Been using Harry's for years and been meaning to get a new handle for that travel cover. Now's as good a time as any. The blades last forever so I'll have to tweak that subscription pretty quickly.
As a 3D modeler and game developer I love ZBrush but its a double edge sword as its created a generation of artists that have replaced strong silhouettes and shape language with visual noise. This started in games and then blead into movies and now mini sculpting. The reason Space Marines are so iconic is their simplicity of form as compared to the noise blobs in a game like Gears of War. The eye needs to rest when looking at images and sculptures so detail is good but in moderation.
I really miss the old Marine range. I think GW might even be realizing their mistake since they brought terminators back and are putting them front and center promoting the new edition. They're a cool and iconic old unit with a recognizable silhouette, like classic dreads, jump pack units, rhino/predator chassis vehicles, etc. all used to be.
One of my favourite bugbears about 3D printing minis is digital sculptors who seem to exist almost solely in the virtual, with apparently little experience on the limitations of physical reality. They'll sculpt a dragon in flight, supported by tree branch that is brushing past the tip of its wing, without a care for gravity and weight. They'll sculpt free-floating jewelry chains, delicate as a human hair, floating in mid-air, where an experienced physical sculptor would properly merge such things with the surface.
Another issue I've seen with alot of 3D modelers is depth of detail. On a GW Space Marine, detail has alot of depth, so as layers of paint go on, it's still there. I've bought some 3d printed models, and had to put the lightest of light under coats on, otherwise you lose detail on the model as it has no depth. They forget these models are to be painted, and that needs to be taken into account.
That's a good point; the Contrast style paints work well with hyper detailed minis. I was always put off trying to paint Corvus Beli's Infinity minis; but some Contrast paint will really sink in to all the fine lines.
@@euansmith3699 that's right. I play Infinity and was always terrified by the detailing on the minis, but my anxiety over them reduced a lot once I started getting to grips with contrast-style paints, as well as bit obsessing over every single detail. I know I'm not doing them studio-level justice, but at the same time I can now table some decent-looking, *painted* minis when I play, and that's hugely satisfying
@@andrewbeeching1240 Angel Giraldez's insane paint jobs on Infinity minis are a fabulous advert for the quality of the sculpting; but, boy, did they put me off trying to paint the minis myself. 🤪
@@euansmith3699 I know, right?! You get those photos of these amazingly realistic, detailed minis painted by Angel & Co. that look huge in the photos, then you go and buy the mini and realise it's the size of your little finger, and you wonder how - HOW?? - was it possible to paint the eyeliner above the eyes, that have the whites and iris and everything, when the eye on the mini is about 1mm across?? Hugely daunting, and to be honest, I could see that being something that counts against CB's sales to newer or less confident hobbyists. Until, that is, you learnt like I did to accept just slapping Guilliman Flesh or similar across all the facial features and call it a day. Win!!
It's not just a problem for painting the minis either. It also makes it harder to have a good focal point on the mini. Our eyes tend to focus on areas with higher detail, but only if that detail is surrounded by an area of less detail. If the entire mini is covered in intricate detail, you have to use different tricks to create a definite focal point on the model.
I completely agree. There's so many minis out there that are beautifully painted that I just don't even want to look at because my eyes don't have a place to land on them. There's a beauty to simpler minis.
Professional painters have taken over the hobby. It’s ruining it for the table top gamer. The additional details should be an add on bitz and not a part of the mini.
what is nice about painting less detailed minis, is being able to add details like texture with paint. this helped me grow more as a painter. being able to visualise whats not ion the sculpt and add it. great vid mate!
My favorite highly detailed minis are the ones that incorporate detail by having large surfaces of interesting texture, not lots of individual distinct objects. Especially with the abundance of recent paint lines designed to be applied quickly over textured surfaces, I would love to see more sculptors take that stance (it's one of the reasons why Bestiarum is one of my favorite sculptors). Really love the relic blade models and may look into picking some up for myself!
A lot of these excess details used to come in the form of extra bits in a box of minis. They weren't by any means necessary for the completion of the model but it was up to you to decide how much additional flair you wanted to have for a sergeant or hero.
Thats one of the things I like most about certain patreons. Some of them go waaay overboard, but some (Like one page rules) strike a very good balance of detain and paintability.
I used to feel that way about One Page Rules but their Sisters of Battle collection is atrocious in my opinion, the models are way too detailed for how small they are
@@kaci8822 OPA himself is worried about that response. But the Battle Sisters (now called Blessed Sisters to be a bit more "legally distinct") were supposed to be overly detailed to match their real world design inspiration. The upcoming Human Empire models are much more simplified (he showed off the renders for them in the recent Hangout Stream on the official channel), and that is the style he wants for units.
@@KnTenshi2 I'd been a patron for over a year and looking forward to the Battle Sisters line the most out of anything, I saw the previous Battle sisters sculpts and was decently impressed by those but this release felt like an unnecessary and fundamental shift from previous works. The designs themselves didn't make sense for printing on a fundamental level with tassels, trims, and detail; and trying to paint all that was even worse. I'm more than happy to talk with folks from OPR but as of now I'm out. Hopefully the Human Empire is sweet, wish 'em the best of luck with it.
I feel like there is room for both. And the beauty of today is you can pick the one you want. It's ok to want to do and paint super detailed pieces that can be admired from up close. It's also ok to make pieces that are highly stylized that look good from 4 feet away.
I love how vibrant you went with these, they look like they will be so much fun to play with. Sean's sentiment is beautiful and to me is exactly what the dynamic should be, a relationship that doesn't try to overshadow either party, the sculpt and paint job should complement one another in a way that is harmonious, and I think both of you accomplished that goal fantastically here.
Man, Sean is such a stand up guy. I ordered a few minis from him about a year ago, and he included a bookmark with a little doodle and thank-you note on it. The man spreads joy, and I'm here for it.
I've deliberately moved towards a very similar mindset when making my models. I used to make perfect geometrical symmetry, model everything in an engineer-like manner, measure shit to the micrometer. I had to create a solution for the endless detail-on-detail compulsion that I too suffered at the time. The first step away from this was the "Cube of Detail". When sculpting, I always had a 0.2mm cube in the scene. When you print stuff at the 0.05mm layer line height, 0.2mm is slightly more than the absolute minimum required to have a wash or drybrush catch on the detail. So when going for those detail adding passes, I brought the cube near the details so I'd stop myself from worrying about stuff smaller than that. A big breakthrough away from this mini detail obsession was when I made a copy of the GW Angron kit. I essentially just made the basic armor shapes, and then hand sculpted the details on top. It took less time, and it still after printing, looks just as good. Other two deviations I've made away from the insane detail-on-detail obsession since then has been to increase the size Cube of Detail to 0.3mm, and having another cube the size of 1cm3. That's roughly the side of a fingernail. That gives a better idea on how much details do I really want on a surface overall. Float the 1cm cube over, look at the details. Yeah it looks in the software like there's plenty of room to throw shit in, but the thing is that I'm looking at it so closely that the model should be printed at 75mm to match. There is no need to fuss over details on every surface, and it's just a waste of time for both the painters or hobbyists who want to use the models, as well as you as the designer of said model.
YES, THANK YOU! I've been lamenting this side of the hobby for a while now, it was about time a professional painter did the same. I see a lot of people, especially on YT, promoting "heavily detailed" minis as if it's the main feauture that makes them appealing. I want simpler models, where I can practice basic and new skill, not incomprehensible, tangled messes of stuff compressed into 2cms worth of plastic.
I'm in the process of painting that display model you showed in the intro, queen of malice from creature caster. The ammount of details is insane. There is simply no end to it and I feel like getting nowhere.
I really love the interviews in your recent videos. They're so interesting to see the painting as well as get insight into something I've never seen or thought of.
Thank you! This is a huge problem in the 3d print world. Artists are only constrained by their imagination and often compete for detail and complexity. Yes it looks very cool but you print a squad and realize this level of detail will take a month to paint. Archvillian minis creates some insanely detailed minis and ive printed very few and painted almost none because of it.
Man, Relicblade is such an awesome game, glad to see you jumping into it, many hours of fun await. Also fun to see a sort of retro-style paint job on these sort of retro-style models. A cool combination of old and new. Sean seems like a great guy as well, my first Relicblade order included a hand-written note from him, which surprised and delighted me.
I design fantasy football miniatures for printing and "paintability "is something I'm constantly working to improve on ever since I listened to one your podcasts with Miniac, (also to make edges less sharp!), those insights really helped me to make better sculpts for my customers, going by the feedback I get (there's always room to improve) , so I wanted to say thank you
Where can you find your designed minis?! I'm looking at getting into Blood Bowl and want to use some of the billions of printed sets I've found, but by the sound of your design philosophy I'd like to use yours!
I had a chance to chat with Sean a few years ago at Adepticon and thought his perspective was really refreshing and interesting. Every part of his game has an intentionality about it, from the nice hardcover rulebook to the amount of details on the figures. You can really tell he's a fan first and makes the kind of objects he would want to own as a hobbyist.
As a traditional miniature sculptor that can’t keep up with the level of detail found in digitally sculpted and printed minis, this makes me hopeful that my skills are worth improving and still have value. Great video!
I’ve been sculpting miniatures in blender for about a year now and honestly it’s nice to hear someone say they would rather have something simple. I’m still learning but I’m trying to keep “fun to paint” as design priority.
Really liked how you integrated the interview with the topic of the video and at the same time showing the painting process. You could say that was the smoothest blend of the video!
Painted my second RelicBlade mini yesterday and it was awesome. Such a humane experience. Face, arms, hair, dress, belt, dagger, and one fancy bit. A potion bottle. I actually had energy to paint the potion bottle because she didn't have a bunch of random crap like a book or a familiar or steampunk glasses or a laptop or a surfboard or whatever. Simple. Clean. Fun.
One of the reasons why I cant paint chaos space marines. All their ornate armor-rims and jagged edges and greeble on everything make it really hard for me to paint them. Like I just get overwhelmed by the detail and it stops being fun to me.
The nice thing about being a Eldar player in 40k is that while our models are small, they emphasize graceful curves and clean designs, not many (other than YOU corsairs) have a ton of fiddly straps and stuff
I've loved watching you since you first came on the scene...it's been like revisting my 30 plus year journey with painting in just a few years...obviously with the internet you guys can progress faster..but you've come to so many realizations with material, technique, and now miniature styles that I did on my journey...only you've done in in about a 1/6 of the time 😄. Keep having fun on your journey.
Excellent demo on the painting. Agreed on the issue of excess detail, which actually also is a real problem in things like movies or CG animated films where you get these overly complicated spaceships, monsters, mecha etc. It gets to the point where when you are watching the action scenes, you want to start singing "Kibbles and Bits and bits and bits.."
Big flat areas are very tricky when you not a master of layering like you and Miniac. Not everyone is a pro-painter or has the time to blow out a dozen hours per miniature. The high detail makes it SOOO MUCH EASIER to paint when you is a Slapchop-based technique. Basically, you have to use an airbrush to shade or screw around with Speedpaint/Contrast paint and overbrushing until it doesn't look splotchy.
This is an issue that I absolutely feel very strongly about. There are a lot of artists (very talented artists) who are making models designed to be printed as miniatures which have details which are far to small for a miniature. When I started making my miniatures I spent a lot of time printing my prototypes and checking how they looked as actual miniatures. I took a lot of time getting my body ratios to a place where I was happy with their proportions as an actual miniature. How we perceive scale on a screen is very different from how we perceive scale and proportions of a small object in our actual hand. I did originally open a store page with MyMiniFactory (bad experience) and I feel that they contribute a lot to this problem of overly detailed models which do not make for good miniatures providing a realistic and enjoyable painting experience. I felt a lot of pressure to produce miniatures with extreme levels of detail (bad miniatures) as it was only those types of models which I saw them promoting and helping market. This is hurting the 3D printed miniature industry as it damages customer confidence. When you see an extremely cool looking model, buy it and then print it only to discover that a lot of the detail does not show up in the print you feel cheated. This negative feeling only grows when you try painting the model and find it impossible to paint well. When I am making a model I want my customers to feel good about their purchase, find them easy to print and feel good about their choice to 3D print. I want them to enjoy painting them and be left with a painted model that, no matter what their skill level, they feel really proud of.
I think these minis are absolutely fantastic... not burdening them with 1000 tiny pieces of equipment actually really helps the basic forms to breathe, and gives them such lovely clean silhouettes
I disagree. Large, open areas are the boring parts of a mini, like the chore you have to complete to get to the good bits. The detail is where the fun is. I think it would be horrible for painters to go back to the bad old days of detail-poor minis. And metal? No thanks.
It's why I have started to get Into canvas Painting. I find it's more freeing when u manage to wrap your head around your doing literally all the work yourself
I think you have great perspective on the mini scene. I’m right there with you. I have several minis I’ve started but not finished. I need to get MY mojo back!
The increased level of detail on minis can really be tracked to the increase in the accessibility to quality 3D printers; now that more people have access to printers that can print quality resin minis, there are more and more companies putting out huge releases of 3D printable tabletop minis. One major issue with this is that a lot of the sculptors doing this work come from a video game design background (often looking to pick up some extra work on the side) and have never picked up a brush in their life and it shows in their sculpts. As you said in the video a lot of the renders look phenomenal, but if you print them out the detail is too shallow, the weapons are too thin to be durable at all, and the model ends up being a nightmare to paint.
Thank god someone is speaking about it, I remember dying inside when I saw the Veil touched for the first time, those are the most over design anti painter sculpts that I have ever seen
I thought the same, but after watching some yourubers paint them up, i think theyre so over detailed that it all kinda blends together and can be ignored and used as texture if that makes sense
@@chandlercampbell3356 yeah i just see it as texture and a perfect spot for contrast paint. I don't think this kind of hatred is warranted. I think it might just be difficult for Ninjon to use his painting style on such detailed miniatures.
ikr? Miniwargaming Dave is a valued and popular member of the community so people get a bit defensive when you give negative reviews of his passion project, but I also remember the first time seeing the Veil Touched. "What the hell is that?" was more or less the only thing that ran through my mind. It's like someone told the designers they get paid by the detail. Extremely detrimental to the overall design. I'm an artist from a different field, and we always say readability comes first.
@@aenlandril4353 Oh dont get me wrong, I dont hate them or Dave, I like them both, but I don't think they are ideal for some painting styles, and they are kinda busy 😅
I love the lower detail minis. Might have to get into Relicblade based on those minis. I'm so tired of 50% of the time I spend painting a mini being trying to find a way to efficiently go over eight million little details and trims and things. I painted a mini recently with the standard big shoulder pads which I don't mind, but then above and below the shoulder pads are these metal vents sticking out at either side. And the ones on top aren't OVER anything, it's just a vent sticking out perpendicular to the rest of the shoulder. I'm looking at this while I'm painting and thinking "the hell is that for?" Does it look cool? Nope. Does it make sense? Nope. Does it enhance the silhouette of the model? Nope. So why did they do it? I have no earthly idea. My guess is when the sculptors are working on the models in their sculpting program they get too zoomed in to the model and it still looks like a blank canvas for them. But it's not meant to be a canvas for them. It's meant to be a canvas for us. There's obviously extremes that can go either way. Nobody wants a knight that just looks like a blob of plastic with no details at all. But more companies need to consider the painter if they want to get more people into this hobby.
My first model I did was Cawl, I love the complex ones, it’s time consuming and slow going, but the completion is 10x better once finished. I get the argument though.
AH!! Been saying this for years haha!! Totally agree! You can clearly spot when artists are coming from video game, or have never printed a miniature before. I'm a sculptor (Vae Victis Miniatures), and before doing STL files, I worked on resin and pewter models, cleaarly helped me learn what works and what doesn't. If you want to put 5000 details, just go sculpt 75mm or bigger scale, imo!!
I’m SO glad someone else is saying this! It’s the reason I’ve not bothered CMON’s (misuse of) kickstarter for White Death. The models look like a nightmare to paint. Thx no thx.
As a mini sculptor I can confirm this, and also that clients often aren't painters as well, and judge the quality of the work by the amount of detail in a render than the quality of "paintability" of the details. In case of the lack of detail, they ask for more. there's no way out. I personally choose simpler minis to paint when I have to.
I actually 100% agree with this. They look amazing will all the detail sometimes but yeah completely derail momentum alot of the time. And then alot of minis (looking at you GW ) are way too busy and it ruins not only the painting experience but the look in general.
This was a really great video! I really dig this alternate presentation format. I like learning how to paint from you Jon but also learning about other products and their creators. Very cool!
A friend and I were just looking into Relicblade, debating where to start. Just ordered this morning, in case your video sends a horde and cleans them out.
100% agree. I got started painting heroquest models from the 1990's and it's a night and day difference. Many of these just feel like someone made a 'cool model' and didn't bother to think if people can fit a brush in a .5mm crevice.
These characters look like they're straight out of a comic book or a mid-90s cartoon! They honestly remind me of the Yu-Gi-Oh action figures I had as a kid and feel like a breath of fresh air after seeing a lot of grim dark styles lately. This makes me want to make some sort of bubblegum punk rogue
If you like less cluttered models look out for boutique mini companies with white metal minis and analogue sculptors. Try Hasslefree Miniatures or Heresy Miniatures for instance, or the Arcworlde stuff from Warp Miniatures.
Such a pet peeve of mine when you can tell a mini was sculpted with no consideration for the painter in mind. A lot of the details don't even make sense! The sculpts are just one of the reasons why I love Relicblade. The Destroyer Pig is my favorite even though it's hard to choose!
I dig it. And, yes, I'm tired of over detail on miniatures where I'm expected to field 10-20 of them PER UNIT. That's a lot of ego on the sculptor's part.
I personally prefer more simplistic minis when I'm painting, especially hand sculpted ones because the the sculptor can physically see if something is too small and detailed to paint (it'd also be a pain in the ass to sculpt something so tiny you couldn't paint it).
tbh i think its why i love the eldar so much rn, they have very few details relatively speaking, and the details they do have dont make painting a pain
I am just finishing a 1980s Warhammer Fantasy Army that I started 30 years ago. Orcs, Elves, and Dwarfs, no two the same, and near on 300 pieces. The paint then was Humbrol Enamel, which is hard work, but I started with that paint system and have to finish with it. Things have to be painted and shadows mixed. Small details are hard graft. I agree the new models just get fussier and fussier. I can't wait to change to water based paints, varnishes, and washes, as the new models demand it. Can't be done any other way. The pure volume of "bits" to do is astonishing. Even airbrushes can only do so much too, and much of that is to provide undertones. I do love the new models but they are expensive and demand more and more application to look half good. My next painting model army adventure will be Bolt Action WW2, because great results can be achieved without excessive painting demands. Painting should be fun and a stress relieving hobby, not some burden with a high work load. Love your channel. Exhibition painting is all very good, but most people would just like to make a nice job of their models. Making a nice job of it is where everyone would love some help with.
We can add to the mix "we should have perhaps stopped added weapons 4 weapons ago". I mean a certain company is doing that even with the infantry, compare a certain unit that is Desolating with a unit that is around since forever and had clear weapons that Devastated.
I got back into miniature painting recently but i regret starting a death guard army because they are so full of details and the details changes from model to model, one will have maggots of all sizes creeping out of every single nook, cranny and opening, another is filled with cracks and sores, ill be stuck painting one figure thinking im soon done and i just run into more and more little detail
I agree with a lot of this. I have been painting a lot of warhammer goblins, but have trimmed off a lot of the extra details like symbols or extra stuff sticking off them. I wanted them to be simpler to paint and not so busy looking.
That's why I love my middle and oldhammer collection, fun to paint nice from a distance and don't take 5 hours to base coat 15 different colored details
I know a guy from Scotland developing a board game with miniatures with the exact same mindset you describe here. Creating miniatures that look great on the table and not just while in a 3D modelling program.
Thanks for the mention (I'm the 'guy from Scotland) and for bringing this video to my attention. It's great to know that other people share this view and it's not just me.
I've been buying a lot of STLs of My Mini Factory to create some custom Kings of War armies, and I definitely feel this. There is a lot of cool-yet-overdesigned stuff out there that looks great as a render but not so great at miniature scale. Not to mention such things can be a nightmare to support and print and you're liable to break a bunch of bits off while removing the supports. I'm gravitating towards models that have good silhouettes for tabletop and are easy to paint... which has made quickly blasting through entire regiments of infantry and such quite enjoyable.
My Husband use to have a store on MMF but he found it to be a bad experience and switched to Cults3D. He felt that MMF contributed a lot to this problem and were only really promoting models which had excessive detail which made him feel preasured to do the same. It is not some thing he will ever do as he wants all of his models to provide a great painting experience. It is improtant when desinging miniatures that you do not lose sight of how they will be once printed at scale.
Good lesson, and I agree about the over engineering of minis. I think 3d printing would be WAY cooler if the people producing STLs would make minis look more like the thicc, hand-sculpted glory that got me into this hobby. There's a place for it all.
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Thanks again to Harry’s! Click here harrys.com/ninjon to redeem your Trial Set for just $5!
Been using Harry's for years and been meaning to get a new handle for that travel cover. Now's as good a time as any. The blades last forever so I'll have to tweak that subscription pretty quickly.
I don't even shave often but I got to my last blade yesterday and I'll check it out
I take it you don't like Warhammer 40k, lol.
Has anyone ever told you, that you look like jack Osborne slightly?
Link doesn't work :(
As a 3D modeler and game developer I love ZBrush but its a double edge sword as its created a generation of artists that have replaced strong silhouettes and shape language with visual noise. This started in games and then blead into movies and now mini sculpting. The reason Space Marines are so iconic is their simplicity of form as compared to the noise blobs in a game like Gears of War. The eye needs to rest when looking at images and sculptures so detail is good but in moderation.
Very nicely written.
I really miss the old Marine range. I think GW might even be realizing their mistake since they brought terminators back and are putting them front and center promoting the new edition. They're a cool and iconic old unit with a recognizable silhouette, like classic dreads, jump pack units, rhino/predator chassis vehicles, etc. all used to be.
@@ninneplug And if you look at the new sternguard veterans, models that are supposed to be fancy, they toned down the visual noise even in those.
One of my favourite bugbears about 3D printing minis is digital sculptors who seem to exist almost solely in the virtual, with apparently little experience on the limitations of physical reality. They'll sculpt a dragon in flight, supported by tree branch that is brushing past the tip of its wing, without a care for gravity and weight. They'll sculpt free-floating jewelry chains, delicate as a human hair, floating in mid-air, where an experienced physical sculptor would properly merge such things with the surface.
Another issue I've seen with alot of 3D modelers is depth of detail. On a GW Space Marine, detail has alot of depth, so as layers of paint go on, it's still there. I've bought some 3d printed models, and had to put the lightest of light under coats on, otherwise you lose detail on the model as it has no depth. They forget these models are to be painted, and that needs to be taken into account.
Me as a scrub noob painter: "Oh wow this mini figure is so incredibly detailed!" ~dips into a pot of contrast paint~
Abso-frikking-lutely. The more details, the better my "painting" with Contrasts looks. Easy! No Space Marines here, please...
That's a good point; the Contrast style paints work well with hyper detailed minis. I was always put off trying to paint Corvus Beli's Infinity minis; but some Contrast paint will really sink in to all the fine lines.
@@euansmith3699 that's right. I play Infinity and was always terrified by the detailing on the minis, but my anxiety over them reduced a lot once I started getting to grips with contrast-style paints, as well as bit obsessing over every single detail. I know I'm not doing them studio-level justice, but at the same time I can now table some decent-looking, *painted* minis when I play, and that's hugely satisfying
@@andrewbeeching1240 Angel Giraldez's insane paint jobs on Infinity minis are a fabulous advert for the quality of the sculpting; but, boy, did they put me off trying to paint the minis myself. 🤪
@@euansmith3699 I know, right?! You get those photos of these amazingly realistic, detailed minis painted by Angel & Co. that look huge in the photos, then you go and buy the mini and realise it's the size of your little finger, and you wonder how - HOW?? - was it possible to paint the eyeliner above the eyes, that have the whites and iris and everything, when the eye on the mini is about 1mm across?? Hugely daunting, and to be honest, I could see that being something that counts against CB's sales to newer or less confident hobbyists. Until, that is, you learnt like I did to accept just slapping Guilliman Flesh or similar across all the facial features and call it a day. Win!!
It's not just a problem for painting the minis either. It also makes it harder to have a good focal point on the mini. Our eyes tend to focus on areas with higher detail, but only if that detail is surrounded by an area of less detail. If the entire mini is covered in intricate detail, you have to use different tricks to create a definite focal point on the model.
I completely agree. There's so many minis out there that are beautifully painted that I just don't even want to look at because my eyes don't have a place to land on them. There's a beauty to simpler minis.
It's like minis today are made to be appreciated from 2 inches and not 4 feet from the table. It's a big problem.
gw is horrible for that
well it's literally a "small" problem :D
@@TetsugakuSan That's why you have to get your camera's macro lens right up in the mini's personal space when you take pics for the intertubes.
Professional painters have taken over the hobby. It’s ruining it for the table top gamer. The additional details should be an add on bitz and not a part of the mini.
Or overdesign them and make them super detailed just to have an excuse to charge people so much for them
what is nice about painting less detailed minis, is being able to add details like texture with paint. this helped me grow more as a painter. being able to visualise whats not ion the sculpt and add it. great vid mate!
They're also just so much faster to paint!
Relicblade is such a fantastic game. Glad its getting some coverage here!
My favorite highly detailed minis are the ones that incorporate detail by having large surfaces of interesting texture, not lots of individual distinct objects. Especially with the abundance of recent paint lines designed to be applied quickly over textured surfaces, I would love to see more sculptors take that stance (it's one of the reasons why Bestiarum is one of my favorite sculptors). Really love the relic blade models and may look into picking some up for myself!
A lot of these excess details used to come in the form of extra bits in a box of minis. They weren't by any means necessary for the completion of the model but it was up to you to decide how much additional flair you wanted to have for a sergeant or hero.
Thats one of the things I like most about certain patreons. Some of them go waaay overboard, but some (Like one page rules) strike a very good balance of detain and paintability.
I used to feel that way about One Page Rules but their Sisters of Battle collection is atrocious in my opinion, the models are way too detailed for how small they are
@@kaci8822 OPA himself is worried about that response. But the Battle Sisters (now called Blessed Sisters to be a bit more "legally distinct") were supposed to be overly detailed to match their real world design inspiration. The upcoming Human Empire models are much more simplified (he showed off the renders for them in the recent Hangout Stream on the official channel), and that is the style he wants for units.
@@KnTenshi2 I'd been a patron for over a year and looking forward to the Battle Sisters line the most out of anything, I saw the previous Battle sisters sculpts and was decently impressed by those but this release felt like an unnecessary and fundamental shift from previous works. The designs themselves didn't make sense for printing on a fundamental level with tassels, trims, and detail; and trying to paint all that was even worse. I'm more than happy to talk with folks from OPR but as of now I'm out. Hopefully the Human Empire is sweet, wish 'em the best of luck with it.
I feel like there is room for both. And the beauty of today is you can pick the one you want. It's ok to want to do and paint super detailed pieces that can be admired from up close. It's also ok to make pieces that are highly stylized that look good from 4 feet away.
I love how vibrant you went with these, they look like they will be so much fun to play with. Sean's sentiment is beautiful and to me is exactly what the dynamic should be, a relationship that doesn't try to overshadow either party, the sculpt and paint job should complement one another in a way that is harmonious, and I think both of you accomplished that goal fantastically here.
Man, Sean is such a stand up guy. I ordered a few minis from him about a year ago, and he included a bookmark with a little doodle and thank-you note on it. The man spreads joy, and I'm here for it.
I've deliberately moved towards a very similar mindset when making my models. I used to make perfect geometrical symmetry, model everything in an engineer-like manner, measure shit to the micrometer. I had to create a solution for the endless detail-on-detail compulsion that I too suffered at the time. The first step away from this was the "Cube of Detail". When sculpting, I always had a 0.2mm cube in the scene. When you print stuff at the 0.05mm layer line height, 0.2mm is slightly more than the absolute minimum required to have a wash or drybrush catch on the detail. So when going for those detail adding passes, I brought the cube near the details so I'd stop myself from worrying about stuff smaller than that.
A big breakthrough away from this mini detail obsession was when I made a copy of the GW Angron kit. I essentially just made the basic armor shapes, and then hand sculpted the details on top. It took less time, and it still after printing, looks just as good.
Other two deviations I've made away from the insane detail-on-detail obsession since then has been to increase the size Cube of Detail to 0.3mm, and having another cube the size of 1cm3. That's roughly the side of a fingernail. That gives a better idea on how much details do I really want on a surface overall. Float the 1cm cube over, look at the details. Yeah it looks in the software like there's plenty of room to throw shit in, but the thing is that I'm looking at it so closely that the model should be printed at 75mm to match. There is no need to fuss over details on every surface, and it's just a waste of time for both the painters or hobbyists who want to use the models, as well as you as the designer of said model.
YES, THANK YOU! I've been lamenting this side of the hobby for a while now, it was about time a professional painter did the same. I see a lot of people, especially on YT, promoting "heavily detailed" minis as if it's the main feauture that makes them appealing. I want simpler models, where I can practice basic and new skill, not incomprehensible, tangled messes of stuff compressed into 2cms worth of plastic.
I'm in the process of painting that display model you showed in the intro, queen of malice from creature caster. The ammount of details is insane. There is simply no end to it and I feel like getting nowhere.
I really love the interviews in your recent videos. They're so interesting to see the painting as well as get insight into something I've never seen or thought of.
Thank you! This is a huge problem in the 3d print world. Artists are only constrained by their imagination and often compete for detail and complexity. Yes it looks very cool but you print a squad and realize this level of detail will take a month to paint. Archvillian minis creates some insanely detailed minis and ive printed very few and painted almost none because of it.
Man, Relicblade is such an awesome game, glad to see you jumping into it, many hours of fun await. Also fun to see a sort of retro-style paint job on these sort of retro-style models. A cool combination of old and new.
Sean seems like a great guy as well, my first Relicblade order included a hand-written note from him, which surprised and delighted me.
I think Frostgrave minis are those kinds that have just the right amount of detail. Not too much and not too little! And the early 2000s gw minis.
I agree; North Stars minis for Frostgrave, Stargrave, Rangers of Shadowdeep, Silver Bayonet, and Oathmark all hit the sweet spot fro me. 👍
I design fantasy football miniatures for printing and "paintability "is something I'm constantly working to improve on ever since I listened to one your podcasts with Miniac, (also to make edges less sharp!), those insights really helped me to make better sculpts for my customers, going by the feedback I get (there's always room to improve) , so I wanted to say thank you
Trust me, Broutefoin is a king in fantasy football miniatures !
Where can you find your designed minis?! I'm looking at getting into Blood Bowl and want to use some of the billions of printed sets I've found, but by the sound of your design philosophy I'd like to use yours!
@@2WARDEN2 you can find me as Brutefun
I had a chance to chat with Sean a few years ago at Adepticon and thought his perspective was really refreshing and interesting. Every part of his game has an intentionality about it, from the nice hardcover rulebook to the amount of details on the figures. You can really tell he's a fan first and makes the kind of objects he would want to own as a hobbyist.
Absolutely in the same boat! I love seeing the wicked detail that people are sculpting, but I do not enjoy painting them.
As a traditional miniature sculptor that can’t keep up with the level of detail found in digitally sculpted and printed minis, this makes me hopeful that my skills are worth improving and still have value. Great video!
I’ve been sculpting miniatures in blender for about a year now and honestly it’s nice to hear someone say they would rather have something simple. I’m still learning but I’m trying to keep “fun to paint” as design priority.
Really liked how you integrated the interview with the topic of the video and at the same time showing the painting process. You could say that was the smoothest blend of the video!
1) great video
2) great that he took time to talk about his ideas with you for us to hear
3) that boar mini is amazing after you finished painting it
I'm amazed that Sean Sutter uses 3d design to make his minis; they really look like you can almost see his fingerprints on them.
His early sculpts are by hand, and he traditionally sculpted for a long time beforehand and it really shows in his current work.
@@GavinRich That figures 👍
Painted my second RelicBlade mini yesterday and it was awesome. Such a humane experience.
Face, arms, hair, dress, belt, dagger, and one fancy bit. A potion bottle.
I actually had energy to paint the potion bottle because she didn't have a bunch of random crap like a book or a familiar or steampunk glasses or a laptop or a surfboard or whatever.
Simple. Clean. Fun.
One of the reasons why I cant paint chaos space marines. All their ornate armor-rims and jagged edges and greeble on everything make it really hard for me to paint them. Like I just get overwhelmed by the detail and it stops being fun to me.
The nice thing about being a Eldar player in 40k is that while our models are small, they emphasize graceful curves and clean designs, not many (other than YOU corsairs) have a ton of fiddly straps and stuff
Adding these interviews, like you did with the boltgun video is really nice. It has the similar feeling of a podcast and hobby day with my friends.
I love that spin in your chair intro on every video. I hope you never change it. It'll be a sad day in the world if you do. 😂
fully agree, although a full/weird backpack on an otherwise reasonable model (the new brettonian) isn't really comparable IMO.
I've loved watching you since you first came on the scene...it's been like revisting my 30 plus year journey with painting in just a few years...obviously with the internet you guys can progress faster..but you've come to so many realizations with material, technique, and now miniature styles that I did on my journey...only you've done in in about a 1/6 of the time 😄. Keep having fun on your journey.
Excellent demo on the painting. Agreed on the issue of excess detail, which actually also is a real problem in things like movies or CG animated films where you get these overly complicated spaceships, monsters, mecha etc. It gets to the point where when you are watching the action scenes, you want to start singing "Kibbles and Bits and bits and bits.."
Big flat areas are very tricky when you not a master of layering like you and Miniac.
Not everyone is a pro-painter or has the time to blow out a dozen hours per miniature. The high detail makes it SOOO MUCH EASIER to paint when you is a Slapchop-based technique.
Basically, you have to use an airbrush to shade or screw around with Speedpaint/Contrast paint and overbrushing until it doesn't look splotchy.
Really lovely video. I love the enthusiasm of Sean Sutter but also your energy and passion.
Looking forward for more relic blade... please.
This is an issue that I absolutely feel very strongly about.
There are a lot of artists (very talented artists) who are making models designed to be printed as miniatures which have details which are far to small for a miniature. When I started making my miniatures I spent a lot of time printing my prototypes and checking how they looked as actual miniatures. I took a lot of time getting my body ratios to a place where I was happy with their proportions as an actual miniature.
How we perceive scale on a screen is very different from how we perceive scale and proportions of a small object in our actual hand.
I did originally open a store page with MyMiniFactory (bad experience) and I feel that they contribute a lot to this problem of overly detailed models which do not make for good miniatures providing a realistic and enjoyable painting experience. I felt a lot of pressure to produce miniatures with extreme levels of detail (bad miniatures) as it was only those types of models which I saw them promoting and helping market.
This is hurting the 3D printed miniature industry as it damages customer confidence. When you see an extremely cool looking model, buy it and then print it only to discover that a lot of the detail does not show up in the print you feel cheated. This negative feeling only grows when you try painting the model and find it impossible to paint well.
When I am making a model I want my customers to feel good about their purchase, find them easy to print and feel good about their choice to 3D print. I want them to enjoy painting them and be left with a painted model that, no matter what their skill level, they feel really proud of.
I think these minis are absolutely fantastic... not burdening them with 1000 tiny pieces of equipment actually really helps the basic forms to breathe, and gives them such lovely clean silhouettes
I've been a Harry's customer for ever!!! So glad they're sponsoring my favorite content creator.
I disagree. Large, open areas are the boring parts of a mini, like the chore you have to complete to get to the good bits. The detail is where the fun is. I think it would be horrible for painters to go back to the bad old days of detail-poor minis. And metal? No thanks.
This is a really cool interview! Been supporting Relicblade before Kickstarter days, so glad that Sean is gettign visbility!
It's why I have started to get Into canvas Painting. I find it's more freeing when u manage to wrap your head around your doing literally all the work yourself
Your paint job on the man-boar is awesome, it looks great. Thanks for including the snippet of interview with Sean!
I like the details. I enjoy the challenge of painting the different textures, materials, ect.
I think you have great perspective on the mini scene. I’m right there with you. I have several minis I’ve started but not finished. I need to get MY mojo back!
RelicBlade models are my all time favorite to paint. Sean is a wizard.
The increased level of detail on minis can really be tracked to the increase in the accessibility to quality 3D printers; now that more people have access to printers that can print quality resin minis, there are more and more companies putting out huge releases of 3D printable tabletop minis. One major issue with this is that a lot of the sculptors doing this work come from a video game design background (often looking to pick up some extra work on the side) and have never picked up a brush in their life and it shows in their sculpts. As you said in the video a lot of the renders look phenomenal, but if you print them out the detail is too shallow, the weapons are too thin to be durable at all, and the model ends up being a nightmare to paint.
Thank god someone is speaking about it, I remember dying inside when I saw the Veil touched for the first time, those are the most over design anti painter sculpts that I have ever seen
I thought the same, but after watching some yourubers paint them up, i think theyre so over detailed that it all kinda blends together and can be ignored and used as texture if that makes sense
@@chandlercampbell3356 yeah i just see it as texture and a perfect spot for contrast paint. I don't think this kind of hatred is warranted. I think it might just be difficult for Ninjon to use his painting style on such detailed miniatures.
ikr? Miniwargaming Dave is a valued and popular member of the community so people get a bit defensive when you give negative reviews of his passion project, but I also remember the first time seeing the Veil Touched. "What the hell is that?" was more or less the only thing that ran through my mind. It's like someone told the designers they get paid by the detail. Extremely detrimental to the overall design. I'm an artist from a different field, and we always say readability comes first.
@@aenlandril4353 Oh dont get me wrong, I dont hate them or Dave, I like them both, but I don't think they are ideal for some painting styles, and they are kinda busy 😅
Can't help but agree here. They're bad for the amount of stuff 😂
one quote ive always liked is "they started designing it and never fuckin stopped"
applies to waay too many things
I love the lower detail minis. Might have to get into Relicblade based on those minis. I'm so tired of 50% of the time I spend painting a mini being trying to find a way to efficiently go over eight million little details and trims and things. I painted a mini recently with the standard big shoulder pads which I don't mind, but then above and below the shoulder pads are these metal vents sticking out at either side. And the ones on top aren't OVER anything, it's just a vent sticking out perpendicular to the rest of the shoulder. I'm looking at this while I'm painting and thinking "the hell is that for?" Does it look cool? Nope. Does it make sense? Nope. Does it enhance the silhouette of the model? Nope.
So why did they do it?
I have no earthly idea. My guess is when the sculptors are working on the models in their sculpting program they get too zoomed in to the model and it still looks like a blank canvas for them. But it's not meant to be a canvas for them. It's meant to be a canvas for us. There's obviously extremes that can go either way. Nobody wants a knight that just looks like a blob of plastic with no details at all. But more companies need to consider the painter if they want to get more people into this hobby.
My first model I did was Cawl, I love the complex ones, it’s time consuming and slow going, but the completion is 10x better once finished.
I get the argument though.
You need to cover our stuff Ninjon, you know it's true!
AH!! Been saying this for years haha!! Totally agree! You can clearly spot when artists are coming from video game, or have never printed a miniature before.
I'm a sculptor (Vae Victis Miniatures), and before doing STL files, I worked on resin and pewter models, cleaarly helped me learn what works and what doesn't.
If you want to put 5000 details, just go sculpt 75mm or bigger scale, imo!!
I’m SO glad someone else is saying this! It’s the reason I’ve not bothered CMON’s (misuse of) kickstarter for White Death. The models look like a nightmare to paint. Thx no thx.
As a mini sculptor I can confirm this, and also that clients often aren't painters as well, and judge the quality of the work by the amount of detail in a render than the quality of "paintability" of the details. In case of the lack of detail, they ask for more. there's no way out. I personally choose simpler minis to paint when I have to.
I really like this more vibrant highlighting and shading strategy - thanks!
I actually 100% agree with this. They look amazing will all the detail sometimes but yeah completely derail momentum alot of the time. And then alot of minis (looking at you GW ) are way too busy and it ruins not only the painting experience but the look in general.
I am loving these painting + interview style videos! keep it up!
yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss! Big Love for splashing down on some Relicblade my man!! I couldn't agree more!
This was a really great video! I really dig this alternate presentation format. I like learning how to paint from you Jon but also learning about other products and their creators. Very cool!
A friend and I were just looking into Relicblade, debating where to start. Just ordered this morning, in case your video sends a horde and cleans them out.
It’s why things like the classic orc boyz kit are perfect to me. Just enough detail that’s all visible from 3 ft back
Ninjon working on metal models! One of Us! One of Us!
100% agree. I got started painting heroquest models from the 1990's and it's a night and day difference. Many of these just feel like someone made a 'cool model' and didn't bother to think if people can fit a brush in a .5mm crevice.
Sean Sutter is my wargaming hero. He sculpts, draws and wrote the rules
one detail i really like about these models is they have their off hand grabbing the pommel, bring some realism to their fighting techniques
These characters look like they're straight out of a comic book or a mid-90s cartoon! They honestly remind me of the Yu-Gi-Oh action figures I had as a kid and feel like a breath of fresh air after seeing a lot of grim dark styles lately.
This makes me want to make some sort of bubblegum punk rogue
I think this might be the first time I've been sold on a promoted miniatures product! I love the minis and wanna try the game!!
If you like less cluttered models look out for boutique mini companies with white metal minis and analogue sculptors. Try Hasslefree Miniatures or Heresy Miniatures for instance, or the Arcworlde stuff from Warp Miniatures.
Such a pet peeve of mine when you can tell a mini was sculpted with no consideration for the painter in mind. A lot of the details don't even make sense! The sculpts are just one of the reasons why I love Relicblade. The Destroyer Pig is my favorite even though it's hard to choose!
I like Sean
I dig it. And, yes, I'm tired of over detail on miniatures where I'm expected to field 10-20 of them PER UNIT.
That's a lot of ego on the sculptor's part.
I personally prefer more simplistic minis when I'm painting, especially hand sculpted ones because the the sculptor can physically see if something is too small and detailed to paint (it'd also be a pain in the ass to sculpt something so tiny you couldn't paint it).
tbh i think its why i love the eldar so much rn, they have very few details relatively speaking, and the details they do have dont make painting a pain
I am just finishing a 1980s Warhammer Fantasy Army that I started 30 years ago. Orcs, Elves, and Dwarfs, no two the same, and near on 300 pieces. The paint then was Humbrol Enamel, which is hard work, but I started with that paint system and have to finish with it. Things have to be painted and shadows mixed. Small details are hard graft.
I agree the new models just get fussier and fussier. I can't wait to change to water based paints, varnishes, and washes, as the new models demand it. Can't be done any other way. The pure volume of "bits" to do is astonishing. Even airbrushes can only do so much too, and much of that is to provide undertones.
I do love the new models but they are expensive and demand more and more application to look half good.
My next painting model army adventure will be Bolt Action WW2, because great results can be achieved without excessive painting demands. Painting should be fun and a stress relieving hobby, not some burden with a high work load.
Love your channel. Exhibition painting is all very good, but most people would just like to make a nice job of their models. Making a nice job of it is where everyone would love some help with.
We can add to the mix "we should have perhaps stopped added weapons 4 weapons ago". I mean a certain company is doing that even with the infantry, compare a certain unit that is Desolating with a unit that is around since forever and had clear weapons that Devastated.
I got back into miniature painting recently but i regret starting a death guard army because they are so full of details and the details changes from model to model, one will have maggots of all sizes creeping out of every single nook, cranny and opening, another is filled with cracks and sores, ill be stuck painting one figure thinking im soon done and i just run into more and more little detail
I got a Harry's blade as part of a store promotion, I was surprised how much better they are compared to the competition and became a paying customer.
I agree with a lot of this. I have been painting a lot of warhammer goblins, but have trimmed off a lot of the extra details like symbols or extra stuff sticking off them. I wanted them to be simpler to paint and not so busy looking.
This is a fantastic video. Great job showcasing Relicblade and this paint line. Loved the interview, also.
Thank you for sharing this view as a producer of Minis this is super valuable to me
Slaying the grey right now!! Who hoo!!
«This is a gargoyle, this is an abomination.»
Succinctly quoted
I love Relicblade! Thanks for showing off Sean's work.
That's why I love my middle and oldhammer collection, fun to paint nice from a distance and don't take 5 hours to base coat 15 different colored details
RIP Sean's spider.....thanks for another great video
As someone losing their eyesight, yes, over-detailing every mini, from your basic troop to the most exquisite hero-character, is quite frustrating.
Shout out to BAM who make models that are a joy to paint!
Great video! The interview and paint footage together is a cool idea. How many of us listen to podcasts while we paint right?
I know a guy from Scotland developing a board game with miniatures with the exact same mindset you describe here. Creating miniatures that look great on the table and not just while in a 3D modelling program.
Thanks for the mention (I'm the 'guy from Scotland) and for bringing this video to my attention. It's great to know that other people share this view and it's not just me.
I don't find this to be a problem personally but to each their own.
The minis look great. I'll certainly look into relicblade ☺️👍
I've been buying a lot of STLs of My Mini Factory to create some custom Kings of War armies, and I definitely feel this. There is a lot of cool-yet-overdesigned stuff out there that looks great as a render but not so great at miniature scale. Not to mention such things can be a nightmare to support and print and you're liable to break a bunch of bits off while removing the supports. I'm gravitating towards models that have good silhouettes for tabletop and are easy to paint... which has made quickly blasting through entire regiments of infantry and such quite enjoyable.
My Husband use to have a store on MMF but he found it to be a bad experience and switched to Cults3D. He felt that MMF contributed a lot to this problem and were only really promoting models which had excessive detail which made him feel preasured to do the same. It is not some thing he will ever do as he wants all of his models to provide a great painting experience. It is improtant when desinging miniatures that you do not lose sight of how they will be once printed at scale.
Some miniatures i always enjoy painting are reaper miniatures, they remind me of old school games workshop
Good lesson, and I agree about the over engineering of minis. I think 3d printing would be WAY cooler if the people producing STLs would make minis look more like the thicc, hand-sculpted glory that got me into this hobby. There's a place for it all.
Including a conversation with the creator of a game you showcase is a great feature.
Its especially true in the board game space where people aren't even painting.