This. I get two nights, one is after work to game. I can knock out 2-3 games of warcry in that night as opposed to 1 full sized wargame. 1 full sized wargame is also just mentally and physically exhausting after a full day of work. Then it's much cheaper too because we split boxes amongst our local group to make it cheaper for everyone to play.
Yes! Frostgrave in 90 minutes including set up and tear down, or just set up a game. I've got 4 kids and work a minimum of 50hrs/week and volunteer another 10. I can't spend game time not gaming.
Came here to say this too. I just got into the tabletop hobby and thought an army game was a really neat idea. Then after buying a used army, realizing I needed to paint, customize and buy more, just to play a 3 hour game...there was no way that was going to happen as a Dad of two small kids. So Kill Team is a perfect compromise, couple of models, 45 minute games = golden!
Your approach to Kill Team is my approach to Warcry. I currently have 3 painted warbands with 3 on deck. I prefer skirmish games because I feel like they allow me to control my hobby, rather than letting my hobby control me, if that makes sense.
@@emile1365 being new to the hobby haven't heard before of retro-munda neither seems that I'm capable of finding it on Google, I'll imagine it's not the original but a new approach to the old game. Whatever the case I'm at a lost
We just posted a battle report video for Witchin' Hour, a brand-new skirmish game out of Holland. We like skirmish scale games because we paint very slowly, so we get a much higher prep-time to fun ratio with a lower model count. Plus, we can play almost every game we have on a 3" x 3" table or smaller.
Five Parsecs from Home is a terrific sci-fi solo skirmish game that is heavily campaign driven and quick to play. It can be played coop or competitive as well but it really shines as a game you bust out and do a campaign round whenever you have a couple of spare hours here or there.
Big fan of the Osprey skirmish games here. I love how low the entry point for their skirmish games is, buy the rules, (re)use some miniatures, roll out a play mat and some terrain and you're ready to go.
Absolutely! Outremer and En Garde! are currently my favorites. Currently converting some of the old Pirates of the Spanish Main ships (the Wizkids collectible) to use with Fighting Sail, and considering Black Ops or Zona Alfa for a modern game. Dragon Rampant and Horizon Wars, while technically not skirmish games are nonetheless very approachable, resources-wise.
In Her Majesty's Name was probably the game that successfully introduced the concept of narrative skirmish games to the Osprey range. Something that Frostgrave then picked up so well and ran with.
One of the big reasons for the explosion in skirmish games is demographic; Wargamers, as a group, are on average much older now than they were twenty years ago. Wargaming saw a huge explosion in the late 90s and 2000s; It may be too much to say that it went mainstream, but at that time it definitely became a much larger niche market. That is when Warhammer 40k and Fantasy really took off, which helped spawn smaller competitors like Warmachine. At that time, most of the people who were coming in were in their teens and early twenties; An age where you have a lot of free time. As these "wargaming boomers", like myself, grew up, got jobs, started families, they naturally had less free time. The problem with Big Games is that they take a absolutely unholy amount of time; Both to assemble and paint the models, as you mentioned, but also to play. I haven't played Big 40k in a decade, but when I last played, a standard sized game would take about three hours - An entire evening or more. So a large part of these "wargaming boomers" gravitated away from wargaming, simply because it took too much time. There are, of course, still younglings coming in, but a larger part of the demographic is now made up of grown-ass adults in their 30s and 40s, because those people entered the hobby during the explosion of the late 90s and early 2000s. Skirmish games solve this, because the time investment, both to play a game and to get a force ready, is a fraction of what a big game requires. From the business perspective of the companies that make the games, they are a way both to ease new players into the hobby, and to get back those customers that can no longer commit to playing big games. Myself and my group of friends have in the past couple of years gotten back into wargaming in a big way, playing almost exclusively skirmish games. I have a lot of friends who hadn't touched a model in ten years now regularly playing skirmish games.
Skirmish games also help the Younglings thanks to their lower entry cost. Most teens and college age students won't have the disposable income for larger games anymore.
I was going to write a lengthy reply explaining my experience on the topic, but yours pretty much covers it all rather nicely. I will add that skirmish games also allow players to try out different factions without too huge of an investment. This is really helpful for players with ADD and short attention spans lol. These bigger companies will gladly sell you a gateway skirmish game hoping you'll move on to the bigger army games and if you don't then a sale is still a sale.
Absolutely - it's definitely as close to mainstream as it's ever been -you only need look at the diversity and choice within the hobby (and the fact it's all proving largely sustainable). Although some periods and theatres are underrepresented or not as "popular" (if that's a correct term to apply to something as horrendous as wars!) it's hard to think of an historical war or period that couldn't be gamed with a bit of effort, and in terms of fantasy, scifi, post apoc etc if you ca imagine it there's probably either a game for it or something not a million miles away. I compare that to when I was a kid getting into rpg's and mini gaming with Heroquest and it felt like GW was the only game in town - historicals were this interesting thing that I just didn't have access to or could find anywhere - it seemed like the type of thing you only got into by knowing someone who played already.
It’s like playing as The General vs The Officer. The General that lost one regiment, meh, that can be replaced. The officer that lost one man, irreplaceable doom. It’s more personal, losing one could mean defeat and needing to change tactics or position. The fast pace, more aggressive style of play, thinking on your feet is more fun than the cold calculating all seeing General. Plus, who has time to play a 14 hour game?
Skirmish games are perfect for people short on time. For me packin my Orks up and driving to the club, playing and then packing back back again is a whole day. Just for a one game. With skirmish I can meet my buddies, sit down in the kitchen, play 2-4 games and have fun
I use the 40k and kill team rules and some adjustments to play with my girlfriend. The first game I played was a mix of kill team and 40k. Had a blast and cant wait for more of my models to be painted.
Gaslands rule book is about $25, a hot wheels car is $1. You don’t need special dice and you can use paper templates that are free to download. It’s hard to find a lower bar of entry if you want to get someone into your game.
Star Wars Legion also has a new Skirmish version of the game which can be played with a single core set. Objective cards and rules are a free download. Games are much faster than a full game.
Absolutely love Warcry. Not too complex and “dice rolley” like kill team so my 10 and 7 year old picked it up quick, but also leaves lots of room for strategy and trying to combo abilities. A big plus is games don’t take much time at all. Not to say some can’t get dragged out. Quickest game I’ve played right around 20 min, longest a little less than an hour. I love the releases they are doing too. I know some say it’s too fast but card packs aren’t expensive and I think they are trying to get long time AoS players involved while also attracting new players. I’ve never touched warhammer fantasy but seeing warcry made me switch over to it from 40k.
To take it even further, SOLO-FRIENDLY skirmish makes things even easier for the busy (or just narrative-minded) gamer. Nordic Weasel Games' "Five Parsecs from Home" (sci-fi) and "Five Leagues from the Borderlands" (darkish fantasy) are my favorites.
Jon here from Modiphius (Fallout:Wasteland Warfare and soon to be Elder Scrolls:Call to Arms). Solo/Ai/CoOp gaming is a real passion of the boss, hence why we include those modules in our core games. It’s been interesting watching that style of game shifting into the mainstream, even GW are putting ai into some of these games (or bringing it back, given solo gaming was part of their 80s offerings...) Five x games are something the boss loves for sure, we play them in the office, certainly a different take on wargaming. Obviously we recently partnered with Joe for the special edition rangers if shadowdeep too, which continues this vein. I’m still a pvp kinda guy, but certainly it’s hybrid games like underworlds, then full skirmish like necromunda/killteam/warcry that I get to the table these days (when not working on our own games;) ). I like a game that’s setup and done in 90mins as I just don’t have the time... Saying that, I’m back into my 2nd ed epic in a big way, with many a 4 hour plus game played over the last six months... so I guess that’s the other end of the spectrum.
Other Nordic Weasel Games titles have a multiple "identity" but one of them is always the skirmish. Both Starport Scum and Dungeon Scum are more Roleplay-ish but battles can easily be called a skirmish matter. And then there's one of my favourites, Squad Hammer Core that's so simple that definitively blurs the difference between single and multiple-figures units. And even with multiple figures units, it's still just a lightning fast skirmish game.
@@killergoldfish1234 first solo game I played was original Warhammer Quest (it was a very robust solo) - great to hear you are including those options in your games, even ore keen to check them out! Out of interest, do you have any recommended sources for alternatives for Epic? I recently found my old stuff clearing out my mum's garage but I don't think all the actual models are there sadly.
I've ended up with a big collection of skirmish game rulebooks because "hey, I can play this with a handful the minis I already have". This is usually followed by me buying more minis to use with this new game.
@@swordssolitude3861 Advanced Song of Blades and Heroes. Using the online warband builder on Ganesha Games' website you can stat up pretty much any kind of fantasy figure you like. The Warcry warbands are actually great for using in the game!
Relicblade has all my attention these days: 4-6 models pr. side, awesome minis, artwork and gameplay courtesy of one man -Sean Sutter. It is modern but with an old school vibe, hilarious and brutal at the same time, a lot of familiar fantasy tropes but with a twist. The campaign system is superb. Your characters grows and become grizzled and battle-hardened, sporting old injuries. And you don't really have to buy his models (though, why wouldn't you?), since a lot of the characters are based firmly in classic fantasy. It is unique and I really recommend it☺
Got started with wargaming just this year thanks to Kill Team. I now own 5 kill teams, took Necrons to 2nd place at a local tournament, and am now branching out into the Middle Earth SBG. I had never even assembled a miniature before.
Marvel: Crisis Protocol is a pretty terrific skirmish game that launched in the Fall. Atomic Mass Games is a new company under a Asmodee and they have had a pretty aggressive launch schedule so at this point there’s a really nice selection of models to choose from. The game asks you to put a ten model “roster” together from which you field a squad of 3-6 for any game. The game takes two hours max to play. I really like the skirmish scale of war games because a lot more friends have the time and the energy for a game taking two hours and asking you to control 5 minis than they do for a game requiring 3-4 hours and asking you to keep track of two armies of 30+ minis.
I have some issues with a few of the minor details with MCP (model fit, unnecessarily tiny parts for what should probably have been an entry-level kit, instructions not being numbered even though the sprue is...) but on the whole great game. I mean, who doesn't want to paint Spider-Man?
What I like most about skirmish games is the narrative element :D each of my kill team dudes has a Name and a small backstory, and by now after a lot of games his own legend kind of... Like "remember when Stanislaus, even tho he was badly wounded, managed to kill a Sicarian Alpha in melee" :D?
Favourite Skirmish Game at the moment is 7TV from Crooked Dice Games. Cult TV themed gaming with 3 varieties: Spy-Fi Apocalypse Pulp + Fantasy coming next year.
I think skirmish games are the future for main gaming. For me personally normal army sized games take too much time to get going and play. 15min games is my cup of tea
I don't play skirmish games right now as I really love seeing swarms of models in the table. It helps with my immersion. But I am in whole support of skirmish games. If it's gets more people in the hobby, that's a complete win. I also think it will help bring people from card and board games into this as well.
Dim Sum is more how I view the skirmish games, rather than a buffet. "Here's a bunch of selections, with varying prices and ranging from basic to extraordinary. We charge you based on what you get, so enjoy your favorites and try new things!" I'm finding that my joy for skirmish games grows in direct correlation to how much my free time shrinks. The big issue that I have with skirmish games set in a larger "game-verse" (Warcry vs Aos, Kill Team vs WH40K) is that, while using all the same models is great, it means that I then have to collect an entirely new set of books/rules/etc because the specific statlines or rules or whatever are not direct translations. I have limited shelf space after 30 years of gaming. However, I do understand the mentality behind it: balancing.
I am really getting into star breach, which is free (I've got the deluxe pdf) and miniature agnostic. It runs on a 2d6 system with a single stat, and the bolt action-like dice pool.
I tried my first game of Star Breach last night. Maybe it was because it was late, or maybe it was just first game difficulty, but it felt clunky doing the combat math. Do you have any tips to clean that up? I'm also confused when I have more than one ranged attack and how that works in close combat as well. I'm sure it's just unfamiliarity, but it definitely felt more convoluted than Kill Team.
I love kill team, one or two rule books and up to 10 models and can have up to 3 games in the time it takes to have one 40k game and I can take my time and convert the models more to make them unique.
Another attraction of skirmish games is the smaller table size needed. That not only makes it easier to find space at home and reduces terrain cost but also means that stores can have more games in the store, or reduce the space they need so can use cheaper premises.
Skirmish games are great in regard of money and time. It really lets you go step by step while you can play pretty soon after starting. Like Dread Ball or Song of Blades and Heroes! And Advanced Song of Blades and Heroes is recommended very often! That's a wonderful skirmish system. Just marvellous!
If you don't mind me saying so, your channel has very good good production quality in your vids, good lighting and audio. Reasoned and well spoken points. Keep up the good work, and thank you.
Skirmish style 40k games, mostly KT, was a godsend for my shop. Once I put an emphasis on it, we literally quadrupled the amount of players at the shop, and it allowed us to pursue other games like X-wing and other modes like Urban Conquest. It just makes sense when customers get value, everyone wins.
Even for hobbying I really like the Skirmish type of limited models. 5-10 is perfect to get a really cool themed group, and then you're ready for another theme.
Great video! The skirmish games definitely got me into the hobby, and still spent a small fortune but now am pretty satisfied with Necromunda (I like the seedier side of things, and love the campaigns)
@@omnitheus5442 I tried. For a few months. I tried to get CB involved and got nowhere. I got so frustrated, that I gave up. The only Infinity meta was about an hour away, and I just didn't have the time to participate at all. It's a great game, and I might try to write something up for Kill Team with similar rules.
@@Derpy-qg9hn Agreed! Not sure why other skirmish games haven't adopted it. Also the prone mechanic is awesome. I'd love to incorporate those into Kill Team.
That high barrier to entry you mentioned was always the sticking point for me in getting into large scale war games. Warhammer 40k looks really cool, but I have neither the time nor the money to buy and paint a full army. Skirmish style games are a great way to "dip a toe" as you say, especially if there are AI rules to help learn the game and/or play by yourself if there is not a developed community for that game near you.
Kill Team is an awesome game for getting into the 40k setting on a small scale.... wish the original boxed set was still available, I am unsure if I really want the new boxed starter... not sure how much I like the terrain, and don't want the Reivers models... But, one could easily get into Kill Team with the core rules, and a box or two of models... Elites is a great expansion as well, gives a lot more variety and options... Looking forward to what might come in 2020 for Kill Team...
As a historical wargamer, I tend to think of games with 30-50 models as skirmish games in that context as opposed to full Napoleonic armies or something like that. E.g. Lion Rampant, SAGA, or Sharp Practice vs. something like Black Powder, where 1 model = 1 soldier instead of 4-6 = a whole company and you have numerous regiments of 20-30 figures. Even fielding 30-some troops, you can get into Lion Rampant for about $50, including the rulebook.
The Ministry of Gentlemanly Warfare has several skirmish games for many genres. I'm partial to Thud & Blunder (think D&D as a skirmish wargame) and Blood Eagle (vikings/dark ages with some fantasy thrown in as an option). Solid & easy to learn rules overall.
Imperial Assault got me into skirmish games, then when FFG came out with Legion I have had a great time with it, I am now getting into Kill Team because I have always wanted to play Imperial Guard.
Same. I wasn't even initially interested in the skirmish game of Imperial Assault. I purchased it entirely for the campaign game, but then my son asked me to play a skirmish game with him (he had played it several times with friends) and I was hooked. Now I have purchased Kill Team... and there is no looking back.
This is the gateway to war gaming. I started my oldest son playing Kill Team , Aeronrf and the sci fi High Crusade. My son was 8 at the time. Now he's almost 30 and we're having a blast with Core Space.
I hesitate to call battletech a skirmish game. Alpha Strike, yes. Battletech does have a low model count, but it's a longer game with a lot more unit management and record keeping than any other typical skirmish game.
Technically you can play without any models since the new starter boxes are filled with extra cardboard standees. Or make your own substitutes. I have a hard time picturing a 40k match consisting of nothing but paper.
One of my main goals in designing and publishing Urban Manhunt was to create a game in which each player needs only one model (the crims stalked by the players' "hunters" are represented by cardboard standups). And including a hunter creation system means that players can stat up a hunter based on whatever miniature they have at hand, thus lessening the cost even further. The idea of creating a game that is so accessible to new players is appealing to me, both as a player and as a publisher.
Watched a battle rep for Blast Pistol from GreyWizardGaming. It's 15mm and looks super fun! I'm ordering some models soon to play this. There is no active wargaming community where I live, but I know that this game won't have any trouble creating one haha!
Skirmish always had the greater appeal to me even when I just started out as a 13 year old. I guess its the "Roleplaying" aspect that caught my imagination more while playing say Mordheim or Necromunda. The fact that I can also still fool myself by saying "its only a few models this time" helps alot though :P.
From a company perspective it is also easier to supply a skirmish style amount of miniatures for the players, thus a new company could even go traditional mold casting by hand to get started. If the players need to be able to buy hundreds of plastic miniatures from the company then they need to start looking into automated mass production which can be a very high upfront cost to set up. Even a pre-established company that has the means for mass production might want to do a skirmish game as it has much smaller cost and time involved to get released, thus minimizing the risk.
Love bite-sized wargames! I picked up Thud and Blunder (supported by an active Facebook group) and SAGA: Age of Magic. I so miss MERCS. Backed Kings of War: Vanguard too, but haven't played it yet. So many options!!
MERCS was so good.. still holding out hope that comes back (with better models than those plastic board game bits)... Currently looking at using all my MERCS in Star Breach instead! And Age of Magic is CRAZY addicting for taking what you have always wanted to build and paint and making an army out of it! #Dangerous
I've loved GWs IPs for 15 years at least with the video games & books but the skirmish games have made me get into the tabletop game itself since they allow me total control.
Awesome video! Very much on target and to the point. I think you have articulated exactly what is happening in the hobby and with more clarity than any other explanation that I have heard. Thank you for articulating precisely what I dislike in miniatures wargaming and why I have all-but abandoned the hobby. (Not sarcasm, I have come to terms with this topic and appreciate this video!) I slightly disagree with one observation however - I suspect that interest in army games is suffering, perhaps to the point where they will disappear. I honestly don't know how many people are like me and have no interest in skirmish, but for us who are only army builders it's increasingly difficult to get a game. Is there enough incentive for the skirmish gamer to also army build? Can army building survive on skirmishes crossover? Meanwhile adding in the pandemic effect and my hobby currently seems like it is mostly painting with little prospect of playing more than a very few games - maybe none at all this year. Army builders are putting a lot of time and money into a hobby offering little in return. Sincerely, "Sour Grapes"
I stopped playing 40k when 4th edition came out. And the game that brought me back was Kill Team as it allowed me to make a collecting interesting. At the moment I have 4 teams and working on a 5th. This is allowing me to figure out if I want to collect this faction for 40k proper or just keep it small.
I stopped playing in early 7th edition, but then started again in 8th edition. However, I kinda stopped playing 40k when Kill Team came out. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for another awesome video, Uncle A. Totally agree on the buffet aspect: there are so many kill teams I'd love to build for different factions that I would never want to play in 40k. I also really like that the skirmish style games allow you to kit bash/convert/build some really unique models with a ton of personality. I've been on the edge of getting into Kill Team and this video might just push me over!
I love how you say "I took an unofficial... pole..." - at this point I thought you actually asked a bunch of people at conventions or whatever - "... in my head, during lunch" - made me laugh. I mean you just could have said " I thought about it during lunch" ;)
Did absolutely the same thing with Grey Knights for Kill Team. Also, same thing with Ironjaws for Warcry. Never going to have an ork army, but I’ll sure as heck pick up a single box of Brutes to use in Warcry. Skirmish games are the best.
The main appeal is that the battlefield(board size) size being somewhere around shoulder width is easier to manage, manipulate, and store. I really have to say that one of the physical limitations of material hobbies(action figures, miniatures etc) is the size of our bodies. Our fingers could only hold so much, and our eyes could only see so much. A smaller board means I could see everything at arms length while moving the pieces, as opposed to having to scan through the battlefield with my eyes. Imagine watching a movie theatre screen that is within the scope of our vision, versus a panoramic screen that requires us to constantly turn our heads and look around.
Well said Atom. Although not compatible with 40K, there are other skirmish style games within the same genre are: Imperialis Aeronautica is one and Adeptus Titanticus is another. Only a few planes are required for the former (although more are available along with ground guns and ground targets). The latter means assembling and painting only a few smaller scale versions of Titans, Warhounds, and Knights. For Titanticus, it also means assembling some smaller sized terrain that fits the scale. Most natural terrain for 40K will work well for it, but buildings would have to be at the smaller scale. The new boxed set is amazing! I'm looking forward to the change of pace as I tackle painting the models from it.
tbh i won't be playing army games. when I was young they were all that was around and it was kinda disheartening that I both couldn't afford to start and there was so much to prepare that was very repetitive, I like to have some variation to what I paint. skirmish games mean I can actually do something with my random collection of minis.
Monsterpocalypse is a great skirmish style game, each side has 1-3 monsters and a variety of small units and buildings, games are usually an hour or less and it takes very little time to set up or break down
I see it as a similar thing to how MMORPG's started to die off when drop-in-drop-out online games like Rocket League or Dead by Daylight came out. You can have one huge time and money investment or a bunch of varied small games that are less time intensive and easier to get into multiple versions of. Time was everyone i knew just played 40k and nowadays, quality of 8th edition probably helping people look elsewhere to a degree, my local has nights for Malifaux, Infinity, Bushido and so on and most succeed because you put down like the price of a start collecting box from GW and are just done.
Freeblades. Fantasy skirmish game. Living rulebook (ie, buy it once, updates forever). Good lore. Beautiful models. Narrative. Tournaments. They even have co-operative/solo missions like "defeat the dragon" that offers a different kind of play. I was hooked. Unfortunately, finding players is hard. It's still small and growing. Areas that have a good group are thriving. There's just no one else in my area interested... yet.
It's a more "realistic" proposition for a lot of us. Don't get me wrong, I love huge massed battle games in the vein of old WFB and stuff but I have a feeling that is going to be something I did/do in Highschool and college/retirement respectively! At the stage in life of two little girls and everything that goes along with it, skirmish games and stuff up to about AoS/modest game of 40k and stuff like Bolt Action is about my limit. Skirmish games have tons going for them as well - if you are trying to get someone into gaming they are often a much less intimidating proposition i terms of outlay, amount of stuff to physically get and paint, and a newcomer also is less likely to feel like they have to dedicate a room of their house or garage to store and play with the damn things. Skirmish level stuff is also a bit more forgiving for the hobby butterfly as it's much easier to smash out the 2 or 3 guys left to finish a warband you already have if something new & shiny catches your eye. For similar reasons they are also good for being able to dip your toe in the more obscure or fringe interests - basically all the stuff you think "it would be pretty cool to do (x, y or z) - but I can't see doing it" For example I can't see ever doing a full 40k force of Deathwatch or Harlequins as I like them but not enough to dedicate the space my "Main" armies for various games take up - but a killteam certainly is an option. Then there is the rules aspect - at typical skirmish level model count, you can make the rules as simple or granular as you like and the game won't bog down or take an age the same way a full size battle game of the same complexity and detail would - a classic example being the change from 2nd ed 40k to 3rd, which was much more streamlined - the 2nd ed rules were ace, but worked much better when co-opted and expanded for the first iteration of Necromunda, as they were designed for platoon level stuff - ideally 3 squads a character and a vehicle - but people were playing nearly company sized armies in 2nd ed and it was a bit too bloated and detailed for that without taking 4 or 5 hours to play.
I'll definitely have to check out all the ones you mentioned, I love WarCry and skirmish games in general so want to try em all. It's just less money and more variety with them that's why I love them
Customers space & time dedicated to the hobby. Ask around how many do have a permanent 6x4 table in their homes. Ask how many time will they spend, per month a full day of army battle.
Having crunchy rule, large scale miniature gaming roots, skirmish was my way back in after a long long hiatus. Between the two I love skirmish for all the reasons in the video
Watching this in 2021 and it still holds true. I think the current hard shift toward smaller boxed games and skirmish games can also be attributed to societal change. When I was a kid and the economy was relatively healthy, all you saw was army games. Kill-Team wasn't even on the horizon, and I got put off playing wargames many times because of the enormous investments in time, money and effort. Now as an adult I know I have no interest in games which could very well take 20 minutes per *movement phase,* nor do I wish to paint 30 of the exact same Space Marine, so skirmish games are even more appealing than they would have been to me as a youngster. I'm currently trying to get into Underworlds, and I may "graduate" myself up to War Cry from there. The fact that these games are--to a certain degree--collapsible is another point in their favour versus the bulky and awkward games of yesteryear. EDIT: For those of you wondering why I didn't just get into smaller indie games--this was before the internet. Hard to believe I know, but if you lived in a small town in the early-to-mid '90s you probably didn't even know what Warhammer (and by extension, wargaming) *was,* nevermind having a local shop to cater to the interest.
Gaslands refueled is a Post Apocalyptic Skirmish Battle Car Game. It’s has many different Events including Demolition Derby, Collect Zombies, And a Death Race. Buy a Hot Wheels or Matchbox Car, and prepare to battle, race, or both in a campaign that allows you to buy upgrades. If you’re a hobbyist, strip and add bits then paint them up.
I’ve seen a lot of people say this, but for my part, I moved from bigger games to skirmish because as I’ve gotten older and older, it’s harder to find the time for a big count war game.
Damn I miss Gorkamorka. I played 1st-3rd ed 40k and am back in the hobby with Kill Team. But Gorkamorka was so much fun because you could really develop characters, and it cried out for conversions and kit bashing.
deadzone by mantic games is a great skirmish game, the only downside being it's pretty hard to find people to play with unless you have a dedicated group of friends/gamers who are willing to invest a little other than that it's great and on the upside it is considerably cheaper and simpler than kill team, so a better game for newer players.
I’m a fan of the Saga miniature game. It’s somewhere in between the big army war games and the smaller skirmish game.... and the Age of Magic campaign book for it is incredibly friendly to any fantasy minis.
My humble submissions for consideration, both small British independent systems: Across the Dead Earth, small band 5-ish post apocalyptic Empire of the Dead, 8-10 size band, Victorian gothic horror with a bit of steampunk thrown in Both pretty simple and streamlined systems, lots of terrain setting options and both work on as low as a 2x2
I think that describing these Skirmish style games as stepping stones to eventual full-size wargaming is missing the mark. All these games owe something to the OG, 40k, but the rules and amount of time needed to play full-size wargames are very bloated and antiquated. Skirmish Style gaming is going to be the way of the future, mark my words.
I agree with you - we’ll keep seeing more and more skirmish-style games, but the smart companies that still have army-style games will always use their skirmish games to get you into their army games. Thanks for watching!
I think skirmish games are also great for growing the hobby and hobbyist. Not too much in cost for a warcaster and battle group in warmachine. I got a few different ones and was able to recruit players and just pass the battle groups to them. Then they grow their armies and I've got more folks to play against. I also think that kill team would be a good start to recruit more players for bigger games too. "Hey, we've been having a lot of fun with these little dooders... lets get some big machines or tanks next :) "
I've taken a really deep dive into Marvel Crisis Protocol and it's great. You bring a list of ten models to the table, generate the scenario randomly using cards, and then put anywhere from four to six of your models on the table based on your opponent's team and the objectives. Since it's a superhero game pretty much every piece is unique. The big problem is that the cost is still pretty steep. Unless you want to just use the core box (which has all the models you need) you're looking at about $200 for a playable force.
I really like Malifaux. The card-flip/control hand/soulstone use system is excellent. Other than the overly-complex assembly, the models are great. Bushido: Risen Sun is also quite good. I like that it plays on only a 2'x2' board. I used to play Warmahordes, but it's scale grew too big. Once one gets to a standard-sized game, it is really no less expensive than Games Workshop and the two dice system bogs the game down at larger-than-skirmish scale.
I've been a huge advocate for Heroclix for about 10 years now. I've also just picked up Crisis Protocol and I'm excited to check it out. Lastly, Funkoverse has surprised me with how much I enjoy it. I'd definitely recommend it as a casual skirmish game.
Moonstone by Goblin Kings Game is amazing! hard to get in states but shipping from UK isn't bad (6 models vs 6 models!) Card based amazing play. GodTear is another easy entry point game from SFG.. hexes (so not really skirmish in no terrain).. but worth doing! Pre-assembled models as well. Guild Ball gets an honorable mention for being an interesting take on sports/skirmish game... but model supply is rough for some of the teams. Arena Rex is another great really small (in theory) scale game... models are a bit boutique.. but worth it. Mantic games also has some great games like Vanguard (fantasy) and Deadzone (sci-fi) with larger version of Deadzone called Firefight... so get to use yoru sci-fi models without playing 40K sized games. Test of Honor and Mortal Gods (not to mention the upcoming Baron's War) are skirmish-esque games with small units of 1-3 models typically.. with about 20 models on the table. Currently under the Footsore Miniatures banners. Dust 1947 is another 'small wargame' with mechs and tanks with infantry.. very fast, brutal, beer & pretzels game (mostly pre-assembled too). I'm sure there are others.. and i took a liberal approach to what is 'skirmish" lol.
I live in a relatively rural part of the UK, we have a gaming club and I run a youth group. I have always really liked skirmish games and I own a bunch of them, however because of Kickstarter and cottage industry the market feels oversaturated. What I mean is that you buy a particular rule set, you paint two forces, you learn that rule set and then have to demonstrate it to a lot of people and hope somebody else is taken with it. 9/10 times people will appease you and say; "That was fun, I'd really like to get into this!" However, they never do. I've found I end up becoming a sort of sales rep for these games. If it isn't that then a bunch of us will agree to get into a game and I discover i am the only person who has painted a gang/crew/warband, then bought and read the rulebook. It is much more reliable in my area to play popular army games with a decent sunk cost because you are far more likely to get a game which you will be able to enjoy rather than be a teacher.
Please do a video and showcase your Kill Teams, the ones you have table ready, and also the ones yiure working on... show us the models, and maybe talk a bit on why your roster is what it is for each faction... I'm resisting the urge to start any mew Kill Team rosters until all my 40k stuff is assembled and painted.... I know I can easily play Kill Team with 6 or 7 flavors with models I already have, and if I start the 2 other factions I want for Kill Team, I will totally be sucked into a desire to make them into small 40j armies, then 1500 pts, then 2000...slippery slope... But I really do want to collect a Kill Team of Necrons and Tau... might have to give 40k a break and just hold onto my collection.... and focus on only Kill Team for a while.... I have a handful of other hobbies too, besides just wargaming....
I agree. I think the very high investment required was what did for the sales for Warhammer FBG. The 'in' required a big financial outlay, hundreds and hundreds of hours of building/painting, just to *try out* a game that you'd know you would only occasionally have time to play, even if you really liked it. It was a big ask when tabletop wargaming is so reliant on a regular influx of newbies because of the tendency for people to drop out of playing for a while, sometimes for rather extended periods, because of 'life-stuff'. It'll be interesting to see how GW intend to manage that for the re-introduction of the game.
I got back to the hobby after a long break from it and all those skirmish games are a real blessing to me! I’m currently having a lot of fun with Killteam, but I was wondering if there is a Fantasy Skirmish game out there for which I could use my D&D miniatures (so not just humans but also halflings, kobolds and maybe even bigger Monsters).
@@ilarinikkarikoski4765 it's being made by Modiphius, who did the Fallout: Wasteland Warfare game. Due for release in late March iirc. Full title is Elder Scrolls: Call to Arms.
For all of us fathers and husbands juggling hobby with life skirmish is where it is.
This. I get two nights, one is after work to game. I can knock out 2-3 games of warcry in that night as opposed to 1 full sized wargame. 1 full sized wargame is also just mentally and physically exhausting after a full day of work. Then it's much cheaper too because we split boxes amongst our local group to make it cheaper for everyone to play.
Such a true thing. Even I am a father of two
Yes! Frostgrave in 90 minutes including set up and tear down, or just set up a game.
I've got 4 kids and work a minimum of 50hrs/week and volunteer another 10. I can't spend game time not gaming.
Came here to say this too. I just got into the tabletop hobby and thought an army game was a really neat idea. Then after buying a used army, realizing I needed to paint, customize and buy more, just to play a 3 hour game...there was no way that was going to happen as a Dad of two small kids. So Kill Team is a perfect compromise, couple of models, 45 minute games = golden!
And students. Us students have it rough as well.
Your approach to Kill Team is my approach to Warcry. I currently have 3 painted warbands with 3 on deck.
I prefer skirmish games because I feel like they allow me to control my hobby, rather than letting my hobby control me, if that makes sense.
Yes agreed I am committed to my blood angel Army which I've been working on for months
Good point bro! Once Kill team came out, i have played and painted more than ever!
Same thing here. Have a Flesh Eater Courts warband and 2 on deck - Seraphon and vanguard Stormcast Eternals.
@@emile1365 being new to the hobby haven't heard before of retro-munda neither seems that I'm capable of finding it on Google, I'll imagine it's not the original but a new approach to the old game.
Whatever the case I'm at a lost
We just posted a battle report video for Witchin' Hour, a brand-new skirmish game out of Holland. We like skirmish scale games because we paint very slowly, so we get a much higher prep-time to fun ratio with a lower model count. Plus, we can play almost every game we have on a 3" x 3" table or smaller.
Five Parsecs from Home is a terrific sci-fi solo skirmish game that is heavily campaign driven and quick to play. It can be played coop or competitive as well but it really shines as a game you bust out and do a campaign round whenever you have a couple of spare hours here or there.
Big fan of the Osprey skirmish games here. I love how low the entry point for their skirmish games is, buy the rules, (re)use some miniatures, roll out a play mat and some terrain and you're ready to go.
Absolutely! Outremer and En Garde! are currently my favorites. Currently converting some of the old Pirates of the Spanish Main ships (the Wizkids collectible) to use with Fighting Sail, and considering Black Ops or Zona Alfa for a modern game.
Dragon Rampant and Horizon Wars, while technically not skirmish games are nonetheless very approachable, resources-wise.
gaslands is great, get some hot wheels
Luke Daley bought a few last night for the game!
In Her Majesty's Name was probably the game that successfully introduced the concept of narrative skirmish games to the Osprey range. Something that Frostgrave then picked up so well and ran with.
Same here. Frostgrave, Rogue Stars, Gaslands, and Zona Alfa have been my standbys for a couple years now.
One of the big reasons for the explosion in skirmish games is demographic; Wargamers, as a group, are on average much older now than they were twenty years ago.
Wargaming saw a huge explosion in the late 90s and 2000s; It may be too much to say that it went mainstream, but at that time it definitely became a much larger niche market. That is when Warhammer 40k and Fantasy really took off, which helped spawn smaller competitors like Warmachine. At that time, most of the people who were coming in were in their teens and early twenties; An age where you have a lot of free time.
As these "wargaming boomers", like myself, grew up, got jobs, started families, they naturally had less free time. The problem with Big Games is that they take a absolutely unholy amount of time; Both to assemble and paint the models, as you mentioned, but also to play. I haven't played Big 40k in a decade, but when I last played, a standard sized game would take about three hours - An entire evening or more.
So a large part of these "wargaming boomers" gravitated away from wargaming, simply because it took too much time.
There are, of course, still younglings coming in, but a larger part of the demographic is now made up of grown-ass adults in their 30s and 40s, because those people entered the hobby during the explosion of the late 90s and early 2000s.
Skirmish games solve this, because the time investment, both to play a game and to get a force ready, is a fraction of what a big game requires. From the business perspective of the companies that make the games, they are a way both to ease new players into the hobby, and to get back those customers that can no longer commit to playing big games.
Myself and my group of friends have in the past couple of years gotten back into wargaming in a big way, playing almost exclusively skirmish games. I have a lot of friends who hadn't touched a model in ten years now regularly playing skirmish games.
Skirmish games also help the Younglings thanks to their lower entry cost. Most teens and college age students won't have the disposable income for larger games anymore.
I was going to write a lengthy reply explaining my experience on the topic, but yours pretty much covers it all rather nicely. I will add that skirmish games also allow players to try out different factions without too huge of an investment. This is really helpful for players with ADD and short attention spans lol. These bigger companies will gladly sell you a gateway skirmish game hoping you'll move on to the bigger army games and if you don't then a sale is still a sale.
Absolutely - it's definitely as close to mainstream as it's ever been -you only need look at the diversity and choice within the hobby (and the fact it's all proving largely sustainable). Although some periods and theatres are underrepresented or not as "popular" (if that's a correct term to apply to something as horrendous as wars!) it's hard to think of an historical war or period that couldn't be gamed with a bit of effort, and in terms of fantasy, scifi, post apoc etc if you ca imagine it there's probably either a game for it or something not a million miles away.
I compare that to when I was a kid getting into rpg's and mini gaming with Heroquest and it felt like GW was the only game in town - historicals were this interesting thing that I just didn't have access to or could find anywhere - it seemed like the type of thing you only got into by knowing someone who played already.
It’s like playing as The General vs The Officer.
The General that lost one regiment, meh, that can be replaced. The officer that lost one man, irreplaceable doom.
It’s more personal, losing one could mean defeat and needing to change tactics or position. The fast pace, more aggressive style of play, thinking on your feet is more fun than the cold calculating all seeing General.
Plus, who has time to play a 14 hour game?
This is very true. Thanks for watching!
I jumped heads first into 40K. Still haven't completed my army. Got into Warcry and I currently have 3 fully painted warbands.
Skirmish games are perfect for people short on time. For me packin my Orks up and driving to the club, playing and then packing back back again is a whole day. Just for a one game. With skirmish I can meet my buddies, sit down in the kitchen, play 2-4 games and have fun
I'm new to the hobby, have only painted ten models, have only played one game, and I wouldn't be here if not for low model count games.
I use the 40k and kill team rules and some adjustments to play with my girlfriend. The first game I played was a mix of kill team and 40k. Had a blast and cant wait for more of my models to be painted.
Gaslands rule book is about $25, a hot wheels car is $1. You don’t need special dice and you can use paper templates that are free to download. It’s hard to find a lower bar of entry if you want to get someone into your game.
Gotta agree! I got two non-wargamers into Gaslands last year. Rulebook and a few hot wheels, and you are set!
Star Wars Legion also has a new Skirmish version of the game which can be played with a single core set. Objective cards and rules are a free download. Games are much faster than a full game.
Absolutely love Warcry. Not too complex and “dice rolley” like kill team so my 10 and 7 year old picked it up quick, but also leaves lots of room for strategy and trying to combo abilities.
A big plus is games don’t take much time at all. Not to say some can’t get dragged out. Quickest game I’ve played right around 20 min, longest a little less than an hour. I love the releases they are doing too. I know some say it’s too fast but card packs aren’t expensive and I think they are trying to get long time AoS players involved while also attracting new players. I’ve never touched warhammer fantasy but seeing warcry made me switch over to it from 40k.
To take it even further, SOLO-FRIENDLY skirmish makes things even easier for the busy (or just narrative-minded) gamer. Nordic Weasel Games' "Five Parsecs from Home" (sci-fi) and "Five Leagues from the Borderlands" (darkish fantasy) are my favorites.
I'll check out the sci-fi one, I think. Thanks for watching!
Jon here from Modiphius (Fallout:Wasteland Warfare and soon to be Elder Scrolls:Call to Arms).
Solo/Ai/CoOp gaming is a real passion of the boss, hence why we include those modules in our core games. It’s been interesting watching that style of game shifting into the mainstream, even GW are putting ai into some of these games (or bringing it back, given solo gaming was part of their 80s offerings...)
Five x games are something the boss loves for sure, we play them in the office, certainly a different take on wargaming.
Obviously we recently partnered with Joe for the special edition rangers if shadowdeep too, which continues this vein.
I’m still a pvp kinda guy, but certainly it’s hybrid games like underworlds, then full skirmish like necromunda/killteam/warcry that I get to the table these days (when not working on our own games;) ). I like a game that’s setup and done in 90mins as I just don’t have the time...
Saying that, I’m back into my 2nd ed epic in a big way, with many a 4 hour plus game played over the last six months... so I guess that’s the other end of the spectrum.
Other Nordic Weasel Games titles have a multiple "identity" but one of them is always the skirmish.
Both Starport Scum and Dungeon Scum are more Roleplay-ish but battles can easily be called a skirmish matter.
And then there's one of my favourites, Squad Hammer Core that's so simple that definitively blurs the difference between single and multiple-figures units. And even with multiple figures units, it's still just a lightning fast skirmish game.
@@killergoldfish1234 first solo game I played was original Warhammer Quest (it was a very robust solo) - great to hear you are including those options in your games, even ore keen to check them out!
Out of interest, do you have any recommended sources for alternatives for Epic? I recently found my old stuff clearing out my mum's garage but I don't think all the actual models are there sadly.
@@killergoldfish1234 oh and yes Rangers of Shadowdeep is awesome!
I've ended up with a big collection of skirmish game rulebooks because "hey, I can play this with a handful the minis I already have".
This is usually followed by me buying more minis to use with this new game.
What is your favorite skirmish rulebook for fantasy theme / flexible terrain (as in not using the warcry terrain)?
@@swordssolitude3861 Advanced Song of Blades and Heroes. Using the online warband builder on Ganesha Games' website you can stat up pretty much any kind of fantasy figure you like. The Warcry warbands are actually great for using in the game!
@@DaiMongar thanks I’ve watched some demo games and it looks ideal :)
Our local kill team scene has eclipsed our 40k scene. Infinity is also starting to pick up steam.
Infinity its awesome, give it a try.
@@leono83 I totally agree, if I had to start wargaming now, I would definitely go for it.
Relicblade has all my attention these days: 4-6 models pr. side, awesome minis, artwork and gameplay courtesy of one man -Sean Sutter.
It is modern but with an old school vibe, hilarious and brutal at the same time, a lot of familiar fantasy tropes but with a twist.
The campaign system is superb. Your characters grows and become grizzled and battle-hardened, sporting old injuries.
And you don't really have to buy his models (though, why wouldn't you?), since a lot of the characters are based firmly in classic fantasy.
It is unique and I really recommend it☺
Great micro-skirmish game.
Random scenario and monster generator FTW
madsbo I totally agree. It’s actually really fun to play. Bone and Darkness FTW!
Got started with wargaming just this year thanks to Kill Team. I now own 5 kill teams, took Necrons to 2nd place at a local tournament, and am now branching out into the Middle Earth SBG. I had never even assembled a miniature before.
Marvel: Crisis Protocol is a pretty terrific skirmish game that launched in the Fall. Atomic Mass Games is a new company under a Asmodee and they have had a pretty aggressive launch schedule so at this point there’s a really nice selection of models to choose from. The game asks you to put a ten model “roster” together from which you field a squad of 3-6 for any game. The game takes two hours max to play.
I really like the skirmish scale of war games because a lot more friends have the time and the energy for a game taking two hours and asking you to control 5 minis than they do for a game requiring 3-4 hours and asking you to keep track of two armies of 30+ minis.
I have some issues with a few of the minor details with MCP (model fit, unnecessarily tiny parts for what should probably have been an entry-level kit, instructions not being numbered even though the sprue is...) but on the whole great game. I mean, who doesn't want to paint Spider-Man?
What I like most about skirmish games is the narrative element :D each of my kill team dudes has a Name and a small backstory, and by now after a lot of games his own legend kind of... Like "remember when Stanislaus, even tho he was badly wounded, managed to kill a Sicarian Alpha in melee" :D?
I watched a couple of battle reps. from some skirmish style games. I got stuck with necromunda. got the big box and i am really happy with it.
Favourite Skirmish Game at the moment is 7TV from Crooked Dice Games. Cult TV themed gaming with 3 varieties:
Spy-Fi
Apocalypse
Pulp
+ Fantasy coming next year.
Sounds cool, thanks for mentioning it, I'm going to look them up.
@@BillRoyMcBill well worth a look, you can download the Spy Fi version rules and cards for free from the Crooked Dice website.
Something else that helps with these small skirmish style games is that you can sell your models a lot easier if you dont like it and want out
I think skirmish games are the future for main gaming. For me personally normal army sized games take too much time to get going and play. 15min games is my cup of tea
I don't play skirmish games right now as I really love seeing swarms of models in the table. It helps with my immersion. But I am in whole support of skirmish games. If it's gets more people in the hobby, that's a complete win. I also think it will help bring people from card and board games into this as well.
After extensive use of the buffet analogy you say ‘its much easier to dip your toe ‘
BBQ sauce or Thousand Island dressing?
Both!
My favorite skirmish game when visiting Las Vegas: Buffets & Bad Decisions
Dim Sum is more how I view the skirmish games, rather than a buffet. "Here's a bunch of selections, with varying prices and ranging from basic to extraordinary. We charge you based on what you get, so enjoy your favorites and try new things!" I'm finding that my joy for skirmish games grows in direct correlation to how much my free time shrinks. The big issue that I have with skirmish games set in a larger "game-verse" (Warcry vs Aos, Kill Team vs WH40K) is that, while using all the same models is great, it means that I then have to collect an entirely new set of books/rules/etc because the specific statlines or rules or whatever are not direct translations. I have limited shelf space after 30 years of gaming. However, I do understand the mentality behind it: balancing.
I am really getting into star breach, which is free (I've got the deluxe pdf) and miniature agnostic. It runs on a 2d6 system with a single stat, and the bolt action-like dice pool.
I tried my first game of Star Breach last night. Maybe it was because it was late, or maybe it was just first game difficulty, but it felt clunky doing the combat math.
Do you have any tips to clean that up? I'm also confused when I have more than one ranged attack and how that works in close combat as well. I'm sure it's just unfamiliarity, but it definitely felt more convoluted than Kill Team.
Agreed. Fantastic and easy game to play. Fast too and tons of variety. Love it.
I love kill team, one or two rule books and up to 10 models and can have up to 3 games in the time it takes to have one 40k game and I can take my time and convert the models more to make them unique.
Another attraction of skirmish games is the smaller table size needed. That not only makes it easier to find space at home and reduces terrain cost but also means that stores can have more games in the store, or reduce the space they need so can use cheaper premises.
I adore that "buffet" analogy
There is also DBA for the lovers of historical gaming too. Playing in 15 mm also helps with time for painting & cost.
Skirmish games are great in regard of money and time. It really lets you go step by step while you can play pretty soon after starting. Like Dread Ball or Song of Blades and Heroes!
And Advanced Song of Blades and Heroes is recommended very often! That's a wonderful skirmish system. Just marvellous!
If you don't mind me saying so, your channel has very good good production quality in your vids, good lighting and audio. Reasoned and well spoken points. Keep up the good work, and thank you.
I don't mind at all. Thanks for saying so, and thanks for watching!
"This is not a Test" is a great post apocalyptic skirmish game with a fantastic setting and rules set.
+
After playing board games for years I starter to play tabletop games
Skirmish style 40k games, mostly KT, was a godsend for my shop. Once I put an emphasis on it, we literally quadrupled the amount of players at the shop, and it allowed us to pursue other games like X-wing and other modes like Urban Conquest. It just makes sense when customers get value, everyone wins.
Even for hobbying I really like the Skirmish type of limited models. 5-10 is perfect to get a really cool themed group, and then you're ready for another theme.
Great video! The skirmish games definitely got me into the hobby, and still spent a small fortune but now am pretty satisfied with Necromunda (I like the seedier side of things, and love the campaigns)
Infinity has been around for over a decade... best of the lot.
Totally agree. There is no meta in my area, though, so I'm getting into Kill Team.
@@thehumblepundit9790 could you get one started? Only need two to kick things off.
@@omnitheus5442 I tried. For a few months. I tried to get CB involved and got nowhere. I got so frustrated, that I gave up. The only Infinity meta was about an hour away, and I just didn't have the time to participate at all. It's a great game, and I might try to write something up for Kill Team with similar rules.
The reactive turn is the best mechanic ever invented in the wargaming sphere :)
@@Derpy-qg9hn Agreed! Not sure why other skirmish games haven't adopted it. Also the prone mechanic is awesome. I'd love to incorporate those into Kill Team.
That high barrier to entry you mentioned was always the sticking point for me in getting into large scale war games. Warhammer 40k looks really cool, but I have neither the time nor the money to buy and paint a full army. Skirmish style games are a great way to "dip a toe" as you say, especially if there are AI rules to help learn the game and/or play by yourself if there is not a developed community for that game near you.
Kill Team is an awesome game for getting into the 40k setting on a small scale.... wish the original boxed set was still available, I am unsure if I really want the new boxed starter... not sure how much I like the terrain, and don't want the Reivers models...
But, one could easily get into Kill Team with the core rules, and a box or two of models... Elites is a great expansion as well, gives a lot more variety and options...
Looking forward to what might come in 2020 for Kill Team...
As a historical wargamer, I tend to think of games with 30-50 models as skirmish games in that context as opposed to full Napoleonic armies or something like that. E.g. Lion Rampant, SAGA, or Sharp Practice vs. something like Black Powder, where 1 model = 1 soldier instead of 4-6 = a whole company and you have numerous regiments of 20-30 figures. Even fielding 30-some troops, you can get into Lion Rampant for about $50, including the rulebook.
Drowned Earth, Marvel Crisis protocols, Knights DC/Batman game. Heroclix (its just about hanging on in there) also BUSHIDO thats one of my favs
The Ministry of Gentlemanly Warfare has several skirmish games for many genres. I'm partial to Thud & Blunder (think D&D as a skirmish wargame) and Blood Eagle (vikings/dark ages with some fantasy thrown in as an option). Solid & easy to learn rules overall.
Song of Blades and Heroes is just a must have a go!
Imperial Assault got me into skirmish games, then when FFG came out with Legion I have had a great time with it, I am now getting into Kill Team because I have always wanted to play Imperial Guard.
Same. I wasn't even initially interested in the skirmish game of Imperial Assault. I purchased it entirely for the campaign game, but then my son asked me to play a skirmish game with him (he had played it several times with friends) and I was hooked. Now I have purchased Kill Team... and there is no looking back.
This is the gateway to war gaming. I started my oldest son playing Kill Team , Aeronrf and the sci fi High Crusade. My son was 8 at the time. Now he's almost 30 and we're having a blast with Core Space.
Deadzone and Kings of War: Vanguard from Mantic. The now defunct Wrath of Kings from CMoN. Gaslands, also from Osprey.
I am going to a vanguard demo Monday night with Ronnie Renton.
My brain is already working on multiple warbands
@@tomryan3768 Gonna fight his dwarves?
@@rustedbeetle maybe? It's a demo so I'm not sure if I have to bring anything.
( i might cobble together an undead or dust warband)
BattleTech has long been my skirmish game of choice, you can play with just two models!
I hesitate to call battletech a skirmish game. Alpha Strike, yes. Battletech does have a low model count, but it's a longer game with a lot more unit management and record keeping than any other typical skirmish game.
Technically you can play without any models since the new starter boxes are filled with extra cardboard standees. Or make your own substitutes.
I have a hard time picturing a 40k match consisting of nothing but paper.
One of my main goals in designing and publishing Urban Manhunt was to create a game in which each player needs only one model (the crims stalked by the players' "hunters" are represented by cardboard standups). And including a hunter creation system means that players can stat up a hunter based on whatever miniature they have at hand, thus lessening the cost even further. The idea of creating a game that is so accessible to new players is appealing to me, both as a player and as a publisher.
Watched a battle rep for Blast Pistol from GreyWizardGaming. It's 15mm and looks super fun! I'm ordering some models soon to play this. There is no active wargaming community where I live, but I know that this game won't have any trouble creating one haha!
Skirmish always had the greater appeal to me even when I just started out as a 13 year old. I guess its the "Roleplaying" aspect that caught my imagination more while playing say Mordheim or Necromunda. The fact that I can also still fool myself by saying "its only a few models this time" helps alot though :P.
From a company perspective it is also easier to supply a skirmish style amount of miniatures for the players, thus a new company could even go traditional mold casting by hand to get started. If the players need to be able to buy hundreds of plastic miniatures from the company then they need to start looking into automated mass production which can be a very high upfront cost to set up.
Even a pre-established company that has the means for mass production might want to do a skirmish game as it has much smaller cost and time involved to get released, thus minimizing the risk.
Wow, you summed up everything how I feel on it too. amazing video, here's a thumbs up
Love bite-sized wargames! I picked up Thud and Blunder (supported by an active Facebook group) and SAGA: Age of Magic. I so miss MERCS. Backed Kings of War: Vanguard too, but haven't played it yet. So many options!!
MERCS was so good.. still holding out hope that comes back (with better models than those plastic board game bits)... Currently looking at using all my MERCS in Star Breach instead!
And Age of Magic is CRAZY addicting for taking what you have always wanted to build and paint and making an army out of it! #Dangerous
@@SciFiPorkChop28 That's awesome to hear about Age of Magic! I hold on to the MERCS stuff in case I want to do a sci-fi rpg or skirmish.
i have a whole bunch of MERCS metal models in the basement, I think. I *should* totally use them for a Star Breach warbands. Thanks for watching!
I've loved GWs IPs for 15 years at least with the video games & books but the skirmish games have made me get into the tabletop game itself since they allow me total control.
I'm pretty sure that's part of the plan. Have fun, and thanks for watching!
Awesome video! Very much on target and to the point. I think you have articulated exactly what is happening in the hobby and with more clarity than any other explanation that I have heard. Thank you for articulating precisely what I dislike in miniatures wargaming and why I have all-but abandoned the hobby. (Not sarcasm, I have come to terms with this topic and appreciate this video!)
I slightly disagree with one observation however - I suspect that interest in army games is suffering, perhaps to the point where they will disappear. I honestly don't know how many people are like me and have no interest in skirmish, but for us who are only army builders it's increasingly difficult to get a game. Is there enough incentive for the skirmish gamer to also army build? Can army building survive on skirmishes crossover?
Meanwhile adding in the pandemic effect and my hobby currently seems like it is mostly painting with little prospect of playing more than a very few games - maybe none at all this year. Army builders are putting a lot of time and money into a hobby offering little in return.
Sincerely,
"Sour Grapes"
I stopped playing 40k when 4th edition came out. And the game that brought me back was Kill Team as it allowed me to make a collecting interesting. At the moment I have 4 teams and working on a 5th. This is allowing me to figure out if I want to collect this faction for 40k proper or just keep it small.
I stopped playing in early 7th edition, but then started again in 8th edition. However, I kinda stopped playing 40k when Kill Team came out. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for another awesome video, Uncle A. Totally agree on the buffet aspect: there are so many kill teams I'd love to build for different factions that I would never want to play in 40k. I also really like that the skirmish style games allow you to kit bash/convert/build some really unique models with a ton of personality. I've been on the edge of getting into Kill Team and this video might just push me over!
I love how you say "I took an unofficial... pole..." - at this point I thought you actually asked a bunch of people at conventions or whatever - "... in my head, during lunch" - made me laugh. I mean you just could have said " I thought about it during lunch" ;)
I started with getting into creating an army myself (admech) and then found out about Kill Team, and now I am trying to do both 40K and Kill Team.
Did absolutely the same thing with Grey Knights for Kill Team.
Also, same thing with Ironjaws for Warcry.
Never going to have an ork army, but I’ll sure as heck pick up a single box of Brutes to use in Warcry.
Skirmish games are the best.
The main appeal is that the battlefield(board size) size being somewhere around shoulder width is easier to manage, manipulate, and store.
I really have to say that one of the physical limitations of material hobbies(action figures, miniatures etc) is the size of our bodies. Our fingers could only hold so much, and our eyes could only see so much.
A smaller board means I could see everything at arms length while moving the pieces, as opposed to having to scan through the battlefield with my eyes.
Imagine watching a movie theatre screen that is within the scope of our vision, versus a panoramic screen that requires us to constantly turn our heads and look around.
So your saying dip our toes in the buffet? Got it! Awesome video as ever, thanks.
Your mileage may vary. Thanks for watching!
Well said Atom.
Although not compatible with 40K, there are other skirmish style games within the same genre are: Imperialis Aeronautica is one and Adeptus Titanticus is another.
Only a few planes are required for the former (although more are available along with ground guns and ground targets). The latter means assembling and painting only a few smaller scale versions of Titans, Warhounds, and Knights. For Titanticus, it also means assembling some smaller sized terrain that fits the scale. Most natural terrain for 40K will work well for it, but buildings would have to be at the smaller scale. The new boxed set is amazing! I'm looking forward to the change of pace as I tackle painting the models from it.
tbh i won't be playing army games. when I was young they were all that was around and it was kinda disheartening that I both couldn't afford to start and there was so much to prepare that was very repetitive, I like to have some variation to what I paint. skirmish games mean I can actually do something with my random collection of minis.
Monsterpocalypse is a great skirmish style game, each side has 1-3 monsters and a variety of small units and buildings, games are usually an hour or less and it takes very little time to set up or break down
I see it as a similar thing to how MMORPG's started to die off when drop-in-drop-out online games like Rocket League or Dead by Daylight came out. You can have one huge time and money investment or a bunch of varied small games that are less time intensive and easier to get into multiple versions of. Time was everyone i knew just played 40k and nowadays, quality of 8th edition probably helping people look elsewhere to a degree, my local has nights for Malifaux, Infinity, Bushido and so on and most succeed because you put down like the price of a start collecting box from GW and are just done.
Freeblades. Fantasy skirmish game. Living rulebook (ie, buy it once, updates forever). Good lore. Beautiful models. Narrative. Tournaments. They even have co-operative/solo missions like "defeat the dragon" that offers a different kind of play. I was hooked. Unfortunately, finding players is hard. It's still small and growing. Areas that have a good group are thriving. There's just no one else in my area interested... yet.
Heroscape is still one of my favorites old-time skirmish games. You can also use the figures for Frostgrave and Rangers of Shadow Deep!
It's a more "realistic" proposition for a lot of us. Don't get me wrong, I love huge massed battle games in the vein of old WFB and stuff but I have a feeling that is going to be something I did/do in Highschool and college/retirement respectively! At the stage in life of two little girls and everything that goes along with it, skirmish games and stuff up to about AoS/modest game of 40k and stuff like Bolt Action is about my limit.
Skirmish games have tons going for them as well - if you are trying to get someone into gaming they are often a much less intimidating proposition i terms of outlay, amount of stuff to physically get and paint, and a newcomer also is less likely to feel like they have to dedicate a room of their house or garage to store and play with the damn things. Skirmish level stuff is also a bit more forgiving for the hobby butterfly as it's much easier to smash out the 2 or 3 guys left to finish a warband you already have if something new & shiny catches your eye.
For similar reasons they are also good for being able to dip your toe in the more obscure or fringe interests - basically all the stuff you think "it would be pretty cool to do (x, y or z) - but I can't see doing it" For example I can't see ever doing a full 40k force of Deathwatch or Harlequins as I like them but not enough to dedicate the space my "Main" armies for various games take up - but a killteam certainly is an option.
Then there is the rules aspect - at typical skirmish level model count, you can make the rules as simple or granular as you like and the game won't bog down or take an age the same way a full size battle game of the same complexity and detail would - a classic example being the change from 2nd ed 40k to 3rd, which was much more streamlined - the 2nd ed rules were ace, but worked much better when co-opted and expanded for the first iteration of Necromunda, as they were designed for platoon level stuff - ideally 3 squads a character and a vehicle - but people were playing nearly company sized armies in 2nd ed and it was a bit too bloated and detailed for that without taking 4 or 5 hours to play.
I'll definitely have to check out all the ones you mentioned, I love WarCry and skirmish games in general so want to try em all. It's just less money and more variety with them that's why I love them
Customers space & time dedicated to the hobby. Ask around how many do have a permanent 6x4 table in their homes. Ask how many time will they spend, per month a full day of army battle.
Having crunchy rule, large scale miniature gaming roots, skirmish was my way back in after a long long hiatus. Between the two I love skirmish for all the reasons in the video
Watching this in 2021 and it still holds true.
I think the current hard shift toward smaller boxed games and skirmish games can also be attributed to societal change. When I was a kid and the economy was relatively healthy, all you saw was army games. Kill-Team wasn't even on the horizon, and I got put off playing wargames many times because of the enormous investments in time, money and effort.
Now as an adult I know I have no interest in games which could very well take 20 minutes per *movement phase,* nor do I wish to paint 30 of the exact same Space Marine, so skirmish games are even more appealing than they would have been to me as a youngster. I'm currently trying to get into Underworlds, and I may "graduate" myself up to War Cry from there. The fact that these games are--to a certain degree--collapsible is another point in their favour versus the bulky and awkward games of yesteryear.
EDIT: For those of you wondering why I didn't just get into smaller indie games--this was before the internet. Hard to believe I know, but if you lived in a small town in the early-to-mid '90s you probably didn't even know what Warhammer (and by extension, wargaming) *was,* nevermind having a local shop to cater to the interest.
Gaslands refueled is a Post Apocalyptic Skirmish Battle Car Game. It’s has many different Events including Demolition Derby, Collect Zombies, And a Death Race. Buy a Hot Wheels or Matchbox Car, and prepare to battle, race, or both in a campaign that allows you to buy upgrades. If you’re a hobbyist, strip and add bits then paint them up.
I’ve seen a lot of people say this, but for my part, I moved from bigger games to skirmish because as I’ve gotten older and older, it’s harder to find the time for a big count war game.
Don't forget 7TV from Croocked Dice Games :)
Damn I miss Gorkamorka. I played 1st-3rd ed 40k and am back in the hobby with Kill Team. But Gorkamorka was so much fun because you could really develop characters, and it cried out for conversions and kit bashing.
deadzone by mantic games is a great skirmish game, the only downside being it's pretty hard to find people to play with unless you have a dedicated group of friends/gamers who are willing to invest a little other than that it's great and on the upside it is considerably cheaper and simpler than kill team, so a better game for newer players.
Old and golden Mordheim!
I’m a fan of the Saga miniature game. It’s somewhere in between the big army war games and the smaller skirmish game.... and the Age of Magic campaign book for it is incredibly friendly to any fantasy minis.
My humble submissions for consideration, both small British independent systems:
Across the Dead Earth, small band 5-ish post apocalyptic
Empire of the Dead, 8-10 size band, Victorian gothic horror with a bit of steampunk thrown in
Both pretty simple and streamlined systems, lots of terrain setting options and both work on as low as a 2x2
I think that describing these Skirmish style games as stepping stones to eventual full-size wargaming is missing the mark. All these games owe something to the OG, 40k, but the rules and amount of time needed to play full-size wargames are very bloated and antiquated.
Skirmish Style gaming is going to be the way of the future, mark my words.
I agree with you - we’ll keep seeing more and more skirmish-style games, but the smart companies that still have army-style games will always use their skirmish games to get you into their army games. Thanks for watching!
I think skirmish games are also great for growing the hobby and hobbyist. Not too much in cost for a warcaster and battle group in warmachine. I got a few different ones and was able to recruit players and just pass the battle groups to them. Then they grow their armies and I've got more folks to play against. I also think that kill team would be a good start to recruit more players for bigger games too. "Hey, we've been having a lot of fun with these little dooders... lets get some big machines or tanks next :) "
I've taken a really deep dive into Marvel Crisis Protocol and it's great. You bring a list of ten models to the table, generate the scenario randomly using cards, and then put anywhere from four to six of your models on the table based on your opponent's team and the objectives. Since it's a superhero game pretty much every piece is unique.
The big problem is that the cost is still pretty steep. Unless you want to just use the core box (which has all the models you need) you're looking at about $200 for a playable force.
Great channel mate, definitely steering towards "pa-chow" more skirmish games other than the big army games 👍👍
I really like Malifaux. The card-flip/control hand/soulstone use system is excellent. Other than the overly-complex assembly, the models are great.
Bushido: Risen Sun is also quite good. I like that it plays on only a 2'x2' board.
I used to play Warmahordes, but it's scale grew too big. Once one gets to a standard-sized game, it is really no less expensive than Games Workshop and the two dice system bogs the game down at larger-than-skirmish scale.
I love the outro song this episode!
I've been a huge advocate for Heroclix for about 10 years now. I've also just picked up Crisis Protocol and I'm excited to check it out.
Lastly, Funkoverse has surprised me with how much I enjoy it. I'd definitely recommend it as a casual skirmish game.
Moonstone by Goblin Kings Game is amazing! hard to get in states but shipping from UK isn't bad (6 models vs 6 models!) Card based amazing play.
GodTear is another easy entry point game from SFG.. hexes (so not really skirmish in no terrain).. but worth doing! Pre-assembled models as well.
Guild Ball gets an honorable mention for being an interesting take on sports/skirmish game... but model supply is rough for some of the teams.
Arena Rex is another great really small (in theory) scale game... models are a bit boutique.. but worth it.
Mantic games also has some great games like Vanguard (fantasy) and Deadzone (sci-fi) with larger version of Deadzone called Firefight... so get to use yoru sci-fi models without playing 40K sized games.
Test of Honor and Mortal Gods (not to mention the upcoming Baron's War) are skirmish-esque games with small units of 1-3 models typically.. with about 20 models on the table. Currently under the Footsore Miniatures banners.
Dust 1947 is another 'small wargame' with mechs and tanks with infantry.. very fast, brutal, beer & pretzels game (mostly pre-assembled too).
I'm sure there are others.. and i took a liberal approach to what is 'skirmish" lol.
I tried playing 40K style with Lego Star Wars Figures. Worked surprisingly well
I live in a relatively rural part of the UK, we have a gaming club and I run a youth group. I have always really liked skirmish games and I own a bunch of them, however because of Kickstarter and cottage industry the market feels oversaturated.
What I mean is that you buy a particular rule set, you paint two forces, you learn that rule set and then have to demonstrate it to a lot of people and hope somebody else is taken with it. 9/10 times people will appease you and say; "That was fun, I'd really like to get into this!" However, they never do. I've found I end up becoming a sort of sales rep for these games. If it isn't that then a bunch of us will agree to get into a game and I discover i am the only person who has painted a gang/crew/warband, then bought and read the rulebook.
It is much more reliable in my area to play popular army games with a decent sunk cost because you are far more likely to get a game which you will be able to enjoy rather than be a teacher.
Please do a video and showcase your Kill Teams, the ones you have table ready, and also the ones yiure working on... show us the models, and maybe talk a bit on why your roster is what it is for each faction...
I'm resisting the urge to start any mew Kill Team rosters until all my 40k stuff is assembled and painted.... I know I can easily play Kill Team with 6 or 7 flavors with models I already have, and if I start the 2 other factions I want for Kill Team, I will totally be sucked into a desire to make them into small 40j armies, then 1500 pts, then 2000...slippery slope...
But I really do want to collect a Kill Team of Necrons and Tau... might have to give 40k a break and just hold onto my collection.... and focus on only Kill Team for a while.... I have a handful of other hobbies too, besides just wargaming....
I'm thinking about it, just need to think about the format a little more. Thanks for watching!
I agree. I think the very high investment required was what did for the sales for Warhammer FBG. The 'in' required a big financial outlay, hundreds and hundreds of hours of building/painting, just to *try out* a game that you'd know you would only occasionally have time to play, even if you really liked it. It was a big ask when tabletop wargaming is so reliant on a regular influx of newbies because of the tendency for people to drop out of playing for a while, sometimes for rather extended periods, because of 'life-stuff'. It'll be interesting to see how GW intend to manage that for the re-introduction of the game.
for sure they are right for me, i always play with myself
I got back to the hobby after a long break from it and all those skirmish games are a real blessing to me! I’m currently having a lot of fun with Killteam, but I was wondering if there is a Fantasy Skirmish game out there for which I could use my D&D miniatures (so not just humans but also halflings, kobolds and maybe even bigger Monsters).
I'm greatly anticipating the upcoming Elder Scrolls skirmish game. You could say I'm...
Dovahkeen.
I didnt know of such game coming!
@@ilarinikkarikoski4765 it's being made by Modiphius, who did the Fallout: Wasteland Warfare game. Due for release in late March iirc. Full title is Elder Scrolls: Call to Arms.
strong pun work, I approve
I want to pick up Necromunda and Blitz Bowl. Father of two here with very little time to play. Feel like skirmish style is the ticket.