Seco 5/8 Insert End Mill Test Cuts on Tormach PCNC!
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- Опубликовано: 12 сен 2024
- A generous viewer sent this 5/8" Seco Insert End Mill to test on the Tormach!
Insert end mills have numerous advantages over solid carbide including price, ability to swap inserts while retaining Z and multiple cutting edges per insert! This one also features through-spindle coolant (!) and the ability to cut square shoulders (e.g. 90 degrees).
The question is can we make this larger diameter insert cutting work on the Tormach PCNC 1100? How will it perform compared to the 1/4" Solid Carbide tooling we've been using from LakeShore Carbide?
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Watching this in 2018 and the amount of progress you've made in that time is amazing.
For anyone who doesn't know:
Vc = cutting speed (not feed)
Fz = feed per tooth (z as in Zahn. the german word for tooth)
Vf = feed speed
ap = depth of cut
ae = width of cut
:)
I used the 1/2" version of this cutter and loved it but I was running a much smaller depth of cut with a fast feed rate in P20 with only a change to the cut depth when running hardened H13 (58 HRc). You do not need to use the entire flute to be efficient. When you reduce the cut depth you do reduce the hp requirements and forces involved. The shallow cuts can run very fast without overloading the machine and gets a much better finish dues the rigidity of the machine not being compromised. 800 sfm and .006" per tooth is very reasonable. Look at the SFM and feed on a lathe insert. It will be very similar. The ability of any tool is restricted by the machines ability to resist the vibration. Notice the SECO video at the end is loud but cutting deep and fast, but it is in a VMC than can handle the loads.
Awesome stuff John, I have years of experience in all sorts of manufacturing techniques and really enjoy you channel.
John, I watched your film clip on the trial of the Seco square shoulder cutter that somebody sent you to trial. My back ground was New Zealand Sales Manager for Seco Tools and I have served an apprenticeship as a fitter and turner so I understand machining very well. I think for your Tormach machine would be better suited to one of Seco's Nano Turbo cutter in 10 mm or 3/8 diameter. It has 2 inserts and it cuts very smoothly. Also comes with through coolant if you have that available on your machine. The cutter number for the metric diameter is R217.69-1010.0-06-2AN. It is also available in heavy metal for greater stability but I suggest trial the steel body first. I also watched your film on trial a face mill cutter from Sandvik and during your clip you mentioned you mill a lot of tooling plate in Aluminium and I would like to suggest another cutter from Seco that I am sure you will be impressed with the surface finish. The cutter is a face mill available in various diameters but maybe look at a 63 mm diameter part number R220.53-0063-09-6A (A is for through coolant) The inserts for machining aluminium are SEEX09T3AFN-E04 H15. These are precision ground with a very sharp edge with a polished top face and have a wiper flat width of 1.5 mm so as long as you don't exceed a table feed of more that 1.5 mm per rev the surface finish should be good. Typical cutting data for this would be 630 metres per minute with a feed rate of 0.06 per tooth - 3197 rpm with a table feed of 1150 mm per minute.
Now if this surface finish is not good enough then you can use PCD (Polycrystaline Diamond) inserts part number - SEEX09T3AFFN-L1 IN PCD20 grade. These will give you a mirror finish as I sold these to a smelter here to machine their test billets (99.9% pure ali) where an extremely high surface finish was required. Maybe I suggest you contact your local Seco Sales Engineer and ask for a trial, I am sure you will be impressed. Going back to your square shoulder milling as we call it, make sure the tools and job be kept to minimum over hang to improve stablity. Good luck. Ian Langley
Seems like your really just at the limit of the rigidity of the machine. You can hear the vibration and see the result of it in that finish.
These insert endmills will be something to come back to now that you're geting a VMC.
I was just about to say how the interpolation works well on those tools. We use them on toyoda HBMs so we have just a little more power to work with. And you're right we run the rough and the finish with the same too just flip the inserts. Great video!
I've always used my index-able end mills as a way to save money & so i take really shallow depths of cuts at 0.5mm at really high feed rates at 60 inches per min. I imagine the shallow depth will reduce heat & I can compensate with higher feed rates. Its always better to use as much of your edge as possible, but I figured since these inserts are cheap why not? Seems to work out pretty well for me so far.
BTW I have a noob machine compared to yours hope you won't judge me :/
NYC CNC
Thanks for your video, you gave me the courage to push the envelope with my cnc machine! Im doing feed 98 inch/min 0.31 inch step over & 0.11 inches DOC with my indexable end mill!
@@lineage13 what tool are you using and in which material? Also, how many HPs does your spindle has?
Hey!, longtime viewer, first-time commentor, i think you ran the depth to deep "Ap" is depth where you ran almost double it and "Ae" is width, so that might been the problem there with the shattering, my formula would have been (metric)
4976RPM
Feed: 1492mm/min
4mm Ap
1-2,5mm Ae
cant calculate HP though, but hope its more in your range :D and thanks for all the rest newly educated CNC-Operator hopefully starting to work with it next week and you have been abit of a driving force for me to go through the education =D
I agree as well, I was taught that the rule of thumb is you can only cut to a max depth of half of an insert's cutting edge length. Indexable end mills can get pretty loud otherwise hahaha
That was fun! Your right about the instincts of most people to baby their tools. Good to see you on Keith Fenners video!
Your right John we run those in the larger mills. And lathes good to hog but can only go down so deep , stick with tooling for your mill and wait until you move to the bigger tanks or bigger guns, free tool ing will come in handy can never Get enough we had box's and box's of tools that end up to the back of the shelf with damage .
Sal
Great comparisons on the recipes and nice visuals.
Cool stuff. Really great to see you pushing the Tormach a little harder each time. I'd be more interested to see closer to .008/tooth with light stepover. If you can maintain stepover, run the tool with as much chipload as the inserts allow. Sounds like you should be running a bit higher RPM to get past machine harmonics and lack of rigidity, but you should always maintain chipload.
A very good instructional video. I am learning this stuff, so all the details are very informative. Thank you.
Perhaps as an addendum, place that cutter in the Bridgeport and try to get to 1 cipm.
More power and rigidity available.
I was just looking up some info on the Shear Hog and insert tooling in general and came upon this video. I'm curious if this tool has found a home among your Haas machines and if so, how the huge difference in spindle power affects the efficiency of material removal rate and/or radial surface finish?
This tool is great for plunge milling. I removed .015 worth of spring in the finished part by plunging out the material vs. profiling. 1/2 step over in 316 SST.
Have you ever thought about running your feed rate in IPR instead of IPM. By doing this it will let the spindle bog down and slow under heavy cuts but your chip load will not increase. It will slow your IPM to maintain your chipload/IPR. it can help from breaking tooling when first entering a heavy cut.
NYC CNC yes, I don't know if your tormach will do it or not. On a HAAS mill G94 is IPM feed rate and G95 is IPR. So if you run .500 3 flute end mill @ 5000 RPM @ AT FEED OF 20 IPM you would run the same setup at .0066 IPR or a chipload of .0022 pre tooth.
I enjoyed the test cutting John! Sometimes I just amazed at the efficiency of cnc tooling.
Question, I notice climb milling is the preferred method. Can you not push cut back the other direction?
Adam
Abom79 One of the advantage of climb milling is that the chip starts thick as the cutting edge enters the workpiece and then thins out. With conventional milling it's the other way round and the cutting edge will tend to rub until there is enough tool pressure to start cutting. The cutting forces of climb milling try to take up the backlash in the feedscrews and with conventional leadscrews that can mean an unpredictable increase in the chip load which at its worst will break a cutter. I usually climb mill finishing cuts where the inherent friction in the mill table is greater than the cutting forces. I get a better finish that way. On occasion I've done duty as a 'backlash eliminator', leaning on the table during a cut!
NYC CNC Conventional can also save tool life in some instances, such as having to get under a flame cut or hardened surface where climbing would shear through that surface over and over, reducing tool life more than a conventional cut would. Even at my last job where we milled lots of die shoes on one edge for locating purposes, I still used climb milling exclusively. For one-offs it was unimportant, especially with modern high heat activated coatings like AlTiN/TiAlN.
NYC CNC The only time I ever conventional mill is with my tapered HSS endmills. They really hate climb milling and I seem to burn through them if I try.
We get good use with .03 doc, full width @ 100 ipm on the seco cutters on a hurco vmc. Try .06 woc, .3doc
Great video! After some mileage with PathPilot, how are you liking the touchscreen monitor?
Is your 1/4" carbide mill you're using on 4140 a variable flute / variable helix mill? If not, might be a good video to try out one of the Maritool or Titan VI-Pro (good reviews on PM forums) mills.
Keep up the good work!
Hi John
Enjoyed the Video very much. One thing I would try is to increase the rpm,s. I don,t think you are turning it fast enough? In the Video at the end the finish is really good and the Spindle rpm,s sound allot faster. Would be interesting to try it again with higher rpm,s.
Cheers
Bill
Wow, that was very interesting and also entertaining. Sorry about the little rugly spot, and it was weird that the tool wizard had you "casting a bunk spell"...dang wizard selling your the wrong potions and knocking you down a few hit points, LOL! At least you were compensated in experience points, and nothing seriously bad happened to you gear.
See you when I see you, he he...Aloha, Chuck
I found running my 5/8" indexables at 15,000 rpm is best for blue chips! Keeps my end mill super cool at around 70 degrees! WOC 0.16, DOC 0.20, 22IPM
15K at 22IPM Thats like .0007 per tooth.
I personally like to remove the tips and run it like that, I find the body is actually much stronger than the tips and has better cutter geometry
Nice video!! ;)
you can really push the piss out of inserted endmills, even on bridgeports. of course a VMC or HMC will be able to take full advantage of them. for instance i run a 2hp bport with cnc retro, i recently requisitioned a 5/8 3 insert iscar for a job i have. each part has 4 cavities .855 w x 1.1 l x .495 deep. I ran that tool 2200 rpm @ 5 ipm, full width engagement in and a little over .2 out doc was .23 (tool max is .303)...flipped the inserts once over 6 parts...32Rc 17-4ph...i would have burned multiple 1/2" endmills trying to do that. all climb milled, air blast cooling.
on another set of 6 i ran a 1/2" TiCN slotted endmill in to clear the gap at 300 rpm @1ipm full depth and was able to do all 24 pockets at 10ipm same doc with the inserts still in great shape, no chipping or welding. i may try a trochoidal path next.
ps: the head trammed 0/0 after lol...to the chagrin of my coworker :D
Try the new Coromill 390-07. Smaller diameters and easy to index. Run the 1130 Grade. You will love it.
No need to try them. Our rep tried to push them on us and we passed. Sandvik (as far as I know) don't run promo deals like the aforementioned, and we already have solid carbide end mills that destroy inserted endmills.
Have you tried Iscar cutters used them many times and had no problems.
I'm sorry to see that the Tormach's motor seems too weak to run it properly. I would be interested to see how this tool would behave with flood cooling.
NYC CNC makes me wonder if mine (when complete) will have any chance of being usable with steel. its spindle only does 700 RPM and it has a 100W motor (320W peak, but also limited to 100W by the power supply).
before I was like, "well, it might work", now, dunno...
spindle is basically parts from a cordless drill, which can do nowhere near that level of damage to steel (though I did add a more powerful motor, stock drill came with a motor with a 50W peak).
Here's the deal John, I suggest you go with a Iscar 1/2" insert end mill and try different inserts, although my reps would tell you to try a Mitsubishi. I can put you in with the Mitsu reps. Plenty of insert choices even with the Seco. Here we're using a ISCAR HM90 E90A end mill in 1/2" and plenty of insert choices there as they are either ADKT or APKT. Iscar has good reps too and they will usually come out and do some testing with you and bring some of their stuff to try out. Message me if you want more.
yes but youre still not that limited with smaller insert tooling. plenty of choices available. I'd try different inserts. Several companies offer sample inserts you can try till you find the one that works.
have you ever tried Iscar T490 series endmills? I think these are the way to go...
Hi! What do you think about china cnc 6090 and other older models? I am beginner in working with a metal(alum). What do you mean about seco minimaster with cnc 6090Z-VFD1.5KW?
What did the load meter look like during that? O_O
Where is this great deal for a free 5/8 index-able end mill at? I want to buy.
could this be an alternative to a tormach hog shear in aluminium?
Hi maby you can show how too set upp e exel sheet sho that it is good whith feeds speds?
I whana hawe the same to my custom built cnc machine 3 axsis!! but not hundred procent how too sett it upp i use mach3 too??
LOL at the "holy shit" yeah machining steel will let you know any panels of your machine being loose or needing some baffling. I've heard of using dynamat to dampen panels and such to reduce the noise as it can lead to thinking the machine itself isn't rigid enough.
was hoping for a bigger crash, man. lol still awsome
Great little vid :-) I got some very important info from this, but not what you might expect... I want My 3D Printer to also do some CNC Machining... However, I needed to know the H/P I would need to do such stuff... The dialogue on the specs of the Tool included the H/P... I had to change my viewing settings to HD and blow it up to full screen to see the H/P clearly... Now I'm pulling my hair out... lol How do I make a 2 H/P head...??? lol I'll figure it out... :-) Thanks so much for sharing this... Everything is always helpful, even if it's not planned... :-)
+DStray Cat 3D printers aren't usually made with the rigidity and power you'll probably need. DMG does make a 3D printer/mill but that might set you back a few bucks :P
+alex tallen Thanks for your input. I am a Robotic Welding Technician, so I have a good grasp of what I need to build my unit. I used to setup and program Robots in factory environments.
+DStray Cat I've seen 3d printer/ cnc router combos but you've gotta have one hella good quality custom built 3d printer to be able to do both.
Hey John, HSMadvisor gave .075" DOC, .338" WOC, 3118 RPM, 22"/min.
2" tool stick out.
GP Tech I think I've told him four or five times now to try HSMAdvisor and he still hasn't done it!
NYC CNC Yeah, I just gave you what HSMadvisor gave at it's default, if I change the WOC to .040" then depth of cut is .375" RPM 6237, feed 135"/min, 2HP with HSM and chip thinning ticked.
Also I used AlTin coating in HSMadvisor.
I used the Tormach PCNC 1100 machine profile, .3" DOC, .125" (20%) WOC with chip thinning and HSM checked. I get 5120 RPM, 46.13 IPM for a 1.4HP cut resulting in 1.73in^3/min MRR. Mild steel, insert end mill, two flute, AlTiN.
In 4140 it lowers the RPM (presumably to maintain torque requirements) but actually increases chipload. Same power, 1.8in^3/min.
Edit: watched the video again and saw the screenshot of aP of .157 and aE of .2, that gives 5014 RPM (820 SFM) at 55.09 IPM (.00549/flute) for a 1.4HP cut, 1.73in^3/min MRR (again, mild steel, or 'Low Carbon Steel 5-20 Rc' in HSMAdvisor).
atomkinder67 I just used the parameters for my mill, I did think later I should've used the one for the Tormach.
For me, I'll stick to solid carbide on steel, unless the insert end mill has at least 3 inserts.
You need to try a high feed cutter, I can get MMR in 4140 of 1.5 easy. I'll post you a video when i a minute.
Widget Works Manufacturing Inc. Right on with a high feed , they make them in inserted tools and solid carbide .
But shop around ceratizit vs known manufacture has a big price difference.
Both, I've used solid carbides and inserted in the tormach. Wida offers fantastic solid carbide high feed cutter and they are priced really well for the quality. If you want inserts go with seco, freaking fantastic tools and a steal if you get them there productivity kits. One down side with inserted cutters is the smaller ones only 2 insert with makes them super loud as you may have noticed with that square four.
insert tools works a bit different at least mine do
you go half the dept of the height of the plate max
but you can use ful body with that best result wil be 3/4 of the body
what you do is take a cut with the ful height of the plate its better not to do that
also for low power machine`s they put a low valeu`s on the box as wel
my machine takes a 100 mm 7 plate at 1000 rpm and 800 mm/min feed full body 3 mm dept on 34 hrc before it stops on 4140
the body is a sandvick r390 100 mm and plate sandvick r390 1806
i saw your crash and what you did wrong , with the path that you took is putting the force on the part liniar to the vise. so the part can move on you. next time try to remove material on the y not on the x with the vise setup as you have . hope you read this i can give you allot of advise on insert milling ( but iam a noob on solid carbide cutters)
NYC CNC I've actually been experimenting with a 5/8" indexable with APMT1135 inserts. Same exact thing happened to me. Yanked it right out of the vise. I even suspected it might do that so I put some unholy gronk on the vise handle and it still ripped it right out. The friction of the tight vise jaws even kind of ripped the surface of the steel a little. I really hope I can get it to work because the inserts last forever and a $70 solid carbide 1/2" roughing endmill lasts less than 16 WarBlocks.
Ap stands for DoC. Your cuts were double the suggested DoC :P Also, when you knocked over the part, it looks like you chipped the hell out of the corners which would explain the rough floor on the adaptive test.
You keep wanting to stay in the torque curve of the Tormach, and I'm questioning the logic there. I say that because you're sacrificing the SFM that the tool wants to operate properly to get into the meat of the Tormach's torque...yet what you could be doing instead is using that higher RPM to reduce the needed torque of the cut while simultaneously increasing the MRR.
For example: Your cut parameters of .3 DoC, .1 WoC at 2445 RPM and 33.2 IPM takes 443.7 oz-in of torque for an MRR of 1.02. What I would do instead is .157 DoC, .125 WoC at 5000 RPM (818 SFM) and 60 IPM which takes only 256.5 oz-in of torque (and 1.27 HP) for an MRR of 1.18.
Get out of your comfort zone! Make mistakes...break shit! And learn from the experience :D
NYC CNC There's a machinist saying that goes, "Push 'til it breaks, then back off 1."
I'll see what we have lying around that I can loan you :) Max size for R8 is 3/4" right?
wonder how it performs in AL?
Not well; it's a negative rake cutter. The Turbo Mill or Aeromaster router would be a much better choice.
Seems like your setup is not rigid enough. Compare the Tormach results to the Seco, and the finish is night & day. I'd try and match the finish and live with the lower productivity. Using a different tool holder could make a big difference to rigidity. With that level of vibration the tools lifespan will be particularly shortened. If you reduced the DOC you should get less tool deflection and a better finish, and should get rid of the nasty burring at the top of the cut.
I think your cuts are too deep.
With that machine i would attempt the cut like this.
5200rpm
0.1inch depth of cut
5/8 inch width of cut
50inch/min feed
according to my calculations you would get a material removal of 3.20cubic inches/min
and engine power needed would be around 0.9 HP
Oh and for everyone trying to calculate between metric and imperial, Sandvik has a nice milling app for your phone. if you switch between metric and imperial it automatically calculates the values.
John, that is to deep. AP max should be little bitl lower then half of the insert max!
Then you push on feed, that what is indexable all about.
look /watch?v=g6Jpa1w8a0w I was running Kenaametal 16mm 2 flute indexable, to the VF2 limits (by feed and speed)
Half of insert?
I would say no.
Please look /watch?v=g6Jpa1w8a0w Its my video testing max feed that mill can go. 28m/min I call good.
DOC is 0.625mm but you can feed hell out of it.
I usually run my indexables (16,20,25mm) to max 1mm DOC but with very high feedrates. (Haas VF2 and VM6)
Yeah. It's a "free" tool the manufacturer doesn't factor and divide the price of into the price of the inserts.
As someone already said, you had too much depth of cut. If SECO used 0.236 you shouldn't use 0.3 and expect no problems, I think.
Right on about cheap tools, I got two sets from grizzly to learn with and after getting a nice made in America tool, I'll be giving my cheap end mills away.
NYC CNC: Only $5? In my infinite beginner's "wisdom", I bought an $88 carbide 3/8" roughing/finishing endmill and promptly broke it off (between the big brown slow boat dropping it off and setting sail for the neighbor's) by not managing heat and evacuating chips while cutting aluminum. Much swearing was heard in the garage that day. Then I did it again with a $66 one. Then a $55 one. Finally I started listening to people that machine for a living, started buying appropriate tooling and using appropriate feeds and speeds.
Which reminds me, video ideas, if you haven't done them yet:
"These are good chips and bad chips in [material] and here's why (Reading your chips/surface finish 101)"
"Reading your chips/surface finish 201: Aluminum doesn't change color from temperature. Here's how you can get a good idea you have the correct feeds and speeds."
"This is why chipload per tooth is important. (Don't just use the defaults on online F&S calculators, here's a decent starting point for [material] in the absence of mfg. recommendations)"
and
"This is can be an expensive hobby. (Choosing the right tooling for what you've got and what you plan to do.)"
Oh and the followup to that last one:
"There's a time and a place for 4 flute end mills (And aluminum usually isn't it.)"
Where is the coolant? And if you can't feel THOSE "surface imperfections" you'd better get your fingers recalibrated. I can feel them through the computer monitor. You're clearly operating a commercial tool on your consumer mill. Because "cutting speed" and surface finish isn't "proportional" ONLY to the tool rpm and "feed rate" and the "speed" of the CUTTING EDGE is far higher than the "rpm" of the tool and increases the further from center the cutter edge is so taking shallower cuts has no real effect on cutting ability and your machine clearly doesn't have the power/speed to operate that tool properly, you're never going to find some kind of magic combination of speed/feed to get anything but that crappy finished product. And if you think you're going to run a LARGER DIAMETER CUTTER BETTER when its going to take even more power you're clearly clueless about the whole deal. Cutting edge speed increases with diameter even if rpm does not but so does POWER REQUIRED SINCE THAT LONGER CUTTING "ARM" HAS A LOT MORE LEVERAGE OVER THE MOTOR.
Nice video!! ;)