Solar Diversion A Waste Of Energy For Hot Water & Charging EV
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- Опубликовано: 18 июн 2024
- Charge your EV from your PV a waste of time? Have a hot water tank and your using your solar energy to heat it when you have a heat pump? It may be time to reconsider these products once marketed to a mass of customers on government FIT payments. Modern installed solar systems don't benefit from government incentives anymore to payback on these systems is all about increasing the payback you can make like changing how you think about solar export and import with Octopus energy you can import at 7.5p and export at 15p giving a 7.5p profit margin on your energy this for me says we should be exporting all we can during the day!
00:00 Need of solar Divert is dead
00:41 2 Main arguments against solar divert
01:52 Not getting good export?
02:58 Solar Battery EV, So Heat pump?
04:33 FIT Payments?
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The key is flexibility because tariffs are changing all the time. 4 years ago when we got solar and batteries it was all about maximising own use as export prices were hopeless. At this time Solar diverters were really beneficial. Now with Intelligent Go we’re exporting over 90% of our generation. The market and tariffs are going to keep developing so having all the tools to take advantage is a benefit.
Yep - I’m exporting a little *over* 100% of my generation.
About to switch out another house for an OI/flux system, and have them export more. Going to be far cheaper than their pitiful FIT
Lately atleast in Finland electricy prices has turned to zero or negative when there is lots of renewable energy available.
Yeah but I bet it is your nuclear that helps, or not? Then again Sweden also has part nuclear but there prices are not as cheap as in Finland lately, I do wonder…
@@lkrnpk I think new reactor pretty much replaced lack of Russian imports which helped stabilize electricity prices. But they've built a lot of wind power and now building lot of solar power so when's its windy or sunny the price of electricity drops low or goes even negative. So occasionally I've been paying for the power exports.
@@lkrnpk I think new reactor pretty much replaced lack of Russian imports which helped stabilize electricity prices. But they've built a lot of wind power and now building lot of solar power so when's its windy or sunny the price of electricity drops low or goes even negative. So occasionally I've been paying for the power exports.
Absolutely right, it annoys me when people say they are using 'free' solar energy, forgetting the fact they could be exporting it for15p/kwh.
Not everyone is in the same situation. We are on deemed export first phase. Even Octopus suggest it is not worth giving up deemed export for many. who knows what Octopus will pay per kWh next year.FIT is RPi linked, so we will stick our excess in the cars for a few more years.
In the same situation as you, 2011 FIT rate so am happy to put my excess solar into the car or hot water after the batteries are full😊😊😊@@gwenshannon3797
Good points made in this video Nick.
Tariffs will change over time but at the moment the best strategy (for me, at least) is to have batteries at 100% at 5.30am and export as much of the day's generation as possible.
Previously I was on Agile (loved the plunge pricing!) but in March switched over to Intelligent Go.
While May 2024 generation was down 14% on 2023 the export was up 95%.
I know it's only pennies but running a house and two EVs for a couple of quid a month is very satisfying.
Another way of looking at the hot water heater, heat pump vs thermal element, is by looking at the actual energy expenditure. A heat pump water heater generally only needs about 2kWh/day. A water heater heated by a thermal element generally burns 6-8 kWh/day or more. So just as he says in the video, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to burn excess solar on the less-efficient thermal element.
What we are looking for is a worthwhile "dump" for excess solar. And there are a couple of ways of looking at this... with and without batteries.
WITH BATTERIES:
When you have batteries the equation is simple... add battery storage such that the best solar day still can't fill the battery up from 25% to 100% in a single day. Save excess energy still in the battery as-of when the utility goes off-peak for the next day.
Then a little automation, if the tariff allows, to dump excess energy from the battery such that you target roughly 25% SOC (state of charge) at the time the utility goes off-peak. That gets you ready for the next day.
Pretty simple, yes? But it really depends on the utility allowing you to dump the battery into the grid rather than simply dumping excess "live" solar into the grid. Theoretically the energy in the battery came from the solar in the first place, but it depends on the regulations.
WITHOUT BATTERIES:
Without batteries excess solar is gonna go out to the grid, probably off-peak and maybe just hit the edge of the beginning of the on-peak window in the late afternoon before the solar goes awayt. So the question is, is there a "cheap" way to implement a dump for the excess solar during the day while off-peak to avoid exporting it off-peak? Without batteries?
* If cooling is available and desired, reduce the thermostat even more during the day to soak up more solar power, then raise it back up when the utility goes on-peak in the late afternoon, delaying the A/C start. This can save money but usually you don't have enough thermal mass in the house to delay the A/C start all the way to late late when the utility goes off-peak again.
* If heating is desired, raise the temperature a bit more in the early afternoon then drop it back down as the utility goes on-peak. This can save some money but not as much as I would like.
* if heating is desired, a more substantial solution would be to consider a sand battery or something similar in the air circulation system for evening and possibly even overnight operation. Mostly, though, you want to target the utility's peak period. If you can stave-off the furnace through that period, you are home free.
* Mine crypto. NO NO! I'm just joking. Mining crypto has really poor returns verses just pushing to the grid. Don't mine crypto.
* Well, I would say "add batteries" but this section is for "without batteries" so... is there a poor-man's solution involving batteries that doesn't require anything fancy?
--
It turns out there are other options that involve batteries but don't involve any exporting or interactions with the utility. But to really make it work they have to be DC options. When you use AC-DC to charge a battery and then you discharge it into an inverter (DC-AC) to make AC again, the inefficiencies stack and it's usually not a win.
So one possibility is to have a relatively big battery like an EG4 LL (5kWh) that you charge with excess solar off-peak (either directly or via an AC charger during the peak of the day), then discharge the energy into a DC appliance such as a DC-powered mini-split to reduce the home's furnace burden during peak hours. A power station could be used for this but power stations are fairly over-priced and inefficient for the amount of storage you really want to have to make something like this work.
There's one idea, anyway. Use batteries like toys where you charge them up normally and then use them to power a device, without doing anything fancy like trying to tie the battery into the home wiring or anything like that.
-Matt
I agree, especially the Zappi which is its raison d'etre as far as I can work out it doesntt have anything esle going for it AFAICS, and its ugly and huge.
I decided not to get a hot water diverter because even prior to the new export rates it was marginal for me, now with export its a lost cause let alone with heat pumps.
I am now independent of the grid if I want to be. I have solar and a big battery storage system. I don't have a tank for hot water - instant hot water showers and taps. Having worked in the electricity and nuclear industry I concluded all tariffs are artificial and designed to keep people from going off grid. I never put energy back into the grid.
nailed it!! 👍and yes i'm one of those on a legacy deemed tariff, Just an additional note for the Fits 2011-2018 your deemed export can be changed after the fit has expired, or you can go on an export tariff and keep the fit on solar production within the time period on your fit scheme
Many thanks for your informative video. I’ve had my solar roof and batteries since October. I also decided to install a hot water diverter. I used it for about 3 months, and now I’m back to using gas for hot water. It’s really down to selling electricity at 15 pence and buying gas at 6 pence. Also the batteries discharge between 4pm and 7pm at 25 pence/kWh, and charge overnight at 14 pence. So much of what you said in your video resonates with me and my experience to date. I have plans to install a heat pump at some point, and you raise another interesting point there too.
Two massive flaws.....
1: if your solar / battery combo is a 'competent person' diy install, the cost and hoops to jump through to even start exporting aren't worth it, it's best to just increase the size of the battery or divert to the thermal store saving gas cost instead etc.
2: The price of a professional battery install of a reasonable size (15kWh+) currently in the UK + solar is so huge that the buyback period is higher than 10 years! By this time the battery is probably nearing half capacity!
You lucky people over there in the UK! Here in NZ, we are lucky to get 6.5p equivalent from our suppliers for fee in tariff. Octopus have arrived in the country but don’t offer supply to our area and not the same tariffs available to you.
Will depend on your rates, here in Australia our feed in is 95% of the time is less than even you off peak, ie going rate for off peak in by State NSW is around 19 Cents per KW and feed in is usually 5-7 Cents a KWH so for us it makes sense. I divert using a Shelly with Home Assistant and it paid itself off in 12 months.
I agree with your reasoning as my solar system was bought 5 years ago when the battery would have cost more than the entire 3.25 KWp installation (type N panels, each with a solar optimiser), but things have moved on considerably since then.
However, the EDDI unit has reduced gas consumption by 2,000 units per year and, as I also have small EV, I consume nearly all power generated on-site so I don't feel too hard done-by.
But were I to move to a new property, I would have the full works along the lines of your own system!
There’s an assumption that tariffs will always be the way that they have now become. Especially OIG (7.5/15), however on Octopus Go and any number of tariffs where the 7.5p offset doesn’t exist, solar diverters make sense.
If having an install from scratch, solar divert car chargers are a no brainer if you have solar and an immersion diverter is an option. You could always install a timed spur on your immersion anyway to save a few bob.
I'd never export any power I could be using for myself. Exporting power makes sense till there is a power outage and then you cant charge your vehicle or heat your water.
I agree that solar diverted should not be worthwhile. However I have been trying to get Octopus to give me an export tarrif since December. I am now trying the ombudsman to sort this. Hopefully this will be sorted out soon. I am on octopus intelligent and have a battery ,ev ans solar and hopefully a heat pump next month. Thanks for your channel encouraging me to follow along your path.
Cheers Andrew Scotland
Good video and one of the few I've seen that acknowledge that for current setups and tarrifs they are pointless, but there are situations when they make sense. I've got one of those odd setups, i don't own my panels (council owned) so can't benefit from the export tarrif. So, use it or lose it.
Longer term i guess it depends if export tarrifs remain higher than off peak import prices.
I'm looking at arranging solar shortly, the original plan was to install an EDDI. However as I've found that a couple of electricity providers are now offering 15 Pence to export, I've decided to dump the diverter plan and save about £800 in the process.
We've also ordered an EV, but that will be charged on a cheap night rate, so again there's no point in charging that from excess solar.
Feeding in at 15 Pence per unit, and consuming energy for heavy drain items at night rate makes perfect sense, and reduces the payback period by several years.
Looks like the UK is quite a bit behind the curve in this regard. In many countries in Europe there's so much PV over production around the daily peak now that you get almost nothing for exporting. I'd get barely half for the kWh of electricity exported than what the kWh of gas I'd otherwise need to heat the water costs. If you install PV without at least making sure you can easily add water heating, storage batteries or an EV charger, you'll bite yourself in a few years when the UK catches up with what can be seen elsewhere now.
Interesting nick 🤔, but i cant get any FIT from octopus as my system was a self build ( with a sparky mate who is very very knowledgeable ) so no stupid MCS certificate, so i cant get any financial export tarriff, as they need a MCS cert, and if id gone with a MCS aceddited installation it would have been £4500/5000 MORE to install. 😉
So im very happy to keep ALL 'my energi ' ( see what i did there ?) and use myself.
If i do start to 'dump' onto the grid, i call my neighbours to plug in their EVs for free , as id rather give it away to them 😉
Like others have said in the comments, i like the flexability with myenergi diverters etc and with regular power cuts here in Orkney , being totally off grid , means i can if needed keep heating my hot water and charging my ev in a power outage.
With intelligent flux the inverter output is 100% used by the immersion heater or exported to the grid. So the cost is 1p/ unit
I'm on Intelligent Go and I've gone a step further an even prevent my battery from recharging from solar during the day. This saves round trip conversion losses and means I typically export another few kwh a day, and still don't use any peak electricity.
Correct at the time of publishing. Tariff rates will change, will 15p remain? Also need to account for cost of your battery. Cost divided by lifetime throughput can be as much as 5p/kWh or more.
PV+Oil+Wood! New 12/15/30 PV-Isle. Old Viessmann Heating Oil Burner with 4000 Liter Tank(for dark, semi-nuclear Winter days😎). Wood Stovein Livingroom. 🤗 Redundance is the magic Word.
I use a solar diverter to heat a Night Storage heater in the living room so is always warm for our evening relax, the battery charges automatic from a sensing CT clamp on the solar to the AC coupled Battery inverter/charger, Zappi looks after the car
Why not export it...
Sorry, pressed send by mistake. From previous comment, cost is the same directly from the inverter. If you store in the battery there is some losses I think, then when you re invert to ac there is up to 10% (guess) losses. So it’s more expensive to use the battery
The FIT deemed export is a tricky one it kind of depends on how much you actually export. At the moment it's easy you should probably witch to metered export at 15pkWh but when and if energy prices normalise that 15p is likely to reduce.
With my 1.85kW PV array my export was well under 50% however I had a second PV system installed with 3.6kW of panels which I would get paid nothing for export so for me it easily made sense to switch to Octopus Outgoing.
They are pointless with the current tariffs.
I charge home and car batteries at night (plus immersion heater) on GO and then export whatever spare solar I have the next day for 1p per kWh less than I bought it overnight.. This might not be the optimum tariff / set up but I don't have to think about it. These diversion bits of kit will take forever to pay back
If you can get any tariff where your export rate is better than your off peak all these diverters instantly become a complete waste of money.
At the moment my export isn’t set up so I’m dumping all my excess into the car, but the moment I get my mpan and it’s set up I’m going to work on exporting as much as possible and running charging etc overnight
I heat my domestic hot water primarily with water filled solar panels, which are 90% efficient. Top up with cheap rate electricity and Eddi solar divert. For heating and cooling the house I use an air air heat pump (much cheaper to install and maintain than one that works with radiators and does AC), I charge my car primarily using cheap rate. My net energy bill is 20€ a month, no gas.
Certainly with prices as they are at the moment a solar diverter is not necessary but the current price for electricity is far higher than it should be so the picture could change quite quickly, and while my iBoost was not replaced when it failed as I felt my Powerwall made it unnecessary (I am on the last of the FIT and currently get paid 8.1p for every kWh produced) a Zappi car charger is very helpful to use Intelligent Octopus Go and is a great solar diverter should that be required again.
I am on a late fit tariff and recently switched to metered export to do exactly what you say. However if the export payment got reduced to say match my night rate then it wouldn’t be worth exporting. Time will tell?
It's all down to the tariff. Last year I was trying to make use of every kW of generated power from my system into a single battery, hot water via an Eddi & into an EV & avoided anything going back to the grid because I wasn't getting paid for it. Earlier this year Octopus finally approved our car & Zappi charger combo for use on Intelligent Go so now I hardly use the Eddi or try to charge the car during the day & send as much as possible back to the grid to earn extra credit on our account.
So in answer to your question, solar diversion is no longer necessary providing you have the right tariff with a decent export payment. I think our energy bill this month will less than zero due to the amount of export now possible during the warmer weather.
The key to a well designed solar power system is to know your year-round daily consumption, the solar power export market, and export limits that may be imposed. In many instances, a battery is not a good investment, especially the pricey name-brand batteries. I find that building a big solar power system and exporting XS solar power for 8 months of the year, then supplementing solar power with grid power over the winter months, gives the optimal financial outcome. But only by understanding your specific energy usage and the export market, can intelligent equipment purchasing decisions be made
I have both the Zappi and Eddi and am on Intelligent Octopus using the Zappi integration with Octopus and indeed now export all I can for 15p so have a very large export margin set to prevent any solar charging and heating, however what will happen in the future? If the generous export payments change I will again use excess Solar. With the Eddi and the optional relay board, this can control your heat pump and switch on your hot water or heating when there is excess solar available.
This is one of those issues that makes getting solar panels and batteries pointless. Last year I was told never export, now with Intelligent I should export, next year, who knows. 🤷♂️ These are long term 10-20 year investments, gambling real money. With interest rates as they are currently you’d be better off putting the money in savings or an ISA if you are a tax payer. £80 a month tax free and no risk.
The same argument can be made about interest rates… difference is you can use the solar even if not exporting there still a payback there so it doesn’t matter just my backpack is reduced now I can export for more
@@NicolasRaimoThis is true and you can be assured that the moment interest rates drop I’ll look at it again but for the moment the guaranteed returns in interest seem to beat the theoretical returns from solar. Thank you for your reply. 👍
For now there is a shortage of solar power in the UK so Octopus are paying relatively generously for export. Once a load of grid-scale solar has been connected to the grid (5 years time?) this will cease. At which point having smart devices that can divert solar and also heat water during times of surplus (cheap electricity) will be very useful.
I think your find it will just shift to type of TOC deal where there ask for export later on for HIGHER payments meaning charging the battery in your home and exporting to the grid will make even more money
@@NicolasRaimo Absolutely. But how much battery will people have?
How many people are going to invest in huge batteries in their home, beyond what they need for self-consumption in the winter? I would have thought this would end up being a commercial enterprise. That said, peak-time premiums (in and out) will remain for households.
my rule is simple. 3.6kw solar, 5kwh battery, heat pump and EV. if night rates are less than 15p on octopus agile, I simply charge the battery to 100% and discharge from 4PM which even allowing for a day like today covers cooking etc instead of at 32p/kwh. As you say Nick when you get paid 15p to export it is stupid to do anything other than export once you have consumed the days needs. Today generated 28kwh of energy and exported 20kwh of that.
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Hi Nick, I have 4,5kW oif Solar, 10kW of battery and an EV. Daily avg use is 4.5kW. I'm already on Octopus Agile, using my battery to manually charge during late night to 40-60% depending on time of year. Should i consider switching tarrif? Love to chat with you abot this at Fully Charged North this coming weekend. Thanks
It depends some are better off other way round others not
Can I just clarify something - what Octopus tariff offers 7.5p import and 15p export? Intelligent Go allows you to charge your EV at 7.5p per kWh but you don't get anything for export. Octopus intelligent flux allows you to export at variable rates but the export value is the exact same as the import value. There's a new tariff called Outgoing Fixed Lite, which is specifically for customers on Intelligent Go, and that offers 8p export.
Octopus Intelligent Go offers 7.5p import offpeak and you can get octopus outgoing when on intelligent that offers 15p export... I believe your mudding up GO and GO intelligent.
"Right now, you can’t be on Octopus Go together with Outgoing Fixed or Agile Instead, we’ve created a great export option just for Octopus Go customers. On Outgoing Fixed Lite, you’ll export power at a rate of 8p / kWh." GO is import of 9p offpeak not same as intelligent
@@NicolasRaimo Thanks for that. The options on the website aren't the clearest.
I'm going to have to give them a call and explore this option.
Right now I'm on Intelligent Flux, which is great if the weather is nice. I tend to switch back to Intelligent Go in the winter months but with the unpredictability of the weather (even in summer) I'm wondering if I'm better off on Intelligent Go all year round.
And, if I can get 15p export whilst charging up my battery for 7.5p overnight then that'd be even better.
This advice may be relevant if your primary goal is financial gain from your system. For others it is about minimising the carbon intensity of over all consumption. In this case exporting low carbon generation to possibly import higher carbon generation later on is counter to the goal.
That’s if importing later is higher carbon, infact exporting could be lowering the grid co2 for everyone and importing later better overall co2 reduction for the planet 🌍 agile tracks signals just like this for import and export
Not viable for people like myself who do not use electric vehicles and currently running off-grid. Even being in the UK, which is not the most favourable zone on the planet for solar, I am wasting an average of 200 kWh per month and this is why I'm going to install an electric boiler to start with, build and add another 16kWh battery to the existing 21k pack and finally build a sand based thermal energy storage. Of course, I have considered Octopos having the grid available here but they don't seem to give us those benefits because I'm not using EVs.
How can I cancel my FiT contract and move to Octopus Export ?
There is a way of doing so try asking on facebook solar group
Why would you still charge battery with solar? Surely better to export and charge battery overnight on cheap tariff
Charge it offpeak export it peak
Use a home battery system is still a win.
What happens when there is a power outage at night? Then you spent a bunch of money on solar and batteries that are useless because you were looking at it from a financial point of view instead of a security point of view. I dont get why anyone would look at solar and batteries that way. They should be an insurance policy.
@@pin65371 not had a power cut that lastest longer than 4 minutes for more than 10 years and that one lasted an hour and was mid day…
@@NicolasRaimo if you feel comfortable assuming that it can never happen then do what you want. I would prefer to not take that gamble for a couple of dollars. Solar and batteries are an insurance policy. Not an investment opportunity..
Do people really need a hot water tank these days when there are so many other ways to heat water without all that pipe work , im having Air to Air and heat pump i had the old tank removed when i had a combi boiler fittet 6 years ago i dont have a bath anymore so i shall have two under sink warter heaters for bathroom and kitchen ,
Air to Water heat pumps qualify for government £7500 grant these use cylinders still for hot water and the heat pump is FAR cheaper way to heat that body of water than the heaters you mentioned your see a come back of cylinders this year
Would you go as far as exporting all of your solar and running the house off the battery during the day? Or does the extra cycling of the batteries not make it worthwhile?
Battery is there for payback why worry about cycling if battery pays for it self faster? And within warranty period
I can see the benefit of charging the battery from off peak grid and not solar, but deliberately discharging the battery during the day to allow export of solar I don’t think adds up. 7.5p + battery inefficiency + cycling the battery more so shortening the life comes to about the same as you’d get paid for the export.
You have only one problem in the UK: you are way behind on progress.
Peak solar excess energy costs money to deliver to the grid in the Netherlands.
Anything you can store locally in batteries (any type) during peak hours is money earned. Later you can sell anything you have stored in your batteries to the grid if you like.
But mostly you are talking about a major LAG in the UK where next day hour prices does not seem to exist yet.
Once you have next day hour prices, you can help the grid/community and your own wallet at the same time.
If you can't get access to export tariffs then dumping solar into wayer when battery and car is full is your only choice
Or run cryptocurrency miners
Also Eon Next Drive v3 offers 7hrs at 6.9p & 16.5p export rate beating Octopus Intelligent 6hrs at 7.5p & 15p export rate.
Eon peak rate is more than Octopus, but then if you have solar you are not drawing much from grid during daytime.
Also Eon Next Drive is not fussy about car or charger, demanding certain chargers like Ohme to get onto Octopus Intelligent 7.5p rate. You can get 6.9p on Eon with just a granny charger at a pinch
(Handy if you haven't got a grand for an Ohme to be installed)
Octopus can allow some PV installs to export without a MCS certificate (self install), but not a guarantee to all self installs.
Also - the DNO may have capped your export to 7.2kW (32a) or much less depending on location/phase balancing, or 3.68kW (16a) if G98.
In certain circumstances - yes solar diversion is still viable, but often if possible it is wiser to export as much as possible
I'm not on commission for Eon, (there's no ref link, have a look yourselves), but I was about to switch to Octopus, but when I saw Eon just lowered their prices for v3 Next Drive, I decided to stick with Eon (for now)
Unless Octopus want to up their game & review their rates, I'll stay with Eon, fixed for 12 months, but no exit fee & gas is a bit cheaper too for people still using it like me
No solar system is completely pointless. I use octopus agile as I can’t install solar in my Appartement.
My solar system reason agile is cheap ;) my current monthly bill is £2 with ev charging due to my solar
Your argument is only valid if you have a BEV as this gives access to the lower night rates. Non BEV tariffs have very similar import and export rates so the question then becomes ‘Is it better to use the solar rather than export?’. This will be depend on set up but usually it is more efficient to use the solar energy rather than export as this reduces inherent energy losses which can be between 6-10%. Also, how concerned for the stop burning stuff campaign you are being. To heat the water with gas is always going to be cheaper with existing tax structures which penalise the use of electricity.