Is Fire Emblem Engage's Story Really BAD?! Full Story and Character Analysis and Discussion w/ Blue
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- Опубликовано: 27 июн 2024
- Time for the moment of truth, a full hour long discussion with my friend Blue about the specifics of the story, the characters, the support conversations and the villains of Fire Emblem Engage and whether or not it's good.
Check Out Blue's ASMR stuff here:
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Timestamps:
0:00 Intro and Spoiler Warning
1:09 Discussion Starts
51:00 Final Thoughts and Closing Statements
#engage #switch #fireemblem #story #podcast 
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As much as the community loves her, I do think Yunaka is one of the best characters in the game. Her backstory of being raised as an assassin by her surrogate father leading her to have this bubbly personality around people to try and compensate for it. But it's not how she ever actually feels, it's a mask she has to put on because she thinks she has to or else people won't like her. Obviously (hopefully) none of us are past assassins trying to put our past behind us, but the feeling of having to lie about who you are is to try and fit in with the people around you is, i think, a universal experience that everybody understands. She even wants to set up an orphanage so that no children have to end up like she did.
Except that's not a mask, that *is* Yunaka, or at least who Yunaka wants to be. She was raised as an assassin but doesn't want to be an assassin, and that doesn't mean she's going to stop. It's pretty difficult to just erase the ugliness of your past no matter how hard you try, but she's made peace with it. She accepts what she did and her upbringing, and she's bubbly cause she wants to be. She's one of the best characters for sure simply because she's written with depth.
It is a mask though. In her C support with Fogado when he approaches her with the offer to a party and she asks why she would want to do that, after he turns away she says "He came at me so fast I forgot to put my act on! I better fix this fast. He'll expose the real me if I don't.". It's not that the true her is the killer, it's that she is overcompensating with the ultra bubbly personality when the real her is in the middle of the two.
@@javgamer722 For real. People who think her extroverted bubbly-persona is her real self didn't pay attention to half the stuff she says.
Yunaka îs garbage as a character
5:00 Alear was always a good person but was placed into an abusive situation where they had to be evil. When you fight evil Alear it is never stated they liked doing what they're doing, it's always I must do this or else I will be killed by the corrupted. Dragon mom is their way out of the control of their abusive father. It's also why present Alear is afraid of corrupted, they have PTSD.
Yeah, I found Alear to be ok. As much I really don’t like some of the characters praising Alear to kingdom come, Alear themselves aren’t terrible and one of the only sane people in the game. They’re around the middle in terms of Avatars. And past Alear is kinda tragic and made me wish we got more of them Past Alear has so much potential
Maybe. It would have been nice if we had played through that. The story is absolute garbage, and they try to fill in the gaps with pure exposition. For a video game, that is really pathetic
Nobody wanted to be a “fell dragon”. Sombron was killing any of them that were deemed “defects”. Alear was always good, and was clearly very traumatized in the time travel chapter
Yeah, Alear in the past is so dead inside, they showed less emotions, than byleth.
You are writing the story for them here. It's not very well shown. In my opinion the better story would have been to play through the background stuff because that is way more interesting than the story
@@buddylord3020 What do you mean writing it for them? The game literally says what this comment said explicitly.
Also Lumera being nice to them was their very first experience of anybody ever showing them kindness
@@grimaa It's the first time we hear real emotion from them, and the first time we see them give the very same smile they're known for in the present. I think it's a great touch.
My biggest issue is that many of the characters leave a horrible first impression. Many of them have a one note trait or fanboy to the divine dragon. The retainers barely do anything other then be a yes man to their lord. Many come off as annoying or boring since they don’t get a chance to flesh out their character. Sure there are supports but it’s so tedious and some of these supports are even more un engaging since they either talk about a trait about themselves or it’s just highlight their quirky trait. Like Celine has a great support unfortunately it’s locked behind A support and the first two all she does is talk about tea which makes her feel that’s her only trait when she has other interesting things. It’s the reason why I feel many people hated the character and story it’s just not interesting and the characters don’t do anything that seems worthwhile especially since the game is kinda of predictable on how the story is gonna go.
In the past, Alear‘s loyalty to Sombron was only based on Sombron killing his children, whenever they made a mistake or in some way displease them. Preferably by letting them be ripped apart by corrupted. Alear wanting to appease him was purely for survival. They were an abused child, trying to appease their abuser, until Lumera showed them a way out. What more reason would they need for wanting to be „a good Dragon“?
The only reason, why Sombron isn’t as harsh on Veyle is, that he ran out of kids. Veyle herself didn‘t experience this trauma, because she was too young, when Sombron was sealed away.
A lot of comments keep saying this, but I still think if Alear was truly so deathly afraid of sombron it would've taken more than a single two second long conversation for Alear to consider breaking free or betraying him. Everyone seems to want to defend this whole "Alear is an abuse victim" narrative but honestly if thats the intent of the story its done so horribly and isn't given even remotely the proper thought or respect an issue like that deserves. its something the game (barely) tells you and never shows you. Alear never even once shows any realistic signs of being mentally affected by abuse or any lasting subconscious issues with domestic relationships or trust. Like, yes they're afraid of the undead. Okay? Thats...a really normal fear that multiple other fire emblem characters had in the series before this. Alear's closest thing to showing a learned helplessness or a fear of sombron himself is when the rings are lost before chapter 11, and even then it isn't shown as a trauma response or having to do with sombron, its because of their bond with marth. You could argue Alear suffers from extreme self-doubt and maybe thats related to sombron, but even then that doesn't make any sense in regards to the "traumatized child" angle, as they were more-or-less the only fell child skilled enough not to be killed by sombron.
Much like everything else in the game its something mentioned once for two seconds and then really isn't expanded upon in a meaningful way. "running out of kids" is also kind of a strange notion considering he literally had a woman offering to bear him more children and he said no because...reasons?
Anyway if you're looking for an interesting character who started out with evil beliefs but came to question them and grow, even to the point of being willing to fight family to the death, Jill from fe9 is already right there and is 10 times the character alear could ever be. all of this is my own opinion though, obviously.
@@Namingway248 I didn‘t say, the execution was perfect. It would probably have been better, if Alear showed a bit more signs of their trauma than their fear of corrupted, breaking through the amnesia. Their Amnesia protects them. However, that doesn‘t apply to past Alear, who was so dead inside, that they showed less emotions than Byleth.
I think, the basic idea with Lumera is, that she found them laying in the snow and were the first person to show them kindness, which made Alear wanting to get in contact with her. It is to note here, that it is stated, that past Alear did have multiple conversations after that, so their turn wasn‘t one conversation, that was just the first spark.
Also about Veyle, Sombron did try to get rid of her, the second he was fully awakened. He didn‘t tolerate her being a „defect“, her being the only one just made her enough valuable to him, that he tried the brainwashing approach. A new child would take years to grow up enough, to be useful.
@@Namingway248 Uh, Past Alear shows a _lot_ of very, _very_ realistic abuse symptoms, speaking as someone who's friends with people who've suffered parental abuse and control. Like, the depiction of Past Alear's symptoms is enough to be a trigger for some of my friends. Present Alear also awakens with amnesia, which protects them from their trauma until they have bonds strong enough that the memories can't hurt them anymore. …And even Present Alear awakens with some limited signs of their abuse. They are initially reserved and emotionally stunted, and take some time to fully recover from that. They don't really recover until after meeting and duelling Lumera. It's Lumera's _death_ that finally properly unlocks Alear's emotions again, and the support of their friends helps them keep positive emotions as well as negative ones.
@@FlameUser64 I have no intent to disparage or invalidate others' cases of abuse, but as someone who also has gone through similar and knows the tropes of Fire Emblem well, I still think Alear could do better at depicting that, and I don't think the writers were actually trying to depict that. The emotional stunting and reservations of past Alear are something the series uses as a trope, and has applied to just about any character who is forced to do something bad but doesn't want to. Micaiah portrays these same feelings (and is made to deal with realistically unfair consequences) when she's forced to do awful things in radiant dawn, yet even then its due to forced circumstances rather than any kind of abuse response. which furthers my point that "this is the character's trauma response" isn't fire emblem's intended implications for those character traits, the intended implication is "this character may be doing bad now but they are actually good."
Even though many people (including myself) often forget what trauma has happened to them, your brain still has made neural connections and pathways to try to protect itself. these will manifest as acting out or behaviors/concerns that others may not view as normal. Just because Alear has amnesia, that doesn't mean they wouldn't still have a large amount of maladaptive tendencies. by the time we see past alear they look already grown up, implying they've spent their entire developmental years and more only learning detachment and violence. Contrast this to Yunaka, a character in the same game desperate to change from her old life. Yunaka struggles greatly to break from her old habits and become the person she wants to be, yet Alear is shown almost instantly to be able to forge bonds and trust others around them. Even if Alear doesn't remember, they would still realistically show moments of being off or effected by something in the way Yunaka does. There is never a moment I can think of in supports or the majority of the story where it feels like Alear just suddenly starts shutting people out or reacts overly violently. it just doesn't happen. On occasion they may be at a loss for words or try to be distant in a formal sense, but not in any way that even remotely came off as being due to any kind of upbringing issues. All things considered, its actually ridiculous how aware of social faux pas and norms Alear is. before the game, its implied a limited amount of time with Lumerra was the only experience they had talking to someone who wasn't a violent warlord. Nothing about their life should lead to the extremely gregarious attitudes Alear constantly displays.
Really though, the biggest thing for me is Fire Emblem DOES have characters who 100% are meant to represent abusive upbringings and the way it harms someone. Katarina and Clarisse's entire plot relevance in new mystery revolves around the fact they were taken in as children and manipulated. Katarina clearly likes Kris and her other friends in Marth's army, but her abuse causes her to abandon them, causes her to even try to kill them. Kris has to reach out multiple times, while under attack from her, to finally make her believe a better life alongside them is possible.
"The truth is, I don't care about you"
"If that were true, why are you crying?" is an exchange I've never forgotten. Katarina wants to be better, she wants to be good, she wants to break away from her abuser, just like Alear. but she's spent her entire life thinking it wasn't possible, just like alear. Kris didn't just say "lets have tea and talk sometime" and Katarina didn't just say okay. There were barriers, years of pain, to be broken through. She's the only character in the series who needs to be talked to three times to be recruited, showing through gameplay the depth of her trauma and detachment. Even after that, Katarina isn't just some super social and nice person for the rest of the game, its clear she thinks Kris is the only one who'd really accept her, and keeps distant from others. and again, for reasons I already stated, I don't think "oh well Alear forgot" really works as an excuse for the game not to show anything even remotely like this. Katarina is a character entirely shoe-horned into a pre-existing story, she isn't in the original fe3. Alear is a main character. I expect better, and I know the series is capable of better.
I do want to say at the end here, if you like Alear, or feel a personal connection with them, thats perfectly fine. Ultimately its my opinion and my interpretation of the media that Alear could be better. Abuse is often a deep and personal thing, so if Alear is an important character that some people going through it feel connected to, I'm glad they can see something in the character that I personally didn't feel the writing gave me.
@@Namingway248 See like, I kinda get what you're saying re: Alear not being hostile enough for someone who's only had a single person to trust. …But we also don't know how long she was with Lumera, and at the time she even got the closure of cutting Sombron down for everything he did to her. _Plus_ we know Lumera has quite a bit of skill when it comes to psychological healing and such, since she deliberately and directly prepared Alear to have the will to fight even her, should it be necessary. Alear comes across like someone who's been through a lot and learned a lot from it. She's the kind of well-adjusted you only get after going through it and emerging on the other side. That's part of what makes me relate to her. And the other part is that a lot of what she says in supports are things that advocate for "sin". She effectively tells Seadall to live for pleasure, because joy will fuel his dance better than ironclad discipline. She tells Prince Diamant, crown prince of a nation that abhors weakness, that showing vulnerability isn't always a bad thing.
While Celine and Alfred aren't that important in the story, I believe some of their supports are the best in the game.
*SPOILERS*
In Celine's supports with Alear/Alcryst/Afred we find out that Alfred was very sick when he was younger and that he wasn't predicted to live on. Although he was able to fight his illness, Celine is still traumatized from that and has many supports where she still dreams that he'll die and that she'll have to rule Firene alone. She also mentions not wanting to feel happiness because she doesn't know when it will come again. Also, she mentions how cold she has to be as a ruler since she may eventually inherit the throne one day when Alfred dies. I think her love of tea is definitely a distraction for her to not think about her brother's illness and potential early death. Furthermore, if you don't S Support Alfred, you find out that he indeed does die early after becoming King in his epilogue
I definitely missed these because I also just didn't really use them as characters enough to unlock their supports, but yeah, they could've definitely used some more main story integration that was actually meaningful
@@LinkKing7same, I wish they had better story integration cause I think Celine is one of the most interesting characters in Engage cause of her backstory! And yea I didn't use them much either but I just kept spamming the and activities with them and their support partners
i kinda want to kill alfred and diamant and see if celine and alcryst change their dialogues since the nightmare became true since alcryst also have a nightmare about his brother dying because their father was... if your brother and I die during the war it will be responsability to protect out people
@@Chichaetomate Both Alfred and Diamant show up until the ending, so they're one of those units that are protected from permadeath across the story (e.g. they "retreat" instead of dying).
I really wish that could have been alluded to more in the story with Alfred. Maybe give him a moment of the boat where the sea travel is roughing him up and someone in this game gets a character moment to just talk so the main plot is entirely "Rings, royals, Sombron, Hounds, rings, Sombron, rings, go, go, go!"
Sad backstories aren’t always there to make you sympathize with a villain, sometimes they’re just there to explain, so you have an understanding of why they are they way they are
Sombrom is irredeemable as a person, but it was still nice to see why he was that way he was
That really my only argument in support of the story, I still think it was very poor handled
In the case of Sombrom, Zephia, and Griss, I thought it was just a lazy attempt to make them seem tragic. Especially in Griss’s case.
@@Mojo1356 Sombron's is awkward, and Griss's is kinda just okay, but the hints for who Zephia is and how she got that way have been there from pretty much her first appearance.
@@FlameUser64 Griss’s just felt out of character.
Reminds me of Citrinne's line, "There is tragedy to your tale, but you've earned no sympathy".
shadows of valentia has a really good story
I found the four hounds lore dumps so funny since these were the non party characters we spend the most time with and they just like forgot to develop them until like after they were dead.
No, no they gave hints earlier. You can see so much of it beforehand. So many of their interactions are foreshadowing, but you won't realize it until you see their ending development and have flashbacks to all the hints. I think Zephia is handled the worst in that most of the things that tell you how she got to be who she is are things you learn after her death. …But now that I think about it, I think they did that to avoid moral ambiguity. You are _right_ to hate her and everything she stands for, through the entire game, and they don't want to muddle that message. Afterward, you can see the things that happened to make her the way she was in life… but they don't change that she deserved the conviction with which you hated her. That she deserved _every_ moment of rage and scorn you felt towards her. That everything she did was evil and wrong. Your hatred was deserved. She earned it with her actions, and her painful history doesn't change that. If they'd told you about her history during the game, you might feel regret at having to face her. Alear might feel regret at having to face her. By saving it for after, they can ensure you hold your conviction until her end, just like Alear does.
Normally, people view moral ambiguity in stories like this as a good thing… but here, the lack of moral ambiguity is the point. Zephia's death may be regrettable, in the sense that you should mourn her suffering, mourn the loss of the person she maybe could have been under better circumstances… but the hatred you felt towards her for her actions was real, and it was justified. She needed to be stopped, and your conviction and anger made that possible.
I really enjoyed this podcast style video. I personally think Engage writing made so many beginner writers mistake that it's surprising it's a triple A game. I'm glad some people like it, but there is a lot of unconventional writing that avid readers will be critical about.
Alear was always a good person and so is Veyal they just want to be themselves and escape from Sombron's abuse. For Veyal specifically she mentions her mother giving her a mission to stop Sombron, but being too scared on Sombron to do what needed to be done.
Alear should have died end of ch 21. Ch 22 we play as Veyle and she summons the evil emblems. End of ch 22 the miracle thing happens making Alear an Emblem with no body same as the other emblems we still run around somniel as Alear but Alear no longer has a body so they can’t be used as a unit. Make Alear an emblem that can only be used by Veyle or an s supported unit(make this before ch 21). Story becomes a cool message about passing the torch and a bad upbringing not defining your future as Veyle kills Sombron with emblem Alear in a cool cutscene. Roll credits. Also just let Marni be discount Metodey and not give her any redeeming qualities at all.
Veyle can't summon emblems.
Honestly, SOMEONE should've died and stayed dead, I agree, an Alear death would've been interesting but you'd have upset the gameplay people who invested in him and the already incoherent story would've been even weirder because of how the emblems work. I would've loved Alear to die though, still waiting on an FE game to completely kill off the main character and have them lose
@@123christianac I know she can’t summon them, but this could have been changed in this ending I wish happened
I agree it would have been unfortunate losing the investment but honestly I think it would have been worth it for a unique story. Also they’re only lost for four chapters, but if we cut the dumb time travel thing we can just defeat Zephia and griss in ch 23 and Sombron ch 24. You wouldn’t be missing Alear that long. They can even refund all SP Alear had when they died as skill books to be used on other units.
@@LinkKing7 Tbh the only FE protag that had a canonical death is Sigurd and that's really saying something.
I just wanted to make a bit of a clarification on my discussion regarding Takumi’s character arc in Conquest since I think it made it sound like his insecurities are what drove him to become the final boss. I meant it more that I feel his inferiority complex is what made him vulnerable enough to become possessed in the first place which would then lead him to become the final boss later. But anyway, the argument is that this part of Takumi is more interesting in comparison to someone like Alcryst since it is more heavily tied with the overarching narrative.
Hopefully that makes more sense with the comparison. This is what happens when I go off script since it wasn’t in my notes.
Everything you said in this video was spot on, even down to holding the players accountable for lowering their standards. Bravo.
I really hated what they did to Alcryst. He and his brother are the only ones who aesthetically align with war, and it's painful to listen to either of them. I have a difficult time believing either of them would survive the battlefield the game pretends is happening and neither one of them exude the country mantra
@@everdash It's nice to hear people agreeing with me haha! Honestly I usually feel alone in my opinions since I tend to bring in a lot of hot takes.
Also I think my experience with other series has made me raise my personal standards for storytelling since I've seen what writers are capable of doing. I don't expect FE to churn out masterpieces but I wish the people in the fanbase who defend stories like Engage's understand that there are flaws and that just because it's "simple" doesn't mean we should accept those flaws.
I'm a firm believer in the idea that if you decide to make something simple, it better be done right because you have less room for error than you would in a complex story.
Thank you for saying this, seriously. Everything you've said in this video I totally agree with and its nice to know that it isnt just me and my brother who feel this way. I'd be interested to hear more of your thoughts on shadows of valentia. It's been a while since I played the game but I dont remember the story being nearly as bad as this one has been.
@@thethirdcommet Thank you! Hopefully Link and I can find some time to discuss all the stories like we mentioned. The only problem is I haven't played FE8 or watched a walkthrough of it so I don't have an opinion on it. I have a lot to say on SoV and I kinda mentioned it in another comment but there's several issues with how it paced its own narrative in certain sections (like Alm and Celica's relationship, and Berkut's "redemption" when reuniting with Rinea). That and I have a lot of grievances about how romantic relationships were handled since none of them felt believable to me. But that's a discussion for another day haha!
I'd like to see that tier list video, I think there are a lot of interesting things to say about how fire emblem stories and characters have changed over the years. Personally I've always thought the stories and characters of the gba titles get a bit overrated, but after engage I went back and saw how they were somehow significantly more believable as people. Like, you could classify neimi as "shy girl who cries easily" and yet she still has supports where she says and does other things, and she's a character who will admit in the final chapter she doesn't even have any business being a key part of your army.
I think it could be an interesting discussion for sure! It won't be for a couple weeks though since I'm trying to stick to my schedule I have laid out and I gotta keep catering the stuff the YT algorithm likes so they don't kill my channel
I'm going to disagee on Shadows of Valentia. It was a simple story, but effectively done, with good characters (except Faye).
Personally, I just want PoR style story telling though. It reached the right balance between story and gameplay.
Wasnt zephia a Mage dragon? 20:00 you mentioned she was a Fell dragon but I think she mentions she is a Mage Dragon with an affinity to time magic or something among those lines and she was also the last of her kind. Again- something out of story that has no background information either.
And she wants a child(or to have offsprings) but for her own reasons that it is not love, it was a weird cut scene of the past when you are almost in endgame- and looks for the strongest male to father her child. Which is Sombron. So it’s a more towards survival of the fittest type of mentality.
To me the evil side pushes a last moment backstory for everyone to at least say they tried but missed multiple opportunities to make a good backstory.
Correct. Believe they mixed elements from Sombron's backstory moment and her backstory moment. Granted, it's all very cliché and forgettable, so I don't blame them.
But yeah, Sombron was not the last of his kind. He was exiled from his world and was abandoned by his emblem. His goal then became finding his emblem again and eventually making it back to his world to wage war against the people who exiled him.
Zephia was a mage dragon and yes was the last of her kind.
I think this game makes me question the existence of the support system as the C-B-A structure. Like it feels like the support system chokes out most of the potential these narratives. It's always so hard to discuss supports with people when it's such a chore to read and unlock them all. It's probably the biggest hindrance to the series' ability to write good characterization. Fates and 3 Houses because they had multiple paths had the space to dedicate time to characterize them. properly.
I mean I love the Support System but one you looked deeper into it there really isn't a perfect answer. Like before anything else remember Supports affect gameplay, so there needs to be some kind of standardization. If you could play Sacred Stones with all Supports unlocked at once from the start it'd be laughable.
Path of Radiance already solved this through the base info conversations. I don't know why basic characterizations are locked behind hyper specific A supports. Alfred is not an interesting character unless you get one of I think 2 support conversations, then he can be an actual character instead of a walking, boring trope.
Multiple things i want to give my opinion on because why not
1. i'd say the reason why alear wanted to be a good dragon is because lumera showed them kindness
alear never wanted to be evil or bad they just had to follow sombrons orders or he would have killed them like the other siblings
so when lumera showes them kindness they don't want to hurt her and then they start talking
so it's pretty easy to guess how alear wanted to become a good dragon
2. for me it makes sense that alear is so effected by lumeras death too
like imagine you wake up and don't remember shit
the first people you meet are people that worship you and are in awe of you
but then comes lumera who imediatly hugs you and showes a different kind of affection and relashionship to alear
she calls alear her child and tells them that she loves them so of course even if alear doesn't remember it they will have a strong reaction to her death as she also died while protecting them from harm like do you expect alear to just stand there and be like ''oh yeah um thanks for saving me but i don't know you so your death is kinda meaningless to me'' the first and only person to show alear genuine affection just died while protecting them so of course the reaction is gonna be big
as for the player being effected by her death yes i agree that there wasn't enough time spend with her for the player to truly feel for her but like everyone with basic empathy will at least feel for alear and tbh i am sure they didn't intend for the player to be effected by her death same with morion they mostly want us to feel for his sons and not him
3. zephya stated multiple times that she sees the hounds as family but i do agree that that kinda doesn't really make sense if you look at her actions *cough* killing marni *cough*
4. for sombrons backstory i agree that they should have givin it to us sooner but i also think that they didn't want us to feel for him and more like so we at least know why he does what he does so it's more in the lane of ''nice motive, still a crime bro''
5. again for hyacinths death you are meant to feel for his children and even if we at first don't see the good side of him, ivy and hortensia do and there is no reason to not believe them and he was still their dad even if he has been shitty now
later when we fight resurrected hyacinth we get those lines of him regretting what happened and that he actually loved his children again giving us a better reason to feel bad for them
6. for the supports i have to say i enjoy them, yes they aren't the best and there are some that are very one note but i would say that most of them are fine, not good, just fine but i do have to say that i love all of louis supports and all of yunakas
7. i'd say overall the story isn't good and i also wouldn't call it bad because it's just a super standart cliche story and that's it
i personally enjoyed the whole game and i mean all of it there is actually only one character i legit don't like ( yes there are some i don't care about but at least i don't dislike them ) i like the story, i like the characters, i like the gameplay so for me all in all the game is good
i liked the video and your discussion but would have liked if you also invited someone that likes the game because like 80% of the vid was her saying why she doesn't like the game and you saying ''i agree'' so the vid was just overly negative
but still thank you for the nice content and keep it up
I agree, the video felt overly negative for something that wasn’t bad at all
"that kinda doesn't really make sense if you look at her actions cough killing marni cough"
Actually, that bit makes sense when you realize that she gets her idea of family from Sombron. Considering the fact that Sombron killed his children frequently for not living up to expectations, it makes sense that she would see killing Marni as a proper punishment for a disobedient child.
It's kind of hard to find people who like the genuinely like the story but yeah, I think it's definitely a full criticism of the game. Blue and I are very harsh when it comes to story and characters, she more than I for sure, so I can see why the discussion felt that way.
I DO like the game a lot don't get me wrong, it's just this part of it that I'm a bit bamboozled by tbh because if they got it right, it could've been SO much better!
Having said that, I think there won't be more criticism videos in the pipeline for a while, so the rest will be positive or at least mechanical discussions from here on out!
@@123christianac
okay yeah that's fair i agree
i just thought tht it's weird how she first kills marni and then afterwards we hear all about her wanting a family and that she loves all of them like come on
Who is the character you don't like?
I feel like Engages biggest issue plot wise is that it's not straight forward and simple in a fun way, it's just boring. I see it being compared to Tokusatsu in a "Fun, exciting and silly" sense and I can't disagree more. Stuff like Kamen Rider is way more compelling, batshit insane and fun than this. It's definitely near the bottom of narratives for me, only beating Fates because it doesn't try enough to be frustratingly incompetent and I guess FE6, since I at least remember the highlights of Engages story.
It's the kingdom of Firene as it had a king, but he died due to a plague that also hurt Alfred and now the queen is the sole ruler, you find about that on Celine supports, also why she is scared of losing her brother
Alear feels to me like a mix between Robin and Corrin. With child of both fell and divine dragons similar to the Hoshido Nohr Conflict, but following Robins story arc of working towards getting memories back and working towards designing strategies that can guarantee all his allies safety. Alear does have his own character arc and story beats that are unique to him but he does have the same feel as the previous avatars with the exception being Krys
So it's a minor thing but I really hate the comparison to Awakening, not just in the video but just in general, it's so surface level, like people just do not remember that story or the characters. Awakening was all about comparing and contrasting, Chrom was a "good" version of Gangrel, Walhart, even Grima, and Robin was the "good" version of Aversa, Excellus, and Validar. Engage never tries such a thing, like at all. Sombron isn't a reflection of Alear or Veyle or whoever, nor are the Hounds reflections or whatever. He's fundamentally opposed to them is what story that exists.
But besides that I do over all agree about how the pacing of, pretty much everything, really drags down the story and characters. I do not like the "gimmick" argument, I think Rutger, Soren, Owain, Niles, Caspar, and Etie are all gimmick characters, they are characters that are build on a gimmick, but beyond that they are completely different in every way. Soren's gimmick is him being the grouchy 'realist' that acts hostile to anyone except Ike, he is build around that just as much as Etie is build around muscles and flowers, the gimmicks aren't the problem. The fact that the Engage cast is paced around nothing but start and end with little to no middles is the issue.
Anyone that tries to claim Awakening or Fates characters didn't have depth are lying or don't know what they are talking about, even if they aren't to everyone's tastes. You don't have to like Tharja or Hinoka or whoever, but the characters still have depth despite that. But Seadall? Lapis? Louis? Maybe I'm missing it but I don't see it.
But I do find it funny how Alear is like the only sane character, which does make for some good laughs at times if nothing else. I'll still take this over Shadow Dragon which I maintain is a travesty of an FE story/cast.
I like Shadow Dragon. I can definitely understand why others dislike it but I think the conversations (though few) were well written and interesting to read.
Characters felt a lot more human and “raw” in support conversations in the older games. I was watching some FE7 and 8 supports recently and they just feel so much more normal/down to earth and varied in terms of what is being discussed, even within the same support chain. I did enjoy some support chains in engage but the gimmick overload was a bit much at times. It has been a while with some of the older games though, so maybe there are some characters just as gimmicky as what we see now but I can’t really recall that myself.
I also like to credit the older games, especially FE9 for having deeply, seriously flawed characters such as Shinon, Makalov and even Soren. I feel like FE doesn’t have the balls for stuff like that anymore and now it’s just “goofy” flaws that aren’t even broken down properly half the time. Then again, engage feels so goofy in tone that maybe it wouldn’t work, though they did try to make literal villains sympathetic, which is a step above sympathetic flawed allies, or maybe it isn’t…
Fe3h didnt have the balls?
@@fenrirfenris4608 I didn't mention it but 3H definitely had some (not goofy) flawed characters as well, which I was happy to see. Gilbert, Felix and Dimitri come to mind here especially, though with Felix I can only think of one instance of him actually saying/doing something problematic, so I can't as confidently categorize him. For me 3 houses was a big step up in, terms of what I am describing, from fates, engage and awakening to some extent as well. As mentioned in the video however, there were still quite a few trope-y annoying characters in 3H. I am not as knowledgeable on the 3 houses cast as some others however.
Honestly, 3 houses was a noticeable step up in regards to narrative and characters but this seemingly came at the cost of the gameplay taking a hit. Intelligent systems has made it clear time and time again, that they struggle to balance good story and gameplay via the games they release. In addition, they flat out admitted it in the engage interview, where they stated that the story was simplified as a means to focus on the tactical gameplay. I do not know why they are not capable of pulling off both at the same level of quality but that just seems to be how it is. I do like to see gameplay prioritized however, if such a choice has to be made.
@@AstraProc Ond of the main issues is factoring in permadeath. While sure most people reset or play casual and rewind now exists, they do kinda keep it in mind. But also not really cause FE has become much more character centric. Prime example is Three Houses, as you said, prioritized characters and it affected gameplay and plays like a JRPG more than a strategy game. Another being Fates where if you lose Orochi/Niles you lost your entire means of capturing units and there's less replacement units. There definitely is a middle ground somewhere, but the odds are stacked against the devs.
@@korinoriz I don't think perma death has anything to do with the point I am making. Perma death does lead to the majority of character's having no plot relevance but I was not discussing that.
For me Alear is an okayish MC they just really need more development or inportance on why they are what they are for the reason they wanted to be good is when they saw their future self and the trauma and anxiety of their siblings being killed and the pressure of failing and be killed, the blue hair from Lumera and future Alear is kinda the trigger for them to try to beckme a divine dragon as it seems to be more peaceful hence the reason to change, Also the story of the continent can be wayyy further develop like the reason why the 4 countries only have 1 season or why sombrom said they needed sovereign blood can be tied to like the royalties have the blood or blessings of divine dragons of the 4 seasons but IDK thats just my take on the story
I would love to know which fe game Blue thinks has the best writing
Same. I really liked SoV. It has flaws of course and it barely has any support conversations but I still really liked it.
one thing i never understood was why elusia even had a religion worshipping the fell dragon in the first place when theyre clearly wrong, but my headcanon is that veyle's ability to revive people as corrupted, perfectly replicated bodies and personalities but the absence of memories can kinda be seen as a miracle thats worth glorifying. Thats my headcanon at least idk if its ever clarified in a support somewhere
Some people could be worshiping out of fear.
@@Dragonite43 You worship something out of fear for 1000s of years?
@@uberculex In our world, that's what people used to do. "If you don't worship God, then you are going straight to hell!"
@@Dragonite43 Yeah, but that's still pretty reductive. God is also supposed to be loving and supportive if you follow the teachings so it isn't just fear. Also, the straight to hell is a bit of a newer focus that is mostly protestant which isn't even 1000 years old yet.
Thank you!! I loved your guys’ take on this game. I felt the same way and you were able to express the thoughts and feelings I had playing through Engage. Great take!
I'd like to see that Teir List. I will say that the only thing that stuck out for me with echoes was the voice direction.
We can definitely do it at some point!
If you look at engage's world map it does look like a ring / donut shape. Probably intended by the devs but it was a cool detail consider how much this game revolve around the rings and I haven't heard many complains about engage's world map.
The map is very "video game map", and that's fine and fitting for the tone, in my opinion. In interviews they wanted to invoke the feeling of old JRPGs, hence why it is the way it is.
I miss the older maps that had a bit more geography to them than a square that's split into different environments. It's definitely something I complained about the minute we saw the map in the original trailer, I think I mentioned it in my initial trailer reaction haha!
Yes, please do a story tier list
I feel like they need to introduce a new archetype called the Orson (from fe8) so that we can feel the weight of betrayal. It would actually be a great way to make jaegans meaningful. Have them carry you through the early game, and then around chapter 8-11 when they would start falling off anyway, have them defect to the enemy side. So you experience what it's like to have a strong unit carry you, and then after they defect you get a few chapters with stronger enemies and you feel their absence, and then around chapter 16-19 they are the final midgame boss and defeating them represents the Lord coming into their own and moving past the strong unit that used to carry the team because now the team can carry themselves.
Mechanically I would even include reverse auto leveling. Then if you bench them right away they're strong as fuck and it makes that chapter a slog, and if you use them all the time and have supports, they get gradually weaker. I'd say if you get them at level 1, their boss fight has them at level 20 with boosted stats. For every level they earn while on your team, their level as a boss is reduced by one or two as well as the boosts to their stats. I would love to invest in a unit only to have those resources I invested turned against me as a gateway to the end game.
Alcryst and Celine have prob the best supports. Not just in the ones between them but also with other characters
I disagree with the whole "Engage plot is worse than Fates" Keep in mind that the reason why people dislike Fates is not because of the incoherent world building and plot holes, it's Corrin as the protagonist that damages the story with their poor character arc and the characters surrounding Corrin making dumb decisions that actively hurt the plot.
Alear in Engage has a character arc, even with the bad pacing, and doesn't have moments that make me want to commit die aside from Chapter 10
also Fates has incest and homophobia in it, which actively makes it worse
@@Luna-pk7gz Homophobia?
@@123christianac yes, the game embraces the harmful stereotype of gay people being absolute creeps with Soleil. And to make matters worse, her and Corrin's support is basically Corrin trying to do gay conversion therapy.
@@Luna-pk7gz But Soleil isn't gay though. All her S supports are males characters.
She's the invasive female friend trope. It is similar to how a lot of anime have female friends be _really_ close but not actually romantically interested.
@@123christianac how come there's a conversation in her support with Corrin of him/her basically converting her... I'm sorry but there's no defence for blatant homophobia
I'm... a little bit puzzled by a section near the end. In what way are "lighthearted," "emotionally investing," and "self-aware" mutually exclusive traits? I've known plenty of stories that are wholesome, not too dark, a little bit tongue-in-cheek, and still got me to care. Putting aside entirely whether or not you think Engage's story succeeded in doing all three, it seems pretty obvious to me that that's what it was aiming for?
To clarify that bit, it is not so much that I think it’s lighthearted or that those types of stories are always bad, or that it is mutually exclusive to compelling. It is more a reaction to how the fanbase views it as simple and therefore is fine with how it is written.
The point I was trying to make was that it isn’t what the fanbase is saying it is and that it fails even at attempting to be simplistic, assuming that this is what IS was going for. Regardless of the complexity of the story, it needs to feel cohesive and paced well which Engage does not succeed in either way.
Hopefully that makes a bit more sense with where we’re coming from.
@@BluechanXD I guess that makes a bit more sense. Overall I totally get why a lot of people didn't get much out of the story, even if I personally like it a lot--mostly because I found its thematic throughline to be surprisingly well done (though I haven't seen anyone else mention that so it might just be me who thinks that lol).
I found the story in Engage just really lacking overall, especially when I compare it to other jrpgs, and FE games so I agree with the majority of the points Blue made. I felt like while there were occasional moments that kept me in, I like the twist in Ch.11 for ex, overall I was just disappointed by a lot of different aspects of the writing.
The reaction to Lumera dying earlier on defn didn't make sense imo. Like, I feel like if one had amnesia and all this crazy stuff started happening where you were getting invaded and people were dying, you would be more scared than anything else; not having a personal moment of grieving, with someone you know really little about.
I was also just a bit disappointed with the supports, which is unfortunate because I was really intrigued by the characters at first. Some I found cool, in that they added to the character or explained a bit more about them but, most felt like they keyed in on just 1-2 cliches about the character. Celine talking about tea, or Etie talking about working out, for instance.
I enjoyed Ivy's because I thought there was a bit more depth/variety; how some of the supports were about her being a traitor or being afraid of ghosts, or her status as a princess, or her as a sister. Overall though, I think when I compare to support conversations of other games, Ike and Soren's from FE9 for ex., I feel like Engage's aren't nearly as immersive, intriguing, or added as much to the characters/story as a whole.
I don't really like the avatar worship either with the divine dragon stuff. I thought that was something a lot of people didn't like in Fates too right? Maybe I'm wrong, but if that's the case then I don't really understand why it was included as an idea for Engage. It feels like the writers are aware that people don't like it either because, Alear often sorta dismisses when they try to praise them, which felt to me a bit like lampshading.
Another thing, it was disappointing seeing how little the individual emblems are to the story. I get not having them overshadow the rest of the cast but part of me wishes we didn't even have the bond supports with them, because often they weren't about anything and/or were so short they were forgettable. I think they could've capitalized on the emblems just a little bit so that way when people interact with them they might become more interested in the character or the game they came from. I feel like prior to the release a lot of people were under the impression Engage would try to get more fans interested into older games but, I feel like it doesn't really try to do that.
Idk, sorry to anyone who reads this if I come across as overly negative but, I just strongly feel like Engage could've been so much better story and character-wise.
I went into the game with the "Peak fiction" meme mindset that came with some of the pre-release info, and honestly the story was kind of funny from that persepctive. I was like ah yes the dragon mommy. lmao they killed the dragon mommy peak fiction attained
That's kind of the only way it makes sense tbh
It's just a generic "save the world" story that you seen many time, gather all the rings to defeat the Fell Dragon. Nothing unique, but not bad.
Three Houses had a much better story than Engage, but Dimitri's route (Azure Moon) completely solos the Engage's story for me.
The main character is just a typical shonen protaginist and the fame the MC gets is just out of nowhere "THE DIVINE DRAGON IS HERE! THE DIVINE DRAGON IS HERE!", annoying.
So yeah, the story is nothing to be impressed with.
4:19 - I feel like there is a clear answer why both Veyle and Alear are wanting to be good dragons is because they want a good healthy relationship instead of what they were used which was Sombron’s view of them only as loyal kin instead of as actual children. There was a lack of love they both had which Alear gains through Lumera and Veyle gains through reuniting with Alear
7:42 - Though I do agree that Engage does feel copy paste from the general formula, all fire Emblem games in a way follow the formula and thus this arguement feels more one-sided that it wasn’t enjoyable since it’s similar to what we’ve seen. Setting is really what makes the story stand out and the setting of this game was pretty lacking and definitely felt very much like Awakening. However that’s not a bad things since Awakening was a good game. Also I’d like to add that Alear isn’t a terrible character, not even a bad one. I think compared to previous, definitely on the lower side, but there’s still a certain depth of them trying to be formal as the divine dragon but also to disassociate themselves enough from the high and might role and duty so that they could enjoy life with their friends they meet. Adding on to this, saying Alear is watered down Robin is true but not since they aren’t the same character in a different setting with their own set of troubles and all. There are similarities, but saying watered feels a bit harsh. (A bit jumbled but ask for clarity if you want😊)
10:00 - Saying a parental death is an undeserved moment, feel wrong. I get that it feels rushed, I agree, but you have to look at it as if you meet your parent for the first time in 1000 years (very relatable am I right😂) you’d be distraught if they were taken for you with in a day. It pushes the trauma of an FE game to an earlier point than most games (except Fates), but keep in mind the story requires it. Also if you want to criticize a story, I’d want to read your rewritten story to know what changes you’d make. Overall the early death felt rushed but was alright and pushed the story along as well because it was the pushing off point that gave Alear her quest to unite the Emblem rings and take revenge against those who killed her mother. ( I will say my only issue with t this moment was the actual cutscene. By the end of it I was like just let Lumera die. But I was still an alright cutscene).
10:32 - Whether or not you meet a character for them to die soon after doesn’t matter. The bond was obvious in the first place with Morion being proud of his sons and a man to never back down from his challenges. So I’d argue against saying this “meet then die” writing for Lumera and Morion being a bad thing because it’s a necessary to the plot. (You don’t have to have an in-depth personal relationship with every character).
11:24 - Marnie’s abandonment story is really meant to be casual cause it’s just proof of her character kinda moving on though it still haunts her. It was also meant to give her an underlying relationship with Veyle which in the need would influence her decisions later on.
12:07 - Dying man’s clarity. I mean if you were to die you’d try and get as much off your chest as possible. So that’s why their cutscene went on cause it was this dying clarity they both had that maybe their actions and lives were not lived to the fullest. Yes I wish it was sooner cause then it made me upset for their deaths but in the end it had to happen
12:38 - Sombron was never open about his story in the first place so of course he’d tell you right at the end because he was going to be victorious in his eyes so no reason to not tell you. Just be happy they told us why he did what he did.
15:08 - I’m going to say kinda what I said before but more general, they give us the pieces of these characters so we do actually understand they characters to an extent. But I don’t know if y’all want to know absolutely everything there is to know about a character before their death then I hate to tell you, it’s impossible. Also I doesn’t matter if they have a chapter or the whole game before they die, their death is meaningful in the end (in a way)
17:45 - I’m going to not that I’m interjecting kid segment but still, Marni’s lore dump in my opinion makes sense cause when else are you going to put it. It’s not a story that can be pieced together easily. But it was rushed and you do wish it could’ve been more drawn out and I would agree with that to an extent. It’s not evidence of bad writing. Mauvier on the other hand is an example of drawing out a simple character complex. He’s a loyal retainer who truly cares for Veyle. Simple. But I’m just leaving it at this, Marni’s more dump worked.
18:24 - I’d first like to say that not the game is not self- aware. This is a bit of a stretch saying that it is. Also Zephia’s mother like qualities really aren’t seen throughout the story and I get that and it bothers me as well. However I think it comes down to her being the leader of the hounds and the subtle hints that give it away before it’s truly metioned in the cutscene. Would have liked to see more of it, but doesn’t make the story bad and definitely doesn’t make the character writing bad. (Also, THE GAME IS NOT TRYING TO BE SELF-AWARE).
21:23 - I would definitely disagree with the argument of no character growth only lore dump. I hate to say it I think you just have only negative opinions about the game and this the game is bad. Talk about no depth to character. As for the four hounds there is not issue with their writing. And though everything feels rushed that’s alright. It goes back to what I said before you don’t need to know everything about about a character for them to be meaningful. Mauvier had growth, Marni just wanted to keep to herself and hide her pain from the past, Griss used pain and villainy to try and fill the void in his life and Zephia wanted to keep the hounds together so she’d have this family feeling that she always longed for. Though she kills Marni this is due to her loyalty to Sombron and hoping that she’d eventually get what she was promised, but as she said she never realized that she had the family she always wanted with the hounds (I argue that subconsciously she knew which is why the drive to keep the hounds together was their, but loyalty first when it comes to Sombron or else he’ll feed you to the corrupted).
23:30 - The royals weren’t meant to be the focus. Their kids were. Simple. Also it’s called a Kingdom cause Alfred’s dad died early but he was too young to rule.
24:29 - Who cares if a character is meant to be relevant or not. Nothing wrong with it. Also, not all support conversations are the same so can’t say they are. But I’d like to say this, you argue that alls characters have no sense of relevance, but all of them add something to the story wheter about the past, present or future. They are not all just pawns (unless you are Sombron). Take Fe3H a game that has a lot of characters. None of those characters really needed to exist. Sure they had stories that tied into the main stray, but Ignatz never had to be a part of the golden deer and could have easliy been a NPC named Steve. But they put the work into creating the character whether you like it or not. A character’s relevance to the overall plot is not an argument for their inclusion. (Game wouldn’t be as fun if you only had free plot relavant characters only).
I'll comment on each of these sections with my own personal take. I think it will help explain my thought process when looking at Engage as a whole.
1) Since Alear was the focus of the discussion Link and I were having about this, I won't talk much about Veyle since she has her own arc. Alear's want to be a good dragon was stated as the "evil" version, not the current one in the cutscene I'm referring to. They had just finished attacking the group and were essentially robotic in following Sombron's orders. So having them say they wanted to be a good dragon afterward feels like it comes out of nowhere.
2) Watered down in the sense that they have a similar background overall but with very little making Alear unique compared to other lords. Stories may be different in each narrative, but it's very clear where the influence came from.
3) The scene is undeserved because it is paced badly. A scene like that is deserved when we have an emotional attachment to the characters. If they wanted a quick death to happen right after meeting Morion, then they shouldn't have attempted to play up him being brought back as something dramatic and heart wrenching. There is no emotional weight to fighting him because we as the player are not in the same situation as his sons are.
Also when something is in a story for no other reason than to further a plot, that's a plot device or MacGuffin. It's essentially what writers do when they have no idea how to get from one point to another so they force a plot point to get to where they want to be instead of it being the natural progression of events. Ultimately, you don't need to kill off anyone to push Alear to want to go on a journey to get the rings. All you need to do is have someone steal them and that's your motive.
I also won't sit here and rewrite the entire story from scratch, but I feel like if you want a better paced story, you need to give opportunities for characters to get to know each other better over several chapters, get rid of plot devices, and honestly just don't bother with giving characters backstories if they're not going to benefit much from them or shape their characters in any way.
4) See section 3 for this part.
5) Same issue as before. If they meant to set up Marnie as being able to relate to Veyle, they would have been closer similar to how Mauvier is to Veyle. There is no indication that Marnie cares for her before and the addition of something that might connect them isn't really highlighted as a proper connection. If it really was meant to influence Marnie into being the one to break the tiara, then it was very haphazardly thrown in last minute and is again a plot device instead of something built up earlier in the story. They had time for it but they didn't utilize that time. If they wanted to have character who cares about Veyle be the one to do it, it should have been Mauvier.
6) It's not really clarity in this case because their relationship never came off as familial before. This was a case of them telling us they were family, but no actions shown previously made it feel like they were. The characters can say they're a family all they want, but if they don't act like it then I won't believe it.
7) Sombron also has no reason to tell you either. It just ends up being a case of "we need to give the players an understanding of the villain's actions" but narrative wise he has nothing to gain for explaining himself to the cast. He doesn't want them to feel sorry for him so it just exists for the player.
8) I don't need to know everything there is to about a character before they die. I need a reason to care for them dying. If I have no connection to the character, I don't feel anything for them.
9) That's the thing. You don't put the lore dump in at all because it doesn't add anything. It doesn't make you feel sorry for her because we've had no reason to feel like it bothers her or affects her in any way. And as I mentioned previously, you could have easily given her job of breaking the tiara to Mauvier because we had time to see him care about Veyle. There was no reason for her to be the one to do it other than the game wanting to get rid of her.
10) I agree that the game is not self aware. So that's mostly Link's perspective. I'm still under the impression that a lot of the writing powerhouses are behind their next project. At least I hope they are.
11) The writing itself has an issue because it is paced badly. Even if you have decent ideas, if you can't execute them properly then it isn't a good story. Also in regards to the Hounds, I discussed this briefly but it's another case of show don't tell. The game can tell me all they want what the characters are feeling, but if it is not shown then I won't believe it. Zephia doesn't act motherly in any way to the others. Marnie doesn't care about Veyle until the plot needs her to. Mauvier doesn't change because as mentioned it was more that he was looking for a way out (this doesn't mean he's badly written per say, just saying that he is static in his convictions). And Griss doesn't show any care for Zephia before he mentions seeing her as a mother.
12) Their kids weren't even the focus most of the time. Like Link and I mentioned, they kinda just drifted to the background as the game progressed. Though I think what Link was talking about was more that their scenes don't really add anything. You could easily just have the royals be in their positions and it wouldn't change much outside of who gets captured or what.
13) I think you misinterpreted what we were saying about the cast. We didn't say they were the same as each other. We were saying they are handled the same as each other. In that they are mostly their gimmicks and that their supports don't add much in terms of showing us their relationships which is what supports are supposed to do.
The difference between the cast of 3H and Engage is that 3H has separate routes where you have a much smaller group to work with unless you recruit others over. Because of the route system you have a more condensed cast for each playthrough which allows them to have their moments to shine. Not all characters are relevant to the story, but they are integrated well because they give background on the world and provide context for why they are the way they are.
There's probably more to add, but it's a lot to write here. And Link has his own view of how things should have played out so I can only really give my opinion here.
It wouldn't surprise me if there was content cut or something or the scope of this game was originally bigger and then they said "Yo tone it down will ya. We just need another couple of characters we can add to the next smash game." Like a lot of stuff that some of the allies touch on when you meet them just never goes anywhere.
Remember before the first battle when Vander's all guns blazing to fight and Alear's like "Nope. Let's bail!" To which Vander's seemingly dismayed that the "divine" dragon just told him to bitch out. Then nothing comes of it... Like how much more interesting would Vander be as a character if his support chain with Alear was all about his qualms about how he and the lineage of Stewards before him safeguarded and served Alear because they were told Alear was this godly dragon that was gonna save them all and then they turned out to be a bit of a bitch and Vander like questions if living his life in service was a mistake or implies that Lumerra keeping her power for herself rather than using up her power to revive Alear would've been preferable as Alear wasn't worthy to replace her. Instead their support chain boils down to "Yo let me do ya washing. 31 other dudes before me waited for this chance and now I'm privileged to be the one to actually do it."
Or like the entrance to Brodia makes Lapis out to be such a badass "If you cant even dodge one arrow, you're not welcome in the Kingdom of Might." Then her whole personality once joining you is just "I'm kinda handy at building stuff but don't tell anyone I grew up on a potato farm. I don't want them to think I'm a hillbilly." So many wasted opportunities and just wasted characters in general.
Finally like you can really tell that the story and the support chains just aren't in anyway linked because one thing that I noticed immediately in my first playthrough was missing is the support chain locking where it caps out until certain story thresholds important to the character are met. Because the events of the story affect them and how they interact with you. Like its super jarring to see some one like say, Diamant/Alcryst have their dad die (which as you guys touched on really didn't carry any emotional weight to you as a player) and then in the same battle where their forced to kill him, you unlock a support convo with them and then they're back up on the Somniel good as gold, up to more character hijinks with you.
i agree that was my biggest issue of engage story is pacing yeah 🤦♂😮💨
Before I even watch. I've been waiting to hear some thoughts on engage's writing
Well, you're gonna get thoughts and a half from both Blue and I that's for sure haha
My personal favorite character from this game was Panette, and I want to say some things about her and her brother Pandreo thinking about the points brought up in this video
I think between the two, im probably biased, the stronger is Panette. It's mentioned in her supports with her brother why she was so aggressive which explains the way she acts in some of her supports, and the way Timerra talks about her in the past. She changes her view on her parents and even wishes them the best even after what they put her through, which I think works for a character who in a way is all about change. She started as an angry young woman with loads of pent up aggression, but had changed herself and is now more happy for it, and her supports with Alear work well in tandem with this, I think.
And...Pandreo. I like him, but at points he feels as though he doesn't need to exist. He comes from the same family as Panette, and if i wasn't told outright, I wouldn't have even known. He's the party priest, and he doesn't really move beyond that outside of his supports with his sister.
This is just my opinion on them, Panette could secretly be the worse between the two from a writing standpoint and I wouldn't know. But I think the way Panette's upbringing had affected her and how much she's changed and still is changing makes me think she's a very strong character, maybe even one of the strongest in this game
You both are actually quite wrong about the whole "mom Zephia" thing because throughout the entire game she is talking about how "children need to be punished when they step out of line" and other things along those lines whenever she'd punish one of the other hounds for something. True, she never directly said the words "I want to be a mom" but through her words and actions it was clear she saw herself as an authority figure and her use of the word "children" makes it obvious, in my opinion of course, that she would see herself as a mother to these children. So, yeah, she clearly wants to be a mom... a horribly toxic one, but still a mom haha.
Other than that... I guess you're both right about everything else, but I really just don't find myself being as bothered by any of it. I even ENJOYED the story for what it was, despite its issues. Much like you, I just saw it as being self aware. It's a celebration of Fire Emblem, so in my opinion taking the game too seriously is a mistake for that reason. Hell, I even love the characters. Every single one of them aside from maybe Framme and Clanne. Sure some of them have some bad supports, but I enjoyed most of them.
they tried to connect 12+1 (13) games together that have no connection to each other whatsoever into one celebration story and they made it work, no other company is anywhere skilled enough to make 30 years of a game franchise come together into one game
There’s a difference between not trying, and thinking that you DID put effort in but it was the barest minimum; I’d say this game in many ways did the latter. I’d contrast Medeus to Sombron by saying he does have a backstory that tracks for why he is who he is (he agrees with Naga to seal his power but the other Earth Dragons don’t, so he has to watch over their seal; over the years he’s increasingly consumed by hate for humanity for how they treat his people), even if in the story proper he’s one-note. Whereas Sombron, they seem to think he’s more rounded than he comes across; at least Medeus is intended to be evil AND it was a different time.
47:15 Here's a question. Was this the story we were supposed to get or is it another example of FE having a localization that isn't authentic?
I'm not entirely sure myself, but there have been comments saying that the translations do differ, though I don't know to what extent
51:30 Omg same with me here. People are saying "skip the story enjoy the gameplay" or "play maddening" but I seriously can't. I don't even have the slightest motivation to touch the game because characters and story are so bad. With Three Houses I can endure whatever bad mechanics throwing at me because I love the characters so much. I am a story/character driven FE player and I never regret about this fact.
Yeah I think in my case, I'd be willing to play Houses multiple times for the exceptional cast, especially the Eagles on my side. But I wouldn't mind doing runs of the other two houses either.
Yes fully agree. Do you think I play a 40 hour to 100 hour just because of gameplay no you have to substances to it. And Engage has no substance to it like at all. Bland and boring.
Okay, here we go properly this time.
I am going to focus on the first 20 minutes or so, because frankly I first watched this at 2 in the morning the other day, and I never finished it properly, I will after this.
Starting with first five minutes I am going to refer to as “easily answerable questions about motivations”
Veyle’s motivations for her being good, she was always good, but her villainy was mind control so yeah, but her motivations was because of a promise made to her late mother to stop sombron from killing everyone, and while this is revealed way too late, it is still there. Alear part 1: past Alear, the motivations behind past alear’s turncoat actions is pretty simple, they want Veyle to experience the kindness Lumera gave them, and they don’t want any other siblings to die from sombron. Alear part 2: current Alear, a pinkie promise made from the five and half minute cutscene with Lumera reveals that she wants Alear to fight “like a divine dragon” which is actually super subtle foreshadowing, but in my opinion way too subtle.
Now to the rest do the 20 minutes which is entirely categories by pacing. It’s two major points, in 1. Parental death, and 2. marni as well as the other hounds.
Parental death: this game experiences three parental deaths, which two less than fates, at five, we’ll a put a pin in that little detail for now. Anyway, Parental death part 1: Lumera vs Mikoto.
This one bothers me the most, because Lumera gets seven times as much screen time as Mikoto does in terms of chapter 3rds, this is concept in which Im referring to pre-chapter cutscene, chapter, post chapter cutscene. We have Lumera around for 2 and 1/3rds chapters in which a lot happens but happens in our time so fast we kind of miss all of it, which is a pacing problem, which I really should note, this game has a pacing problem, it’s just not in the same way as many think it is. Let’s go through the actions of each mother before they die. Lumera: Kills Corrupted with dragon beam and then greets Alear as their mother, promises to talk more at the castle. Chapter 2, the next day Lumera has a conversation with sigurd regarding Alear’s past, and the emblem ring gift, yes that detail is what the conversation is about, but that’s only a detail that one could see in major hindsight, so I don’t blame anyone for missing that, I did too the first time. She then has the training session with Alear, and then that night after Alear’s dream and Marth’s lie, Lumera fights cloaked Veyle and dies after a lore drop. That’s a really watered down version of it, but it’s accurate enough.
Mikoto, we walk in the city, complaining about being a prisoner, she says hello my child, i am your mom, let’s see your room, okay let’s go in the city, dies. That’s also watered down, but there is less time before mikoto’s first death than in Lumera’s death cutscene. We meet Mikoto in the beginning of chapter 5, and before the chapter starts properly, she’s dead. Which means the dragon transformation reaction makes even less sense, because corrin literally just met mikoto no more than an hour ago in game world. Which also means mikoto died to introduce a mechanic, which is really problematic to me. The pacing isn’t great for either of them, but at least we experience Lumera just a bit before she dies.
Parental death part 2: Morian, this is gonna be really short, because the pacing is just really bad here. I don’t have more to say, they did Morian dirty. He still gets more time than Sumeragi and Mikoto do, but it’s squandered away.
Okay on to the hounds, so, Marni’s death is actually the most set up one, for that is the result of a really dumb setup from chapter 5, in that Zephia kills those who don’t listen. It’s a dumb setup but it’s there. (And that’s more than I can for every character who dies in fates, except maybe Elise). So I’d like to get this out of the way, It’s a war, the opponent has no obligation to tell you their life story, I think that’s pretty obvious that engage was pulling the “why should I tell you when you’ll dead in a minute” Shtick, and did so three times before telling you the backstory (yes that’s an issue, but it explains a lot). I think this problem could be fixed if Marni saw Zephia more visibly as a parental figure than they showed, now they do this a bit, like how every time marni loses she says “it’ll be fine, Zephia and Sombron love me,” which shows a childlike innocence. So actually Zephia’s family piece is brought to light more through Marni than anything else now that I’m thinking about it. It’s there it’s just not shown by Zephia. Huh neat. Anyway, this next point is really weird and the reaction of information of which is entirely dependent on who’s reading this, family dynamics aren’t just through devotion. Griss is really casual with Zephia, and maybe that’s too a fault, I never saw that, because I’m casual with my parents, I don’t know about the readers though, it would have been really jarring if Griss acted to Zephia as Framme acts to Alear, I wish there was more of Griss to be able to show that information not just tell us(which is the biggest problem in pacing this game has, show not tell dilemma) but we only get three chapters of Griss properly, spread out through 17, 20, and 23. Mauvier makes it pretty clear early on that all he cares about is Veyle and her safety, so while he doesn’t do much, he really isn’t trying to.
Zephia, this is the big one, her wanting to be a mother, her actions, and why her death is longer than expected, and why that also applies to Lumera, and why Lunera’s first death explains that. Okay, while Zephia never really displays this family dynamic throughout the story, it’s because until she dies, she never actually thinks of them as an actual family, and thinks more mob style family, Explained by her oh crap I messed up in chapter 23. Her actions throughout the story actually reflect this mob boss style family pretty decently and might be the only essence of show not tell this game provides properly. Why is her death scene so long? Well that’s pretty easy to explain, see they tell you this, but she doesn’t get killed by the player, she dies because she got rid of her time, which Lumera does as well and that’s why lumera’s first death is so long too, I can’t say for why this time magic thing is the case, because that’s never explained, just I guess powerful magic has a cost, and sure whatever.
Okay, final two points because I think I’m starting forget information so let’s get it out of the way, remember that little pin. Yeah let’s clear it, the five deaths of fates: Mikoto, Sumeragi, Garon, Anankos(soul), and Arete. We get no time for any of these characters other than Garon. The three deaths of Engage, Morian, Lumera, Hyacinth, we get no time for just Morian, and to a lesser extent, Hyacinth. I think engage, despite its pacing problems, clears fates on the random acts of murder, I didn’t even get into non-parental figures, and I’m not going to, because it would take too long. I want to touch finally on, Lumera Vs Mikoto late game, chapter 24 vs Chapter 25, which one is better is preference based, but the concept of Corrupted’s being the worst form of the person’s self is done really well in chapter 25, whereas the Anankos puppets are fully aware of their actions in that mikoto knows what’s she’s doing, but is forced to do it anyway. It’s hard to even explain fates here because it makes no sense, and I’ve done revelations seven times and it still doesn’t make sense.
Okay Final Final point, where can things be fixed, this is more of discussion point than anything, but here we go, presentation of the show not tell dilemma is a really big problem in engage, and there could be more show in that mix, as for characters, like the hounds, I think the fact that it mostly happens in Solm was a huge issue, because solm solves their problems before you get there, and as for Morian I think we could have stood to make a return trip to Brodia to see that resolved properly. The hounds, despite the 13 chapters in total we have them around for, I think if certain elements were swapped around to even pushed back a bit, it would’ve flowed better, example, If chapter 18 was the return to Brodia, and then the port map chapter 19 happened and then the original chapter 18 was a new inputed chapter 21, before the lythos double mission, and that in this new chapter 21, Mauvier and Marni were green units against some boat of corrupted or something, we could’ve had enough time to get through Marni and mauvier’s story properly. I think that’s everything I need to say right now regarding the first 20 minutes of this discussion and I’ve just realized I’ve been typing for over an hour now. Hopefully that answers your questions Blue, If it doesn’t feel free to specify what’s confusing, discussions are meant to be fruitful and not random arguments after all.
I wouldn't mind hearing, though I don't think my grievances really get addressed properly. This game is very much telling us instead of showing us, which is why a lot of what is dropped on us later feels like it comes out of nowhere.
@@BluechanXD I know I haven’t written my piece yet, but that is pretty much true, the problem with show not tell is way more present than anything to do with a lack of information. In fact, if anything, I’d say some of the information is given too early.
@@thelostician Yeah that’s pretty much my issue. It’s less of whether the information was there or not and more that it wasn’t shown to us properly. I mentioned this in another comment, but for example taking Zephia’s want to be a mother. She refers to the Hounds as family but her actions don’t fit that narrative. She isn’t particularly motherly regardless of what the game tells us she is.
And this is something that is consistent throughout. If we had been given scenes previously that backed up what the characters were saying then it could have fixed the pacing issues.
@@BluechanXD Absolutely true, when I finish writing the piece I am going to touch on Zephia’s point of perspective, because her wanting to be a mother is revealed when the hounds first appear, she very quickly states and I’m paraphrasing here “this is my family, the hounds.”
Whoops wasn’t done yet. Unfortunately it’s never shown through action and that lack of action is only displayed properly, after she dies, when sombron explains his idea of family as tools to be used, if that little detail was shown earlier and not even by much, things would flow more easily.
I just want to state that when I first wrote that little bit at the top, I was kind of blowing a fuse that shouldn’t have been, so it comes out a little insane, writing is a process that takes a lot of work, and I’d like to focus on what went wrong, what went right, and where it can be fixed.
@@thelostician It’s all good. I’m sure Link would also like to hear more discussion on the story and have others share their perspectives. It’s also good for the algorithm haha!
49:10
I don't know who you are but I fucking love you. Spelled out by you, word for word, is what I've been feeling ever since Awakening. And I have no clue why this argument is completely ignored. I've had enough of this same issue already with so many of my favorite games that it hurts. Settling for less, especially in favor of 'look at me I'm so quirky', silly and memeable anime characters so clearly created for the purpose of filling every corner of the internet with cutesy or straight up r34 content (FE subreddit is one giant pixiv dumpster) is why this, and many other jrpg fanbases have no fucking standards.
Is this series even about epic fantasy wars anymore? Like no shit FE was always anime, but it used to be inspired by Legend Of Galactic Heroes and Berserk and now it's inspired by like... I dunno that stock generic ecchi/romcom/slice moe trash you've seen last week that you can't even remember the name of.
They should have stuck with what Tellius was doing, it's not winning any awards but at least it was competent and good enough to be aproachable by a much more neutral crowd. Instead they went the easy route all those years ago and Engage is a culmination of that. This is why we can't have nice things.
I'm definitely a story over gameplay kinda person and I like SoV.
What exactly makes an objectively good story?
Let’s face it. It’s tasteless. But shout out to all of voice actors. They did a great job despite of a bad plot 😅
Male alear VA sound he there for a pay check
@@mikethepokemaster2012 Nah. He has a lot of good moments.
I feel like this should have been some sort of anniversary game. Especially since a lot of the major maps you play on come from older games. Also, how can he keep being a divine dragon that doesnt have a dragon form lol
It is the 30th anniversary game technically, it's just not really named that way
It's absurd that people are trying to compare this story to fates as a way of showcasing how bad it is when it's not even that bad, it's flawed, but solid. Fates just has way too many issues with its stories in nearly all three routes and that games whole marketing premise was about the story depending on the path you choose. That's the issue with faith's while engage marketing was more focused on the celebration of the series as a whole.
Fates was trying to be serious
Engage wasn't trying to be serious
I will never forget that overly serious trailer for fates, while engage felt like it was supposed to be a bit of a joke
Corin convinced both hoshido and nohr leaders to jump into a casm they thought would kill them for no explanation given other than to just trust her and that it would help them fight an invisible enemy that she wouldn't tell them.
Fates story is pants on head stupid and anyone who defends it didn't play conquest or revelation
Wrong. Engage tried way too hard to be serious
I don't think I've ever agreed with someone as much as I agreed with Blue in this video.
For the record, it's not everything she says, just 90%.
I'm gonna say this due to Engage's story being ok and despite it being obvious but Sombron is on my list of video game video villains who i really can't take seriously on a design, personality, evil deeds, motivation or story perspective. Sombron kill his children save Alear and Veyle, tries to have all Emblem Rings and uses them create a portal to other worlds just because he's lonely? That has got to be the lamest villain motivation i've ever heard and why i think Sombron isnt evil just broken because of that.
35:11 “dumb things people wouldn’t say in real life.”
Me: you should hear what I talk about with my friends sometimes.
Also a completely different comment: some people just like mediocre things. For me, my two favorite Fire Emblem games are Echoes and now Engage. A lot of it depends on outside factors that have very little to do with the game like what’s going on in my life at the time I’m playing it and how the game might relate to it, or whether or not I got spoilers for it. Although 3h had excellent supports, they were very long and emotionally heavy, whereas these ones obviously aren’t.
Long story short, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure, and that’s why I’m glad Fire Emblem games have so much variety in them.
I’d be very interested in hearing Blue trash talk more :)
I think some parts of the story worked really well which was more than I was expecting so I'm still pleasantly surprised with what we got as I wasn't expecting to enjoy any of it other than the memes. Is the third act bloated, yes. Do they hit you over the head with characters saying really obvious things, yes. Do all of the character motivations make sense, no. Enjoying a story is subjective as even the worst stories are enjoyed by many. I don't think this story is worth the time to nitpick. If you enjoyed it great, if not, just skip it if you ever play it again.
Just hit the + button and play the game is how I shall handle it from here on out pretty much, because the gameplay SLAPS
Blue finally verbalized how I felt about the Lumera death scene. And the whole game honestly. Great discussion.
Loved this discussion! I found the story pretty weak, but o was still gagging at the end with the Sombron backstory. Like I was genuinely very interested! Was it told in an interesting way? Probably not, and I don’t think it’s an amazing plot. But I did enjoy it.
That said, I think the thing about “settling for less” is pretty spot on… I’m glad Blue said that lol.
I feel discussion videos like these really need a participant in the conversation who truly has a dissenting opinion from the opposite speaker because a lot of conversations like these on divisive topics can just dissolve into an echo chamber. This discussion had the exact opposite problem of another one I listened to where all they had was a generally positive discussion towards the story and characters and any attempts to voice the opposite like in this discussion video was a halfhearted effort that after quickly getting challenged the point was dropped. Like I don’t like engage’s story or characters that much but even I can see some point in this video that were off the big glaring one was the Zephia comment where your trying to tell me the idea of her wanting to be a mother comes out of left field when the whole game she’s been talking about how the four hounds are a true family and she stresses that she means this (which this in of itsself is stupid because her cold blooded murder of Marni doesn’t really reflect this but I digress the point stands this idea does not come out of no where it’s just terribly executed)
You might be interested in checking out other videos I’ve been in with Link because more often than not we disagree on a lot of things. That and he brings me on to discuss less because he wants an opposing opinion and more because we’re good friends. So it’s more of a fun kind of thing.
I feel like I’m writing this out a lot in other comments, but I do want to make it clear that when I say something comes out of nowhere, I mean that it wasn’t shown properly. I bring up the Zephia situation a lot because its issue is less that it isn’t the first time we’re hearing it but more that Zephia never acts motherly to the Hounds. She might say they’re family but the actions of the characters don’t make them feel like one. There’s backstabbing (literally in certain cases) or having loyalties lie elsewhere. Zephia can say she wants to be a mother all she wants, but her actions don’t make me believe that at all. That’s pretty much what I mean by it coming out of nowhere.
@@BluechanXD ah that's good to hear I'll have to do that, unfortunate my first listen to a topic you two discussed was one you two are pretty much on the same page as haha.
Also when you put it like that yeah I can agree 100% with you there when you put it like how the Zephia mother point wasn't shown properly and the game expects you to buy into it when it's just executed to painfully terrible in that context I can say it comes out of left field.
I'm surprised you managed to find anyone being positive about this game's story anywhere! I personally loved it (though I haven't done the final chapter yet, so I guess it could still somehow bungle it) and I've yet to find anyone else echo that sentiment. I feel like a lot of what the game is doing it actually delivers on pretty well? Like, I agree that Past Alear would have been amazing to have in more than 1 chapter, that would have been nice. But… idk. The game's story itself is simple and designed to get out of the way in favour of intense character drama, which is where all the intricacies of the narrative take place. Are there moments where it devolves into troperiffic BS? Yes, but those exist in support of the character drama, which is where all the real focus is. I also think the paralogues are often lame, many of them fail to meaningfully relate their lessons to Alear's experiences and end up feeling incredibly shoddy as a result, especially where Alear's dialogue is concerned. But other than "maybe Lumera should have died 1 chapter later (her death scene is still incredibly well-executed though)", "maybe Past Alear should have gotten two chapters", and "a bunch of the paralogues suck story-wise", I absolutely love what this game is doing so far, and I just beat chapter 25! The foreshadowing is handled cleverly in ways that say meaningful things about the characters involved, most of the support conversations are amazing (and also if you want political drama looking for the royals' support convos is the place to find it), the voice direction and detail in facial expressions are often delightful, and… Alear is often a fun and relatable protagonist with some unusual takes on certain issues, for a hero. I find myself relating to her often. This game is an emotional rollercoaster that knows how to make the player feel things. And since that's what it set out to do, I'd say it did an incredibly good job.
@@BluechanXD "She doesn't act like a mom" the entire point is that she's blinded to what she had and didn't actually treat them like family. Or at least had a very twisted idea of family from the getgo.
@@nuibaba280 I would argue that she didn’t have anything with them to begin with, reiterating from the first comment about how there’s a lot of backstabbing and personal motives.
And I don’t particularly think they were going for a twisted form of love, otherwise at the end when she and Griss were dying they wouldn’t have played it the way they did and have Griss consider her a mother. And I think considering the overall consistency of them providing exposition by spelling it out to the audience to explain the thought process of every character, I can’t say I ever recall seeing Zephia show any particular forms of twisted love, unless you want to count “punishing” Marnie. The problem is that isn’t a lot of evidence to support twisted love without other moments to back it up. It comes off as more of a standard case of “enemies turn against each other because of a betrayal” with sort of playful terminology used, almost to play up a bit of fanservice to the audience who likes that kind of stuff. Though that might just be a stretch.
This game feels like sonic generations to me. Great gameplay, Nothing burger of a story, and having nostalgia being the main selling point.
I think this story would've been better if it was like 3 houses in the sense you had a more limited roster and the important characters contribute in the dialogues throughout the story. I did enjoy the story, but I think it was weird how characters entered, were important for a chapter or two and just disappeared into obscurity.
I think the game, could've been so much better if they had a system where you can only take one of the three characters per chapter. I think this would limit the amount of useless characters and make the ones you do select, always involve in the story. Having to choose between louis, chloe, celine -timarra,merrin, pannette-alceyst,celine,lapis and ivy,kagetsu,zelkov.
I kinda fall into the line of thinking that Engage's story is OK, nothing good but nothing too bad. Hell I've even agreed with some of Blue's criticisms with the game and do wish that some things with handled better. Like Lumera's death was too early to put in the game and her death was drawn out to the point where I honestly kinda wanted to skip it lol. And yeah I do think they fumbled with making some of the villains redeemable, like I did NOT care about Marni, Zephia, Griss, OR Sombron dying.
But in the end, I do think maybe people are TOO harsh on most of the characters. Like there are some real outliners and good characters (like Yunaka, Alfred and Celine, Ivy, etc) who are actually really interesting characters who most people kinda ignore due to them ignoring some of their important supports and then just call them "bad one dimensional characters".
Like c'mon, I can understand criticism but like your hate for something shouldn't blind you in finding the positives. If you don't like the story or the characters, you can always skip the cutscenes and focus on the amazing gameplay. Besides it's an FE game that's meant to celebrate the series, whether or not it's the positives or the negatives.
I'm usually not the kind of person who sees things in black and white, sometimes I can understand the negatives about something I love and also understand the positives about something I hate. I just hope I brought an civil input into this conversation.
Yeah I honestly rly liked a lot of the characters! I just wish they were better integrated into the story. Like when the story made use of the Brodian and Elusian royals they shined! But so many times the story just doesn’t try, or tries too hard. Like so many moments just do not hit at all, like the villains dying and the veyle mind control stuff
nah, people didnt went too harsh at all on the characters,its just their honest opinion about a dumbed down product, after they set a high standard with 3H going back to mediocrity isnt fair game to me.
Engages story isn’t Fates level bad and that’s all that matters
In all seriousness it really isn’t but it isn’t great. the meaningless deaths we’ve been seeing since awakening really makes me feel like Intsys writers just can write deaths or buildup to anything.
Engage you go from 3 lythos to 3 ferina 3 brodia 2 elusia 4 solm 1 more ferina 3 elusia 2 lythos and 3 gradlon and the final sommil map not much of just a simple circle
The only credit I will give the games writing is Hortensia and that’s saying something.
I haven't played the game, but I have seen gameplay footage, mainly that of the story and some supports. From what I saw, the story does seem to be just there but nothing atrocious. But from the supports I saw, the support writing seems to be a lot, lot better than the story writing, and the playable characters seem solid enough. The story would probably be better if it had the same amount of effort put into it as the supports did.
Granted, while the characters seem good enough, I suspect I would still favor the Houses cast more overall. After all, the Fodlan cast is arguably the best one in Fire Emblem (and I'd probably argue one of the best in gaming). So the Engage cast always had a very, very tough act to follow.
Edit: oh, and I think I can mention I don't blame anyone for not getting into Engage as much as, say, Houses due to the writing. RUclipsr Arlo stated that while he's enjoying the gameplay of Engage, the writing's tough for him to sit through and may prevent him from finishing the game. Whereas he adored the writing of Houses despite playing just one route.
One of the best in gaming is going a bit far but I respect your opinion.
@@johnface3474 Well I haven't played the likes of The Last of Us, The Witcher, and etc. So I can't say for certain where the Houses cast would rank in comparison to those games' casts. My guess is compared to all other games' casts, the Houses cast is among the top 10 at best or top 20 at worst, but definitely not the absolute best.
I don't understand the opening cinematic, it's not set in the past because we see the lords with their emblems and it isn't a scene that happens towards the end of the game either (Alear doesn't face Sombron in a 1v1 except in the past when he's fully Fell Dragon) so why is it here spoiling player characters (especially Ivy who starts as an enemy). It's not a tutorial either because we get those in the following 2 chapters.
I also really hate how none of the lord characters can actually die (they retreat if they fall in battle) because they are in a bunch of cutscenes just standing around not doing anything. I would have preferred if they had game over conditions in the maps they join but then treat them like regular characters later.
I also dislike how we can go to the Somniel and do any Paralogues (essentially we are free to travel anywhere on the World map even though narratively we are fleeing for our lives, cutoff unable to retreat)
I agree with your breakdown of the story. A lot of it seemed to be an afterthought for dialogue especially sombrom. I also concur that these games with a Royal and two retainers again and again take away from true FE style “convert the enemy” where not all people with a face can be but you always try. As for character development, I want to know yunacka’s past keeps being brushed on. The odd C or B plot had a touching moment but no real memorable ones that I’d care to watch again.
Being a fell dragon could’ve been so cool and I have NO idea how they messed it up so bad…
I thinl the story is trying to convey on what its trying to convey to the player. But the execution, again, like fates, is so poor. The mistranslated dialogues, fast paced cutscenes and general character personality.
Their support conversations for me are plenty but yeah i agree with all
Engage and Conquest are basically on the same level IMO. Banger gameplay but nonsensical main story, tropey characters, and nonexistent worldbuilding. Yet in both games I enjoyed how the story ramped up at the end and gave interesting bosses in the final five or so chapters so I can’t say I totally hate the story.
Like I said, the story is better than last year’s fe warriors three hopes but it felt like three steps forward one step back maneuver with the game story I feel like fell xenologue didn’t help either it felt like an endgame content rather than additional story Content
I can't stop thinking about what you said when you compared sombrom to thanos and the 13 emblems are the avengers, the parallels are hilarious
also I'm rewatching sombroms final scenes and he states that the emblem of foundations left him with just a ring. That would mean the emblem of foundations is a living creature and sommie is going to be in the wave 4 as an dragon enemy! same with queen of firene and solm.
Omg alear says "a solitary warrior like that emblem would know how hard it is to be alone"
Sommie has only known loneliness for everyone that he encounters dies....... PUZZLE SOLVED GONNA BE EPIC hopefully
One more thing, like you said the game is being self aware. Wouldn't it be hilarious that sombrom went on a crazy spree because he thought he lost sommie, a man's best friend. Wowowowow I can't believe it
I'm glad Fates' story is getting its flowers. Now I really wanna see that tier list because I want to see SoV be torn apart >:3
This always happens with Fire Emblem games tbh. We have a period of release hype, then the hype dies and everyone starts hating on the game, then a few years later it starts gaining a lot of popularity almost to the point of a cult following. And then after many years, once it starts becoming a valid topic of remake discussion, the hate for it begins to pile again. It's just the fire emblem cycle
@@LinkKing7 nah Engage is pretty bland. Let call it what it is.
Fates' story is still easily the worst in the franchise by far.
@@LinkKing7 Agreed. That's what I've observed and it's kinda annoying.
The tone of the game is just way off. I never really feel like that I'm actually at war.
I disagree about Morion's death specifically being unearned. I left Chapter 8 wanting that warmongering idiot to die and Chapter 9 delivered in epic fashion. I cheered when he got what was coming to him after blundering into the most obvious trap ever over everyone's objections like the king he was.
What do you mean "that wasn't what they were going for"?
It was intolerable lv of being obvious
My biggest gripes with Zephia and the Hpunds is, when Zephia goes off about family during the story...did anyone think she was being genuine? I thought she was doing the villainess trope of gaslighting and manipulating people into staying by them. But no. Zephia really wanted a family. Like there's no way she looked at Sombron and said, "That's the ideal family dynamic." I refuse to believe any character could be that dumb.
The way I saw it, specially after Chapter 24, is that Zephia simply wanted what Sombron had: loyalty (and to some degree, admiration), even if it really was through intimidation, and she called that a family simply through the concept of "parent and child." She saw that and called it "love" without knowing what "love" actually means. She just wanted what Sombron had, and even imitated his actions when faced with betrayal or failure through Marni and Mauvier.
In the end, she didn't feel she had what she wanted completely because she thought the Hounds' loyalties relied elsewhere with Marni's betrayal and Mauvier's clear loyalty to Veyle rather than Zephia or Sombron; she just assumed the same for Griss, when Griss was actually the most loyal because of him being a massochist... she didn't realize this until the very end.
She called it "love" and "family" without knowing what they mean; in reality she wanted loyalty. I wouldn't call her dumb, just treating everything like she had learned through her sorroundings, like most of us do.
Imo, the only truly fantastic FE plots are Path of Radiance and... oh shit that's it
And Radiant Dawn :)
@@robertm5110 I will concede, that's probably the 2nd best, just the obvious plot point that's bad... however the rest of the story is goated I agree, Tellius Enjoyers 💪💪
@@Luna-pk7gz are you referring to the blood pact forcing Daein to fight against the Laguz Alliance for Begnion?
@@robertm5110 yeah, It doesn't bother me as much as other people. Nor do I think it ruins the plot at all.
@@Luna-pk7gz agreed :)
I honestly that I total disagree you two how Alear perform in the story. Alear is a solid character that he or she deserve to be respect in the game that doesn't mean how he or she perform well in the story will impact the audiences. According to reviewer say yes it has issues with story and characters design that Intelligent System needs to work on and some chapters are getting improve. And what others from negative user reviews are misinterpret the story that some chapters are as pretty good but some doesn't make any sense or something went wrong or missing the plot or little bit awkward that one day the Intelligent System will find some other way the technique in the story will impact for the audiences. To me im not a story person I play for fun so it doesn't matter the differences.
I could rant for a long time why I actually think the story is good, not amazing but good and ok at worst, but I'll keep it brief. As I commented in the previous video I feel coming off Three Houses really soured people's opinions on it because of how good that was. There's a popular opinion of "don't take it too seriously" or "treat it like a comedy" but I don't agree with that either. Im principle, yes it's not as serious but I wouldn't treat it like a comedy. It's just a simple story to justify the gameplay scenarios, and a classic "slay the dragon" "good vs evil" story. Which is fine not every story has to be deep, and it did its job as a simple story, in my opinion.
What I will say is the Framme and Clanne stuff, for example, was definitely "cringe" a lot of the time, and I hate using that word. Also, how so many C supports are really bad to the point a lot B supports felt like whiplash. I thought early reviews were just "lol gaming journalists" or mad it's not Three Houses (which also had light hearted supports mind you), but I was shocked how true it was.
My personal take on the story, similarish to what Link said in his previous video, is the story seems selfaware. However, most self aware stories people are used to are typically self depricating and/or use Whedonisms in its writing, Engage is more "subtle" with it in that it plays it straight. The fact Alear died and came back to life twice in the span of 10 minutes and they REALLY phone in Morion was gonna die with a million death flags, among other things, is a sign they know what they were doing. If you think that's bad that's fine, but I respect them for it.
I see a lot of people saying that's engae story is fine because it's a simple "goos vs evil" plot. But the thing it's event a simple premise can be bad is not well executed and engage is in this case. The "evil" in engage isn't ocnsistent or threatening and the goos are boring and generic. Even Awakening did tbe good vs evil better, Grime is a far better antagonist than sombron
And i agree that they are a lot of self aware and good story like gintama but engage it's not one of this. Engage use the excuse of "self aware" by not letting the player build any emotionnal connection with the story or it's character
"There is a problem with FE fanbase settling for less."
Finally, someone else said it.
I always want to give people the benefit of the doubt, there could be something that they know but I dont, it could be Nintendo treehouse employees pretending to be fan and it feel bad being a negative nancy. But man, the amount of mental gymnastism people put out to sugar coating and defending Engage story is crazy.
Chrome is the fix to Robin's amnesia: creating actual friendship (w/ build-up, time skips, with Fred's skepticism to make it more believable), a lord with a back story, actual objective for the main casts and subsequence friction & interaction between Lucina-Chrome-Robin. Here we have bland lord with no memory, suddenly trusting people, immediately leading a multinational group to fight a war that is not properly explained.
100% agree that no build-up was the issue with story progression in Engage, and that I can tolerate if the casts react in a reasonable manner. The out of nowhere & over the top reactions from Alear and others characters is the nail to the coffin, make me cringe at how badly the story was written.
Chapter 11 was a unbelivably bad. Are they serious about having Alear & co. just stand still & scream at the enemies "give it back"? Why were others distracted by Veyle while standing in front of the enemy and a freaking dragon & at Sombron' base, they hardly knew who Veyle is. Why stop at just stealing all the rings and then quietly walk back, Zephia can easily kill a few pep after stealing all the rings. Wasnt the door closed?
Then chapter 17, Zephia just decided to go "here, let's me explain the (predictable) twist and turn of the story". For what? And how come Alear suddenly decided that "you are not Veyle. Give her back?". Then Veyle, if she is going to defect why not collecting all the rings and then rush back to Alear side? Wasnt it all belong to Veyle a few chapters ago, where she bestowed it to the mobs with "lol ... I so enjoy your failing".
Alear with limited back story, Sombron with last minute throw in piece of story. What I see is Nintendo saying please make up the rest of the story for us. The dragon were those with the most screen times. Other characters exist just 'cause we need some units to fight a war. The support add nothing, some were even butchered by localization creating confusing & unexplainable personality traits. Even a random side boss of awakening, Mustafa, has more character than most of the Engage casts, including the royals.
I actually have no issues with going in circle, as long as the story is good and they have an explaination for that. Unfortunately, there was none.
It was so bad that even after digging deep and trying to connect the dots, all I can find is fragments of a bland (& borrowed) story.
They could have Ivy & Hortensia as half-sister and Ivy's mother murdered by Hortensia's mom or by other political faction. Hyasin or whatever his name was would be pleasing Sombron hoping for rebirth of his belove wives. Then we have suport paralogue between Ivy and Hort. Its at least some story, explaining why the once wise and kind man who love his family could be corrupted by Sombron.
The gameplay feel great, emblems create flexibility of build & combat (some combinations are outright broken, but fun), bringing a new and refreshing feel to the franchise. Break is a great addition to the game, the old weapon triangle (in fact not simply "weapon" triangle as it require the right class & the right stat to work + the 2-roll rng system to inflate sword vs. axe dodge tanking) no longer fit the mordern meta as we now have more class introduced. I could settle for the average, I can make argument for mediocrity but the pure garbage story telling was insufferable, make me realize how wrong I was. Engage's story is plain trash, might not be what we need but its what we deserve for always settling for less.
I have a few thoughts so I'm gonna make a comment thread. Some point the guest makes are fair but I think I'm gonna be here a lot considering 10 minutes in.
First. Alear switching sides. I'm assuming she just misremembers the weird as fuck time travel scene and only thinks of the weird sadistic grin we get in the flashbacks.
Alear isn't evil, just a child who is under the thumb of basically a god. Sombrom is a ruthless monster, using and killing his own children for his goals. Alear is scared of him and that is why they serve him. Seeing his arch enemy and rival in influence is a clear out for Alear so they go for it.
Second. The deaths. Alear being upset that Lumera is dead is justified. While Alear doesn't remember her, it's still the death of a kind caretaker figure. On top of that, people are allowed to be upset when tragic things happen near them. Just because you know them doesn't make the death suddenly happy.
As for the king of Brodia, we don't need to see more of him. He isn't important to the story beyond being used as a plot device so being attached to him in his brief scenes isn't what matters. What matters in his death is the reaction of his sons. Diamant throwing out bastard made me double take (especially starting from the 3DS games). If you haven't already, make sure to fight him with Diamant and Alcryst. Holy shit the dialogue is fantastic character stuff... I can't believe it is optional
Small note. If I don't bring something up I either missed it or agree with the video.
Link makes a fair point that we don't even know Alcryst and Diamant yet to justify the death being bad.
I do gotta fight back on 'we don't know these characters well enough to understand what their relationship was'
With Hyacinth and Morion. It was parental. A child caring for the death of their father is fine. We don't need to see any of it if we understand that one is a parent and one is a child.
Even then, Ivy and Hortensia talk about how Hyacinth wasn't always an asshole and we see Alcryst and Diamant both wanting to protect their rambunctious father. We don't see much as Alear is POV character but we know enough to justify why characters behave the way they so.
The player doesn't have to care at any of the deaths. Lumera is the most intentionally emotional, Morion's one is more of a 'oh shit' moment as that means Sombrom is back and his kids flip out.
Well. I disagreed with a lot less than I thought. Pretty decent discussion. Just missed a few beats. I do wanna hear the arguments for Echoes story though
Calling the story trash, is insulting to trash.
(Read my first comment for the truth behind the game.)
*The honest truth is pretty ugly.*
The Short Version:
Nintendo put a New developer as the lead for the game who had no experience. A basic "Yes Man" who likes action games and not turn based tactics games, and was heavily influenced by Nintendo wanting to aim for a New Younger Audience which meant dumbing down the game, and making it flashier.
The Long Version:
If you read the "Ask the Developers" interviews that were released. The guy in charge (Tsutomu Tei), had never been a director of a game at IS before, and seemingly never discusses having any previous experience working on a FE game. So while I can't say what his previous role was, if any, it doesn't seem to be significant enough to mention in his bio.
I'd link the Nintendo article, but RUclips is pretty finicky with links these days. (Typing Ask the Developer Vol. 8, Fire Emblem Engage Part 1, 2, and 3 should get you too it)
If anything, just someone picked by Nintendo to lead the development.
Listening to the other two employees of Nintendo that were in the interview. Tei and the two mention wanting to "appeal to a broader audience" and saying that RPG mechanics such as the Awakening / Fates marriage system took too long to play out in the game. According to them it "wan't fun" so they developed the Emblem Ring idea instead. With the goal of intruding the "fun elements" early on.
I'll quote the Nintendo stooge "Higuchi: We wanted to introduce this fun element for players as early as possible. I felt that the fun of tactical RPG games wasn't as intuitive or immediate as that of action games."
So basically you had Nintendo heavily influencing the game with employees who were more interested and familiar with Action games than tactics RPGs.
Then from the games IS developer,
"Tei: People often say that turn-based tactical RPGs seem difficult or too complicated... In fact, I’m not very good at them myself."
Take of that what you will, I take it as even the new IS dev wasn't interested in making a Tactics game. Just taking orders and advice from his Nintendo handlers.
"Tei: We had several candidates. We were looking for an artist whose design style would appeal to a broad audience - including younger players - as well as the ability to portray a variety of characters. Among the candidates, Mika Pikazo-san's drawings were colorful, vivid, and really popped! They were a perfect fit for the flashy direction we wanted for this title."
So from that we can see the "broader audience" meant appeal to children. In spite of marketing toward long time fans, which makes no sense since new players and young players would not get any of the references. So basically they tried to do both and focused on the younger new audience by lying to the older one.
As it would seem, the games development and design was all over the place. Trying to create a game for a new younger audience, while throwing a bone to the old players to make it seem like they were not being abandoned when they were.
As for another section about their Artist choice that influenced the game in a bad way.
"Tei: Well, I thought it'd be better to be upfront about the request. That said, there was one concern she had. Since she usually draws young characters, she was concerned about her confidence level in some of the character design."
So to answer why all the characters were loli or V-tuber style. It's because that's the only style the artist knew, and he went with it. Also, it also turns put it was her idea to make toothpaste-chans hair color red and blue. As before Tei just went with whatever he was told, advised, or requested.
From everything I have read, Tei should never be in charge of any product. Unless he was specifically chosen because he just follows orders and has no skill as a leader or director.
"Tei: As I mentioned at the beginning, I'm not very good at strategy games myself, so during development, I hoped to create a game that even those like me would want to try out or find interesting."
After reading the first comment, feel free to respond as you like. Though it's very clear Nintendo screwed the players on purpose.
Idk if it’s just me but the game always felt kinda short despite the fact that it’s around the average for fire emblem games.
I thought maybe it’s cus for a spin-off game, it was less story focused and more nostalgia focus but maybe it’s just the lack of characterization that was throwing me off. I like the story or rather, the characters, but it feels like it doesn’t have the same depth as 3 houses or earlier fire emblem games
I thought the length was pretty ok. 26 chapters and 14 paralogues seems pretty fine, so yeah maybe the dialogue wasn't long enough which made it feel shorter?
Looking back, they should have either cut down the number of new cast characters or make the lords like the othet gatcha rings with no personality. Like, Ike is a gatcha that gives more stat bonuses and the Great Aether skill, but he doesnt talk. Either focus on a smaller cast or the Lords.
OMG this lady
Yes.
Honestly, I just went in with the lowest possible expectations for the story and came out not impressed, but... well, it existed. I can see the points where they tried, even if they fumbled through literally all of them. Veyle's story, too, while cliche as hell, was at least passable and I ended up liking her.
As for the support conversations, you gotta kinda dig to find the good ones, which sucks. Thankfully there's the new activity on the Somniel to grind them out, so you can see supports for characters like Alfred and Celine that you'd otherwise probably never see, which lets you find a few of the diamonds in the rough. Citrinne is also a pretty decent and multi-faceted character, I felt like, even though you guys never mentioned her.
Overall, I'd say it's above Fates for me, but I can't express enough how much I despised Fates' writing
I knew this games story would be ass from the moment it was announced. and let’s be honest none of us expected a good story from this game. honestly i’m one of those people who don’t care much about story and just enjoy the gameplay. i love the emblem rings a lot and i also really like the map design. in my opinion this game has the best gameplay of any fire emblem game the characters were nothing special i like some of them like yunaka and fogado but overall the cast is pretty weak. i would give the combat a 10/10 but for the everything else 1/10 which for me personally is around a 8/10 overall because i don’t care about story
yes
Yes
Ranking all the stories is fine as long as Fates is in last place
Tbh, even without Engage in the tier list, I still might not rate Fates last haha, we'll see!
@@LinkKing7 Fates has 3 routes so one of them might end up at the bottom.
I'll tell my grandkids Triangle Strategy was real Fire Emblem Engage.
Triangle Strategy do be a fantastic game though! I should replay that game tbh, I miss it...
Lack of important gaiden chapters
Everybody is either a pretty boy or a psychotic waifu
Of course they'll retreat a million times before getting killed.
commits genocide and numerous war crimes... Still manage to live on without paying for the consequences of their actions.
Me personally I didn’t enjoy the story
We followed the same bosses for multiple chapters and the story never kept me on my toe with surprises
Weak villains for the most part and characters I’m supposed to care about? Alear’s mom? Nah
The story was very weak but I really enjoyed the simple paralogue with the emblem characters and the gameplay was great.
This is just my opinion I respect anyone who enjoyed it
Haven't had time to watch this, but I do want to at least air my thoughts on the game somewhere to make sure they make sense. Tl;dr - My thoughts are the story is bad, because it's intentionally trying to be a 4kids-dubbed bad anime from the 2000's, and it's weirdly endearing. But I might be giving the devs way too much credit here.
So, to start, the story is 100% the big cash-money bad thing in this game. (Like, it's definitely average/mediocre AT BEST and more accurately just objectively bad, even when it's trying to do Serious Storytelling in its own genre. Like, "I've seen someone get so pissed at the game in the first three hours they call the story awful and say they want a refund" bad, and they're totally right on the quality mark + wanting a refund cause they're a story person from what I've gathered.). There's no denying that, and I want to make that clear before doing anything to sound like a blind apologist/defender, so I'm not even remotely defending the quality here. You can definitely write a ton of bits deconstructing the story to figure out how to Write Better than it, and it'd probably take like an hour at most.
The weird thing is, though... it really *does* feel like an intentional vibe/design choice somehow, especially considering this game was (supposedly) meant to be released in 2020/2021 according to tvtropes but just got delayed right as it was finished. It's like the writers got off from writing Three Houses in 2019 (which I haven't played yet, but keep hearing the story is good) and were like, "We spent a billion hours worldbuilding and meticulously crafting an amazing story with awesome characters, and that was exhausting and trying to top that immediately afterwards is a terrible idea right now because it's such a tough act to follow. So let's do a Saturday Morning Cartoon we can go wild with and pay VAs to have fun hamming up B-movie esque dialogue and story beats that just are there to be there and facilitate gameplay", like the point is to get paid to try and appeal to a crowd that doesn't want a crazy intricate story because the devs don't have the energy to entertain two games in a row. The main theme has the exact same feel as a lot of old Saturday Morning Cartoon theme songs, like it's straight up telling the audience, "The story is gonna be goofy as hell and bad at times if not all the time, we know. That's not the point of the game, the plot is here to be goofy/melodramatic so focus on the gameplay", and plays literally every time the game boots up. And it's *super* earnest and in-your-face about it, with the absurd cast and the insanely-written plot to match. (edit) It's even got censorship shenanigans to deal with like a 4kids dub, if the rumors of Supports being changed in localization hold water.
Which kinda makes sense if the gameplay is the true star of the show here - there are a lot of people who play Fire Emblem for the story and only tolerate the gameplay, who would happily compare it and subsequent games to Three Houses and assume Three Houses is the new standard (when as I understand it from reading up on the series on tvtropes, Fire Emblem is kind of all about just doing whatever the current team wants to do from a story and gameplay standard and experimenting a bunch, hence the wildly varied titles in the series in tone, style, writing, and gameplay), when the whole point is that Fire Emblem games are meant to be vaguely different from one another apart from the archetypes used and generic plot beats. With a bad plot, one can ignore the story happily and just get to the actual meat and potatoes of the game instead, and also signals to the story people immediately, "This game is not for you guys. Do not buy or skip the story, please".
(Now, the sanity of *that* business strategy, assuming it is accurate - cause there's a very good chance I'm handing way too much credit here with the speculation alone - is questionable, because they might get lost for too long before the next FE game with good storytelling comes along. It's definitely an interesting thing to debate/discuss online - but weirdly enough, the entire thing is super endearing for someone who grew up with 4kids dubs of anime on Saturday Morning Cartoons like myself. It's definitely *worse* at it from an objective standpoint than what was done previously, I think, because a lot of Saturday Morning Cartoons were more competent at telling simple plots, even the 4kids dubbed ones, but even still it does feel like discovering an old comfort food one completely forgot about until years later when playing this game oddly enough. (edit) Not to mention that I can commend the audacity/honesty at trumpeting what the story/game is gonna be like with the opening alone, somehow - not a music major, but there's gotta be *something* there that explains how I instantly knew the cheese factor/quality in the story from the opening song alone.)
(edit) (Additionally, considering the game was supposed to come out on the anniversary of Fire Emblem according to tvtropes, I get the sense they were chilling out on the story to focus on the crossover stuff as well, make sure they got integrated into gameplay well. That being said, it was definitely a bad call - and since it got delayed right at the end of development apparently, that meant they couldn't even take advantage of the two extra years to refine the story, even if they wanted to. So, convenient excuse there, if not a good one.)
Is the story trash?
Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS
Put it this way. Fates made me cringe when I stopped to think about it. Engage made me cringe while I was watching it.
Alear dies 3 times twice back to back