The controller thing demonstrates the difference between "supported" and "possible" in software. You *can* use a controller to do most things in the game. They don't *want* you to do that because it's not *all* of the things in the game yet. But at the same time, they're not going to stop you because it's your controller.
Nah I see it, BUT but but but but It's predicated on really aggressive / pro-active / early game junglers being meta. Like he'd find an AFK jungler to be the most toxic shit in the world to play.
I am starting to feel bad for Woolie about how much preemptive apologizing he is doing. I get why, though. I understand he is trying something new, and he is using what he is familiar with to communicate his experiences. So, some thoughts might not come out that well. Then you get the people that he is having to do all this pre-apologizing for...
I've been saying for years that I hate that they do everything on stream now. It can't be healthy to have hundreds of 14 year olds scream at you in real time when you say any little thing.
Woolie kinda cares too much about what people think, I feel. Like half the comments I saw in the previous Deadlock video was people complaining about Pat explaining MOBAs wrong, rather than lashing at Woolie, but still. I guess it's easier for Pat, having incorporated "Being Wrong About Stuff" into his online persona.
People say they want time to kill to be short in mobas but then the majority of the most hated champs in LoL are Assasins and burst mages who can burst anyone but tanks in less than 2 seconds.
I think Woolie's misunderstanding is that the enjoyment of a game like Dota 2 and Deadlock is much more centered around the power fantasy of your individual character and working to achieve that fantasy than it is about winning teamfights and objectives, that is definitely an aspect of it and its fine if he likes objective based hero shooters more because of their emphasis on teamfighting but that is what I think is the main difference. I think a shift in mentality towards "How can I make my character as strong as possible through farm and smart skirmishing" and then reaping the benefits of smart play is how you find enjoyment
29:42 I would say crazy talk strikes again, but the verticality thing has already been established possibly months earlier. There's movement tech already guys. Heck there are even several movement items already (carpet, teleport, leap).
That has nothing to do with Crazy Talk, that's just Pat saying shit confidently when he has no actual idea about anything as is usually the case. Not even the lone occurrence in this video.
@@nhojryad Funny how in both Deadlock videos Woolie talks like he's treading on a minefield trying not to be wrong to not upset people, while Pat just confidently talks out of his ass and doesn't give a shit about being wrong about half the things he's saying.
So Ivy has: - Cool character design - Cute spunky personality - Really wholesome backstory - Loadout that lends for some stupidly strong teamwork moments Yeah, I guess that explains why she has a ton of fanart.
Maybe this sounds crazy, but I don't really want the Marvel Rivals system that woolie is talking about where certain characters have explicit bonuses with each other. I think it's kinda lame when the game just tells you "these are the characters that have synergy together". I think it's a lot cooler when those synergies happen naturally through the mechanics of the characters because it leaves a lot more room for experimentation and discovery, instead of it just being dictated to you by the game. I also think it would be really frustrating with the pick system deadlock has implemented currently, but maybe that's more of an issue with the system.
There's a seriously different tone when the game tells you what to do, even if it's just a nudge or a tip. No matter how you formulate it, the game saying it sounds like it's something you HAVE TO do, at least for me.
In my opinion, even when you're not actually punching other players you're always still playing PvP in a dota-like. The decisions you make outside fights are always geared towards pressuring your opponents (ideally). Something like shoving a lane is like throwing a fireball in a fighting game - you're forcing the opponent to make a more narrow set of decisions that you'll hopefully be able to take advantage of. Or you might be farming for an item to counter a specific ability - which the opponent may also be thinking about and farming their own counter in turn. Everything you're doing is still ultimately about fighting the other guys, even if it's sometimes indirect.
@Vanity0666 Woolie doesnt need to do anything. Sure you can twist and come up with ways to explain that you're still actually fighting someone when it comes to the PVE stuff but the reality is he has played games without the PVE parts and just likes that feedback more. I doubt any amount of hoops or explanations of the system is going to change that he just prefers 1 over the other, and when given the option of which one to play hes going to choose the one that ticks all his boxes
@@doremiancleff1508 I genuinely do not understand how he can play games as he does. The Absolute Frankenstein Freak of a settup he used for Half-Life makes me want to Vomit.
One of the worst things I've heard about Deadlock, and probably what would absolutely kill it in Woolie's eyes, is that it gets LESS fun the better petiole get on it. More focus on cooldown management and stuns seems like the exact opposite thing he wants in the game, so I can't see him ever hopping on fully
Ya know what's funny? The things Woolie complained about that he doesn't like about MOBA's. Battleborn addressed in its gameplay. Can mix Abilities for the situation. No shopping because you go in with premade set of Items you have to earn cash to activate. In one Gamemode there's a single lane. Much more digestible for the MOBA starter to dip their foot in.
As a big fan of Dota 2, I actually found Deadlock to be a lot more difficult. Not only do you have to keep an eye out for the typical decision making and strategizing of a MOBA, but now every shot is a skill shot. You have a lot less information available because it's a third person shooter, you don't have an overhead view of the whole map, so it's much easier to get ambushed and caught. I'm getting the hang of it, but it's very complex.
i love deadlock's aesthetic and designs, its so clean, cool and classy, the characters are so distinct and recognisable, theyre cool but still kinda quirky and it all has an edge to it, all the occult, mystery, supernatural elements, collecting souls, and i like the patron being this sinister sounding god thing etc with a kinda creepy moon face
Personally, I played like 500 hrs of Smite and that was mainly in Assault which means one lane, randomized gods, and no returning to base to heal so it was basically sink or swim team fights the entire time. You might like it more just a suggestion
19:00 you can check enemy items and stats by holding tab and hovering your mouse over their portrait, same with teammates.Also if you open the shop, you can check your outgoing damage and their sources to see what is killing you
I certainly agree that gamers should try to branch out, and especially play a genre they don't like just to give it a fair shake. Not to look for ammo to support one's dislike of the genre, but to try to see what others love about it. When you can appreciate everyone's kind of games, the whole community of gaming in general can thus become united.
I disagree. The primary purpose of branching out and trying a genre you aren't into should be to learn more about it to hate on it from a point of knowledge rather than ignorance. "Hatred" born of ignorance is not true hatred, merely fear of the unknown that registers as anger when the mind processes its fight-or-flight response. One must become knowledgeable of subjects they despise in order to properly refine and temper their contempt. Genuine hatred means being well informed on a subject matter but rejecting it and opposing everything it stands for. If on the VERY rare occasion that one ends up somewhat appreciating the thing one is trying out then that is an unusually pleasant surprise. Don't go into an overly optimistic habit of assuming that will happen often though, you will be setting yourself up for disappointment.
it reminds me a lot of the dota 2 beta days, the skills had placeholder pngs of microsoft paint shidtposts, random soundbytes for various sfx, charaters that had like one layer of texture or modeling. this game's gonna go thru a lot of cosmetic surgery and itll be great that so many people get to experience it thru all of its changes. more peole get to get hooked on a valve game that has 2mb updates every hour!
@@flmalegre the anime juggernaut replacement mods, male or female hahah tinys big banana or watermelon tidehunter! i miss swapping out announcers the most
I just know that Woolie could give us goated content even if he can't aim for shit, as long as he manages to master the movement, because he was allegelled nice with it on Titanfall 2, and now that the game has wall jumps paired with jump-slides jump-dash-slides, so it is a matter of time they add wall running, so he is at time to practice the basics
28:36 I'll bring you one up, Dota 2. You can go find stuff like the placeholder images for the skills in which people didnt like early on because didn't felt like it was dota 32:05 From the top of my head, Pat... The only item that could be dropped from the courier is the Divine Rapier, any other item stays inside the courier when is killed.
this is the first moba where I absolutely despise the laning phase and want to start roaming ASAP. I've always had the opposite problem where I love the push and pull of laning, but once thats over I don't know what to do to push advantage/recover. Here I just want it to be over with so I can start catapulting myself through the jungle jumping people out of position and start teaming up with people for plays.
As someone whose first intro to MOBAs proper was DotA 2, Pat's insistence that the couriers delivering your item as an insane level of complexity is so silly to me. You literally can buy your items from anywhere and click one button to have a thing bring it to you with no further input from you. Like, yeah, it can be killed, but 1: if you're not wildly out of position in the moment that it's coming in to approach you, that will be relevant like 1% of the time (unless the specific character Bounty Hunter happens to be popular at the time, which I will give it to Pat that that's a whole thing that is sometimes relevant to your average player), and 2: your items do not drop off of it when it dies (with the exception of two very specific items that low-level players won't be fucking with anyways), you just lose access to whatever items were on it at the time for a couple minutes. For me, when I tried League, I was like "I have to go back to base EVERY TIME I want to buy ANYTHING??" because that shit flabberghasted me and felt like it completely killed the flow of the game.
The death penalty is really small for Deadlock right now so I'd recommend you just get in there and fight more. It's not uncommon to see top souls be someone with many deaths in high MMR. Mo+Krill, Lash, Yamato are really PvP oriented combat characters. I also really disagree about Pat's "early"/placeholder comment. There are ten thousand dollar tournaments being ran for Deadlock already! I really doubt troopers, guardians and walkers will get changed much. Some heroes and neutrals need/been confirmed to have a bit of change.
I'm thinking the map needs cleaning, there could be some more heroes, and then do a final pass on aesthetics and bugs and we could be way cleaner than most games that are released.
Everything you Just said was wrong. A buddy of mine is consistently twice as many souls as anyone else, and it's not from throwing himself at enemies it's from landing his souls, getting creep camps and denying enemy souls. Furthermore, no, seriously, multiple characters will be completely revised. They Just completely revised the entire map like, 3 weeks ago. Everything about the game isnt Just subJect to change it's almost guaranteed to.
@@The-toast What? Your statement supports what I said. Kills and deaths don't give that many souls until lategame in current iteration. Also they didn't "completely revise" the map, they just added some roofs, ropes, and backhalls to spawn. There's people that come back from a break and have no problem.
@@Unfamous2423 Yeah. I can't wait until they touch up the home base a bit because it's ugly, and you fight there a LOT. Make sure you submit all feedback on the forums (even though they're probably working on a lot of stuff already)
@@TheWeapon33 Oh I thought you meant many deaths as in they were diving for kills but no, they added elevation to a map that was previously completely flat. the total walkable surface area nearly doubled with the patch that brought Jump pads and upstairs nooks and crannies
Sounds like Woolie wants to play Battleborn. A ton of PVP in that game, simpler shop, cool melee characters, etc. Even has the ability upgrades that change them rather than just % increases
Having played a ton of Moba, i think the core hook of Moba is the progression. Yes, your character has a kit that's unlocked at level 6, but you're still slowly building your character up throughout the game as you get more gold to purchase items. And then this whole progression gets multiplied by having the entire team progress together throughout the game and unlock combos and strategy. League actually does this the weakest of all the popular mobas, while DotA is probably the deepest into this progression system. It's very similar to playing a roguelike actually, you start every game , pick your favourite character, and presented with a problem. You solve that problem by building into a specific hero power fantasy and win the game. For example, if I'm playing dynamo, I can build way lean into his gun damage, and become a traditional gun carry that plays for range and output consistent high bullet damage. OR I can WAY lean into his ult to pull off massive double Zarya-grav wombo combo with my team because somebody else on my team already has the gun damage duty covered. Which leads into the contrast between moba and hero shooter. Overwatch, to me, feels like it has very little in terms of in-match progression. Every hero starts the same, and end the match the same. Yes, you have your duty to perform your role, and your performance contribution dictates the match, but the actual player agency is not as big as a moba because as big of a player as I could be, you're still bound to your base hero capability and it's balanced "fairly" vs my teammates and my enemies. Rarely you're able to literally solo carry the game even IF you're the best player in the lobby. In Mobas however, if I'm truly skilled, I can snowball my lead through a multitude of system ( itemization, multiple lanes, split pushing, different winning strategy), and have my character WAY ahead of everybody else. If my character allows me to, I can literally 1v9 or 1v11 the entire lobby and win it through my sheer effort, even if the worst player in the lobby is on my team. It's not common, but it's way more possible than Hero shooters allow it to be.
Woolie probably wouldn't like jungling or top, because engaging with the pve is necessary for both of those strategies. What Woolie REALLY needs to try is support. You don't even touch minions or jungle camps, your job is engaging with the enemy and managing macro elements. Idk if supports are a thing in deadlock, tho
Sparkette: a big problem it thinks woolie is facing is the unfamiliarity with the genre. After like my first 3 matches, as soon as it hits 1k souls, it is harassing the enemy HARD while keeping trap of last hitting. Getting creeps is super important, but equally as important is harrassing your opponent and preventing them from getting creeps, the best way is by death, the worst way is by driving them to back. Not sure how many kills woolie usually gets, but we usually get 10-15 if it fought good opponents, and 25+ if it played against bad opponents.
Pat is right that Dota 2 is one of, if not the most, crazy complex games you will ever play. But saying that the enemy can take your items off the courier if they kill it is crazy talk. As an ardent dota player, it is a difficult game to get into, but you don't need to master, or even interact with, all the games mechanics to have fun with it and it's an incredibly rewarding game to learn and play. I love Deadlock, and it's a great game in it's own right, but I'm also hoping it can acts a gateway drug to mobas and get more people into dota, which I think is one of the best designed games ever.
For me, I bounced off LoL when I tried to get into it with friends at two different points in time, but I actually feel like I can get into Deadlock if it stays relevant with my friends. It definitely feels way more beginner friendly. Maybe that's just because it's still pretty early so everyone's still figuring things out and there's also a lot of newer players giving it a try who are around my skill level, but I reckon there's more to it. Items are pretty straightforward and do pretty much what you can infer from their names, so I feel like even if I don't know at all what I'm doing and don't have time to read through stuff because I need to get back in my lane already, I can still make a decent guess as to what will be effective depending on what I want. Plus the fact that there is no resource management for abilities, so I can feel free to just use whatever on a character I haven't played before and figure it out from there. Otherwise my OCD kicks in and I feel like I can't use abilities unless I know I really need them, and then I fumble around with being too conservative or too liberal because I don't actually know when that is.
gotta remember valve games have fucked up before and died cough artifact cough They did make the fatal mistake of charging like 20 bucks or something on launch I think though
Am I the only one thinking Deadlock looks and feels like what a Bioshock Infinite Multiplayer would have been? And was from the Multiverse where Infinite was GOOD/Not-Racist?!
I do see Woolie fiending for some some top lane, but specifically in a meta with real short game lengths. Like he'd be at his happiest in a world where you and the other guy play neutral for 15-20 minutes, then you all group up and one team walks into the other's base before the clock strikes 25.
There was a game a while back that was League inspired but it was basically just a combat arena where you’d fight against an enemy over multiple rounds. I can’t for the life of me remember the name but it was league combat with no laning
i would argue Vampire Survivors is the only thing that came out and let you fuck around WAY WAY WAY into the early stages of development that's been successful from that early point.
i think that just like fighting games moba's is one of those genres everyone should play atleast a bit, just enough to learn the lessons. becouse those lessons will probably stick with you forever. like in fighting games the lessons of footsies, mindgames, combo's, setplay. all that good stuff that will probably help you in nearly all other games. moba's does someting similar with like gamesense, timings, teamplay, when to go in and when to play it safe. like when you have played some fighting games you will forever have learned the lessons of footsies and spacing. and in moba's you will forever have learned the lessons of "how can i make this fair fight unfair for my enemies" what can i do to tip the scales in my favour. and in moba's for example that would be things like buying items to counter what your enemy is doing or empower yourself, and ganking people to help turn your teammates fair fight into an unfair fight. now lets take that last lesson and use it in fighting games, lets say a tag fighter. with the lessons someone has learned from moba's they can now go to a tag fighter and their brain thinks "how can i best use my assist or tag to "gank" my enemy and turn this fair fight into an unfair one. when and how is the best time for me to call in my buddy and wreck this guy's day."
"The way i talk about fighting games makes some people anti-fighting games" Well I'm glad he's aware I guess, I have never agreed with a single fighting game take Woolie has ever said. Like I know we like to joke about Crazy Talk but honestly Woolie is the one that's more consistently wrong to me.
Woolie using Marvel Rivals as frequent references is causing me to question what Marvel Rivals even is. I thought it was just another Overwatch with Marvel characters. I get the similarities, being that each team is picking from a character roster, and there are picks and counter picks. Does Rivals even have NPCs and character leveling? Let alone the item shop.
I've not played either game yet, but I think you're image of Marvel Rivals is correct and Woolie just has a very limited pool of comparison's he can make/ draw from. As Pat said too, it's just a contemporary game. They're only similar in really basic and high abstracted ways, but they're both here right now, and Woolie can compare 3rd-person team-tactics games together without knowing much about the deeper genre conventions.
Pat this isnt how top lane has been played since 2016s tank meta. These days top lane is the "lone island, 1v1 fist fighting" lane. The boring afk farm lane these days is marksman (and even thats debatable lmfao. Technically the idea of adcs is weak early hard scaling champs who want to power farm-as all their value comes from shop items. But right now its all about aggressive adcs that at the very least CAN fight early.)
Actually ironically enough. League right now has a HUGE power farming jungler meta, where ppl pick characters in the jungle with the specific purpose of power farming for the first 3-5 mins abandoning their team till they reach a break-point in their skirmishing (such as getting an ultimate or cc spell, or even just buying a certain item that synergizes with the pick so strongly) But I do agree that woolie would probs prefer support or jungle. Their whole schick in league is that these roles are all about roaming around the map and shutting ppl down. It's p common for ppl to main A ROLE and have a rose gallery of picks to choose from based on the team comps on both sides
And too all the league players who say "no tanks are still a thing" ya no shit, they didn't delete them. But it's a fact that since 2018, fighters and bruisers have DOMINATED the meta. Especially in the top and jungle role. It's been a fight-fest skirmishing clown fiesta for over 5 years now. And no, we both know ksante doesn't count. Bro presses R, and leesin kicks a teammate thru a fucking wall and becomes death incarnate lmfao that's like calling gnar a tank cause mega gnar gets beefy 😂
Mobas are actually a fun genre. Pretty much the only thing that kept me from becoming a full time LoL player was the lack of map layout variety. Seeing the same map and doing the same farming process every single game was definitely not for me.
Woolie may be ok with Jungle, but it sounds like Bottom would be his happiest place. I don't know how vision has evolved, it used to be a nightmare, but the carry/support dynamic and 4 players in lane, with a potential for jungles and mid to crash and create early 8 person team fights,is constant interaction. It sounds like Woolie would just want to go with an aggressive playmaker - A Cranky or Thresh. Or a constant harasser like Miss Fortune or Lux. Or a unit that can combine the two like Taric or Sona. The issue is, because it's a 2 person lane, and the Carry is an important role that is easily fucked up, especially if there is a mismatch between playstyles, how you feel playing these games out is going to vary so wildly as you get paired with all sorts of skill leveled players. From feeders, to farmers, to vision ignorers and overpushers to defensive new players that don't understand last hitting, to monsters that turn every play (even bad ones) in to major victories that push to the opponent base by the 14m mark. He probably also would have preferred ARAM or Dominion. But they deadmoded Dominion for some stupid reason.
@@DeliriumTrigger2 There aren't any, but on the flip side you have audio cues and can see pretty far away. I'm pretty sure you can see an enemy player at a distance even if they're not popping up on the map, and you can hear Haze even when she's stealth and can react accordingly.
Woolie saying he doesn’t know when to take a fight and pursue his enemy leaving lane sounds like he just needs a good jungle on comms so he can know when to chase and gank and get that dude on a timer.
@WoolieVersus , please try Smite or Smite 2. I think it may be more up your alley for what you have been saying about Deadlock. Smite has full controller support for PC or console too I have an Alpha code for Smite 2 if you want it.
I said it on the last video but I'll say it again, even from the closed beta this game plays fundamentally nothing like Dota. You focus your creeps, you push your lane, but at any time you can Just go to a different lane, if you think someone's out of position you can murder them, smart use of your abilities trumps building perfectly, sometimes you can get away with Just not reading your items. Like all of the bullshit for a Moba is Just... optional. Do whatever you want lmao.
It feels like applies issue is he would rather this be a hero shooters which is fine Also the first look valve game vs 1.0 bs current can apply to all there fucking games
Making characters with brute forced synergies is lame and takes away from player expression, when the game just tells you if you wanna play X you really need to pick Y it usually ends up terrible
@@joaocreature Oh is that so? I never actually tried. My friend does have it, but i just got done doing a bunch of dota, and want to focus on something that isn't a moba for once.
I don't think this is a fair assessment -- he's WAY into fighting games, after all, and I'd definitely call fighting games complex at the levels he plays them at. There's different types of complexity that get processed different ways, and he's just not into the model MOBAs use.
@@InchonDM See that's the thing about Woolie. The way he talks about competitive games that aren't fighting games, I'm getting more and more convinced that the only reason he likes fighting games in the first place is because he grew up with them. I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that in a alternate universe, Woolie with the exact same personality grew up playing games other than fighting games, then played them now and did this segment on the podcast, and came to the same conclusion he came to on Deadlock.
Such an unfair assessment, Woolie loves games with depth and many of the games he doesn’t like are due to them capping the complexity. He wanted Sifu to have a training mode so he could grind out the combat system
It’s fine if Woolie says he doesn’t like MOBAs, because at least he sounds like he knows what he’s talking about now.
Considering how unhinged a lot of moba fans are, I'd trust Woolie's word over theirs with or without the experience.
The controller thing demonstrates the difference between "supported" and "possible" in software. You *can* use a controller to do most things in the game. They don't *want* you to do that because it's not *all* of the things in the game yet. But at the same time, they're not going to stop you because it's your controller.
I also imagine they want this playable on the Steam Deck, so controller support is pretty much guaranteed at some point. Just not now.
"playing footsies with your words"
... brilliant.
“7 Hours of Deadlock,” AKA “Twice as Long as Anyone Put Into Concord.”
"Twice as long" is a stretch.
They likely played 20 minutes at BEST
Twice as much time as I knew about concord before it died
What do you mean Sony put in 8 years.
Cumulative, maybe.
Saying Woolie likes Jungle-ing
FEELS like I'm going to get my ass kicked
Probably
There are a lot of creatures in the Jungle. Also it can be called Woods. I wonder how he feels about Diablo or other monkey-clickers?
Lets all play footsies with our words here
Nah I see it,
BUT but but but but
It's predicated on really aggressive / pro-active / early game junglers being meta. Like he'd find an AFK jungler to be the most toxic shit in the world to play.
The Race War starts now...?
I am starting to feel bad for Woolie about how much preemptive apologizing he is doing. I get why, though. I understand he is trying something new, and he is using what he is familiar with to communicate his experiences. So, some thoughts might not come out that well. Then you get the people that he is having to do all this pre-apologizing for...
I've been saying for years that I hate that they do everything on stream now. It can't be healthy to have hundreds of 14 year olds scream at you in real time when you say any little thing.
@@Kango234 they are talking about mobas the people yelling at them are more likely to be grown adults than 14 year olds
@@catantcha99 You know what, fair enough.
Woolie kinda cares too much about what people think, I feel. Like half the comments I saw in the previous Deadlock video was people complaining about Pat explaining MOBAs wrong, rather than lashing at Woolie, but still. I guess it's easier for Pat, having incorporated "Being Wrong About Stuff" into his online persona.
People say they want time to kill to be short in mobas but then the majority of the most hated champs in LoL are Assasins and burst mages who can burst anyone but tanks in less than 2 seconds.
Sounds like Woolie needs an ARAM mode
I think Woolie's misunderstanding is that the enjoyment of a game like Dota 2 and Deadlock is much more centered around the power fantasy of your individual character and working to achieve that fantasy than it is about winning teamfights and objectives, that is definitely an aspect of it and its fine if he likes objective based hero shooters more because of their emphasis on teamfighting but that is what I think is the main difference. I think a shift in mentality towards "How can I make my character as strong as possible through farm and smart skirmishing" and then reaping the benefits of smart play is how you find enjoyment
29:42 I would say crazy talk strikes again, but the verticality thing has already been established possibly months earlier. There's movement tech already guys. Heck there are even several movement items already (carpet, teleport, leap).
That has nothing to do with Crazy Talk, that's just Pat saying shit confidently when he has no actual idea about anything as is usually the case. Not even the lone occurrence in this video.
@@nhojryadSo Crazy Talk
@@nhojryad Funny how in both Deadlock videos Woolie talks like he's treading on a minefield trying not to be wrong to not upset people, while Pat just confidently talks out of his ass and doesn't give a shit about being wrong about half the things he's saying.
So Ivy has:
- Cool character design
- Cute spunky personality
- Really wholesome backstory
- Loadout that lends for some stupidly strong teamwork moments
Yeah, I guess that explains why she has a ton of fanart.
Maybe this sounds crazy, but I don't really want the Marvel Rivals system that woolie is talking about where certain characters have explicit bonuses with each other. I think it's kinda lame when the game just tells you "these are the characters that have synergy together". I think it's a lot cooler when those synergies happen naturally through the mechanics of the characters because it leaves a lot more room for experimentation and discovery, instead of it just being dictated to you by the game. I also think it would be really frustrating with the pick system deadlock has implemented currently, but maybe that's more of an issue with the system.
There's a seriously different tone when the game tells you what to do, even if it's just a nudge or a tip. No matter how you formulate it, the game saying it sounds like it's something you HAVE TO do, at least for me.
In my opinion, even when you're not actually punching other players you're always still playing PvP in a dota-like. The decisions you make outside fights are always geared towards pressuring your opponents (ideally). Something like shoving a lane is like throwing a fireball in a fighting game - you're forcing the opponent to make a more narrow set of decisions that you'll hopefully be able to take advantage of. Or you might be farming for an item to counter a specific ability - which the opponent may also be thinking about and farming their own counter in turn. Everything you're doing is still ultimately about fighting the other guys, even if it's sometimes indirect.
he doesnt have enough experience to know this yet, but i think from a conceptual standpoint Woolie would love the entire format of mobas
Woolie needs to come to the understanding that everything that isn't directly trading blows with an enemy is neutral and that he is playing footsies
@Vanity0666 Woolie doesnt need to do anything. Sure you can twist and come up with ways to explain that you're still actually fighting someone when it comes to the PVE stuff but the reality is he has played games without the PVE parts and just likes that feedback more.
I doubt any amount of hoops or explanations of the system is going to change that he just prefers 1 over the other, and when given the option of which one to play hes going to choose the one that ticks all his boxes
It is so weird that Round and Wrong is more Open to New Things than Tall Old Weeb is.
Back in my day they were called Chewie and Fuckface
Pat doesn't have deadly keyboard alergies like Woolie.
He played 7 hours of a game from a genre he doesn't care about. I'd say he's open to it he just doesn't like what he's experienced that much.
Round And Wrong. That's perfect.
@@doremiancleff1508 I genuinely do not understand how he can play games as he does. The Absolute Frankenstein Freak of a settup he used for Half-Life makes me want to Vomit.
One of the worst things I've heard about Deadlock, and probably what would absolutely kill it in Woolie's eyes, is that it gets LESS fun the better petiole get on it. More focus on cooldown management and stuns seems like the exact opposite thing he wants in the game, so I can't see him ever hopping on fully
Unfortunately stuns and CC are part and parcel of the genre, otherwise people will just build tank and be unkillable.
6:36 That happens pre-match with picks and bans, which is in the competitive format and is currently not in yet, but will likely be in the future.
Deadlock tricks you into playing like a shooter, but when your brain realizes it's a MOBA, then you can make better moves.
Like uninstalling it.
(I'm joking, I actually like the game, but I couldn't help myself)
This sounds unbelievably lame
Ya know what's funny? The things Woolie complained about that he doesn't like about MOBA's.
Battleborn addressed in its gameplay. Can mix Abilities for the situation. No shopping because you go in with premade set of Items you have to earn cash to activate. In one Gamemode there's a single lane.
Much more digestible for the MOBA starter to dip their foot in.
I was thinking the exact same thing. Also a lot more PVP in battleborn too
Concord fell into a ditch and died of starvation so deadlock could walk
It didn’t have long enough to starve, it simply tripped and died
As a big fan of Dota 2, I actually found Deadlock to be a lot more difficult. Not only do you have to keep an eye out for the typical decision making and strategizing of a MOBA, but now every shot is a skill shot. You have a lot less information available because it's a third person shooter, you don't have an overhead view of the whole map, so it's much easier to get ambushed and caught. I'm getting the hang of it, but it's very complex.
i love deadlock's aesthetic and designs, its so clean, cool and classy, the characters are so distinct and recognisable, theyre cool but still kinda quirky and it all has an edge to it, all the occult, mystery, supernatural elements, collecting souls, and i like the patron being this sinister sounding god thing etc with a kinda creepy moon face
I'm still sad gigantic is yet again dead because it's a good shooter moba
I was so excited when it got re released only to be immediately disappointed
Personally, I played like 500 hrs of Smite and that was mainly in Assault which means one lane, randomized gods, and no returning to base to heal so it was basically sink or swim team fights the entire time. You might like it more just a suggestion
There's a gammode in lol that's similar called aram and woolie would for sure enjoy that more
19:00 you can check enemy items and stats by holding tab and hovering your mouse over their portrait, same with teammates.Also if you open the shop, you can check your outgoing damage and their sources to see what is killing you
I certainly agree that gamers should try to branch out, and especially play a genre they don't like just to give it a fair shake. Not to look for ammo to support one's dislike of the genre, but to try to see what others love about it. When you can appreciate everyone's kind of games, the whole community of gaming in general can thus become united.
I disagree.
The primary purpose of branching out and trying a genre you aren't into should be to learn more about it to hate on it from a point of knowledge rather than ignorance.
"Hatred" born of ignorance is not true hatred, merely fear of the unknown that registers as anger when the mind processes its fight-or-flight response.
One must become knowledgeable of subjects they despise in order to properly refine and temper their contempt.
Genuine hatred means being well informed on a subject matter but rejecting it and opposing everything it stands for.
If on the VERY rare occasion that one ends up somewhat appreciating the thing one is trying out then that is an unusually pleasant surprise. Don't go into an overly optimistic habit of assuming that will happen often though, you will be setting yourself up for disappointment.
Minecraft was all placeholder art, they just ended up keeping it lol
Offlane gang
All i want to do is get swole and teamfight.
it reminds me a lot of the dota 2 beta days, the skills had placeholder pngs of microsoft paint shidtposts, random soundbytes for various sfx, charaters that had like one layer of texture or modeling. this game's gonna go thru a lot of cosmetic surgery and itll be great that so many people get to experience it thru all of its changes. more peole get to get hooked on a valve game that has 2mb updates every hour!
Rip Dota 2 modding
It was a blast while it lasted
@@flmalegre the anime juggernaut replacement mods, male or female hahah tinys big banana or watermelon tidehunter! i miss swapping out announcers the most
@@LaughsWithKnives DMX Shadow Fiend is still amazing
I keep getting confused thinking people are talking about Ratchet: Deadlocked. Like "oh it wasn't _that_ bad"
Legitimately glad Woolie is refining his gaming palate. Should help a lot when certain topics come up.
I just know that Woolie could give us goated content even if he can't aim for shit, as long as he manages to master the movement, because he was allegelled nice with it on Titanfall 2, and now that the game has wall jumps paired with jump-slides jump-dash-slides, so it is a matter of time they add wall running, so he is at time to practice the basics
28:36 I'll bring you one up, Dota 2. You can go find stuff like the placeholder images for the skills in which people didnt like early on because didn't felt like it was dota
32:05 From the top of my head, Pat... The only item that could be dropped from the courier is the Divine Rapier, any other item stays inside the courier when is killed.
this is the first moba where I absolutely despise the laning phase and want to start roaming ASAP. I've always had the opposite problem where I love the push and pull of laning, but once thats over I don't know what to do to push advantage/recover. Here I just want it to be over with so I can start catapulting myself through the jungle jumping people out of position and start teaming up with people for plays.
they also said that the deck is not supported but if you just tell the game that you're not playing on a steam deck it loads just fine
They probably aren't going to claim it's supported until it's been heavily optimized for their first part hardware
As someone whose first intro to MOBAs proper was DotA 2, Pat's insistence that the couriers delivering your item as an insane level of complexity is so silly to me. You literally can buy your items from anywhere and click one button to have a thing bring it to you with no further input from you. Like, yeah, it can be killed, but 1: if you're not wildly out of position in the moment that it's coming in to approach you, that will be relevant like 1% of the time (unless the specific character Bounty Hunter happens to be popular at the time, which I will give it to Pat that that's a whole thing that is sometimes relevant to your average player), and 2: your items do not drop off of it when it dies (with the exception of two very specific items that low-level players won't be fucking with anyways), you just lose access to whatever items were on it at the time for a couple minutes.
For me, when I tried League, I was like "I have to go back to base EVERY TIME I want to buy ANYTHING??" because that shit flabberghasted me and felt like it completely killed the flow of the game.
Basically, all this to say: DotA 2 ain't any more complicated than League, you just grew tolerant to a different poison.
also its a courier, it delivers items to you from a shop that youre not at, it makes perfect sense
The death penalty is really small for Deadlock right now so I'd recommend you just get in there and fight more. It's not uncommon to see top souls be someone with many deaths in high MMR.
Mo+Krill, Lash, Yamato are really PvP oriented combat characters.
I also really disagree about Pat's "early"/placeholder comment. There are ten thousand dollar tournaments being ran for Deadlock already! I really doubt troopers, guardians and walkers will get changed much. Some heroes and neutrals need/been confirmed to have a bit of change.
I'm thinking the map needs cleaning, there could be some more heroes, and then do a final pass on aesthetics and bugs and we could be way cleaner than most games that are released.
Everything you Just said was wrong.
A buddy of mine is consistently twice as many souls as anyone else, and it's not from throwing himself at enemies it's from landing his souls, getting creep camps and denying enemy souls.
Furthermore, no, seriously, multiple characters will be completely revised. They Just completely revised the entire map like, 3 weeks ago. Everything about the game isnt Just subJect to change it's almost guaranteed to.
@@The-toast What? Your statement supports what I said. Kills and deaths don't give that many souls until lategame in current iteration. Also they didn't "completely revise" the map, they just added some roofs, ropes, and backhalls to spawn. There's people that come back from a break and have no problem.
@@Unfamous2423 Yeah. I can't wait until they touch up the home base a bit because it's ugly, and you fight there a LOT. Make sure you submit all feedback on the forums (even though they're probably working on a lot of stuff already)
@@TheWeapon33 Oh I thought you meant many deaths as in they were diving for kills
but no, they added elevation to a map that was previously completely flat. the total walkable surface area nearly doubled with the patch that brought Jump pads and upstairs nooks and crannies
Give me the April Fools podcast where Woolie and Pat talk about the news by ONLY referencing fighting games
Is Valve starting to relearn that if they make games, people will play them?
Sounds like Woolie wants to play Battleborn. A ton of PVP in that game, simpler shop, cool melee characters, etc. Even has the ability upgrades that change them rather than just % increases
woolie might enjoy something like league's aram mode
most people should play the tutorial of dota 2, just so they see what other players are willing to put up with and what devs can request of players
Having played a ton of Moba, i think the core hook of Moba is the progression. Yes, your character has a kit that's unlocked at level 6, but you're still slowly building your character up throughout the game as you get more gold to purchase items. And then this whole progression gets multiplied by having the entire team progress together throughout the game and unlock combos and strategy. League actually does this the weakest of all the popular mobas, while DotA is probably the deepest into this progression system.
It's very similar to playing a roguelike actually, you start every game , pick your favourite character, and presented with a problem. You solve that problem by building into a specific hero power fantasy and win the game. For example, if I'm playing dynamo, I can build way lean into his gun damage, and become a traditional gun carry that plays for range and output consistent high bullet damage. OR I can WAY lean into his ult to pull off massive double Zarya-grav wombo combo with my team because somebody else on my team already has the gun damage duty covered.
Which leads into the contrast between moba and hero shooter. Overwatch, to me, feels like it has very little in terms of in-match progression. Every hero starts the same, and end the match the same. Yes, you have your duty to perform your role, and your performance contribution dictates the match, but the actual player agency is not as big as a moba because as big of a player as I could be, you're still bound to your base hero capability and it's balanced "fairly" vs my teammates and my enemies. Rarely you're able to literally solo carry the game even IF you're the best player in the lobby. In Mobas however, if I'm truly skilled, I can snowball my lead through a multitude of system ( itemization, multiple lanes, split pushing, different winning strategy), and have my character WAY ahead of everybody else. If my character allows me to, I can literally 1v9 or 1v11 the entire lobby and win it through my sheer effort, even if the worst player in the lobby is on my team. It's not common, but it's way more possible than Hero shooters allow it to be.
Woolie probably wouldn't like jungling or top, because engaging with the pve is necessary for both of those strategies. What Woolie REALLY needs to try is support. You don't even touch minions or jungle camps, your job is engaging with the enemy and managing macro elements. Idk if supports are a thing in deadlock, tho
Sparkette: a big problem it thinks woolie is facing is the unfamiliarity with the genre. After like my first 3 matches, as soon as it hits 1k souls, it is harassing the enemy HARD while keeping trap of last hitting. Getting creeps is super important, but equally as important is harrassing your opponent and preventing them from getting creeps, the best way is by death, the worst way is by driving them to back. Not sure how many kills woolie usually gets, but we usually get 10-15 if it fought good opponents, and 25+ if it played against bad opponents.
Pat is right that Dota 2 is one of, if not the most, crazy complex games you will ever play. But saying that the enemy can take your items off the courier if they kill it is crazy talk. As an ardent dota player, it is a difficult game to get into, but you don't need to master, or even interact with, all the games mechanics to have fun with it and it's an incredibly rewarding game to learn and play. I love Deadlock, and it's a great game in it's own right, but I'm also hoping it can acts a gateway drug to mobas and get more people into dota, which I think is one of the best designed games ever.
For me, I bounced off LoL when I tried to get into it with friends at two different points in time, but I actually feel like I can get into Deadlock if it stays relevant with my friends. It definitely feels way more beginner friendly. Maybe that's just because it's still pretty early so everyone's still figuring things out and there's also a lot of newer players giving it a try who are around my skill level, but I reckon there's more to it. Items are pretty straightforward and do pretty much what you can infer from their names, so I feel like even if I don't know at all what I'm doing and don't have time to read through stuff because I need to get back in my lane already, I can still make a decent guess as to what will be effective depending on what I want.
Plus the fact that there is no resource management for abilities, so I can feel free to just use whatever on a character I haven't played before and figure it out from there. Otherwise my OCD kicks in and I feel like I can't use abilities unless I know I really need them, and then I fumble around with being too conservative or too liberal because I don't actually know when that is.
10 years ago I used to lament that nobody in the SBFC talked about Dota 2, now my wish has sorta been granted
gotta remember valve games have fucked up before and died cough artifact cough
They did make the fatal mistake of charging like 20 bucks or something on launch I think though
Am I the only one thinking Deadlock looks and feels like what a Bioshock Infinite Multiplayer would have been? And was from the Multiverse where Infinite was GOOD/Not-Racist?!
Huh?
@@krodmandoon3479 it has SKYRAILS and SPOOKY GIRLS WITH POWERS.
now Woolie better surprise pat by saying he spent 7 hours on Pokemon Unite
ivy is best deadlock!
Would.
But how much Merfight have y'all played in the past year?
More MOBA talk, yippee 🥳
I do see Woolie fiending for some some top lane, but specifically in a meta with real short game lengths. Like he'd be at his happiest in a world where you and the other guy play neutral for 15-20 minutes, then you all group up and one team walks into the other's base before the clock strikes 25.
There was a game a while back that was League inspired but it was basically just a combat arena where you’d fight against an enemy over multiple rounds. I can’t for the life of me remember the name but it was league combat with no laning
@@SnowyJop battlerite is what you're looking for.
i would argue Vampire Survivors is the only thing that came out and let you fuck around WAY WAY WAY into the early stages of development that's been successful from that early point.
i think that just like fighting games moba's is one of those genres everyone should play atleast a bit, just enough to learn the lessons. becouse those lessons will probably stick with you forever.
like in fighting games the lessons of footsies, mindgames, combo's, setplay. all that good stuff that will probably help you in nearly all other games.
moba's does someting similar with like gamesense, timings, teamplay, when to go in and when to play it safe.
like when you have played some fighting games you will forever have learned the lessons of footsies and spacing.
and in moba's you will forever have learned the lessons of "how can i make this fair fight unfair for my enemies" what can i do to tip the scales in my favour. and in moba's for example that would be things like buying items to counter what your enemy is doing or empower yourself, and ganking people to help turn your teammates fair fight into an unfair fight.
now lets take that last lesson and use it in fighting games, lets say a tag fighter. with the lessons someone has learned from moba's they can now go to a tag fighter and their brain thinks "how can i best use my assist or tag to "gank" my enemy and turn this fair fight into an unfair one. when and how is the best time for me to call in my buddy and wreck this guy's day."
I tried one game with controller, but it felt too bad. Ill try it again when controller gets full support.
"I need to play it so THEN I can shit on it." Is already more work than 50% 'real' game reporters do.
lol 50%
lmao, even
Exactly!
Woolie’s so ethical in his JOURNALISM
Me with elden ring
"The way i talk about fighting games makes some people anti-fighting games"
Well I'm glad he's aware I guess, I have never agreed with a single fighting game take Woolie has ever said. Like I know we like to joke about Crazy Talk but honestly Woolie is the one that's more consistently wrong to me.
Woolie using Marvel Rivals as frequent references is causing me to question what Marvel Rivals even is. I thought it was just another Overwatch with Marvel characters. I get the similarities, being that each team is picking from a character roster, and there are picks and counter picks. Does Rivals even have NPCs and character leveling? Let alone the item shop.
I've not played either game yet, but I think you're image of Marvel Rivals is correct and Woolie just has a very limited pool of comparison's he can make/ draw from. As Pat said too, it's just a contemporary game. They're only similar in really basic and high abstracted ways, but they're both here right now, and Woolie can compare 3rd-person team-tactics games together without knowing much about the deeper genre conventions.
Pat this isnt how top lane has been played since 2016s tank meta. These days top lane is the "lone island, 1v1 fist fighting" lane. The boring afk farm lane these days is marksman (and even thats debatable lmfao. Technically the idea of adcs is weak early hard scaling champs who want to power farm-as all their value comes from shop items. But right now its all about aggressive adcs that at the very least CAN fight early.)
Actually ironically enough. League right now has a HUGE power farming jungler meta, where ppl pick characters in the jungle with the specific purpose of power farming for the first 3-5 mins abandoning their team till they reach a break-point in their skirmishing (such as getting an ultimate or cc spell, or even just buying a certain item that synergizes with the pick so strongly) But I do agree that woolie would probs prefer support or jungle. Their whole schick in league is that these roles are all about roaming around the map and shutting ppl down. It's p common for ppl to main A ROLE and have a rose gallery of picks to choose from based on the team comps on both sides
And too all the league players who say "no tanks are still a thing" ya no shit, they didn't delete them. But it's a fact that since 2018, fighters and bruisers have DOMINATED the meta. Especially in the top and jungle role. It's been a fight-fest skirmishing clown fiesta for over 5 years now. And no, we both know ksante doesn't count. Bro presses R, and leesin kicks a teammate thru a fucking wall and becomes death incarnate lmfao that's like calling gnar a tank cause mega gnar gets beefy 😂
So proud of you keeping your common sense and decency after playing a moba for that long, Woolie. Such a hellish eternity has broken lesser men.
Long time Jungle main and yeah it's way more fun to just roam and murder people all game long
Mobas are actually a fun genre. Pretty much the only thing that kept me from becoming a full time LoL player was the lack of map layout variety. Seeing the same map and doing the same farming process every single game was definitely not for me.
Woolie may be ok with Jungle, but it sounds like Bottom would be his happiest place.
I don't know how vision has evolved, it used to be a nightmare, but the carry/support dynamic and 4 players in lane, with a potential for jungles and mid to crash and create early 8 person team fights,is constant interaction.
It sounds like Woolie would just want to go with an aggressive playmaker - A Cranky or Thresh. Or a constant harasser like Miss Fortune or Lux. Or a unit that can combine the two like Taric or Sona.
The issue is, because it's a 2 person lane, and the Carry is an important role that is easily fucked up, especially if there is a mismatch between playstyles, how you feel playing these games out is going to vary so wildly as you get paired with all sorts of skill leveled players. From feeders, to farmers, to vision ignorers and overpushers to defensive new players that don't understand last hitting, to monsters that turn every play (even bad ones) in to major victories that push to the opponent base by the 14m mark.
He probably also would have preferred ARAM or Dominion. But they deadmoded Dominion for some stupid reason.
there dont seem to be wards in Deadlock, if there are i have never seen one and dont know where to buy them in the shop
@@DeliriumTrigger2 There aren't any, but on the flip side you have audio cues and can see pretty far away. I'm pretty sure you can see an enemy player at a distance even if they're not popping up on the map, and you can hear Haze even when she's stealth and can react accordingly.
@@ansurarks the mini map shows a ton of shit as well
I don’t think “aggressive playmaker” and “constant harasser” are words I’d use to describe sona lol
@@DeliriumTrigger2
Fair enough, I just meant about DOTA/LOL MOBA's in general as Woolie was talking about what he dislikes in MOBAs.
The game really really needs a 1 lane Turbo mode or something so people can GET IN THERE
the anti fighting game listeners don't matter. i listen to this BECAUSE you talk about fighting games.
Woolie saying he doesn’t know when to take a fight and pursue his enemy leaving lane sounds like he just needs a good jungle on comms so he can know when to chase and gank and get that dude on a timer.
@WoolieVersus , please try Smite or Smite 2. I think it may be more up your alley for what you have been saying about Deadlock. Smite has full controller support for PC or console too
I have an Alpha code for Smite 2 if you want it.
I said it on the last video but I'll say it again, even from the closed beta this game plays fundamentally nothing like Dota. You focus your creeps, you push your lane, but at any time you can Just go to a different lane, if you think someone's out of position you can murder them, smart use of your abilities trumps building perfectly, sometimes you can get away with Just not reading your items.
Like all of the bullshit for a Moba is Just... optional. Do whatever you want lmao.
It feels like applies issue is he would rather this be a hero shooters which is fine
Also the first look valve game vs 1.0 bs current can apply to all there fucking games
Making characters with brute forced synergies is lame and takes away from player expression, when the game just tells you if you wanna play X you really need to pick Y it usually ends up terrible
It's very moba, but not too dota like, sadly. I wanted crazy powers but they went safe.
screw the fighitng game talk haters. im here BECOUSE we talk fighitng games and compare to fighting games here
Wish I could play it 😢
If I was friends with you on steam I'd send you an invite
Any specific reason why you can't?
@@joaocreature It's invite only. you need to be friends with someone who already has it.
I thought about that but I got my code by just asking on the subreddit so I thought it might be something else
@@joaocreature Oh is that so? I never actually tried. My friend does have it, but i just got done doing a bunch of dota, and want to focus on something that isn't a moba for once.
word collectathon
My man loves fast food. Dota is waaaaaaaaaaaay to complex for him. BG3 was too complex. To each his own.
I don't think this is a fair assessment -- he's WAY into fighting games, after all, and I'd definitely call fighting games complex at the levels he plays them at.
There's different types of complexity that get processed different ways, and he's just not into the model MOBAs use.
@@InchonDM nothing wrong with fast food. I enjoy a lot of it myself.
@@InchonDM See that's the thing about Woolie. The way he talks about competitive games that aren't fighting games, I'm getting more and more convinced that the only reason he likes fighting games in the first place is because he grew up with them.
I wouldn't be surprised if I found out that in a alternate universe, Woolie with the exact same personality grew up playing games other than fighting games, then played them now and did this segment on the podcast, and came to the same conclusion he came to on Deadlock.
Such an unfair assessment, Woolie loves games with depth and many of the games he doesn’t like are due to them capping the complexity. He wanted Sifu to have a training mode so he could grind out the combat system
@@SnowyJopThat's simplifying the learning environment no?
FWarming is boring, i'm hear to run in and shoot.
If the game matches me with people who want to win then they can complain to valve.
Woolie can't stop comparing MOBA to a poorly balanced hero shooter
Like.
Mobas are boring. 😑