I have adopted the philosophy of Rabbi Joseph H. Gelberman: "Never Instead, Always in Addition To". In other words, I take what is good and positive and add it to my practice/humanness and let go of what is not. That makes me walk on my own path without merging to any religion, group, secular or other beliefs. This approach has worked for me to continue growing.
It should be noted that when your teacher called Carl Sagan a "sociopath", the term "sociopath" has a different meaning in Scientology. In their terms, a "sociopath" is anyone who criticizes or disagrees with the Church of Scientology
yes that is true. They have an entire terminology that is upside down. Like „openminded“ which is supposedly negative because your mind is open to other thought outside of scientology
Here in Japan, Nichiren Shu is generally viewed as being a "normal" Buddhist sect that is open to everyone, while Nichiren Shoshu/Soka Gakkai are both viewed as cultish groups that reject all other forms of Buddhism as heretical (and both groups believe that members of the other group will go to hell).
@@SithGod Search for "soka gakkai", "nichiren shoshu", and "hell", and see what results come up. You will be surprised at the level of mutual hate between the two groups. Even a Nishiren Shoshu temple near me has a sign on the front warning Soka Gakkai members to repent or risk going to hell.
I was also briefly part of SGI (Soka Gakkai International). There was no mention of Buddha and any of his teachings. Everything was about the organization's president Ikeda and how much of a great man he is and how much he "loves us" (he also happens to be a political leader in Japan, go figure). Meanwhile the dude is living large, getting filthy stinking rich off of all of his followers' monthly subscriptions to his bs magazine. They always pressured me to subscribe to his magazine and to chant so that I could obtain anything, even material things. It's sad because I met some nice people there, but the brainwashing and cult feeling was overbearing. They're the Jehova's Witnesses of Buddhism
What you have written suggests a superficial understanding of SGI and Nichiren Buddhism. The teachings of Nichiren go back to the 13th century and were based on the teachings of Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha, approximately 2500 years ago. As for being "pressured" to subscribe to publications, all you needed to do was say "no" and not subscribe. Using words such as "filthy stinking rich" and "brainwashing" is unreasonable and is no way to gain credibility. If you were in fact treated unfairly the reasonable response would have been to report it to someone in a leadership position. As for Daisaku Ikeda, I wish you would do some reading about him before making such unfair comments. Using the word "cult" is easy to use indiscrimately but in this case it's basically name-calling. Calling SGI the "Jehovah's Witnesses of Buddhism" is simply ridiculous.
I remember my early contact with Tibetan Buddhism and why it possibly is so fascinating for the western mind due to it's mystical aspects which I suspect is due to the influence of Tibet's earlier Bon traditions. I recall vividly and probably to my benefit, an answer to my questioning. ..."Some people want to learn to go astral traveling with the Lamas, much easier to fly British Airways." ...lol.
I was also a member of Nichiren Shoshu (Soga Gakkai ) and had similar bizarre experiences. I was told to chant for as many hours as possible every day and not to worry about what the chant meant. They also told me that if I chanted long enough, I would get whatever material wealth or desire I wished for. I quit after a few months as the practice was all wrong and insincere to me, although I really liked some of the members. It was one of the worst religious experiences I've had and I don't think anything has changed in the practice. My advise is to stay clear from it.
Aww bummer! It strikes me that these types of Dhamma are tragically the most common. I haven't been to an SG meeting yet but there is a big one coming up here in Mexico City and reading up on it it seemed like exactly what you say: Chanting a few words someone in Japan discovered a whole lot. The other english-language Buddhism here in CDMX is Kadampa, which I tried out in Montreal and had a very similar experience. It was a chanting day and reading the actual chants (to "Green Tara", no apparent mention of Sid at all) was really depressing. They all were very precise in that "we chant and submit ourselves to Green Tara and she will be our mother and provide wealth/happiness/health in exchange for submission". Missing pretty much everything I appreciate about Sid's teachings :(
Rock Python Yes, true. They also proselytize and really pressure you to recruit new members. I had (have) an entire library of books on various Buddhist teachings and different 'schools of thought'. I also had statues and ritual paraphernalia. I am Hindu from India and am tantric practitioner (tantrika) but have also taken initiation from some Tibetan rinpoches and anyway, this Nichiren Buddhist group told me I had to discard all other teachings and realated stuffs, they told to put in the garbage. Ha! What an experience. Oh, I of course didn't throw anything away (except their invitation to join their cult)
Rock Python Yeah, it was. The priests were actually quite nice but the whole thing just gave me that feeling in the pit of my stomach. Some of the things that first attracted me to Buddhism was the lack of dogma and lack of proselytizing but this group was... different. 😉🙏🕉️🙏
Thank you, Doug. I had a minor experience with SGI in Madrid, and it fits exactly with what you say. It is a show-me-the-money cult. Unfortunately, it's not the only one in Buddhism. Metta!
I think your assessment is unfair and untrue. No one is ever asked for money when attending an SGI meeting. Furthermore, one can practice for a lifetime without contributing a cent. I suggest you look up the definition of "cult." Referring to SGI as a "cult'" is simply not accurate.
I was involved with Soka Gakkai in the early 1980's. Ultimately it was not a good experience for me. It is definitely Not the Dharma of Sidhattha Gotoma. It was probably Dausaku Ikeda's Dharma. But it is not the Buddha Dharma. The Dharma is about letting go not accumulating. The Soka Gakkai was most definitely cult-like.
@@stephaniecherry33 I'll bet this "friend" isn't acting friendly any more. SGI members routinely shun and condemn any of their fellow members who leave. And they'll never accept any explanation as reasonable - they're just like Evangelical Christians in this regard. Instead of accepting your explanation, they'll make up ridiculous, insulting excuses for why you left, as your "friend" did - you were "selfish". Or "jealous". Or maybe you were upset that you didn't get the pony you chanted for. Or you couldn't get along with your leaders. Or you couldn't accept "strict guidance" (their euphemism for a harsh scolding that you're supposed to accept with a "Thank you - may I have another?"). You might even have been mentally ill or "demon possessed" or overwhelmed with (imaginary) "fundamental darkness"!! ANYTHING to make it all YOUR FAULT that you left, because otherwise they might have to entertain the notion that there was something wrong with their precious SGI that they've all been indoctrinated to view as their very *identity* and to be willing to give their very *LIVES* for.
@@stephaniecherry33 I left SGI in 2019 after four years. I wouldn't recommend it to a heroin addict. My ultimate reason for leaving: the Gohonzon and Mystic Law failed me when I needed them the most. And no matter how much I tried to push through that, which I did for nearly two years, I could never fully trust them if they would fail me when I needed financial aid, they're likely to fail me in the event of lay off and rent being due in three days.
If you’re referring to SGI and Nichiren Buddhism, General guidance constantly encourages study and examination of the sutras and history of the practice. Chanting of words and syllables by millions around the globe links us together and sound and resonance, it’s truly not necessary to know every meaning of every word intellectually.
I sympathize with your comment. Let me say this: if you're referring to SGI, let me clarify: it is not correct to say "you don't need to know what something means, just do it." What is true: you don't need to grasp the teachings of Buddhism in order to start chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo. This is important. Why? Because no one can grasp the teachings of Buddhism right away, and one is earnestly encouraged to study Buddhism assiduously throughout one's practice. Do you see the distinction? Nam Myoho Renge Kyo has a literal superficial meaning which any Nichiren Buddhist can tell you or you can look it up. However, each syllable carries multiple meanings, which are not easy to understand immediately. The teachings of Buddhism are profound and take years of study in order to gain deeper understanding and no one ever "finishes" learning. So of course it is one's own choice whether or not to begin practicing, but if one chooses not to, it's not necessary to be hostile towards the SGI and it's members.
I've been a member to Soka Gakkai, I really love the practice, and still chant. But I know the meaning of everything that i chant, because I searched and have been studied buddhism by my own. But it is definitely a cult, I feel so sorry for the people that are there, beliving all that and dedicating their life to that, these are good people....I'm just glad that somehow I managed to be imune to the brainwash....
Soka Gakkai was originally a lay organization of Nichiren Shoshu until the latter excommunicated the group enmasse sometime in the 1990s, I think. One does not have to be a member of an organization to be a Nichiren Buddhist, and SGI certainly is not the all-encompassing representative of Nichiren Buddhism by any stretch. I enjoy being an independent practitioner and have no intention of joining ANY group; but I do admire the open-minded approach of the Nichiren Shu sect. Needless to say, there are plenty of books that explain what Nichiren Buddhism is all about (from all sects and from individuals) and one doesn't need a leader or a group to study them.
@@TheWaxworker I can't help concluding that you've never actually *read* Nichiren's supposed writings. He demanded that the government chop the heads off all the other Buddhist priests and burn their temples to the ground, so that Nichiren would be the only Buddhist game in town. He wanted *all* the power and *all* the influence and was willing to see the entire populace of Japan butchered/enslaved just to prove he was all that. Nichiren blatantly ripped off the Nembutsu chanting practice - Nichiren started out his priest career as a Nembutsu priest (certainly you're aware of that - it's in Nichiren's own writings) - and it's a bunch of nonsense. Nothing of the Nichiren practice is actually described in the Lotus Sutra; the practice consists of mindlessly repeating the name of the Lotus Sutra in archaic Chinese characters pronounced Japanese-like (real rational there) as if it's a magic spell. That's supposed to be the equivalent of reciting/copying the Lotus Sutra in its entirety. Imagine if college students thought that mindless repetitions of the titles of their course books would miraculously impart understanding of the books' contents. Do you think THAT would work?
A cult is when you are held against your will.pnly a fool would let them control their mind I been there 30years and no one controls me.i do it my way ...
What Doug said. Been there, tried that, and the sad thing is that I knew better from both past experience and formal education. If you start doing something - praying, chanting, meditating, polishing random doorknobs - and things seem to start going more your way, it is not some god, guide, guru, or teacher that is making that "benefit" happen. It is you. You changing your mindset, are doing things to make your life better, even without being conscious of doing so. There IS some hard science to support the mental and physical benefits of meditation (skip the candle), but if you have made some change and your life is starting to get better, it is not because something outside of you is doing woo-woo stuff, it is because you have made a not-necessarily-well-thought-out-plan-and/or- commitment to make the kinds of decisions to make that happen. Cooking at home instead of doing so much expensive, not so healthy dining out, not buying that mint-condition Han Solo action figure and saving the money instead, comparative rather than impulsive shopping. Ok, ok. Buying the Han Solo action figure IS an empirically proven, peer-reviewed scientific way to enlightenment. But for the most part, the benefit is coming from you, and you do not need to attend a bunch of meetings where people who don't know you will get all up in your face about what is wrong with you, and you are expected to put blind faith in some old, quite possibly dead guy who magically has a connection to you. Just saying,
Keith Payne yeah the problem is that SGI Folks believe that they can get everything simply by whishing it. You can’t alter reality trought will, you can’t get the Love of your life, Wealth and Jobs through magik
If someone was suffering from trauma and isolation and joined Bird Watchers of America, or Stamp Collectors United, or even just the Neighborhood Watch, they'd perceive a temporary improvement to their mental state because of interacting with other people and sharing a common goal. Unfortunately, SGI preys on traumatized people, claiming to be helping their "life condition", and then exploits them for free labor. They form a deep bond and feel as though they have been reborn through this group, kind of like the military does, and it's very hard for them to see they're being taken advantage of.
I was taken to a Nichiren Buddhist group in Seattle by a friend when I was first getting interested in Buddhism about 1990 (like you I found myself gravitating to a secularized form of Theravada), It was interesting but I couldn't understand why it was considered Buddhism? I still easily remember that chant...
I belonged to the SGI for a year and I would most definitely classify it as a cult. I was told when i joined that It was simply a new way of thinking and that I could belong to any religion I wanted to. Then a year later I was told if I chanted enough I would realize there was no God. Daisaku Ikeda was practically worshipped and there was even a song sung to him. We were even given a picture of him to put by our gohonzon. Then there was constantly being told you needed to go out and bring people into the practice when I'm super uncomfortable with that. You didn't do anything to help society either except chant. I was told that the poor don't need our help. They just needed to chant. And then there was the weeklong videos we had to see where they begged for money and told you all the great benefits you would get if you donated. The whole thing was super creepy. It was even creepier when I left and they kept hounding me to rejoin. I'm definitely glad to be out of there.
Intention and motivation for our actions is the ultimate ticket I think. Gosh, thank you so much for sharing this! Very interesting perspective and information.
I had almost an exact experience 40 years ago thru a martial arts instructor. After a few weeks i realized it wasn’t for me or what I was searching for. When i attempted to leave,I was harassed by several members almost on a daily basis. Finally I told the leader that if this didn’t stop I knew our county District Attorney and would be speaking with him. All harassment ceased.
Ditto. Read my recent post at top this thread. I stopped attending and they made four attempts to invite themselves to my home for a "home visit" which seemed super Jehovah's Witness like and turned me off. I was wondering if I was overreacting but now I know I was spot on. If it feels cult-like and strange, it is.
Rajneesh (later knownn as Osho) was a cult leader. I lived those days and met many Rajneeshis before he changed his name and moved to Oregon. I was very impressed by all of them. They were the "beautiful people" we were always trying to find and be in those hippie days. So I read every book I found and could afford ( in my youth I was poor ) and was fascinated by the insight and depth into world religions this man had. Also his message was very existential and psychological while showing a great degree of skepticism himself. In fact he was an atheist. So as a former christian that really was the message I was longing for. Never joined the cult but kept all his books even up to this day. That guy was absolutely brilliant and most of what he said made utter sense to any seeker who was highly educated and skeptic of the "woo woo" found among new age folks and occultists. More like J. Krishnamurti I would say. I admit I still read his books on Zen and Tao and dare say he had an impressive understanding and insight on Zen particularly and it's hard not to think when you are reading him he was not a Zen teacher. Rajneesh message still informs and helps my practice and life in remarkable ways although I am aware of the dark side of the "collective" and "social" part of Rajneesh's work. To me it was just somebody speaking to me as an individual just as Krishnamurti was.That intuition is what kept me out of the cult. A healthy degree of skepticism is always very necessary. "Test all things. Hold fast to what is good" (the christian apostle Paul)
The purpose of the chant is transformation; its benefits are vast and generally not materialistic (although prosperity comes with this transformation). I had a similar experience in my exploration of this and immediately understood that the benefits were available without joining a group. Most of the people were very nice, but the pressure to join was evident; they stopped speaking to me when they realized I was more interested in a personal, private experience. But the “leader” did show me how to chant and gave me much helpful info - whether that was leading to me joining I’m not sure, but he has since stopped speaking to me, which was disappointing; we had a lot of fun, I thought we were friends, and I was sad at the prospect that my learning hinged on some kind of indoctrination. This form of chanting is very effective and helpful, but I believe it’s a personal experience; and you will know if it’s right for you. Whenever anyone tells you aren’t worthy of something unless you follow a group, RUN.
Thanks for this video!! I knew sgi in a vulnerable moment of my life, after ending an 8-year relationship in a new country. Looking back I think that this fact made me more "easy" to be persuaded by the sgi, even though that from the beginning many things did not like me, for example, the obsession of calling Nichiren the real Budha with no real support whatsoever, ignoring the role or not giving enough importance to Shakyamuni, and most of all, the dogmatism, I had to do mental gymnastics every time I read a sgi document, all of them talk about how the sgi is the only organization that defends the "real Buddhism" and how the only and expressway to enlightenment is the sgi or Nichiren Buddhism. I think the practice of daimoku is good and it may help you in moments of your life, like everything in Buddhism, you have to live it and experiment with it for your self, but the thing is that people in the sgi have a dogmatic approach about it, they talk a lot about the real practice and the other approaches are wrong. I quit it, and know doing vipassana, I think they are responsible about people leaving the organization, they just care about getting more and more members and become kind of multinational religion or something like it, they just care about that!! Anyway thanks, I've learned a lot from watching you!
Yeah, me too. I first "met the practice" (as the Gakkai like to say) when I hit a milestone birthday and had a "what is the meaning of life moment". Then drifted away as it became weirder. Then had a bad accident a few years later and my relationship ended and I drifted back to them. now over a decade later I am finally realising how toxic the Organisation and their little, ancient, Japanese demi-god are. So many people in that Organisation know next to nothing about Buddhism, only the badly written drivel of the old Japanese man. *shudder*
@@TiberioTrip Hi! Thanks for the info. Would you mind providing a link or something for the Trancendental Meditation? I went to an SGI Temple in college ONE time and never went back and I couldn’t for the life of me remember why, but it’s probably because of the culty feel lol. I love the whole “come as you are” vibe, but I’m in a bit of tight spot and I KNOW I need something so I started looking them up again and I’m glad this video came up after someone who works for the temple sent me some videos to watch. Divinity at its finest. Anyhoo, I’d appreciate some more info! Thanks!
For those who have had bad experiences with SGI, I strongly advise you to look into the Nichiren Shu sect of Buddhism. Note that they are not Nichiren Shoshu, which is where the SGI came out of, and there are some doctrinal differences(there are basically three main schools of Nichiren Buddhism, Nichiren Shoshu, the SGI, and Nichiren Shu). Nichiren Shu does not believe that Nichiren was a Buddha and instead that he was a great bodhisattva(which is actually supported by his writings, he never proclaimed himself a Buddha), and their practices consist of chanting Namu Myoho Renge Kyo (The 'u' was left off by Shoshu and SGI, but that is the formal way to recite it and what Nichiren actually wrote in his writings), reading and reciting the Lotus Sutra in all it's part (not just two chapters), copying the sutra, and chanting the sutra both in Shingon as well as the native language of the practitioner(It's pretty far out to chant the sutra in English, unlike in SGI you'll actually start to understand the meaning, intent, and narrative of the sutra, and therefore it's teachings). Nichiren Shu is way more ecumenical than SGI or Nichiren Shoshu, they will sometimes even do sitting meditation before and after chanting the Odaimoku, along with other prayers and practices. I assure you that it is a very different experience from SGI, the difference between night and day. There are online sangha communities that might be worth looking at if you are interested. Good luck!
i was born into this soka gakkai religion and was told at a young age that this is the only religion i should practice, i was never given any answers as to why. my parents are huge and very committed practitioners. i didnt think much of it when i was young. as i grew older and learned about cults was when i got an inkling that it is one. my parents would try to covert people into this religion with the promise of material gains which is not at all what buddhism is about. what threw me off more was the members idolizing the sensei, which is another cult like sign. they brain wash people with the promise of getting whatever you pray for. i live in singapore and they even make little booklets for you to set goals on how many hours you want to chant. it seemed to me like ways to brain wash people. i have been trying to leave but my parents are too committed to let me leave.
they often step over boundaries too. when i was in isolation for chemo, they would just walk in my room without any prior warning to tell me to chant more, they gave me books about soka gakkai and beads. this was stepping wayyyyy over boundaries and when i told them i felt uncomfortable, they came anyways. they prey on people who are desperate for answers from the higher ups and desperate for material gains. they are very aggressive and will not go away unless you cut them off completely. i hear and see my parents be those people all the time and it is very annoying that i am the only one who did research from outside sources instead of only listening to whatever they teach.
I too, was born into the SGI. And I find it so bizarre and upsetting reading some of the experiences of people and how they are introduced to it. I think I am very lucky to have my father's very level headedness added to my practice of Nichiren Buddhism. I remember when we were excommunicated from the Nichiren ShoShu. It was somewhere around 1990, and I was a child still, and was very surprised. However, as I have practiced and grown up in the practice, I have seen people take this practice and twist it within the oraganization. They have used it to gain feelings of power. And have gone on 'campaigns' to get as many people as possible to 'CHANT' or participate in activities. I have seen some members take it to the point of bullying, or to the detriment of person they are trying to 'convert.' This has never been my understanding of this practice of buddhism. While many have been brought in to the practice under the guise of "Hey! Chant this, and you'll get whatever you want." It really is far beyond that, and I feel it is a disservice to use it as a 'magic wand for material gain.' I have also met some truly genuine people who practice and don't get that fanatical look in their eye, who have taught me and supported me. I have always been told by my father, if you are going to follow or practice any religion, you must have faith, practice, and study. Even if you are born into the SGI, you must find your own relationship with your practice of Nichiren Buddhism. It would break my father's heart if I were to leave the practice, but I am my own person, and he supports me whatever my choice is. As it is, I rarely attend meetings. But the end goal of this, is to find happiness, and not to harm others in the process.
I am a member of Soka Gakkai. I ran away from the organization for a decade before I became committed. Originally, It indeed felt like a cult and I felt members were pesky, weird and stepped on my boundaries. I detached from SGI, studying Nichiren Buddhism on my own as well as exploring other faiths before returning to SGI. Nichiren Buddhism resonated with me and it does help to have a community to reinforce it. Upon return, I established strong boundaries with the members. NO PHONE CALLS-period. They got it. I began practicing on my own terms. It's helped me a lot. SGI is more geared towards folks who are especially disenfranchised-People of Color, Gays, Disabled, Poor People... I think that's why people recruit as heavy as they do-they feel they just want to help people. There is no "kool aid" or "red pill". It's just chanting.
nice- i hear you i'm a reluctant sgi member-but IT Is as Toda said for the poor and disenfranchised -and it really helps- says a lot the the SGI attracts people who need the practice and is a social good- i find other buddhist modalities in the west pretty middle class and bourgeois to be honest-although great.
AS an ex-SGI (NSA) member for a decade, I can speak from experience! You have become unknowingly BRAINWASHED! My landlady has a daughter who is SGI, and OH MY GOD! Talk about cultlike symptoms of maniacal conduct, She is lost now, her brain (what is left of it is almost swimming in propaganda marinade! PLEAS GET FAR AWAY from that group and seek a deprogramming medical specialist! I have only been suckered out of my MONEY as I had inadvertenly (could not help but hear their so-called 'guidance' to their junior leaders, and they had actually ADMITTED the gohonzon and all that religious crap is naught but a 'CARROT' to entise small minded people into their fold. The REAL major crux of the organisation is their BOOKSHOP and SUPPLY CENTRE! That is their source of INCOME worldwide as to funnel into Sumitomo Bank and thus transferred to the account of their political (yes POLITICAL) off-shoot KOMEITO! YOU NEED HELP! PLEASE donät become like my landlady's crazy daughter she has been in since 1974! Shameful! There are OTHER Nichiren sects )38 sects and subsects in japan) that are more SANER, more relaxed, and RESPECT the very foundation of Buddhism that spans ALL sects inclusive of Nichiren, and are the two founding pillars of Buddhism! The Four Noble Truths, and the Eightfold Path. The Fuji mon ryo (Fuji School) are the only four sects that have REJECTED these very important tenets!
@@A_Muzik So you're studying the Lotus Sutra "more"? Have you gotten to Chapter 25 yet, where it states plainly that EVERYONE must worship Bodhisattva Quan Yin (Kannon in Japanese)? What about THAT?
I had a similar experience with SGI. I met a couple of them at an SGI information booth at a local fair. They were quite nice and I was intrigued. So I accepted their invitation to come to their house later in the week for an SGI service. There were about a dozen people there and they were all very friendly. Then we started chanting and this went on for 30 minutes. I had no idea what I was chanting or what that weird script was on the alter. Frankly I got bored with it. After we were done I asked what we just chanted and they blew off the question. I then asked what was the point of the chanting and they said to bring your heart's desire. Then one by one they started talking about how chanting healed their diseases, helped them get a new car, got them a raise, etc. It was all about getting stuff! It was a complete turn-off for me! It reminded me of the "prosperity Gospel" where they believe that God wants you to have all kinds of goodies and you just have to ask for it. I never went back. In my opinion SGI is Buddhist in name only.
Doug you just got hooked up with a weird group that's part of a larger legit organization. . . Also, I knew from day one what the chant meant and everyone was eager to tell me. However, with anything people should always do your own research before joining anything!
I know the Buddha said that there are numerous paths to enlightenment, but for me it just makes sense to stick to Early Buddhism as close as possible. It is the most tried and tested and therefore just seems like the best bet. I try to remain openminded but traditional meditation is what the buddha practiced and therefore I think anyone who calls themself a buddhist should heed his example. I also appreciate your eloquence and careful words with this sensitive subject sir. Sadhu
Thanks Grayden. I agree that the path outlined in early Buddhism is the most congenial for me as well. But yes, we should remain openminded about other approaches. Even though they may not be for us, they may be better for others. 🙏
I met some girls in Japan, by chance in the street (which is like a huge red flag/sketchy and I should have definitely been more careful, but I can't change the mistakes I've made in the past. I can only prevent things from happening in the future.) So, we exchanged contact info via a commonly used social media app, and we scheduled a time to hang out again. That time was yesterday evening. So My friend and I went to meet up with them, they brought us to Tokiwadai, and gave our names to this woman who was leading the chant, and I swear I've been indoctrinated into the "Form of Buddhism that shall not be named", I don't know if I was. The only reason is they seemed to be welcoming us in, mentioning our names and such. The two girls asked what we thought and I told them the beads and prayers reminded me a bit of Catholicism (a religion I grew up practicing all my life), and one of them seemed to be incredibly uncomfortable after I had mentioned that. The girls also invited my friend and I to an event in Saitama on Tuesday (which will be tomorrow, from the time I post this), and we just said we had other things to do, which was not a lie, but one of the girls seems insistent that I go. I find it interesting, however, it isn't a religion I am entirely interested in getting involved with at this moment in time. I'm glad to have found your video talking about this experience, because I wasn't sure if my experience was with some deep underground cult nonsense.
Thanks for your comment SoulRamen, I can't speak to your experience because I don't know who that really was, but I'd say generally "go with your gut". If it feels sketchy, leave it aside. You can always go back later if your thoughts change. FWIW when I first went to an Insight (Vipassana) center I felt immediately at home, and I've also felt quite warm and at home at Zendos, depending on who's leading. Pressure to attend is usually a red flag in my book. 🙂
The "cult which must not be named" was called NSA at the time - Nichiren Shoshu of America. It has since been renamed "Soka Gakkai International" - SGI-USA - after the leaders and the group were excommunicated by their former temple parent Nichiren Shoshu. He's talking ca. 30 years ago - 1987 - that's when I was recruited, in a state in the upper MidWest, and I can tell you it was *exactly* like what he was describing at that point. I had to wait 6 months to get my scroll because there was no priest in our state; we had to wait until the priests from the Chicago temple would road trip up to do the ceremony (with the tap on the forehead, yeah). So if a priest were in town to do a ceremony *that night*, there was DEFINITELY a big push to drag anything with a pulse in! I saw THAT, too. His recollections ring true and are absolutely *typical* for what was going on in NSA at that time. Yeah, run like hell :D
I was in the SGI for years in L.A then Minneapolis, you're spot on. There's too many stories to tell here. They use to like to check up on members by showing up at there door and giving you ,"guidance " I mailed my gohonzon back. I use to wash the walls and do free cleaning at The SGI building ,they would tell you you're working off karma by volunteering constantly there more like working for free. It's really sickening how fake the members are they reach out to you around May Contribution month telling you to give a donation.
Hi Doug. I appreciate your the honesty and diplomacy of your experience. I have over 30 years of experience with the unnamed organization of which you speak and I am aware that a lot of weird shit has happened over the years. I still feel the basic practice is valid, however, in spite of all of the bad presentation and admittedly cult-like actions taken by however well-intentioned leaders and members. I actually find that a lot of current non-organization books serve as a better introduction, such as Buddhism 3.0 and Buddhism 3.1. When the organization was connected to to the priesthood, there was a lot of insane pressure to proselytize and in my opinion in the there was a lot of Japanese vs. American culture clash and a lot of diversity issues over the years. While I think things are better now, a fellow member and I had a weird experience visiting the New York Center, and yet had a fabulous experience at the Mexico City centers. We also chanted atop the (non-Buddhist) Temple of the Sun in Teotihuacan, awesome! I only have one small argument regarding the "prosperity" message. Many people in this world are jobless or lack fortune due to internal issues, and when they can change their internal negativity, many times their environment will positively reflect back their inner transformation. When I joined almost everyone had nothing so to get a job was a good thing, etc. It's easy for those who already have fortune and privilege and can afford to take a vow of poverty or forsake the world. There. that's my little rant. I'm going to continue to enjoy your vlogs - I think you have something important to say; in some ways what you are trying to do is parallel to what the establisher of this practice (I'll call him Sun Lotus) was trying to do with his writings by sorting through the wheat and the chaff in the Buddhist teachings, however badly his intention has been distorted. Thanks.
Thanks for your kind comments, Lee. They are very interesting. I don't feel like my experience of this form of Buddhism was deep enough for me to draw any firm conclusions about its usefulness or validity. That said, the Buddha did teach that the practice of lay ethics was "good business" as they say; that is, that part of good lay practice could indeed be along the path towards gaining a proper living. The only issue is when that becomes distorted as the true aim of practice generally.
The reality is that all that "Japanese vs. American culture clash" has only gotten WORSE since Nichiren Shoshu excommunicated Daisaku Ikeda and his cult of personality; without the priests' moderating influence, it's since gone Full Ikeda 24/7. The SGI only exists to glorify and worship Ikeda, and somehow, despite the membership being mostly lower-middle-class at best, the SGI has *unlimited* money which it uses to buy up honorary degrees for Ikeda, parks and streets to name for Ikeda, lobbying local governments to establish "Daisaku Ikeda Day"s, to publish ghost-written books with Ikeda's name rubber-stamped upon them, to buy up millions upon millions of dollars of foreign real estate (the titles and ownership are held by the Soka Gakkai in Japan, which controls whatever is going to happen in and to those buildings), and to purchase millions upon millions of dollars of fine art to grace the art museum which will one day bear Ikeda's name the way all the other buildings and monuments do. If you want to be involved with glorifying and worshiping some distant nobody who has done nothing but promote himself and become obscenely wealthy while living a banana republic dictator's/billionaire's lifestyle at everyone else's expense, be my guest. Look up "Internal Reassessment Group (IRG)" to see what happened when a group of very devout SGI-USA members decided to brainstorm ways to make SGI more consistent with American cultural values and norms. Spoiler: It didn't end well - at all. The SGI is a Japanese religion for Japanese people, a virulently intolerant religion whose intention is to take over the world and impose their culture on everyone. Fortunately for us all, almost nobody wants to join a virulently intolerant Japanese religion for Japanese people, even in Japan.
I mentioned it to someone I wanted to join. Have her my number. She kept calling then her son started texting and now another guy keeps calling texting asking me to join.....
It's Ikedaism not Buddhism. I prefer mindfullness meditation now. Focussing on the breath. No beliefs. No believing im studying the highest teaching. Scientifically proven benefits. Simple. I do 2 hrs a day now. I'm free from SGI. No regrets.
Hi Doug! My reasons for exploring Buddhism (Secular) are to try and ease my 'suffering', improve my mental health, become a better person; to help me help others. I have no interest at all in making more money than I need. No interest in social climbing. I am accutely aware of how fragile and precious this 'one life' of ours is. I have been visiing my local Buddhist centre for a few years but was never at ease with the overt religiosity. They are also New Kadampa Tradition which puts me off even further. So coming across 'Secular Buddhism' has opened new doors for me. Allowing me to follow a practice I am comfortable with. I will still got to the NKT centre because I have never felt that they wanted anything from me (other than the few pounds for the meditation class) and because I believe them to be good people (even if their spiritual leader is misguided). Keep the videos coming...I find them informative and interesting. Btw any arrogance you think you have is not evident in the videos :-)
Thanks, Patrick. Yes, sometimes we have a limited number of local options and have to make do. Most sanghas of most traditions are full of perfectly decent people with whom we can practice usefully, and even if a tradition may not seem perfect for us, it can at least be interesting to spend time with them and see how they approach all these questions.
I spent most of 2023 with the NKT here in Phoenix, Arizona USA. NKT has a cult like obsession with their recently deceased leader Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche. I really got tired of hearing the monks repeat his name over and over and over, weird. I am now attending SGI-USA a few months in 2024 but I'm already getting turned off with this group and their pushy agenda. Read my story recently I published on this post.
For another viewpoint regarding the Fuji Schools of Nichiren Buddhism ... try the first 3 to 5 episodes of A Buddhist Podcast by Jason Jarrett (from the UK, now lives in Canada)
Thank you. I'm an American living in Taiwan, and there's temples (Taoist/Buddhist) everywhere. I have found that, yes chanting, "AMITOUFU" really means, "GIVE ME MONEY"... I think that motivation is a good start, you can eventually grow. But I was lucky enough to of found a good teacher out here. Thznk you got this video
@mariepeng good question, I go back n forth. We need comfort to practice, but from what I See, asking for material blessings, though needed, isn't what Buddha was aiming for. But , hey, ask and we shall receive. ✌️
This is so interesting. I am interested in cults from a psychological perspective. Usually we associate cults with Christian groups but there are high control sects from all walks of life. I was raised with the JW and got out of that. I live in Cambodia and recently I went to a vegetarian Taiwanese restaurant and the owner was a lovely elderly woman. She invited me to her temple and it was a Buddhist temple so I figured I would like to check it out for the experience. So I went and I noticed they had a strict dress code had to be a white shirt with a collar. They also had pictures and statues of other people than Buddha. The men entered on the right and the woman on the left. There were 1,000 prostration and mudras. It turned out that this was not 100% Buddhist but it was Taoist and I didn't like the deception. It had the simple tactics of experience and how this has helped your life. Then there was indoctrination class . They wanted me to sleep at the temple /school for the night and I was like I am busy I need to go back to the city. They again tried to talk me into staying and I again insisted that I had to go to take care of my dog. I didn't like how they came across as a Chinese school but are teaching their beliefs I would be upset if I entrusted my child to this '' school '' in the thought of them learning Chinese but little Chinese was being taught. I have gone to the restaurant again and I couldn't think of the workers the same knowing that they are all students of this sect. I saw the elder woman and I remember doing the special mudra or hand posture they taught us and she said that it is a secret and I should not do it outside of the temple. She wanted me to be a student and study with her but I told her that I have a job and bills that I can't just drop everything. She asked again and I got firm I said that I wanted to learn Chinese not change my spiritual practice. She has called several times and invited me to the temple but I refuse to go back. Not for me. It was an interesting experience but I got the impression it was a high control group.
I went to some SGI gatherings hoping to learn more about Buddhism in general when I was young and very ignorant but curious. It was surprising to me how they never discussed anything that had to do with the Buddha and his teaching. They chanted and talked about their problems and how they overcame them with the prayer as you said. They talk more about Daisaku Ikeda than the Buddha itself. When I tried to leave because I was uninterested they contacted me for a while but didn't pressure me to stay, which was good I guess. It really felt as a cult to me. Thanks for the video! I love your channel and I am learning a lot ☺️
Interesting Miguel! It's also true that many later schools of Buddhism spend very little if any time at all discussing the early material from Sakyamuni. For example in many Zen temples one will hear about Dōgen. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, it just depends what's being taught, and what the practices promote.
My main issue with that particular group was the fact that the members were all very pushy. That's why I decided to stop all the stream of mails, newsletters and meetings. Because once you start to get into that circle you feel pressured to say yes at anytime, at least for me this was very off putting. And I was under the impression that there was a sort of blaming implied if you didn't take part in all the group activities, almost like you were not doing it the right way. I know that members who bring new members to the orgainization and introduce you to the Mystic Law in theory will benefit from that. But I felt a general unease, maybe because it seems quite a strict and imposing way to be Buddhist. (doing it twice a day everyday) I'm not saying I was brainwashed at all and I feel sorry for those who might have been, but I felt a sort of heaviness and obsessive trait in the people I've met who were part of the group. On the other hand, I do think that even by chanting a single OM you awaken and shake something within you that is very powerful. So chanting has got surely some benefits. My personal experience with it is that after I've chanted I felt more energetic and with more life force but I don't know if this happened as well to some of you, I felt even a bit exhausted. Of course if you chant for one hour it's very active! It activated my "solar plexus" area and energized my whole body, and intentions were clearer. So I think I will give it another go but this time I would like to follow my own rhythm with more compassion and I don't want to be part of any group. I was wondering if any of you had a similiar experience to mine.
Hello. Yes you can practice for yourself but Nichiren Shonin's teachings are in many Sects here in Japan. And Soka Sgi. are not the True teachings from them.There is not human revolution teachings from The Nichiren at all.Japan.
SGI has apparently toned down since their more forceful ways decades ago. Still, in Japan we always see them appear during political elections (followers often ask non-SGI friends to vote for a certain person). Another weird thing is the "other religions" sections at the bookstores - usually an entire bookcase is full of books "by" Ikeda; another entire bookcase is full of Okawa Ryuho's books (he leads another cult). These two dwarf other books about religion for sale.
I practiced several forms of Buddhism over the years. SGI was the least Buddhist of these. Yes, chanting was about getting "benefits" (one of the group's buzz words). I disengaged when I realized that if I heard the phrase "Buddhism is about winning" one more time I would puke. You don't study the Buddha's teachings in SGI. You study the writings and autobiography of the group's charismatic leader. So, is it a cult? Well, here are some of the defining characteristics of a cult. ✓It is focused on a charismatic leader. ✓It uses buzz words to create group cohesion. ✓Its followers believe their doctrine contains the one and only truth. ✓It provides frequent activities or living conditions that isolate you from the general public. (SGIers frequently chant together in each other's homes. You are assigned to local groups.) ✓You build a sense of exclusivity by identifying a common enemy. (For SGI this would involve members railing against the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood.) Additionally, the one "Buddhist" text revered by SGI is the Lotus Sutra. The first known version is in Chinese, not Sanskrit. It's very likely not an original Buddhist text. I never actually heard any discussions of the Lotus Sutra. I suspect that few SGIers have actually read it from cover to cover. Have the people who maintain SGI's RUclips page read it? The page features a member who is a famous actor and another follower who is a successful writer. This, despite the fact that the Lotus Sutra explicitly forbids Buddhists from associating with actors and writers of secular literature (not to mention followers of other religions, the Jain religion in particular.)
I would like to add a point... In a similar practice, we are asked to chant for someone who is suffering and for their peace of mind. When ever I do it, I feel I am becoming more compassionate and a better human. It really rewires your brain from egoistic attitude to a more compassionate outlook.
Your experience with "the people who worship the lotus sutra" is very common. I was raised chanting "namyo ho renge kyo" I never received luxuries, but I did see the ability to manifest with our environment. I had a crime committed against me and as a kid I remember being so focus on the event during my chanting. The next day it turned out the criminal had been arrested due to a witness I didn't know was there. Could it be the chanting or my intentions driven by a meditative state? I don't know. I still listen to lotus sutra English recordings, but I follow anything vedic (upanishads, Bagavad Gita etc) and every Buddhist sutra I can find. This channel has been really great to listen on my path in life. I'm committed to the Buddah path without dogmatic adherence.
I briefly joined SGI around 5-6 years ago. I had just gotten out of an emotionally abusive relationship and was looking for something spiritual. A friend of mine (who had recently transitioned) invited me to a women's meeting. She said the practice completely changed her life and had been part of the reason she had the confidence to transition. So, I went. It was a little weird but I was willing to go to a couple of other classes to learn more about it. So, that next week I signed up for another class to get to know the practice better. About an hour before I was supposed to attend, I got a text that they had decided I was ready to receive my gohonzon and would receive it that evening. I was shocked. When I attended the meeting and received my gohonzon, Everyone was congratulating me as if I had achieved something, but all I had to do was show up and pay 50 bucks. It was VERY strange and I was super put off. The chanting felt inauthentic. I didn't know what I was saying and bowing and chanting a language I didn't understand to a piece of paper did not make me feel like I was doing anything substantial. I maybe chanted for about 3 weeks. Then I got invited to a presentation by some of the people who were there when I received my gohonzon. I went with them, and man was that presentation WEIRD. Everyone was just talking about how wonderful the chanting was and how it changed their life. All these speakers and performances. I remember specifically a cancer patient who just went on and on about how wonderful the chanting was. But no one ever explained WHY. I just wanted to leave so bad. I stopped chanting after that. I still have 3 good friends that are in SGI. They said it has changed their life and they have been able to totally transform themselves and have tapped into their happiness and their spiritual power. It makes me want to try again, but I just had SUCH an awful experience last time. I wish I hadn't been essentially forced into it and had been given the space to choose it for myself.
@@DougsDharma Thanks for the reply. I do feel like I want to try again. I'm not turned off by the materialistic push that comes from SGI. It's not that I want the material possessions and gains (I think wanting security and achievements is part of the human experience) but I want to be able to believe that I am worthy of them. If chanting can somehow change my internal dialogue and give me the confidence that everything will work out in my best interest ("faith" as some may call it) Then I am willing to give it another shot. I've tried so many things. Paganism, witchcraft, meditation...I've read so many self help books. I am willing to try anything at this point (although I know Christianity is not for me.) Not sure why I'm telling you all of this. Maybe I just need to get it off my chest. Just searching for something that can better my life.
I also think the members of the "unnamed" group you mentioned approached you in a whack way. I am a member of this group. I , and most of my fellow members avoid aggressively pursuing or "Shakabukuing" people. But, I can attest there is a tendency for Type A fanatics to assume leadership positions in that group. My district has two who drive me crazy at times. While they are often the "face" of said group, they don't represent the core members. I also feel they have toned down a little in that regard throughout the years. J
uh...no, within SGI, leaders do not "assume" leadership. They are APPOINTED by higher-ups in closed-door sessions. There's nothing democratic about SGI - it's a top-down authoritarian dictatorship run from the Soka Gakkai mother ship in Japan. Everyone in SGI is supposed to submit to their higher-ups and do as they're told - "obedience" and "unity" are the foremost virtues in the Ikeda cult SGI.
@@dorisfromage2349 that is false.I have been in all types of leadership in SGI and am a rebel at heart.I submit to no one. But i do care about people and their life condition. Sometimes they drive me crazy too but i chant because it helps my anxiety, ive seen benefit in my life. thats what i care about. Transforming myself and helping others
This was super helpful for me. I was raised Catholic, rejected it by age 13. Agnostic forever. Then in 2023 I started attending Kadampa Meditation Center in a large US metro area. The meditation did help me to achieve an intended goal, plus other unintended outcomes. That only went well for 9 months before I discovered their drama and toxic, abusive administrative personnel. Now I'm attending SGI-USA and I just don't resonate with one hour chanting sessions so I've backed off attending, ugh. I find it very strange that SGI members spend all this time chanting/praying to the gohonzon, which is a piece of printed paper with Japanese calligraphy symbols; I find this cult-like. I accomplished many goals with meditation last year, but these long repetitive chanting session are not for me... SGI is too controlling too. I have recently not been attending because of a medical issue and in the last month two different members (my district lead and a person I chose to be my sponsor even though I found SGI on my own without a sponsor)- each person has attempted to twice invite themselves to my home for a "home visit" which mirrored a Jehovah's Witness style to me and was a turn-off. I am assuming they are in constant contact to make sure I haven't lost interest; I may be wrong but that is the vibe I am receiving. Their relentless and aggressiveness on this issue signaled a major red-flag in my mind. It just seemed too controlling of an approach so I responded to all of these requests by stating: "Thank you but I'll instead see you at the SGI center". Then there is the SGI magazine and newspaper subscription which I ordered. The strange thing about this is the publication frequency is far too close together. I think I get that newspaper once every ten or 14 days; they are piling up and I haven't read any of them because there are too many; it's an overwhelming amount of stickiness in marketing. People have lives so this is extreme over-kill. SGI does seem political in that they lower the projection screen and play old video speeches of their last president, Daisaku Ikeda (who is now dead). Why would I want to watch that? It is totally unrelatable material for a new member. Have your funeral, have a yearly memorial if you want then move on after the president's death and preach Buddhist teachings. I brought a friend to one Sunday Kosen Rufu service. He said the same. He mentioned how strange it was watching that unrelatable political Ikeda video was and how the service could have had some meaning if they would instead have a talk on a Buddhist teaching making the event relevant. I too would rather hear a Buddhist teaching. And that was one of the good things about attending the New Kadampa Tradition in 2023 / Kadampa Meditation Center in a large US metro area- they have frequent Buddhist teachings which are relatable. The NKT tradition also had a bad habit of overly focusing on the founding monk Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche who passed away two years ago. I just want to find a good Buddhist tradition that is not weird, cult-like or filled with power hungry people. This appears to be a challenge.
“Worldly desires lead to enlightenment “. Within my Sgi Buddhist sect we are aware of what the scroll 📜 says within the gohonzon. As one of my old mothers of faith says “follow the law, not the people”. I didn’t have the experience of getting tapped on the head with a stick. But I will say it can be different in different places because of the people, not the actual practice. Some folk have cult mentalities but I don’t let them pressure me into doing anything I don’t want. Leadership included.
I lived a SGI house as a teenager (divorced mother and her daughter) and it wasn't anything like what your experience was. There was zero pressure to do any SGI stuff, but I went to a few of their chant meetings just to check it out. I moved out on great terms and always remembered that as a pretty cool experience. Never crossed my mind that it might be a cult, but I did find it weird that they had to purchase a new scroll every year to hang in the gohonzon. I did run across a couple of definite cults in my years, though. Freaky weird to be exposed to.
@@DougsDharma - They weren't pushy with me and I thought it would nice to mention it. I also did find it weird to be encouraged to chant for selfish reasons. It was a little weird.
I am not gonna name the sect, but a lay person told me to take the initiation on the spot. Thank goodness I researched more about their beliefs, and I quietly distanced myself from it. Now I go to a Tibetan temple. Having once been in a cult, I definitely knew anyone pressuring you or taking advantage of your vulnerability to get you in raises alarm bells.
Absolutely! More people need to speak out about it. I practiced for years before their cult like mind games pushed me away. I feel freer than ever now.
Was looking for a buddhist church/organization where I could pray and meet other Buddhists and SGI came up and it instantly gave me weird vibes thank you for making this I would've ignored my gut intuition
I've been a member of SGI for twenty years with a ten year long break in the middle, practicing on my own... I the main reason I pull away is when no one calls me to say how ru? It's just to tell me about meetings. And they want to give me more responsibilities and don't even really ask! It can be a very toxic environment for anyone with mental health issues. They just tell you to get guidance from a senior leader who I don't even know... Some of the advice I've seen others give is very harmful... I can't just step back... I have to take a stand! Thank you for this video and allowing me to vent. 🙏
I was part of SGI for a time but got tired of the endless chanting and hypocrisy. Achieving worldly things through chanting feels unsettling. Buddha's Buddhism is not about obtaining worldly treasures. Buddhism is not about igniting the flame of desire but blowing out the candle to return to nirvana and end the cycle of rebirth and death. I enjoy Zen Buddhism. In silence, there is wisdom. A calm spirit.
(Paraphrasing) “if your getting into Buddhism for worldly ends your wrong” I …basically agree. This not from a ‘rationalist/skeptic’ POV, but if someone becomes interested in Medicine Buddha or Green Tara because of the (many!) worldly benefits that they promise, that can become the basis of a relationship with the Buddhas and the Dharma.
Yes, even the Buddha did talk about worldly ends for being a good person: it makes us better in our jobs and businesses. But I think we should also focus a little higher. 😄
I am a member of SGI and I will say that there are some aspects that can appear very forceful and inauthentic. When I joined SGI, I wasn’t told anything about chanting for material gain. I was told to study this Buddhism diligently and use Ikeda Sensei’s explanation to understand Nichiren’s writings even more and in this way I can open the world of Buddhahood in me. I was so surprised to hear this and I am glad I stayed and have used this Buddhism to understand life and death. I think encountering right leaders and members is definitely helpful. I don’t push for shakubuku either. If people ask me about the philosophy, I tell them I am a Buddhist practitioner.
@@1027HANA-lc5ke no. He is a Buddhist teacher who teaches about the mystic law and because the mystic law is in me, you and him, then yes in that sense he is the law but not in a god like way, but a person who upholds the law.
My experience with the form-of-Buddhism-that-shall-not-be-named (the local chapter you encountered may indeed have been run by Voldemort) was far more innocuous, if in fact your group was the same or some offshoot. The difference, if I'm remembering correctly (about 7 years ago), is that they had a translation of the text beneath the written chant, the main repeated chant meaning "homage to the Lotus Sutra," a sutra which I later on my own learned teaches that all beings in samsara will eventually become awakened. So I did not have that question dismissed out of hand as you did-though I had difficulty putting my finger on what they actually believed-nor was any induction urged upon me immediately after the initial session, though I was emphatically urged to return, and I attended perhaps a dozen or so meetings after. In hindsight, what bothered me was the emphasis on having faith in the chant, this after I had lost my faith in faith 3 years before. I was sold on Therevada Buddhism from books I'd read, and with limited local options, this was my first disappointment/realization that not all Buddhisms were the same, since little attention was paid to meditation or working with the mind. I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it, but there was also definitely a "Word of Faith" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith ) or "The Secret" vibe, which I chose to overlook at the time because these were people affiliated with Buddhism and I was looking for a community, and which, having lived down South for 4 years, I've been turned off by ever since. In Christian circles it's also referred to as the "prosperity message," and it's interesting to see the phenomenon creep up in a non-theistic religion, the sentiment is antithetical to real spiritual practice, since possessions or no possessions, success or not, all scriptures of all religions tell us that we should be able to be content in all circumstances. But for all that, I didn't find them as cult-y as you found them to be... but they were a little cult-y ;) I will say chanting isn't a terrible idea, it is after all an integral part of Theravada Buddhism, for instance if you've ever heard the sattipathana sutta read aloud, I think anyone would find the line between chant and meditation blurry. Even chanting nam-myoho-renge-kyo as part of a daily ritual would be fine... I just wanted anyone reading this to know that the baggage that Doug and I experienced that came along with it isn't inextricably tied to chanting in general or even to that chant in particular. I'm reminded that there was a time in England when they were considering using another color for "stop" instead of red, and G.K. Chesterton wrote an article explaining that just because the Bolsheviks use the color red it doesn't mean they own the color. And so it is here, this chant just happened to be appropriated by this sect of Buddhism. As far as faith goes, nothing wrong with that either, though you might generally think of faith as a heart attitude in the Buddhist context. The kind of faith in particular that chants like the sattipathana sutta inculcate is more of a faith in human potential, faith in the certainty that the Buddhist articulation of practice is the answer to human existence. Anyhow, if not the best-written, these were at least my thoughts on the issues raised in this vlog, these last two paragraphs being directed at whoever else might read this (e.g. practice suggestions) rather than yourself, Doug, if it isn't obvious. Thanks again for posting the vlog.
Thanks very much for your comments, Buckley. I don't have extensive experience with this sect because I exited the session at a run. But I am sure there are many good members there, and am prepared to believe it may not have been run in the most approachable or least cult-y manner. That said, it remains clear to me that their method of approaching the Buddha dhamma is not my own. I'm on the same page with you re. chanting and faith, faith at least understood as "confidence" rather than e.g., blind faith. In the broader Insight tradition of Theravāda (of which much secular Buddhism is an offshoot) there isn't very much chanting, but the little that occurs I don't find problematic. Mainly I want to understand what I'm chanting and why I'm chanting that rather than something else. Chanting can also be a samatha practice, in which case I suppose understanding the meaning isn't so critical. But that sort of chanting I haven't seen in an Insight context.
buckley cloud Yeah chanting is practiced all over the Buddhist landscape, including Theravada. Just think that not so long ago not everybody could read and chanting was a basic way of learning and also was part of social life.
So you're ANOTHER SGI member who supposedly read the Lotus Sutra and never noticed that Chapter 25 instructs everyone to worship Bodhisattva Quan Yin (Kannon in Japanese)? How very strange. It's written very clearly. As you noted, the Pentecostals' "Prosperity Gospel" is alive and well in SGI (although draped in a kimono). Even Daisaku Ikeda himself has stated that the Soka Gakkai (parent organization of SGI) is a monotheistic religion, so that "non-theistic religion" stuff is simply dishonesty. The gohonzon is treated every bit like a god; Ikeda takes the place of Jesus; and The Universe is constantly watching over you and approving/disapproving of your every move. Stick with Theravada; no scholar within the last 150 years has taken the position that ANY of the Mahayana sutras (including the Lotus Sutra) were taught by Shakyamuni Buddha. The Mahayana suffer from the problem of being so late in the historical record; as with the old Catholic relics, the Lotus Sutra (at least) came with a backstory to explain why what was supposedly "Shakyamuni's Highest Teaching" didn't enter the historical record until ca. 200 CA. The Lotus Sutra was hidden away in the realm of the snake gods under the sea! Yeah, that's right! These beings are also called nagas or dragons. If you're familiar with the tale of the dragon king's daughter, she was one of these.
Thanks, Doug, appreciate the red flag, I have always appreciated that Buddha was absolutely clear in Buddha Dharma there are no secrets,. It is clearly wrong view to conflate focusing to achieve something material (or otherworldly) and the Buddha Dharma. As for getting involved with a Buddhist cult where you let someone else do your thinking and perhaps the heavy lifting for you, as someone once said, "In Buddhism, you have to wash your own brain." and as Buddha said, be an island. Thanks again go well, and to your own practice be true.
You're very welcome James. For all of this, it's a matter of personal preference. While we do in the final analysis have to "wash our own brain" as you say, some prefer a very tight guru relationship, others don't. The only real issue is to be sure that if you're signing up for a guru, that you've done the homework to be sure the guru has your best interests at heart.
This reminds me of the time (I believe they are called moonies?) tried to get me to go with them. They didn’t out right say they were moonies, but I later found out that what they were which is basically a cult. I don’t get that same vibe from the form of Buddhism you’re speaking of (I know who you are talking about), but the chanting for worldly things is the diver that opposite of what one thinks Buddhism is about. However, depending on who you’re asking, reciting that particular chant is supposed to bring forth your Buddha nature. So the ones saying you can have a new car or whatever are gravely mistaken.
At many (Chinese) Buddhist temples, the routine is to buy incense to light. When you buy the incense, you are given two crescent-shaped blocks colored red on one side and black on the other, you pray (or ask) and throw the blocks on the ground. Based one the blocks the priest gives you a rolled up paper with a response to your prayer. That and observe some very congregational holidays is all the local Buddhists do with respect to Buddhism. That's probably the majority, they go to the temple to ask for something.
Yes, I think that's completely normal in many traditional belief systems. Indeed, even in the early days people came to the Buddha looking for worldly ends.
There are other Nichiren sects also that aren't well known and aren't cultlike. SGI is about money, leaders, deity of an older Japanese wealthy man. It used to be NSA which split in 1991. Over priests being the ones keeping the traditions of knowing the sutras and such but the SGI believed they had all the right sutras and historical knowledge. It was not a good relationship between the two.
I went to a buddhist group and the leader singled me out to put down my previous teachers. He also showed up mysteriously in court screaming street car of desire while I was trying to get a divorce from an abusive person. Besides the strange personal attacks I noticed his followers would only laugh when he spewed a profanity as if they reacted only when jostled. He would barely answer questions mostly dismissing them keeping control over every conversation. There were certain books in their bookstore they acted reluctant to sell (nothing any adult couldn't read in a college class.) He also did the touch thing which freaked me out. Never mind the imposing bliss! I got the heck out of that group but I still have nightmares!
There is weirdness all about. There is a way out of that weirdness and the way is eightfold. Investigating and making sure the Buddha Dharma Wheel (Dharmachakra) is actually being used would be a prerequisite. ^^
SGI members do not even know what the Three Treasures are (Sanga, Dharma, and Buddha), nor the Four Noble Truths, nor even the Eightfold Path! SGI in my most humble opinion is most definitely NOT genuine Buddhism! It's FAKE Buddhism! I ought to know, as I am an ex member from years ago!
Doug, I feel the same way you do about these cults. I discovered buddhism through your channel and fell in love with theravada buddhism and I've been practicing ever since, I also have a skeptical background, and I've also read Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins, and some weeks ago I was introduced to Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism (wich I believe is the cult you're referring to) and I felt really weird about it, I asked the same questions you did, got the same weird answers, and Idk, I think mahayana buddhism (specially nichiren) just doesn't work for me at all.
Actually Nichiren Shoshu was once the parent organisation, but they through the High Corts of Tokyo, SGI (Sokagakkai) was the one excummincate from NSA (Now NST)
Back in the 80's in NYC, SGI members used to approach people on the street at night, get them back to a meeting in a house, overwhelm them with stimuli and then pressure them to get into a car and whizz them off to the Culture Center near Union Square and have them officially convert that same night. Their pitch was like a salesman: "Just try it and see if it 'works'.". It was being marketed like magic, chant for things and you'll get them. The focus was on poor and disenfranchised people in the ghetto, who they then got to do free labor to run their magazine business which they were profiting from, by telling them that anything they did to further the cause of the organization would result in good karma for them. Not only was this exploitative, but often led single mothers to neglect their children. These were already struggling people who had to work a lot to take care of their children, and they convinced them that they need to spend whatever free time they had at organization activities and this would somehow wind up being for their childrens' good because it was a "good cause". So they had them up late into the night working for free on magazine subscriptions, while they got paid, and their children were either home alone or off in another room unsupervised and then had to ride subways and walk around the ghetto late at night to get home, exposing them to harm in many ways.
From my 13 years living in Japan, I found that most Buddhism temples in Japan are business entities masquerading as religious groups to get money from tips from their fans, otherwise known as forced donations from tourists (whether foreign of domestic), and most priests are just professional funeral conductors and know very little about the many Buddhist Sutras. They are much like people who call themselves ministers in the US from every conceivable religion and denomination thereof, so they can give you what ever kind of bazaar wedding you are willing to pay for (whether it's Elvis singing to you in a drive-in chapel in lost wages or a Wicca may pole wedding in a park). Fortunately, the so-called priests in Japan are only profiting off of funerals and/or forced entry payments by tourists into their historical landmarks, not wedding. We can call this "funeral Buddhism" or "dead Buddhism." Then there is living Buddhism, which is the millions of people who go to meetings in Japan at people's homes and chant the wondrous law of the lotus blossom, which means they are affirming that they are the Buddhas of Absolute Freedom, which come into this world in the latter day of the law to masquerade as common mortals; those in Japan who are becoming extremely active in society to charge the world in a positive way. I see the former is very weird (I got really dizzy going to a few Shingon and Ritzu Funeral, where I had to pay a forced 100-plus dollar donation, because my co-worker's, who I hardly knew's mother, whom I never met, died, because she was a practicing fan of the businesses called Shingon and Ritzu) and the latter is very cool and I'm so glad to be a part of the latter and not the former. What is the right way to meditate is a value judgment and what to meditate for is also a value judgement. When Shakyumuni said in the lotus sutra, "In the beginning I made a great vow, to make all people equal to me with no distinctions," what I believe he meant by "no distinctions" is without making value judgments on what should or shouldn't lead a person to their chosen path of awakening. So where you might not see someone meditating (or chanting) to get a raise at work as 'the right way to do it," that may be the only thing that is going to lead a person to be reunited in the US with his/her family that is half-way on the other side of the planet, because that person chose to move back to the US, when his/her spouse and daughter, who are Japanese haven't yet decided to do so and are afraid in might not be financially feasible to do so. I find most white middle-class people (a majority being men) who never had to worry about starving to death or being homeless being drawn to mediation centers and to making value judgments of "What is the right reason to practice Buddhism." But truthfully, who are you to judge what is the right or wrong way or reason to chant or meditate? "Consciousness includes everything and judges nothing." -Gary Douglas
MEANWHILE, SGI-USA is in the middle of their Annual May Contribution Campaign, where they exhort all the members to give 'til it hurts, assuring them that whatever they give will come back to them 10 fold. By magic! Even though their guru Ikeda stated plainly back in the 1960s that "As an eternal principle, the Soka Gakkai will never ask for even the tiniest contribution of offering from the members." And you don't get to have an SGI gohonzon unless you pony up $50 - but that's *different* somehow, isn't it, Tim? SGI is a filthy cult, everyone - steer clear of it.
So, Gary, traditional schools of Buddhism are "funeral Buddhism" or "dead Buddhism", eh? Well, the Soka Gakkai/SGI is "*COMMEMORATIVE* Buddhism" - the only events worth commemorating happened to old Japanese men in Japan. All the big celebrations in SGI are of something Ikeda did (or maybe Toda, rarely Makiguchi - they're both dead); the annual Women's Day in February commemorates Daisaku Ikeda's dumb WIFE'S BIRTHDAY. Oh, that's MUCH BETTER than ol' "funeral Buddhism", isn't it? To be constantly expected to remind themselves about and celebrate things that happened IN JAPAN to people they've never even MET - and *nothing* from their own country or their own history - that's "Living Buddhism", right? What about when the SG/SGI's "living mentor" is finally acknowledged to be dead? What will be special about him then? Just another "dead mentor" to toss onto the pile, eh? Daisaku Ikeda hasn't been seen in public or videotaped since April 2010, and all the still photos released by the Soka Gakkai show an alarmingly vacant, unresponsive husk whose eyes can't focus on the camera, who has lost the ability to smile, who just *sits* like some taxidermy. Seems you're a bit ignorant about what you're promoting there, Gary.
Nichiren Buddhism has Vajrayana roots! It shares the principle with Shingon Buddhism, Japanese Vajrayana, of attaining "Buddhahood in this very life", but instead of doing that through mudra, mantra, and mandala, the Shingon Path, Nichiren Buddhism advocates doing so through the practice of Odaimoku, arguably a mantra. Nichiren Shu is a legitimate, orthodox Buddhist school that, indeed, even recommends reading the Pali Canon
Thank you Doug for this video. I practiced SGI Nichiren Buddhism for 21 years. This past year I became saved and now I follow Jesus Christ. I would very much love to share my experience with you regarding my involvement with SGI (I was a group leader and unit chief), why I left, and to share with you what exactly the Sanskrit characters are on the Gohonzon/ scroll. What is the best way to reach you/ email you?
We all had our lessons to learn. It helps to always search first the historicity, life story, and works of the founder of any lineage or Buddhist sect. Nichiren's life events were questionable, so as his teachings on the Lotus Sutra which deviate from how Chih-i of the Tendai sect understood the Lotus sutra. The same goes to SN Goenka who was not a monk who brought the Vipassana meditation to the West, which turned out to be a "Vipassana craze" toppled with guru worship of Goenka. As told in the Theravadin texts, Vipassana is not a technique but a quality of meditation twin with Samatha. Better to learn it from Theravadin monks who practice it, not just sitting Vipassana (as taught by Goenka), but completely involves standing and walking Vipassana as originally taught in the Theravadin tradition.
My first introduction to Buddhism was through SOKA GAKKAI, they told me I didn't have to know the meaning of the chanting, that all my problems would disappear, they had targets on how many people had to convert, always criticised other schools, finally didn't leave me alone for ages after I left. Please please STAY AWAY from them. I have been practising with a lovely Theravada group since,
I am another ex-member of SGI, I know them well (externally). By all legal definition Soka Gakkai International IS INDEED recognised as a cult. Even in Japan Sokagakkai is well discredited, same goes for the Komeito Party.
I did not realize that SGI and Nichiren Buddhism were not the same thing. Glad I found out that they are distinct. From what I have read they remind me of the "prosperity gospel" form of Christianity (I use that term lightly) which connects "divine blessings and financial success" as one in the same thing.
I had practiced Nichiren Buddhism since the 80's on and off, however, at the time that I grew the most in the practice I offered my home for meetings, and at the end of one of these meetings we would gather for conversation. I started speaking to a friend about something totally unrelated. I don't remember the topic but I had one of the chapter leaders come to me and tell me that I had to stop talking about this topic because it had nothing to do with Buddhism. And I had to remind him that he was in MY house and I was going to speak about anything I desired. Needless to say, I felt very disappointed and surprised. This was a leader and therefore someone I thought should be spiritually developed not to do something like that. Afterwards, I just had a series of confrontations where I felt very pressured into shakubuku. They wanted us to go to places and convince people to do this practice and I always thought that this was something very subjective for me and I didn't want to forecast and enlist others to do the same just to show an increase in the ranks. That was the end of my experience with that. Shortly after I stopped, but, I miss the way it made me feel. I did see a difference when I chanted. Since then I've been trying to substitute this experience with others and I can't find the proper Buddhism to practice in my life which has left me feeling sort of empty and a bit lost.
Found this video very helpful thanks Doug, I have a friend who was recommending I do this nam-myoho-renge-kyo and I've been doing it and I am really starting to find it completely pointless because her explanation is they believe "by doing this chanting it awakens your inner Buddha" .... It really helped that you were able to explain your mind frame at the time, I found myself exploring esoteric spiritual things but really going about in order to get some kind of personal gain like get a better life path and success after experiencing failures in professional and personal life. I really think the big problem with cults and even well-intentioned motivational speakers is that mindset. I'm glad I stumbled upon you on my search this morning keep up the good work 🙏🏽
Yeah, thanks Jake! I think it's more important to use spiritual teachings as reminders for wisdom and ethics rather than as ways to get wealthy or something. There's nothing wrong with wealth unless we start craving it. 🙂
@@DougsDharma I think the apropos word is crave, it implies a lack within, a hunger that can never be satiated, I think that's what I found has been leading me away from all of these modern law of Attraction type teachings, I wish you luck spreading your message 🙏🏽👍🏽👍🏽
I've actually recently joined... I do have my doubts especially when they are using non buddha's words but Ikeda. I'm a bit skeptical..my parents want me to pursue traditional buddhism... it's a bit odd with IDs on members, always using Ikeda words not buddhism..and the chanting does throw me off..it's been stressing me out to leave.. I don't praise Ikeda but more so just the value and chanting for higher self vibration seeking more positive momentum.. can anyone help me with how I should leave and why I should?
Well that's a hard one Michelle. If as it sounds like you're wanting to leave the group then it's probably best you just go ahead and do so. But that decision has to be yours alone. I hope it works out for you. Let us know how it goes! 🙏
Hi! I'm going thru the same thought and the same organization..I've joined..almost 2 years ago but I don't really feel I should continue, no metion of Buddha or Nichiren himself, only Ikeda and the strong personality cult they seem to have is off-putting but at the same time I fell like "I don't want to leave Buddhism and I already left 2 other religions.." it's hard and I feel you!
Karla Santanach You can do it ! Save yourself ! And something to consider is: you don’t have to REPLACE one religion with another. You can not have one too! When we grow up and realize Santa and the tooth fairy aren’t real, we don’t replace them with anything new, we simply have our eyes opened and move forward in life. You can do the same with organized religion, dogma and blind faith :)
If someone says "I am your teacher" or "You have to do this ceremony or practice"....turn the other way and run. It doesn't work that way. You have to find a reliable teacher, and then you have to vet them for a period, and they you.
I'm so sad for your experience with SGI. I feel like your experience was definitely indicative of the organization in previous years. I do think you handled this subject very well though. I was expecting to be up in arms, and I am, but not at you and totally at the experience you had, how weird and awful! I don't know about then, but nowadays the direct translations are in the back of the book and the base meanings of the chants are discussed anytime a new visitor is at a meeting. Nice video though!
Thanks for your kind note KpopMamas, really the experience wasn’t so bad, just a kind of turnoff at the time for me. I’m sure all the folks there meant well. 🙂
We can't ignore worldly concerns & be entirely otherworldly - we need to ensure our material needs are taken care of as without them we can't make any progress spiritually at all. Most people's concerns are mundane - so address all mundane concerns correctly - as buddha taught.
I was in my 20’s when introduced to SGI. I was already interested in Buddhism and meditation prior. I somehow has gotten in with a chanting group doing the lotus sutra in shingon and really enjoyed the group chanting. There were moments of resonance and harmonics where you could really feel the power of a group chant. Then I was invited to a larger group meeting and this is where I got my first taste of the culty cultish kookiness. After the chant they started getting up one by one talking about all the material benefits they’ve received from chanting. It was very off putting. The group organizer came up after and asked me what I thought about it. I told him flat out that I felt that I was watching an infomercial and didn’t feel that it was real Buddhism. He was obviously a bit offended and said that he would tell the members to tone it down next time. I politely told him that there would not be a ‘next time’.
I just began attending SGI in 2024 and what you've described I too found disturbing and materialistic. If someone was chanting for a heath reason, that seemed acceptable but not for material gains like money, cars, job promotions. I've found too many things about SGI that I don't like and find weird so I've stopped attending after only a few months.
I experienced my first meeting of an American Buddhist back in 1991 in Thailand years later I googled Buddhism and nam myoho renege kyo came up as one of the top searches. So I studied nichiren Buddhism for a while liked some of the stories of his exile etc but later learned that like the video here this is a divergence from the original message of the Buddha (Theravada Buddhism) and yes the chanting aspect I believe is to obtain merit in this life such as wealth etc…For me that is not the message of the Buddha ❤
Mindfulness has indeed in some circles been twisted into "spiritual materialism." For corporations in particular it has become a way of playing blame-the-victim with regard to their workers ("You're just not being mindful enough") as opposed to looking at the real causes of their stress like being overworked or underpaid. Sadly I wonder if the fact that corporate elites can use mindfulness in this way is part of the reason for the current widespread interest it- it is being pushed by those with the material means and motivations to push it inside almost every workplace. This is why meditation should not be taught in isolation, it must be taught in combination with wisdom and compassion (though I also hope that mindfulness will prove to be a Trojan horse inside those very corporations, making people more aware not less!).
Yes it certainly can be misused, but I think you're pointing to the fundamental feature of mindfulness which is that it will tend to make people more aware of what is actually going on.
I am a nicherin buddhist practitioner the experience you mention off chanting for material stuff was also a turn off or me also, its interesting your experience was indictcative of the older practice in the 1970s when I began my practice. I could fill volumes, as I have chanted for near 50 years. we center our practice around the teachings of the Lotus sutra and the lessons are deep and profound and come in layers.none the less I will continue to subscribe and listen and possibly I or other can resist your understanding of nicherin buddhist practice.... David
Hello my name is Paige/paigley, I am 15 years old girl from Thailand 🇹🇭. I’ve had a similar experience with the cult situation you were talking about. When I was around maybe 8 years old, I was being put in a cult by my mother(It’s a reallly long story and some of the things I had to go through was just weird) , turned out the whole thing was a fraud. And so now I feel depressed because I was being lied to and manipulated by. I don’t know how I can recover from this traumatic experience. 😢 My dad however did not believe this cult my mom was suggesting, and I was really young and didn’t understand anything so I just went with my mom. Then my mom suggested that I invited my friends to go to the cult temple and pray with, and I did. (I hope that, this comment wasn’t offensive or anything thing. I just really need to get help.)
very true , you must be very careful with what and with whom you engage with...that being said , these experiences can act as steppingstones for connecting with authentic paths. In fact , one may never have connected with these paths without the weird experiences . So, anyone who's been in a sect , as i have , can take some comfort in that .
Yea, in the 90s and early 2000s the New Age movement coopted aspects of eastern philosophies to promote this whole idea that we can manifest what we want in our lives, especially materially. A Course in Miracles, "The Secret" et. al. The idea is/was to align ourselves energetically and spiritually with the Universe and thereby receive all the abundance that we want and deserve. In some ways, I agree with that. Our minds are powerful and we can observe how our thoughts lead to correlative results. But the implication is that if something bad happens or we don't get what we want or think we deserve that somehow we aren't in the right spiritual or mental space. Plus the emphasis on material things just corrupts the original teachings. In a way, I miss the spirituality that existed in the hay days of the New Age movement. Many people explored esoteric teachings along with standard ideas within Buddhism and other Eastern philosophies along with Nature based spirituality. I think overall it was a positive thing that is lacking in today's society. So I don't think we should judge it too harshley. Of course, there were some cultish elements within some of the New Age movement, but eventually the truth always comes out and the light is shown on the negative aspects, leaving one to assess one's own spiritual path in the context of the information presented. As far as not knowing what the chant was saying, in a way they were correct. You don't really need to know the meaning of the syllables to receive benefit from chanting them. Of course, from our Western minds we want to know what it is that we are saying/chanting. And there is value to that. What if one disagrees with their meanings? You wouldn't want to chant that. But when it comes to chanting the Heart Sutra, for example, in Japanese, it's the very pronouncement of the syllables that begets benefit. The resonances created amongst the chanters has a calming, centering effect. There's also this idea of humility in submitting to chanting something that one does not know. But from our Western, discerning minds, we feel uncomfortable with that and the dangers involved. Ultimately, it's better to know, of course. Then one can have an intellectual understanding of what is being chanted as well as an experiential one. Understanding what the Heart Sutra actually says is truly profound and points to the ultimate essence of reality. It's mind blowing . . .
Thanks for an interesting video. It was so much better to hear your voice without background music. If you decide you prefer to use music, you might consider keeping it at a very low volume. Please keep up your good work.
Thanks for sticking with it. I think there are maybe a couple more videos yet to come with background music that might be on the loud side. I'll be asking about that probably later this week on a Q&A. Then -- we'll see what the consensus is on the music, and go forward from there.
Everyone seeking a new religious, spiritual, or even political group should watch this video. There are lots of groups that are not healthy in many ways and of many types. Other features of unhealthy groups I have seen include encouraging shunning of family and friends, requiring increasing amounts of time, the belief that the individual can not function without that group, or encouraging self deprecating behavior. Any belief, even the most harmless, can be sharpened into a weapon if that is the intent the way a spoon can be sharpened into a knife.
I joined the SGI a year ago, after knowing about it for 5 years, I am a very skeptical individual and do not believe it to be a cult. I don’t think you can draw comparisons between it and the Rajneesh cult or Scientology. Cults promote disconnection from family and local community, which has been quite the opposite of the intention of members I’ve interacted with who advocate for manifesting strong ties with family and community. Also, I’ve been explicitly told what gongyo and daimoku (the chanting) means and referred to books to further conduct independent study. Independent thought is encouraged within the SGI, not diminished. I don’t know why you were told to leave for NYC that night to be bestowed Gohonzon, I must admit, that’s odd. I practiced for 6 months before receiving mine and I was in no way forced, I was offered the opportunity and reassured I didn’t have to receive if I did not feel ready. What’s more is that recently I’ve not really been attending meetings or doing all that much chanting, and I’m not made to feel guilty by leaders or members, I sometimes feel guilty myself - which comes from a Christian upbringing - but I’m continually reminded by members that the practice is not one of guilt and to move forward always from this moment onwards. I find SGI to be a very culturally rich collection of people with a tolerance for all religions and customs - it does not promote a sense of superiority and certainly doesn’t encourage only socialising/living with other members. I really encourage more research into sgi and its roots and history before drawing conclusions.
I also find it to be more accessible than Theravada schools of Buddhism which often teach sexist sentiments like women cannot become fully enlightened - hence why you rarely see fully ordained female Buddhist nuns…. It’s also generally hierarchical- with priesthoods and lay persons. In the sgi everyone is equal. That is to say that I am even seen as an equal with the president - Daisaku Ikeda. Also, the sgi has done a good job of taking the Buddha’s teachings and Nichiren’s teachings and applying them to today’s world. To see real progression into a peaceful society, we have to consider accessibility. If people (men) are disappearing into far away mountains or forests to practice austerity and celibacy, I’m not sure how this is helpful in the whole of humanity’s journey towards enlightenment. Not everyone wants to leave their family etc, and why should that mean they are less capable of enlightenment than those who do? Or have less buddhahood within them? It doesn’t! The sgi teaches that every individual has innate buddhahood and can achieve enlightenment - the practice is way to tap into that. The stories you were hearing are simply faith-affirming experiences people have had after chanting. Chanting is about overcoming challenges and adversity, and yes sometimes that can result in a promotion at work or getting a new house for your family. But the goal isn’t an accumulation of wealth. It’s more about self actualisation. If someone in sgi is telling you to chant for a new TV or whatever, that may be that their in the life state of animality or hunger. And what they might find is they don’t get what they are chanting for or they do and when it doesn’t bring them happiness they’ll learn a valuable lesson.
You got that one person that was the poison. I am sure he didn't last long!! They don't force anybody to stay or go. They try to help or spread the word for something they found beneficial. Nothing wrong with being enthusiastic. I practice at home more and attend whenever I can. It's different feeling doing it alone and in group. I believe you need both. The practice has shown me its own power! It changed my life for the better. Daisuke akeda has done so much for world peace and trying to preserve and teach. He has books if you want to read his thoughts on nichiren and the simplified version of the old texts, all positive things! He has done a lot for charity, printing and reprinting books, news letters, booklets, keeping the center running, etc. Why not raise money, all other religions do!! I do keep all the priests in my prayers though, as without them preserving this practice it would never have made it to the US. There are so many things in this world that are negative. This is not one of them. 💓 Always keep in mind that people have their own versions and you don't pick this religion, it picks you. No one forced me, it felt good, other people came and some went, So like attracts like. Thank you for reading my comment and have a blessed day. NMRK
So, I have a question. When I first started learning about Nichiren Buddhism, I ended up on the SGI site, because you practically can’t get away from it. I have requested a few times to be introduced to a local group, as the closest SGI center is over a 3 hour drive from where I live. I have never had any luck with this. They send me a form letter that tells me to use the SGI locator, which I’ve obviously already done, and was how I found out that the closest center is over 3 hours away! I would like to check it out, to see for myself what it’s all about. I have heard some negative things, so I’ve been wary. But you never know until you try.
Thank you so much for this video. I lost my best friend to this cult. She emotionally abused me, tried to spiritually bypass my mental health issues. When I went into therapy finally after some time I left gakkai. I understood the wrong that was happening there. And I thought how should I save my best friend. But then I realised she is now a part of it no longer a victim.
SGI / Nichiren Buddhism is what you make of it. If you need it as some sort of replacement for parents or obsessive sole driving force of every minute of every day, that’s cultish and not healthy. If it’s seen as an aspect of your life, a tool, inspiration, and guide, it’s great. The same holds true for absolutely any spiritual practice or path, although obviously there are truly evil cults like the one authored by the mediocre sci-fi writer! Wishing you well-stay healthy and best to you and yours.
As you no doubt know, the experience you describe happened back in the days when SGI and the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood were still together; the initiation rite you describe with the priest placing a gohonzon on your head is the give away for that. It's called gojukai; SGI doesn't do anything similar to it, but the members of the Nichiren Shoshu Temple still receive the precepts in that manner. As far as pressuring you to go from the introductory meeting to a temple like you describe, I've heard from members that things did kind of work that way back then.
I've had a long hard meditation over the comment about 'chant for money' and how it seems contradictory to buddhist philosophy..and what comes up for me is...in buddhism (like many religions) you work towards enlightenment and freeing yourself of your karma/suffering (the things which challenge you in life). Theres a great quote 'earthly desires are enlightenment'; which at face value looks mad...but its true...you need to search out and face your challenges and overcome them in order to become enlightened..so if you have a problem with money you need to face this challenge not shy away from it..so it seems Nicherin wasn't a monk looking after the rich and famous..and he wasn't promising you would be rich by chanting..he was merely saying face the things which challenge you as this is the only way to overcome them and really see the world/universe for what it truly is🙏
Thank heavens you took the right path!! Buddhism in my mind is what the Buddha himself preached and followed. I don't think he preached tantra which is a big part of Mahayana Buddhism. What is your opinion?
Mike McCormic? If this is you? SHAME ON YOU wanting only to become a Shomyo Priest! You litterally DUMPED all your members in San Francisco and environs! Is this the correct way to seek priesthood? (Now, If this is not Mike, please disregard this answer).
Lotus sutra(myoho renge kyo) one of oldest mahayana sutras(200 bce) Similiar to uponishads "thou art that" Lets get out of our heads and follow our heart and do practice we are attracted to
I have adopted the philosophy of Rabbi Joseph H. Gelberman: "Never Instead, Always in Addition To". In other words, I take what is good and positive and add it to my practice/humanness and let go of what is not. That makes me walk on my own path without merging to any religion, group, secular or other beliefs. This approach has worked for me to continue growing.
Yes I think that is a wise principle to adopt. Thanks Edwin.
same! I am an SGI member and chant but I go to church and pray to Jesus...
I like how you said “I add it to my practice/humanness” because really our practice is our everyday living. Good luck on your path 🙏❤️
It should be noted that when your teacher called Carl Sagan a "sociopath", the term "sociopath" has a different meaning in Scientology. In their terms, a "sociopath" is anyone who criticizes or disagrees with the Church of Scientology
Great point Luciana, thanks.
yes that is true. They have an entire terminology that is upside down. Like „openminded“ which is supposedly negative because your mind is open to other thought outside of scientology
Here in Japan, Nichiren Shu is generally viewed as being a "normal" Buddhist sect that is open to everyone, while Nichiren Shoshu/Soka Gakkai are both viewed as cultish groups that reject all other forms of Buddhism as heretical (and both groups believe that members of the other group will go to hell).
Thanks for the info, J K.
I don’t believe it. Hell is a state of life . Any Buddhist knows that.
@@SithGod Search for "soka gakkai", "nichiren shoshu", and "hell", and see what results come up. You will be surprised at the level of mutual hate between the two groups.
Even a Nishiren Shoshu temple near me has a sign on the front warning Soka Gakkai members to repent or risk going to hell.
I remember a Shoshu layperson tell me "don't go to Hinduism. Go to us instead". That raised alarm bells for me.
Hello. Are you in Nichiren Shu now. Please tell me about the sect. Are you in Japan?
I was also briefly part of SGI (Soka Gakkai International). There was no mention of Buddha and any of his teachings. Everything was about the organization's president Ikeda and how much of a great man he is and how much he "loves us" (he also happens to be a political leader in Japan, go figure). Meanwhile the dude is living large, getting filthy stinking rich off of all of his followers' monthly subscriptions to his bs magazine. They always pressured me to subscribe to his magazine and to chant so that I could obtain anything, even material things. It's sad because I met some nice people there, but the brainwashing and cult feeling was overbearing. They're the Jehova's Witnesses of Buddhism
Thanks for the information A B. 🙏
I recently experience the same thing. Very creepy vibe.
What you have written suggests a superficial understanding of SGI and Nichiren Buddhism. The teachings of Nichiren go back to the 13th century and were based on the teachings of Shakyamuni, the historical Buddha, approximately 2500 years ago. As for being "pressured" to subscribe to publications, all you needed to do was say "no" and not subscribe. Using words such as "filthy stinking rich" and "brainwashing" is unreasonable and is no way to gain credibility. If you were in fact treated unfairly the reasonable response would have been to report it to someone in a leadership position. As for Daisaku Ikeda, I wish you would do some reading about him before making such unfair comments.
Using the word "cult" is easy to use indiscrimately but in this case it's basically name-calling. Calling SGI the "Jehovah's Witnesses of Buddhism" is simply ridiculous.
@@danawinsor1380 Hello. About The Nichiren Daishonin I agree but not Mr. Ikeda. Is he the Law? Japan.
The chant could be done to steal energy from you.
I remember my early contact with Tibetan Buddhism and why it possibly is so fascinating for the western mind due to it's mystical aspects which I suspect is due to the influence of Tibet's earlier Bon traditions. I recall vividly and probably to my benefit, an answer to my questioning. ..."Some people want to learn to go astral traveling with the Lamas, much easier to fly British Airways." ...lol.
Indeed so Mael-Strom, thanks! 😄
I was also a member of Nichiren Shoshu (Soga Gakkai ) and had similar bizarre experiences. I was told to chant for as many hours as possible every day and not to worry about what the chant meant. They also told me that if I chanted long enough, I would get whatever material wealth or desire I wished for. I quit after a few months as the practice was all wrong and insincere to me, although I really liked some of the members. It was one of the worst religious experiences I've had and I don't think anything has changed in the practice. My advise is to stay clear from it.
Thanks for the info, Leo!
Aww bummer! It strikes me that these types of Dhamma are tragically the most common. I haven't been to an SG meeting yet but there is a big one coming up here in Mexico City and reading up on it it seemed like exactly what you say: Chanting a few words someone in Japan discovered a whole lot.
The other english-language Buddhism here in CDMX is Kadampa, which I tried out in Montreal and had a very similar experience. It was a chanting day and reading the actual chants (to "Green Tara", no apparent mention of Sid at all) was really depressing. They all were very precise in that "we chant and submit ourselves to Green Tara and she will be our mother and provide wealth/happiness/health in exchange for submission". Missing pretty much everything I appreciate about Sid's teachings :(
SGI is the Scientology of Buddhism a fake cult
Rock Python Yes, true. They also proselytize and really pressure you to recruit new members. I had (have) an entire library of books on various Buddhist teachings and different 'schools of thought'. I also had statues and ritual paraphernalia. I am Hindu from India and am tantric practitioner (tantrika) but have also taken initiation from some Tibetan rinpoches and anyway, this Nichiren Buddhist group told me I had to discard all other teachings and realated stuffs, they told to put in the garbage. Ha! What an experience. Oh, I of course didn't throw anything away (except their invitation to join their cult)
Rock Python Yeah, it was. The priests were actually quite nice but the whole thing just gave me that feeling in the pit of my stomach. Some of the things that first attracted me to Buddhism was the lack of dogma and lack of proselytizing but this group was... different. 😉🙏🕉️🙏
Thank you so much for giving voice to how I feel about SGI
You're very welcome Roscoe. Be well.
Thank you, Doug. I had a minor experience with SGI in Madrid, and it fits exactly with what you say. It is a show-me-the-money cult. Unfortunately, it's not the only one in Buddhism. Metta!
Thanks for your thoughts Cayetano!
Love Madrid BTW! 🙂
Glad you like it! Just lemme know if you come around 😊
Not true! many people that join have no money everyone is welcome. It is not a cult. It is a way to look at yourself.
I think your assessment is unfair and untrue. No one is ever asked for money when attending an SGI meeting. Furthermore, one can practice for a lifetime without contributing a cent. I suggest you look up the definition of "cult." Referring to SGI as a "cult'" is simply not accurate.
@@danawinsor1380found the cult member lol 😂
I was involved with Soka Gakkai in the early 1980's. Ultimately it was not a good experience for me. It is definitely Not the Dharma of Sidhattha Gotoma. It was probably Dausaku Ikeda's Dharma. But it is not the Buddha Dharma. The Dharma is about letting go not accumulating. The Soka Gakkai was most definitely cult-like.
Thanks for the comment, Ricardo.
@@stephaniecherry33 I'll bet this "friend" isn't acting friendly any more. SGI members routinely shun and condemn any of their fellow members who leave. And they'll never accept any explanation as reasonable - they're just like Evangelical Christians in this regard. Instead of accepting your explanation, they'll make up ridiculous, insulting excuses for why you left, as your "friend" did - you were "selfish". Or "jealous". Or maybe you were upset that you didn't get the pony you chanted for. Or you couldn't get along with your leaders. Or you couldn't accept "strict guidance" (their euphemism for a harsh scolding that you're supposed to accept with a "Thank you - may I have another?"). You might even have been mentally ill or "demon possessed" or overwhelmed with (imaginary) "fundamental darkness"!! ANYTHING to make it all YOUR FAULT that you left, because otherwise they might have to entertain the notion that there was something wrong with their precious SGI that they've all been indoctrinated to view as their very *identity* and to be willing to give their very *LIVES* for.
@@stephaniecherry33 I left SGI in 2019 after four years. I wouldn't recommend it to a heroin addict. My ultimate reason for leaving: the Gohonzon and Mystic Law failed me when I needed them the most. And no matter how much I tried to push through that, which I did for nearly two years, I could never fully trust them if they would fail me when I needed financial aid, they're likely to fail me in the event of lay off and rent being due in three days.
If anyone tells you that you don’t need to know what something means, just do it...YOU SHOULD RUN LIKE HELL lol
@@rabbitwho yeah clear indication it does not work lol
If you’re referring to SGI and Nichiren Buddhism, General guidance constantly encourages study and examination of the sutras and history of the practice. Chanting of words and syllables by millions around the globe links us together and sound and resonance, it’s truly not necessary to know every meaning of every word intellectually.
I sympathize with your comment. Let me say this: if you're referring to SGI, let me clarify: it is not correct to say "you don't need to know what something means, just do it." What is true: you don't need to grasp the teachings of Buddhism in order to start chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo. This is important. Why? Because no one can grasp the teachings of Buddhism right away, and one is earnestly encouraged to study Buddhism assiduously throughout one's practice. Do you see the distinction? Nam Myoho Renge Kyo has a literal superficial meaning which any Nichiren Buddhist can tell you or you can look it up. However, each syllable carries multiple meanings, which are not easy to understand immediately. The teachings of Buddhism are profound and take years of study in order to gain deeper understanding and no one ever "finishes" learning. So of course it is one's own choice whether or not to begin practicing, but if one chooses not to, it's not necessary to be hostile towards the SGI and it's members.
I've been a member to Soka Gakkai, I really love the practice, and still chant. But I know the meaning of everything that i chant, because I searched and have been studied buddhism by my own. But it is definitely a cult, I feel so sorry for the people that are there, beliving all that and dedicating their life to that, these are good people....I'm just glad that somehow I managed to be imune to the brainwash....
Glad to hear you are doing well and finding joy in your practice. 🙏
Soka Gakkai was originally a lay organization of Nichiren Shoshu until the latter excommunicated the group enmasse sometime in the 1990s, I think. One does not have to be a member of an organization to be a Nichiren Buddhist, and SGI certainly is not the all-encompassing representative of Nichiren Buddhism by any stretch. I enjoy being an independent practitioner and have no intention of joining ANY group; but I do admire the open-minded approach of the Nichiren Shu sect. Needless to say, there are plenty of books that explain what Nichiren Buddhism is all about (from all sects and from individuals) and one doesn't need a leader or a group to study them.
@@TheWaxworker I can't help concluding that you've never actually *read* Nichiren's supposed writings. He demanded that the government chop the heads off all the other Buddhist priests and burn their temples to the ground, so that Nichiren would be the only Buddhist game in town. He wanted *all* the power and *all* the influence and was willing to see the entire populace of Japan butchered/enslaved just to prove he was all that. Nichiren blatantly ripped off the Nembutsu chanting practice - Nichiren started out his priest career as a Nembutsu priest (certainly you're aware of that - it's in Nichiren's own writings) - and it's a bunch of nonsense. Nothing of the Nichiren practice is actually described in the Lotus Sutra; the practice consists of mindlessly repeating the name of the Lotus Sutra in archaic Chinese characters pronounced Japanese-like (real rational there) as if it's a magic spell. That's supposed to be the equivalent of reciting/copying the Lotus Sutra in its entirety. Imagine if college students thought that mindless repetitions of the titles of their course books would miraculously impart understanding of the books' contents. Do you think THAT would work?
@@dorisfromage2349 It's been working for me for the last five years
A cult is when you are held against your will.pnly a fool would let them control their mind I been there 30years and no one controls me.i do it my way ...
What Doug said. Been there, tried that, and the sad thing is that I knew better from both past experience and formal education. If you start doing something - praying, chanting, meditating, polishing random doorknobs - and things seem to start going more your way, it is not some god, guide, guru, or teacher that is making that "benefit" happen. It is you. You changing your mindset, are doing things to make your life better, even without being conscious of doing so. There IS some hard science to support the mental and physical benefits of meditation (skip the candle), but if you have made some change and your life is starting to get better, it is not because something outside of you is doing woo-woo stuff, it is because you have made a not-necessarily-well-thought-out-plan-and/or- commitment to make the kinds of decisions to make that happen. Cooking at home instead of doing so much expensive, not so healthy dining out, not buying that mint-condition Han Solo action figure and saving the money instead, comparative rather than impulsive shopping. Ok, ok. Buying the Han Solo action figure IS an empirically proven, peer-reviewed scientific way to enlightenment. But for the most part, the benefit is coming from you, and you do not need to attend a bunch of meetings where people who don't know you will get all up in your face about what is wrong with you, and you are expected to put blind faith in some old, quite possibly dead guy who magically has a connection to you. Just saying,
Thanks Keith, great thoughts. I even used to have a Han Solo action figure back in the day! 😄
Keith Payne yeah the problem is that SGI Folks believe that they can get everything simply by whishing it. You can’t alter reality trought will, you can’t get the Love of your life, Wealth and Jobs through magik
...OMG, wonderful comment. Thank you!!
If someone was suffering from trauma and isolation and joined Bird Watchers of America, or Stamp Collectors United, or even just the Neighborhood Watch, they'd perceive a temporary improvement to their mental state because of interacting with other people and sharing a common goal. Unfortunately, SGI preys on traumatized people, claiming to be helping their "life condition", and then exploits them for free labor. They form a deep bond and feel as though they have been reborn through this group, kind of like the military does, and it's very hard for them to see they're being taken advantage of.
I was taken to a Nichiren Buddhist group in Seattle by a friend when I was first getting interested in Buddhism about 1990 (like you I found myself gravitating to a secularized form of Theravada), It was interesting but I couldn't understand why it was considered Buddhism? I still easily remember that chant...
Indeed!
I belonged to the SGI for a year and I would most definitely classify it as a cult. I was told when i joined that It was simply a new way of thinking and that I could belong to any religion I wanted to. Then a year later I was told if I chanted enough I would realize there was no God. Daisaku Ikeda was practically worshipped and there was even a song sung to him. We were even given a picture of him to put by our gohonzon. Then there was constantly being told you needed to go out and bring people into the practice when I'm super uncomfortable with that. You didn't do anything to help society either except chant. I was told that the poor don't need our help. They just needed to chant. And then there was the weeklong videos we had to see where they begged for money and told you all the great benefits you would get if you donated. The whole thing was super creepy. It was even creepier when I left and they kept hounding me to rejoin. I'm definitely glad to be out of there.
Thanks for the info Jenni!
Hello.You left .I am glad hearing it.But i am an old hokeko member .Just my old teachings from It.🇯🇵
that’s definitely now how it was when I was younger, or how it is in our country
I really think it's a branch of satanism to be honest.
Intention and motivation for our actions is the ultimate ticket I think. Gosh, thank you so much for sharing this! Very interesting perspective and information.
I had almost an exact experience 40 years ago thru a martial arts instructor. After a few weeks i realized it wasn’t for me or what I was searching for. When i attempted to leave,I was harassed by several members almost on a daily basis. Finally I told the leader that if this didn’t stop I knew our county District Attorney and would be speaking with him. All harassment ceased.
😳
Yeah, I met a bunch of very odd people when my dental hygienist convinced me after constant badgering to come to a meeting. Total cult.
Ditto. Read my recent post at top this thread. I stopped attending and they made four attempts to invite themselves to my home for a "home visit" which seemed super Jehovah's Witness like and turned me off. I was wondering if I was overreacting but now I know I was spot on. If it feels cult-like and strange, it is.
Rajneesh (later knownn as Osho) was a cult leader. I lived those days and met many Rajneeshis before he changed his name and moved to Oregon. I was very impressed by all of them. They were the "beautiful people" we were always trying to find and be in those hippie days. So I read every book I found and could afford ( in my youth I was poor ) and was fascinated by the insight and depth into world religions this man had. Also his message was very existential and psychological while showing a great degree of skepticism himself. In fact he was an atheist. So as a former christian that really was the message I was longing for. Never joined the cult but kept all his books even up to this day. That guy was absolutely brilliant and most of what he said made utter sense to any seeker who was highly educated and skeptic of the "woo woo" found among new age folks and occultists. More like J. Krishnamurti I would say. I admit I still read his books on Zen and Tao and dare say he had an impressive understanding and insight on Zen particularly and it's hard not to think when you are reading him he was not a Zen teacher. Rajneesh message still informs and helps my practice and life in remarkable ways although I am aware of the dark side of the "collective" and "social" part of Rajneesh's work. To me it was just somebody speaking to me as an individual just as Krishnamurti was.That intuition is what kept me out of the cult.
A healthy degree of skepticism is always very necessary.
"Test all things. Hold fast to what is good" (the christian apostle Paul)
🙏
The purpose of the chant is transformation; its benefits are vast and generally not materialistic (although prosperity comes with this transformation). I had a similar experience in my exploration of this and immediately understood that the benefits were available without joining a group. Most of the people were very nice, but the pressure to join was evident; they stopped speaking to me when they realized I was more interested in a personal, private experience. But the “leader” did show me how to chant and gave me much helpful info - whether that was leading to me joining I’m not sure, but he has since stopped speaking to me, which was disappointing; we had a lot of fun, I thought we were friends, and I was sad at the prospect that my learning hinged on some kind of indoctrination.
This form of chanting is very effective and helpful, but I believe it’s a personal experience; and you will know if it’s right for you.
Whenever anyone tells you aren’t worthy of something unless you follow a group, RUN.
@@PianoCeleb I can relate I've been chanting over 40 yrs independently/not member of any group keep following your ❤
Thanks for this video!! I knew sgi in a vulnerable moment of my life, after ending an 8-year relationship in a new country. Looking back I think that this fact made me more "easy" to be persuaded by the sgi, even though that from the beginning many things did not like me, for example, the obsession of calling Nichiren the real Budha with no real support whatsoever, ignoring the role or not giving enough importance to Shakyamuni, and most of all, the dogmatism, I had to do mental gymnastics every time I read a sgi document, all of them talk about how the sgi is the only organization that defends the "real Buddhism" and how the only and expressway to enlightenment is the sgi or Nichiren Buddhism. I think the practice of daimoku is good and it may help you in moments of your life, like everything in Buddhism, you have to live it and experiment with it for your self, but the thing is that people in the sgi have a dogmatic approach about it, they talk a lot about the real practice and the other approaches are wrong. I quit it, and know doing vipassana, I think they are responsible about people leaving the organization, they just care about getting more and more members and become kind of multinational religion or something like it, they just care about that!! Anyway thanks, I've learned a lot from watching you!
Thanks Carlos, glad you're finding it useful! 🙏
@@TiberioTrip Hi, I'd love to read that literature!! Where can I find it? I really appreciate it if you can help me with that.
Yeah, me too. I first "met the practice" (as the Gakkai like to say) when I hit a milestone birthday and had a "what is the meaning of life moment". Then drifted away as it became weirder. Then had a bad accident a few years later and my relationship ended and I drifted back to them. now over a decade later I am finally realising how toxic the Organisation and their little, ancient, Japanese demi-god are. So many people in that Organisation know next to nothing about Buddhism, only the badly written drivel of the old Japanese man. *shudder*
@@TiberioTrip So true! like 90% book in their "bookshops" is by him. If any bookshop only has books by one person, leave!
@@TiberioTrip Hi! Thanks for the info. Would you mind providing a link or something for the Trancendental Meditation? I went to an SGI Temple in college ONE time and never went back and I couldn’t for the life of me remember why, but it’s probably because of the culty feel lol. I love the whole “come as you are” vibe, but I’m in a bit of tight spot and I KNOW I need something so I started looking them up again and I’m glad this video came up after someone who works for the temple sent me some videos to watch. Divinity at its finest. Anyhoo, I’d appreciate some more info! Thanks!
For those who have had bad experiences with SGI, I strongly advise you to look into the Nichiren Shu sect of Buddhism. Note that they are not Nichiren Shoshu, which is where the SGI came out of, and there are some doctrinal differences(there are basically three main schools of Nichiren Buddhism, Nichiren Shoshu, the SGI, and Nichiren Shu). Nichiren Shu does not believe that Nichiren was a Buddha and instead that he was a great bodhisattva(which is actually supported by his writings, he never proclaimed himself a Buddha), and their practices consist of chanting Namu Myoho Renge Kyo (The 'u' was left off by Shoshu and SGI, but that is the formal way to recite it and what Nichiren actually wrote in his writings), reading and reciting the Lotus Sutra in all it's part (not just two chapters), copying the sutra, and chanting the sutra both in Shingon as well as the native language of the practitioner(It's pretty far out to chant the sutra in English, unlike in SGI you'll actually start to understand the meaning, intent, and narrative of the sutra, and therefore it's teachings). Nichiren Shu is way more ecumenical than SGI or Nichiren Shoshu, they will sometimes even do sitting meditation before and after chanting the Odaimoku, along with other prayers and practices. I assure you that it is a very different experience from SGI, the difference between night and day. There are online sangha communities that might be worth looking at if you are interested. Good luck!
Great, thanks for the information! 🙏
i was born into this soka gakkai religion and was told at a young age that this is the only religion i should practice, i was never given any answers as to why. my parents are huge and very committed practitioners. i didnt think much of it when i was young. as i grew older and learned about cults was when i got an inkling that it is one. my parents would try to covert people into this religion with the promise of material gains which is not at all what buddhism is about. what threw me off more was the members idolizing the sensei, which is another cult like sign. they brain wash people with the promise of getting whatever you pray for. i live in singapore and they even make little booklets for you to set goals on how many hours you want to chant. it seemed to me like ways to brain wash people. i have been trying to leave but my parents are too committed to let me leave.
they often step over boundaries too. when i was in isolation for chemo, they would just walk in my room without any prior warning to tell me to chant more, they gave me books about soka gakkai and beads. this was stepping wayyyyy over boundaries and when i told them i felt uncomfortable, they came anyways. they prey on people who are desperate for answers from the higher ups and desperate for material gains. they are very aggressive and will not go away unless you cut them off completely. i hear and see my parents be those people all the time and it is very annoying that i am the only one who did research from outside sources instead of only listening to whatever they teach.
Sorry to hear it a! That sounds like a very difficult situation to have to live through.
I too, was born into the SGI. And I find it so bizarre and upsetting reading some of the experiences of people and how they are introduced to it. I think I am very lucky to have my father's very level headedness added to my practice of Nichiren Buddhism. I remember when we were excommunicated from the Nichiren ShoShu. It was somewhere around 1990, and I was a child still, and was very surprised. However, as I have practiced and grown up in the practice, I have seen people take this practice and twist it within the oraganization. They have used it to gain feelings of power. And have gone on 'campaigns' to get as many people as possible to 'CHANT' or participate in activities. I have seen some members take it to the point of bullying, or to the detriment of person they are trying to 'convert.' This has never been my understanding of this practice of buddhism. While many have been brought in to the practice under the guise of "Hey! Chant this, and you'll get whatever you want." It really is far beyond that, and I feel it is a disservice to use it as a 'magic wand for material gain.' I have also met some truly genuine people who practice and don't get that fanatical look in their eye, who have taught me and supported me. I have always been told by my father, if you are going to follow or practice any religion, you must have faith, practice, and study. Even if you are born into the SGI, you must find your own relationship with your practice of Nichiren Buddhism. It would break my father's heart if I were to leave the practice, but I am my own person, and he supports me whatever my choice is. As it is, I rarely attend meetings. But the end goal of this, is to find happiness, and not to harm others in the process.
I am a member of Soka Gakkai. I ran away from the organization for a decade before I became committed. Originally, It indeed felt like a cult and I felt members were pesky, weird and stepped on my boundaries. I detached from SGI, studying Nichiren Buddhism on my own as well as exploring other faiths before returning to SGI. Nichiren Buddhism resonated with me and it does help to have a community to reinforce it. Upon return, I established strong boundaries with the members. NO PHONE CALLS-period. They got it. I began practicing on my own terms. It's helped me a lot. SGI is more geared towards folks who are especially disenfranchised-People of Color, Gays, Disabled, Poor People... I think that's why people recruit as heavy as they do-they feel they just want to help people. There is no "kool aid" or "red pill". It's just chanting.
nice- i hear you i'm a reluctant sgi member-but IT Is as Toda said for the poor and disenfranchised -and it really helps- says a lot the the SGI attracts people who need the practice and is a social good- i find other buddhist modalities in the west pretty middle class and bourgeois to be honest-although great.
AS an ex-SGI (NSA) member for a decade, I can speak from experience! You have become unknowingly BRAINWASHED! My landlady has a daughter who is SGI, and OH MY GOD! Talk about cultlike symptoms of maniacal conduct, She is lost now, her brain (what is left of it is almost swimming in propaganda marinade! PLEAS GET FAR AWAY from that group and seek a deprogramming medical specialist! I have only been suckered out of my MONEY as I had inadvertenly (could not help but hear their so-called 'guidance' to their junior leaders, and they had actually ADMITTED the gohonzon and all that religious crap is naught but a 'CARROT' to entise small minded people into their fold. The REAL major crux of the organisation is their BOOKSHOP and SUPPLY CENTRE! That is their source of INCOME worldwide as to funnel into Sumitomo Bank and thus transferred to the account of their political (yes POLITICAL) off-shoot KOMEITO! YOU NEED HELP! PLEASE donät become like my landlady's crazy daughter she has been in since 1974! Shameful! There are OTHER Nichiren sects )38 sects and subsects in japan) that are more SANER, more relaxed, and RESPECT the very foundation of Buddhism that spans ALL sects inclusive of Nichiren, and are the two founding pillars of Buddhism! The Four Noble Truths, and the Eightfold Path. The Fuji mon ryo (Fuji School) are the only four sects that have REJECTED these very important tenets!
Renee Robinson please, don’t send to me your tulpa to kill me just because i don’t believe i can get a girlfriend and richness trought chanting
Oh, there's Kool-Aid a plenty, Renee, and you're drunk on it. You were smart to run away. Too bad you succumbed to the cult come-on.
@@A_Muzik So you're studying the Lotus Sutra "more"? Have you gotten to Chapter 25 yet, where it states plainly that EVERYONE must worship Bodhisattva Quan Yin (Kannon in Japanese)? What about THAT?
I had a similar experience with SGI. I met a couple of them at an SGI information booth at a local fair. They were quite nice and I was intrigued. So I accepted their invitation to come to their house later in the week for an SGI service. There were about a dozen people there and they were all very friendly. Then we started chanting and this went on for 30 minutes. I had no idea what I was chanting or what that weird script was on the alter. Frankly I got bored with it.
After we were done I asked what we just chanted and they blew off the question. I then asked what was the point of the chanting and they said to bring your heart's desire. Then one by one they started talking about how chanting healed their diseases, helped them get a new car, got them a raise, etc. It was all about getting stuff! It was a complete turn-off for me! It reminded me of the "prosperity Gospel" where they believe that God wants you to have all kinds of goodies and you just have to ask for it. I never went back. In my opinion SGI is Buddhist in name only.
Yes it does have similarities with the prosperity gospel. Odd stuff.
Doug you just got hooked up with a weird group that's part of a larger legit organization. . . Also, I knew from day one what the chant meant and everyone was eager to tell me. However, with anything people should always do your own research before joining anything!
Exactly so, thanks TC!
I know the Buddha said that there are numerous paths to enlightenment, but for me it just makes sense to stick to Early Buddhism as close as possible. It is the most tried and tested and therefore just seems like the best bet. I try to remain openminded but traditional meditation is what the buddha practiced and therefore I think anyone who calls themself a buddhist should heed his example. I also appreciate your eloquence and careful words with this sensitive subject sir. Sadhu
Thanks Grayden. I agree that the path outlined in early Buddhism is the most congenial for me as well. But yes, we should remain openminded about other approaches. Even though they may not be for us, they may be better for others. 🙏
I met some girls in Japan, by chance in the street (which is like a huge red flag/sketchy and I should have definitely been more careful, but I can't change the mistakes I've made in the past. I can only prevent things from happening in the future.) So, we exchanged contact info via a commonly used social media app, and we scheduled a time to hang out again. That time was yesterday evening. So My friend and I went to meet up with them, they brought us to Tokiwadai, and gave our names to this woman who was leading the chant, and I swear I've been indoctrinated into the "Form of Buddhism that shall not be named", I don't know if I was. The only reason is they seemed to be welcoming us in, mentioning our names and such. The two girls asked what we thought and I told them the beads and prayers reminded me a bit of Catholicism (a religion I grew up practicing all my life), and one of them seemed to be incredibly uncomfortable after I had mentioned that.
The girls also invited my friend and I to an event in Saitama on Tuesday (which will be tomorrow, from the time I post this), and we just said we had other things to do, which was not a lie, but one of the girls seems insistent that I go. I find it interesting, however, it isn't a religion I am entirely interested in getting involved with at this moment in time. I'm glad to have found your video talking about this experience, because I wasn't sure if my experience was with some deep underground cult nonsense.
Thanks for your comment SoulRamen, I can't speak to your experience because I don't know who that really was, but I'd say generally "go with your gut". If it feels sketchy, leave it aside. You can always go back later if your thoughts change. FWIW when I first went to an Insight (Vipassana) center I felt immediately at home, and I've also felt quite warm and at home at Zendos, depending on who's leading. Pressure to attend is usually a red flag in my book. 🙂
Thank you for your reply. :) I look forward to watching more of your videos!
The "cult which must not be named" was called NSA at the time - Nichiren Shoshu of America. It has since been renamed "Soka Gakkai International" - SGI-USA - after the leaders and the group were excommunicated by their former temple parent Nichiren Shoshu. He's talking ca. 30 years ago - 1987 - that's when I was recruited, in a state in the upper MidWest, and I can tell you it was *exactly* like what he was describing at that point. I had to wait 6 months to get my scroll because there was no priest in our state; we had to wait until the priests from the Chicago temple would road trip up to do the ceremony (with the tap on the forehead, yeah). So if a priest were in town to do a ceremony *that night*, there was DEFINITELY a big push to drag anything with a pulse in! I saw THAT, too. His recollections ring true and are absolutely *typical* for what was going on in NSA at that time. Yeah, run like hell :D
Ha! Glad to hear you had the same experience, it wasn't just our small group. Well, it was a long time ago now. 🙂
I was in the SGI for years in L.A then Minneapolis, you're spot on. There's too many stories to tell here. They use to like to check up on members by showing up at there door and giving you ,"guidance " I mailed my gohonzon back.
I use to wash the walls and do free cleaning at The SGI building ,they would tell you you're working off karma by volunteering constantly there more like working for free.
It's really sickening how fake the members are they reach out to you around May Contribution month telling you to give a donation.
Thanks for your input, Mary.
Hi Doug. I appreciate your the honesty and diplomacy of your experience. I have over 30 years of experience with the unnamed organization of which you speak and I am aware that a lot of weird shit has happened over the years. I still feel the basic practice is valid, however, in spite of all of the bad presentation and admittedly cult-like actions taken by however well-intentioned leaders and members. I actually find that a lot of current non-organization books serve as a better introduction, such as Buddhism 3.0 and Buddhism 3.1. When the organization was connected to to the priesthood, there was a lot of insane pressure to proselytize and in my opinion in the there was a lot of Japanese vs. American culture clash and a lot of diversity issues over the years. While I think things are better now, a fellow member and I had a weird experience visiting the New York Center, and yet had a fabulous experience at the Mexico City centers. We also chanted atop the (non-Buddhist) Temple of the Sun in Teotihuacan, awesome! I only have one small argument regarding the "prosperity" message. Many people in this world are jobless or lack fortune due to internal issues, and when they can change their internal negativity, many times their environment will positively reflect back their inner transformation. When I joined almost everyone had nothing so to get a job was a good thing, etc. It's easy for those who already have fortune and privilege and can afford to take a vow of poverty or forsake the world. There. that's my little rant. I'm going to continue to enjoy your vlogs - I think you have something important to say; in some ways what you are trying to do is parallel to what the establisher of this practice (I'll call him Sun Lotus) was trying to do with his writings by sorting through the wheat and the chaff in the Buddhist teachings, however badly his intention has been distorted. Thanks.
Thanks for your kind comments, Lee. They are very interesting. I don't feel like my experience of this form of Buddhism was deep enough for me to draw any firm conclusions about its usefulness or validity. That said, the Buddha did teach that the practice of lay ethics was "good business" as they say; that is, that part of good lay practice could indeed be along the path towards gaining a proper living. The only issue is when that becomes distorted as the true aim of practice generally.
Absolutely. Thanks, Doug
The reality is that all that "Japanese vs. American culture clash" has only gotten WORSE since Nichiren Shoshu excommunicated Daisaku Ikeda and his cult of personality; without the priests' moderating influence, it's since gone Full Ikeda 24/7. The SGI only exists to glorify and worship Ikeda, and somehow, despite the membership being mostly lower-middle-class at best, the SGI has *unlimited* money which it uses to buy up honorary degrees for Ikeda, parks and streets to name for Ikeda, lobbying local governments to establish "Daisaku Ikeda Day"s, to publish ghost-written books with Ikeda's name rubber-stamped upon them, to buy up millions upon millions of dollars of foreign real estate (the titles and ownership are held by the Soka Gakkai in Japan, which controls whatever is going to happen in and to those buildings), and to purchase millions upon millions of dollars of fine art to grace the art museum which will one day bear Ikeda's name the way all the other buildings and monuments do. If you want to be involved with glorifying and worshiping some distant nobody who has done nothing but promote himself and become obscenely wealthy while living a banana republic dictator's/billionaire's lifestyle at everyone else's expense, be my guest. Look up "Internal Reassessment Group (IRG)" to see what happened when a group of very devout SGI-USA members decided to brainstorm ways to make SGI more consistent with American cultural values and norms. Spoiler: It didn't end well - at all. The SGI is a Japanese religion for Japanese people, a virulently intolerant religion whose intention is to take over the world and impose their culture on everyone. Fortunately for us all, almost nobody wants to join a virulently intolerant Japanese religion for Japanese people, even in Japan.
WE ALL KNOW IT, SGI FREAKED ME OUT ALSO
😄
I mentioned it to someone I wanted to join. Have her my number. She kept calling then her son started texting and now another guy keeps calling texting asking me to join.....
It's Ikedaism not Buddhism. I prefer mindfullness meditation now. Focussing on the breath. No beliefs. No believing im studying the highest teaching. Scientifically proven benefits. Simple. I do 2 hrs a day now. I'm free from SGI. No regrets.
Why is that.if u feel that way just don't mess with us.dont freak out
Me too.
Hi Doug! My reasons for exploring Buddhism (Secular) are to try and ease my 'suffering', improve my mental health, become a better person; to help me help others. I have no interest at all in making more money than I need. No interest in social climbing. I am accutely aware of how fragile and precious this 'one life' of ours is. I have been visiing my local Buddhist centre for a few years but was never at ease with the overt religiosity. They are also New Kadampa Tradition which puts me off even further. So coming across 'Secular Buddhism' has opened new doors for me. Allowing me to follow a practice I am comfortable with. I will still got to the NKT centre because I have never felt that they wanted anything from me (other than the few pounds for the meditation class) and because I believe them to be good people (even if their spiritual leader is misguided). Keep the videos coming...I find them informative and interesting. Btw any arrogance you think you have is not evident in the videos :-)
Thanks, Patrick. Yes, sometimes we have a limited number of local options and have to make do. Most sanghas of most traditions are full of perfectly decent people with whom we can practice usefully, and even if a tradition may not seem perfect for us, it can at least be interesting to spend time with them and see how they approach all these questions.
I spent most of 2023 with the NKT here in Phoenix, Arizona USA. NKT has a cult like obsession with their recently deceased leader Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche. I really got tired of hearing the monks repeat his name over and over and over, weird. I am now attending SGI-USA a few months in 2024 but I'm already getting turned off with this group and their pushy agenda. Read my story recently I published on this post.
For another viewpoint regarding the Fuji Schools of Nichiren Buddhism ... try the first 3 to 5 episodes of A Buddhist Podcast by Jason Jarrett (from the UK, now lives in Canada)
Thanks for the suggestion Old Gringo.
Thank you. I'm an American living in Taiwan, and there's temples (Taoist/Buddhist) everywhere. I have found that, yes chanting, "AMITOUFU" really means, "GIVE ME MONEY"... I think that motivation is a good start, you can eventually grow. But I was lucky enough to of found a good teacher out here. Thznk you got this video
why does it mean give me money? isn't it a chant for blessings?
@mariepeng good question, I go back n forth. We need comfort to practice, but from what I See, asking for material blessings, though needed, isn't what Buddha was aiming for. But , hey, ask and we shall receive. ✌️
This is so interesting. I am interested in cults from a psychological perspective. Usually we associate cults with Christian groups but there are high control sects from all walks of life. I was raised with the JW and got out of that. I live in Cambodia and recently I went to a vegetarian Taiwanese restaurant and the owner was a lovely elderly woman. She invited me to her temple and it was a Buddhist temple so I figured I would like to check it out for the experience. So I went and I noticed they had a strict dress code had to be a white shirt with a collar. They also had pictures and statues of other people than Buddha. The men entered on the right and the woman on the left. There were 1,000 prostration and mudras. It turned out that this was not 100% Buddhist but it was Taoist and I didn't like the deception. It had the simple tactics of experience and how this has helped your life. Then there was indoctrination class . They wanted me to sleep at the temple /school for the night and I was like I am busy I need to go back to the city. They again tried to talk me into staying and I again insisted that I had to go to take care of my dog. I didn't like how they came across as a Chinese school but are teaching their beliefs I would be upset if I entrusted my child to this '' school '' in the thought of them learning Chinese but little Chinese was being taught. I have gone to the restaurant again and I couldn't think of the workers the same knowing that they are all students of this sect. I saw the elder woman and I remember doing the special mudra or hand posture they taught us and she said that it is a secret and I should not do it outside of the temple. She wanted me to be a student and study with her but I told her that I have a job and bills that I can't just drop everything. She asked again and I got firm I said that I wanted to learn Chinese not change my spiritual practice. She has called several times and invited me to the temple but I refuse to go back. Not for me. It was an interesting experience but I got the impression it was a high control group.
Yes there are many as you say high control groups out there. I'm not comfortable with that sort of approach personally, either.
一貫道
that is actually also not taoist cult, but it's cult called "yi guan dao" they do strict vegetarian diet, they worship maitreya, guanyin and guan gong
I went to some SGI gatherings hoping to learn more about Buddhism in general when I was young and very ignorant but curious. It was surprising to me how they never discussed anything that had to do with the Buddha and his teaching. They chanted and talked about their problems and how they overcame them with the prayer as you said. They talk more about Daisaku Ikeda than the Buddha itself. When I tried to leave because I was uninterested they contacted me for a while but didn't pressure me to stay, which was good I guess. It really felt as a cult to me. Thanks for the video! I love your channel and I am learning a lot ☺️
Interesting Miguel! It's also true that many later schools of Buddhism spend very little if any time at all discussing the early material from Sakyamuni. For example in many Zen temples one will hear about Dōgen. There's not necessarily anything wrong with that, it just depends what's being taught, and what the practices promote.
My main issue with that particular group was the fact that the members were all very pushy. That's why I decided to stop all the stream of mails, newsletters and meetings. Because once you start to get into that circle you feel pressured to say yes at anytime, at least for me this was very off putting. And I was under the impression that there was a sort of blaming implied if you didn't take part in all the group activities, almost like you were not doing it the right way. I know that members who bring new members to the orgainization and introduce you to the Mystic Law in theory will benefit from that. But I felt a general unease, maybe because it seems quite a strict and imposing way to be Buddhist. (doing it twice a day everyday)
I'm not saying I was brainwashed at all and I feel sorry for those who might have been, but I felt a sort of heaviness and obsessive trait in the people I've met who were part of the group. On the other hand, I do think that even by chanting a single OM you awaken and shake something within you that is very powerful. So chanting has got surely some benefits. My personal experience with it is that after I've chanted I felt more energetic and with more life force but I don't know if this happened as well to some of you, I felt even a bit exhausted. Of course if you chant for one hour it's very active! It activated my "solar plexus" area and energized my whole body, and intentions were clearer.
So I think I will give it another go but this time I would like to follow my own rhythm with more compassion and I don't want to be part of any group. I was wondering if any of you had a similiar experience to mine.
Thanks for your input Alex. 🙏
Hello. Yes you can practice for yourself but Nichiren Shonin's teachings are in many Sects here in Japan. And Soka Sgi. are not the True teachings from them.There is not human revolution teachings from The Nichiren at all.Japan.
SGI has apparently toned down since their more forceful ways decades ago. Still, in Japan we always see them appear during political elections (followers often ask non-SGI friends to vote for a certain person). Another weird thing is the "other religions" sections at the bookstores - usually an entire bookcase is full of books "by" Ikeda; another entire bookcase is full of Okawa Ryuho's books (he leads another cult). These two dwarf other books about religion for sale.
Interesting, I had no idea. Thanks Wubb.
I practiced several forms of Buddhism over the years. SGI was the least Buddhist of these. Yes, chanting was about getting "benefits" (one of the group's buzz words). I disengaged when I realized that if I heard the phrase "Buddhism is about winning" one more time I would puke. You don't study the Buddha's teachings in SGI. You study the writings and autobiography of the group's charismatic leader. So, is it a cult? Well, here are some of the defining characteristics of a cult. ✓It is focused on a charismatic leader. ✓It uses buzz words to create group cohesion. ✓Its followers believe their doctrine contains the one and only truth. ✓It provides frequent activities or living conditions that isolate you from the general public. (SGIers frequently chant together in each other's homes. You are assigned to local groups.) ✓You build a sense of exclusivity by identifying a common enemy. (For SGI this would involve members railing against the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood.) Additionally, the one "Buddhist" text revered by SGI is the Lotus Sutra. The first known version is in Chinese, not Sanskrit. It's very likely not an original Buddhist text. I never actually heard any discussions of the Lotus Sutra. I suspect that few SGIers have actually read it from cover to cover. Have the people who maintain SGI's RUclips page read it? The page features a member who is a famous actor and another follower who is a successful writer. This, despite the fact that the Lotus Sutra explicitly forbids Buddhists from associating with actors and writers of secular literature (not to mention followers of other religions, the Jain religion in particular.)
Interesting, thanks Muttonchop Hal.
I would like to add a point...
In a similar practice, we are asked to chant for someone who is suffering and for their peace of mind. When ever I do it, I feel I am becoming more compassionate and a better human. It really rewires your brain from egoistic attitude to a more compassionate outlook.
Thanks anshul, that's a nice practice.
Your experience with "the people who worship the lotus sutra" is very common. I was raised chanting "namyo ho renge kyo" I never received luxuries, but I did see the ability to manifest with our environment. I had a crime committed against me and as a kid I remember being so focus on the event during my chanting. The next day it turned out the criminal had been arrested due to a witness I didn't know was there. Could it be the chanting or my intentions driven by a meditative state? I don't know. I still listen to lotus sutra English recordings, but I follow anything vedic (upanishads, Bagavad Gita etc) and every Buddhist sutra I can find. This channel has been really great to listen on my path in life. I'm committed to the Buddah path without dogmatic adherence.
Great, that's the way to go Jason. Just pursue the practice that seems most skillful. 🙏
I briefly joined SGI around 5-6 years ago. I had just gotten out of an emotionally abusive relationship and was looking for something spiritual. A friend of mine (who had recently transitioned) invited me to a women's meeting. She said the practice completely changed her life and had been part of the reason she had the confidence to transition. So, I went. It was a little weird but I was willing to go to a couple of other classes to learn more about it.
So, that next week I signed up for another class to get to know the practice better. About an hour before I was supposed to attend, I got a text that they had decided I was ready to receive my gohonzon and would receive it that evening. I was shocked.
When I attended the meeting and received my gohonzon, Everyone was congratulating me as if I had achieved something, but all I had to do was show up and pay 50 bucks. It was VERY strange and I was super put off.
The chanting felt inauthentic. I didn't know what I was saying and bowing and chanting a language I didn't understand to a piece of paper did not make me feel like I was doing anything substantial. I maybe chanted for about 3 weeks.
Then I got invited to a presentation by some of the people who were there when I received my gohonzon. I went with them, and man was that presentation WEIRD. Everyone was just talking about how wonderful the chanting was and how it changed their life. All these speakers and performances. I remember specifically a cancer patient who just went on and on about how wonderful the chanting was. But no one ever explained WHY. I just wanted to leave so bad. I stopped chanting after that.
I still have 3 good friends that are in SGI. They said it has changed their life and they have been able to totally transform themselves and have tapped into their happiness and their spiritual power. It makes me want to try again, but I just had SUCH an awful experience last time. I wish I hadn't been essentially forced into it and had been given the space to choose it for myself.
Yes, sorry to hear about your experience Sasha.
@@DougsDharma Thanks for the reply. I do feel like I want to try again. I'm not turned off by the materialistic push that comes from SGI. It's not that I want the material possessions and gains (I think wanting security and achievements is part of the human experience) but I want to be able to believe that I am worthy of them. If chanting can somehow change my internal dialogue and give me the confidence that everything will work out in my best interest ("faith" as some may call it) Then I am willing to give it another shot. I've tried so many things. Paganism, witchcraft, meditation...I've read so many self help books. I am willing to try anything at this point (although I know Christianity is not for me.)
Not sure why I'm telling you all of this. Maybe I just need to get it off my chest. Just searching for something that can better my life.
I also think the members of the "unnamed" group you mentioned approached you in a whack way. I am a member of this group. I , and most of my fellow members avoid aggressively pursuing or "Shakabukuing" people. But, I can attest there is a tendency for Type A fanatics to assume leadership positions in that group. My district has two who drive me crazy at times. While they are often the "face" of said group, they don't represent the core members. I also feel they have toned down a little in that regard throughout the years. J
Thanks so much for your comments, Nicole. I’m sure you’re right, and the practice can be useful for many people. I did enjoy the chanting! 😊
uh...no, within SGI, leaders do not "assume" leadership. They are APPOINTED by higher-ups in closed-door sessions. There's nothing democratic about SGI - it's a top-down authoritarian dictatorship run from the Soka Gakkai mother ship in Japan. Everyone in SGI is supposed to submit to their higher-ups and do as they're told - "obedience" and "unity" are the foremost virtues in the Ikeda cult SGI.
@@dorisfromage2349 I used to be a leader. It was by my own choice, no appointment.
Nichiren Buddhism right?
@@dorisfromage2349 that is false.I have been in all types of leadership in SGI and am a rebel at heart.I submit to no one. But i do care about people and their life condition. Sometimes they drive me crazy too but i chant because it helps my anxiety, ive seen benefit in my life. thats what i care about. Transforming myself and helping others
This was super helpful for me. I was raised Catholic, rejected it by age 13. Agnostic forever. Then in 2023 I started attending Kadampa Meditation Center in a large US metro area. The meditation did help me to achieve an intended goal, plus other unintended outcomes. That only went well for 9 months before I discovered their drama and toxic, abusive administrative personnel. Now I'm attending SGI-USA and I just don't resonate with one hour chanting sessions so I've backed off attending, ugh. I find it very strange that SGI members spend all this time chanting/praying to the gohonzon, which is a piece of printed paper with Japanese calligraphy symbols; I find this cult-like. I accomplished many goals with meditation last year, but these long repetitive chanting session are not for me... SGI is too controlling too. I have recently not been attending because of a medical issue and in the last month two different members (my district lead and a person I chose to be my sponsor even though I found SGI on my own without a sponsor)- each person has attempted to twice invite themselves to my home for a "home visit" which mirrored a Jehovah's Witness style to me and was a turn-off. I am assuming they are in constant contact to make sure I haven't lost interest; I may be wrong but that is the vibe I am receiving. Their relentless and aggressiveness on this issue signaled a major red-flag in my mind. It just seemed too controlling of an approach so I responded to all of these requests by stating: "Thank you but I'll instead see you at the SGI center". Then there is the SGI magazine and newspaper subscription which I ordered. The strange thing about this is the publication frequency is far too close together. I think I get that newspaper once every ten or 14 days; they are piling up and I haven't read any of them because there are too many; it's an overwhelming amount of stickiness in marketing. People have lives so this is extreme over-kill. SGI does seem political in that they lower the projection screen and play old video speeches of their last president, Daisaku Ikeda (who is now dead). Why would I want to watch that? It is totally unrelatable material for a new member. Have your funeral, have a yearly memorial if you want then move on after the president's death and preach Buddhist teachings. I brought a friend to one Sunday Kosen Rufu service. He said the same. He mentioned how strange it was watching that unrelatable political Ikeda video was and how the service could have had some meaning if they would instead have a talk on a Buddhist teaching making the event relevant. I too would rather hear a Buddhist teaching. And that was one of the good things about attending the New Kadampa Tradition in 2023 / Kadampa Meditation Center in a large US metro area- they have frequent Buddhist teachings which are relatable. The NKT tradition also had a bad habit of overly focusing on the founding monk Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche who passed away two years ago. I just want to find a good Buddhist tradition that is not weird, cult-like or filled with power hungry people. This appears to be a challenge.
Yes, it can take time to find the community that's right for you.
“Worldly desires lead to enlightenment “. Within my Sgi Buddhist sect we are aware of what the scroll 📜 says within the gohonzon. As one of my old mothers of faith says “follow the law, not the people”. I didn’t have the experience of getting tapped on the head with a stick. But I will say it can be different in different places because of the people, not the actual practice. Some folk have cult mentalities but I don’t let them pressure me into doing anything I don’t want. Leadership included.
Thanks for your input Gabriel. 🙏
Great stories Doug! Always good to hear some of your anecdotal experiences! More please!
😄I'll see if I can remember any more of them ...
I lived a SGI house as a teenager (divorced mother and her daughter) and it wasn't anything like what your experience was.
There was zero pressure to do any SGI stuff, but I went to a few of their chant meetings just to check it out.
I moved out on great terms and always remembered that as a pretty cool experience.
Never crossed my mind that it might be a cult, but I did find it weird that they had to purchase a new scroll every year to hang in the gohonzon.
I did run across a couple of definite cults in my years, though.
Freaky weird to be exposed to.
Glad to hear you had a good experience!
@@DougsDharma - They weren't pushy with me and I thought it would nice to mention it.
I also did find it weird to be encouraged to chant for selfish reasons.
It was a little weird.
I am not gonna name the sect, but a lay person told me to take the initiation on the spot. Thank goodness I researched more about their beliefs, and I quietly distanced myself from it. Now I go to a Tibetan temple. Having once been in a cult, I definitely knew anyone pressuring you or taking advantage of your vulnerability to get you in raises alarm bells.
Yes, if it doesn't feel right, then best to try somewhere else.
SGI is a cult. Ikeda who runs it is a ego dominant man who has got rich and made a career out of this. It's not buddism...
Thanks for your thoughts, Naomi!
Absolutely! More people need to speak out about it. I practiced for years before their cult like mind games pushed me away. I feel freer than ever now.
Hello.👍👍👍🇯🇵🇯🇵
Was looking for a buddhist church/organization where I could pray and meet other Buddhists and SGI came up and it instantly gave me weird vibes thank you for making this I would've ignored my gut intuition
Glad to hear it Gabby. I know their approach works for some people, but I think one really should trust one's gut on this sort of thing.
If you want a Sangha group search plum village and local groups they are everywhere and are not culty 🙏
I've been a member of SGI for twenty years with a ten year long break in the middle, practicing on my own... I the main reason I pull away is when no one calls me to say how ru? It's just to tell me about meetings. And they want to give me more responsibilities and don't even really ask! It can be a very toxic environment for anyone with mental health issues. They just tell you to get guidance from a senior leader who I don't even know... Some of the advice I've seen others give is very harmful... I can't just step back... I have to take a stand!
Thank you for this video and allowing me to vent. 🙏
🙏😊
I was part of SGI for a time but got tired of the endless chanting and hypocrisy. Achieving worldly things through chanting feels unsettling. Buddha's Buddhism is not about obtaining worldly treasures. Buddhism is not about igniting the flame of desire but blowing out the candle to return to nirvana and end the cycle of rebirth and death. I enjoy Zen Buddhism. In silence, there is wisdom. A calm spirit.
(Paraphrasing) “if your getting into Buddhism for worldly ends your wrong”
I …basically agree.
This not from a ‘rationalist/skeptic’ POV, but if someone becomes interested in Medicine Buddha or Green Tara because of the (many!) worldly benefits that they promise, that can become the basis of a relationship with the Buddhas and the Dharma.
Yes, even the Buddha did talk about worldly ends for being a good person: it makes us better in our jobs and businesses. But I think we should also focus a little higher. 😄
I am a member of SGI and I will say that there are some aspects that can appear very forceful and inauthentic. When I joined SGI, I wasn’t told anything about chanting for material gain. I was told to study this Buddhism diligently and use Ikeda Sensei’s explanation to understand Nichiren’s writings even more and in this way I can open the world of Buddhahood in me. I was so surprised to hear this and I am glad I stayed and have used this Buddhism to understand life and death. I think encountering right leaders and members is definitely helpful. I don’t push for shakubuku either. If people ask me about the philosophy, I tell them I am a Buddhist practitioner.
Thanks for your input! 🙏
Hello. Is Mr. Ikeda the Law? Japan.
@@1027HANA-lc5ke no. He is a Buddhist teacher who teaches about the mystic law and because the mystic law is in me, you and him, then yes in that sense he is the law but not in a god like way, but a person who upholds the law.
My experience with the form-of-Buddhism-that-shall-not-be-named (the local chapter you encountered may indeed have been run by Voldemort) was far more innocuous, if in fact your group was the same or some offshoot. The difference, if I'm remembering correctly (about 7 years ago), is that they had a translation of the text beneath the written chant, the main repeated chant meaning "homage to the Lotus Sutra," a sutra which I later on my own learned teaches that all beings in samsara will eventually become awakened. So I did not have that question dismissed out of hand as you did-though I had difficulty putting my finger on what they actually believed-nor was any induction urged upon me immediately after the initial session, though I was emphatically urged to return, and I attended perhaps a dozen or so meetings after. In hindsight, what bothered me was the emphasis on having faith in the chant, this after I had lost my faith in faith 3 years before. I was sold on Therevada Buddhism from books I'd read, and with limited local options, this was my first disappointment/realization that not all Buddhisms were the same, since little attention was paid to meditation or working with the mind. I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it, but there was also definitely a "Word of Faith" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Faith ) or "The Secret" vibe, which I chose to overlook at the time because these were people affiliated with Buddhism and I was looking for a community, and which, having lived down South for 4 years, I've been turned off by ever since. In Christian circles it's also referred to as the "prosperity message," and it's interesting to see the phenomenon creep up in a non-theistic religion, the sentiment is antithetical to real spiritual practice, since possessions or no possessions, success or not, all scriptures of all religions tell us that we should be able to be content in all circumstances. But for all that, I didn't find them as cult-y as you found them to be... but they were a little cult-y ;)
I will say chanting isn't a terrible idea, it is after all an integral part of Theravada Buddhism, for instance if you've ever heard the sattipathana sutta read aloud, I think anyone would find the line between chant and meditation blurry. Even chanting nam-myoho-renge-kyo as part of a daily ritual would be fine... I just wanted anyone reading this to know that the baggage that Doug and I experienced that came along with it isn't inextricably tied to chanting in general or even to that chant in particular. I'm reminded that there was a time in England when they were considering using another color for "stop" instead of red, and G.K. Chesterton wrote an article explaining that just because the Bolsheviks use the color red it doesn't mean they own the color. And so it is here, this chant just happened to be appropriated by this sect of Buddhism.
As far as faith goes, nothing wrong with that either, though you might generally think of faith as a heart attitude in the Buddhist context. The kind of faith in particular that chants like the sattipathana sutta inculcate is more of a faith in human potential, faith in the certainty that the Buddhist articulation of practice is the answer to human existence. Anyhow, if not the best-written, these were at least my thoughts on the issues raised in this vlog, these last two paragraphs being directed at whoever else might read this (e.g. practice suggestions) rather than yourself, Doug, if it isn't obvious. Thanks again for posting the vlog.
Thanks very much for your comments, Buckley. I don't have extensive experience with this sect because I exited the session at a run. But I am sure there are many good members there, and am prepared to believe it may not have been run in the most approachable or least cult-y manner. That said, it remains clear to me that their method of approaching the Buddha dhamma is not my own.
I'm on the same page with you re. chanting and faith, faith at least understood as "confidence" rather than e.g., blind faith. In the broader Insight tradition of Theravāda (of which much secular Buddhism is an offshoot) there isn't very much chanting, but the little that occurs I don't find problematic. Mainly I want to understand what I'm chanting and why I'm chanting that rather than something else. Chanting can also be a samatha practice, in which case I suppose understanding the meaning isn't so critical. But that sort of chanting I haven't seen in an Insight context.
buckley cloud Yeah chanting is practiced all over the Buddhist landscape, including Theravada. Just think that not so long ago not everybody could read and chanting was a basic way of learning and also was part of social life.
So you're ANOTHER SGI member who supposedly read the Lotus Sutra and never noticed that Chapter 25 instructs everyone to worship Bodhisattva Quan Yin (Kannon in Japanese)? How very strange. It's written very clearly. As you noted, the Pentecostals' "Prosperity Gospel" is alive and well in SGI (although draped in a kimono). Even Daisaku Ikeda himself has stated that the Soka Gakkai (parent organization of SGI) is a monotheistic religion, so that "non-theistic religion" stuff is simply dishonesty. The gohonzon is treated every bit like a god; Ikeda takes the place of Jesus; and The Universe is constantly watching over you and approving/disapproving of your every move. Stick with Theravada; no scholar within the last 150 years has taken the position that ANY of the Mahayana sutras (including the Lotus Sutra) were taught by Shakyamuni Buddha. The Mahayana suffer from the problem of being so late in the historical record; as with the old Catholic relics, the Lotus Sutra (at least) came with a backstory to explain why what was supposedly "Shakyamuni's Highest Teaching" didn't enter the historical record until ca. 200 CA. The Lotus Sutra was hidden away in the realm of the snake gods under the sea! Yeah, that's right! These beings are also called nagas or dragons. If you're familiar with the tale of the dragon king's daughter, she was one of these.
BTW you’re not remembering wrong, SGI is still that way
no its not, they are no longer apart of the priesthood
Uh I was in SGI from 2016-2018, I know it’s a cult lol
Nik V are you from India?
I am not
many years ago.
Thanks, Doug, appreciate the red flag, I have always appreciated that Buddha was absolutely clear in Buddha Dharma there are no secrets,. It is clearly wrong view to conflate focusing to achieve something material (or otherworldly) and the Buddha Dharma. As for getting involved with a Buddhist cult where you let someone else do your thinking and perhaps the heavy lifting for you, as someone once said, "In Buddhism, you have to wash your own brain." and as Buddha said, be an island. Thanks again go well, and to your own practice be true.
You're very welcome James. For all of this, it's a matter of personal preference. While we do in the final analysis have to "wash our own brain" as you say, some prefer a very tight guru relationship, others don't. The only real issue is to be sure that if you're signing up for a guru, that you've done the homework to be sure the guru has your best interests at heart.
This reminds me of the time (I believe they are called moonies?) tried to get me to go with them. They didn’t out right say they were moonies, but I later found out that what they were which is basically a cult. I don’t get that same vibe from the form of Buddhism you’re speaking of (I know who you are talking about), but the chanting for worldly things is the diver that opposite of what one thinks Buddhism is about. However, depending on who you’re asking, reciting that particular chant is supposed to bring forth your Buddha nature. So the ones saying you can have a new car or whatever are gravely mistaken.
Yes, thanks TO95. I did enjoy the chanting FWIW! 🙂
No it is SGI (Soka Gakkai International) a very BAD cult! I know, I am an ex-member from years ago!
At many (Chinese) Buddhist temples, the routine is to buy incense to light. When you buy the incense, you are given two crescent-shaped blocks colored red on one side and black on the other, you pray (or ask) and throw the blocks on the ground. Based one the blocks the priest gives you a rolled up paper with a response to your prayer. That and observe some very congregational holidays is all the local Buddhists do with respect to Buddhism. That's probably the majority, they go to the temple to ask for something.
Yes, I think that's completely normal in many traditional belief systems. Indeed, even in the early days people came to the Buddha looking for worldly ends.
Thanks a lot for sharing your explanation and experience
You're very welcome Bhante JN. Thanks for watching. 🙏
There are other Nichiren sects also that aren't well known and aren't cultlike. SGI is about money, leaders, deity of an older Japanese wealthy man. It used to be NSA which split in 1991. Over priests being the ones keeping the traditions of knowing the sutras and such but the SGI believed they had all the right sutras and historical knowledge. It was not a good relationship between the two.
🙏
I went to a buddhist group and the leader singled me out to put down my previous teachers. He also showed up mysteriously in court screaming street car of desire while I was trying to get a divorce from an abusive person. Besides the strange personal attacks I noticed his followers would only laugh when he spewed a profanity as if they reacted only when jostled. He would barely answer questions mostly dismissing them keeping control over every conversation. There were certain books in their bookstore they acted reluctant to sell (nothing any adult couldn't read in a college class.) He also did the touch thing which freaked me out. Never mind the imposing bliss! I got the heck out of that group but I still have nightmares!
Wow! Thanks for the info M.!
I place all bets it was SGI (Sokagakkai International).
There is weirdness all about. There is a way out of that weirdness and the way is eightfold.
Investigating and making sure the Buddha Dharma Wheel (Dharmachakra) is actually being used would be a prerequisite. ^^
That’s right Mael-Strom. Investigate for yourself and decide.
SGI members do not even know what the Three Treasures are (Sanga, Dharma, and Buddha), nor the Four Noble Truths, nor even the Eightfold Path! SGI in my most humble opinion is most definitely NOT genuine Buddhism! It's FAKE Buddhism! I ought to know, as I am an ex member from years ago!
Doug, I feel the same way you do about these cults. I discovered buddhism through your channel and fell in love with theravada buddhism and I've been practicing ever since, I also have a skeptical background, and I've also read Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins, and some weeks ago I was introduced to Nichiren Shoshu Buddhism (wich I believe is the cult you're referring to) and I felt really weird about it, I asked the same questions you did, got the same weird answers, and Idk, I think mahayana buddhism (specially nichiren) just doesn't work for me at all.
Yeah I think a good part of our journey is finding out which practices fit with us and which don't.
@@DougsDharma yeah, and you've been helping me through this journey. Thank you!
Actually Nichiren Shoshu was once the parent organisation, but they through the High Corts of Tokyo, SGI (Sokagakkai) was the one excummincate from NSA (Now NST)
Back in the 80's in NYC, SGI members used to approach people on the street at night, get them back to a meeting in a house, overwhelm them with stimuli and then pressure them to get into a car and whizz them off to the Culture Center near Union Square and have them officially convert that same night. Their pitch was like a salesman: "Just try it and see if it 'works'.". It was being marketed like magic, chant for things and you'll get them. The focus was on poor and disenfranchised people in the ghetto, who they then got to do free labor to run their magazine business which they were profiting from, by telling them that anything they did to further the cause of the organization would result in good karma for them. Not only was this exploitative, but often led single mothers to neglect their children. These were already struggling people who had to work a lot to take care of their children, and they convinced them that they need to spend whatever free time they had at organization activities and this would somehow wind up being for their childrens' good because it was a "good cause". So they had them up late into the night working for free on magazine subscriptions, while they got paid, and their children were either home alone or off in another room unsupervised and then had to ride subways and walk around the ghetto late at night to get home, exposing them to harm in many ways.
Wow, thanks for the info Ibrahim. Yes, I kind of imagine this could have been some of the same folks.
Typical of Sokagakkai!
Another outstanding video. Thanks for sharing.
Glad you enjoyed it!
From my 13 years living in Japan, I found that most Buddhism temples in Japan are business entities masquerading as religious groups to get money from tips from their fans, otherwise known as forced donations from tourists (whether foreign of domestic), and most priests are just professional funeral conductors and know very little about the many Buddhist Sutras. They are much like people who call themselves ministers in the US from every conceivable religion and denomination thereof, so they can give you what ever kind of bazaar wedding you are willing to pay for (whether it's Elvis singing to you in a drive-in chapel in lost wages or a Wicca may pole wedding in a park). Fortunately, the so-called priests in Japan are only profiting off of funerals and/or forced entry payments by tourists into their historical landmarks, not wedding. We can call this "funeral Buddhism" or "dead Buddhism." Then there is living Buddhism, which is the millions of people who go to meetings in Japan at people's homes and chant the wondrous law of the lotus blossom, which means they are affirming that they are the Buddhas of Absolute Freedom, which come into this world in the latter day of the law to masquerade as common mortals; those in Japan who are becoming extremely active in society to charge the world in a positive way. I see the former is very weird (I got really dizzy going to a few Shingon and Ritzu Funeral, where I had to pay a forced 100-plus dollar donation, because my co-worker's, who I hardly knew's mother, whom I never met, died, because she was a practicing fan of the businesses called Shingon and Ritzu) and the latter is very cool and I'm so glad to be a part of the latter and not the former. What is the right way to meditate is a value judgment and what to meditate for is also a value judgement. When Shakyumuni said in the lotus sutra, "In the beginning I made a great vow, to make all people equal to me with no distinctions," what I believe he meant by "no distinctions" is without making value judgments on what should or shouldn't lead a person to their chosen path of awakening. So where you might not see someone meditating (or chanting) to get a raise at work as 'the right way to do it," that may be the only thing that is going to lead a person to be reunited in the US with his/her family that is half-way on the other side of the planet, because that person chose to move back to the US, when his/her spouse and daughter, who are Japanese haven't yet decided to do so and are afraid in might not be financially feasible to do so. I find most white middle-class people (a majority being men) who never had to worry about starving to death or being homeless being drawn to mediation centers and to making value judgments of "What is the right reason to practice Buddhism." But truthfully, who are you to judge what is the right or wrong way or reason to chant or meditate? "Consciousness includes everything and judges nothing." -Gary Douglas
Thanks Major Tim, indeed there are many ways to practice and we all have to find what works best for ourselves!
MEANWHILE, SGI-USA is in the middle of their Annual May Contribution Campaign, where they exhort all the members to give 'til it hurts, assuring them that whatever they give will come back to them 10 fold. By magic! Even though their guru Ikeda stated plainly back in the 1960s that "As an eternal principle, the Soka Gakkai will never ask for even the tiniest contribution of offering from the members." And you don't get to have an SGI gohonzon unless you pony up $50 - but that's *different* somehow, isn't it, Tim? SGI is a filthy cult, everyone - steer clear of it.
So, Gary, traditional schools of Buddhism are "funeral Buddhism" or "dead Buddhism", eh? Well, the Soka Gakkai/SGI is "*COMMEMORATIVE* Buddhism" - the only events worth commemorating happened to old Japanese men in Japan. All the big celebrations in SGI are of something Ikeda did (or maybe Toda, rarely Makiguchi - they're both dead); the annual Women's Day in February commemorates Daisaku Ikeda's dumb WIFE'S BIRTHDAY. Oh, that's MUCH BETTER than ol' "funeral Buddhism", isn't it? To be constantly expected to remind themselves about and celebrate things that happened IN JAPAN to people they've never even MET - and *nothing* from their own country or their own history - that's "Living Buddhism", right? What about when the SG/SGI's "living mentor" is finally acknowledged to be dead? What will be special about him then? Just another "dead mentor" to toss onto the pile, eh? Daisaku Ikeda hasn't been seen in public or videotaped since April 2010, and all the still photos released by the Soka Gakkai show an alarmingly vacant, unresponsive husk whose eyes can't focus on the camera, who has lost the ability to smile, who just *sits* like some taxidermy. Seems you're a bit ignorant about what you're promoting there, Gary.
@@dorisfromage2349 not sure why you expect a free Gohonzon. They have to make it and ship it over from Japan.
@@dorisfromage2349 Hello well said .This man is not even thinking big he thinks he is big.😁🇯🇵🇯🇵🇯🇵👍
Nichiren Buddhism has Vajrayana roots! It shares the principle with Shingon Buddhism, Japanese Vajrayana, of attaining "Buddhahood in this very life", but instead of doing that through mudra, mantra, and mandala, the Shingon Path, Nichiren Buddhism advocates doing so through the practice of Odaimoku, arguably a mantra. Nichiren Shu is a legitimate, orthodox Buddhist school that, indeed, even recommends reading the Pali Canon
Thanks for the info!
You handled some possibly controversial topics here with grace. Sadhu. A good example of right speech which I can attempt to emulate.
Thanks Greg, I hope to have. Much appreciated.
Absolutely. Very diplomatic. I have to work on that. Great work.
🙏
Thank you, Doug!
My pleasure!
Thank you Doug for this video. I practiced SGI Nichiren Buddhism for 21 years. This past year I became saved and now I follow Jesus Christ.
I would very much love to share my experience with you regarding my involvement with SGI (I was a group leader and unit chief), why I left, and to share with you what exactly the Sanskrit characters are on the Gohonzon/ scroll.
What is the best way to reach you/ email you?
We all had our lessons to learn. It helps to always search first the historicity, life story, and works of the founder of any lineage or Buddhist sect. Nichiren's life events were questionable, so as his teachings on the Lotus Sutra which deviate from how Chih-i of the Tendai sect understood the Lotus sutra.
The same goes to SN Goenka who was not a monk who brought the Vipassana meditation to the West, which turned out to be a "Vipassana craze" toppled with guru worship of Goenka. As told in the Theravadin texts, Vipassana is not a technique but a quality of meditation twin with Samatha. Better to learn it from Theravadin monks who practice it, not just sitting Vipassana (as taught by Goenka), but completely involves standing and walking Vipassana as originally taught in the Theravadin tradition.
My first introduction to Buddhism was through SOKA GAKKAI, they told me I didn't have to know the meaning of the chanting, that all my problems would disappear, they had targets on how many people had to convert, always criticised other schools, finally didn't leave me alone for ages after I left.
Please please STAY AWAY from them.
I have been practising with a lovely Theravada group since,
Glad to hear you found the right home Stefano. Thanks.
I am another ex-member of SGI, I know them well (externally). By all legal definition Soka Gakkai International IS INDEED recognised as a cult. Even in Japan Sokagakkai is well discredited, same goes for the Komeito Party.
AMEN to that!
I did not realize that SGI and Nichiren Buddhism were not the same thing. Glad I found out that they are distinct. From what I have read they remind me of the "prosperity gospel" form of Christianity (I use that term lightly) which connects "divine blessings and financial success" as one in the same thing.
I had practiced Nichiren Buddhism since the 80's on and off, however, at the time that I grew the most in the practice I offered my home for meetings, and at the end of one of these meetings we would gather for conversation. I started speaking to a friend about something totally unrelated. I don't remember the topic but I had one of the chapter leaders come to me and tell me that I had to stop talking about this topic because it had nothing to do with Buddhism. And I had to remind him that he was in MY house and I was going to speak about anything I desired. Needless to say, I felt very disappointed and surprised. This was a leader and therefore someone I thought should be spiritually developed not to do something like that. Afterwards, I just had a series of confrontations where I felt very pressured into shakubuku. They wanted us to go to places and convince people to do this practice and I always thought that this was something very subjective for me and I didn't want to forecast and enlist others to do the same just to show an increase in the ranks. That was the end of my experience with that. Shortly after I stopped, but, I miss the way it made me feel. I did see a difference when I chanted. Since then I've been trying to substitute this experience with others and I can't find the proper Buddhism to practice in my life which has left me feeling sort of empty and a bit lost.
Thanks for telling us your story, hopefully you can find a good sangha in the future. 🙏
@@DougsDharma Thank you! I'm still searching! And I appreciate you speaking about Buddhism, it's been a life changer for me.
@John S. My thoughts were that it had good bones....sadly the essence was lost in translation.
Found this video very helpful thanks Doug, I have a friend who was recommending I do this nam-myoho-renge-kyo and I've been doing it and I am really starting to find it completely pointless because her explanation is they believe "by doing this chanting it awakens your inner Buddha" .... It really helped that you were able to explain your mind frame at the time, I found myself exploring esoteric spiritual things but really going about in order to get some kind of personal gain like get a better life path and success after experiencing failures in professional and personal life. I really think the big problem with cults and even well-intentioned motivational speakers is that mindset. I'm glad I stumbled upon you on my search this morning keep up the good work 🙏🏽
Yeah, thanks Jake! I think it's more important to use spiritual teachings as reminders for wisdom and ethics rather than as ways to get wealthy or something. There's nothing wrong with wealth unless we start craving it. 🙂
@@DougsDharma I think the apropos word is crave, it implies a lack within, a hunger that can never be satiated, I think that's what I found has been leading me away from all of these modern law of Attraction type teachings, I wish you luck spreading your message 🙏🏽👍🏽👍🏽
I've actually recently joined... I do have my doubts especially when they are using non buddha's words but Ikeda. I'm a bit skeptical..my parents want me to pursue traditional buddhism... it's a bit odd with IDs on members, always using Ikeda words not buddhism..and the chanting does throw me off..it's been stressing me out to leave.. I don't praise Ikeda but more so just the value and chanting for higher self vibration seeking more positive momentum.. can anyone help me with how I should leave and why I should?
Well that's a hard one Michelle. If as it sounds like you're wanting to leave the group then it's probably best you just go ahead and do so. But that decision has to be yours alone. I hope it works out for you. Let us know how it goes! 🙏
Hi! I'm going thru the same thought and the same organization..I've joined..almost 2 years ago but I don't really feel I should continue, no metion of Buddha or Nichiren himself, only Ikeda and the strong personality cult they seem to have is off-putting but at the same time I fell like "I don't want to leave Buddhism and I already left 2 other religions.." it's hard and I feel you!
Karla Santanach You can do it ! Save yourself ! And something to consider is: you don’t have to REPLACE one religion with another. You can not have one too! When we grow up and realize Santa and the tooth fairy aren’t real, we don’t replace them with anything new, we simply have our eyes opened and move forward in life. You can do the same with organized religion, dogma and blind faith :)
@Sharon Melendes that does raise red flags
Agreed. Read my recent post atop this thread.
If someone says "I am your teacher" or "You have to do this ceremony or practice"....turn the other way and run. It doesn't work that way. You have to find a reliable teacher, and then you have to vet them for a period, and they you.
Yes, good advice!
I'm so sad for your experience with SGI. I feel like your experience was definitely indicative of the organization in previous years. I do think you handled this subject very well though. I was expecting to be up in arms, and I am, but not at you and totally at the experience you had, how weird and awful!
I don't know about then, but nowadays the direct translations are in the back of the book and the base meanings of the chants are discussed anytime a new visitor is at a meeting.
Nice video though!
Thanks for your kind note KpopMamas, really the experience wasn’t so bad, just a kind of turnoff at the time for me. I’m sure all the folks there meant well. 🙂
Thanks for this wonderfull video🙏
My pleasure 😊
We can't ignore worldly concerns & be entirely otherworldly - we need to ensure our material needs are taken care of as without them we can't make any progress spiritually at all. Most people's concerns are mundane - so address all mundane concerns correctly - as buddha taught.
I was in my 20’s when introduced to SGI. I was already interested in Buddhism and meditation prior. I somehow has gotten in with a chanting group doing the lotus sutra in shingon and really enjoyed the group chanting. There were moments of resonance and harmonics where you could really feel the power of a group chant. Then I was invited to a larger group meeting and this is where I got my first taste of the culty cultish kookiness.
After the chant they started getting up one by one talking about all the material benefits they’ve received from chanting. It was very off putting. The group organizer came up after and asked me what I thought about it. I told him flat out that I felt that I was watching an infomercial and didn’t feel that it was real Buddhism. He was obviously a bit offended and said that he would tell the members to tone it down next time. I politely told him that there would not be a ‘next time’.
Same here, almost exact. One of the members said he had ‘chanted his AIDS away’.
I just began attending SGI in 2024 and what you've described I too found disturbing and materialistic. If someone was chanting for a heath reason, that seemed acceptable but not for material gains like money, cars, job promotions. I've found too many things about SGI that I don't like and find weird so I've stopped attending after only a few months.
I experienced my first meeting of an American Buddhist back in 1991 in Thailand years later I googled Buddhism and nam myoho renege kyo came up as one of the top searches. So I studied nichiren Buddhism for a while liked some of the stories of his exile etc but later learned that like the video here this is a divergence from the original message of the Buddha (Theravada Buddhism) and yes the chanting aspect I believe is to obtain merit in this life such as wealth etc…For me that is not the message of the Buddha ❤
Mindfulness has indeed in some circles been twisted into "spiritual materialism." For corporations in particular it has become a way of playing blame-the-victim with regard to their workers ("You're just not being mindful enough") as opposed to looking at the real causes of their stress like being overworked or underpaid. Sadly I wonder if the fact that corporate elites can use mindfulness in this way is part of the reason for the current widespread interest it- it is being pushed by those with the material means and motivations to push it inside almost every workplace. This is why meditation should not be taught in isolation, it must be taught in combination with wisdom and compassion (though I also hope that mindfulness will prove to be a Trojan horse inside those very corporations, making people more aware not less!).
Yes it certainly can be misused, but I think you're pointing to the fundamental feature of mindfulness which is that it will tend to make people more aware of what is actually going on.
I am a nicherin buddhist practitioner the experience you mention off chanting for material stuff was also a turn off or me also, its interesting your experience was indictcative of the older practice in the 1970s when I began my practice. I could fill volumes, as I have chanted for near 50 years. we center our practice around the teachings of the Lotus sutra and the lessons are deep and profound and come in layers.none the less I will continue to subscribe and listen and possibly I or other can resist your understanding of nicherin buddhist practice....
David
That’s fine David, I don’t want to discourage anyone from anything that they find helpful and beneficial. 🙏🙂
Hello my name is Paige/paigley, I am 15 years old girl from Thailand 🇹🇭. I’ve had a similar experience with the cult situation you were talking about. When I was around maybe 8 years old, I was being put in a cult by my mother(It’s a reallly long story and some of the things I had to go through was just weird) , turned out the whole thing was a fraud. And so now I feel depressed because I was being lied to and manipulated by. I don’t know how I can recover from this traumatic experience. 😢
My dad however did not believe this cult my mom was suggesting, and I was really young and didn’t understand anything so I just went with my mom. Then my mom suggested that I invited my friends to go to the cult temple and pray with, and I did.
(I hope that, this comment wasn’t offensive or anything thing. I just really need to get help.)
So sorry to hear it, but glad you realized what was going on and were able to leave. 🙏
very true , you must be very careful with what and with whom you engage with...that being said , these experiences can act as steppingstones for connecting with authentic paths. In fact , one may never have connected with these paths without the weird experiences . So, anyone who's been in a sect , as i have , can take some comfort in that .
🙏🙏
Yea, in the 90s and early 2000s the New Age movement coopted aspects of eastern philosophies to promote this whole idea that we can manifest what we want in our lives, especially materially. A Course in Miracles, "The Secret" et. al. The idea is/was to align ourselves energetically and spiritually with the Universe and thereby receive all the abundance that we want and deserve. In some ways, I agree with that. Our minds are powerful and we can observe how our thoughts lead to correlative results. But the implication is that if something bad happens or we don't get what we want or think we deserve that somehow we aren't in the right spiritual or mental space. Plus the emphasis on material things just corrupts the original teachings. In a way, I miss the spirituality that existed in the hay days of the New Age movement. Many people explored esoteric teachings along with standard ideas within Buddhism and other Eastern philosophies along with Nature based spirituality. I think overall it was a positive thing that is lacking in today's society. So I don't think we should judge it too harshley. Of course, there were some cultish elements within some of the New Age movement, but eventually the truth always comes out and the light is shown on the negative aspects, leaving one to assess one's own spiritual path in the context of the information presented.
As far as not knowing what the chant was saying, in a way they were correct. You don't really need to know the meaning of the syllables to receive benefit from chanting them. Of course, from our Western minds we want to know what it is that we are saying/chanting. And there is value to that. What if one disagrees with their meanings? You wouldn't want to chant that. But when it comes to chanting the Heart Sutra, for example, in Japanese, it's the very pronouncement of the syllables that begets benefit. The resonances created amongst the chanters has a calming, centering effect. There's also this idea of humility in submitting to chanting something that one does not know. But from our Western, discerning minds, we feel uncomfortable with that and the dangers involved. Ultimately, it's better to know, of course. Then one can have an intellectual understanding of what is being chanted as well as an experiential one. Understanding what the Heart Sutra actually says is truly profound and points to the ultimate essence of reality. It's mind blowing . . .
Thanks for your input, Stone. 🙏
Thanks for an interesting video. It was so much better to hear your voice without background music. If you decide you prefer to use music, you might consider keeping it at a very low volume. Please keep up your good work.
Thanks for sticking with it. I think there are maybe a couple more videos yet to come with background music that might be on the loud side. I'll be asking about that probably later this week on a Q&A. Then -- we'll see what the consensus is on the music, and go forward from there.
I often turn on my own background music ("Liquid Mind" on Google Music on shuffle) for videos like yours. It's nice to let us all control it.
Everyone seeking a new religious, spiritual, or even political group should watch this video. There are lots of groups that are not healthy in many ways and of many types. Other features of unhealthy groups I have seen include encouraging shunning of family and friends, requiring increasing amounts of time, the belief that the individual can not function without that group, or encouraging self deprecating behavior. Any belief, even the most harmless, can be sharpened into a weapon if that is the intent the way a spoon can be sharpened into a knife.
Yes, well said Amanda. We should all be wary of such teachers.
I joined the SGI a year ago, after knowing about it for 5 years, I am a very skeptical individual and do not believe it to be a cult. I don’t think you can draw comparisons between it and the Rajneesh cult or Scientology. Cults promote disconnection from family and local community, which has been quite the opposite of the intention of members I’ve interacted with who advocate for manifesting strong ties with family and community. Also, I’ve been explicitly told what gongyo and daimoku (the chanting) means and referred to books to further conduct independent study. Independent thought is encouraged within the SGI, not diminished. I don’t know why you were told to leave for NYC that night to be bestowed Gohonzon, I must admit, that’s odd. I practiced for 6 months before receiving mine and I was in no way forced, I was offered the opportunity and reassured I didn’t have to receive if I did not feel ready.
What’s more is that recently I’ve not really been attending meetings or doing all that much chanting, and I’m not made to feel guilty by leaders or members, I sometimes feel guilty myself - which comes from a Christian upbringing - but I’m continually reminded by members that the practice is not one of guilt and to move forward always from this moment onwards. I find SGI to be a very culturally rich collection of people with a tolerance for all religions and customs - it does not promote a sense of superiority and certainly doesn’t encourage only socialising/living with other members.
I really encourage more research into sgi and its roots and history before drawing conclusions.
I also find it to be more accessible than Theravada schools of Buddhism which often teach sexist sentiments like women cannot become fully enlightened - hence why you rarely see fully ordained female Buddhist nuns….
It’s also generally hierarchical- with priesthoods and lay persons. In the sgi everyone is equal. That is to say that I am even seen as an equal with the president - Daisaku Ikeda.
Also, the sgi has done a good job of taking the Buddha’s teachings and Nichiren’s teachings and applying them to today’s world. To see real progression into a peaceful society, we have to consider accessibility. If people (men) are disappearing into far away mountains or forests to practice austerity and celibacy, I’m not sure how this is helpful in the whole of humanity’s journey towards enlightenment. Not everyone wants to leave their family etc, and why should that mean they are less capable of enlightenment than those who do? Or have less buddhahood within them? It doesn’t! The sgi teaches that every individual has innate buddhahood and can achieve enlightenment - the practice is way to tap into that.
The stories you were hearing are simply faith-affirming experiences people have had after chanting. Chanting is about overcoming challenges and adversity, and yes sometimes that can result in a promotion at work or getting a new house for your family. But the goal isn’t an accumulation of wealth. It’s more about self actualisation. If someone in sgi is telling you to chant for a new TV or whatever, that may be that their in the life state of animality or hunger. And what they might find is they don’t get what they are chanting for or they do and when it doesn’t bring them happiness they’ll learn a valuable lesson.
Great, thanks so much for your input Rachelle. 🙏
@@rachellerfoster yes. The lesson is that the practice sucks, and is ineffective.
You got that one person that was the poison. I am sure he didn't last long!! They don't force anybody to stay or go. They try to help or spread the word for something they found beneficial.
Nothing wrong with being enthusiastic.
I practice at home more and attend whenever I can. It's different feeling doing it alone and in group. I believe you need both.
The practice has shown me its own power! It changed my life for the better.
Daisuke akeda has done so much for world peace and trying to preserve and teach. He has books if you want to read his thoughts on nichiren and the simplified version of the old texts, all positive things! He has done a lot for charity, printing and reprinting books, news letters, booklets, keeping the center running, etc. Why not raise money, all other religions do!!
I do keep all the priests in my prayers though, as without them preserving this practice it would never have made it to the US.
There are so many things in this world that are negative. This is not one of them. 💓 Always keep in mind that people have their own versions and you don't pick this religion, it picks you. No one forced me, it felt good, other people came and some went, So like attracts like. Thank you for reading my comment and have a blessed day. NMRK
🙏
So, I have a question. When I first started learning about Nichiren Buddhism, I ended up on the SGI site, because you practically can’t get away from it. I have requested a few times to be introduced to a local group, as the closest SGI center is over a 3 hour drive from where I live.
I have never had any luck with this. They send me a form letter that tells me to use the SGI locator, which I’ve obviously already done, and was how I found out that the closest center is over 3 hours away!
I would like to check it out, to see for myself what it’s all about. I have heard some negative things, so I’ve been wary. But you never know until you try.
Thank you so much for this video. I lost my best friend to this cult. She emotionally abused me, tried to spiritually bypass my mental health issues. When I went into therapy finally after some time I left gakkai. I understood the wrong that was happening there. And I thought how should I save my best friend. But then I realised she is now a part of it no longer a victim.
Sorry to hear that Srishti. I hope at least you are both happier now.
@@DougsDharma I think yes in our own space.
I choose to follow Pure Land Buddhism since I have a busy life fascinating video keep up the good work
Thanks Lewis! I hope it's not too busy, be well.
@@DougsDharma always the goal, anyway would love it if you did a video on Pure Land Buddhism at some point not as discussed as say Zen or Tibetan
I follow the Shingon sect of Buddhism, since am very much into mysticism and esoteric practices
@@Yomi2012 even the no1 worst here in Japan.
In Buddhism, you have to wash your own brain.
😄
Yeah getting Brainwashed
Yep!! It's called personal work and it's all good.
SGI / Nichiren Buddhism is what you make of it. If you need it as some sort of replacement for parents or obsessive sole driving force of every minute of every day, that’s cultish and not healthy. If it’s seen as an aspect of your life, a tool, inspiration, and guide, it’s great. The same holds true for absolutely any spiritual practice or path, although obviously there are truly evil cults like the one authored by the mediocre sci-fi writer! Wishing you well-stay healthy and best to you and yours.
Yes, well said. Best to you as well Greg.
As you no doubt know, the experience you describe happened back in the days when SGI and the Nichiren Shoshu priesthood were still together; the initiation rite you describe with the priest placing a gohonzon on your head is the give away for that. It's called gojukai; SGI doesn't do anything similar to it, but the members of the Nichiren Shoshu Temple still receive the precepts in that manner. As far as pressuring you to go from the introductory meeting to a temple like you describe, I've heard from members that things did kind of work that way back then.
Interesting, thanks!
Good, rational video, Doug. Thank you.
You’re very welcome Uptimind, thanks for watching!
I've had a long hard meditation over the comment about 'chant for money' and how it seems contradictory to buddhist philosophy..and what comes up for me is...in buddhism (like many religions) you work towards enlightenment and freeing yourself of your karma/suffering (the things which challenge you in life). Theres a great quote 'earthly desires are enlightenment'; which at face value looks mad...but its true...you need to search out and face your challenges and overcome them in order to become enlightened..so if you have a problem with money you need to face this challenge not shy away from it..so it seems Nicherin wasn't a monk looking after the rich and famous..and he wasn't promising you would be rich by chanting..he was merely saying face the things which challenge you as this is the only way to overcome them and really see the world/universe for what it truly is🙏
Thanks Derek. Yes, there's also a sense in which the Buddha did say that ethical living in accord with the dharma could bring worldly success.
I agree. You must take action . Cause and Effect
Thank heavens you took the right path!! Buddhism in my mind is what the Buddha himself preached and followed. I don't think he preached tantra which is a big part of Mahayana Buddhism. What is your opinion?
I was a member of SGI and even worked on their translation committee. It got too cultish, and I left. Now I am a Nichiren Shu priest.
Interesting! Thanks Philip. 🙏
Mike McCormic? If this is you? SHAME ON YOU wanting only to become a Shomyo Priest! You litterally DUMPED all your members in San Francisco and environs! Is this the correct way to seek priesthood? (Now, If this is not Mike, please disregard this answer).
@@nikolaospeterson2495 I know reverend McCormick.
Lotus sutra(myoho renge kyo) one of oldest mahayana sutras(200 bce) Similiar to uponishads "thou art that" Lets get out of our heads and follow our heart and do practice we are attracted to