avengers into the story, as the catalyst for the Thunderbolts forming was really clever and made good use of the Onslaught story.
The Bolts encountering different heroes and villains during the early issues, all of whom they had relationships with and who the heroes and villains were in the dark about who they were dealing with, made for good reading. It was a really clever concept, executed perfectly, with a great artist on board. What's not to like.
I thought it was pretty funny you called Meteorite by her supervillain name, Moonstone, when naming the roster. You just spilled the beans in the first few minutes of the vid. Zemo would be furious.
I think Zemo would be even more furious at the sight of what the Thunderbolts have become (one Suicide Squad ripoff after another). When the group encountered a group of mercenaries using the name "The Masters of Evil", he angrily told them, _"The old Masters - they never were anyone's hirelings, not like you! They were Masters, not slaves! That was the point!"_
The first 75 issues of Thunderbolts is my favourite marvel book of all time. I absolutely fell in love with the characters, Mach-1 and Songbird are my favourite comic book couple, and Zemo is my favourite marvel villain, all because of this book. Really happy to see you giving it some love. Thanks for this one, Chris
Another great video Chris. I loved the original Thunderbolts and hate the fact that they along with the original New Warriors are treated as if they never existed. Also I was shocked at the way they disposed of Thunderbolts member Charcoal over a legal issue. He was a great Thing/Torch combo and could've been one of the greats. I'd love if you could do a video on the subject. Great job again.
Totally agree, Chris! Loved the Thunderbolts... it WAS great! Hope you're well, fella. All the best! :)
The original thunderbolts is such a classic in my opinion.
Discovering the twist of Thunderbolts in the shop when I went to pick up my weekly books literally made my jaw drop. I am still impressed to this day that they managed to convince Marvel to keep it under wraps until the issue released.
I love it when one of these videos actually sends me out in search of a book.
Read that comic in real time, when it was new. Getting to that twist was MIND BLOWING and seeing the former villains fracture as some of them really wanted to turn good was also fantastic. This run was also a major reason for my appreciation for Hawkeye began. The 90s in general were not great for superhero comics, and Marvel in particular, and THUNDERBOLTS was such a great respite. Kurt Busiek is one of the best.
I really loved the post Dark Reign series where they were time traveling. I know it was really plainly Suicide Squad but something about the characters made me really fall in love with them.
Kurt Busiek has a knack of writing really well about superheroes as ordinary and relatable people - see Astro City for more of that. I've got the Thunderbolts volume 1 omni (volume 2 is waiting to be read!) and there are are some stand out issues for me: issue #1 (obvs.!) the introduction of Jolt (issue #4?), #10-#12 where the Avengers and FF return and the T'Bolts true identities are revealed to the world. Annual #1 where Citizen recounts, to Jolt, the story of how he got the team together, but what he describes to her is different to the images we're shown. Also special mention to issue #26 where Mach 1, now in prison, foils a prison riot. It's drawn in a really gritty styles and not like any of the other issues in the run.
Hell yeah thanks Chris, and congratulations on the sponsor
OG Busiek Thunderbolts was good, though I actually liked Fabian Ninieza's run too. His 'reforming' of ZEMO of all people was interesting. Anyway...
I remember audibly going "WHOAAAaaaa!" in Krogers reading that as a kid in the 90s.
As a lover of the Thunderbolts (and I remember having to call a dozen comic book stores here in NYC looking for a copy of that first issue the day it came out!), I do think you gave enough credit to Fabian Nicienza and Patrick Zircher, who took up the book after Busiek and Bagley left. I remember how seamless the transition was, how the quality did not dip at all, and how issues #34-75 did play to Nicienza's particular quirks while also expanding upon and further exploring the themes and characterization that Busiek set up. My favorite bit in that run was Fabian exploring Songbird's personality. After someone decided to pull an X-STATIC on the title with issue #76, the property has never been the same.
Oh, and I do remember The Champions...BOY do I remember that title. Somewhere on my hard drive is a podcast where I and FORTRESS OF BAILYTUDE maven Michael Bailey discuss the short lived series that has yet to be completely edited....
It was still a solid book, but of course some of the new directions may be left up to individual preference by then.
There's a slight comeback after whatever that was in 76-81. A few years later there's a 6 issue T-Bolts/Avengers mini co-written by Kurt and Fabian with art by Barry Kitson, then the title is back as New Thunderbolts with Fabian and Tom Grummett. They're on it until the Warren Ellis run.
Thunderbolts cemented my love of the Marvel Universe. It was so great and I’m so glad you did this retrospective.
I would Say that all the run up to 75 Is great especially the double arc becoming Heroes/villains..
And busiek really loved songbird since he added her in his later Avengers Forever miniserie..
Hey Chris, I read Thunderbolts from the first issue. At the time I was mostly reading Vertigo and indie comics, let's just say that I wasn't a superhero fan but as I had enjoyed Astro City and Marvels, I gave this series a try and was pleasantly surprised.
This was an enjoyable comic that brought back fun and intrigue. I loved the twists and character arcs and redemptions.
I hope the MCU version is inspired by this comic!
The movie doesn't appear to be inspired by this run. From the looks of it Marvel Studios are just taking the Thunderbolts name, tying it to General "Thunderbolt" Ross, and giving it to a team of B-list second stringers. It's really quite disappointing.
Sadly it seems that it'll go more from Norman Osborn's Dark Avengers and Thunderbolt Ross' iteration as "Marvel's Suicide Squad" with a rumored plot sounding a lot like the first Suicide Squad movie.
@@jackdubz4247 Definitely disappointing, but that's what Disney-Marvel Studios does best.
By 1997 I was done with mainstream comics and was exclusively buying either indies or European graphic novels. I saw Thunderbolts on the shelves but assumed it was Marvel's version of Suicide Squad and didn't bother. The past year I've been "revisiting" all the titles I passed up in the late '90s/2000s, like Thunderbolts in trade paperbacks. Hmm...memories of the '90s!
@@jackdubz4247 What it reminds me of more than anything is Justice League International, heroes with character flaws (like Booster Gold and Guy Gardner). Of course, that may mostly be Harbour's Red Guardian being a dead ringer for Rocket Red #4.
The closest Thunderbolts ever got to going back to their original twist was when Osborn made a lot of them his "Dark" Avengers between Secret Invasion and Siege. At least then they went back to pretending to be heroes behind legit disguises even if they were taking the place of other real heroes rather than being their own. And there was the increased stakes of now they were the Avengers, the bad guys were in control
I read it when it when it first came out and was blown away by the twist. My only regret is I hadn't read the Avengers "Under Siege" storyline first to fully appreciate how ruthless Baron Zemo and his Masters of Evil was. It would have also made some of them trying to redeem themselves even more affecting.
I went to work in the Marketing Dept at Diamond in 1998, and they were all still talking about how difficult it had been to promote Thunderbolts and get shops to order “just another third-tier superteam” without spoiling the twist!
When this came out I was in my mid-20s and was a bit jaded about the industry. It was an absolute breath of fresh air. They took what seemed to be a weakness - the unbelievably generic super-hero team - and turned it on its head with that last page. But it was more than that or it wouldn't have sustained. They moved past the gimmick and fleshed out the characters and delivered a memorable run.
still my childhood fav-- thanks so much for covering t-bolts!
Congrats on getting a sponsor! Also the first run of thunderbolts is great, i loved the way they turned zemo into v
Great vid Chris! I don't think I've seen many videos about the team or its runs on the internet. To add one thing about how they kept the twist secret: The original solicitation text for Hulk 449 gave it away! But Peter David intervened and made the marketing department change it, to preserve Busiek's surprise.
God did I love this book when it came out. Thunderbolts Vol 1 was one of the best twists I ever read from Marvel back in the 90s. It's sad that they've hardly used any of these characters in a long while as of recent. I'd love to see this team dynamic return but I think we might have to count this as a lightning in a bottle moment.
I love the first run of the Thunderbolts! It remains one of the greatest Marvel twist of all time. I love reading the Omnibus of Thunderbolts.
Remember buying that comic and talking about it to my friends. That one went under the radar of a lot of folks. Really good episode Chris!
Baron Zemo Jr. Doing a better job at playing hero than Norman Osborn could only dream of! I absolutely love Mark Bagelys work on this series and glad my boy Beetle got to shine once again!
Good video, loved that series when it came out. One nitpick: Moonstone called herself Meteorite in the beginning of the series. Pretty sure she didn't go back to Moonstone until they were outed
I love that all these horrible things the villains had done to The Avengers is capped off by destroying the last surviving photo of Caps mom. Like man even sentimental things aren't safe!? These guys truly are evil!
I agree with this video on every note. This was a true Diamond in Comics of the 90s. Thank you for covering it and slicing out a tasty piece of Nostalgia.
This is the first time I remember seeing Mark Bagley's drawing and understanding who he was. I've always found his drawing kind of fascinating in the way he can making something seem really stylized and realistic at the same time. I agree about Songbird, she was a great character who could be used as an anchor to a lot of good future stories.
Mach (Beetle) became one of my favorite Marvel characters through the Thunderbolts. He went from a B-List villain to someone who actually wants to be a hero.
This shows how out of step I am and have been with comic fans; I actually loved the Champions as a kid and got each one the second they came out. Even thought they'd take the lead and take the spotlight from the Avengers. And when they crossed over into another fav of mine back then, Godzilla, I was in heaven. I even pictured their live movie with Steve Reeves and Diana Riggs and hoped for them Herc/Steve to take on Ferigno-Hulk. And when Black Goliath joined, man was I thrilled (despite the glaring shame of not having him face the King of the Monsters too). I had also expected (no pun intended) big things from him at the time. Still a fond series to reread every now and then. Even though it didn't hold my attention long, Thunderbolts did have some genuinely well written moments, but I came into it after the fact thanks to a 50c or $1 box from a comicstore. So no surprises really by then. I had really like the Swordsman's turning over a new leave and was happy to see some villains that I actually knew try it (having been out of following comics for quite a while by then).
Pretty sure it still holds the record for greatest twist (at least in my book) cause I had no idea what to expect going into it! Thank you for another great vid!
That Jeff Parker run is one of my favorite runs of all time. Top 10 for me. Highly recommend.
Why this channel isn’t 10x more popular is always perplexing to me. It’s definitely more for the hardcore comic fans but you break it down in a way that is interesting for a casual reader . Keep up the good work!
I was in elementary school when this series started. My mind was blown when I got to that final page. I definitely didn't see that coming, especially considering there was so much T bolts merch (cards, activity books, etc.) I truly believed that after Onslaught the Avengers were gone and Marvel was truly replacing them.
It’s a great example of a book that came at exactly the right time. Onslaught had completely decimated reader interest, and Thunderbolts took Onslaught and essentially used it to springboard into a good story. Love it!
Great video! I really enjoyed the Thunderbolts back then, but I did have a few notes: first, you mentioned that Masters of Evil hadn't been used in about 9 years before debuting as the Thunderbolts, but a version of the team, with Dr. Octopus and a slightly different roster had fought against a time-displaced Guardians of the Galaxy during one of the Infinity Crossovers of the early 90's. Different members and leader, but same team name. Also, I would argue that Busiek was already on a lot of reader's radars due to the Marvels miniseries with Alex Ross. Other than that, excellent coverage of a great team book! Thanks!
To me, Kurt Busiek became a superstar writer on Avengers with George Perez. I loved that comic.
Loved your blooper reel,.. i dropped out of reading comics in Feb of 96 or so, so ive never been informed on Thunderbolts. Thanks Chris. Good info before movie/series arrives.
That original run of Thunderbolts was excellent. I was only just getting into comics when it came out and would read Wizard religiously to help solidify my understanding of Marvel/DC continuity so it made the twist hit much harder. After that I would follow it on and off and I would say the only real stuff that came close was the post Civil War run that Ellis did, he really focused on the psychological depths of the characters even bringing in Doc Sampson.
I will say I always assumed the Thunderbolts was just Marvel's answers to Suicide Squad. but it seems to have a bit more interesting start then i would have guessed. A real shame we don't see them much of them outside of the comics. I know most of my familiarly with them was from the sparse game appearances. I can definitely see a pretty cool show coming from them. especially if they in lean into them secretly being villains in the beginning.
It sort is in later run. I think when Warren Ellis took
I started reading Thunderbolts when it came out it in the Heroic Age with Luke Cage leading it. That to me was such a great run and utilized various villains.
One of my favorite books ever. Fun fact, one of my old co-workers created a Thunderbolts character, Charcoal.
In the early early 90's Bags was my absolute favorite artist ever, before the image days came on, and Campbell's art blew me away, before he became a one trick ponly and started to draw every character the same way,
but Mark always kept my interest with his work, specially when he was on Spider-Man, and i'm not even talking about ultimate, because that never tickled me enough.
Never touched Thunderbolts though, not sure if i would have gotten the jist of it growing up, but it sure does sound intriguing.
Yeah I remember Thunderbolts, such great idea.
I still recall flipping through the first issue in a store as was a fan of Bags artwork since New Warriors. I was so floored by the twist, I set the comic back on the rack and headed out to do something else and never got the issue. One of my biggest regrets in comic buying. I jumped back on about issue 6 or so and remained on up until 'Fight bolts'.
I would argue the hand off to Fabs continued things nicely and kept the ride going. If you want to look at the legacy of Thunderbolts, Songbird has shown up in a few animated versions and I would argue that Zemo in the MCU pulls a lot of the traits of T-Bolts era Zemo.
I read this run a few years ago and loved it, even knowing the twist before going in. It made me a Kurt Busiek fan and I immediately started his Avengers run after it. I think Warren Ellis’ oh so brief run was also excellent during Civil War.
Never read the original Thunderbolts, I wasn't that into the Avengers-part of Marvel at the time and not a fan of Bagley's art. But brilliant concept, and fascinating to see how well they pulled it off. It was a really good idea to reveal the twist at the end of the first book - the equivalent of showing the audience the ticking bomb beneath the table, and allowing the readers to get to know the characters properly. It was clearly an inspiration for Bendis' Dark Avengers as well - including Moonstone in that roster was clearly an acknowledgement of that fact.
I remember emember reading this "live" when it happened after Onslaught. You just don't get unspoiled moments long that in this day and age!
*Edit* You called Meteorite "Moonstone" at about 05:00. Minor mistake. I don't want to come off as a "Well, actually..." guy. This channel along with about two others are, in my opinion, the absolute best comic discussion channels on RUclips.
Thanks for the years of entertainment!
I remember in the fall of 1996, I was in high school and in my local comic shop and flipping through a copy Thunderbolts 1. I was reading Hulk at the time because of Peter David and remember the team being introduced, but wasn't impressed. Fast forward to me thumbing over to the last page, being shocked and adding it to my weekly stack. I followed the book for a year before I stopped reading comics when my shop closed down and I was in college. The twist of using villains masquerading as heroes was an incredibly well-kept secret.
I love the thunderbolts that 97 series was a diamond in the rough busiek is so underated as a writer his thunderbolts and avengers books as well as astro city and the atumnlands are masterpieces
Avengers under siege is my all time favourite Avengers arc.
Please consider doing a review of it in the future please.
I remember The Champions. Marvel released a trade paperback collection of the short-lived series. It was similar to DC's "Batman and the Outsiders." "Heroes defending the common man" I believe was their selling point...
I just reread the first volume of the original run last year. So much fun!
I recently read Busiek’s run in the Omnibus that was released. Great stuff that made him one of my favourite comic writers.
I picked up that issue solely because of Busiek and I still remember the shock I got reading that last few pages all these years later.
One of the few comics that genuinely surprised me!
I started collecting regularly when this came out, but never got around to this title. Thanks for the recap!
This book is the reason Songbird is one of my favourite characters! I wish we got more of her nowadays.
Even though I read this comic in the late 2000s I didn't know the twist and it blew my mind
The entire Busiek/Bagely run is collected in one omnibus. One of my most favorite reads. One the few times I finished an omnibus within the same week I opened it.
Just been reading the run now actually cause of the video you did on Kurt busiek and I love it thanks for the recommendation and for doing a video on the run itself!
I've been following Jim Zub's current Thunderbolts run because I'm a huge fan of a lot of the character's featured, but now I gotta read the original.I remember Busieks writing being a little too dense for me when I tried Avengers Forever, but I'll give it another shot.
Avengers Forever is Busiek at his absolute densest, it's his League of Extraordinary Gentlemen and I love it for what it is but it's definitely not representative of his strongest work. Thunderbolts has much more room to breathe - there are still plenty of reinventions and retcons and bringing back obscure lore, but much more slowly and never takes over the whole book, the book itself is all about solid character work and fun, straightforward stories with just enough twist to be exciting.
I'd argue the whole run is up there with the best team books Marvel has published. Fabien Nicieza really picked up where Busiek left off and kept delivering month after month. I re-read the first two volumes of Omnibus Marvel put out recently and eagerly awaiting Vol.3. I agree the later iterations of the team suffered from diminishing returns. And yes, I do remember the Champions. The book ran into a lot of production issues if I remember rightly. It might have worked in the right hands, but man was it inconsistent.
Back in 2016-2017 when they had Zemo and Vulture survive Captain America: Civil War and Spider-Man: Homecoming, I was sure that the Avengers would mostly die in Infinity War / Endgame, other villains would survive in the next couple of movies, and they'd do a Thunderbolts movie after that. I was bummed they didn't go for that.
Instead they're going by a whole super soldier team (sans Ghost, and powerless Black Widow and Valentina de Fontaine) that their plot sounds awfully similar to David Ayer's Suicide Squad (with Sentry or Ikaris as the traitor team mate) or a plot about looking for Adamantium from the half Celestial that stayed in the ocean that way.
I was hoping for that as well. Before they announced the roster, the Thunderbolts movie was the only phase 5 movie announced that I was actually looking forward to, as I was hoping they'd go the route of Zemo recruiting most of the surviving villains.
The saddest part is that there are just enough surviving MCU villains that they could've gone that route: Zemo, Abomination, Ghost, Vulture and Justin Hammer makes five; enough for a team.
Thunder bolts vo1 initial run was comics gold. It's a great run & one of the last good ones. 👍
I consider this book to be a shining light in the dark age that was the Nineties.
I’ve loved every version of Thunderbolts. Sure, sometimes things didn’t work so well, but there was always something that made me keep coming back
It surprises me that Marvel's Freedom Force (aka Mystique's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants) did villains working for the government even before DC's Suicide Squad, but I don't think they ever got a series of their own. That'd be an interesting rabbit hole to go down by itself.
I’ve never been so happy to see ads on a video. I’m glad it’s working out.