Thank-you so much for everyone that tuned in to my first video, this has completely blown my expectations away, i would have been suprised to get like 1000 views and were almost at 50k. I was starting to lose motivation, feeling like everything Ive worked on in the last few years had produced little to no results, but seeing how passionate people are for my first db video has reignited my own passion, hope everyone tunes in for my next one, and thanks again!
What people miss is that Frieza Arc was straight parodying power-level concept. Detector was measuring some arbitrary concept of energy and ignoring stuff like training and strategy. Though yes, strategy also has its limits. Same is true for the power output. Goku was consonantly capable to increase his power level with training and in the end whole power-level concept didn't matter anything.
I feel like you just totally forgot the most important thing about earths fighters. At rest, they're exponentially weaker than when fighting. That is master yoshi's way. When he fights for real, his power level spikes to over 10x his resting number. also did you really not read about what popo is? He was able too tank hits from DBZ bad guys and he's never raised his power level.
@@lordkalem many people have commented this, its not normal to suppress your power, and they only start doing it after training with kami, roshi didn't participate in that training. popo is weaker than kami in the manga, your thinking of anime filler
It's stupid, because 150 farmers doesn't mean a 30x times stronger and no one of them knows Ki manipulation and kamehameha. So powerlevels are easily can be linear
Unfortunately power levels can't really be multipliers either unless you think Krillin was close to Frieza's power level on Namek.... Or that Saiyan tails (even when explicitly trained to remove the weakness of being grabbed) are so weak Great Ape vegeta's tail loses to Yajirobe's sword with an already massive power difference. And if you're about to say Destructo Disc is just that strong, I'll point out it didn't work on Cell's neck.
Power levels are absolutely not linear in DBZ, where differences of 50% or lower regularly result in fights so uneven that one party can't even harm the other, or in some cases a whole team of fighters struggle against one guy. Cell saga is full of this. If we assume linear scaling, and that the numbers people are bootstrapping for various characters are anywhere close to where they should be, the Z fighters should have been able to basically just jump on Perfect Cell at any time and just overpower him. But that's clearly not the case. Power gaps in DBZ almost seem to follow an exponential curve to the point where a 200% advantage in power in enough to completely and effortlessly humiliate an opponent, which really shouldn't be the case if the scaling is linear.
Yeah, people really miss that the entire point of Power Levels was Toriyama actively criticizing people who would try to quantify the strength of the characters. All that mattered to the storytelling, as far as Toriyama was concerned, was a general hierarchy of which character was stronger than which other characters at any point in time. Their actual "feats" would just fluctuate based on the dramatic demands of the scene and whatever Toriyama thought was fun at that precise moment.
It more that Ox king can't lower his power to the same skills as all of the other characters. My guess is thst Ox is always at 900 where other can lower and raise their power level. With is based on the fact that Goku and Piccolo could somewhat fight raditz who what 3 times their individual power levels and the fact that Goku was almost able to match Raditz with Kamahamaha and Piccolo actually surpassed him with the Special beam canon. But Goku and Piccolo PLs were only 300-400 ish at the time.
It took Goku 7 years training with Kami for him to barely defeat Piccolo Jr. at the end of Dragon Ball. It took the earthlings 1 year of training with Kami for them to catch up to Raditz, who had previously soloed both Goku and Piccolor Jr. at the same time.
@@AgentZoro I don't remember how long it was between the Piccolo Jr. timeskip. I thought it was 7, due to how much Goku grew in that time, and the fact he ends up having a kid.
@@NyrufaNo bro, Goku was 15 when he fought King piccolo, then there was a 3 year time skip when he had his fight with piccolo Jr, and then there was a 6 year time skip when Goku was 24 and his son Gohan was introduced at 4 years old previous to fighting raditz
7 Years for Buu, 3 Years for Androids, 1 Year for Mecha Frieza, 1 Year between Raditz & Frieza, 5 Years between DB End & Start of Z, 3 Years between King Piccolo & 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi. Goku was 16 at the 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi & 11 during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.
To me the problem from the start is that scouter power levels are based on energy/ki emission. Just like the Androids technically register at 0, it is possible that every human with no ki control capabilities naturally simply registers at 5. Farmer with the shotgun? 5. Bulma? 5. Mr. Satan? 5. Maybe those powers for Krilin and Muten were just the energy emission at rest and Muten was actually a 600 while Krilin was actually a 500 when at full power, with Muten being lower only when at rest. And I know the question is what are these characters' actual levels beside the limitations of the scouter, but that's the thing: if you're using the scouter as a starting point every read needs to be contextualized. What even is power level?? We treat these power levels and "transformation multipliers" as if they're just some RPG stats, and of course we do because it's fiction and that's what's fun about this whole thing, it's a fun brain teaser, but if it was real life you know it would be more complex, you don't just train for a while and come back 5x stronger, and even if you did does power level simply is your brute strength or does it account for agility? Some may say it obviously doesn't since it's just raw power, others may say it obviously does since it's your life energy and that generates strentgh as well as agility, focus, etc. Those questions don't have a definitive answer because it's unexplained in the manga! Or rather, from what we gather the scouter simply indicates your ki level and there's that. We treat it as a sort of all-encompassing cheat number but the whole point of it in the story is that it is NOT all-encompassing and it can even be tricked. If any of us were to come up with a power level system from scratch, I don't think anybody would be as superficial as to use a single number, we would obviously evaluate a strength number, a speed number and so forth (more like superhero stats in official Marvel handboooks). Then if you really want you can do a weighted average or something and give an overall score but that only gives you a tier for the character, not a precise measurement of capabilities. And heck if you want power level to be that let it be that, but still that would need a precise evaluation, it feels like with DB levels people just go "character 1 beat character 2 so he gets a hugher number..." That is not even power level, that is just a league ranking! Or a judge score! Like "Oh he's pretty good, he gets a 7/10, but not as good as tihs other guy, who gets 7.5/10" Still, very enjoyable video overall!
I've always wondered how exactly scouters calculate power levels ever since it was revealed that the scouters will register someone removing their weighted training clothes and increase their power level accordingly. What is the mechanism behind that? Is the scouter detecting that they can move faster without the weights? Is it estimating power levels according to some complex mathematical formula that takes into account not just ki energy and muscle strength but also factors as subtle as restrictive clothing? Could the scouter take into account other subtle factors, like if you were sleepy and drank some caffeine and became more alert would that increase your power level?
@@AlteredNova04 I just figured they used some of their ki to help them with the weighted clothing. The clothing acts as physical, mental, and energy training for them. Where it gets screwy with me is when they suppress their energy and their power levels raising beyond their base when preparing a ki blast as seen in the Raditz fight, and he was surprised by that. If that's the case then Vegeta's gallet gun to Goku during their fight should've had his power level raised as well, which it might've actually since Goku had to go Kaioken x4 to beat him in that beam struggle.
its starting to sink in how insane blowing up the moon actually is. we dont question it as much because it's so far away when they do it, but imagine master roshi literally blowing up an entire CONTINENT to dust, which the moon is comparable to, if not a degree more massive since its a continent length across and also deep.
yep thats why we see freeza flick his finger and obliterate a large planet, and people dont think about how he didnt just destroy it, he obliterated it, theres a big difference between the 2
Great video! I think its clear "power level" just measures ki aura. That is why the readings fluctuate when an Earth martial artist uses a special attack.
Time and time again it's proven that power levels are not linear at least until the saiyan saga, so Goku having 10 at the beggining of DB is fine. It's funny how you just take into account the car but ignore all the other strenght and speed statements and showings.
can you give some examples? db has basically no official power levels till the sayian saga, so dont you think its weird to say its non linear in the non power levels era? its alot easier to just ignore the 10
@yurazah Goku takes a whole day to climb Korin's tower at first but he later climbs up and down in just 3 hours. Goku said that his power doesn't compare to Old King Piccolo's, and Old King Piccolo replies by saying that he wasn't even using half of his strenght. According to Piano, Old Demon King Piccolo is "nothing" compared to Young King Piccolo. Piccolo Jr says he has gotten "many times" stronger than Young King Piccolo. And I'm ignoring the fact that Roshi and Piccolo destroyed the freaking moon.
@@dimitri4888 I see, its hard to keep everything 100% consistent even within your own story (like goku struggling to lift 40 tons) I think anything like this would probably have minor issues, a big underlying idea behind the video is me trying to justify old db having linear powers to be consistent with their depiction in z and I think it works pretty well to be interpreted in this way, but your right that you could argue thoes things and easily blow things out of proportion saying stuff like they got 2x stronger over and over, thats definitely a viable interpretation aswell.
3:30 It wasn’t Super it was Toriyama. DB Minus is the bonus chapter at the end of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. Drawn and written by Toriyama. While the special was canon to the manga originally (and I prefer it by a mile) it’s no longer canon. In minus, we actually don’t see Bardock’s confrontation with Freeza (unlike DBS Broly) so you’re supposed to assume he changed outfits before that occurs.
yeah, I did know that, just trying to justify why I want to keep considering the special cannon. hey thanks for checking out my video your a big inspiration to me!
BTW would you just consider minus cannon? (Cause he could have swapped the outfit?) And not the brolly scene? Cause we see his rebellion in brolly and he's wearing his super armor, so technically inconsistent with the manga pannel)
wait, why specifically is the original Bardock Special not canon? did Toriyama say it isn't? or did something in DBM contradict it? you say we don't see his confrontation with Freeza (based for spelling it that way) in DBM... doesn't that leave room? room for the version of events depicted in the special?
@@strider_hiryu850Shueshia and Bird studios which was being ran and was owned by Toriyama threw a canon tour in 2018. It’s the first time they used the word also. They stated the manga, Jacos manga, DBM, FnF and the Broly movie is the one and only canon up until that point and FnF and Broly only because they didn’t have full manga adaptations. Nothing anime wise, even the DBS anime is canon. The TV specials and movies aren’t either. Bardock appeared in the Z manga as he did in the TV special and Toriyama just retconned it, like he did with Goku’s age arriving on earth.
Great video, as someone who's also dabbled into this stuff I can appreciate the effort that's put into this! I'm going to check out the Sparking Zero BP video after this and I hope you continue making content like this. I want to say, though, over the years I've NEVER seen anyone actually take the Movie 3 Pamphlet numbers seriously so please let me know who you've seen using them because I want to see what kind of person would do that. About the Kid Goku being just a 10 thing; I know the out-of-universe explanation is that the staff just didn't think about it that much but in-universe I've always thought of the Scouter numbers to follow a kind of logarithmic function where the gap between, say, 5 and 10 would be exponential but the gap between 50,000 and 100,000 would be linear. It makes sense for Frieza's army where even the weaker soldiers like Raditz have a battle power of 1,500 and can nuke entire continents in a single attack so instead of their energy level being 1.5 x 10^29 Joules it's just 1,500 with no unit. Then backtracking from that number, if it were linear, both someone like a regular human and a trained martial artist like Kid Goku would have a battle power of almost 0. So it could make sense why the numbers are 5 and 10 instead for readability's sake, both in-universe and out-of-universe. You could even argue that the power levels get more linear at the end so that when Frieza pulls out his "My power level is 530,000" it appears that much more intimidating. Like the soldiers think that two guys with a PL of 5 have no chance against a guy with a PL of 10 and so Frieza with his massive 530k numba is absolutely unsurpassable but they'd be wrong because they CAN surpass him just by ranging a few parks with Android 17. The power levels getting linear at the end also explains why Piccolo can jump from 3,500 in the Saiyan Arc to over 250,000 in the Namek arc in just a few days; it just appears like a big jump according to the power level system when in reality it's more or less his regular rate of growth.
ya I agree that the non linear interpretation works and is obviously the widely accepted interpretation, I thought it would be interesting to push back against that a bit here. also the specific example of movie 3 pamphlet, alot of bigger db creators who dont look that deep into power levels have used it, like masako x has used the ox king 900 level before, tho keep in mind he cares very little for power scaling and his videos prioritize narrative even if it dosent make sense power wise (also the sz video is kinda low effort, I didnt expect this one to do so well, I'll have to make more like this in the future.)
Krillin's Power Level on his first appearance might be higher than his seniors', but the years of bullying beforehand just had a psychological effect on him
Yes, Roshi could hang with Tien who had a PL of 180 (going by memory, I think it was around 180) by going semi-buff. You'd think his fully muscular form would be even higher.
@@Procrastinaterkinda... But Tien was like supercocky, he wasn't fighting serious until he used Taio- Ken. Roshi definitely could give Tien a run for his money, but would loose in the end anyway. It's a pity he gave up that early and there was no rematch... It could be like Rocky vs Appolo
@@alexzero3736 Roshi always figured that he had been surpassed, if anything he undersold himself. Tien figured he had not begun to fight seriously yet, which is true, Roshi could still draw out a lot more power, and he did not use his lightning flash suprise attack, a move I do not see Tien having an answer to. Likewise, Tien did not use his four arm technique or kikoho against Roshi. Roshi forfited the fight as he saw potential in Tien and pitied his situation being under the thumb of crane hermit.
1. Power level disparities are logarithmic. Logs grow at a slower and slower rate. Exponentials grow and a faster and faster rate. This is why an edge is gained quickly in the low 100s, where a difference of maybe 40 makes for a pretty insurmountable foe, but when levels get into the trillions fights start to get closer unless there's a magnitude of difference. That is to say an extra zero, or possibly a few, are needed to secure the same ease. 2. The average low level saiyan is NOT at 1,500 as Raditz was considered a mid-class anywhere from 1,200 to 1,500. 3. I am very glad you made this video. TFS hacky jokes aside, powerlevels are always a very fun discussion.
Huh, i always imagined the lower powerlevels not being accurate due to just measurements tapering off at a certain point, like how humans are extremely weak by the galaxy's standard of like probably hundreds or thousands for powerlevels so the system used to calculate it becomes less accurate when measure the power levels below a certain threshold, making it more logarithmic isntead of linear
This is all discounting that the power levels of humans in dragon ball are variable. Roshi sitting at home being lazy isn't going to have the same power level as roshi actively fighting goku to his limit at the 20th budokai
That car Goku lifts is actually based on the R5 Turbo from the early 80’s. Weighed less than 1000 kg, maybe 1050 kg with Bulma and her belongings in it. Then again, they manage to reduce it to a capsule, physics told me more matter in a tiny volume increases the density and therefore weight, so that capsule must be at least as heavy if not heavier and she's carrying many of them, don't underestimate Bulma.
The farmer with a shotgun rank is using his shotgun in the calculation of his power level. Goku at the beginning of the series was implied to not be able to take a point-blank hit from a shotgun (I think during his invasion of the tower in the ice place). It makes sense the farmer has a 5 and he’s a 10
5:22 - Actually, Raditz was classified as a mid-class Saiyan hence why he was working alongside the young Elite Saiyan Prince Vegeta and adult mid-class veterans like Nappa, even though he was still a child as low class children are generally sent off world to invade weak planets as infiltration babies which was how Bardock and Gine were able to convince everyone that Kakarot was sent to Earth by the Saiyan Army when in reality Bardock stole an Attack Ball space pod and sent Kakarot to Earth cause he feared Frieza was planning to exterminate them (mind you if he was wrong he planned to retrieve Kakarot and Gine used Kakarot being sent to Earth as a cover story to contact Raditz via Scouter to inform him of Kakarot's whereabouts, which is why Raditz, Vegeta, & Nappa believed he was sent to invade Earth completely unaware it was in defiance of Frieza's return order and Kakarot's departure was organized by his parents to save their youngest son, knowing Raditz was safely offworld with the Saiyan Prince something Gine herself took pride in as most of Raditz's family were born low class (Gine due to her gentle personality & being poorly suited to planetary conquest which required Bardock to save her leading to their relationship and becoming a couple, with Gine retiring from Team Bardock to become a meat processing employee, which is basically the Saiyan equivalent to a butcher)! Raditz was considered weak compared to his comrades Vegeta and Nappa cause they were born into upper class families, with Vegeta being royalty and heir to the throne before Planet Vegeta was destroyed, while Nappa was a veteran mid-class Saiyan who was the strongest Saiyan next to the King Vegeta & Prince Vegeta as knowledge of Broly's elite power level was suppressed by King Vegeta!
One thing about Roshi though is he's one of the first humans to learn to control ki. So when Bulma measures him when he's just chilling at his house that 139 isn't necessarily what he would be in battle when he's focused
this is probably the most said thing in these comments, there is no direct evidence that roshi could conceal his power and only comes up after vegeta arives on earth, id assume you would have no reason to until after they knew about the scouters, both goku and piccolos numbers were lowered due to their weighted training clothing, but other than that the scouter picked up their full power, so people before z are not capable of reducing their power levels edit- kami trained goku in proper ki control, so roshi by comparison must have low ki control
@@ZeroNumerousthis reminds me of a what- if someone had said before where they asked if you could survive in a infinite space against 300 snapping turtles, and it was dragonball related cause they also said, goku could probably do it
@@ZeroNumerous Dont think a power level has anything to do with weight. I mean, if I'm level 4 and my girlfriend level 2 that doesn't mean I can easily lift up two of her at the same time (let alone easily lift up only one of her). It just means in a literal battle between us I'd be twice as strong as she is. Or to put it another way, Goku is stronger than Vegeta, so could Vegeta lift up Goku? Well, of course he could, because Goku's strength has nothing to do with this weight. Vegeta could lift up a thousand Gokus, probably even millions of them. He just couldn't beat any one of them.
The problem was never Power Levels. Having a power scale is fine. Giving zero fucks whatsoever about it and just filling in whatever number sounds cool at the time is NOT. And that's how Toriyama wrote power levels. I love the guy and his works, but he was the worst possible person to write a power scale, he enjoyed writing like the Buu saga had, laissez-faire, "random bullshit go" if you will. So sticking to an internally consistent scale was never in the cards for his work.
i wasn't expecting much but i felt the effort in this video, not just throwing number but providing reasoning behind everything. I think toriyama himself could learn a thing or 2 from this video lol
Being a ninja and thus presumably having martial arts training, Shu/Shao/Sho/Shoe whatever the localization calls the little fox guy this time around could easily be in the higher single digits and break nothing in terms of power scale. He'd be the muscle of the group.
@@Grape_Rush_Goat That ninja's definitely a better one at the whole ninja gig and I expect his ki levels to be higher. The little fox ninja might only be a 6 like a common foot soldier, but I would prefer to highball him at a 9.
feel honoured to become your 500th sub my guy. this was both informative, humorous, cheeky & undisputable in your reasoning. (other than Launch being the first ssj🧔🏼♀️🔥😸). keep churning out content that challenges the common consensus narrative in your quirky style- you'll be at 50k subs fast as goku ran the 💯💪🏼💨.
It would honestly be pretty funny to see Bulma actually have a PL of 12 and bringing her back to go against kid Goku and win. Considering many of the strength feats goku has at that point it would be pretty funny to see Bulma be able to overpower him despite it making no sense
Unpopular opinion but I actually prefer the og dragon ball (I read the manga btw) because it feels more magical than dbz. You can clearly tell the difference between the chinese inspiration for the og and the western sci-fi inspiration for dbz. Just my opinion tho
Yeah that's cool but DBZ is still better tho. OG Dragon Ball is 80% jokes, gags, and tournaments with basically zero stakes going on. If that fits your vibe better, cool, but it's just way less appealing for most people. Every fight in DBZ has stakes going on, everything is super dramatic, the dialogue goes hard and the one liners go absolutely insane. Everything is generally just bigger, flashier and more important. Dragon Ball feels like an appetizer for DBZ in that sense. The best villain in OG Dragon Ball is Demon King Piccolo, who ain't even on the mount Rushmore of Dragon Ball villains imo. And no Vegeta or Gohan basically means that DB just doesn't have any interesting characters to speak of at all outside of Piccolo Jr. No disrespect to Tien, he was a fine antagonist, but if he was more interesting Toriyama would have probably used him more than once after that. "But what about Goku" Goku as a kid is a good gag character but that's about it. Then there's all the weird shit OG Dragon Ball does constantly. Bro if your parents walked in on you watching OG Dragon Ball you'd change the channel. You don't want to have to explain any of that crap. What's with Japanese people and panties. Basically, I'm saying that OG DB probably does just vibe with you better, but there's many good reasons that opinion ain't popular.
@@GeorgePerakiszero stakes? You can't be serious. Who could predict that Roshi would step out from the ring? Furthermore with Tiens victory. And Kami disguised as some nerd on next tournament...
Agreed, I especially hate how the fighting in Z degenerates into endless pointless kicks and punches and the occasional energy beam attack, that is always the exact same.
Power levels in Dragon Ball are logarithmic, otherwise they would make no sense at all, especially after the Saian saga, but it does not change the fact that within 70 episodes, the power inflation in Dragon Ball reached such a rate that the creator of this scale had to permanently stop using it. otherwise we would have a Zimbabwe simulator instead of Dragon ball.
If they were logarithmic, Saiyan saga Vegeta would be multiversal, you tard. Don’t play with concepts you don’t understand as if you’re a big boy just because you watched “power scalers” count pixels on a screen and declare the power of an attack.
@@CreperbossAngel it’s exactly like what you see in school. Google logarithmic graph and that’s how power levels work, the stronger you are the more you need to do to make a difference in strength
@@CreperbossAngel this means that, if we are using base 10 logaritm, a person with power level of 2 is 10x stronger than one with 1. This fix the problem of the farmer with 130 shotguns that can destroy the moon, because to have a power level of 130 the farmer would need to multiply his strenght by 10^125 (this is 1 followed by 125 zeros.)
noone understands dragonball power levels cause theyre just stupid youre not gonna understand something that doesnt make sense, isnt made WITH any sense, and just honestly doesnt mean a whole lot the only thing you need to understand about power levels is that whenever theyre mentioned its just a quick and messy way to outline who is the more dangerous, and a quick excuse to breeze past some guys just no-selling attacks for no real reason, only to suddenly skip to getting their ass whooped like it was made of soft-serve with no inbetween
very interesting video, thanks! I think that what made OG DB so great was because there was no power scaling. If i remember correctly, Toriyama said in an interview that he regreted introducing the scouter thing in Z to measure power levels; it's why he totally discard the scouter concept and made them explode, not because their power level exceeded their capabilities, but because it couldn't make any calculations based on a "unknown" factor it keep messing their calculations, lets call this factor Ki, or luck or whatever.
Ive always figured the reason Goku tanked the bullet isnt because of his power level but because of his physiology. Also, the math for lifting a car isnt all that reliable, because Goku CHUCKS the car, which requires more strength than just lifting. And then later on, still prior to Roshi training, Goku pushes this massive rock - which unless it was hollow - is also heavier than any large vehicle, let alone a small one.
Man thank god someone's finally talking about what has always infuriated me about any DB(Z) conversations online, the blind trust people put into those guidebooks power levels when I've always thought the same as you which was : they have no idea what they're saying and Toriyama didn't care. Please cover DBZ which is the way more debated version and explain to the world that the basis for all power levels post Frieza are based on the absurdity that Frieza's 4th reduced form is at 530 000 and not his 100% bulky form. It makes no sense as the shift in power levels would be sudden and absurdly high (plus in my (french) Dragon Ball collection, 3rd reduction frieza (second transformation) states that he's at "more than 100 000" which makes perfect sense and is not a translation error, while I don't know why because of some guidebooks or translation the world seems to think he is at 1 000 000 suddenly). Further explanation if you're interested : we know that true frieza (not bulky) is at 50% of his power, so we can assume that his 4th reduction is at a fourth of half of his power, making it 530 000/8 = 66 250, in which form he bodies Nail who's at 40 000 making him 66 250/40 000=1.65x stronger than him which makes sense, I mean nevermind you think what you want but while I never voice myself on the internet, seeing everyone getting it so wrong makes me glad someone is getting it right and is telling everyone.
Love Dragon ball but i don't think Freeza should've gotten a power level in his first form. It was also a mistake to give him a level in the millions in his 2nd form. At least the numbers were ignored after Namek
it can be hard to balance your story and maintain narrative tension when everyone has an exact number, that being said, while hard, it can add alot to your story when done well, like alot of the power levels in db are only introduced to be subverted later, like goku and piccolo still winning while at a massive disadvantage.
Impressive. I have to watch this before I die. 20 years ago in my teens, I took these things pretty seriously. We know that most manga artists especially Toriyama, didn't even think about this stuff when they didn't know how the story is going to develop in the next chapter.
7:00 Don't mean to bug you about details, but the Red Ribbon Army arc took place *after* the World Tournament Arc. I know not a lot of folks are great at remembering OG Dragon Ball, but it's a very simple progression to go from Pilaf Saga/Journey to the West parody > First World Tournament > Red Ribbon Army > Second World Tournament > King Piccolo > Third World Tournament/Goku vs. Piccolo.
the video doesn't follow events linearly, cause the only official number I had was 139 for roshi, i did the arc where that power was relevant first, then go back
Funnily enough I already have my own numbers for this I just. . made the list for myself, not to share But it'll be fun comparing my numbers to yours Edit: 3:11 Okay, first thing is. . I kind of threw this out too. . . I basically did power scaling of Dragon Ball itself first, and *then* fit it into DBZ power levels It just felt like the way to go about it Edit 2: Back to the previous point, this actually did bring up issues because if my numbers were correct (obviously they weren't) it would make Tien and Kami actually get *weaker* during the 5 year time skip That's been fixed by now, but it was kind of funny when it happened Edit 3: 5:21 How do we *really* know the Farmer with a Shotgun is an average farmer? Maybe he's actually really strong, but we wouldn't really know because the only person we ever see him fight is Raditz who was literally 300 times stronger than him
Thank you! DB isn’t talked about enough, and people never understand the power scale. I think you made a massive blunder though: You say at the beginning of the video power levels are linear, and Karin said Goku got several times training with him. There’s also Piccolo saying he’s several times above his dad, and Daimao saying he didn’t even use half his power in his first fight with Goku. IMO these kinds of lines should take precedence over calculating lifting strength. That’s what’s furthest from any kind of scale or consistency.
theres a few examples of people saying "they got several times stronger", its very hard to keep everything within 300 when gokus power doubles like 3 different times after the first tournament
5:00 I know it probably wouldn't change anything, but couldn't we just use the weight of the irl cars for that? Bulma's cars in the manga and promo are a 1980 Renault 5 Turbo and a 1965 Triumph TR4A respectively. Even if they're shown with a superdeformed design I'd still say they weight the same.
This is a very fun exercise, but I think where this video fails is in taking the scouter numbers at face value. Sure, Goku was at 416 according to Raditz' scouter.... when Goku was in a resting state. Goku has energy control, so he's not emitting his full power at all times like the Saiyans. I believe the number given by the scouter when Goku fires a Kamehameha (924) is much closer to his actual power at the time. That of course completely demolishes the data book numbers, which were already wild as you pointed out.
What a good video, it is the most coherent and complete that I have seen really if you notice the analysis you did and I hope that this and all your videos have support because they are very good. 🎉🎉
This is actually pretty well reasoned, most people seem to make pretty wild claims for power levels, honestly I find that ignoring as many guides as possible helps everything make a lot more sense lol.
Some people speculate that the water is poisonous and thus Goku got a Zenkai from that too. Though that would mean that Goku surviving his -cholesterol- heart virus would've also boosted him, and I don't think there's any proof of that happening, so maybe it was just mystical.
I love power levels. The most fun thing about them is that it teaches us to use deductive reasoning to figure out how the lore works. Toriyama once said that he loves implementing contradictions, so it’s never going to be perfect, but it’s always fun to create your own non-canon way of justifying it. But I think the closer you can get it to a canon explanation, the better.
Toriyama has said an interview before the power levels of bullshit and made up. That they don’t actually correlate to anything beyond the specific scene that they’re in.
The IDEA of powerlevels is a great way to quantify characters' overall stats provide some interesting tricks for the plot, but it wasn't tracked carefully like it should have been, turned into "higher number means I'm faster, stronger, tankier, etc than you", dumbing down fighting specializations, and just got out of control. Judging by the lack of thought i keep hearing for a lot of the questions for the series, i eventually just gave up and stopped caring. Enough damage has been done, for example, that we know humans will never be relevant again, but now fights aren't as interesting to me because we can't quantify the difference in abilities anymore... leading to problems like how Beerus strength goal post moves every arc.
It's a crime that you only have 680 subscribers (at the time of me writing this, and subscribing), yet this video was pretty high quality and entertaining. I like your laid-back approach to making videos. Sometimes, overproduction and insanely high energy can be draining. GG!
Regarding the power difference of kuririn and goku: The proportion of needed energy for the distance can be calculated as (V1/V2)^2. For 100 meters in 8.5 and 10.4s respectively, Goku expends roughly 50% more energy than Kuririn over the course of 100m. Assuming both can "continuously" output the power to maintain these speeds one can calculate the momentary energy consumption (V1/V2)^3 which would make Goku roughly 83% stronger putting Kuririn at 57. Tbf we would have to factor in some more information since Goku and Kuririn are not exactly identical in size and mass but I wouldn't put Kuririn under 40
@@Maimers54321 there's zero indication physics in dbz don't align with the real world from a classic mechanical approach. Thermodynamics and energy conservation is a different story.
A lot of people misunderstand power levels because they don't even understand what they're measuring. A lot people assume it just takes your total ki and measures it but it doesn't and that's an entirely different measurement within the series called kili. What it is is a measurement of several different stats combined together. Strength, speed and energy. However, the stats are weighted differently into whatever formula the scouters use to give you a number. The very first time we see power levels used, we see Goku get a 25% in power level after dropping 100 kilos of weight. In that very same fight, we see Goku get a 150% increase when charging a Kamehameha capable of destroying the moon. Idk about you but 600 kilos and the potential to blow up the moon are not remotely close to each other so physical stats are weighted heavier than ki blasts in the scouter formula. This problem comes from people assuming that DB characters physical stats scale to their energy attacks but they're nowhere close. We're shown this pretty blatantly throughout early dragon ball with Goku able to tank planet destroying attacks but still being harmed by bullets and missiles. Ki control gives them the ability to properly defend against ki based attacks but don't allow the same for physical attacks. It is true that you can use ki to enhance your physical stats but there's a limit before the body starts breaking down. The Kaioken is the best example of this. Ki blasts are an outward expression of energy and do not have the same physical limitations. We see this pretty often actually with ki blasts accomplishing what the physical body can't. As for proof of ki control being what helps protect DB characters from ki attacks, we also see, fairly often, characters taking control of another characters' attack. Both voluntarily and involuntarily. You must also consider that an increase in power level does not always mean that all stats increase accordingly despite what Vegeta says. Super Trunks had a large increase in power but was actually slower than before. It's not a very good metric to determine dragon ball speed and strength at all.
Kid goku being 10 makes sense the reasons being if you are over like actual 2 times strong as someone you can easily kill them. (Vegeta vs Qui) We see kid goku get hurt by bullets so it isnt that far off to say 10. If it were actually 70 kid goku would geniunly solo the whole series with oozaru. Great video tho
Dude I think you're massively overestimating being double as strong as someone else, and massively underestimating bullets. Lots of real people are many times stronger than the average joe, but they're not cutting firewood with their hands, punching through brick walls or goddamn tanking bullets.
@@killarjnNo, No, Farmer WITH a Shotgun is 5, and Goku is 10. Being 2x means you are essentially invulnerable to attacks of that level. While it wasn't a complete negation of damage, he remained relatively unharmed, and the unexpected factor have to be taken into consideration as well.
"No one understands Dragon Ball Power Levels" >Immediately starts using non-canon battle powers lol, lmao even. Asserting that battle powers must be linear and thus chapter 1 Goku could not have a battle power of 10, twice that of Farmer with a Shotgun is absurd when you forget that much powerful characters still have battle powers not that much higher numerically than Farmer with a Shotgun. Clearly this means that battle powers CANNOT be linear in scale.
i'll just say, there are no "cannon" battle powers for early db, toryama obviously didn't make the guide power levels so its really all up to our interpretation
@@yurazahMaster Roshi’s canon power level is 139 and that mf literally blew up the moon, if power levels are linear then it would only take 28 shotgun farmers to blow up the moon
I think it’s dishonest to compare a movie pamphlet and the databook. Power level doesn’t just correlate pure strength it calculates many aspects I don’t agree with hypothetically 79.
to be fair, I basically disapproved of both, I had initially given goku a 91 at that part, (assuming the car was heavier) but as I kept going it didnt work, so I had to go back and lower goku so everything else would fit better
Power Level/Fight level or whatever is just meassuring raw KI, which is why a machine can read it, otherwise it makes no sense how a machine can read how "skilled" you are, so that's never taken into account
In the beginning you say "Well a car is probably 30% less than a car on our planet..." Earth literally IS our planet. You're just pulling stuff out of nowhere to fit numbers. Not a good start.
What he probably meant with that is, since DB's Earth tech is way more advanced, he assumed that car might be lighter...? IDK lol Also the DB universe, Earth included, is VERY different in a ton of ways, including things as basic as continents, countries and much more. There's fucking dinosaurs, monsters, superhuman strenght, the whole ki blast and ki control stuff, etc. Hell, they can put houses and cars inside a freaking little capsule that somehow supresses the weight of whatever is inside, who is to say they can't make cars lighter? It's an assumption for sure, but nothing crazy or unrealistic for DB standards at all. And in case you wonder WHY they would make a car lighter, that's an easy one, because it would improve fuel efficiency and control DB is not even close to realistic so idk why that's such a big deal for you, the reality is that there's no way to perfectly powerscale everything and everyone because Akira never really gave much of a F, so there's inconsistencies everywhere Do it better if you can
Based off my understanding of the dialogue, I feel Piccolo didn't start wearing weights until the Raditz fight and that he was actually fighting at his full power in the Krillin fight during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. He removes his cape against Goku more for fashion than anything else, as there's no mention of a speed increase.
@@TheDanishGuyReviews he makes some good points but doesn't take other factors into consideration. He's right though, these PLS need proper scaling and not just random numbers thrown about. Goku in the beginning of DB being at 10 makes no sense. A safe number would be around 50. He's wrong in the fact that power doesn't fluctuate. It's safe to assume that Goku having a PL of 10, is accurate, while he's at complete rest. Hurling a 450+ kg log into the air, jumping roughly 10 metres, and punching them into smaller stove sized splits, is gonna require more power than twice the amount of a farmer. Not to mention picking up a 1,000 kg car, and tanking a 9mm round directly to the skull. Moments later one shotting a pterodactyl... Goku has to be around 50. Possibly 60 - 70. The whole foundational numbers need a good tweaking. I never finished yet either, and here making hasty judgments. I should at least hear him out fully. Lol. Edit: Watched the whole thing, but yeah he's wrong on that. The average Saiyan Warrior was around 1,500. Not citizen. He's wrong about Roshi as well, and some unnecessary changes, but he's on the right track. Lol. The numbers do need changing, he's right on that.
Power comparison in Dragon Ball killed forever: Muten Roshi can blow up the moon basically instantly. Freeza requires five (very long) minutes to blow up Namek. Initial Vegeta instantly destroys bug planet. Cell needs to blow himself up to destroy Earth, and does so slowly. Nuff said.
but there is more. 18 000 Vegeta was about to destroy Earth with Galick gun. Then we have Buu saga and ~400 000 000 warriors uses Kamehameha and other explosive stuff but Earth is somehow safe :) but you know, turbo fans will defend every BS in this anime :)
@@tastybekonn it gets funnier the longer the serie went, around the cell saga, there was often someone yelling " don't aim so far down, that's gonna destroy the earth" when someone was charging a named beam attack and now this mentality fell apart since even a random ki blasts should result in a disaster
Freeza could have instantly blown up the planet but he held back because he wasn't sure he could tank the explosion of the planet plus his own attack (probably because he never had to blow up a planet while he was still on it).
Got a hefty comment with some thoughts. I really enjoyed this video, it got my brain gears turning! 4:50 It’s worth considering how ki control works. Most people don’t know how to do it, so they’re just using physical muscles for punches and lifting. Someone with the same muscular strength, but with ki control added to that, would be able to exert greater force. I believe that’s part of what Goku was doing with lifting the car, how he was able to throw it and everything. For evidence, he managed to shoot a Kamehameha Wave on his first try. That shows he had some level of ki control already. This is likely also how Goku and friends can tank bullets, by strengthening their bodies with ki (which is something mentioned later in the franchise) even if only subconsciously. 6:16 Note that movement speed doesn’t always track linearly with strength. For a later example, Burter is significantly faster than Jeice, despite being around the same Power Level. The same applies to lifting strength, that not everybody with the same power level will have the same lifting strength. Some people are faster, others are more muscular. Even all-out ki blasts can differentiate in power between people with the same base Power Level, depending on the technique used. Really, the only constant is the Power Level itself, which can be sensed directly. 6:30 LOL I love that Launch joke. Anyway I do think she probably got stronger in her blond form, but I think it’s more that blue Launch is a ditz and doesn’t know how to use her strength properly. Compare it to Ginyu in Goku's body, maybe? 11:55 I personally think Arale’s Power Level is but to each their own. Another one I personally am confident on is Sourman, whose Power Level is "not sour enough" lol 16:10 Personally, I believe Roshi’s Max Power form (where he’s buff) is a x1.5 multiplier, similar to SSJ Grade 2. I think it’s a comparable transformation, since Roshi mentions it’s hard to move in Max Power mode. Also, regarding the power needed to blow up the Moon, I kinda doubt that you need to be as strong as 329 (Piccolo’s canon power with weights at the time) to do it since Piccolo just kinda did it on a whim, so I’m willing to believe Roshi could blow up the Moon with as little as 100-200. 18:15 I'd personally argue the Ultra Divine Water was the direct reason for the power boost, without any Zenkai involved. Zenkais are meant to be when there's damage caused by battle, not by poisons or illnesses. Also, note that Goku didn't mention getting a power boost until after he recovered from the drink, not when he healed after the fight with Old King Piccolo. 22:40 I think it's likely Yajirobe got a bit stronger from climbing Korin Tower with Goku on his back and hanging out where the air is thinner, plus he got a tiny taste of the Ultra Divine Water (maybe a Power Level increase of 1 or something). Also, I choose to believe he trained at least a bit on his own during those 3 years. 24:15 I believe Piccolo's weights bring him down by a percentage, not by a solid number. In the Raditz fight, his weights bring him down to around 78.9% (let's round and say it's 80%). 80% of 294 would be around 232. Additionally, it's worth mentioning that Piccolo was actually going easy on Krillin to avoid killing him, and he was caught off-guard with how crafty Krillin can be.
It’s funny. I’ve always found Goku supposedly being at a power level of 10 as weird. Goku was trained by Gohan, the fourth strongest being on the planet for like 7 years, and you’re telling me he’s only 5 points stronger than a farmer with a shot gun? That implies that had Goku not got Gohan’s training ( again fourth strongest guy on the planet), he could have very well been at a power level of 5 or lower. That’s what led me to believe that being a saiyan on its own doesn’t make you that much stronger than your average human. The thing that I head cannoned was that the main difference was your average adult Saiyan can manipulate ki, which they can use to manipulate their strength and durability
Literally episode 2 we see an axe shatter against Goku's skull and we already know he's bulletproof before then, Goku is obviously not only twice as strong as farmer with a shotgun with these in mind, so power levels are not linear. Baby Goku is also especially weak for a Saiyan and with a power level of only 10 (or even less as a baby) he is expected to be able to eradicate all life on Earth with the simple 10x multiplier of Ozaru.
@@jarlbalgruuf2415 Tbf, that’s because Goku had ki. In DB, you can only train your body to a certain extent, without amplifying their bodies with ki they aren’t bulletproof as seen in super.
@@just_an_internet_explorer8038 everyone has ki, it's literally your life force and physical energy. If you work out and train then you are literally increasing your ki.
@@jarlbalgruuf2415 kind of. It’s described as “THE LATENT POWER... IN YOUR BODY” and I was referring to the interview with Tori. You can only train your body to a certain level, amplify it with their latent power, ki is what makes them bulletproof.
Thank-you so much for everyone that tuned in to my first video, this has completely blown my expectations away, i would have been suprised to get like 1000 views and were almost at 50k. I was starting to lose motivation, feeling like everything Ive worked on in the last few years had produced little to no results, but seeing how passionate people are for my first db video has reignited my own passion, hope everyone tunes in for my next one, and thanks again!
What people miss is that Frieza Arc was straight parodying power-level concept. Detector was measuring some arbitrary concept of energy and ignoring stuff like training and strategy. Though yes, strategy also has its limits. Same is true for the power output. Goku was consonantly capable to increase his power level with training and in the end whole power-level concept didn't matter anything.
Ok
yeah, the algorithm keeps new creators suppressed and then suddenly decides they are worthy one day arbitrarily. you deserve it though
I feel like you just totally forgot the most important thing about earths fighters. At rest, they're exponentially weaker than when fighting. That is master yoshi's way.
When he fights for real, his power level spikes to over 10x his resting number.
also did you really not read about what popo is? He was able too tank hits from DBZ bad guys and he's never raised his power level.
@@lordkalem many people have commented this, its not normal to suppress your power, and they only start doing it after training with kami, roshi didn't participate in that training. popo is weaker than kami in the manga, your thinking of anime filler
power levels cant be anywhere near linear unless you believe 150 farmers with 150 shotguns could blow up the moon
yeah
It's stupid, because 150 farmers doesn't mean a 30x times stronger and no one of them knows Ki manipulation and kamehameha. So powerlevels are easily can be linear
Unfortunately power levels can't really be multipliers either unless you think Krillin was close to Frieza's power level on Namek.... Or that Saiyan tails (even when explicitly trained to remove the weakness of being grabbed) are so weak Great Ape vegeta's tail loses to Yajirobe's sword with an already massive power difference.
And if you're about to say Destructo Disc is just that strong, I'll point out it didn't work on Cell's neck.
no, but if cell absorbed 150 farmers, he would get a moons worth of a power boost
Power levels are absolutely not linear in DBZ, where differences of 50% or lower regularly result in fights so uneven that one party can't even harm the other, or in some cases a whole team of fighters struggle against one guy.
Cell saga is full of this. If we assume linear scaling, and that the numbers people are bootstrapping for various characters are anywhere close to where they should be, the Z fighters should have been able to basically just jump on Perfect Cell at any time and just overpower him. But that's clearly not the case. Power gaps in DBZ almost seem to follow an exponential curve to the point where a 200% advantage in power in enough to completely and effortlessly humiliate an opponent, which really shouldn't be the case if the scaling is linear.
It actually makes sense that Arale's power fluctuates randomly from 1 - infinity so it really just depends on the moment.
She beat Vegeta
Especially when its artificially inflated via outside stimulants such as her cosplaying as Ultraman or when she was given Playtime X.
Her power level is directly proportional to how funny it would be.
Well she is a gag character. She like characters such as Saitama can one shot the entire multiverse of manga, comic books, anime, etc.
@@bigjohnsbreakfastlog5819I love Dr. Slump so much lmao cosplaying as ultraman
It's ironic that Toriyama introduced powerlevels and showed how unreliable they are, only to have people debate about it for 2 decades.
Yeah, people really miss that the entire point of Power Levels was Toriyama actively criticizing people who would try to quantify the strength of the characters. All that mattered to the storytelling, as far as Toriyama was concerned, was a general hierarchy of which character was stronger than which other characters at any point in time. Their actual "feats" would just fluctuate based on the dramatic demands of the scene and whatever Toriyama thought was fun at that precise moment.
3 decades now
4 decades, bro
@@FirstLast-wk3kc naw not yet, getting close tho
@@Shaqueefalot close enough to me...?
But okay, if you want to be precise => sure.
Ox King 900 power level is like a feverdream youd only read in fanfics
According to that magazine Oz king would solo all OG Dragon Ball and be a match for raditz..............
It more that Ox king can't lower his power to the same skills as all of the other characters.
My guess is thst Ox is always at 900 where other can lower and raise their power level. With is based on the fact that Goku and Piccolo could somewhat fight raditz who what 3 times their individual power levels and the fact that Goku was almost able to match Raditz with Kamahamaha and Piccolo actually surpassed him with the Special beam canon.
But Goku and Piccolo PLs were only 300-400 ish at the time.
Quoting TFS Vegeta: "POWER LEVELS ARE BS!!!"
They always were
BS?
@@PedroMiguelJesus-d4u Bull Poo
DBZ is so influential that it taught other manga writers to never use power levels in their own works.
I think Yu Yu Hakusho slept thru that lesson during the Three King Arc
NNT actually used it correctly or atleast better than db and then dropped it later
That and how not to waste human fighters by having them outclassed by non humans
One Piece kind of had power levels for an arc, but it was very specific. You can also argue bounties are equivalent
they didnt all learn this lesson, similar things show up in lots of shonnen
It took Goku 7 years training with Kami for him to barely defeat Piccolo Jr. at the end of Dragon Ball. It took the earthlings 1 year of training with Kami for them to catch up to Raditz, who had previously soloed both Goku and Piccolor Jr. at the same time.
moral of the story, set your goals high
7? You mean 3?
@@AgentZoro I don't remember how long it was between the Piccolo Jr. timeskip. I thought it was 7, due to how much Goku grew in that time, and the fact he ends up having a kid.
@@NyrufaNo bro, Goku was 15 when he fought King piccolo, then there was a 3 year time skip when he had his fight with piccolo Jr, and then there was a 6 year time skip when Goku was 24 and his son Gohan was introduced at 4 years old previous to fighting raditz
7 Years for Buu, 3 Years for Androids, 1 Year for Mecha Frieza, 1 Year between Raditz & Frieza, 5 Years between DB End & Start of Z, 3 Years between King Piccolo & 23rd Budokai Tenkaichi. Goku was 16 at the 22nd Budokai Tenkaichi & 11 during the 21st Budokai Tenkaichi.
Saying "Eighteen hundred thousand" when you mean "18 thousand" at the start of a video about numbers and figures is pretty wild 😂
Came here to comment the same thing. TIL 9,000 x 2 = 1,800,000
fr
i know, that was like breaking an ankle before a 100m dash
^2
To me the problem from the start is that scouter power levels are based on energy/ki emission. Just like the Androids technically register at 0, it is possible that every human with no ki control capabilities naturally simply registers at 5. Farmer with the shotgun? 5. Bulma? 5. Mr. Satan? 5.
Maybe those powers for Krilin and Muten were just the energy emission at rest and Muten was actually a 600 while Krilin was actually a 500 when at full power, with Muten being lower only when at rest.
And I know the question is what are these characters' actual levels beside the limitations of the scouter, but that's the thing: if you're using the scouter as a starting point every read needs to be contextualized. What even is power level??
We treat these power levels and "transformation multipliers" as if they're just some RPG stats, and of course we do because it's fiction and that's what's fun about this whole thing, it's a fun brain teaser, but if it was real life you know it would be more complex, you don't just train for a while and come back 5x stronger, and even if you did does power level simply is your brute strength or does it account for agility? Some may say it obviously doesn't since it's just raw power, others may say it obviously does since it's your life energy and that generates strentgh as well as agility, focus, etc.
Those questions don't have a definitive answer because it's unexplained in the manga! Or rather, from what we gather the scouter simply indicates your ki level and there's that. We treat it as a sort of all-encompassing cheat number but the whole point of it in the story is that it is NOT all-encompassing and it can even be tricked.
If any of us were to come up with a power level system from scratch, I don't think anybody would be as superficial as to use a single number, we would obviously evaluate a strength number, a speed number and so forth (more like superhero stats in official Marvel handboooks). Then if you really want you can do a weighted average or something and give an overall score but that only gives you a tier for the character, not a precise measurement of capabilities.
And heck if you want power level to be that let it be that, but still that would need a precise evaluation, it feels like with DB levels people just go "character 1 beat character 2 so he gets a hugher number..." That is not even power level, that is just a league ranking! Or a judge score! Like "Oh he's pretty good, he gets a 7/10, but not as good as tihs other guy, who gets 7.5/10"
Still, very enjoyable video overall!
Fair and i like it
Mr. Satan is much higher than 5, don't slander the champ
@@jarlbalgruuf2415 No he has a Power level of 0.01 but his actual power is in the trillions.
I've always wondered how exactly scouters calculate power levels ever since it was revealed that the scouters will register someone removing their weighted training clothes and increase their power level accordingly. What is the mechanism behind that? Is the scouter detecting that they can move faster without the weights? Is it estimating power levels according to some complex mathematical formula that takes into account not just ki energy and muscle strength but also factors as subtle as restrictive clothing? Could the scouter take into account other subtle factors, like if you were sleepy and drank some caffeine and became more alert would that increase your power level?
@@AlteredNova04 I just figured they used some of their ki to help them with the weighted clothing. The clothing acts as physical, mental, and energy training for them.
Where it gets screwy with me is when they suppress their energy and their power levels raising beyond their base when preparing a ki blast as seen in the Raditz fight, and he was surprised by that. If that's the case then Vegeta's gallet gun to Goku during their fight should've had his power level raised as well, which it might've actually since Goku had to go Kaioken x4 to beat him in that beam struggle.
its starting to sink in how insane blowing up the moon actually is. we dont question it as much because it's so far away when they do it, but imagine master roshi literally blowing up an entire CONTINENT to dust, which the moon is comparable to, if not a degree more massive since its a continent length across and also deep.
yep thats why we see freeza flick his finger and obliterate a large planet, and people dont think about how he didnt just destroy it, he obliterated it, theres a big difference between the 2
Great video! I think its clear "power level" just measures ki aura. That is why the readings fluctuate when an Earth martial artist uses a special attack.
Time and time again it's proven that power levels are not linear at least until the saiyan saga, so Goku having 10 at the beggining of DB is fine. It's funny how you just take into account the car but ignore all the other strenght and speed statements and showings.
can you give some examples? db has basically no official power levels till the sayian saga, so dont you think its weird to say its non linear in the non power levels era? its alot easier to just ignore the 10
@yurazah Goku takes a whole day to climb Korin's tower at first but he later climbs up and down in just 3 hours.
Goku said that his power doesn't compare to Old King Piccolo's, and Old King Piccolo replies by saying that he wasn't even using half of his strenght.
According to Piano, Old Demon King Piccolo is "nothing" compared to Young King Piccolo.
Piccolo Jr says he has gotten "many times" stronger than Young King Piccolo.
And I'm ignoring the fact that Roshi and Piccolo destroyed the freaking moon.
@@dimitri4888 I see, its hard to keep everything 100% consistent even within your own story (like goku struggling to lift 40 tons) I think anything like this would probably have minor issues, a big underlying idea behind the video is me trying to justify old db having linear powers to be consistent with their depiction in z and I think it works pretty well to be interpreted in this way, but your right that you could argue thoes things and easily blow things out of proportion saying stuff like they got 2x stronger over and over, thats definitely a viable interpretation aswell.
@@dimitri4888 I think you misinterpreted what I said, I basically agreed with you that it was a viable way to interpret events.
@yurazah My bad, tbh I couldn't concentrate well when I was reading your comment and typing that third comment I deleted.
3:30 It wasn’t Super it was Toriyama. DB Minus is the bonus chapter at the end of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. Drawn and written by Toriyama. While the special was canon to the manga originally (and I prefer it by a mile) it’s no longer canon. In minus, we actually don’t see Bardock’s confrontation with Freeza (unlike DBS Broly) so you’re supposed to assume he changed outfits before that occurs.
yeah, I did know that, just trying to justify why I want to keep considering the special cannon. hey thanks for checking out my video your a big inspiration to me!
@@yurazah thanks! hope your channel does well :)
BTW would you just consider minus cannon? (Cause he could have swapped the outfit?) And not the brolly scene? Cause we see his rebellion in brolly and he's wearing his super armor, so technically inconsistent with the manga pannel)
wait, why specifically is the original Bardock Special not canon? did Toriyama say it isn't? or did something in DBM contradict it?
you say we don't see his confrontation with Freeza (based for spelling it that way) in DBM... doesn't that leave room? room for the version of events depicted in the special?
@@strider_hiryu850Shueshia and Bird studios which was being ran and was owned by Toriyama threw a canon tour in 2018. It’s the first time they used the word also. They stated the manga, Jacos manga, DBM, FnF and the Broly movie is the one and only canon up until that point and FnF and Broly only because they didn’t have full manga adaptations.
Nothing anime wise, even the DBS anime is canon. The TV specials and movies aren’t either. Bardock appeared in the Z manga as he did in the TV special and Toriyama just retconned it, like he did with Goku’s age arriving on earth.
11:57: "I'd say Arale's power fluxuates from 1 and infinite"
I literally burst out laughing. That is SO funny.
It's not wrong. If it would be funny, her power skyrockets.
Great video, as someone who's also dabbled into this stuff I can appreciate the effort that's put into this! I'm going to check out the Sparking Zero BP video after this and I hope you continue making content like this. I want to say, though, over the years I've NEVER seen anyone actually take the Movie 3 Pamphlet numbers seriously so please let me know who you've seen using them because I want to see what kind of person would do that.
About the Kid Goku being just a 10 thing; I know the out-of-universe explanation is that the staff just didn't think about it that much but in-universe I've always thought of the Scouter numbers to follow a kind of logarithmic function where the gap between, say, 5 and 10 would be exponential but the gap between 50,000 and 100,000 would be linear.
It makes sense for Frieza's army where even the weaker soldiers like Raditz have a battle power of 1,500 and can nuke entire continents in a single attack so instead of their energy level being 1.5 x 10^29 Joules it's just 1,500 with no unit. Then backtracking from that number, if it were linear, both someone like a regular human and a trained martial artist like Kid Goku would have a battle power of almost 0. So it could make sense why the numbers are 5 and 10 instead for readability's sake, both in-universe and out-of-universe.
You could even argue that the power levels get more linear at the end so that when Frieza pulls out his "My power level is 530,000" it appears that much more intimidating. Like the soldiers think that two guys with a PL of 5 have no chance against a guy with a PL of 10 and so Frieza with his massive 530k numba is absolutely unsurpassable but they'd be wrong because they CAN surpass him just by ranging a few parks with Android 17.
The power levels getting linear at the end also explains why Piccolo can jump from 3,500 in the Saiyan Arc to over 250,000 in the Namek arc in just a few days; it just appears like a big jump according to the power level system when in reality it's more or less his regular rate of growth.
ya I agree that the non linear interpretation works and is obviously the widely accepted interpretation, I thought it would be interesting to push back against that a bit here. also the specific example of movie 3 pamphlet, alot of bigger db creators who dont look that deep into power levels have used it, like masako x has used the ox king 900 level before, tho keep in mind he cares very little for power scaling and his videos prioritize narrative even if it dosent make sense power wise (also the sz video is kinda low effort, I didnt expect this one to do so well, I'll have to make more like this in the future.)
Krillin's Power Level on his first appearance might be higher than his seniors', but the years of bullying beforehand just had a psychological effect on him
Shotgun farmer could solo SSJ4 Gogeta
Rs
Y’all are pushing that meme to its limits😂
Base cabba with shotgun solos
"My weed"
But can he beat base Cabba tho?
As the wise Saiyan once said, "power levels are bull****."
2:51 Ox King DID fight off tanks ON FOOT and with HAND WEAPONS though. That was still pretty impressive.
Krillin was only training for 8 years to our knowledge
isn't 139 not even really Roshi's power level because it was scanned while he was relaxing so he isn't charged up?
Yes, Roshi could hang with Tien who had a PL of 180 (going by memory, I think it was around 180) by going semi-buff. You'd think his fully muscular form would be even higher.
@@Procrastinaterkinda... But Tien was like supercocky, he wasn't fighting serious until he used Taio- Ken. Roshi definitely could give Tien a run for his money, but would loose in the end anyway.
It's a pity he gave up that early and there was no rematch... It could be like Rocky vs Appolo
@@alexzero3736 Roshi always figured that he had been surpassed, if anything he undersold himself. Tien figured he had not begun to fight seriously yet, which is true, Roshi could still draw out a lot more power, and he did not use his lightning flash suprise attack, a move I do not see Tien having an answer to. Likewise, Tien did not use his four arm technique or kikoho against Roshi.
Roshi forfited the fight as he saw potential in Tien and pitied his situation being under the thumb of crane hermit.
Yeah. Some people used to think anyone above 139 was a moonbuster
roshi is not 139. its way more. hes just holding back on purpose.
1. Power level disparities are logarithmic. Logs grow at a slower and slower rate. Exponentials grow and a faster and faster rate. This is why an edge is gained quickly in the low 100s, where a difference of maybe 40 makes for a pretty insurmountable foe, but when levels get into the trillions fights start to get closer unless there's a magnitude of difference. That is to say an extra zero, or possibly a few, are needed to secure the same ease.
2. The average low level saiyan is NOT at 1,500 as Raditz was considered a mid-class anywhere from 1,200 to 1,500.
3. I am very glad you made this video. TFS hacky jokes aside, powerlevels are always a very fun discussion.
Huh, i always imagined the lower powerlevels not being accurate due to just measurements tapering off at a certain point, like how humans are extremely weak by the galaxy's standard of like probably hundreds or thousands for powerlevels so the system used to calculate it becomes less accurate when measure the power levels below a certain threshold, making it more logarithmic isntead of linear
This is all discounting that the power levels of humans in dragon ball are variable.
Roshi sitting at home being lazy isn't going to have the same power level as roshi actively fighting goku to his limit at the 20th budokai
That car Goku lifts is actually based on the R5 Turbo from the early 80’s. Weighed less than 1000 kg, maybe 1050 kg with Bulma and her belongings in it. Then again, they manage to reduce it to a capsule, physics told me more matter in a tiny volume increases the density and therefore weight, so that capsule must be at least as heavy if not heavier and she's carrying many of them, don't underestimate Bulma.
2:14 You forget that Chichi has learned the Kaioken.
what?
@@yurazah It's a joke about Chichi anger making a red aura
@@GeneralPuppet oh, from the black water mist filler right?
@@yurazah ruclips.net/video/0VuMGpF2D8s/видео.htmlsi=DzPfkEpj503bi3Sy
The farmer with a shotgun rank is using his shotgun in the calculation of his power level. Goku at the beginning of the series was implied to not be able to take a point-blank hit from a shotgun (I think during his invasion of the tower in the ice place). It makes sense the farmer has a 5 and he’s a 10
5:22 - Actually, Raditz was classified as a mid-class Saiyan hence why he was working alongside the young Elite Saiyan Prince Vegeta and adult mid-class veterans like Nappa, even though he was still a child as low class children are generally sent off world to invade weak planets as infiltration babies which was how Bardock and Gine were able to convince everyone that Kakarot was sent to Earth by the Saiyan Army when in reality Bardock stole an Attack Ball space pod and sent Kakarot to Earth cause he feared Frieza was planning to exterminate them (mind you if he was wrong he planned to retrieve Kakarot and Gine used Kakarot being sent to Earth as a cover story to contact Raditz via Scouter to inform him of Kakarot's whereabouts, which is why Raditz, Vegeta, & Nappa believed he was sent to invade Earth completely unaware it was in defiance of Frieza's return order and Kakarot's departure was organized by his parents to save their youngest son, knowing Raditz was safely offworld with the Saiyan Prince something Gine herself took pride in as most of Raditz's family were born low class (Gine due to her gentle personality & being poorly suited to planetary conquest which required Bardock to save her leading to their relationship and becoming a couple, with Gine retiring from Team Bardock to become a meat processing employee, which is basically the Saiyan equivalent to a butcher)!
Raditz was considered weak compared to his comrades Vegeta and Nappa cause they were born into upper class families, with Vegeta being royalty and heir to the throne before Planet Vegeta was destroyed, while Nappa was a veteran mid-class Saiyan who was the strongest Saiyan next to the King Vegeta & Prince Vegeta as knowledge of Broly's elite power level was suppressed by King Vegeta!
Bulma’s car in the real world assuming there is a one two one ratio would way 1 ton I’m not joking
If it is 30% of a real world car then it would be 600 pounds
The turtle having such a low power level makes me think of how many turtles it would take to defeat goku.
1 if you throw it hard enough
One thing about Roshi though is he's one of the first humans to learn to control ki. So when Bulma measures him when he's just chilling at his house that 139 isn't necessarily what he would be in battle when he's focused
this is probably the most said thing in these comments, there is no direct evidence that roshi could conceal his power and only comes up after vegeta arives on earth, id assume you would have no reason to until after they knew about the scouters, both goku and piccolos numbers were lowered due to their weighted training clothing, but other than that the scouter picked up their full power, so people before z are not capable of reducing their power levels edit- kami trained goku in proper ki control, so roshi by comparison must have low ki control
I'm pretty sure canonically the average power level of a person is 4-5.
yeah, if your as strong as a farmer
@@yurazah Turtle has a power level of 0.001. If power scaling is 1:1, then can a regular human can beat 300-500 turtles?
@@ZeroNumerousthis reminds me of a what- if someone had said before where they asked if you could survive in a infinite space against 300 snapping turtles, and it was dragonball related cause they also said, goku could probably do it
@@ZeroNumerousTurtle is weak for a turtle anyway
@@ZeroNumerous Dont think a power level has anything to do with weight. I mean, if I'm level 4 and my girlfriend level 2 that doesn't mean I can easily lift up two of her at the same time (let alone easily lift up only one of her). It just means in a literal battle between us I'd be twice as strong as she is.
Or to put it another way, Goku is stronger than Vegeta, so could Vegeta lift up Goku? Well, of course he could, because Goku's strength has nothing to do with this weight. Vegeta could lift up a thousand Gokus, probably even millions of them. He just couldn't beat any one of them.
The problem was never Power Levels.
Having a power scale is fine.
Giving zero fucks whatsoever about it and just filling in whatever number sounds cool at the time is NOT.
And that's how Toriyama wrote power levels.
I love the guy and his works, but he was the worst possible person to write a power scale, he enjoyed writing like the Buu saga had, laissez-faire, "random bullshit go" if you will.
So sticking to an internally consistent scale was never in the cards for his work.
Underrated youtuber, i love how you, eplain everything
thank you!
i wasn't expecting much but i felt the effort in this video, not just throwing number but providing reasoning behind everything. I think toriyama himself could learn a thing or 2 from this video lol
Being a ninja and thus presumably having martial arts training, Shu/Shao/Sho/Shoe whatever the localization calls the little fox guy this time around could easily be in the higher single digits and break nothing in terms of power scale. He'd be the muscle of the group.
Thought you were going to talk about the ninja from muscle tower at first lol
@@Grape_Rush_Goat That ninja's definitely a better one at the whole ninja gig and I expect his ki levels to be higher. The little fox ninja might only be a 6 like a common foot soldier, but I would prefer to highball him at a 9.
@@RoninCatholic I could see it
easily one of the most underrated youtubers, and you definitely have a future on yt. earned my subscribe, and ill be watching a lot of you dbz videos.
Surprised this doesnt have way more views, great video!
👍 It’s genuine quality
Farming isn't easy. The farmer with a PL of five, close to Kid Goku, I'd believe.
Great video!
feel honoured to become your 500th sub my guy.
this was both informative, humorous, cheeky & undisputable in your reasoning. (other than Launch being the first ssj🧔🏼♀️🔥😸).
keep churning out content that challenges the common consensus narrative in your quirky style- you'll be at 50k subs fast as goku ran the 💯💪🏼💨.
It would honestly be pretty funny to see Bulma actually have a PL of 12 and bringing her back to go against kid Goku and win. Considering many of the strength feats goku has at that point it would be pretty funny to see Bulma be able to overpower him despite it making no sense
Unpopular opinion but I actually prefer the og dragon ball (I read the manga btw) because it feels more magical than dbz. You can clearly tell the difference between the chinese inspiration for the og and the western sci-fi inspiration for dbz. Just my opinion tho
Im a huge og fan
Yeah that's cool but DBZ is still better tho. OG Dragon Ball is 80% jokes, gags, and tournaments with basically zero stakes going on. If that fits your vibe better, cool, but it's just way less appealing for most people. Every fight in DBZ has stakes going on, everything is super dramatic, the dialogue goes hard and the one liners go absolutely insane. Everything is generally just bigger, flashier and more important. Dragon Ball feels like an appetizer for DBZ in that sense.
The best villain in OG Dragon Ball is Demon King Piccolo, who ain't even on the mount Rushmore of Dragon Ball villains imo. And no Vegeta or Gohan basically means that DB just doesn't have any interesting characters to speak of at all outside of Piccolo Jr. No disrespect to Tien, he was a fine antagonist, but if he was more interesting Toriyama would have probably used him more than once after that. "But what about Goku" Goku as a kid is a good gag character but that's about it.
Then there's all the weird shit OG Dragon Ball does constantly. Bro if your parents walked in on you watching OG Dragon Ball you'd change the channel. You don't want to have to explain any of that crap. What's with Japanese people and panties.
Basically, I'm saying that OG DB probably does just vibe with you better, but there's many good reasons that opinion ain't popular.
@@GeorgePerakis I disagree with almost everything you said.
@@GeorgePerakiszero stakes? You can't be serious. Who could predict that Roshi would step out from the ring? Furthermore with Tiens victory. And Kami disguised as some nerd on next tournament...
Agreed, I especially hate how the fighting in Z degenerates into endless pointless kicks and punches and the occasional energy beam attack, that is always the exact same.
Power levels in Dragon Ball are logarithmic, otherwise they would make no sense at all, especially after the Saian saga, but it does not change the fact that within 70 episodes, the power inflation in Dragon Ball reached such a rate that the creator of this scale had to permanently stop using it.
otherwise we would have a Zimbabwe simulator instead of Dragon ball.
Finally someone else who realizes they have to be logarithmic to make sense at all
If they were logarithmic, Saiyan saga Vegeta would be multiversal, you tard. Don’t play with concepts you don’t understand as if you’re a big boy just because you watched “power scalers” count pixels on a screen and declare the power of an attack.
Can you explain what does "logaritchmic power levels" means? Sounds interesting! But all i know about logarithmics are school maths works xdd
@@CreperbossAngel it’s exactly like what you see in school. Google logarithmic graph and that’s how power levels work, the stronger you are the more you need to do to make a difference in strength
@@CreperbossAngel this means that, if we are using base 10 logaritm, a person with power level of 2 is 10x stronger than one with 1. This fix the problem of the farmer with 130 shotguns that can destroy the moon, because to have a power level of 130 the farmer would need to multiply his strenght by 10^125 (this is 1 followed by 125 zeros.)
noone understands dragonball power levels cause theyre just stupid
youre not gonna understand something that doesnt make sense, isnt made WITH any sense, and just honestly doesnt mean a whole lot
the only thing you need to understand about power levels is that whenever theyre mentioned its just a quick and messy way to outline who is the more dangerous, and a quick excuse to breeze past some guys just no-selling attacks for no real reason, only to suddenly skip to getting their ass whooped like it was made of soft-serve with no inbetween
They are meant to be, they are a joke!
General Blue at 88? I see what you did there! xD
Based
The appearance of Rhymestyle killed me off
wuzgonevery
very interesting video, thanks! I think that what made OG DB so great was because there was no power scaling. If i remember correctly, Toriyama said in an interview that he regreted introducing the scouter thing in Z to measure power levels; it's why he totally discard the scouter concept and made them explode, not because their power level exceeded their capabilities, but because it couldn't make any calculations based on a "unknown" factor it keep messing their calculations, lets call this factor Ki, or luck or whatever.
Ive always figured the reason Goku tanked the bullet isnt because of his power level but because of his physiology. Also, the math for lifting a car isnt all that reliable, because Goku CHUCKS the car, which requires more strength than just lifting. And then later on, still prior to Roshi training, Goku pushes this massive rock - which unless it was hollow - is also heavier than any large vehicle, let alone a small one.
This is a good video. It's also edited great. Hope to see more from you.
thank u! I have some more stuff like this planned
Roshi's moon busting Kamehameha probably boosts his power level above his base. Remember scouter readings go up when they do special attacks.
You gave Major Metallitron, the terminator reference, a 101.
I see what you did there.
you think they fixed him after? he might still be around somewhere
Man thank god someone's finally talking about what has always infuriated me about any DB(Z) conversations online, the blind trust people put into those guidebooks power levels when I've always thought the same as you which was : they have no idea what they're saying and Toriyama didn't care. Please cover DBZ which is the way more debated version and explain to the world that the basis for all power levels post Frieza are based on the absurdity that Frieza's 4th reduced form is at 530 000 and not his 100% bulky form. It makes no sense as the shift in power levels would be sudden and absurdly high (plus in my (french) Dragon Ball collection, 3rd reduction frieza (second transformation) states that he's at "more than 100 000" which makes perfect sense and is not a translation error, while I don't know why because of some guidebooks or translation the world seems to think he is at 1 000 000 suddenly).
Further explanation if you're interested : we know that true frieza (not bulky) is at 50% of his power, so we can assume that his 4th reduction is at a fourth of half of his power, making it 530 000/8 = 66 250, in which form he bodies Nail who's at 40 000 making him 66 250/40 000=1.65x stronger than him which makes sense, I mean nevermind you think what you want but while I never voice myself on the internet, seeing everyone getting it so wrong makes me glad someone is getting it right and is telling everyone.
Love Dragon ball but i don't think Freeza should've gotten a power level in his first form. It was also a mistake to give him a level in the millions in his 2nd form. At least the numbers were ignored after Namek
it can be hard to balance your story and maintain narrative tension when everyone has an exact number, that being said, while hard, it can add alot to your story when done well, like alot of the power levels in db are only introduced to be subverted later, like goku and piccolo still winning while at a massive disadvantage.
@@yurazah i agree. Great video.
Impressive. I have to watch this before I die.
20 years ago in my teens, I took these things pretty seriously. We know that most manga artists especially Toriyama, didn't even think about this stuff when they didn't know how the story is going to develop in the next chapter.
7:00 Don't mean to bug you about details, but the Red Ribbon Army arc took place *after* the World Tournament Arc. I know not a lot of folks are great at remembering OG Dragon Ball, but it's a very simple progression to go from Pilaf Saga/Journey to the West parody > First World Tournament > Red Ribbon Army > Second World Tournament > King Piccolo > Third World Tournament/Goku vs. Piccolo.
the video doesn't follow events linearly, cause the only official number I had was 139 for roshi, i did the arc where that power was relevant first, then go back
For some reason I watched the entire thing even though I haven't seen Dragon Ball. Guess this video was just interesting.
Funnily enough I already have my own numbers for this
I just. . made the list for myself, not to share
But it'll be fun comparing my numbers to yours
Edit: 3:11
Okay, first thing is. . I kind of threw this out too. . . I basically did power scaling of Dragon Ball itself first, and *then* fit it into DBZ power levels
It just felt like the way to go about it
Edit 2: Back to the previous point, this actually did bring up issues because if my numbers were correct (obviously they weren't) it would make Tien and Kami actually get *weaker* during the 5 year time skip
That's been fixed by now, but it was kind of funny when it happened
Edit 3: 5:21
How do we *really* know the Farmer with a Shotgun is an average farmer? Maybe he's actually really strong, but we wouldn't really know because the only person we ever see him fight is Raditz who was literally 300 times stronger than him
Thank you! DB isn’t talked about enough, and people never understand the power scale.
I think you made a massive blunder though: You say at the beginning of the video power levels are linear, and Karin said Goku got several times training with him. There’s also Piccolo saying he’s several times above his dad, and Daimao saying he didn’t even use half his power in his first fight with Goku.
IMO these kinds of lines should take precedence over calculating lifting strength. That’s what’s furthest from any kind of scale or consistency.
theres a few examples of people saying "they got several times stronger", its very hard to keep everything within 300 when gokus power doubles like 3 different times after the first tournament
5:00 I know it probably wouldn't change anything, but couldn't we just use the weight of the irl cars for that? Bulma's cars in the manga and promo are a 1980 Renault 5 Turbo and a 1965 Triumph TR4A respectively. Even if they're shown with a superdeformed design I'd still say they weight the same.
idk db is a weird futuristic world, i bet their versions would be better
This is a very fun exercise, but I think where this video fails is in taking the scouter numbers at face value. Sure, Goku was at 416 according to Raditz' scouter.... when Goku was in a resting state. Goku has energy control, so he's not emitting his full power at all times like the Saiyans. I believe the number given by the scouter when Goku fires a Kamehameha (924) is much closer to his actual power at the time.
That of course completely demolishes the data book numbers, which were already wild as you pointed out.
One mistake i notice, you said the Time Skip was 5 years, but actually it is 3 years, they changed the number of years between each Tenkaichi Budokai;
what part was that? I might have been referring to the timeskip between og db and z, if not I might mention the mistake in the description
What a good video, it is the most coherent and complete that I have seen really if you notice the analysis you did and I hope that this and all your videos have support because they are very good. 🎉🎉
This is actually pretty well reasoned, most people seem to make pretty wild claims for power levels, honestly I find that ignoring as many guides as possible helps everything make a lot more sense lol.
Some people speculate that the water is poisonous and thus Goku got a Zenkai from that too.
Though that would mean that Goku surviving his -cholesterol- heart virus would've also boosted him, and I don't think there's any proof of that happening, so maybe it was just mystical.
Piccolo Junior didn't have weighted clothing in original Dragon Ball.
I love power levels. The most fun thing about them is that it teaches us to use deductive reasoning to figure out how the lore works.
Toriyama once said that he loves implementing contradictions, so it’s never going to be perfect, but it’s always fun to create your own non-canon way of justifying it. But I think the closer you can get it to a canon explanation, the better.
Toriyama has said an interview before the power levels of bullshit and made up. That they don’t actually correlate to anything beyond the specific scene that they’re in.
Maybe he shouldn't have made power levels in the first place?
@muhdfauzibmohdrais3844 He thought of them as a fun, gimmick to simply explain where two characters in one arc stand up to eachother.
Oh Jesus... Can fans like you stop making up Toriyama interviews, please? He never once said this, and you know it!
Plus, TFS is the one that said that Power Levels are Bullshit, not Toriyama. Do some freakin homework.
The shoulder pads might have actually been waits as they are only inside his clothes and he only took off his cloak
The IDEA of powerlevels is a great way to quantify characters' overall stats provide some interesting tricks for the plot, but it wasn't tracked carefully like it should have been, turned into "higher number means I'm faster, stronger, tankier, etc than you", dumbing down fighting specializations, and just got out of control.
Judging by the lack of thought i keep hearing for a lot of the questions for the series, i eventually just gave up and stopped caring. Enough damage has been done, for example, that we know humans will never be relevant again, but now fights aren't as interesting to me because we can't quantify the difference in abilities anymore... leading to problems like how Beerus strength goal post moves every arc.
It's a crime that you only have 680 subscribers (at the time of me writing this, and subscribing), yet this video was pretty high quality and entertaining.
I like your laid-back approach to making videos. Sometimes, overproduction and insanely high energy can be draining.
GG!
i think it's pretty to infer that Roshi at the beginning of Z is weaker than before because he has been slaking off in the years of peace
And the scouter scene was when he was chilling
I thought about that but decided to jus stick with 139, of you wana imagine him somewhere between 139 and 160 it could still work
If you want to go by Buu Saga, Gohan losing like half his power level after 8 years. Or Super, where he lost even more after half that.
@@dansmith1661 he did not lose half his power in the buu saga, vegeta said he was a little rusty
Someone should put a comment with a time stamp for every power level he gives to a character
Regarding the power difference of kuririn and goku:
The proportion of needed energy for the distance can be calculated as (V1/V2)^2. For 100 meters in 8.5 and 10.4s respectively, Goku expends roughly 50% more energy than Kuririn over the course of 100m.
Assuming both can "continuously" output the power to maintain these speeds one can calculate the momentary energy consumption (V1/V2)^3 which would make Goku roughly 83% stronger putting Kuririn at 57.
Tbf we would have to factor in some more information since Goku and Kuririn are not exactly identical in size and mass but I wouldn't put Kuririn under 40
uh... yeah... I totally did that math too... it just... didn't matter cause of what happens later in the video so I didn't bother including it...😁
:D
@@WallabyWinters or physics doesnt work in dbz like it does irl and its all nonsense so ur math makes 0 sense
@@Maimers54321 there's zero indication physics in dbz don't align with the real world from a classic mechanical approach. Thermodynamics and energy conservation is a different story.
Do you actually pronounce his name Kuririn or did you write it that way because you want to be different?
Very engaging video, I never cared for PLs but you explain it very well.
Young Goku survives bullets to the face because he was a gag manga character at the time btw
Lunch also aerated the Kame house and pistols generally penetrate better than her gun.
I wished you rounded kid Goku’s power level up to 80 and not just keep it at 79 that is annoying
yeah you got a future on yt bro. You're talented. Earned my sub.
tnk u☺
I respect you for ignoring Super BS retcon to Bardock. OG Bardock movie FTW!
My king came to save us 😩🙏🏻
A lot of people misunderstand power levels because they don't even understand what they're measuring. A lot people assume it just takes your total ki and measures it but it doesn't and that's an entirely different measurement within the series called kili. What it is is a measurement of several different stats combined together. Strength, speed and energy. However, the stats are weighted differently into whatever formula the scouters use to give you a number. The very first time we see power levels used, we see Goku get a 25% in power level after dropping 100 kilos of weight. In that very same fight, we see Goku get a 150% increase when charging a Kamehameha capable of destroying the moon. Idk about you but 600 kilos and the potential to blow up the moon are not remotely close to each other so physical stats are weighted heavier than ki blasts in the scouter formula.
This problem comes from people assuming that DB characters physical stats scale to their energy attacks but they're nowhere close. We're shown this pretty blatantly throughout early dragon ball with Goku able to tank planet destroying attacks but still being harmed by bullets and missiles. Ki control gives them the ability to properly defend against ki based attacks but don't allow the same for physical attacks. It is true that you can use ki to enhance your physical stats but there's a limit before the body starts breaking down. The Kaioken is the best example of this. Ki blasts are an outward expression of energy and do not have the same physical limitations. We see this pretty often actually with ki blasts accomplishing what the physical body can't. As for proof of ki control being what helps protect DB characters from ki attacks, we also see, fairly often, characters taking control of another characters' attack. Both voluntarily and involuntarily.
You must also consider that an increase in power level does not always mean that all stats increase accordingly despite what Vegeta says. Super Trunks had a large increase in power but was actually slower than before. It's not a very good metric to determine dragon ball speed and strength at all.
Kid goku being 10 makes sense the reasons being if you are over like actual 2 times strong as someone you can easily kill them. (Vegeta vs Qui) We see kid goku get hurt by bullets so it isnt that far off to say 10. If it were actually 70 kid goku would geniunly solo the whole series with oozaru. Great video tho
Dude I think you're massively overestimating being double as strong as someone else, and massively underestimating bullets. Lots of real people are many times stronger than the average joe, but they're not cutting firewood with their hands, punching through brick walls or goddamn tanking bullets.
@@killarjnNo, No, Farmer WITH a Shotgun is 5, and Goku is 10.
Being 2x means you are essentially invulnerable to attacks of that level.
While it wasn't a complete negation of damage, he remained relatively unharmed, and the unexpected factor have to be taken into consideration as well.
@@xooox_1777 idk if you're joking but the shotgun isn't a part of the calculation...
Nice vid man i subbed
"No one understands Dragon Ball Power Levels"
>Immediately starts using non-canon battle powers
lol, lmao even.
Asserting that battle powers must be linear and thus chapter 1 Goku could not have a battle power of 10, twice that of Farmer with a Shotgun is absurd when you forget that much powerful characters still have battle powers not that much higher numerically than Farmer with a Shotgun. Clearly this means that battle powers CANNOT be linear in scale.
i'll just say, there are no "cannon" battle powers for early db, toryama obviously didn't make the guide power levels so its really all up to our interpretation
@@yurazah Bro said "Cannon"
@@yurazahMaster Roshi’s canon power level is 139 and that mf literally blew up the moon, if power levels are linear then it would only take 28 shotgun farmers to blow up the moon
Loved the video dude
I think it’s dishonest to compare a movie pamphlet and the databook. Power level doesn’t just correlate pure strength it calculates many aspects I don’t agree with hypothetically 79.
to be fair, I basically disapproved of both, I had initially given goku a 91 at that part, (assuming the car was heavier) but as I kept going it didnt work, so I had to go back and lower goku so everything else would fit better
Power Level/Fight level or whatever is just meassuring raw KI, which is why a machine can read it, otherwise it makes no sense how a machine can read how "skilled" you are, so that's never taken into account
@@yurazah Goku pushed a gigantic rock several yards while training with Roshi that even he balked at trying. That is heavier than any car.
Hell yeah. I love it. Keep going!!!
In the beginning you say "Well a car is probably 30% less than a car on our planet..." Earth literally IS our planet. You're just pulling stuff out of nowhere to fit numbers. Not a good start.
What he probably meant with that is, since DB's Earth tech is way more advanced, he assumed that car might be lighter...? IDK lol
Also the DB universe, Earth included, is VERY different in a ton of ways, including things as basic as continents, countries and much more. There's fucking dinosaurs, monsters, superhuman strenght, the whole ki blast and ki control stuff, etc.
Hell, they can put houses and cars inside a freaking little capsule that somehow supresses the weight of whatever is inside, who is to say they can't make cars lighter? It's an assumption for sure, but nothing crazy or unrealistic for DB standards at all.
And in case you wonder WHY they would make a car lighter, that's an easy one, because it would improve fuel efficiency and control
DB is not even close to realistic so idk why that's such a big deal for you, the reality is that there's no way to perfectly powerscale everything and everyone because Akira never really gave much of a F, so there's inconsistencies everywhere
Do it better if you can
Agreed
That's exactly what I meant
Based off my understanding of the dialogue, I feel Piccolo didn't start wearing weights until the Raditz fight and that he was actually fighting at his full power in the Krillin fight during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. He removes his cape against Goku more for fashion than anything else, as there's no mention of a speed increase.
"The average adult weak Saiyajin is at 1500." So Radits is below average, then. Ouch!
The average Saiyan is DEFINITELY NOT 1,500. Lol. More like 300-500. Raditz was a 3rd Class Saiyan, not an average citizen.
@@arsnotoria3755 Oh, yeah, I mean, most of these counts seem pulled out of nowhere, so I didn't finish the video anyway.
@@TheDanishGuyReviews he makes some good points but doesn't take other factors into consideration. He's right though, these PLS need proper scaling and not just random numbers thrown about. Goku in the beginning of DB being at 10 makes no sense. A safe number would be around 50.
He's wrong in the fact that power doesn't fluctuate. It's safe to assume that Goku having a PL of 10, is accurate, while he's at complete rest. Hurling a 450+ kg log into the air, jumping roughly 10 metres, and punching them into smaller stove sized splits, is gonna require more power than twice the amount of a farmer. Not to mention picking up a 1,000 kg car, and tanking a 9mm round directly to the skull. Moments later one shotting a pterodactyl... Goku has to be around 50. Possibly 60 - 70. The whole foundational numbers need a good tweaking.
I never finished yet either, and here making hasty judgments. I should at least hear him out fully. Lol.
Edit: Watched the whole thing, but yeah he's wrong on that. The average Saiyan Warrior was around 1,500. Not citizen. He's wrong about Roshi as well, and some unnecessary changes, but he's on the right track. Lol. The numbers do need changing, he's right on that.
bro is so underated i am def subbing
Power comparison in Dragon Ball killed forever:
Muten Roshi can blow up the moon basically instantly. Freeza requires five (very long) minutes to blow up Namek. Initial Vegeta instantly destroys bug planet. Cell needs to blow himself up to destroy Earth, and does so slowly.
Nuff said.
but there is more. 18 000 Vegeta was about to destroy Earth with Galick gun. Then we have Buu saga and ~400 000 000 warriors uses Kamehameha and other explosive stuff but Earth is somehow safe :)
but you know, turbo fans will defend every BS in this anime :)
@@tastybekonn it gets funnier the longer the serie went, around the cell saga, there was often someone yelling " don't aim so far down, that's gonna destroy the earth" when someone was charging a named beam attack and now this mentality fell apart since even a random ki blasts should result in a disaster
Freeza could have instantly blown up the planet but he held back because he wasn't sure he could tank the explosion of the planet plus his own attack (probably because he never had to blow up a planet while he was still on it).
@@heirhead413 Goku also points out that frieza actually wanted to still fight him and thus avoided instantly blowing up namek iirc
@@tastybekonnwho shot at kamehameha at the earths core in the buu saga?
Got a hefty comment with some thoughts. I really enjoyed this video, it got my brain gears turning!
4:50 It’s worth considering how ki control works. Most people don’t know how to do it, so they’re just using physical muscles for punches and lifting. Someone with the same muscular strength, but with ki control added to that, would be able to exert greater force. I believe that’s part of what Goku was doing with lifting the car, how he was able to throw it and everything. For evidence, he managed to shoot a Kamehameha Wave on his first try. That shows he had some level of ki control already. This is likely also how Goku and friends can tank bullets, by strengthening their bodies with ki (which is something mentioned later in the franchise) even if only subconsciously.
6:16 Note that movement speed doesn’t always track linearly with strength. For a later example, Burter is significantly faster than Jeice, despite being around the same Power Level. The same applies to lifting strength, that not everybody with the same power level will have the same lifting strength. Some people are faster, others are more muscular. Even all-out ki blasts can differentiate in power between people with the same base Power Level, depending on the technique used. Really, the only constant is the Power Level itself, which can be sensed directly.
6:30 LOL I love that Launch joke. Anyway I do think she probably got stronger in her blond form, but I think it’s more that blue Launch is a ditz and doesn’t know how to use her strength properly. Compare it to Ginyu in Goku's body, maybe?
11:55 I personally think Arale’s Power Level is but to each their own. Another one I personally am confident on is Sourman, whose Power Level is "not sour enough" lol
16:10 Personally, I believe Roshi’s Max Power form (where he’s buff) is a x1.5 multiplier, similar to SSJ Grade 2. I think it’s a comparable transformation, since Roshi mentions it’s hard to move in Max Power mode. Also, regarding the power needed to blow up the Moon, I kinda doubt that you need to be as strong as 329 (Piccolo’s canon power with weights at the time) to do it since Piccolo just kinda did it on a whim, so I’m willing to believe Roshi could blow up the Moon with as little as 100-200.
18:15 I'd personally argue the Ultra Divine Water was the direct reason for the power boost, without any Zenkai involved. Zenkais are meant to be when there's damage caused by battle, not by poisons or illnesses. Also, note that Goku didn't mention getting a power boost until after he recovered from the drink, not when he healed after the fight with Old King Piccolo.
22:40 I think it's likely Yajirobe got a bit stronger from climbing Korin Tower with Goku on his back and hanging out where the air is thinner, plus he got a tiny taste of the Ultra Divine Water (maybe a Power Level increase of 1 or something). Also, I choose to believe he trained at least a bit on his own during those 3 years.
24:15 I believe Piccolo's weights bring him down by a percentage, not by a solid number. In the Raditz fight, his weights bring him down to around 78.9% (let's round and say it's 80%). 80% of 294 would be around 232. Additionally, it's worth mentioning that Piccolo was actually going easy on Krillin to avoid killing him, and he was caught off-guard with how crafty Krillin can be.
It’s funny. I’ve always found Goku supposedly being at a power level of 10 as weird.
Goku was trained by Gohan, the fourth strongest being on the planet for like 7 years, and you’re telling me he’s only 5 points stronger than a farmer with a shot gun? That implies that had Goku not got Gohan’s training ( again fourth strongest guy on the planet), he could have very well been at a power level of 5 or lower.
That’s what led me to believe that being a saiyan on its own doesn’t make you that much stronger than your average human. The thing that I head cannoned was that the main difference was your average adult Saiyan can manipulate ki, which they can use to manipulate their strength and durability
yeah, but raditz was considered weak at 1200
Literally episode 2 we see an axe shatter against Goku's skull and we already know he's bulletproof before then, Goku is obviously not only twice as strong as farmer with a shotgun with these in mind, so power levels are not linear. Baby Goku is also especially weak for a Saiyan and with a power level of only 10 (or even less as a baby) he is expected to be able to eradicate all life on Earth with the simple 10x multiplier of Ozaru.
@@jarlbalgruuf2415 Tbf, that’s because Goku had ki. In DB, you can only train your body to a certain extent, without amplifying their bodies with ki they aren’t bulletproof as seen in super.
@@just_an_internet_explorer8038 everyone has ki, it's literally your life force and physical energy. If you work out and train then you are literally increasing your ki.
@@jarlbalgruuf2415 kind of. It’s described as
“THE LATENT POWER... IN YOUR BODY” and I was referring to the interview with Tori. You can only train your body to a certain level, amplify it with their latent power, ki is what makes them bulletproof.
the length people will go to before just admitting dragonball is incredibly inconsistent lol
1:45 no, you literally don't know lol toriyama himself is on record cosigning the daizenshuu
Why does he keep putting up a picture of jackie chun whenever he talks about master roshi?
/j
"POWER LEVELS ARE BULLSH**"
-Vegeta
Android 8 is probably stronger than Murasaki as he went to him to defeat Goku
Shocked to learn (or rather, remember, it's been a hot minute) the scouter was a thing in the OG Dragon Ball
hey I loved the video and found it really interesting