What ???? You didn't like the three minute establishing shots of the unnamed bank robbers vehicle or the Lois Lane walking with coffee, following every step in real time???? Blasphemy.....lol
Before I watch I'm going to say that the reason the Gunn style works is because it places characters and their humanity at the core of the movies over expecting spectical and name recognition doing the heavy lifting
This speaks to the classic "Marvel vs DC conundrum" or "The Problem" It's generally accepted that traditionally, DC characters are Superheroes who happen to be people, while Marvel characters are people, who happen to be superheroes. Both work in comics, but I think on film you have to ground people, make them relatable, which snyder is particularly bad at.
I appreciate that Gunn rejected directing Batman and Superman type a-list heroes, his best words r always focusing on the little guys in these cinematic universe that end up always more relatable and likable in the weirdest way possible(in a great way)
@@naughtbutdoom8020 I think anyone who bandies about this "problem" has never read any of the better DC comics, that are absolutely about the characters as humans first. Even Superman, under the care of a good writer, is a man as much or more than he is super.
@@QuintessentialQs - "All-Star Superman" - a reader could feel Morrison was writing it as a way to elaborate the grief for his father's death. [it baffled me seeing a couple of scene lifted from All-Star, in Man of Steel (I thiught "Here we go again, Zack, lifting scenes from comics in a literal way, yet failing to reproduce the spirit behind them") ]
The DCEU feels like they looked at the history of DC film adaptation attempts, saw that only Batman was consistently successful, and decided the formula for success was to make everything Batman, but without even quite grasping what it is that makes the batman films enjoyable.
Start with that then take the worst possible versions of the heroes and somehow miss that they are just that and instead glorify that version of them.. (batman v superman for example)
Yeah, I liked the dark knight but Batman can pull off the "I'm not the hero they wanted but the hero they needed" vibe better then superman. Everything that came out past the dark knight Era has felt like a zombie else world versions of the characters. Superman is a boy scout let him boy scout. Let wonder woman be the bad a** mom of the justice league. Idk I don't even like wonder women or super man but these past movies made me not like them more.
@@TurboSilke the starting with a "broken" Batman who had already broken his do not kill rule and doesn't give 2 craps about it anymore was a really weird call. It's almost like Snyder should have taken a stab at the Injustice DC comic books, but the problem there is he probably would think Superman was the good guy.
@@andrewshandle I think a murderous Batman could have been a cool idea but they should have showed us a movie before it where it showed us what he was like before, give us a chance to understand how this Batman works before making him into a monster to show the contrast later on with him and Superman,
Best part of Supes killing Zod? He snaps his head... to the right. AT the people he's threatening. Had he not closed his eyes in surprises, SUPES would have been responsible for PUSHING Zod's eye beams toward them. Such a bad scene.
Someone actually argued that he went away form the people. Like he can't stop him from turning his head but can snap his neck against the direction he's turning. Anyway I re-watched the scene and he does pick Zod up first so I guess it goes over the family. But just shows he did have other options. Poorly written no matter how you slice it.
A subtle visual trademark of Gunn's movies, is that he understands how to translate comic book visuals into "realism" without relying on crutches that lesser designers use. Like complicated technical detail. One of the best things about Suicide Squad and Peacemaker are the comic book costumes are quite literally brought over, but realized with more logical materials for people expecting to get into fights. The designs also play up the absurdity and cross it over with a certain darkness - mad dog killers wearing primary color jumpsuits. There is nothing in live action comic book material quite like Gunn's sensibility.
And he shows a deep understanding of how to use it. Starro was a joke till he showed it was an Eldritch Horror. Then he spent half an hour of the movie yelling at us how terrible we are for feeling like that about the poor thing. Then he went "butt yah, he is objectively terrifying", only to conclude with uniting both aspects in a sincerely sad and depressing death. Not to mention he shows an appreciation of 'reality' in these worlds by making the Pizzagate nutjobs tell stories about these literal gods. Which would be deeply unsettling, given the random access to timelord tech these wacko's seem to have. If it wasn't also extremely funny AND understandable.
In retrospect, the f.up at Marvel that forced Gunn to take a sabbatical from Guardians of the Galaxy may have been the best thing to happen in superhero movies, especially if WB executives learned their lessons and stick with choosing creators that actually understand, if not outright love, the characters in their comics. (That said, James Gunn may not be a genius, but I argue that he comes pretty close. )
@@SgtKaneGunlock Those stupid internet nazis both got him work, and led to Gunn showing a genuine apology for his wrongdoings along with being rehired. To say it backfired for the nazis was an understatement.
Man of Steel could have been fixed by giving Zod a bit more dimension. He should have been portrayed as a close friend of Joe-El who had a radically different idea of how to save Krypton that brought them into conflict. Rather than the pointless subplot about Clark having some genetic index in his DNA, Zod should have wanted to recruit his former friend’s son. At the very end, Clark is almost defeated, but asks Zod to look around at the destruction that’s been caused and it mirrors how Krypton looked before the end. Instead of trying to force a Clark into killing him, Zod realizes his errors and lets himself get sucked back into the Phantom Zone along with the rest of the Kryptonians. It wouldn’t have fixed every problem with the film, but just that one character change could have fixed both the hero and villain. Instead, Superman snapped the neck of a genocidal maniac who from the start of the film wants to kill Clark, murdered his father, and is trying burn an innocent family with his heat vision because he refuses to surrender under any circumstance. It makes no sense that Clark would cry. If anything he might as well have said an 80’s action movie one liner while doing it (“Looks like you’re forcing me to make a ‘snap’ decision, Zod!”)
@@user-ps4lx8qq2c they shouldn’t have left that ambiguous. Either show us that he killed the family or don’t. There is no reason for that to have been a “maybe he did, maybe he didnt” kinda scene
Not really, we still have not only Superman doesn't give a shit, there are also Jonathan Kent who doesn't give a shit, and lets in the end Clark there with the possible trauma of not having saved him, and then there is Martha Kent who tells Clark "You owe the world nothing" .. so she also doesn't give a shit and even tells him that he also has not. And the Kents are in the end the person who made Clark to the heroic good "human" person that most people loved in Superman. So no, its not so simple to fix this movie. It is in the end just "Flying Batzilla" and not "Superman".
Before I saw 'Peacemaker' I was sure that Gunn wouldn't be able to make me feel sympathy for Peacemaker. I should never have and will never again underestimate James Gunn. Having him in charge of DC Studios is exactly what they need to reach their potential. Gunn knows what makes these characters great and how to project that to an audience.
Zach Snyder is what happens when a Micheal Bay knock off thinks he’s Quentin Tarentino. On the other hand, James Gunn actually has filmmaking ability. There’s your difference.
I feel like snyder tried too hard to make stuffs “realistic”, u got a story about a fucking dude flying and shoot laser, all u need to do is make the character sincere and likable, sometimes these qualities trumps the “edgy and cool”
@@madtitan0825 Says everything about how he sees the world that 'kind', 'friendly', and 'helpful' are seen as the unrealistic elements in a flying strong guy spaceman story.
As much as the Snyder films were... whatever the hell they were, I think Henry Cavill is a great actor for Superman. He was just unlucky enough to be in, lets say, less than stellar Superman films. I'd love to see him come back under this new direction of the DCEU and show us what he can really do with the character. I really think that he could give us a powerful, generation defining performance as Clark Kent/Kal El/Superman if given a script and a director that really did the character justice.
I think that Capital could be one of if not the best live action Superman we've ever had if he was given any material to work with. Do the Alan Moore "For the Man Who Has Everything..." story with him.
Having only seen him as Snyder Superman, I originally thought there wasn't enough Superman in Henry Cavill. Then I watched The Witcher (and the associated interviews regarding it, where he doesn't have to portray Geralt's rather grim facade), and realized there wasn't enough Henry Cavill in Snyder's Superman.
@@hughmilner7013 In most movies, it's rarely the actors fault if they don't pull off a role, it's mostly direction or writing (Roger Ebert famously always talked about this). Take John Cena, he was a wooden statue in Fast and Furious 9 which came out about three months before Suicide Squad where he was superb. Same guy a few months apart, and it's not like he learned to act between movies, Suicide Squad had better writing and direction, nothing more. I think Cavell with the right director would make an amazing Superman. I hope we get a chance to see it.
I'm not sure that he was "unlucky". When you go back and re-watch his appearance in the video announcing the Snyder Cut, it's obvious that he liked working for Snyder and wanted to do more of it. While he would certainly make a Superman/Clark Kent on par with Reeve if given the material and director, I have to wonder if he actually wants to do that, given his apparent loyalty to Snyder. If he gives up the chance he's always going to be known as the worst live-action Superman (I don't count Newton or Christopher in that list).
Well, you’ve convinced me to go out and try “The” Suicide Squad.. From the beginning it was obvious that Warner hired James Gunn because they wanted a Guardians of the Galaxy clone. He gave them something that was not a Guardians of the Galaxy clone. That is a sign of originality, and a point in his favour.
Snyder grew up reading Watchmen and everything that followed it. So everything is dark and edgy. Gunn seems to have grown up, or at least was willing to do his research beyond the 90's, reading what came before Watchmen. I think that's the difference.
If I recall correctly, Snyder said he didn't liked comics until he read the Dark Knight. So yeah, he didn't do his research eyond the 90s, because he only likes the 90s comics ^^'
I remember conversations I had before BvS and the first Guardians of the Galaxy came out. My brother asked me "how am I more excited for a movie with a talking racoon and a walking tree, than I am about the first time Batmand and Superman are in a movie together?", and a buddy of mine was able to come up with the answer. In a word, he said "heart." One had heart, the other was relying on hype.
The best parts of the MCU are when the characters just hang out and chat like normal people. The DC characters rarely talk like that. Every statement is delivered slowly with gravitas and feels like it was written by someone who's never heard natural dialogue. I tried to watch the Snyder cut and couldn't get through a quarter of it. That's why I like Peacemaker so much. "There's no wrong time to rock!"
It's Snyder. Watchmen does the same. It's like he wants to direct Airplane or Adam West's Batman but the dialog isn't quite ridiculous enough. Or not ridiculous in the right way I guess.
This is part of why Snyder's depiction of the DCU is a slog for me. It's not completely terrible (I liked Alfred, for instance), but among other issues, the dialogue is almost always absolutely painful because not a single person talks normally or fluidly. Not one. It's *exhausting* listening to the actors and actress speaking in the Snyder cut like they're in the middle of some demented sci-fi opera but without the luxuries of an intermission break, a decent background chorus for scene-matching music, or the ability for characters to actually have believable flaws. Instead it's like 4 hours of characters replaced by pod people versions of themselves...
Honestly seeing the newest dceu works like Shazam, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, The Suicide Squad and Peacemaker feels me with so much hope for this universe. They actually feel like the stories from the comic books come to life (which imo they do even better than the mcu) Like I am actually excitted for the new movies instead of just waiting to watch another trainwreck!
Well said. It started out with dark and gloomy (because they wanted everything to be like Batman), and stayed there for far too long. Marvel has succeeded because they let each property stand on their own.
I was surprised that you didn’t include Aquaman, which eschewed the gloom for a more colorful and fun aesthetic that worked really well. And I agree, Shazam is one of the best Super-Hero movies of all.
Aquaman was definitely an improvement, and I appreciated the more colorful palette and fun tone, but overall I just found it kinda overlong and dumb. Still way better than the Zack Snyder-directed stuff, but not as good as the first Wonder Woman, and nowhere near as good as Shazam, BoP, or the James Gunn stuff.
@@SteveShives I agree that Aquaman is a bit overstuffed. You should, for example, probably save one of Aquaman's exactly two villains for the second movie. While it's fun to see him in a non-villainous role, you probably don't need the Willem Dafoe character. I think dumb works for this Aquaman, though. It kinda feels like they were aiming for "early Thor movie with Dr. Strange level Kirbytone spectacle" which was I found really enjoyable after the leaden slog of BvS.
James Gunn makes audiences care about a giant mind-controlling starfish with a single line. When Zack Snyder tries to write a heartfelt humanizing line, it becomes the memed-to-death punchline of an entire franchise.
Just to add to Gunn not shying away from the goofy history of the comics, I love the ongoing references to Peacemaker taking down Kite Man in the series. I became familiar with the character through the (also extremely good) Harley Quinn animated series and I love the introduction of these minor references that help both make the universe feel more lived-in and also help bring some levity in the way of "wait, is that actually a character from the comics?"
The Harley Quinn series is good? Thats good to hear, have it on my watchlist but have been afraid to play even an episode.. then again i shouldnt be suprised, the dc animated stuff usually is good (or even great).
It should be mentioned that everything Gunn has learned about filmmaking came from his time at Troma. Watching his superhero movies you can see that influence come out. Embracing the absurd and over the top while also still telling a fun story with heart all came out of his time at Troma. People need to watch Tromeo and Juliette and Toxic Avenger 4 to really see how his style, while evolved over time, still takes from those experiences. His horror work on the Dawn of the Dead remake and Slither are also fantastic movies.
The way Peacemaker kills his father is framed like it could have been accidental, that in his heightened state of emotion he squeezed the trigger a little too hard and the shot when off. And that is the brilliance of that scene. We the audience, and even Peacemaker himself don't really know if he deliberately or accidentally killed his own father. And that is an even greater tragedy, because Peacemaker doesn't even have the closure or satisfaction of a deliberate kill. Also hot damn is John Cena a great actor. James Gunn really knows how to bring the best out former wrestlers.
Another interesting element to this interpretation is the WWII vintage Luger pistol Peacemaker uses to kill his dad. This gun is known for two things: being the standard issue pistol for Nazi officers (so of course White Dragon had one), and for having a hair trigger.
@@pjlusk7774 I thought that was a great artistic choice just for its connections to historical Nazis, but my Californian ass didn't know about the trigger sensitivity.
@@LexYeen Yeah, they were considered fiddly and unreliable. A lot of them, especially those made toward the end of the war, were poorly made. If you saw Band of Brothers, this was the same kind of gun that one of the characters accidentally shoots himself with toward the end of the series.
Snyder guys about to be upset lol you're absolutely right though. I couldn't understand why Snyder was allowed to keep making DC movies after it became clear that he didn't really understand the characters he was using. It was the "Watchmen" debacle all over again. when Watchmen came out and was so brilliant and well received, DC took all the wrong lessons from it, decided it wasn't the great story telling of depth that attracted people, it was the gritty ultraviolent adult themes, and thus they turned all their characters gritty and mature and humorless. When the Nolan Batman movies were so well received, they decided that all the characters in their movies should be portrayed as gritty and dark, instead of telling good stories... because telling good stories is hard.
“Sulky fascist wankfest” as a description of the Snyder DCEU era got you a subscriber! I got so sick of people lauding his genius when ‘SFW’ was all I saw. The Suicide Squad & Peacemaker were an amazing shift. Ground characters in their reality, & tell a good story, preferably with some humour & heart.
One show that I feel people are sleeping on is super man and Lois. I get that it’s a CW show but it genuinely gets super man better than most other media
I still remember one Man of Steel trailer that seemed perfect, then going to see the film and feeling so disappointed at the awful film I sat through. Gunn's work may not be for everyone, but I'll take it over the majority of what came before in the DCEU any day.
Same. That first full-length Man of Steel trailer still breaks my heart, because the movie it's advertising looks AMAZING. And then the actual film is nothing like that.
Yes. I’ve been a huge Superman fan since the Bronze Age. I was incredibly excited about MoS after the trailers. The actual movie was very underwhelming. We didn’t see “Clark” Clark until the final shot. Then we never saw anything like the real Superman again except in the montage in BvS where he’s saving astronauts and flood victims. I want to see the movie that all THAT shit happened in.
@@jsharp3165 I thought the trailer looked fantastic (but, I laughed at the comment that said the new season of Deadliest Catch looked a bit weird!), but there was no cinema where I was living to be able to watch it. I caught it on the plane home *after* seeing BvS in one of the then-brand new cinemas in town. I watched the whole thing waiting for Superman to appear and be super. God, what a joyless slog that movie was to get through and by the time the cataclysmic final fight began I didn't even realise that's what it was because the film's story structure is just so poor. There were no stakes about the fight, no build-up to it, the world had no clue who Superman was before the aliens arrived and demanded custody. Why would anyone care about a single random guy they've never heard of before?
My feeling is that you need storytellers, and that was something DC didn't really have under Snyder. It isn't that he had different ideas than were expected, I mean he did have different ideas, but what ailed the early DCEU was that Snyder couldn't compellingly convey those ideas. Gunn is a great storyteller who uses comedy as a conduit to make you feel a full range of emotions. Shazam, still a benchmark for DC, worked because it aimed to tell a concise story where all the ideas formed a harmony.
100%. Shazam is honestly the best solo superhero movie since Iron Man 1, and its precisely because it is extremely confident and focused about the story it's trying to tell.
It's more than that, though. Zack Snyder and David Ayer both demonstrated fundamental misunderstandings of the source material. It's extremely difficult, if not generally impossible to convey ideas that are totally antithetical to what makes those characters and teams who and what they are in any compelling way. Zack Snyder doesn't know what really makes Superman super, why the Justice League should be a team, and David Ayer had no idea what the purpose of Task Force X actually was.
@@jasontodd9 I think deconstructions are perfectly fine if you have a storyteller at the helm because you can still arrive at the right destination. Superman can be human, dark, vacillating, and still end up in a compelling story where you are more on his side than off of it. The majority of the serious Batman films have been a deconstruction of the title character, but Burton, Reeves, and Nolan succeed where Snyder fails because their movies are more concise, consistent, and character driven.
@@X2Magneto Right, except in order to 'deconstruct' anything more precisely than demolishing it with a sledgehammer, you need to understand how the character is constructed and what makes them who they are. You can't just make a character completely betray all the core values of that character and then claim "its a DeCoNsTrUcTiOn, bro!" You can't really have a Superman that's dark or vacillating, because that's not Superman. That's your edgy OC in Superman cosplay.
Empathy is what super heroes are all about though. They exist to show us qualities we already have. Stan Lee has said numerous times that all his supes were based on his own weaknesses. Even when they are as godlike as Supes, they NEED to be human.
gunn does what others failed to do in the DCEU .making the characters actual characters that audience can love and relate to .literally the main guy in DCEU superman doesnt even have a character or any personalities at all .hes just a boring badass prop with the look and peacemaker is the most interesting character in the DCEU is a fact .very well done video man 🔥
I felt that the DCEU plan was to start as grim and dark and slowly rise into more cheerful and uplifting as the influence of heroes came into the world. Which is kind of the opposite of the MCU which has become weirdly grim in tone.
Ironically trying to be different from the MCU makes the DECU look like it's trying to rip it off. MCU built up to its first crossover movie, DCEU wanted to start with it right away. MCI is lighthearted and fun, DCEU is… all the things you described. These make it seem like they wanted all the success MCU had without putting in the work and without entertaining the audience. If the DCEU was more fun and put in the work introducing characters before crossovers, it might be more siilar to MCU, but it would also feel like they respect the audience.
Funnily, DC could have still been dark and dramatic while also being entertaining, they just never quite figured out their vision and then got too reactionary to stick to their tone.
I think about that rollerskate chase/fight scene from _Birds of Prey_ more than any other movie action scene from the last ten years. It sticks out because of its practical effects and (somewhat) realistic physics, making it more exciting to watch than any of the CGI alien/robot slugfests in other superhero movies.
Great point. Often when I am watching these at home, I tend to start cleaning up, get a drink or start reading random stuff like grocery lists. Kinda going 'my headphones will let me know when to look up'. Which is why I was borrd senseless with the last 2 Avengers movies. For birds of prey it was almost directly opposite. Hey, look: a comic book movie where dialogue is written and performed to make you follow and understand everything through non verbal sounds and sound design! And one of the rare ones where action scenes tell a story! Something most blockbusters have really lost sight of. John Wick may have gone off the rails in the third one, but it still kept your attention on the action, cuz it knew: either make it interesting by telling a story or by being visually entertaining, but always keep it relatable. Otherwise I might as well be watching a screensaver.
The weirdness of DC comics has always been my favorite part of them. How they update Greek mythology in every story, and how completely absurd some sorry lines are. DC has always been more existential than Marvel (although Marvel has the bright colors and all); which is why I’ve always been a DC fan over Marvel comics.
I'm sorry Steve, I hate to veer off into the direction of your honorable mention, because I though Peacemaker was one of the cleverist shows streaming. And that's not to say the MCU's streaming series having just stole my heart and soul. But I cannot understand why so many people seem to be sleeping on Doom Patrol. I remember when Grant Morrison came aboard with "Crawling from the Wreckage" and you knew right away this wasn't going to be the old Doom Patrol anymore. My best friend and comic collecting partner stopped reading it saying "It's just too weird." From the super powered sleepwalker (a woman who can take on Superman when she's asleep) to Crazy Jane (OMG, Diane Guerrero is just one of those Pop Culture revelations) to Danny the Street (or the Brick, or the Ambulance, or the party bus - which all happen in Morrison's run of this comic) to absolute standout Brendon Frasier as Cliff Steel. I've imagined comic books coming to movies before but with Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol I was all like "There no way they could tell these stories in a movie or TV series. I mean, there was a point where the Chief lead them as just a head. No way." And here we are. Every season leaves you wanting more. And since they finally started embracing the full nature of Rita Farr's powers. . .like I said, I cannot believe how many people sleep on this show.
Peace Maker arguably is the best DC live action product I've seen for years. Then The Batman comes out which is also a great film and filled the "Noir realism" void. DC is in a good jump start point now. Hopefully the can catch it.
James Gunn making the DCEU really shine in this way proves that when you can make the audience connect with a character, it’s so easy to fall in love with the world of the DCEU. It’s not a surprise that the best of the DCEU films are the ones that put CHARACTER before cool action and visuals. Shazam and Wonder Woman were always at the top of my DCEU list for the longest time because they understood that to make the story work, we had to care about the main characters and explore them.
Long time viewer (I came for the Star Trek content) first time commenter. I had to break my silence to thank you for the rush of nostalgic glee the Mort of the Month reference gave me.
So despite hating “Man of steel” and deeply, deeply disliking “Batman v Superman” I genuinely love the Snyder Cut. It’s a deeply flawed movie but it’s the first film where Snyder actually spoke to me and I really do think that it deserves to be defended. The above said, Snyder’s first two films really are not good and you have admirably articulated why as well as articulating just why James Gunn’s film and the new TV series are so good. I very much enjoyed this review.
I agree with your thoughts on Snyder. But with James Gunn, sometimes I feel he's a little too comedic. Snyder and Gunn are literally opposites with their tones. Most of the time I prefer Gunn's versions, but sometimes it's a little too much for me too.
(I love your takes, and views on all this! This comment is directed at the toxic fandom you’ve mentioned. Thanks for being awesome!) Toxic DC fans exhibit so many traits that we see directly in society and politics today (I’ll elaborate on the political aspect shortly). They champion things like the Snyderverse, while actively ignoring all of the problems with the films. They hold these films up on a pedestal because they see them as “Anti-marvel” or “anti-woke” 🙄 (which is a ridiculous/nothing sentiment). They idolize these kinds of figures that PRESENT themselves as “kicking ass and taking names”, or “telling it like it is”….When what they really idolize is “He does what he wants and has no decorum or consideration for anyone else!”. They look up to boorish bullies who say and do TERRIBLE (sometimes fascist or racist) things, and they see that kind of attitude as admirable. Zack Snyder is a competent director, who can do great work when he plays to his strengths. But with his overindulgence and indifference to DC characterization….he should not handle DC heroes AT ALL. He is self indulgent to the extreme, and is more concerned with making a big badass mess, than he is with representing these characters in any accurate fashion. I’m a fan of MARVEL first and foremost, BUT Im also a fan of DC! I want both franchises to do great things, and make great movies! I’m not willing to accept Snyder’s grimdark trash, just because its what most of what we’ve been given. These toxic Fans im speaking of, can’t even admit that marvel does excellent work, and makes GREAT FILMS because like politicians have become, they refuse to any compromise. They see “the other side” as the enemy, and will pretend a marvel movie sucks, because it doesn’t support their Snyder love. I think it’s partially do to they way politicians operate these days. It’s because fuckers like trump have poisoned their minds with batshit rhetoric. They see a gay couple on screen and become furious because “THEYRE SHOVING IT DOWN MY THROAT!”. As if people existing was ever an affront to enjoying a comic book film. They can’t stand humor! They hate hope funny and genuinely entertaining some of the marvel stuff is because…..well…..I dunno I guess because it’s not how Snyder does it???? To them it’s wrong if it’s too bright and colorful, or too jovial, or too KIND to all people/genders/races. It’s this kind of hateful fandom that just ruins it for all of us. James Gunn is the first glimmer of hope, in my opinion, of our collective fandoms being able to unite, and maybe getting EQUALLY GREAT and well thought out stories featuring our favorite heroes! I want a new definitive SUPERMAN movie. I don’t want to settle for “Man of Steel” just because it’s dark and edgy. I don’t want to act brainwashed and blinded to the fact that Snyder and others have given us INFERIOR PRODUCTS. We the fans, deserve better work! For DC, People like James Gunn, and movies like Shazam, have been great examples of filmmakers actually breaking away, and having a chance to do better… I just hope this fandom can stop with the overt hatred of anything just because it’s bright, or funny, or has anti racist/sexist messaging. These fans…actually get MAD when a DC character says “Racism is bad, and being a misogynistic asshole is bad too”. WTF DC FANS? (Saw a lot of this with Peacemaker, which was AMAZING!!!) And before anyone says, “Well whedon did both so you’re wrong!🤬”….I’ll say, There’s examples of SHITHEADS being shitty on both DC and Marvel sides. I’d never deny that! But I will never deny that at least whedon has a million examples of CARING about filmmaking, and also BEING GOOD AT IT. I don’t like or worship the guy, but at least his movies don’t seem to treat his audience like morons and spoon feed them trash, with a slowmo veneer! Yeah, His version of justice league sucked, but it was always gonna suck, because Snyder’s JL ALREADY SUCKED, and the Snyder CUT still sucked. Don’t get mad DC fanboys. Don’t feel insulted. What I’m saying isn’t to hurt your feelings, or insult you. I Just want you to understand that YOU deserve BETTER DC movies than Snyder has offered. You deserve more like GUNN. It’s not US Versus YOU. It’s kinda just US wishing we could all have the best from both worlds! I’m guessing Steve might agree, that we can all be happy while getting Great DC AND Marvel movies, and be less toxic while doing it.
Well said, Steve. Thanks for the shout out to Doom Patrol and the CW Arrow-verse shows. "Legends of Tomorrow" is right up there in the appropriately weird DC end of the comic spectrum. Keep it up!
I had been wanting to said this for years. You probably don't know it Steve, but you are great for practicing english. There are a lot of people who struggle with understand english when someone spoke it. We have no problem to read it, but is harder to understand it when is spoken. But you have a very clearspeech. Wich is great. I can listen to it with out subtittles while I'm doing something else and practice my english.
The problem with SNYDER’s DCEU is that it has its roots in 90’s DC, which was also oppressively dark and self-important...and is the reason why so many modern comics are not to my liking...
You can call it a microcosm of how DCEU has gotten things wrong. Darkseid is the original--and IMO a better character than Thanos--with clear motivations, yet he just comes off as generic space bully. Likewise, since DC and it's tentpole heroes have been around longer than Marvel, and were created by more writers and publishers with different backgrounds than silver age Marvel, these should be richer characters, with distinct personalities. And yet the big screen versions just were not.
That moment where Superman is standing in the Capitol and looking mildly bothered by all the death surrounding him has always pissed me off. It's the complete antithesis of who that character is. Sure, maybe the chair was lined with lead but you can't tell me he wouldn't have heard that bomb get detonated and had enough time to fly over and take it out of the building even if he did so as the bomb was exploding he should've had plenty of time. In the same movie he comes to help Lois multiple times after she's pushed off a building or taken hostage without her saying a word. So he's attuned to even the smallest sounds being made anywhere in the world and he can get there in seconds. Standing right next to the bomb he should've been able to do something. Instead he just stands there then flies off without a word. What happened to the Superman who rolls up to an accident scene and asks how he can help? I hate the Snyderverse for what he did to this character especially. Who the hell thought this guy should make a Superman movie? He'd just made the opposite of this in Watchmen. There were plenty of better options out there. Now it's done. They were in such a hurry they had no choice but to keep him on board because given the time constraints they'd laid out for themselves it was impossible to course correct between movies. They were so desperate to catch Marvel and probably didn't want to look like they'd made a huge mistake putting a guy known for being horribly bleak in charge we have the definitive Justice League. Instead of finding the right person and spending a few extra months or years in pre-production we're stuck with this as the Justice League as well as the only version of what should've been a classic match up between Superman and Batman. You can't just make it again. It's not like starting over and over on Batman or Spider-Man. This is the only one we're going to get of that story and it makes me so pissed which I don't like feeling.
The only problem I have with Shazam is the mess it made of Sivvana. The whole basis of the character in his EVERY appearance is that he's a scientist who's encountered empirical proof that magic is real and that this has driven him so batshit insane he's dedicated his entire life to killing the Shazams and their rogues gallery just to make the universe rational again. That is one of the most hillarious villain origins ever concieved and fits perfectly with the tone of the film. Why they had to 180 him into another rejected Shazam Champion is beyond me. Especially when a more comic alligned Sivvana would come across as a blatant fuck you to the Snyder view of comicbook filmaking... I've just answered my own question haven't I...
My biggest issue with Shazam, and this also stands for a lot of the more recent DC Animated movies is they make Shazam act _way_ more immature than they make Billy Batson act, and it's just weird. In the movie he's this mopey, too cool teenager but as Shazam he's like an 8 year old. It's a bit weird, but overall there was enough good in the movie to make it a fun watch. But yes, the direction they went with Sivvana was a weird choice.
Time to stop disrepecting Joel Schumacher's Batman movies, then, eh? Personally, I'll take them over the glum and slow Dark Knight Trilogy because they're bright, colorful and quite frankly... insane. "Holey rusty metal, Batman!" 'What?' "The surface: it's metal, rusty and full of holes. Be careful." Classic.
I feel like such a killjoy, but… like, I just don’t understand the humor in The Suicide Squad. Or, rather, I understand it intellectually, but the tension between the jokey tone and the ‘structure’ of the gags, and how horribly, brutally violent they are, makes the film feel queasy and cynical to me. I don’t mind bloody violence, but I don’t understand how to make it legible as comedy - like, how can you watch a guy get stabbed multiple times in the chest and stomach and not feel a bit sickened? I’m not trying to be a scold, here; I just genuinely don’t get it.
You know, maybe that's why the only Superhero Movie Snyder did well was Watchmen - because the whole plot is about how Doctor Manhattan's fading empathy crippled him, and Ozymandias feelings of alienation and superiority lead to to treat people as a problem to solve rather than people. While Doctor Manhattan definitely echos Superman in a way, he's very much a negative mirror, an anti-Superman (without actually being a villain), while Ozymandias is an Anti-Batman (I'm not going to start the whole Ozymandias debate again, I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread already knows it and has already taken a stand). Snyder's view and version of superheroes works there, because his natural approach to the medium echos the inherent and internal character flaws of these character. Alienation, feelings of superiority, and 'the weight of responsibility' wielded as a cudgel rather than burden. But you can't write Superman like you would write Manhattan. They're very very different characters. Though, to be frank, if Manhattan was 'fighting' to save a city, he still would have done a better job than Snyder's Superman did. He might not care about people in a personal sense, but he does care about a kind of cold-blooded efficacy of action. Superman should never be less concerned about saving people than Manhattan.
I absolutely agree. Though I think darker versions of previously happy things can work, in fact I often like that idea, it seems that people often miss why that works. Making something darker just to get your edgy rocks off isn't the point. But compelling the audience to think by putting our happy character into a drak place can be a quick way of establishing a ready built plot because from the beginning we will hope for a return to brightness that we wouldn't have if we just met this person. But it is a tight balance to walk, and one which should be used sparingly lest it lose its effect even when done correctly.
You really get me. I've been saying these exact same things about the DCEU, and specifically the Snyderverse. Add in that they rush through about three or four movies where they could have developed Superman and jump right to a shitty mash-up of Dark Knight Returns and Death of Superman, and then force the Justice League on us without the organic flow if storytelling that allowed Marvel to build up to The Avengers. Gunn has, in one movie and a single season of a television show, made a better universe than anyone else did up until that point. I know I seem to be in the minority here, but one huge reason is that he didn't have Goyer co-writing his work. While Goyer is knowledgeable about comic lore, but he haphazardly picks bits and pieces of various storylines and story arcs and blends them into narratives that aren't entirely cohesive or entertaining. And what other director could take Polka-Dot Man, a joke character from the Silver Age, and make me actually feel sad when he dies? Now, having said all that, I need to go back in hiding before the Snyder cult from Tumblr find out I'm talking smack about their golden boy again.
Fantastic review Steve, and thanks for pointing out the show! I don't think I would have looked for it otherwise! My problem with MoS is that Zack Snyder does not understand why people love Superman. He seemed to think he understood Batman and basically said "Same universe, fuck it." Batman called Superman the Boyscout in the comics for a reason, but either Syner didn't know or didn't care.
I think it's worth noting that Warner's tried to birth a connected DC movie-verse from "Green Lantern" as their "Iron Man," (with the lighter Marvel-style and "talented man-boy" protagonist template) but Nolan and his Batman trilogy was extremely successful ... and dark. So, the DCEU became more dark and maybe opened the door for Snyder's interpretation.(these are just dots in my head, I purport to have no factual knowledge)
I disagree about what you say about man of steel, general was a threat to huminity more dangerous than white dragon , no prison cells would have been able to hold. They both just fought across metropolis and space, superman couldn't stop him.
When Characters like Peacemaker, Polkadot Man or Ratcatcher 2 become better Characters than Superman, Batman or The Flash...then you know something is wrong here
Which brings me to my dream... James Gunn getting a take on Justice League... but going for the Justice League International phase sourcing from Keith Giffen and J. M. DeMatteis. That, rebooting Justice League, would be a dream
Now they just need to take Pattinson's Batman and team him up with Swamp Thing, Zatana, Deadman, and Constantine, and make that the mainline DCEU. Appropriately dark, but still with the silliness of Deadman and Zatana and Constantine's being formerly in a relationship.
It's so fascinating to watch one the most "MCU" directors be the one to set up a template that can actually rival the MCU, like it's depends on how Moon Knight turns but I can't see Disney giving us anything like the Netflix stuff much less, something like this. I"m still in the camp that somewhat defends Man of Steel, I still think you could've done and build something from the premise of "Neo con" Superman but they completely blew it by rushing and at this point makes no sense trying to unscramble that egg. Just do Flashpoint or whatever and reset the whole thing. Also I just remembered with all the Charlton comic references that he's what the Comedian from Watchmen is based on. So That "Peacemaker What a joke" line has an extra layer of meaning to it.
From an otherwise sterling review you forgot James Wan's AQUAMAN had an octopus drummer and it worked! Also weird variations of Atlanteans who were varying combinations of humanoids and aquatic life.
I found Aquaman to be a big improvement over the Snyder-directed stuff, and it has some fun elements like the ones you mentioned, but overall I didn't think it was that great, which is why I didn't mention it specifically.
I havent watched peacemaker, Dont think I will. : ( I have seen Suicide Squad. However I share your opinion. As this is a better way to portray these characters. But my stomach can't handle the gory nature of these shows, I barely ended S.Squad. Belive me I'd love to enjoy this but I flinch during the killings. Super empathy is my super... weakness? XD
Steve Shives What are your thoughts on the upcoming DCU skate, from James Gunn's Superman and Andy Muschietti's The Brave and the Bold to Lanterns and Booster Gold?
One point, WB got rid of Donner and instead went for Richard Lester who butchered 51% of Superman 2, so clearly they've had a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot for a very long time ;)
I cannot agree more. Super Hero movies should be foremost Super Hero movies. It's totally ok to have a gloomy and dark Batman movie, it fits the theme, but Man of Steel completely misses the point of Superman being an uplifting and just figure, one who would put the good of other people above his in an instant and without a doubt, a person who, seeing Zodd gearing up for battle, would had immediately charged him and thrown him into a deserted land to fight instead of leveling a city. Oh look, here I am again lamenting about Superman destroying a city... See why we need fun Super Hero movies, DEAR SOCIETY?
A strange opposing parallel between peacemaker and superman is while peacemaker kills freely he ends his alien invasion story by sharing a beer (and some nectar) with the main alien bad guy, while superman can find no better way out of his situation than to kill his main alien bad guy.
Ok wait a minute - Have you seen the batman trailers? I mean they look like they continue to double down on the very dark view of batman. The reason batman is so dark is that they set superman as imperfect through the death of his father. Superman is suppose to be well adjusted kid. This is a really important part of his back story that they changed casually. Batman stands next to super man - maniac compared to well adjusted - rich to poor. Intense to relaxed. I think the Brain Trust as you call them have learned nothing because they are narcissists and unable to recognize empathy or feel anything. They don't understand the internal world that the super heroes go through because they only see the external impacts of those stories. Thanks for the thoughts - could stuff.
Calling the Justice League 2021 version the Snyder Cut seems wrong as there doesn't appear to have been any cutting whatsoever.
Best comment.
"The Snyder Paste". Yeah, that sums it up nicely.
@@kallisto9166 "Snyder Paste" sounds like a grey goo disaster, which I find entirely appropriate
What ???? You didn't like the three minute establishing shots of the unnamed bank robbers vehicle or the Lois Lane walking with coffee, following every step in real time???? Blasphemy.....lol
Sadly I still enjoy it more than Joss Whedon's version. That toxic human adding humor somehow made that movie worse.
Before I watch I'm going to say that the reason the Gunn style works is because it places characters and their humanity at the core of the movies over expecting spectical and name recognition doing the heavy lifting
This speaks to the classic "Marvel vs DC conundrum" or "The Problem" It's generally accepted that traditionally, DC characters are Superheroes who happen to be people, while Marvel characters are people, who happen to be superheroes. Both work in comics, but I think on film you have to ground people, make them relatable, which snyder is particularly bad at.
@@naughtbutdoom8020 now Gunn has done that for both Marvel and DC with Guardians and Peacemaker respectively
I appreciate that Gunn rejected directing Batman and Superman type a-list heroes, his best words r always focusing on the little guys in these cinematic universe that end up always more relatable and likable in the weirdest way possible(in a great way)
@@naughtbutdoom8020 I think anyone who bandies about this "problem" has never read any of the better DC comics, that are absolutely about the characters as humans first. Even Superman, under the care of a good writer, is a man as much or more than he is super.
@@QuintessentialQs - "All-Star Superman" - a reader could feel Morrison was writing it as a way to elaborate the grief for his father's death.
[it baffled me seeing a couple of scene lifted from All-Star, in Man of Steel (I thiught "Here we go again, Zack, lifting scenes from comics in a literal way, yet failing to reproduce the spirit behind them") ]
The DCEU feels like they looked at the history of DC film adaptation attempts, saw that only Batman was consistently successful, and decided the formula for success was to make everything Batman, but without even quite grasping what it is that makes the batman films enjoyable.
Start with that then take the worst possible versions of the heroes and somehow miss that they are just that and instead glorify that version of them.. (batman v superman for example)
Yeah, I liked the dark knight but Batman can pull off the "I'm not the hero they wanted but the hero they needed" vibe better then superman.
Everything that came out past the dark knight Era has felt like a zombie else world versions of the characters.
Superman is a boy scout let him boy scout. Let wonder woman be the bad a** mom of the justice league. Idk I don't even like wonder women or super man but these past movies made me not like them more.
@@TurboSilke the starting with a "broken" Batman who had already broken his do not kill rule and doesn't give 2 craps about it anymore was a really weird call. It's almost like Snyder should have taken a stab at the Injustice DC comic books, but the problem there is he probably would think Superman was the good guy.
@@andrewshandle I think a murderous Batman could have been a cool idea but they should have showed us a movie before it where it showed us what he was like before, give us a chance to understand how this Batman works before making him into a monster to show the contrast later on with him and Superman,
@@andrewshandle Snyder wanted to make Injustice, while completely missing the point of Injustice.
Best part of Supes killing Zod? He snaps his head... to the right. AT the people he's threatening. Had he not closed his eyes in surprises, SUPES would have been responsible for PUSHING Zod's eye beams toward them. Such a bad scene.
Someone actually argued that he went away form the people. Like he can't stop him from turning his head but can snap his neck against the direction he's turning. Anyway I re-watched the scene and he does pick Zod up first so I guess it goes over the family. But just shows he did have other options. Poorly written no matter how you slice it.
@@rbourne35 goyer and nolan tried to talk snyder out of doing this.
A subtle visual trademark of Gunn's movies, is that he understands how to translate comic book visuals into "realism" without relying on crutches that lesser designers use. Like complicated technical detail. One of the best things about Suicide Squad and Peacemaker are the comic book costumes are quite literally brought over, but realized with more logical materials for people expecting to get into fights. The designs also play up the absurdity and cross it over with a certain darkness - mad dog killers wearing primary color jumpsuits. There is nothing in live action comic book material quite like Gunn's sensibility.
And he shows a deep understanding of how to use it.
Starro was a joke till he showed it was an Eldritch Horror.
Then he spent half an hour of the movie yelling at us how terrible we are for feeling like that about the poor thing.
Then he went "butt yah, he is objectively terrifying", only to conclude with uniting both aspects in a sincerely sad and depressing death.
Not to mention he shows an appreciation of 'reality' in these worlds by making the Pizzagate nutjobs tell stories about these literal gods.
Which would be deeply unsettling, given the random access to timelord tech these wacko's seem to have. If it wasn't also extremely funny AND understandable.
In retrospect, the f.up at Marvel that forced Gunn to take a sabbatical from Guardians of the Galaxy may have been the best thing to happen in superhero movies, especially if WB executives learned their lessons and stick with choosing creators that actually understand, if not outright love, the characters in their comics.
(That said, James Gunn may not be a genius, but I argue that he comes pretty close. )
i really want to laugh at the person responsible for that because not only did it not end up working it backfired spectacularly
@@SgtKaneGunlock
Those stupid internet nazis both got him work, and led to Gunn showing a genuine apology for his wrongdoings along with being rehired.
To say it backfired for the nazis was an understatement.
Man of Steel could have been fixed by giving Zod a bit more dimension. He should have been portrayed as a close friend of Joe-El who had a radically different idea of how to save Krypton that brought them into conflict. Rather than the pointless subplot about Clark having some genetic index in his DNA, Zod should have wanted to recruit his former friend’s son. At the very end, Clark is almost defeated, but asks Zod to look around at the destruction that’s been caused and it mirrors how Krypton looked before the end. Instead of trying to force a Clark into killing him, Zod realizes his errors and lets himself get sucked back into the Phantom Zone along with the rest of the Kryptonians. It wouldn’t have fixed every problem with the film, but just that one character change could have fixed both the hero and villain.
Instead, Superman snapped the neck of a genocidal maniac who from the start of the film wants to kill Clark, murdered his father, and is trying burn an innocent family with his heat vision because he refuses to surrender under any circumstance. It makes no sense that Clark would cry. If anything he might as well have said an 80’s action movie one liner while doing it (“Looks like you’re forcing me to make a ‘snap’ decision, Zod!”)
Thought he cried because when he snapped Zod's neck because it lead to the family dying.
@@user-ps4lx8qq2c they shouldn’t have left that ambiguous. Either show us that he killed the family or don’t. There is no reason for that to have been a “maybe he did, maybe he didnt” kinda scene
Not really, we still have not only Superman doesn't give a shit, there are also Jonathan Kent who doesn't give a shit, and lets in the end Clark there with the possible trauma of not having saved him, and then there is Martha Kent who tells Clark "You owe the world nothing" .. so she also doesn't give a shit and even tells him that he also has not.
And the Kents are in the end the person who made Clark to the heroic good "human" person that most people loved in Superman. So no, its not so simple to fix this movie. It is in the end just "Flying Batzilla" and not "Superman".
Doom Patrol is so packed with empathy that I could see it legitimately changing someone's outlook on life.
Before I saw 'Peacemaker' I was sure that Gunn wouldn't be able to make me feel sympathy for Peacemaker. I should never have and will never again underestimate James Gunn. Having him in charge of DC Studios is exactly what they need to reach their potential. Gunn knows what makes these characters great and how to project that to an audience.
Zach Snyder is what happens when a Micheal Bay knock off thinks he’s Quentin Tarentino. On the other hand, James Gunn actually has filmmaking ability. There’s your difference.
I feel like snyder tried too hard to make stuffs “realistic”, u got a story about a fucking dude flying and shoot laser, all u need to do is make the character sincere and likable, sometimes these qualities trumps the “edgy and cool”
That description is probably one of the worst person I could ever thing to work in the entertainment industry.
@@madtitan0825 Says everything about how he sees the world that 'kind', 'friendly', and 'helpful' are seen as the unrealistic elements in a flying strong guy spaceman story.
Funnily enough, Bay and Snyder attended the same film school
@@jaredgarcia8638 Well, now that clears everything.
As much as the Snyder films were... whatever the hell they were, I think Henry Cavill is a great actor for Superman. He was just unlucky enough to be in, lets say, less than stellar Superman films. I'd love to see him come back under this new direction of the DCEU and show us what he can really do with the character. I really think that he could give us a powerful, generation defining performance as Clark Kent/Kal El/Superman if given a script and a director that really did the character justice.
I think that Capital could be one of if not the best live action Superman we've ever had if he was given any material to work with.
Do the Alan Moore "For the Man Who Has Everything..." story with him.
Having only seen him as Snyder Superman, I originally thought there wasn't enough Superman in Henry Cavill. Then I watched The Witcher (and the associated interviews regarding it, where he doesn't have to portray Geralt's rather grim facade), and realized there wasn't enough Henry Cavill in Snyder's Superman.
@@hughmilner7013 In most movies, it's rarely the actors fault if they don't pull off a role, it's mostly direction or writing (Roger Ebert famously always talked about this). Take John Cena, he was a wooden statue in Fast and Furious 9 which came out about three months before Suicide Squad where he was superb. Same guy a few months apart, and it's not like he learned to act between movies, Suicide Squad had better writing and direction, nothing more. I think Cavell with the right director would make an amazing Superman. I hope we get a chance to see it.
I'm not sure that he was "unlucky". When you go back and re-watch his appearance in the video announcing the Snyder Cut, it's obvious that he liked working for Snyder and wanted to do more of it.
While he would certainly make a Superman/Clark Kent on par with Reeve if given the material and director, I have to wonder if he actually wants to do that, given his apparent loyalty to Snyder. If he gives up the chance he's always going to be known as the worst live-action Superman (I don't count Newton or Christopher in that list).
I hope every actor that got involved with Snyder goes on to have a long successful life.
The real Peacemaker was, literally, the friends we made along the way
Well, you’ve convinced me to go out and try “The” Suicide Squad.. From the beginning it was obvious that Warner hired James Gunn because they wanted a Guardians of the Galaxy clone. He gave them something that was not a Guardians of the Galaxy clone. That is a sign of originality, and a point in his favour.
@@Fiveash-Art same parts diffrent configuration....that and like 2/3rds of the cast die of in the first 12 minutes of the movie
Snyder grew up reading Watchmen and everything that followed it. So everything is dark and edgy. Gunn seems to have grown up, or at least was willing to do his research beyond the 90's, reading what came before Watchmen. I think that's the difference.
Snyder remakes every film as a ponderous version of Watchmen.
If I recall correctly, Snyder said he didn't liked comics until he read the Dark Knight. So yeah, he didn't do his research eyond the 90s, because he only likes the 90s comics ^^'
I remember conversations I had before BvS and the first Guardians of the Galaxy came out. My brother asked me "how am I more excited for a movie with a talking racoon and a walking tree, than I am about the first time Batmand and Superman are in a movie together?", and a buddy of mine was able to come up with the answer. In a word, he said "heart." One had heart, the other was relying on hype.
The best parts of the MCU are when the characters just hang out and chat like normal people. The DC characters rarely talk like that. Every statement is delivered slowly with gravitas and feels like it was written by someone who's never heard natural dialogue. I tried to watch the Snyder cut and couldn't get through a quarter of it.
That's why I like Peacemaker so much. "There's no wrong time to rock!"
It's Snyder. Watchmen does the same. It's like he wants to direct Airplane or Adam West's Batman but the dialog isn't quite ridiculous enough. Or not ridiculous in the right way I guess.
You are a hero - I could not get through the first quarter of an hour of the Snyder Cut.
I skip some of the part that were already in 2017 JL.
This is part of why Snyder's depiction of the DCU is a slog for me. It's not completely terrible (I liked Alfred, for instance), but among other issues, the dialogue is almost always absolutely painful because not a single person talks normally or fluidly. Not one. It's *exhausting* listening to the actors and actress speaking in the Snyder cut like they're in the middle of some demented sci-fi opera but without the luxuries of an intermission break, a decent background chorus for scene-matching music, or the ability for characters to actually have believable flaws. Instead it's like 4 hours of characters replaced by pod people versions of themselves...
Honestly seeing the newest dceu works like Shazam, Aquaman, Wonder Woman, The Suicide Squad and Peacemaker feels me with so much hope for this universe. They actually feel like the stories from the comic books come to life (which imo they do even better than the mcu) Like I am actually excitted for the new movies instead of just waiting to watch another trainwreck!
Well said. It started out with dark and gloomy (because they wanted everything to be like Batman), and stayed there for far too long.
Marvel has succeeded because they let each property stand on their own.
I was surprised that you didn’t include Aquaman, which eschewed the gloom for a more colorful and fun aesthetic that worked really well. And I agree, Shazam is one of the best Super-Hero movies of all.
Aquaman was definitely an improvement, and I appreciated the more colorful palette and fun tone, but overall I just found it kinda overlong and dumb. Still way better than the Zack Snyder-directed stuff, but not as good as the first Wonder Woman, and nowhere near as good as Shazam, BoP, or the James Gunn stuff.
@@SteveShives I agree that Aquaman is a bit overstuffed. You should, for example, probably save one of Aquaman's exactly two villains for the second movie. While it's fun to see him in a non-villainous role, you probably don't need the Willem Dafoe character. I think dumb works for this Aquaman, though. It kinda feels like they were aiming for "early Thor movie with Dr. Strange level Kirbytone spectacle" which was I found really enjoyable after the leaden slog of BvS.
@@SteveShives The biggest improvement to Aquaman was when it was confirmed that he fucks fish ngl
@@rebeccachiba5674 "Fuck you, Barry."
@@SteveShives Fair enough! I too thought it was a bit long, but I enjoyed it. It felt kinda silver agey, deciding to go for a more fun a simple vibe.
James Gunn makes audiences care about a giant mind-controlling starfish with a single line.
When Zack Snyder tries to write a heartfelt humanizing line, it becomes the memed-to-death punchline of an entire franchise.
"WHY YOU SAY THAT NAME"
Just to add to Gunn not shying away from the goofy history of the comics, I love the ongoing references to Peacemaker taking down Kite Man in the series. I became familiar with the character through the (also extremely good) Harley Quinn animated series and I love the introduction of these minor references that help both make the universe feel more lived-in and also help bring some levity in the way of "wait, is that actually a character from the comics?"
The Harley Quinn series is good? Thats good to hear, have it on my watchlist but have been afraid to play even an episode.. then again i shouldnt be suprised, the dc animated stuff usually is good (or even great).
Started watching it yesterday and finished with the first season. Hell yeah! Its great!
@@TurboSilke nice
I don't think MoS and BvS are bad. They are mediocre film. But people keep telling me they are masterpiece.
That make me hate the film.
It should be mentioned that everything Gunn has learned about filmmaking came from his time at Troma. Watching his superhero movies you can see that influence come out. Embracing the absurd and over the top while also still telling a fun story with heart all came out of his time at Troma. People need to watch Tromeo and Juliette and Toxic Avenger 4 to really see how his style, while evolved over time, still takes from those experiences. His horror work on the Dawn of the Dead remake and Slither are also fantastic movies.
The way Peacemaker kills his father is framed like it could have been accidental, that in his heightened state of emotion he squeezed the trigger a little too hard and the shot when off.
And that is the brilliance of that scene. We the audience, and even Peacemaker himself don't really know if he deliberately or accidentally killed his own father. And that is an even greater tragedy, because Peacemaker doesn't even have the closure or satisfaction of a deliberate kill.
Also hot damn is John Cena a great actor. James Gunn really knows how to bring the best out former wrestlers.
Another interesting element to this interpretation is the WWII vintage Luger pistol Peacemaker uses to kill his dad. This gun is known for two things: being the standard issue pistol for Nazi officers (so of course White Dragon had one), and for having a hair trigger.
@@pjlusk7774 I thought that was a great artistic choice just for its connections to historical Nazis, but my Californian ass didn't know about the trigger sensitivity.
Gunn knows how to bring out the best in every actor.
@@LexYeen Yeah, they were considered fiddly and unreliable. A lot of them, especially those made toward the end of the war, were poorly made.
If you saw Band of Brothers, this was the same kind of gun that one of the characters accidentally shoots himself with toward the end of the series.
Vesperitis.
Agreed.
A show like this lives or dies by its lead, and Cena perfectly balanced the goofiness and the pathos.
Snyder guys about to be upset lol you're absolutely right though. I couldn't understand why Snyder was allowed to keep making DC movies after it became clear that he didn't really understand the characters he was using. It was the "Watchmen" debacle all over again. when Watchmen came out and was so brilliant and well received, DC took all the wrong lessons from it, decided it wasn't the great story telling of depth that attracted people, it was the gritty ultraviolent adult themes, and thus they turned all their characters gritty and mature and humorless. When the Nolan Batman movies were so well received, they decided that all the characters in their movies should be portrayed as gritty and dark, instead of telling good stories... because telling good stories is hard.
“Sulky fascist wankfest” as a description of the Snyder DCEU era got you a subscriber! I got so sick of people lauding his genius when ‘SFW’ was all I saw.
The Suicide Squad & Peacemaker were an amazing shift. Ground characters in their reality, & tell a good story, preferably with some humour & heart.
I would love to see James Gunn direct a Blue Beetle/Booster Gold movie.
One show that I feel people are sleeping on is super man and Lois.
I get that it’s a CW show but it genuinely gets super man better than most other media
One of the few good CW shows
I still remember one Man of Steel trailer that seemed perfect, then going to see the film and feeling so disappointed at the awful film I sat through.
Gunn's work may not be for everyone, but I'll take it over the majority of what came before in the DCEU any day.
Same. That first full-length Man of Steel trailer still breaks my heart, because the movie it's advertising looks AMAZING. And then the actual film is nothing like that.
Yes. I’ve been a huge Superman fan since the Bronze Age. I was incredibly excited about MoS after the trailers. The actual movie was very underwhelming. We didn’t see “Clark” Clark until the final shot. Then we never saw anything like the real Superman again except in the montage in BvS where he’s saving astronauts and flood victims. I want to see the movie that all THAT shit happened in.
@@jsharp3165 I thought the trailer looked fantastic (but, I laughed at the comment that said the new season of Deadliest Catch looked a bit weird!), but there was no cinema where I was living to be able to watch it. I caught it on the plane home *after* seeing BvS in one of the then-brand new cinemas in town. I watched the whole thing waiting for Superman to appear and be super. God, what a joyless slog that movie was to get through and by the time the cataclysmic final fight began I didn't even realise that's what it was because the film's story structure is just so poor. There were no stakes about the fight, no build-up to it, the world had no clue who Superman was before the aliens arrived and demanded custody. Why would anyone care about a single random guy they've never heard of before?
My feeling is that you need storytellers, and that was something DC didn't really have under Snyder. It isn't that he had different ideas than were expected, I mean he did have different ideas, but what ailed the early DCEU was that Snyder couldn't compellingly convey those ideas. Gunn is a great storyteller who uses comedy as a conduit to make you feel a full range of emotions. Shazam, still a benchmark for DC, worked because it aimed to tell a concise story where all the ideas formed a harmony.
100%. Shazam is honestly the best solo superhero movie since Iron Man 1, and its precisely because it is extremely confident and focused about the story it's trying to tell.
It's more than that, though. Zack Snyder and David Ayer both demonstrated fundamental misunderstandings of the source material. It's extremely difficult, if not generally impossible to convey ideas that are totally antithetical to what makes those characters and teams who and what they are in any compelling way. Zack Snyder doesn't know what really makes Superman super, why the Justice League should be a team, and David Ayer had no idea what the purpose of Task Force X actually was.
@@jasontodd9 I think deconstructions are perfectly fine if you have a storyteller at the helm because you can still arrive at the right destination. Superman can be human, dark, vacillating, and still end up in a compelling story where you are more on his side than off of it. The majority of the serious Batman films have been a deconstruction of the title character, but Burton, Reeves, and Nolan succeed where Snyder fails because their movies are more concise, consistent, and character driven.
it also remembers that Superheroes are for Kids and there is no shame in that
@@X2Magneto Right, except in order to 'deconstruct' anything more precisely than demolishing it with a sledgehammer, you need to understand how the character is constructed and what makes them who they are. You can't just make a character completely betray all the core values of that character and then claim "its a DeCoNsTrUcTiOn, bro!"
You can't really have a Superman that's dark or vacillating, because that's not Superman. That's your edgy OC in Superman cosplay.
Empathy is what super heroes are all about though. They exist to show us qualities we already have. Stan Lee has said numerous times that all his supes were based on his own weaknesses. Even when they are as godlike as Supes, they NEED to be human.
another piece of dc media thats come out recently that hits all the points you mentioned is the harley quinn animated show. can't praise it enough
gunn does what others failed to do in the DCEU .making the characters actual characters that audience can love and relate to .literally the main guy in DCEU superman doesnt even have a character or any personalities at all .hes just a boring badass prop with the look and peacemaker is the most interesting character in the DCEU is a fact .very well done video man 🔥
I felt that the DCEU plan was to start as grim and dark and slowly rise into more cheerful and uplifting as the influence of heroes came into the world.
Which is kind of the opposite of the MCU which has become weirdly grim in tone.
Not according to everything we know about Snyder's plans for the later Justice League films.
Ironically trying to be different from the MCU makes the DECU look like it's trying to rip it off. MCU built up to its first crossover movie, DCEU wanted to start with it right away. MCI is lighthearted and fun, DCEU is… all the things you described. These make it seem like they wanted all the success MCU had without putting in the work and without entertaining the audience. If the DCEU was more fun and put in the work introducing characters before crossovers, it might be more siilar to MCU, but it would also feel like they respect the audience.
Funnily, DC could have still been dark and dramatic while also being entertaining, they just never quite figured out their vision and then got too reactionary to stick to their tone.
I think about that rollerskate chase/fight scene from _Birds of Prey_ more than any other movie action scene from the last ten years. It sticks out because of its practical effects and (somewhat) realistic physics, making it more exciting to watch than any of the CGI alien/robot slugfests in other superhero movies.
Couldn't agree more.
Great point.
Often when I am watching these at home, I tend to start cleaning up, get a drink or start reading random stuff like grocery lists. Kinda going 'my headphones will let me know when to look up'. Which is why I was borrd senseless with the last 2 Avengers movies.
For birds of prey it was almost directly opposite. Hey, look: a comic book movie where dialogue is written and performed to make you follow and understand everything through non verbal sounds and sound design! And one of the rare ones where action scenes tell a story! Something most blockbusters have really lost sight of. John Wick may have gone off the rails in the third one, but it still kept your attention on the action, cuz it knew: either make it interesting by telling a story or by being visually entertaining, but always keep it relatable. Otherwise I might as well be watching a screensaver.
The weirdness of DC comics has always been my favorite part of them. How they update Greek mythology in every story, and how completely absurd some sorry lines are. DC has always been more existential than Marvel (although Marvel has the bright colors and all); which is why I’ve always been a DC fan over Marvel comics.
I'm sorry Steve, I hate to veer off into the direction of your honorable mention, because I though Peacemaker was one of the cleverist shows streaming. And that's not to say the MCU's streaming series having just stole my heart and soul. But I cannot understand why so many people seem to be sleeping on Doom Patrol. I remember when Grant Morrison came aboard with "Crawling from the Wreckage" and you knew right away this wasn't going to be the old Doom Patrol anymore. My best friend and comic collecting partner stopped reading it saying "It's just too weird." From the super powered sleepwalker (a woman who can take on Superman when she's asleep) to Crazy Jane (OMG, Diane Guerrero is just one of those Pop Culture revelations) to Danny the Street (or the Brick, or the Ambulance, or the party bus - which all happen in Morrison's run of this comic) to absolute standout Brendon Frasier as Cliff Steel. I've imagined comic books coming to movies before but with Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol I was all like "There no way they could tell these stories in a movie or TV series. I mean, there was a point where the Chief lead them as just a head. No way." And here we are. Every season leaves you wanting more. And since they finally started embracing the full nature of Rita Farr's powers. . .like I said, I cannot believe how many people sleep on this show.
No apologies necessary! I'm definitely doing a video just about the Doom Patrol show at some point. I love it.
Peace Maker arguably is the best DC live action product I've seen for years. Then The Batman comes out which is also a great film and filled the "Noir realism" void. DC is in a good jump start point now. Hopefully the can catch it.
James Gunn making the DCEU really shine in this way proves that when you can make the audience connect with a character, it’s so easy to fall in love with the world of the DCEU. It’s not a surprise that the best of the DCEU films are the ones that put CHARACTER before cool action and visuals. Shazam and Wonder Woman were always at the top of my DCEU list for the longest time because they understood that to make the story work, we had to care about the main characters and explore them.
Long time viewer (I came for the Star Trek content) first time commenter. I had to break my silence to thank you for the rush of nostalgic glee the Mort of the Month reference gave me.
So despite hating “Man of steel” and deeply, deeply disliking “Batman v Superman” I genuinely love the Snyder Cut. It’s a deeply flawed movie but it’s the first film where Snyder actually spoke to me and I really do think that it deserves to be defended.
The above said, Snyder’s first two films really are not good and you have admirably articulated why as well as articulating just why James Gunn’s film and the new TV series are so good.
I very much enjoyed this review.
I agree with your thoughts on Snyder. But with James Gunn, sometimes I feel he's a little too comedic. Snyder and Gunn are literally opposites with their tones. Most of the time I prefer Gunn's versions, but sometimes it's a little too much for me too.
Snyder doesn’t write characters as people. A huge flaw.
I don't like it
Strange...I liked Man of Steel & didn't like anything thereafter till The Suicide Squad
@@Saje3D
Snyder comes across as an admirable person who simply cannot make an entertaining movie, unlike the execrable Whedon.
It's sad.
I like what you say about MoS. In Superman II, Zod is specially seeking out Kal El. They spend plenty time establishing animosity between the two.
(I love your takes, and views on all this! This comment is directed at the toxic fandom you’ve mentioned. Thanks for being awesome!)
Toxic DC fans exhibit so many traits that we see directly in society and politics today (I’ll elaborate on the political aspect shortly). They champion things like the Snyderverse, while actively ignoring all of the problems with the films.
They hold these films up on a pedestal because they see them as “Anti-marvel” or “anti-woke” 🙄 (which is a ridiculous/nothing sentiment). They idolize these kinds of figures that PRESENT themselves as “kicking ass and taking names”, or “telling it like it is”….When what they really idolize is “He does what he wants and has no decorum or consideration for anyone else!”.
They look up to boorish bullies who say and do TERRIBLE (sometimes fascist or racist) things, and they see that kind of attitude as admirable. Zack Snyder is a competent director, who can do great work when he plays to his strengths. But with his overindulgence and indifference to DC characterization….he should not handle DC heroes AT ALL.
He is self indulgent to the extreme, and is more concerned with making a big badass mess, than he is with representing these characters in any accurate fashion.
I’m a fan of MARVEL first and foremost, BUT Im also a fan of DC! I want both franchises to do great things, and make great movies! I’m not willing to accept Snyder’s grimdark trash, just because its what most of what we’ve been given.
These toxic Fans im speaking of, can’t even admit that marvel does excellent work, and makes GREAT FILMS because like politicians have become, they refuse to any compromise. They see “the other side” as the enemy, and will pretend a marvel movie sucks, because it doesn’t support their Snyder love.
I think it’s partially do to they way politicians operate these days. It’s because fuckers like trump have poisoned their minds with batshit rhetoric. They see a gay couple on screen and become furious because “THEYRE SHOVING IT DOWN MY THROAT!”. As if people existing was ever an affront to enjoying a comic book film.
They can’t stand humor! They hate hope funny and genuinely entertaining some of the marvel stuff is because…..well…..I dunno I guess because it’s not how Snyder does it???? To them it’s wrong if it’s too bright and colorful, or too jovial, or too KIND to all people/genders/races. It’s this kind of hateful fandom that just ruins it for all of us.
James Gunn is the first glimmer of hope, in my opinion, of our collective fandoms being able to unite, and maybe getting EQUALLY GREAT and well thought out stories featuring our favorite heroes! I want a new definitive SUPERMAN movie. I don’t want to settle for “Man of Steel” just because it’s dark and edgy.
I don’t want to act brainwashed and blinded to the fact that Snyder and others have given us INFERIOR PRODUCTS. We the fans, deserve better work! For DC, People like James Gunn, and movies like Shazam, have been great examples of filmmakers actually breaking away, and having a chance to do better…
I just hope this fandom can stop with the overt hatred of anything just because it’s bright, or funny, or has anti racist/sexist messaging. These fans…actually get MAD when a DC character says “Racism is bad, and being a misogynistic asshole is bad too”. WTF DC FANS? (Saw a lot of this with Peacemaker, which was AMAZING!!!)
And before anyone says, “Well whedon did both so you’re wrong!🤬”….I’ll say, There’s examples of SHITHEADS being shitty on both DC and Marvel sides. I’d never deny that!
But I will never deny that at least whedon has a million examples of CARING about filmmaking, and also BEING GOOD AT IT. I don’t like or worship the guy, but at least his movies don’t seem to treat his audience like morons and spoon feed them trash, with a slowmo veneer! Yeah, His version of justice league sucked, but it was always gonna suck, because Snyder’s JL ALREADY SUCKED, and the Snyder CUT still sucked.
Don’t get mad DC fanboys. Don’t feel insulted. What I’m saying isn’t to hurt your feelings, or insult you. I Just want you to understand that YOU deserve BETTER DC movies than Snyder has offered. You deserve more like GUNN. It’s not US Versus YOU. It’s kinda just US wishing we could all have the best from both worlds!
I’m guessing Steve might agree, that we can all be happy while getting Great DC AND Marvel movies, and be less toxic while doing it.
Well said, Steve. Thanks for the shout out to Doom Patrol and the CW Arrow-verse shows. "Legends of Tomorrow" is right up there in the appropriately weird DC end of the comic spectrum. Keep it up!
Legends is incredibly goofy, but undeniably entertaining.
Though it's been in decline since season 4.
I had been wanting to said this for years. You probably don't know it Steve, but you are great for practicing english. There are a lot of people who struggle with understand english when someone spoke it. We have no problem to read it, but is harder to understand it when is spoken. But you have a very clearspeech. Wich is great. I can listen to it with out subtittles while I'm doing something else and practice my english.
I absolutely loved Shazam; it has the best origin for the extended Marvel family.
8 months later, James Gunn is now IN CHARGE of the DCEU! :D
Oh wow, I was NOT prepared for a Mort of the Month reference!
The problem with SNYDER’s DCEU is that it has its roots in 90’s DC, which was also oppressively dark and self-important...and is the reason why so many modern comics are not to my liking...
Also I feel like the DCEU movies give their directors more creative freedom while the MCU films follow a strict adherence to their status quo
They really fucked up with Darkseid. He was literally the template for Thanos. And clearly, the MCU did much better with the character.
You can call it a microcosm of how DCEU has gotten things wrong. Darkseid is the original--and IMO a better character than Thanos--with clear motivations, yet he just comes off as generic space bully. Likewise, since DC and it's tentpole heroes have been around longer than Marvel, and were created by more writers and publishers with different backgrounds than silver age Marvel, these should be richer characters, with distinct personalities. And yet the big screen versions just were not.
All I saw was a glowering lamp post.
This video predicted history
IKR 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
That moment where Superman is standing in the Capitol and looking mildly bothered by all the death surrounding him has always pissed me off. It's the complete antithesis of who that character is. Sure, maybe the chair was lined with lead but you can't tell me he wouldn't have heard that bomb get detonated and had enough time to fly over and take it out of the building even if he did so as the bomb was exploding he should've had plenty of time. In the same movie he comes to help Lois multiple times after she's pushed off a building or taken hostage without her saying a word. So he's attuned to even the smallest sounds being made anywhere in the world and he can get there in seconds. Standing right next to the bomb he should've been able to do something. Instead he just stands there then flies off without a word. What happened to the Superman who rolls up to an accident scene and asks how he can help? I hate the Snyderverse for what he did to this character especially. Who the hell thought this guy should make a Superman movie? He'd just made the opposite of this in Watchmen. There were plenty of better options out there. Now it's done. They were in such a hurry they had no choice but to keep him on board because given the time constraints they'd laid out for themselves it was impossible to course correct between movies. They were so desperate to catch Marvel and probably didn't want to look like they'd made a huge mistake putting a guy known for being horribly bleak in charge we have the definitive Justice League. Instead of finding the right person and spending a few extra months or years in pre-production we're stuck with this as the Justice League as well as the only version of what should've been a classic match up between Superman and Batman. You can't just make it again. It's not like starting over and over on Batman or Spider-Man. This is the only one we're going to get of that story and it makes me so pissed which I don't like feeling.
In the Snyderverse Superman is a pure Randian who only saves the world because if he didn't, Lois Lane the only thing he loves would die.
Zach Synder love affair with Ayn Rand just doesn't work for the DCEU
The only problem I have with Shazam is the mess it made of Sivvana. The whole basis of the character in his EVERY appearance is that he's a scientist who's encountered empirical proof that magic is real and that this has driven him so batshit insane he's dedicated his entire life to killing the Shazams and their rogues gallery just to make the universe rational again. That is one of the most hillarious villain origins ever concieved and fits perfectly with the tone of the film. Why they had to 180 him into another rejected Shazam Champion is beyond me. Especially when a more comic alligned Sivvana would come across as a blatant fuck you to the Snyder view of comicbook filmaking... I've just answered my own question haven't I...
My biggest issue with Shazam, and this also stands for a lot of the more recent DC Animated movies is they make Shazam act _way_ more immature than they make Billy Batson act, and it's just weird. In the movie he's this mopey, too cool teenager but as Shazam he's like an 8 year old. It's a bit weird, but overall there was enough good in the movie to make it a fun watch. But yes, the direction they went with Sivvana was a weird choice.
I really miss the classic mad scientist villain in comics.
Feels wonderful to see someone else call out how amazing Birds of Prey was and see how alike it is to The Suicide Squad.
Thank you. Finally I found someone who doesnt overly praise the Snyder cut and gives some praise to the (imo) unjustly maligned bird of preys.
Time to stop disrepecting Joel Schumacher's Batman movies, then, eh? Personally, I'll take them over the glum and slow Dark Knight Trilogy because they're bright, colorful and quite frankly... insane.
"Holey rusty metal, Batman!"
'What?'
"The surface: it's metal, rusty and full of holes. Be careful."
Classic.
No you need to be jailed for that take
@@quenteriusscott7804 ...and you are unpleasant, ignorant, rude and wrong.
Away, sonny. Have a nice ickle juicebox and try being edgy elsewhere.
Warner Bros should oust Zach Synder as its executive producer for all its DCEU films and install James Gunn as their Kevin Feige
I feel like such a killjoy, but… like, I just don’t understand the humor in The Suicide Squad. Or, rather, I understand it intellectually, but the tension between the jokey tone and the ‘structure’ of the gags, and how horribly, brutally violent they are, makes the film feel queasy and cynical to me. I don’t mind bloody violence, but I don’t understand how to make it legible as comedy - like, how can you watch a guy get stabbed multiple times in the chest and stomach and not feel a bit sickened? I’m not trying to be a scold, here; I just genuinely don’t get it.
Have you heard of Tromeo & Juliet?
You know, maybe that's why the only Superhero Movie Snyder did well was Watchmen - because the whole plot is about how Doctor Manhattan's fading empathy crippled him, and Ozymandias feelings of alienation and superiority lead to to treat people as a problem to solve rather than people.
While Doctor Manhattan definitely echos Superman in a way, he's very much a negative mirror, an anti-Superman (without actually being a villain), while Ozymandias is an Anti-Batman (I'm not going to start the whole Ozymandias debate again, I'm 100% sure everyone in this thread already knows it and has already taken a stand). Snyder's view and version of superheroes works there, because his natural approach to the medium echos the inherent and internal character flaws of these character. Alienation, feelings of superiority, and 'the weight of responsibility' wielded as a cudgel rather than burden.
But you can't write Superman like you would write Manhattan. They're very very different characters. Though, to be frank, if Manhattan was 'fighting' to save a city, he still would have done a better job than Snyder's Superman did. He might not care about people in a personal sense, but he does care about a kind of cold-blooded efficacy of action. Superman should never be less concerned about saving people than Manhattan.
I absolutely agree. Though I think darker versions of previously happy things can work, in fact I often like that idea, it seems that people often miss why that works. Making something darker just to get your edgy rocks off isn't the point. But compelling the audience to think by putting our happy character into a drak place can be a quick way of establishing a ready built plot because from the beginning we will hope for a return to brightness that we wouldn't have if we just met this person. But it is a tight balance to walk, and one which should be used sparingly lest it lose its effect even when done correctly.
Which hilariously enough DC did succeed in with the series Doom Patrol
So hyped he’s the lead of DCEU now. Hope he scraps the junk they made before
I appreciate the shout-out given to Doom Patrol, and would love for you to do a video about that show.
There will definitely be a Doom Patrol video at some point.
Surprised Aquaman wasn't mentioned loved that and Shazam!
You really get me. I've been saying these exact same things about the DCEU, and specifically the Snyderverse. Add in that they rush through about three or four movies where they could have developed Superman and jump right to a shitty mash-up of Dark Knight Returns and Death of Superman, and then force the Justice League on us without the organic flow if storytelling that allowed Marvel to build up to The Avengers. Gunn has, in one movie and a single season of a television show, made a better universe than anyone else did up until that point. I know I seem to be in the minority here, but one huge reason is that he didn't have Goyer co-writing his work. While Goyer is knowledgeable about comic lore, but he haphazardly picks bits and pieces of various storylines and story arcs and blends them into narratives that aren't entirely cohesive or entertaining. And what other director could take Polka-Dot Man, a joke character from the Silver Age, and make me actually feel sad when he dies? Now, having said all that, I need to go back in hiding before the Snyder cult from Tumblr find out I'm talking smack about their golden boy again.
Fantastic review Steve, and thanks for pointing out the show! I don't think I would have looked for it otherwise!
My problem with MoS is that Zack Snyder does not understand why people love Superman. He seemed to think he understood Batman and basically said "Same universe, fuck it." Batman called Superman the Boyscout in the comics for a reason, but either Syner didn't know or didn't care.
I think it's worth noting that Warner's tried to birth a connected DC movie-verse from "Green Lantern" as their "Iron Man," (with the lighter Marvel-style and "talented man-boy" protagonist template) but Nolan and his Batman trilogy was extremely successful ... and dark. So, the DCEU became more dark and maybe opened the door for Snyder's interpretation.(these are just dots in my head, I purport to have no factual knowledge)
So glad you called out Doom Patrol. What a great show!
Peacemaker. What a show.
I really should have guessed that Dee Bradley Baker was the voice of Eagly.
I disagree about what you say about man of steel, general was a threat to huminity more dangerous than white dragon , no prison cells would have been able to hold.
They both just fought across metropolis and space, superman couldn't stop him.
This video aged like fine wine
Hey everybody! It's Relentlessly Dunking On Zac Snyder Man!
#realworldhero
When Characters like Peacemaker, Polkadot Man or Ratcatcher 2 become better Characters than Superman, Batman or The Flash...then you know something is wrong here
15:14 that gave me chills and YES!
Right on the target - as usual. I agree with you completely.
Which brings me to my dream... James Gunn getting a take on Justice League... but going for the Justice League International phase sourcing from Keith Giffen and J. M. DeMatteis. That, rebooting Justice League, would be a dream
I'd pay to see that movie!
Thank you for the spoilers warning. I had to stop your video there. I am not quite done Peacemaker and I am really enjoying it!
Just finished watching Peacemaker, oh so good & that is the best goddamn opening credits
Now they just need to take Pattinson's Batman and team him up with Swamp Thing, Zatana, Deadman, and Constantine, and make that the mainline DCEU. Appropriately dark, but still with the silliness of Deadman and Zatana and Constantine's being formerly in a relationship.
It's so fascinating to watch one the most "MCU" directors be the one to set up a template that can actually rival the MCU, like it's depends on how Moon Knight turns but I can't see Disney giving us anything like the Netflix stuff much less, something like this.
I"m still in the camp that somewhat defends Man of Steel, I still think you could've done and build something from the premise of "Neo con" Superman but they completely blew it by rushing and at this point makes no sense trying to unscramble that egg. Just do Flashpoint or whatever and reset the whole thing.
Also I just remembered with all the Charlton comic references that he's what the Comedian from Watchmen is based on.
So That "Peacemaker What a joke" line has an extra layer of meaning to it.
From an otherwise sterling review you forgot James Wan's AQUAMAN had an octopus drummer and it worked! Also weird variations of Atlanteans who were varying combinations of humanoids and aquatic life.
I found Aquaman to be a big improvement over the Snyder-directed stuff, and it has some fun elements like the ones you mentioned, but overall I didn't think it was that great, which is why I didn't mention it specifically.
You've done a better job of making me want to watch the suicide squad and peacemaker than ANY of their marketing lmao
I havent watched peacemaker, Dont think I will. : ( I have seen Suicide Squad. However I share your opinion. As this is a better way to portray these characters. But my stomach can't handle the gory nature of these shows, I barely ended S.Squad.
Belive me I'd love to enjoy this but I flinch during the killings. Super empathy is my super... weakness? XD
Oh. Yeah. If you don't like the gore Peacemaker may not be your thing.
Gunn should guide the whole DCEU
Steve Shives What are your thoughts on the upcoming DCU skate, from James Gunn's Superman and Andy Muschietti's The Brave and the Bold to Lanterns and Booster Gold?
I know it's not part of the DCEU but Harley Quinn's animated series is also right up there with these latest DCEU shows and movies.
As soon as you said "Feature not a bug" I did a double take since I just watched Archive 81.
One point, WB got rid of Donner and instead went for Richard Lester who butchered 51% of Superman 2, so clearly they've had a tendency to shoot themselves in the foot for a very long time ;)
I cannot agree more.
Super Hero movies should be foremost Super Hero movies.
It's totally ok to have a gloomy and dark Batman movie, it fits the theme, but Man of Steel completely misses the point of Superman being an uplifting and just figure, one who would put the good of other people above his in an instant and without a doubt, a person who, seeing Zodd gearing up for battle, would had immediately charged him and thrown him into a deserted land to fight instead of leveling a city.
Oh look, here I am again lamenting about Superman destroying a city...
See why we need fun Super Hero movies, DEAR SOCIETY?
Intelligence. Coherence. Wit. Humor. Style. - Gunn
Sullen sour slo motion violence. - Snyder
A strange opposing parallel between peacemaker and superman is while peacemaker kills freely he ends his alien invasion story by sharing a beer (and some nectar) with the main alien bad guy, while superman can find no better way out of his situation than to kill his main alien bad guy.
Ok wait a minute - Have you seen the batman trailers? I mean they look like they continue to double down on the very dark view of batman. The reason batman is so dark is that they set superman as imperfect through the death of his father. Superman is suppose to be well adjusted kid. This is a really important part of his back story that they changed casually. Batman stands next to super man - maniac compared to well adjusted - rich to poor. Intense to relaxed.
I think the Brain Trust as you call them have learned nothing because they are narcissists and unable to recognize empathy or feel anything. They don't understand the internal world that the super heroes go through because they only see the external impacts of those stories. Thanks for the thoughts - could stuff.
Except the batman movie worked and was amazing
because james gunn is the real talent behind of even snyder's carrier
Holy crap it's Steve friggin SHIVES!🤩
Well this video is particularly relevant now that Gunn is co head of DC lol
Funny thing is James Gunn wrote the first draft of the Dawn of the Dead remake, Zack Synder's first movie
DC should just give Gunn the DCEU, and let him do the all of the movies from now on or be the executive producer on them all.