Drachinifel what would have happened if the Argentine Navy had come out in force and were somehow in a position to fight the British Navy? Would they sink the British task force or would they be wiped out? Say this takes place before the Belgrano got sunk.
The Norwegians ordered the Bjørgvin Class costal defense battleships in 1912, however they were “purchased” by the Royal Navy in 1914. What effect would they have had if they were returned to Norway after the war and specifically if they had been sent instead of the Eidsvold class at the first battle of Narvik? Assuming the problem with the hms glatton was fixed.
There are countless historical occasions in which downtrodden and outgunned revolutionaries resorted to weapons discarded as obsolete or surplus by the "powers" to fight off the yokes of oppression.
@@KristerAndersson-nc8zo Not true at all. The rich smugglers were being oppressed by the English. Their rebellion set a long precedent of rich criminals being in charge of the country, with the occasional Washington, Lincoln, or Roosevelt doing a rather decent job of running the ship to distract from the various embedded corruption in the upper echelons. Oddly enough, we yanks have a good and well-deserved reputation for being rather hard to corrupt... excepting any elected office. And any office appointed by those elected.
@@garzooma powder was difficult to produce in quantity, not only that but at least in the British Navy a budget was set for each Warship before it sailed, from this the Caption had to provision the stores including gunpowder & hire the crew, in short there wasn't a lot of money left over to buy extra powder & shot this meant that most gun crews never got to live fire their guns in "training" before actual battle.
The victory of Bonhomme Richard over Serapis are taught in American schools, but all the details about the personality of Jones or the involvement of the French court to say nothing of the Alliance firing at every vessel in range are never mentioned. History that deserves to be remembered.
To be fair we all know the contributions of the French to our victory. And every ship involved in this battle either did nothing or actively tried to kill John Paul Jones. So all those other ships add nothing.
I actually hadn't heard of Bonhomme Richard until I tried to join the Navy. My naval history up until that point came from my dad telling me the adventures of various submarines.
The Royal Navy really should look into some sort of precautions against enemy fire detonating magazines in the North Sea, seems like it might come in useful in a hundred and fifty years or so....
An often repeated death of ships of all class an many wars.The result of a bomb through the deck shell through the hull the magazine being the end of all.
"You need to roll 14 or higher to make this grenade throw, and you only get 3 shots" *6* *9* *20* "The ship fucking EXPLODES, unleashing hell and all it's beasts below decks, and kills just about everyone on board"
When salvos were timed in minutes and distance was measured in 10's of yards and at most a couple hundred other than very long ranging ranging fire where you only hoped to hurt their rigging a little bit .... =-)
Jeffrey Root Battle doctrine is not a step-by-step manual, it’s a basic guideline of what to do and when. If you follow doctrine religiously you won’t be able to seize an opportunity when it presents itself.
What an interested character he has, but the battle is even more weird. The guy who threw the grenades deserve the credit for winning the battle though.
John Paul Jones was probably the most unlikely person to end up as one America's greatest naval heros. Even more strange, he only managed to reach the rank of Admiral by joining the Russian Navy. The book "John Paul Jones: America's First Sea Warrior" (Joseph Callo) is a great book about his life, not only his well known naval achievements, but also his personal life, which was almost exciting as his naval battles. I believe it's now available as an ebook and in print for about the same price. There are several other books about Jones with deceptively similar titles, but none are as comprehensive as Callo's tome.
@@jagerbombasstic You're welcome. I read it just after it came out in the early 90's, and it was a real page turner for me. I've read several other biographies about Jones with those similar titles and, while they weren't bad, they weren't as historically complete as Callo's book.
@@stanleyrogouski I don't know about the last time, but Jones was in command of a force in the Russo-Turkish war when kept the Turkish navy near Ochakov on the run and provided shore bombardment for the invasion of Kinbern and laid siege to Ochakov. He was under Admiral Potemkin's command, and Potemkin and other Russian admirals feared Jones was going to rise in command, given his known abilities and the rumor that he and Catherine II had more than a professional relationship, if you catch my drift. Potemkin was constantly sending back action reports with filled with lies about Jones's supposed cowardice in the face of the Turks. He was finally recalled to Moscow under the pretext of being transferred to the Baltic Fleet when, in reality, he was put in a staff position Potemkin knew he would hate. Even though Jones was awarded the Order of St. Anne in June, 1788, he knew he was being forced out, and returned to Paris just before Christmas of the same year. He learned his lesson about serving in a foreign fleet from this, turning down the offer of command of the French revolutionary fleet in 1790.
@@stanleyrogouski He was actually 45 in 1792, the year of his death. You might be thinking of his age when he was in Russian service. Jones had pretty much burned all his bridges in the US Navy and knew he had no chance for promotion there. His Russian service was strictly a business proposition, much as his service in the US Navy had been. Jones wanted tow things - to be in a fight and be in command of a fleet. I've read of Kościuszko's advice to Jones about foreign service. It's not clear why he turned down the French offer, but I suspect he didn't want to choose what might be the losing side in another civil war. I think Spain was also interested in Jones, but he had developed the reputation, using an American football metaphor, of being a top quarterback, but not being much of a team player and hard to work with. His chance of a top command in a stable navy was just about zero, even with his acknowledged talent. Sad end to what could have been a very successful career as admiral of the fleet somewhere.
@@stanleyrogouski Jones was certainly no believer in democracy, and he did run his ships like an absolute monarchy. Nelson was 47 at the time of Trafalgar, and Jones would have been 58. Both Jones and Nelson would have been considered elderly at a time when the average life expectancy was 34. The last thing Jones wanted to do was die peacefully in bed, so I imagine he would have envied Nelson's death if he had still been around.
@@michaelt.5672 as someone who personally lacks "people skills"... It's about not being able to say the right thing at the right time. It's not easy to be a silver tongued-devil. I personally can't do it.
There's actually two countries between Canada and Mexico - Retardistan in the north and Inbredistan in the south - technically the unofficial border runs along the Mindless-Dickwit line. "Whut we got here, is uh failure to realise she's your sister..." Seriously they actually asked Inbredistanis what they thought about the species Homo Sapiens going extinct and the general consensus was pretty much "they had a good run..." And these people have M134 miniguns... What could *possibly* go wrong?
@@rosiehawtrey If you're a conservative you know that we've become soft as a species and frankly deserve to be wiped out, if you're a liberal it's about the best thing you could possibly do for the environment. So doesn't really matter where you stand on the political spectrum, one thing we should all be able to agree on is that the extinction of the human species would be a good thing.
They didn’t teach those parts of John Paul Jones pre-Revolutionary history in American schools, or at least the one I attended. Thanks as always, Drach!
I took American history in the late 50's up to my graduation in 1964. It may be the period I took history compared to later times, but we were taught all about commanders like John Paul Jones, David Porter, and Oliver Hazard Perry. Given the size of the Continental Navy, and the rather pitiful force we put together in 1812, we didn't have a lot of early American naval heroes, so our history lessons spent some time on them. I credit Mr. Harrison's seventh grade history class, with his riveting tales of John Paul Jones, as being responsible for the start of my lifelong interest in naval history.
We were essentially taught the highlights. He “beat” the Brits in their own waters and gave a cool action hero line. This was late 90s early aughts and the early days of standardized testing results being directly tied to school funding. So we were being taught to pass a test at the end of the year so the school wouldn’t be defunded. I didn’t get that sort of in depth class experience until college.
@@whatsoperadoc7050 I was long before the days of standardized testing. It seems like the goal now is for students to know a little about more things but not learn any one thing in depth. Back then, teachers made up their own tests, and teachers like Mr. Harrison's tests went into a lot more detail about naval history because he really liked naval history. He probably taught less about the other military phases of the Revolutionary War and War of 1812, but I like the idea that teachers were allowed to teach about what they liked best. It made the classes a lot more interesting when the teacher was invested in the subject rather than helping the students pass a standardized test.
I've come to understand my fortune- I attended public schools as well, but I had some of the best teachers ever. I learned most of this, somehow. The detail and presentation make it seem new, though. Thanks, Drach.
@@williammurdoch468 My first ten years were in Catholic schools, back when they had the deserved reputation offering a superior education, at least to those planning to go to college. Public schools back then still offered a good education, just not expecting students to perform at the same levels demanded by the nuns. I was lucky to have Mr. Harrison, a "lay" teacher and a navy vet, as my history teacher for two years. If he was around today, God rest his soul, I suspect he'd be doing the same sorts of videos as Drach. They would have been a heck of a collab.
HMS Serapis wasn't broken up, she was given over to the french who managed to "restore" her and then in 1781 while sailing near Madagascar she wrecked after a sailor dropped a lantern into a tub of brandy which proceeded to light the spirits locker on fire and as the crew were attempting to get the situation under control the fire burned through the locker and into the powder magazine which promptly exploded and ripped off the stern of the ship. Thankfully only 8 of the 223 men aboard her died, with the rest of the crew being picked up by a french flagged privateer which dropped them off at the french colony on Madgascar.
Still ended up in Madagascar in a better condition than the 2nd Pacific Squadron. Is it wrong that my phone aurocorrect now automatically picks up 2nd Pacific Squadron... 😁😁
@@NashmanNash Well, Seydlitz got the honor? of contributing one of her guns to Kormoran... which was still installed when Kormoran fought Sydney. So... part of Seydlitz was on board Kormoran when Kormoran's mine hold explosion blew the back half off the ship.
John Paul Jones is one of the most interesting American sea captains of the 18th century! He had a very high opinion of himself and considered anyone who disagreed with him to be his enemy, which is why he was never seriously considered for promotion. But he was brave, an excellent seaman, and knew how to "pull the lions tail" as the American privateers used to say. If you read his biography, you'll understand why he got nowhere when he was given the job of "modernizing" the Russian Navy. Because he thought the aristocracy were stupid, he never tried to understand them. Unlike Franklyn who knew how to charm the nobility with flattery and get things done.
Ben Franklin managed to once, with a straight face, say " "If all monarchs ruled with your benevolence, republics would never be formed." He said this to _King Louis XVI of France,_ who was at that point his ally fighting the British and who was about six years removed from being the direct target of the French Revolution and beheaded for being an out of touch ultramonarch. Ben Franklin was the _King of Bullshit._
@@InchonDM Indeed! As he told Adams; flattery will get him further in France's court then bluntness. Lets face it, if it hadn't been for old Ben France never would have helped us gain our independence!
For some reason, I am thinking that JPJ was a not terribly distant cousin of that famous Highland firebrand MacAdder and his even more infamous cousin Blackadder...
That explains where he got his blatant disregard for his officers. I could see John Paul Jones killing a British officer's favorite messanger pigeon and serving it in the officer's mess.
@@themadhammer3305 Man I'd play the hell of that game. If only to watch the butthurt that begins to flow as a 1st rate is taken down by a couple of sloops because the guy in control "plays for fun" aka is complete ass at boats.
@@stanklepoot Professionals know "HOW THINGS ARE DONE" usually for good reason, can sometimes be outmatched by fools with no concern for "Proper" methods.
@@Vaderi300 Another way to look at things is "adapt and overcome." Cochrane wasn't exactly a by the book kind of guy. I'm sure some of his attacks would have been considered lunacy by more than a few of his peers. "Proper" methods are typically a good place to start, but they can end up being chains that bind the more innovative mind, or a crutch for those hesitant to put their reputations on the line. If you lose, but do everything by the book, your reputation tends to remain intact.
Pearson: "Have you struck your colors sir?" JPJ: "I have not yet BEGUN to fight!!" (*a few hours later*) JPJ: "Have YOU struck your colors sir?" Pearson: Well I don't know. Our main mast is gone, our mizzen mast is gone, and upon the whole, you could say we HAVE struck our flag!"
@@rebelgaming1.5.14 I'm not sure what the USS Constitution has to do with John Paul Jones. The latter having died 5 years before the former was launched. But no matter... I don't know about invincible, but I do know that she was damn lucky when she was being chased by five British warships. The wind dropped down for two and a half days, and her crew "towed" her from boats using kedge anchors, and also by wetting the sails to catch whatever little wind there was available. This went on for 57 hours before the British gave up the chase. When it comes to a strategic retreat, some say that "Discretion is the better part of valor". I say that it is the better part of good sense. But she was (and is) a tough old girl, and had come out of a few knife fights in pretty good shape. And she actually came out of retirement to fight in the war of 1812. Having been discounted as "too slow" (she just needed a good cleaning) for active service. She had made her debut in the Quasi-war in 1799, and then fought again in the Tripolitan war. But as before, she benefited from luck in both of these engagements when her rigging became entangled with the Guerriere, and then same thing happened with the Java, which effectively held both of them at bowpoint to her (making the bow guns the only guns that the British ships could bear down on the Constitution), while the Constitution was able to fire her broadsides "To great effect" as they say. It could have easily gone the other way around. But was this luck? Not hardly, you don't outrun five of your equals just on luck. And the Constitution showed superior seamanship in holding the Guerriere and the Java at bay while pounding the hell out of them. And don't think for a moment that the British didn't try everything that they could think of to get free. In all three of these engagements she had the better trained crew, and was better prepared (with the exception of the Shannon's gun crew. Which gunnery-wise, was simply the best ship on the planet at the time). So while "Fortune favors the bold", it also smiles upon the well-prepared. One of the great books (from the American point of view) on the fledgling American Navy is "The Naval War of 1812", by Theodore Roosevelt, and is available for free at Project Gutenberg: www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9104 Roosevelt's argument is that the American crews were better trained. This has some truth to it, since during the slow motion chase (kinda like the OJ chase, only slower), the Constitution was being fired upon by the Brits but they couldn't hit her. So if your target is effectively being towed across the ocean, and you still can't hit it, you've got a serious gunnery problem. Our navy also favored longer ranged guns (go figure), that threw a greater weight (good thinking there, too), and declined the invitation to get in close enough to their targets to make things "sporting" (just practical thinking if you ask me). So while not reading the British point of view, I understand it that their take is that we were crafty devils that didn't fight fair. And if you take Teddy's point of view, we were just good clean American kids who could shoot straight. I suspect that it's somewhere in between. In any case, "The Naval War of 1812" is a great book. and is extremely readable and enjoyable. At one time a copy of it was included with every new ship built. Kind of like floor mats at the car dealership. And for those that might say that "at best" we ended up in a tie. I don't agree. We went into the war with the demand that the British stop impressing our sailors and stealing our ships (Roosevelt makes a great argument that the victory at Trafalgar was as much an American victory as it was a British one because of all of the Americans that fought in the battle). During the negotiations for the treaty of Ghent, we wanted concessions from the British, and saner heads prevailed. The Brits wanted concessions (land) as well. To this, Wellington famously said, and I paraphrase, "you really ought to take some territory first before demanding it". But after the war of 1812, impressment of our sailors, as well as the impounding of our ships, stopped entirely. Much of this was because the Brits (as well as our unlucky Yanks) finally defeated Napoleon and they didn't need the large navy as before. But a large part of it was they got their nose seriously bloodied by an upstart navy. As to the foundation of our navy we were more than a little lucky. We had the French and the Tripolians convincing John Adams that we had to have a navy at just the right time. We had an outstanding captain in Stephen Decatur (the loss of the USS President notwithstanding), as well as his BFF Thomas Macdonough. Decatur's contribution was in building great warships, as well as fighting them. Should have stayed out of dueling however... Macdonough's contribution was creating his own navy from scratch in the backwoods of New York. Beating the British while being outnumbered and out-gunned in a brilliant recreation of a French tactic that didn't work out so well for the French. All the while stopping a major British invasion in the process. Which helped in a large part making any British demands for land in the treaty of Ghent rather moot.
@@MrWaalkman I might try to find it and pick a book up. Naval History, at least just below the surface level of it, has been my thing. Schools teach shit about the War of 1812, except for the fact that USS Constitution took down Guerriere, and that cannonballs bounced off the timber she was made of. Thank you for the enlightenment that American schools ignore. I did kinda figure out that the American Navy popped into Existence pretty much overnight when the Revolutionary War started, using privately owned scoolners (the class of ship's name is confusing to spell) and a larger number of Sloops and Cutters. I never knew who actually pioneered the US's Standing Dedicated Navy. Thank you for that as well.
Not only that, a pair USN ships would be named for him (a Forrest Sherman Class Destroyer and an Arleigh Burke Class Guided Missile Destroyer), and two other ships would be named Bonhomme Richard. The Essex Class Fleet Carrier, and the Wasp Class Amphibious Assault Ship. Funnily enough, the Bonhomme Richard and the John Paul Jones (the more recent ones obviously) would take part in symbolic escort duty as part of a search for the wreck of the original Bonhomme Richard. The wreck however, has still never been discovered.
@@stanklepoot what about the whole event strikes you as not lucky? sure, a crap ton of it was bad luck, but there certainly wasn't much skill involved on the American side of things.
@@Vaderi300 OK, first of all, you're just being disingenuous. When someone uses the term lucky, they're referring to good luck, and you know it. Secondly, you might want to be careful of falling into the trap of insulting the opponent...especially if the opponent ended up winning. I mean, Jones started out with an "ally" that was more likely to shoot at a friend than a foe, and some cannon that self-detonated, and the British still lost. Seriously, just how pathetic is the Royal Navy? They didn't just lose, but were captured, under those circumstances? See how easy that was?
He fought in the rain, and he fought in the sun, and he fought in the moonlight too! He fought with his knife, and he fought with his gun, And he fought till his blood ran through!
A very ugly truth. The U.S.NAVY does seem to attract the very best, and the most despicable that the same time. How my Father dispied the U.S.Navy in WWII, for petty and low things done. He was 1st MARINE DIVISION from Cape Gloucester to Peleliu.
To be fair it's kinda hard not to hit your own men when you are all intermingled with the enemy in one gigantic Death mosh pit. Seriously the whole "Fire on my position!!" Trope exists for a reason.
AE - it isn't *that* difficult. I live in a UK army town and the general consensus of the squaddies is that their Inbredistani counterparts couldn't hit a barn door from inside the barn. They had to paint recognition symbols on the Abrams tanks despite the fact that an Abrams looks completely different from a Russian tank, the Americans invariably managed to shoot at their own side, usually with DU FSDS rounds. They're also highly notable at being able to hit bright white UN vehicles with unerring accuracy while completely missing the enemy forces currently pasting said UN vehicles and proceeding to comprehensively slaughter maim and injure the only embedded veteran journalists within 200 clicks. The spirit of the Kamchatka is alive and well and flying an F16, probably thought Landrover had brought out its new Torpedo Boat 110. Still,at least when they're about we don't have to use the SA80.
@@rosiehawtrey the reason the US usually shoots at in tanks is because they keep confusing them with bunches of imperial storm troopers, some one has to be vigilant when it comes to the Galactic empire.
Fantastic video as always Drach. I absolutely loved this. And I thank you for the even handed assessment of John Paul Jones and his failings. To often in America we gloss over his quirks. But I still consider him the father of the American Navy, or at least one its fathers.
And we made this guy a hero. This is why I love this country: you could be a complete screw-up and yet we'll immortalize you for a well timed one-liner.
@Mike Markwell Thing is the way they taught us about him in school was basically that his ship was heavily damaged, the British captain told him to surrender, he said he hadn't begun to fight and then turned the whole fight around. They left out all the embarrassing stuff so he came off as a witty underdog.
How are you a complete screw up when you win? He may have been a real SOB, but the rest was pretty much a factor of him serving in a rebel navy with next to no resources. He sailed with defective cannons because they were the only ones he could afford that were theoretically suitable to the task. He set sail with privateers and a French captain with a questionable mental state because that was what was available to him.
@@stanklepoot Even keeping the captain of the Alliance so angry that he stayed with the fleet to kill Jones rather than sail off shows he learned from his earlier desertions. Without the Alliance firing in all directions likely the Brits don't strike.
My brother goes to the Naval Academy, so I got to see John Paul Jones’ crypt when I went up to visit him. My brother also got to do a summer cruise aboard the USS Bonhomme Richard.
Well you have to get the valuable freeing information in their brains early or they might start thinking problematic things, right? If people don't get told what to think as children, they might start reading history as it is and start thinking the wrong things and we wouldn't want that now. That might unravel the story
@@tommeakin1732 As Livy said, the purpose of history is to inspire the nation and provide examples for the current generation; without a useful narrative, history is just a set of dry and irrelevant observations. Why would anybody teach something contrary to the national interest?
I wore out crippled merchantmen using scrap weapons kicks the snot out of a first-class British ship of the line and you say that the Americans are incompetent what the hell does that make the British then?
Bill Smith It was mostly the British kicking the crap out of the bonhomme richard until some of those good ol fashioned Americans with their guns rained hot lead on their deck and killed most of the rigging crew until they got close enough to drop a grenade into the powder magazine. Not to discount the story, honestly one of the better pre ironclad engagements I’ve heard about, but for the solid majority of the fight the Americans were on the back foot, especially against the Serapis
The video mentions that Benjamin Franklin was something of a sponsor of JP Jones, who named his "new" ship in Franklin's honor. _Bonhomme Richard_ is "Good man Richard", in reference to the pseudonym "Poor Richard" (or "Richard Saunders") that Franklin used writing for his _Poor Richard's Almanack_ .
Great video! Jones success helped convince the French to support the US, which ultimately led to the defeat of Cornwallis at Yorktown, and victory. When Pierre Landais (a former officer in the French Navy) later sailed the Alliance back to the US, his officers decided he was insane and forcibly removed him from command. After an investigation he was dismissed from the service. The comment that JPJ couldn’t make admiral in the U S Navy was correct, but in fact there was no such rank. While there were plenty of generals, the rank of admiral was considered to be too aristocratic. Over the years this caused problems, such as settling disputes between senior captains, dealing with foreign navies, and Army generals. Various secretaries of the Navy pushed to create the rank, but Congress was adamant. The rank of rear admiral wasn’t created until 1862.
While John Paul Jones had a rather bellicose personality, and wasn't the kind of person you would want to get into an argument with; unless you were heavily armed, the Captain of the Alliance was positively crazy. When John Adams was acting as the American commissioner in France, he met Captain Pierre Landais on several occasions and described him this way in his diary: Captain Landais “is jealous of every Thing. Jealous of every Body . . . he knows not how to treat his officers, nor his passengers, nor any Body else. . . . There is in this man an Inactivity and an Indecisiveness that will ruin him. He is bewildered . . . an embarrassed Mind.” Later when visiting the Alliance before it set sail Adams wrote, “Landais will never accomplish any great thing. . . . This man . . . has a littleness in his mien and air. His face is small and sharp so that you form a mean opinion of him from the first sign.” Adams also noted that Captain Landais complained of imaginary plots against him. After the battle, Captain Landais admitted to a French Colonel that he wanted to help HMS Serapis sink the Bonhomme Richard so he could then take the Serapis himself. Here's a link to article on Captain Landais and his troubled career. allthingsliberty.com/2018/07/the-revolutionary-wars-most-enigmatic-naval-captain-pierre-landais/
Just read the article you kindly supplied; Captain Landais seems to have been a utter madman. I am quite puzzled that he never "accidentally" fell over board.
As of 2019 we've gone back to the stars-on-blue-feild jack. The Snake-on-Stripes is *probably* inaccurate anyhow as a representation of the first naval jack, being mainly based on an British Illustration of the 19th century. The first naval jack was most probably simply the stripes of the stars and stripes. I think that looks better, anyhow. The Snake-on-Stripes is still flown by the USS. Constitution and the Whitby Island, being the oldest service ships in the fleet, which were to fly the first naval jack under the 1980 regulations, before the "temporary" war on terror order made it the jack for all ships. Still shouldn't have that snake on it, though! I used to like the Gasden Flag, but then it came to have rather modern political connotations I don't care for. I actually think that the proper 1st Naval Jack (13 Red & White stripes) is actually a superior jack design since the stripes aren't added to every time we get a new state (well since like 1812 anyways, 15 stars & stripes was when we all collectively decided "yeah, no") so the jack could be used longer.
According to another comment I saw, yes on the way back home his officers came to the conclusion that he was insane and removed him from command. Later a comity would deem him unfit for command and he was discharged.
@@edwardteach3000 Wasn't he an already a disgraced ex-officer to begin with? Bringing him along in the first place was as bad of an idea as getting the cannons from a scrap yard.
@@CThyran What were Jones' alternatives? I mean, he could have set sail with 6 pounders that clearly weren't up to the task. Jones basically had two options: set sail with the equipment and personnel that he had, or not set sail at all. Given the results, I'm sure the British would have preferred the latter. Since Jones actually wanted to sail into harm's way, he chose the former.
@@stanklepoot Cottineau called him a coward afterwards (but lost the resulting duel). He then bullshitted his way back into command of the Alliance, somehow managed to make even more of a mess of being a Captain than Jones had (to the point of arresting his marine corps Captain and nearly murdering the man who'd helped him get command back over taking the first slice of pork), and was finally relieved of command by force in the middle of the Atlantic. When the ship arrived in America and was met by its new Captain (Barry), he locked himself in the Captain's quarters and had to be forcibly removed. He was put on trial and removed from the continental navy afterwards (as was the Lieutenant who'd commanded for the second half of the journey across the Atlantic - not sure why, since he seems to have done a reasonably good job during the brief period he was in command).
Great telling of the story. There are some great US Navy stories from the war against the Barbary Pirates and the two lake campaigns vs Britain. Those last two are good stories and the only time the US and Britain could fight on nearly equal terms.
Going to send this to my brother (a USN Petty officer) and a few junior officers and sailors I helped through the sign up process. The warts and all on John Paul Jones is *very* different from what's in the Blue Jacket's Manual to my knowledge.
Well, now I know where Starfleet Battles rule (G22.223) came from. (This rule states that there is a 1% chance that a "Legendary Captain" will, on the event of his ship being destroyed, simply turn up on an enemy ship and either capture it instantly or fight it out against the crew of that ship depending on details of the situation.)
been subbed for quite a while, just clicked on a link that my history professor sent out as a part of a writing assignment and was pleasantly surprised to find myself back at the best naval history channel on youtube :)
Well then, the American War of Independence is now English Civil War II Oceanic Boogaloo until I stop laughing which I don't see happening anytime soon.
Those trying to second guess or outright malign Jones' actions REALLY need to take something into account. Jones was a Captain in a small and poorly funded rebel navy. Unlike the well-supplied British that he faced, Jones had to make do with whatever he could beg or borrow. The Argument: Jones foolishly set sail with defective guns bought from a scrapyard. The response: What were his choices? Jones could have set sail with 6 pounders that would have been completely ineffective, he could set sail with larger guns of dubious quality, or he could have not set sail at all. Jones was eager to meet the enemy, so he risked setting sail with some shady guns. So, why is it that when Cochrane rushes off into battle with the odds against him he's brilliant and courageous captain, but when Jones does it because he can't afford anything better he's an idiot? As for the rest of the squadron, how is that on Jones? Jones was nominally in command, but lacked the actual power to enforce this supposed authority. There were some privateers that took off after they got their own prizes. There was a French captain who couldn't figure out who to shoot at. Finally, there was a ship so focused on securing its prize that it abandoned the battle it was currently engaged in to do so. With all of this working against him, Jones still managed to take a better armed and better constructed vessel from the Royal Navy. That's even more impressive in my opinion. As for Jones being a bit of a prick, oh well. If true, he wouldn't be the first and certainly not the last officer to be so. I mean, it's not like there are any British officers known for using harsh discipline, right?
Excellent video, as always. A little known fact about John Paul Jones is that the thing that triggered his problem with people skills was hearing someone refer to a ship as "it", rather than the correct "she". He would go berserk.
I have been reading about the American Revolution extensively of late. I found an additional detail in John Ferling's book "Almost a Miracle," that in the lead-up to this action, according to one observer, Jones "carried a cutlass and wore twelve pistols on his waist belt." Twelve. Pistols. So there you go. Scrap iron guns, leaky old ship, and every weapon he could fit on his person, going to fight the Royal Navy. The man was a lunatic.
Hours of being battered by broadsides of shot and canister, with many details of destruction provided - and at the end only 49 dead out of a complement of hundreds. Sixty something on the Serapis, but only due to a singular magazine explosion. I've read of several other long, battering battles of the ships of this era, with as low or lower numbers of dead. Never ceases to amaze me.
In the case of the Serapis the ship was "opened up" - gunports open, hatches open, decks cleared for action so much less clutter and the overpressure of the powder (which is what kills) detonation was dissipated. If she'd have been "shut up for sea" and some bright spark had dropped a grenade into a magazine the blast pressure would have killed every one below decks and probably seriously compromised the hull - the implication is also that the grenade was dropped into a "ready to use charge magazine" so this may not have been the main magazine(s) - if the flame front had propagated into main magazines the biggest part left floating would have been about the size of an inflatable lilo... Think the British ships at Jutland or the Hood. The crew would have been reduced to something anorexic plankton would have considered an acceptable portion size..
@@rosiehawtrey Good point about possibly not even the main magazine. And yes, the overpressure was the killer. Most crew were "lucky" they were on gun deck or above, being shot at; doubt anyone in the hold survived. "anorexic plankton" lol Then the Hood - "new, improved, with iron supplements." By any chance a Patrick O'Brian fan? I recall the HMS Mars (fictional 50 gun version) blew up "like a volcano," taking two enemy ships with her, her only useful contribution.
John Paul Jones was a naval stud who would do his duty no matter the odds, "Give me a fast ship fore I intend to go into harms way"... >_< . This can do attitude would be repeated during the Battle of Samar by Captain Evens and the gallant crew of the USS Johnston ,"This is going to be a fighting ship." "I Intend to go in Harm's Way, and anyone who doesn't want to go along had better get off right now." "Now that I have a fighting ship, I will never retreat from an enemy force." 0_0
Our captain was an ass, but he did not give any stupid orders that got Marines killed. Social niceties are not a priority in a firefight, but those who have never been near a firefight would not know that...
If it wasn't for the unfortunate loss of life on both sides, these types of stories could be likened to two old friends reminiscing about old times and remembering the stupid arguments they used to have. Also it may just be me listening to too much "Horatio Hornblower" (audio books are awesome), but when Jones received French Naval "Assistance" for this, my reaction was "Ummm thanks but no thanks." Though arguable the "Alliance" probably deserved the opposite name, and reminded me more of "those people" who, when playing D&D, would just chuck a fireball into a fight even if their allies were there, and sometimes, because they were there, lol.
Technically the HMS Serapis was not a frigate but a small two decker 5th rate. Also, this was an incredibly hard fought battle on both sides as shown by the damage wrought to the main combatants. It was a fairly rare thing for a wooden warship to actually be sunk in action (or near enough in action) and with both Bon Homme Richard and Serapis either sinking or nearly so from battle damage (as opposed to weather which is what costs the RN most of its prizes after Trafalgar), it was a heck of a fight. Both RN captains earned their pay on that day.
The concept that American seamen taking an aggressive and exposed position in the rigging is "hiding" because they were so schooled in naval tactics they realized the British were not likely to aim cannons there is a bit silly but that is alright. We are aware our early Army and Navy were closer to a loose confederation of otherwise warring states than a disciplined military, and our perception of our War of Independence is we scrambled around for years while winning a few victories here and there but generally struggling until the very end. And we don't imagine we beat the English so much as proved they could not beat us, and it must be remembered that these American colonialists thought of themselves as English. But what this video demonstrates, and it is the best blow-for-blow one I have ever seen because in the USA they just can't wait to get to the quote, it is just THAT famous here, but what it shows is that it took some time for the world including ourselves to not under-estimate the strength and resourcefulness of the American frontiersmen and farmers. I wonder if anyone has ever compared the diet of the American colonialist versus the British? Or even the average height in 1776?
@@SeekerLancer Why wouldn't they? It wasn't exactly a major engagement. It was a small engagement that provided a morale boost. How in depth are they supposed to go with the story. It's not like there aren't more meaningful things that also need to be covered. It's basically just treated as a toss in.
My family had a friend in Bridlington. He had no idea that such an important sea battle happened just off of his coast. Had he lived then, I think he could have watched the battle from his porch.
Well thank you so very much for ruining a perfectly splendidly glorious historical fabrication of one of our Country's most daringly intrepid Naval Heros with paltry facts😁. Seriously, another rousing and informative tale that helped me to better understand our past. As an aside, should not the name of the "Alliance" with the Master she had been more properly the "Dalliance"? Thanks once again, Bruce.
So John Paul Jones, the missing sixth Beetle, was never up for a Mister Popularity Award. You know you have problems when your own side is taking potshots at you.
Drach, the Brits made a particular type of cannon from strips of flat forged metal which was shaped and then banded together to form the barrel which proved much better than other (cast) cannons of the time. I remember (vaguely) seeing this on I believe Discovery or History Channel some time ago, back when they made decent programmes. This type of cannon was so effecrive it stayed in use by the Navy for some considerable time as it could pierce the side planking of other naval ships. Do you have any idea? In the meantime I will try and find it as it must be available on the internet somewhere.
I do believe you have that backwards, cannon of banded construction came before cast cannon and are significantly inferior in almost every way. And banded cannon would not be in use by the time of this battle, or at the time any of the ships involved where built.
I think you are speaking of Carronades (nicknamed "smashers"). Not made in strips though. They were like sawed off shotguns, so a small ship could fire a huge cannonball a short distance - while they couldn't fire a regular cannon due to weight and recoil. In the right circumstances they could be a difference maker. There was quite a fad for them until a ship with only carronades came up against a smaller ship with long guns and lost, being peppered from long range without reply.
Pardon, the Sassenach Jones did not grow up in the British Empire. He grew up in Scotland, part of Great Britain and the United kingdom, not any of the imperial possessions.
WHOO! The Man won! He was victorious. His posterity is secured. Destroy all the statues you want, my knowledge of our HEROIC forebears cannot be erased. They have songs and legends, such lasts much longer than stone.
Thanks for a nicely done video on my boyhood hero JPJ. Query, the origin of the dance bearing his name? In September 2016, I made a pilgrimage to Flamborough Head to see what remained of the battle. It was a beautiful drive from York to the Head, where a strong wind blew off the North Sea making the cloudless day even more bracing . I asked the lady manning - can this be possible in our enlightened, if increasingly ungendered, age? - the nearby cafe if she knew the location of any memorial or monument to the battle or its participants, but she'd never heard of either. Schade!, as the crew of any passing bombarding German cruisers might have said in December 1914! Undeterred, I roamed about the cliffs - it really is a spectacular site! - and found a monument and a marker. I've tried to attach the photos I took of them to this post, but apparently can't do so, though I'd be happy to attach them to an email to Drach if given the means to do so.
It's worth noting as well we were initially going to call CV-10 the Bon Homme Richard but ended up re-naming it the Yorktown, then later naming a different Essex class, CV-31, the Bon Homme RIchard, and currently we have an LHD that bears the name.
Best description I ever saw of John Paul Jones: what happens when you take an insane Scottish naval officer, stick him in American colours, give him a French ship, and then set him loose against the English? You get John Paul Jones. I’m surprised Count Dankula hasn’t done a Mad Lads episode yet on this... well, Mad Lad.
Well, he hasn't played with Led Zep in some time, but fortunately Junior is coming of age before the other boys in the band are too senile to remember how to play the songs.
![BLACK BAG - Official Trailer [HD] - Only in Theaters March 14](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Du0Xp8WX_7I/mqdefault.jpg)
Pinned post for Q&A :)
Edinburgh and Cleveland
Which one is better at being light cruiser
Drachinifel what would have happened if the Argentine Navy had come out in force and were somehow in a position to fight the British Navy? Would they sink the British task force or would they be wiped out? Say this takes place before the Belgrano got sunk.
The Norwegians ordered the Bjørgvin Class costal defense battleships in 1912, however they were “purchased” by the Royal Navy in 1914. What effect would they have had if they were returned to Norway after the war and specifically if they had been sent instead of the Eidsvold class at the first battle of Narvik?
Assuming the problem with the hms glatton was fixed.
Why was the konigsberg so horrendous at sea keeping?
What does the future of naval warfare look like and where is it likely to occur?
"English Civil War II Oceanic Boogaloo" I love it 👍🐴
As do I.
Motion to change the naming convention in our history text books, say aye.
@@bificommander7472 Aye
@@bificommander7472 Aye
As far as New England goes, that makes perfect sense (Puritans vs Anglicans).
When you first said he got cannons from a scrapyard, my immediate thought was "there are reasons they were in a scrapyard..."
There are countless historical occasions in which downtrodden and outgunned revolutionaries resorted to weapons discarded as obsolete or surplus by the "powers" to fight off the yokes of oppression.
Yes but the yanks were not oppressed.
@@KristerAndersson-nc8zo Not true at all. The rich smugglers were being oppressed by the English. Their rebellion set a long precedent of rich criminals being in charge of the country, with the occasional Washington, Lincoln, or Roosevelt doing a rather decent job of running the ship to distract from the various embedded corruption in the upper echelons. Oddly enough, we yanks have a good and well-deserved reputation for being rather hard to corrupt... excepting any elected office. And any office appointed by those elected.
Was there a reason Jones didn't test fire the guns?
@@garzooma powder was difficult to produce in quantity, not only that but at least in the British Navy a budget was set for each Warship before it sailed, from this the Caption had to provision the stores including gunpowder & hire the crew, in short there wasn't a lot of money left over to buy extra powder & shot this meant that most gun crews never got to live fire their guns in "training" before actual battle.
*John Paul Jones sails British ship into port*
Port Authority: "You look like crap."
John Paul Jones: "You should see the other guy."
Then runs him through with a sword 😂
The victory of Bonhomme Richard over Serapis are taught in American schools, but all the details about the personality of Jones or the involvement of the French court to say nothing of the Alliance firing at every vessel in range are never mentioned. History that deserves to be remembered.
To be fair we all know the contributions of the French to our victory. And every ship involved in this battle either did nothing or actively tried to kill John Paul Jones. So all those other ships add nothing.
I actually hadn't heard of Bonhomme Richard until I tried to join the Navy. My naval history up until that point came from my dad telling me the adventures of various submarines.
I learned of John Paul's full history in elementary school.
My school never told me about John Paul Jones
Neither did mine either
The Alliance seems to be a distant relative of the Kamchatka.
My question is was the captain of the Kamchatka related to the captain of the Alliance?
It is 1797. The raiding fleet is off the Eastern coast of Scotland. The Alliance sends the signal "under attack from Japanese torpedo boats" ....
Captain of the Pallas: “What’s a torpedo?”
But had the Alliance gone anywhere near Madagascar?
Icarus what are the Japanese
The Royal Navy really should look into some sort of precautions against enemy fire detonating magazines in the North Sea, seems like it might come in useful in a hundred and fifty years or so....
There's something wrong with our bloody ships today, Chatfield...
bazinga
Good one sir
An often repeated death of ships of all class an many wars.The result of a bomb through the deck shell through the hull the magazine being the end of all.
Rather an unsettling pattern, wouldn't you agree?
"You need to roll 14 or higher to make this grenade throw, and you only get 3 shots"
*6*
*9*
*20*
"The ship fucking EXPLODES, unleashing hell and all it's beasts below decks, and kills just about everyone on board"
Bonhomme Richard: *on fire, gunless, rudderless, sinking*
Jones: "hey limey...I didn't hear no bell"
Gonna Fly Now by Bill Continues starts playing
It's so crazy how war was back then, you could have a bit of banter between two captains while the men are getting evaporated
When salvos were timed in minutes and distance was measured in 10's of yards and at most a couple hundred other than very long ranging ranging fire where you only hoped to hurt their rigging a little bit .... =-)
Yes,and the captains get the so called "glory" for sacrificing their crews...
@@david9783 Moron, war is not pretty
@@david9783 what's changed?
@@TheLiverTea not much.
I feel like this is a case of “If we don’t know what we’re doing the enemy sure won’t either!”
A beloved and unofficial axium of the US military
"If everyone does their own thing, they can never predict us!" There is a shocking amount of truth to this in how our military works.
Yes, studying our official battle doctrine doesn't help if we ignore it ourselves!
Jeffrey Root Battle doctrine is not a step-by-step manual, it’s a basic guideline of what to do and when. If you follow doctrine religiously you won’t be able to seize an opportunity when it presents itself.
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 And a longstanding tradition - some of the worst defeats, but many of the greatest victories in US history...
"Alliance." If ever a ship were wrongly named.
Kurtis Boyer I think HMS Invincible takes the cake for having a wrong name
@@deeznoots6241 You certainly have a point. I can't disagree.
@@deeznoots6241 At least Invincible wasn't a Team-Killing Fucktard XD
"Oxymoron" would have been better.
Be named Alliance... be an enemy to everyone.
What an interested character he has, but the battle is even more weird. The guy who threw the grenades deserve the credit for winning the battle though.
talk about scoring a clutch critical hit while loosing the bout!
Look up Edward Stack, US Marines during the battle, DD-406 named after him.
He "likely" had a role in the grenades.
Also rumoured to be the inspiration for the end of a fairly famous space opera....
No step on snek
🐍No step on snek🐍
Indeed.
dont
John Paul Jones was probably the most unlikely person to end up as one America's greatest naval heros. Even more strange, he only managed to reach the rank of Admiral by joining the Russian Navy. The book "John Paul Jones: America's First Sea Warrior" (Joseph Callo) is a great book about his life, not only his well known naval achievements, but also his personal life, which was almost exciting as his naval battles. I believe it's now available as an ebook and in print for about the same price. There are several other books about Jones with deceptively similar titles, but none are as comprehensive as Callo's tome.
Sar Jim thanks for the book recommendation!
@@jagerbombasstic You're welcome. I read it just after it came out in the early 90's, and it was a real page turner for me. I've read several other biographies about Jones with those similar titles and, while they weren't bad, they weren't as historically complete as Callo's book.
@@stanleyrogouski I don't know about the last time, but Jones was in command of a force in the Russo-Turkish war when kept the Turkish navy near Ochakov on the run and provided shore bombardment for the invasion of Kinbern and laid siege to Ochakov. He was under Admiral Potemkin's command, and Potemkin and other Russian admirals feared Jones was going to rise in command, given his known abilities and the rumor that he and Catherine II had more than a professional relationship, if you catch my drift. Potemkin was constantly sending back action reports with filled with lies about Jones's supposed cowardice in the face of the Turks. He was finally recalled to Moscow under the pretext of being transferred to the Baltic Fleet when, in reality, he was put in a staff position Potemkin knew he would hate. Even though Jones was awarded the Order of St. Anne in June, 1788, he knew he was being forced out, and returned to Paris just before Christmas of the same year. He learned his lesson about serving in a foreign fleet from this, turning down the offer of command of the French revolutionary fleet in 1790.
@@stanleyrogouski He was actually 45 in 1792, the year of his death. You might be thinking of his age when he was in Russian service. Jones had pretty much burned all his bridges in the US Navy and knew he had no chance for promotion there. His Russian service was strictly a business proposition, much as his service in the US Navy had been. Jones wanted tow things - to be in a fight and be in command of a fleet. I've read of Kościuszko's advice to Jones about foreign service. It's not clear why he turned down the French offer, but I suspect he didn't want to choose what might be the losing side in another civil war. I think Spain was also interested in Jones, but he had developed the reputation, using an American football metaphor, of being a top quarterback, but not being much of a team player and hard to work with. His chance of a top command in a stable navy was just about zero, even with his acknowledged talent. Sad end to what could have been a very successful career as admiral of the fleet somewhere.
@@stanleyrogouski Jones was certainly no believer in democracy, and he did run his ships like an absolute monarchy. Nelson was 47 at the time of Trafalgar, and Jones would have been 58. Both Jones and Nelson would have been considered elderly at a time when the average life expectancy was 34. The last thing Jones wanted to do was die peacefully in bed, so I imagine he would have envied Nelson's death if he had still been around.
If this story were presented as a script in Hollywood it would be laughed out of the room as being so wildly insane as to defy any credulity.
As with every good true story,
@@zekbaker4727 What are the Colonies called now?
@@zekbaker4727 Depriving the enemy of two warships at the cost of a merchantman upgunned with scap metal is a victory.
"Should I have the good fortune... I'll make him a lord." That killed me Drach! XD
True quote though.
I got a pretty good chuckle out of that, too.
He usually ends with a good quip in summation.
Whatever he was lacking in "people skills", he surely wasn't lacking in witty one-liners.
@@michaelt.5672 as someone who personally lacks "people skills"... It's about not being able to say the right thing at the right time. It's not easy to be a silver tongued-devil. I personally can't do it.
'English Civil War 2, Electric Boogaloo' is the best ever name for the American War of Independence.
I usually call it "The American Mutiny", but perhaps I'm just being grumpy?
I love mortifying my american friends by referring to it as 'that minor colonial insurrection'.
I refer to them as 'you damned traitors' which they find slightly bewildering lol
There's actually two countries between Canada and Mexico - Retardistan in the north and Inbredistan in the south - technically the unofficial border runs along the Mindless-Dickwit line.
"Whut we got here, is uh failure to realise she's your sister..."
Seriously they actually asked Inbredistanis what they thought about the species Homo Sapiens going extinct and the general consensus was pretty much "they had a good run..."
And these people have M134 miniguns... What could *possibly* go wrong?
@@rosiehawtrey If you're a conservative you know that we've become soft as a species and frankly deserve to be wiped out, if you're a liberal it's about the best thing you could possibly do for the environment. So doesn't really matter where you stand on the political spectrum, one thing we should all be able to agree on is that the extinction of the human species would be a good thing.
Task failed successfully.
The best
Sums up most of the US victories honestly
They didn’t teach those parts of John Paul Jones pre-Revolutionary history in American schools, or at least the one I attended.
Thanks as always, Drach!
I took American history in the late 50's up to my graduation in 1964. It may be the period I took history compared to later times, but we were taught all about commanders like John Paul Jones, David Porter, and Oliver Hazard Perry. Given the size of the Continental Navy, and the rather pitiful force we put together in 1812, we didn't have a lot of early American naval heroes, so our history lessons spent some time on them. I credit Mr. Harrison's seventh grade history class, with his riveting tales of John Paul Jones, as being responsible for the start of my lifelong interest in naval history.
We were essentially taught the highlights. He “beat” the Brits in their own waters and gave a cool action hero line.
This was late 90s early aughts and the early days of standardized testing results being directly tied to school funding. So we were being taught to pass a test at the end of the year so the school wouldn’t be defunded.
I didn’t get that sort of in depth class experience until college.
@@whatsoperadoc7050 I was long before the days of standardized testing. It seems like the goal now is for students to know a little about more things but not learn any one thing in depth. Back then, teachers made up their own tests, and teachers like Mr. Harrison's tests went into a lot more detail about naval history because he really liked naval history. He probably taught less about the other military phases of the Revolutionary War and War of 1812, but I like the idea that teachers were allowed to teach about what they liked best. It made the classes a lot more interesting when the teacher was invested in the subject rather than helping the students pass a standardized test.
I've come to understand my fortune- I attended public schools as well, but I had some of the best teachers ever. I learned most of this, somehow. The detail and presentation make it seem new, though. Thanks, Drach.
@@williammurdoch468 My first ten years were in Catholic schools, back when they had the deserved reputation offering a superior education, at least to those planning to go to college. Public schools back then still offered a good education, just not expecting students to perform at the same levels demanded by the nuns. I was lucky to have Mr. Harrison, a "lay" teacher and a navy vet, as my history teacher for two years. If he was around today, God rest his soul, I suspect he'd be doing the same sorts of videos as Drach. They would have been a heck of a collab.
*Gunshots*
*screams*
*explosions*
“I sleep”
*Drachinifel releases age of sail video*
“I WOKE!”
"When Assholes Attack" The story of John Paul Jone's most famous battle.
“nice ship, I’ll take it”? More like “floating ship, hopefully I’ll live”
hope you can swim
HMS Serapis wasn't broken up, she was given over to the french who managed to "restore" her and then in 1781 while sailing near Madagascar she wrecked after a sailor dropped a lantern into a tub of brandy which proceeded to light the spirits locker on fire and as the crew were attempting to get the situation under control the fire burned through the locker and into the powder magazine which promptly exploded and ripped off the stern of the ship. Thankfully only 8 of the 223 men aboard her died, with the rest of the crew being picked up by a french flagged privateer which dropped them off at the french colony on Madgascar.
Still ended up in Madagascar in a better condition than the 2nd Pacific Squadron.
Is it wrong that my phone aurocorrect now automatically picks up 2nd Pacific Squadron... 😁😁
Holy shiznitte.
I wonder how rare it is for the same ship to be ammo-racked twice.
@@wesleygay8918 SMS Seydlitz would like to have a word :D
@@NashmanNash Well, Seydlitz got the honor? of contributing one of her guns to Kormoran... which was still installed when Kormoran fought Sydney. So... part of Seydlitz was on board Kormoran when Kormoran's mine hold explosion blew the back half off the ship.
The Alliance: Trying to be a teamkiller. And failing at it.
I hear that the guy who dropped the grenades used to bullseye womp rats in his T-16 back home, and they're not much bigger than two meters.
Yes, this is supposed to be the inspiration for a rather famous scene featuring that chap.
John Paul Jones is one of the most interesting American sea captains of the 18th century! He had a very high opinion of himself and considered anyone who disagreed with him to be his enemy, which is why he was never seriously considered for promotion. But he was brave, an excellent seaman, and knew how to "pull the lions tail" as the American privateers used to say. If you read his biography, you'll understand why he got nowhere when he was given the job of "modernizing" the Russian Navy. Because he thought the aristocracy were stupid, he never tried to understand them. Unlike Franklyn who knew how to charm the nobility with flattery and get things done.
Ben Franklin managed to once, with a straight face, say " "If all monarchs ruled with your benevolence, republics would never be formed."
He said this to _King Louis XVI of France,_ who was at that point his ally fighting the British and who was about six years removed from being the direct target of the French Revolution and beheaded for being an out of touch ultramonarch.
Ben Franklin was the _King of Bullshit._
@@InchonDM Indeed! As he told Adams; flattery will get him further in France's court then bluntness. Lets face it, if it hadn't been for old Ben France never would have helped us gain our independence!
For some reason, I am thinking that JPJ was a not terribly distant cousin of that famous Highland firebrand MacAdder and his even more infamous cousin Blackadder...
I'm thinking more a cross between Flasheart and General Melchett.
The 'Adders didn't have that soupcon of sociopathy.
That explains where he got his blatant disregard for his officers. I could see John Paul Jones killing a British officer's favorite messanger pigeon and serving it in the officer's mess.
Why am I thinking that the Captain of the Alliance would later be reincarnated as a Russian who would go on to captain the repair ship Kamchatka?
This battle reminded me of a standard World of Warships game, but from from the late 1700's. What is teamwork?
Now I want a 1700 game mode for world of warships lol. Would fit with the game better than modern naval fights anyway
@@themadhammer3305 You know damn well how that would end. Every game would run out of time as they entered the doldrums and lost all momentum.
@@themadhammer3305 Man I'd play the hell of that game. If only to watch the butthurt that begins to flow as a 1st rate is taken down by a couple of sloops because the guy in control "plays for fun" aka is complete ass at boats.
This is my favorite comment.
@@themadhammer3305 What you want is the game 'Naval Action'
Me: You are the worst US naval commander I've ever heard of....
JPJ: But, you have heard of me.
So, what does that say about the Royal Navy? I mean, if Jones was so bad, how did he keep defeating superior British vessels?
I feel so bad for the captain of the Serapis, ngl
@@stanklepoot Professionals know "HOW THINGS ARE DONE" usually for good reason, can sometimes be outmatched by fools with no concern for "Proper" methods.
@@stanklepoot foppery and whim can be the best foil to elegance and discipline.
@@Vaderi300 Another way to look at things is "adapt and overcome." Cochrane wasn't exactly a by the book kind of guy. I'm sure some of his attacks would have been considered lunacy by more than a few of his peers. "Proper" methods are typically a good place to start, but they can end up being chains that bind the more innovative mind, or a crutch for those hesitant to put their reputations on the line. If you lose, but do everything by the book, your reputation tends to remain intact.
Pearson: "Have you struck your colors sir?"
JPJ: "I have not yet BEGUN to fight!!"
(*a few hours later*)
JPJ: "Have YOU struck your colors sir?"
Pearson: Well I don't know. Our main mast is gone, our mizzen mast is gone, and upon the whole, you could say we HAVE struck our flag!"
That second quote is from 1812
@@nukclear2741 Yup. Quote from the captain of the Guerriere.
@@MrWaalkman Good 'Old Ironsides' Most American ship ever built, not in name, but the ability to become an invincible juggernaut.
@@rebelgaming1.5.14 I'm not sure what the USS Constitution has to do with John Paul Jones. The latter having died 5 years before the former was launched. But no matter...
I don't know about invincible, but I do know that she was damn lucky when she was being chased by five British warships. The wind dropped down for two and a half days, and her crew "towed" her from boats using kedge anchors, and also by wetting the sails to catch whatever little wind there was available. This went on for 57 hours before the British gave up the chase.
When it comes to a strategic retreat, some say that "Discretion is the better part of valor". I say that it is the better part of good sense.
But she was (and is) a tough old girl, and had come out of a few knife fights in pretty good shape. And she actually came out of retirement to fight in the war of 1812. Having been discounted as "too slow" (she just needed a good cleaning) for active service. She had made her debut in the Quasi-war in 1799, and then fought again in the Tripolitan war.
But as before, she benefited from luck in both of these engagements when her rigging became entangled with the Guerriere, and then same thing happened with the Java, which effectively held both of them at bowpoint to her (making the bow guns the only guns that the British ships could bear down on the Constitution), while the Constitution was able to fire her broadsides "To great effect" as they say. It could have easily gone the other way around.
But was this luck? Not hardly, you don't outrun five of your equals just on luck. And the Constitution showed superior seamanship in holding the Guerriere and the Java at bay while pounding the hell out of them. And don't think for a moment that the British didn't try everything that they could think of to get free.
In all three of these engagements she had the better trained crew, and was better prepared (with the exception of the Shannon's gun crew. Which gunnery-wise, was simply the best ship on the planet at the time).
So while "Fortune favors the bold", it also smiles upon the well-prepared.
One of the great books (from the American point of view) on the fledgling American Navy is "The Naval War of 1812", by Theodore Roosevelt, and is available for free at Project Gutenberg: www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9104
Roosevelt's argument is that the American crews were better trained. This has some truth to it, since during the slow motion chase (kinda like the OJ chase, only slower), the Constitution was being fired upon by the Brits but they couldn't hit her.
So if your target is effectively being towed across the ocean, and you still can't hit it, you've got a serious gunnery problem. Our navy also favored longer ranged guns (go figure), that threw a greater weight (good thinking there, too), and declined the invitation to get in close enough to their targets to make things "sporting" (just practical thinking if you ask me).
So while not reading the British point of view, I understand it that their take is that we were crafty devils that didn't fight fair. And if you take Teddy's point of view, we were just good clean American kids who could shoot straight. I suspect that it's somewhere in between.
In any case, "The Naval War of 1812" is a great book. and is extremely readable and enjoyable. At one time a copy of it was included with every new ship built. Kind of like floor mats at the car dealership.
And for those that might say that "at best" we ended up in a tie. I don't agree. We went into the war with the demand that the British stop impressing our sailors and stealing our ships (Roosevelt makes a great argument that the victory at Trafalgar was as much an American victory as it was a British one because of all of the Americans that fought in the battle).
During the negotiations for the treaty of Ghent, we wanted concessions from the British, and saner heads prevailed. The Brits wanted concessions (land) as well. To this, Wellington famously said, and I paraphrase, "you really ought to take some territory first before demanding it".
But after the war of 1812, impressment of our sailors, as well as the impounding of our ships, stopped entirely. Much of this was because the Brits (as well as our unlucky Yanks) finally defeated Napoleon and they didn't need the large navy as before. But a large part of it was they got their nose seriously bloodied by an upstart navy.
As to the foundation of our navy we were more than a little lucky. We had the French and the Tripolians convincing John Adams that we had to have a navy at just the right time. We had an outstanding captain in Stephen Decatur (the loss of the USS President notwithstanding), as well as his BFF Thomas Macdonough.
Decatur's contribution was in building great warships, as well as fighting them. Should have stayed out of dueling however...
Macdonough's contribution was creating his own navy from scratch in the backwoods of New York. Beating the British while being outnumbered and out-gunned in a brilliant recreation of a French tactic that didn't work out so well for the French. All the while stopping a major British invasion in the process. Which helped in a large part making any British demands for land in the treaty of Ghent rather moot.
@@MrWaalkman I might try to find it and pick a book up. Naval History, at least just below the surface level of it, has been my thing. Schools teach shit about the War of 1812, except for the fact that USS Constitution took down Guerriere, and that cannonballs bounced off the timber she was made of. Thank you for the enlightenment that American schools ignore.
I did kinda figure out that the American Navy popped into Existence pretty much overnight when the Revolutionary War started, using privately owned scoolners (the class of ship's name is confusing to spell) and a larger number of Sloops and Cutters. I never knew who actually pioneered the US's Standing Dedicated Navy. Thank you for that as well.
Not only that, a pair USN ships would be named for him (a Forrest Sherman Class Destroyer and an Arleigh Burke Class Guided Missile Destroyer), and two other ships would be named Bonhomme Richard. The Essex Class Fleet Carrier, and the Wasp Class Amphibious Assault Ship. Funnily enough, the Bonhomme Richard and the John Paul Jones (the more recent ones obviously) would take part in symbolic escort duty as part of a search for the wreck of the original Bonhomme Richard. The wreck however, has still never been discovered.
Love from scarborough N Yorkshire
John Paul Jones...
Poster child for the phrase: "It's better to be lucky than good."
You're kidding, right? You call THAT lucky?
@@stanklepoot what about the whole event strikes you as not lucky? sure, a crap ton of it was bad luck, but there certainly wasn't much skill involved on the American side of things.
@@Vaderi300 OK, first of all, you're just being disingenuous. When someone uses the term lucky, they're referring to good luck, and you know it. Secondly, you might want to be careful of falling into the trap of insulting the opponent...especially if the opponent ended up winning. I mean, Jones started out with an "ally" that was more likely to shoot at a friend than a foe, and some cannon that self-detonated, and the British still lost. Seriously, just how pathetic is the Royal Navy? They didn't just lose, but were captured, under those circumstances? See how easy that was?
He fought in the rain, and he fought in the sun, and he fought in the moonlight too!
He fought with his knife, and he fought with his gun,
And he fought till his blood ran through!
Johnny Horton made naval warfare cool.
If I were member of his crew, I might have well shot him myself!
@@WALTERBROADDUS And also extremely historically inaccurate in just about evreyway possible. I blame the U.S school system.
@@edwardteach3000 Hey you try making a historicaly good country song that charts? It's like making Scientific Gospel... 🤔
Good episode.
The scoundrel JPJ is the well deserved Father of every US Navy scoundrel since him.
Nice men marry,
Scoundrels live fast and hard,
And keep pretty maids awake at night....
Easy choice,
Third generation U.S. MARINE.
Thus beginning the longstanding American tradition of friendly fire.
A very ugly truth.
The U.S.NAVY does seem to attract the very best, and the most despicable that the same time.
How my Father dispied the U.S.Navy in WWII, for petty and low things done.
He was 1st MARINE DIVISION from Cape Gloucester to Peleliu.
To be fair it's kinda hard not to hit your own men when you are all intermingled with the enemy in one gigantic Death mosh pit.
Seriously the whole "Fire on my position!!" Trope exists for a reason.
AE - it isn't *that* difficult. I live in a UK army town and the general consensus of the squaddies is that their Inbredistani counterparts couldn't hit a barn door from inside the barn.
They had to paint recognition symbols on the Abrams tanks despite the fact that an Abrams looks completely different from a Russian tank, the Americans invariably managed to shoot at their own side, usually with DU FSDS rounds.
They're also highly notable at being able to hit bright white UN vehicles with unerring accuracy while completely missing the enemy forces currently pasting said UN vehicles and proceeding to comprehensively slaughter maim and injure the only embedded veteran journalists within 200 clicks.
The spirit of the Kamchatka is alive and well and flying an F16, probably thought Landrover had brought out its new Torpedo Boat 110.
Still,at least when they're about we don't have to use the SA80.
@@rosiehawtrey the reason the US usually shoots at in tanks is because they keep confusing them with bunches of imperial storm troopers, some one has to be vigilant when it comes to the Galactic empire.
😂😂😂😂😂
Fantastic video as always Drach. I absolutely loved this. And I thank you for the even handed assessment of John Paul Jones and his failings. To often in America we gloss over his quirks. But I still consider him the father of the American Navy, or at least one its fathers.
the angry... drunken father...
And we made this guy a hero. This is why I love this country: you could be a complete screw-up and yet we'll immortalize you for a well timed one-liner.
@Mike Markwell Thing is the way they taught us about him in school was basically that his ship was heavily damaged, the British captain told him to surrender, he said he hadn't begun to fight and then turned the whole fight around. They left out all the embarrassing stuff so he came off as a witty underdog.
@Mike Markwell You learn something every day.
How are you a complete screw up when you win? He may have been a real SOB, but the rest was pretty much a factor of him serving in a rebel navy with next to no resources. He sailed with defective cannons because they were the only ones he could afford that were theoretically suitable to the task. He set sail with privateers and a French captain with a questionable mental state because that was what was available to him.
@@stanklepoot Even keeping the captain of the Alliance so angry that he stayed with the fleet to kill Jones rather than sail off shows he learned from his earlier desertions. Without the Alliance firing in all directions likely the Brits don't strike.
My brother goes to the Naval Academy, so I got to see John Paul Jones’ crypt when I went up to visit him. My brother also got to do a summer cruise aboard the USS Bonhomme Richard.
looking at how elaborate that is... i'm not sure why it isn't called a sarcophagus...
@@marhawkman303 yeah it’s definitely something. Incredibly ornate
I do prefer “English Civil War Two: Oceanic Boogaloo”
Every American student is taught at a young age about this battle. However you gave us the real nitty gritty facts.
Well you have to get the valuable freeing information in their brains early or they might start thinking problematic things, right? If people don't get told what to think as children, they might start reading history as it is and start thinking the wrong things and we wouldn't want that now. That might unravel the story
I feel like I'd remember being taught this if that were the case.
@@mysss29 Indeed. Today is the first time I heard of this battle, these ships, and this guy.
@@tommeakin1732 As Livy said, the purpose of history is to inspire the nation and provide examples for the current generation; without a useful narrative, history is just a set of dry and irrelevant observations. Why would anybody teach something contrary to the national interest?
Costa Keith Because they’d be lying by omission to indulge in nationalism.
This entire action is the US military in a nutshell.
Complete chaos and accident combined with audacity and insanity...to somehow win.
Napoleon never had a plan he just when in and reacted to the situtation :)
I wore out crippled merchantmen using scrap weapons kicks the snot out of a first-class British ship of the line and you say that the Americans are incompetent what the hell does that make the British then?
Bill Smith It was mostly the British kicking the crap out of the bonhomme richard until some of those good ol fashioned Americans with their guns rained hot lead on their deck and killed most of the rigging crew until they got close enough to drop a grenade into the powder magazine. Not to discount the story, honestly one of the better pre ironclad engagements I’ve heard about, but for the solid majority of the fight the Americans were on the back foot, especially against the Serapis
Damn skippy!
The video mentions that Benjamin Franklin was something of a sponsor of JP Jones, who named his "new" ship in Franklin's honor. _Bonhomme Richard_ is "Good man Richard", in reference to the pseudonym "Poor Richard" (or "Richard Saunders") that Franklin used writing for his _Poor Richard's Almanack_ .
Great video!
Jones success helped convince the French to support the US, which ultimately led to the defeat of Cornwallis at Yorktown, and victory.
When Pierre Landais (a former officer in the French Navy) later sailed the Alliance back to the US, his officers decided he was insane and forcibly removed him from command. After an investigation he was dismissed from the service.
The comment that JPJ couldn’t make admiral in the U S Navy was correct, but in fact there was no such rank. While there were plenty of generals, the rank of admiral was considered to be too aristocratic. Over the years this caused problems, such as settling disputes between senior captains, dealing with foreign navies, and Army generals. Various secretaries of the Navy pushed to create the rank, but Congress was adamant. The rank of rear admiral wasn’t created until 1862.
Well, that and a little scrap in up state New York. Thank you gentile man Johnny.
The Alliance was quickly painted pink.
While John Paul Jones had a rather bellicose personality, and wasn't the kind of person you would want to get into an argument with; unless you were heavily armed, the Captain of the Alliance was positively crazy. When John Adams was acting as the American commissioner in France, he met Captain Pierre Landais on several occasions and described him this way in his diary: Captain Landais “is jealous of every Thing. Jealous of every Body . . . he knows not how to treat his officers, nor his passengers, nor any Body else. . . . There is in this man an Inactivity and an Indecisiveness that will ruin him. He is bewildered . . . an embarrassed Mind.” Later when visiting the Alliance before it set sail Adams wrote, “Landais will never accomplish any great thing. . . . This man . . . has a littleness in his mien and air. His face is small and sharp so that you form a mean opinion of him from the first sign.” Adams also noted that Captain Landais complained of imaginary plots against him.
After the battle, Captain Landais admitted to a French Colonel that he wanted to help HMS Serapis sink the Bonhomme Richard so he could then take the Serapis himself.
Here's a link to article on Captain Landais and his troubled career.
allthingsliberty.com/2018/07/the-revolutionary-wars-most-enigmatic-naval-captain-pierre-landais/
Just read the article you kindly supplied; Captain Landais seems to have been a utter madman.
I am quite puzzled that he never "accidentally" fell over board.
Truly enjoy your channel. Being a citizen of the U.S., I found this video to be amazingly entertaining. Well done!
I was watching this and when he talked about the snek flag I felt very 'merican to have one right behind the tv I was watching this on.
JagerBombasstic please tell me it’s the Gadsden flag and not our atrocious new naval jack.
Our old 19th/20th century naval jack was so classy.
As of 2019 we've gone back to the stars-on-blue-feild jack. The Snake-on-Stripes is *probably* inaccurate anyhow as a representation of the first naval jack, being mainly based on an British Illustration of the 19th century. The first naval jack was most probably simply the stripes of the stars and stripes. I think that looks better, anyhow. The Snake-on-Stripes is still flown by the USS. Constitution and the Whitby Island, being the oldest service ships in the fleet, which were to fly the first naval jack under the 1980 regulations, before the "temporary" war on terror order made it the jack for all ships. Still shouldn't have that snake on it, though! I used to like the Gasden Flag, but then it came to have rather modern political connotations I don't care for. I actually think that the proper 1st Naval Jack (13 Red & White stripes) is actually a superior jack design since the stripes aren't added to every time we get a new state (well since like 1812 anyways, 15 stars & stripes was when we all collectively decided "yeah, no") so the jack could be used longer.
@@menschman1464 Good news for you. We went back to the 50-star Jack back in June.
Christopher Blair I didn’t know that we had switched back neat
Why did you even feel the need to say anything...?
The Alliance was rather poorly named. Was there any fallout for its captain afterwards?
According to another comment I saw, yes on the way back home his officers came to the conclusion that he was insane and removed him from command. Later a comity would deem him unfit for command and he was discharged.
@@edwardteach3000 Wasn't he an already a disgraced ex-officer to begin with? Bringing him along in the first place was as bad of an idea as getting the cannons from a scrap yard.
@@CThyran What were Jones' alternatives? I mean, he could have set sail with 6 pounders that clearly weren't up to the task. Jones basically had two options: set sail with the equipment and personnel that he had, or not set sail at all. Given the results, I'm sure the British would have preferred the latter. Since Jones actually wanted to sail into harm's way, he chose the former.
@@stanklepoot Cottineau called him a coward afterwards (but lost the resulting duel). He then bullshitted his way back into command of the Alliance, somehow managed to make even more of a mess of being a Captain than Jones had (to the point of arresting his marine corps Captain and nearly murdering the man who'd helped him get command back over taking the first slice of pork), and was finally relieved of command by force in the middle of the Atlantic. When the ship arrived in America and was met by its new Captain (Barry), he locked himself in the Captain's quarters and had to be forcibly removed. He was put on trial and removed from the continental navy afterwards (as was the Lieutenant who'd commanded for the second half of the journey across the Atlantic - not sure why, since he seems to have done a reasonably good job during the brief period he was in command).
The finding and the removal of John Paul Jone's body is also a fascinating story
Great telling of the story. There are some great US Navy stories from the war against the Barbary Pirates and the two lake campaigns vs Britain. Those last two are good stories and the only time the US and Britain could fight on nearly equal terms.
Going to send this to my brother (a USN Petty officer) and a few junior officers and sailors I helped through the sign up process. The warts and all on John Paul Jones is *very* different from what's in the Blue Jacket's Manual to my knowledge.
Well, now I know where Starfleet Battles rule (G22.223) came from. (This rule states that there is a 1% chance that a "Legendary Captain" will, on the event of his ship being destroyed, simply turn up on an enemy ship and either capture it instantly or fight it out against the crew of that ship depending on details of the situation.)
been subbed for quite a while, just clicked on a link that my history professor sent out as a part of a writing assignment and was pleasantly surprised to find myself back at the best naval history channel on youtube :)
English Civil War 2- Oceanic Boogaloo. Brilliant
Well then, the American War of Independence is now English Civil War II Oceanic Boogaloo until I stop laughing which I don't see happening anytime soon.
Those trying to second guess or outright malign Jones' actions REALLY need to take something into account. Jones was a Captain in a small and poorly funded rebel navy. Unlike the well-supplied British that he faced, Jones had to make do with whatever he could beg or borrow. The Argument: Jones foolishly set sail with defective guns bought from a scrapyard. The response: What were his choices? Jones could have set sail with 6 pounders that would have been completely ineffective, he could set sail with larger guns of dubious quality, or he could have not set sail at all. Jones was eager to meet the enemy, so he risked setting sail with some shady guns. So, why is it that when Cochrane rushes off into battle with the odds against him he's brilliant and courageous captain, but when Jones does it because he can't afford anything better he's an idiot? As for the rest of the squadron, how is that on Jones? Jones was nominally in command, but lacked the actual power to enforce this supposed authority. There were some privateers that took off after they got their own prizes. There was a French captain who couldn't figure out who to shoot at. Finally, there was a ship so focused on securing its prize that it abandoned the battle it was currently engaged in to do so. With all of this working against him, Jones still managed to take a better armed and better constructed vessel from the Royal Navy. That's even more impressive in my opinion. As for Jones being a bit of a prick, oh well. If true, he wouldn't be the first and certainly not the last officer to be so. I mean, it's not like there are any British officers known for using harsh discipline, right?
Excellent video, as always. A little known fact about John Paul Jones is that the thing that triggered his problem with people skills was hearing someone refer to a ship as "it", rather than the correct "she". He would go berserk.
Personally don't blame him, a ship is a she unless talking about curtain countrys who do use he for there ships.
36:05
Drach:"Rather interesting"
Translation:"Oh god! My eyes!"
Truly the French Pre-Dreadnaught of sarcophagi.
I used to live in Dumfries Scotland near a small coastal village called Southerness. John Paul Jones was apparently born there.
Captain Pierson: “have you struck?”
John Paul Jones: *reaches into coat for uno reverse card*
I have been reading about the American Revolution extensively of late. I found an additional detail in John Ferling's book "Almost a Miracle," that in the lead-up to this action, according to one observer, Jones "carried a cutlass and wore twelve pistols on his waist belt."
Twelve. Pistols.
So there you go. Scrap iron guns, leaky old ship, and every weapon he could fit on his person, going to fight the Royal Navy.
The man was a lunatic.
Hours of being battered by broadsides of shot and canister, with many details of destruction provided - and at the end only 49 dead out of a complement of hundreds. Sixty something on the Serapis, but only due to a singular magazine explosion. I've read of several other long, battering battles of the ships of this era, with as low or lower numbers of dead. Never ceases to amaze me.
In the case of the Serapis the ship was "opened up" - gunports open, hatches open, decks cleared for action so much less clutter and the overpressure of the powder (which is what kills) detonation was dissipated.
If she'd have been "shut up for sea" and some bright spark had dropped a grenade into a magazine the blast pressure would have killed every one below decks and probably seriously compromised the hull - the implication is also that the grenade was dropped into a "ready to use charge magazine" so this may not have been the main magazine(s) - if the flame front had propagated into main magazines the biggest part left floating would have been about the size of an inflatable lilo... Think the British ships at Jutland or the Hood. The crew would have been reduced to something anorexic plankton would have considered an acceptable portion size..
@@rosiehawtrey Good point about possibly not even the main magazine. And yes, the overpressure was the killer. Most crew were "lucky" they were on gun deck or above, being shot at; doubt anyone in the hold survived.
"anorexic plankton" lol Then the Hood - "new, improved, with iron supplements."
By any chance a Patrick O'Brian fan? I recall the HMS Mars (fictional 50 gun version) blew up "like a volcano," taking two enemy ships with her, her only useful contribution.
That moment you remember that John Paul Jones was the name of the destroyer in the movie : Battleship
John Paul Jones was a naval stud who would do his duty no matter the odds, "Give me a fast ship fore I intend to go into harms way"... >_< . This can do attitude would be repeated during the Battle of Samar by Captain Evens and the gallant crew of the USS Johnston ,"This is going to be a fighting ship." "I Intend to go in Harm's Way, and anyone who doesn't want to go along had better get off right now." "Now that I have a fighting ship, I will never retreat from an enemy force." 0_0
Our captain was an ass, but he did not give any stupid orders that got Marines killed. Social niceties are not a priority in a firefight, but those who have never been near a firefight would not know that...
The best "Five Minutes" that I have spent this week. ;-) Great video---keep up the good work.
If it wasn't for the unfortunate loss of life on both sides, these types of stories could be likened to two old friends reminiscing about old times and remembering the stupid arguments they used to have. Also it may just be me listening to too much "Horatio Hornblower" (audio books are awesome), but when Jones received French Naval "Assistance" for this, my reaction was "Ummm thanks but no thanks." Though arguable the "Alliance" probably deserved the opposite name, and reminded me more of "those people" who, when playing D&D, would just chuck a fireball into a fight even if their allies were there, and sometimes, because they were there, lol.
One of the most Bizarre battles I’ve heard you speak of! I cannot imagine the amount of research that goes into putting a video like this together!
30:20 A few photon torpedoes into a thermal exhaust port usually does the trick.
No fecking idea about sailing, collonial history or much about what Ive hust listened to but I really enjoyed the banter. Subbed!!
Technically the HMS Serapis was not a frigate but a small two decker 5th rate. Also, this was an incredibly hard fought battle on both sides as shown by the damage wrought to the main combatants. It was a fairly rare thing for a wooden warship to actually be sunk in action (or near enough in action) and with both Bon Homme Richard and Serapis either sinking or nearly so from battle damage (as opposed to weather which is what costs the RN most of its prizes after Trafalgar), it was a heck of a fight. Both RN captains earned their pay on that day.
This is why people should pay attention to history. In its reality, it's so much more informative.
The concept that American seamen taking an aggressive and exposed position in the rigging is "hiding" because they were so schooled in naval tactics they realized the British were not likely to aim cannons there is a bit silly but that is alright. We are aware our early Army and Navy were closer to a loose confederation of otherwise warring states than a disciplined military, and our perception of our War of Independence is we scrambled around for years while winning a few victories here and there but generally struggling until the very end. And we don't imagine we beat the English so much as proved they could not beat us, and it must be remembered that these American colonialists thought of themselves as English. But what this video demonstrates, and it is the best blow-for-blow one I have ever seen because in the USA they just can't wait to get to the quote, it is just THAT famous here, but what it shows is that it took some time for the world including ourselves to not under-estimate the strength and resourcefulness of the American frontiersmen and farmers. I wonder if anyone has ever compared the diet of the American colonialist versus the British? Or even the average height in 1776?
Yeah, the biggest advantage the US had was RANGE, the Brits had to build and supply ships.. THEN sail across. The US just built stuff.
"English Civil War II Oceanic Boogaloo" :D :D
That's it, I'm going patreon!
Obviously you are prejudiced against Americans. What a hit job. The things that you cite were things British naval men did routinely.
That was SO not the story we got from history classes in the U.S.!
Thank you, Uncle Drach.
The brits do have a way of storytelling about interesting events during wars. Like some of the war stories as told by uncle Jingles for instance.
I know right? In grade school they ignored every part that wasn't, "And then they threw a grenade and won the battle."
@@SeekerLancer Why wouldn't they? It wasn't exactly a major engagement. It was a small engagement that provided a morale boost. How in depth are they supposed to go with the story. It's not like there aren't more meaningful things that also need to be covered. It's basically just treated as a toss in.
My family had a friend in Bridlington. He had no idea that such an important sea battle happened just off of his coast. Had he lived then, I think he could have watched the battle from his porch.
Well thank you so very much for ruining a perfectly splendidly glorious historical fabrication of one of our Country's most daringly intrepid Naval Heros with paltry facts😁. Seriously, another rousing and informative tale that helped me to better understand our past. As an aside, should not the name of the "Alliance" with the Master she had been more properly the "Dalliance"? Thanks once again, Bruce.
Thanks for sharing this very interesting story. I learned something I needed to know.
So John Paul Jones, the missing sixth Beetle, was never up for a Mister Popularity Award.
You know you have problems when your own side is taking potshots at you.
A naval version of Benedict Arnold. Jones to his credit, didn't switch sides.
What a story. If it wasn't history, no one would believe this plot.
Drach, the Brits made a particular type of cannon from strips of flat forged metal which was shaped and then banded together to form the barrel which proved much better than other (cast) cannons of the time. I remember (vaguely) seeing this on I believe Discovery or History Channel some time ago, back when they made decent programmes. This type of cannon was so effecrive it stayed in use by the Navy for some considerable time as it could pierce the side planking of other naval ships.
Do you have any idea?
In the meantime I will try and find it as it must be available on the internet somewhere.
Phil Harding made a cannon like that on an episode of Time Team.
I do believe you have that backwards, cannon of banded construction came before cast cannon and are significantly inferior in almost every way. And banded cannon would not be in use by the time of this battle, or at the time any of the ships involved where built.
I think you are speaking of Carronades (nicknamed "smashers"). Not made in strips though. They were like sawed off shotguns, so a small ship could fire a huge cannonball a short distance - while they couldn't fire a regular cannon due to weight and recoil. In the right circumstances they could be a difference maker. There was quite a fad for them until a ship with only carronades came up against a smaller ship with long guns and lost, being peppered from long range without reply.
Powder magazines going off seems to be a Royal Navy tradition.
Pardon, the Sassenach Jones did not grow up in the British Empire. He grew up in Scotland, part of Great Britain and the United kingdom, not any of the imperial possessions.
Another cracking comprehensive video of that important battle
Thanks for the warts n all history, interesting times.
Brilliant. Jones isn’t presented like this in America-thanks.
JPJ reminds me of my supervisor. Competent but everyone hates them. The Alliance backstabbing everyone is a bit much though.
WHOO! The Man won! He was victorious. His posterity is secured. Destroy all the statues you want, my knowledge of our HEROIC forebears cannot be erased. They have songs and legends, such lasts much longer than stone.
If we tossed aside the memory of captains and admirals that were assholes, Drach would have no content left on his channel
Will you please do an episode about the HNLMS Abraham Crijnssen? It would be fun to know how they pulled that off!
Thanks for a nicely done video on my boyhood hero JPJ. Query, the origin of the dance bearing his name?
In September 2016, I made a pilgrimage to Flamborough Head to see what remained of the battle. It was a beautiful drive from York to the Head, where a strong wind blew off the North Sea making the cloudless day even more bracing . I asked the lady manning - can this be possible in our enlightened, if increasingly ungendered, age? - the nearby cafe if she knew the location of any memorial or monument to the battle or its participants, but she'd never heard of either. Schade!, as the crew of any passing bombarding German cruisers might have said in December 1914!
Undeterred, I roamed about the cliffs - it really is a spectacular site! - and found a monument and a marker. I've tried to attach the photos I took of them to this post, but apparently can't do so, though I'd be happy to attach them to an email to Drach if given the means to do so.
Fiveminuteguides@gmail.com
Thank you, very well made video.
wood1155 lol
It's worth noting as well we were initially going to call CV-10 the Bon Homme Richard but ended up re-naming it the Yorktown, then later naming a different Essex class, CV-31, the Bon Homme RIchard, and currently we have an LHD that bears the name.
Best description I ever saw of John Paul Jones: what happens when you take an insane Scottish naval officer, stick him in American colours, give him a French ship, and then set him loose against the English?
You get John Paul Jones.
I’m surprised Count Dankula hasn’t done a Mad Lads episode yet on this... well, Mad Lad.
Well done and always informative ,I've always enjoyed your wit and Drachisms Keep up the Good work and Carry on !
Why is it that I can picture the Monty Python crew manning the quarterdeck of USS Alliance
what a great channel. i watch/listen to these videos every day!
Did you know he also plays bass with Led Zeppelin?
He was quite the guy.
Well, he hasn't played with Led Zep in some time, but fortunately Junior is coming of age before the other boys in the band are too senile to remember how to play the songs.
Excellent Video! The paintings and your commentary were superb! I'll send it to everyone!